1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. 4 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: On the side, we are two working parents who love 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. 6 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: out long term career goals. We want you to get 9 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. 10 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and sixty six, 11 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: airing in early September of twenty twenty two. I'm going 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: to be interviewing Laura Clark, who helps people apply for college. 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: So she's got some tips and recommendations, particularly for our 14 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: listeners who have middle school and high school aged children, 15 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: about how you should be thinking about the process, little 16 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: things you can be doing. I mean that I came 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: away from this interview with is just taking a few 18 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: minutes now, even though I don't have anyone applying to 19 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: college currently, to look at the common app A lot 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: of colleges use the common application these days, and if 21 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 1: the first time you're looking at it is when you're 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: actually filling it out, you may not have been thinking 23 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: about the things the information that you will need to 24 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: put on there in the future. So certainly, if you 25 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: have a child who wants to keep track of how 26 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: they are spending their time and doing leadership roles and 27 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: things like that, knowing what you'll need to fill out 28 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,039 Speaker 1: later could be really helpful as you are doing that. 29 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: So I enjoyed that we'll have a good interview with her. 30 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: But Sarah, it's been a while since we applied to college, 31 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: doesn't it. Yes, we thought we'd take a little trip 32 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: down memory lane, so to speak, especially since I don't 33 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 1: have much to add to this college discussion yet, as 34 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: my oldest is not even in middle school. Although I 35 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: still think it's interesting, so I think this episode will 36 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: appear to a wide variety of listeners. So personally, I 37 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 1: applied to seven schools. I remember taping up the names 38 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: of the school onto like I can kind of picture 39 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 1: it the logos from those paper things that used to 40 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: come in the mail on one of my shelves. And 41 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: I don't think I picked any school that truly could 42 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: be considered a safety school, but I must have had 43 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: a reasonable array because I got into five out of 44 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: the seven. I was a I had great SAT scores 45 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: and my activities were strong, mostly music related. But I 46 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: would say my grades were good but not perfect, and 47 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: that probably led to my couple of rejections. One of 48 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: them was from your alma mater. But I can't be 49 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: mad at you personally because you're a year ahead, so 50 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: you didn't like to steal my spot exactly. That's true, am. 51 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: I am one grade year ahead of Sarah, which is 52 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: funny because you know, once you're like an adult, it 53 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: just completely does not matter, like ooh, Sarah's behind me 54 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: in school. And I did do the quintessential college tour. 55 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: I can't remember it was with just my dad or 56 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: both of my parents. That's terrible, but anyway, I know 57 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: I went to like several New England schools, including Williams 58 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: and was where I did end up going, and I 59 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 1: thought it was awesome. And then I also got to 60 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: go back there for a second look after I was accepted, 61 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: and I was completely sold and that helped me make 62 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: my choice. And my other strong memory is that. Okay, 63 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: So I applied in nineteen ninety eight, which is my 64 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: graduation year. And it was in this transitional time when 65 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: people were still handwriting things, but then other things were 66 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: like typed and I felt like the savviest kind of 67 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: top students at my high school were like using a 68 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: word processor to fill in forms that were like paper forms, 69 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: and I was like, f it, I'm just going to 70 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: use neat handwriting and turn in my turn in my 71 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: handwritten forms. And I was very intimidated by the idea 72 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: that I wasn't like going the extra mile and lining 73 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: up the word processor exactly to like write in these lines. 74 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: But it worked out. Also my essays, my essays, I think, 75 00:03:54,400 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: were awful. Yeah, I remember using an electric type writer. 76 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: So yes, it was in that transitional time those of 77 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: us in what we call now the Oregon Trail generation 78 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: that we had computers, but they weren't doing all the 79 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: cool things that they do now. And I remember that 80 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: because it was a form. How do you typewrite on 81 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: a form? Will you use a typewriter because it can 82 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: fill in on the lines very easily, That's how you 83 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: adjusted up and down. And we had an electronic typewriter 84 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:27,480 Speaker 1: that you could race things quite easily, like it deleted things. 85 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,159 Speaker 1: In a way that was much better than you know, 86 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: the generation of devices before that, where you had to 87 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: use the white out and the correction tape and all 88 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: this stuff that our younger listeners are like, what on 89 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: earth are you talking about? But yeah, I remember actually 90 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: writing rough drafts of my essays, my college essays, in 91 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: the parking lot of Fizzoli's Italian restaurant, which is where 92 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: I worked the summer before my senior year. We got 93 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: two fifteen minutes smoke brakes and one thirty minute lunch 94 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: break in the course of an eight hour shift, and 95 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,679 Speaker 1: so I was writing, you know, these essays often working 96 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: on afts during my smoke breaks. I'm putting in quotes. 97 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: I wasn't smoking, obviously, but I was gonna say, did 98 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: the nicotine help? I was not smoking on my smoke breaks, 99 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: but you got a smoke break, so you know, I 100 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: would go write my essays. So I'm very curious how 101 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 1: many of my fellow Princeton students were writing essays in 102 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: the parking lot of their fast food employer on smoke breaks. 103 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: Probably not that many. I don't remember asking anyone to 104 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 1: edit them, which is funny that that's just the confidence 105 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: of youth there. Yeah, I wound up applying to seven 106 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: schools and I did get into them, but we had 107 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 1: this whole drama afterwards that my parents wanted me to 108 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: go elsewhere because tuition was going to be significantly cheaper elsewhere. Namely, 109 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: you know, my father taught at Notre Dame for a 110 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 1: great many years, and so we got probably like close 111 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: to full tuition discount by that point, or close to it, 112 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: and I wanted to go elsewhere, and I did not 113 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 1: want to stay in South Bend, Indiana. I even I 114 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: know Notre Dame is a wonderful institution, and so there's 115 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: a bit of a showdown over that. And what wound 116 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: up breaking the stalemate is that one of my uncles 117 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: offered to help with the tuition, so he wound up 118 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: helping for part of my freshman year. And then my 119 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: father actually got a higher professorship after that, so his 120 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: income went up a reasonable amount, so they were not 121 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: that it was easy to pay for. But I think 122 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: it was helpful for being able to do that. But 123 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's one of those things that now 124 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 1: as I'm living through this with my kids in the 125 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: next few years, is very important for me. To let 126 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: them go where they want to go. And I think 127 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: my husband and I may have a showdown about this 128 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: because he is a little bit less excited about brand 129 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: name colleges. I think, you know, Harvard, Princeton. He would 130 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: get his head around that. I think the part where 131 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: it would be harder is if it's in the middle, right, 132 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: like if it's not terribly selective or highbrow institution, and 133 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: that compare that to say, the honors college at Penn State, 134 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: which I'm sure would be great and would be a 135 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: much better bargain. My husband might be pushing for that, 136 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 1: So we'll see how this all pans out. But anyway, 137 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: I wound up going to Princeton. I'm with you. I'm 138 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: with you and letting my children I really, I think 139 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: both of us feel and I know this isn't like 140 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: universal and it's not necessarily right or wrong, but we 141 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: do feel the same way and that I hope to 142 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: let my kids go where they'd like to go. Yeah, 143 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: where they get in and where they choose. Although we 144 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: may do something like if a child does choose a 145 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: less expensive place, offer to pay for some portion of 146 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: graduate or professional schools should they choose that path later on, 147 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: so that like, you know, there's a little bit of 148 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: cost balance they might go on in their head because 149 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: I don't think we can afford to bankroll both college 150 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: and like med school should our kids choose to all 151 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: do both of those things. So I guess there might 152 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: be a little bit of push pull there, But otherwise 153 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: I just hope they get to go where they want 154 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: to go, and I know that's a lucky thing to 155 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: try to plan for. It's also for us, like I mean, 156 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: we've been saving from since Annibal was a baby, and 157 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: it's not an insignificant portion that I see go out 158 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: of wine up every month still, so something that we're 159 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: planning ahead for. Yeah, and my husband's also made the 160 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: point with, you know, as he talks about with the kids, 161 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: like if you think you're going to graduate school, you 162 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: might be better served by, you know, taking a different 163 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: approach than to undergrad I mean not even just that 164 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 1: it would be cheaper, but that you are a different 165 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 1: candidate coming out of as the top of you know, 166 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: a different like a big state honors college or something 167 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: versus being one of I don't know, it's just a 168 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: different sort of game that you're playing. But you know, 169 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: if you're only going to undergrad, which is what I 170 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: wound up doing, then it does matter a great deal 171 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: more which school I think you go to. And yeah, 172 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: Princeton has opened a ton of doors for me, not 173 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: that other places wouldn't have as well, but I've heard 174 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: it's even harder to get in to all these plays. Yeah, 175 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten into five of seven today. 176 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: I don't think my grades were good enough. I think 177 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: there's like generational reasons for that, just in terms of 178 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: sheer numbers of humans. And then there are other complicated 179 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: reasons as well, but I think population wise we kind 180 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: of lucked out. Yeah, well population was, but they're also 181 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: I mean things like the common application. I mean, it's 182 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 1: a wonderful innovation, but on the other hand, it makes 183 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: it easier to apply to a higher number of schools, 184 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: and so then that winds up happening as well. But yeah, 185 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 1: looking at the numbers, I mean, you know, Princeton has 186 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: gone down from I think it was something like these 187 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:35,360 Speaker 1: are not the right numbers, but it would have been 188 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: like twelve percent acceptance when I was going in like 189 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: six percent now or something like that. I Mean, it's 190 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: just really ridiculous. So we shall see how this all 191 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:43,599 Speaker 1: winds up working out as we go through it in 192 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,719 Speaker 1: the next few years. But Laura Clark has a lot 193 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: of great things for people to think about, so give 194 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,679 Speaker 1: this episode a listen. Well, Sarah and I are delighted 195 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: to welcome Laura Clark of Clark College Insight to the program. Laura, 196 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 1: can you introduce yourself to our listeners? Sure? I should 197 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: also say I feel a little starstruck. I have a 198 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: longtime listener of the show, so I'm delighted to be 199 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: here as a guest. Thank you for having me. My 200 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: name is Laura Clark. My husband and I live outside Washington, 201 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: d C. With a three year old girl and an 202 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 1: eight month old boy who may wake up during this session. 203 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: That's the best of both worlds. Is completely here for that. 204 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: So I've listened to your advice about childcare, so our 205 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,040 Speaker 1: truly excellent nanny is here standing by in case awesome, 206 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: in case he wakes up. Yes, Mike, my two year 207 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: old is currently napping too, so we'll see It's quote 208 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 1: you just feel a naptime hustle. Naptime hustle is what 209 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: we are both doing. Yeah, and tell us a little 210 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: bit about your college counseling experience here. Sure. So what 211 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: distinguishes Clark College Insight, which is the small college admision 212 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: consultancy I own, is that we are super empirical. So 213 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: we don't rely on the common wisdom or on what 214 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: colleges say about themselves to understand colleges incentives and behavior. Rather, 215 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: we look sort of we peak behind the curtain to 216 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: the extent possible to figure out what colleges incentives are 217 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: because we believe that their behavior and decision making flows 218 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: from those incentives. So how do we find out what 219 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: those incentives are? As I said, rather than believing what 220 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: colleges say about themselves, we turn to sort of the 221 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: information that they've had to cough up. And that information 222 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: comes from largely from two lawsuits which are actually about 223 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 1: to go to the Supreme Court brought by the Students 224 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: for Fair Admission, which is a group that brought lawsuits 225 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: against Harvard and UNC. And in the course of those lawsuits, 226 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: those colleges have had to turn over data and documents, 227 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: internal documents for the court to see. Also, And this 228 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: is like particularly interesting to me because I used to 229 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: work in this industry. Both colleges and SFFA hired expert witnesses. 230 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,439 Speaker 1: In this case, they all hired economists to do econometric 231 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: analysis of the data that colleges had to turn over 232 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: to reveal the relative weights of different factors that colleges 233 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: consider in admissions. So what I do, and what I 234 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: have done, is review hundreds and hundreds of pages of 235 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 1: expert testimony to glean lessons about how colleges make decisions, 236 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: and then I help families apply that knowledge to give 237 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: their kids the best chance possible. So, I mean, one 238 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: of the fascinating things, and I think that you want 239 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: to make people aware of too, is that you know, 240 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: there are these highly selective schools, but there are also 241 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: a lot of schools that aren't, you know, completely selective. 242 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: And so if your goal is that just you know, 243 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: your kid gets a good college education, you don't really 244 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: need to even you don't necessarily have to worry about 245 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: this as much as you might say, yeah, absolutely. And 246 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: I think there is such a frenzy about college admissions 247 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: now that I think some people feel kind of guilty 248 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: if they're not aiming for Harvard. And what I always 249 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: tell my clients is that not striving for the most 250 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: selective colleges is a completely valid and humane choice. Like 251 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: if your family looks at you know, the path ahead 252 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: of them and wise the trade offs and thinks, you know, 253 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: that's just not really for us. That is a completely 254 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: valid choice. And I feel sometimes my clients feel a 255 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: little guilty telling me that it's like, well, that's totally 256 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: a question that is up to each family, and so 257 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: I want to not that they need my permission, but 258 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: I want to give your listeners permission to work with 259 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: their children to figure out a set of goals that 260 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: works for their values. Priorities, yeah, their family priorities. And 261 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: then I know that this is primarily a decision about 262 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: personal priorities, not really a place for evidence, But I'm 263 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 1: kind of an evidence junkie, So I'm going to give 264 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: you a little anyway and say that just having the 265 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: moxie to apply to selective schools says something about your 266 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: kid's abilities. And I'm not just making this claim. This 267 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 1: is something that Stacy Dale and Alan Krueger found in 268 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: a twenty fourteen paper in which man, I just read, 269 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: is that too nerdy? Laura? Thank you. They said that 270 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,320 Speaker 1: the average SAT score of the highest ranked school that 271 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: rejected a student is a much stronger predictor of that 272 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 1: student's subsequent earnings than the average SAT score of the 273 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: school that the student actually attended. So really, just having 274 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: the moxie to apply some more selective really says something 275 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: about your kid and means that his or her qualities 276 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: will stand him in good stead for the rest of 277 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: is it her life? That sounds good, very reassuring time. 278 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, exactly. And I think another thing that 279 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: you know when you and I had talked before, and 280 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people don't necessarily think about. 281 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: One of the things that's come out is that colleges 282 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: want a well rounded student body. But that doesn't mean 283 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: that each student is well rounded, correct, absolutely, so colleges 284 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: are looking for well read rounded classes rather than well 285 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: rounded students, and that has some implications for how kids 286 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: should think about their extracurricular activities. And again, there is 287 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 1: an implicit clause in everything I'm going to say today, 288 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: which is, if your kid is trying to optimize for 289 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 1: college admissions, then dot dot dot. So if your kid 290 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: decides I love orchestra, and I love yearbook, and I 291 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: love playing basketball, and I want to do all those things, great, 292 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: he or she should do that. But if a family 293 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 1: has made the decision that they're kind of going to 294 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: plan a high school career with an eye for optimizing chances, 295 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: then that knowledge that a school is trying to create 296 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,040 Speaker 1: a well rounded class rather than seek to admit well 297 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: rounded students has some implications for what kids should do, 298 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: namely that they should try to choose something they enjoy 299 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: and specialize in it. And I always hope that also 300 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: freeze kids from the incorrect assumption that they do need 301 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: to sign up for a laundry list of activities that 302 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: they don't actually enjoy. So if your kid does not 303 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: want to do the yearbook in the orchestra and the 304 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: basketball team, that's okay. In fact, that's you know, if 305 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: he or she can specialize in something, especially something that's 306 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: a little bit off the beaten track, that is probably 307 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: even better for college admissions chances. Awesome. Well, we're going 308 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: to take a real quick ad break and then we're 309 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: going to be back with more from Laura Clark about 310 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: applying to college. So we are back talking with Laura 311 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: Clark of Clark College Insight about applying for college. So 312 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: a lot of our listeners, I mean, we have people 313 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: with older children as well, but let's say you know, 314 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: people with kids around my kid's age, Sarah's kids age, 315 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: you know, more of the early teen preteen area. You're 316 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: thinking about this looking forward? What should people start to 317 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 1: be thinking about as they are looking at high school 318 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:10,120 Speaker 1: and looking at coursework that their kids might need to do. Sure, 319 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: and so I'll take this opportunity if I may to 320 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: say one of the two fundamental principles that guides my 321 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: work with clients, and that is to start early. And 322 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: why do we want to start early? The first is 323 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: because lead time matters in some spheres high school success, 324 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: and again, high school success with an eye to optimizing 325 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: for college admissions is path dependent. For example, the math 326 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: sequence in many school districts is pretty by the book. 327 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: You're not going to be able to skip ahead a level. 328 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: So that path dependence means that it's good to cast 329 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: a careful eye out over your kid's high school curriculum 330 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: starting in eighth or ninth grade. The other benefit to 331 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,959 Speaker 1: starting early is that it avoids crunches. So if your 332 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: kid is going to be studying for the AIS and 333 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: preparing for the school play and preparing for the SATs 334 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: at the same time. That's a recipe for a lot 335 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 1: of misery. But if we think ahead and create a 336 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:13,400 Speaker 1: workback plan, then we're able to avoid those kind of crunches, 337 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: which just minimizes the stress and unhappiness that your kids face. 338 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: And that's what we as parents want. So I do 339 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: commend to parents of kids in eighth grade or so 340 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: a couple key steps. The first thing to do is 341 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: to start saving examples of your kids graded school work 342 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: in core classes what some school departments call solids, so English, science, math, 343 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: social studies, or history and foreign language. And the goal 344 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: of hanging on to these things is to equip school 345 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 1: counselor later on with some information about your kid's interests 346 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: and past successes when that school counselor is writing a 347 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: letter of recommendation for colleges. The next thing to do 348 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: is to start keeping a record of a kid's a wars, accomplishments, hobbies, extracurriculars, volunteering, 349 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: basically anything outside of the classroom. And if you track 350 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: the beginning and end dates for each of those activities, 351 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: the number of hours worked in a week, the number 352 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: of weeks per year, and positions held. Then when it 353 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: comes to fill in that section of a common app 354 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: It'll be a breeze. You will have that information at 355 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: your fingertips and be confident that is accurate, rather than 356 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: trying to think back three years in the past and think, well, 357 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: was I the treasurer or the vice president? Just is 358 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 1: a way to make life easy for yourself in the future. 359 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: This one is a bit mercenary, but if you or 360 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: your spouse or potentially your parents or your in laws 361 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: attended colleges that give a preference to the children of alumni, 362 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: it makes sense to start getting involved now, so you 363 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: can sign up to interview applicants, volunteer in other ways 364 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: for the alumni association, and if your family budget permits, 365 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: maybe think about write in a few checks just to 366 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: show the school we're engaged, we're excited to be involved, 367 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: and the implicit message there is if you let my 368 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: kid in, then we will continue to be So turning 369 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 1: back back to academic enrichment and away from more mercenary things, 370 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 1: it makes sense to sit down with your kid and 371 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: think about what language he or she would like to 372 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: focus on for the next four years. The most selective 373 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: schools want to see four years of the same language. 374 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: So if your kid thinks, hey, maybe i'll try Latin, 375 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: and then it turns out that he hates Latin and 376 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,640 Speaker 1: wants to switch midway through junior year, that might foreclose 377 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: some options. So it makes sense to do a little 378 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: thinking ahead of time about what language would be best. 379 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: Back to the topic of sort of casting a weather 380 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: eye over what could be your kid's high school curriculum. 381 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: It makes sense to take a look at the ap 382 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: and ime classes that are available at the high school 383 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: your kid will attend. And again we want to focus 384 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: here on the solids, so English, Maths, Science, social studies, 385 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 1: foreign language, and with your child, think which of these 386 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: classes interest you? In which of them do you think 387 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: you could reasonably get an A or a B. And then, 388 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,919 Speaker 1: if you can glean this from the school's website, figure 389 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: out are there prerequisites for these classes? And this is 390 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: particularly important for the math sequence, which usually is quite 391 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: path dependent. And then is there a way that your 392 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: kid could get some of those prerequisites out of the 393 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: way in summer school. Just something to think about for 394 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: the goal of avoiding crunches. It makes sense to think 395 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: about a way to distribute those advanced classes throughout high school. 396 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: So useful information to know is does my child's high 397 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: school allow freshmen to take AP and IB classes? If so, 398 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 1: are there some you could allocate to that year? Are 399 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: there some you can allocate to sophomore year or junior year. 400 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 1: The goal here, again is to minimize stress and unhappiness 401 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: for your kid. We don't want them to be, you know, 402 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 1: crammed into a bunch of AP classes and one year 403 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,399 Speaker 1: and exhausted. It's also good to front load classes to 404 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: the extent possible. I always encourage my clients to have 405 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: their applications ready for the early Decision or Early action deadlines. 406 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: They don't necessarily need to apply according to those deadlines, 407 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: but at least they'll have the option if they have 408 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: an eye for those deadlines. So if we front load, 409 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: then we can show colleges an appealing transcript by the 410 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: time the beginning of senior year rolls around. The last 411 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: thing to do on the academic front is to set 412 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: up a meeting, if possible, with the school counselor to 413 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: discuss this plan with him or her. This accomplishes a 414 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: few things, and make sure that you haven't missed some 415 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: information that the school counselor will know and it also 416 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: starts to establish a relationship with that person. Usually the 417 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 1: school counselor will write one of the letters of recommendation 418 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: that will eventually go to a school, So we want 419 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,360 Speaker 1: him or her to have a good idea of your 420 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: kid and his or her strengths. The last thing to 421 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: do is to do a lot a little bit of 422 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: thinking about extracurriculars. So again with an eye to finding 423 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 1: ways for your kid to spend time doing his or 424 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: her existing natural interests, nothing forced or unnatural. I think, 425 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: are there activities available at the school that meet those 426 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 1: interests and meet a couple other criteria that I recommend 427 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: my clients think about. If there is a club, fantastic, 428 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: If there's not, you could discuss with your child whether 429 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: or not that would be something that he or she 430 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: would start. Could he start the cooking club? For instance? 431 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: Another thing to think about is whether or not you 432 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: could get the ball rolling on one of those activities 433 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: that will begin in the school year by signing your 434 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: kid up for a related summer activity. And that's it. 435 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: That's my checklist for eighth grade families. Yeah, So with that, 436 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: I mean I wonder if we could pivot a little 437 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: bit into thinking about summers, because of course this is 438 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: a time that kids can use to demonstrate interest in something. 439 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean, should we be thinking about mapping this out 440 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: for the four years? I mean just like looking around 441 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: for programs, like should they be taking classes most of 442 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: the time, should they be working? Should they be you know, 443 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, doing summer stock theater. I mean, there's 444 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: just a million things you could do. Absolutely How should 445 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: you approach this absolutely well, the first thing to do 446 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: is to think about what your kid enjoys. I don't 447 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: think that it makes sense to do just summer school 448 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: for two reasons. The first is just because you want 449 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,360 Speaker 1: your kid or assuming that your child does not naturally 450 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: just want to be enrolled in summer school all the time, 451 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: Maybe he or she does, in which case you've got 452 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: a future Nobel Prize win around your hands and you 453 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: don't need any advice from me. But assuming that your 454 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: kid doesn't want to just do summer school in the summers, 455 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: it makes sense to you know, get a little enjoyment 456 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,479 Speaker 1: out of what is also kind of the last period 457 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: of childhood before adult responsibilities start to set in. Also again, 458 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: putting on our mercenary glasses, lifting up the lens of 459 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 1: college's self interest and thinking about how to plan a 460 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,120 Speaker 1: high school career with that in mind. Academic achievement only 461 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: gets a kid in the good pile. Once he or 462 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: she is in the good pile, there needs to be 463 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: something else that differentiates him or her from the rest 464 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: of the pack. So focusing exclusively on summer school, unfortunately, 465 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 1: I don't think is a great choice because it's not 466 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: going to distinguish your kid from the rest of the 467 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: pack in that way. Well, let's talk about distinguishing though, 468 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: because this is I mean, this is something we've actually 469 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: talked with like personal brand building experts on this podcast before, 470 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: and I think adults might think about this some with them, 471 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: Like if you are trying to make a case for 472 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: a big promotion, like it helps to have some project 473 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 1: that you've spearheaded that you are showing to your you know, 474 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: the higher ups, that shows that you are capable of X, Y, 475 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: and Z that you know is unique and didn't exist before. Right, 476 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: And I assume that there's some element with that with 477 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: kids too, Right, Like you said, you get in the 478 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,360 Speaker 1: good pile, right, and then you need something to distinguish yourself. 479 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 1: Is that something that distinguishes people often a project of 480 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: some variety that has built their personal brand. I love that. 481 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 1: Parallel to personal brand building, that's great. Yes, it definitely 482 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: could be a project. I think the best thing to 483 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: get yourself out of the good pile is some kind 484 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: of extracurricular involvement, as you said, and I do have 485 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 1: this list of criteria which we can table and maybe 486 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: come back to if you're interested about. If your family 487 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: is trying to optimize for college admissions, what are a 488 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: list of criteria to assess when choosing an extracurricular activity. 489 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: And definitely one of those something that I think would 490 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: take a lot of those boxes would be some kind 491 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,480 Speaker 1: of passion project. In particular, something like that would demonstrate 492 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: a kid's capacity for leadership, would show that he or 493 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 1: she is a self starter, has a good sense of initiative, 494 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: And those are criteria that often show up in college's 495 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: personal scores. So some schools have nearly all schools have 496 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 1: academic scores and extracurricular scores. So an admissions reader will 497 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,480 Speaker 1: pick up your kid's packet, say okay, I give this 498 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,679 Speaker 1: a kid a one, and this ranking the academic ranking 499 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: another score for the extracurricular ranking, and some schools, and 500 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: we know that Harvard is among them, also have a 501 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: personal ranking, and so demonstrating initiative and leadership would be 502 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: a great way to push up your score in that field. 503 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: And I think having a passion project is one such thing. 504 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: Maybe you could just run through the quick criteria, then 505 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: absolutely good extra curric I mean, otherously, you kid has 506 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: to be interested in it. But as you were saying exactly, 507 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: that's the first one is to choose something you genuinely like. 508 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: And that is in part to enjoy the last part 509 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: of childhood, and it's in part so that your kid 510 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: doesn't wash out. So if your kid says, I'm going to, 511 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, study Latin as my passion project. I'm going 512 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: to spend my summers reading ancient texts, but then it 513 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: turns out that he or she hates Latin, that's not 514 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: going to be an extracurricular activity with the sticking power 515 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 1: that we want. We want kids to choose something they 516 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: like so they stick with it. We also want our 517 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: kids to choose something that they are good at so 518 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: they can excel. So if your kid is not a 519 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: great Latin scholar, for example, choosing Latin. Even if that's 520 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: something here she enjoys, might not be a great choice 521 00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: because the kid won't show the track record of a 522 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: good performance in that field that a college admissions officer 523 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,239 Speaker 1: would want to see. Leadership is another important criterion, and 524 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: this is something to think about with lead time too. 525 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 1: So if a particular club at your kids' high school 526 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: only allows seniors to hold leadership roles, those might not 527 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: be the best options, because again, we want to have 528 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: an appealing package ready at the beginning of senior year 529 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: to make those early deadlines. So something that allows your 530 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: kid to have a leadership role by junior year is optimal. 531 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: We want our kids to stand out. So admissions officers 532 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: are in a huge time crunch. We know from a 533 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: survey called the State of College Admission, which the National 534 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: Association of College Admissions Counselors puts out. NACAC, which is 535 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: a somewhat inelegant acronym. NACAC does this survey, and we 536 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: know from the survey that admissions officers at some schools 537 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: are reading more than a thousand applications every year. So 538 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: if your kid does something that is a little bit unorthodox, 539 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: a little bit different from what many high schoolers are doing. 540 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: That's one way to stand out in that extremely time 541 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: pressed person's mind, and that's something that again will may 542 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: lift a kid out of the good pile into the 543 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: admit pile. We also want to encourage our kids to 544 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: take on activities that show intellectual curiosity. I mentioned that 545 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 1: colleges have a couple of these scores, the personal score, 546 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: the extracurricular score, the academic score. Intellectual curiosity shows up 547 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: often in a couple of these. And again, if we 548 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: pick up our magnifying glass and peer through it, just 549 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: to focus on a college's self interest, we know that 550 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: admissions offices essentially work for the faculty, and the faculty 551 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: you want to teach kids who are curious and engaged. 552 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: So kids who are intellectually curious seem like they're the 553 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: kind of kids who are going to be a joy 554 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: to teach, that the faculty will enjoy teaching, and then 555 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: those faculty will stick around at that college longer. So 556 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: again something that I think has both intrinsic value cultivating 557 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: intellectual curiosity in our children, but also from a more 558 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: mercenary standpoint, a college can look at a kid who 559 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: demonstrates this characteristic and think, okay, great, this kid is 560 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: going to help me in my quest to attract and 561 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: retrain high quality faculty. Yeah, you need the kid doing 562 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: Latin who's actually translating his own you know, Latin plays 563 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: into English and then getting them performed and whateverwhere else 564 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: it could be a yeah, well, getting high school kids 565 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: to do this might be an interesting thing. Let's talk 566 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: about tests, though, because this is obviously a subject that 567 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: a lot of people are wondering. You know where this stands? 568 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: Right now? That you know, you may have great grades, 569 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: you might have interesting you know, academic extracurricular stuff. Where 570 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: do the standardized tests come in with all of this? Sure? 571 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: And I think sometimes this is a fraud topic because 572 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: talking about standardized testing sort of summons up our own 573 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: seventeen year old feelings about standardized tests. I was not 574 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: thrilled before I took the SAT, and I'm sure that 575 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: many of your listeners weren't either. It's sort of a 576 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,760 Speaker 1: rite of passage, but not a super pleasant one. Many 577 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: colleges have changed their testing policies. Part of that was 578 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 1: driven by COVID because the college board was not always 579 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: offering sittings of the SATs such that kids could submit 580 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: their scores. And then separately, there's some skepticism about whether 581 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: or not test scores measure something that is useful for 582 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: colleges to know how predictive they are of college success. 583 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: So there's some sort of political controversy about whether or 584 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: not colleges should continue to use them. And consequently, some 585 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: colleges that put in abeyance their requirement to submit test 586 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: scores have now made that more of a permanent policy, 587 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: not necessarily a forever policy, but they say, oh, okay, 588 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: we're going to continue this trial of not requiring applicants 589 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: to submit test scores. The other important thing to mention 590 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: here is that the UC system, which is very important 591 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: competition for basically all the colleges in the country, is 592 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: test blind. So that means even if you take the 593 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: test and submit your scores you see admissions readers won't 594 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: read them, so there's that sort of competitive element too. However, 595 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: I counsel my clients to take the test, and that 596 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: is because even at schools that are test optional, which 597 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 1: means you can take the test or not submit the 598 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 1: scores are not. Kids who take the test and submit 599 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: their scores tend to be admitted at higher rates, and 600 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: I can mention a few examples of that. So at 601 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: pen for example, in twenty twenty, score submitters were admitted 602 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,560 Speaker 1: at seven percent, So seven percent of students who submitted 603 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: scores were admitted, and the admission rate for non submitters 604 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: was four percent. At Colgate those numbers were twenty five 605 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: and twelve percent. At UVA those numbers were twenty six 606 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: and fourteen percent. Emery those numbers were twenty eight and 607 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: thirteen percent. So in many cases, the students who take 608 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: the test and submit their scores have maybe as much 609 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: as double the chances of getting in. And of course 610 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: there may be a lurking variable there that the kids 611 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: who do better on the test are likely to submit it. 612 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: But my counter to that argument is, let's say you 613 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: did get You do have the potential to get a 614 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: great score. You don't want a college to think to 615 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: attribute that lurking variable to you. So what should kids 616 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 1: be doing though? If they are going to take it? 617 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: Are there things they should be doing to propose Absolutely 618 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: for the essay? Sure, at definitely, And I know I 619 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: will talk about this at the end of the episode, 620 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: but on my website I offer for free timeline of 621 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: tasks that families can think about doing, and those tasks 622 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 1: fall into the season of each year of high school. 623 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: So the testing schedule I recommend is available on my website. 624 00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,720 Speaker 1: I can talk about it a little bit now. Another 625 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: principle that I want to emphasize is not putting too 626 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:27,000 Speaker 1: much weight on testing, and that is because, and this 627 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: research finding runs counter to the popular imagination. Test prep 628 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: raises scores about fifty points, that's about it, and retaking 629 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 1: the test a few times can raise scores between thirty 630 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: and sixty points. So those are definitely steps that it 631 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 1: makes sense to take. There's no reason to leave those 632 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 1: points on the table. But I don't think it makes 633 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: sense for parents to push their kids to do exhausting, 634 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: miserable test prep because it's probably not going to raise 635 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: scores that much, and also because it's going to make 636 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: your kids miss. So why make your kid miserable for 637 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: something that is not going to have that much of 638 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: a benefit anyways. And again, if we put on our 639 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: mercenary glasses here all the time that your kid spends 640 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: and I don't mean your kid, Laura, forgive me, I 641 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: feel like I'm not trying to load all of these 642 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: tasks onto your children, one's child. All the time that 643 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 1: one's child spends on test prep that may not have 644 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: the anticipated benefit, is time that he or she is 645 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 1: not spending doing something that could have more of a payoff. 646 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: Taking that additional ap class, working on an independent research 647 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: project with a teacher who then can write a glowing 648 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: letter of recommendation, becoming the president of whatever club it 649 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: is that he or she is interested in. So I 650 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: don't think that the juice is worth the squeeze for 651 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: very rigorous, intensive test prep. I will make a quick 652 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: plug here for an online seminar I offer which your 653 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,280 Speaker 1: listeners can sign up for on my website, which offers 654 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,879 Speaker 1: a few more details about what forms of test prep 655 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: are most effective. So there's actually a lot of research 656 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: on this. As you can imagine a data set that 657 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: renews itself every year with a fresh batch of high schoolers, 658 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: which is automatically quantitative, it's already in numbers. Is something 659 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: that's very appealing for education researchers. So of all of 660 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: the elements of college admissions, testing is the one for 661 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: which we have the most robust evidence based. So I 662 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: offer some findings from that research on my website, And 663 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 1: you know, people also need to think about they're going 664 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 1: to need letters of recommendation. So that's probably something that 665 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,760 Speaker 1: you want to be thinking about as you're going into 666 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: your high school career. You know who you're forming relationships with, 667 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: who the teachers that might do that. Absolutely, absolutely, So 668 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,479 Speaker 1: it makes sense to stand out in a good way 669 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: in your classes, and that's particularly the case in sophomore 670 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,600 Speaker 1: and junior year. And then something else that it makes 671 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: sense to do again if we think about starting early 672 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: and optimizing our lead time, is to ask teachers for 673 00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: those letters right when the school year ends, so their 674 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,640 Speaker 1: experience with you is fresh. You know, they remember that 675 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: excellent presentation you did, and also so they don't move 676 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: on to another school and then you lose them exactly. 677 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: All right, well, this is all very cool. Lots of 678 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: things to think about here, anything else you wanted to 679 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 1: cover real quick? You know that I'm missed out on here. 680 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: Oh sure, so I guess I mentioned the second of 681 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: our sort of foundational principles, and that is to start early, 682 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: to allow yourself lead time, an adequate workback plan, and 683 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: to minimize stress and task crunches. The first foundational principle 684 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: of my work is that college's priorities, not our kids' merits, 685 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: drive college admissions. And I think that is kind of 686 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 1: a painful truth to realize, because we want to think 687 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,840 Speaker 1: about colleges as sort of immune to market pressures. We 688 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: want to think about them as these sort of idyllic 689 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: places where young people can be come more fully themselves. 690 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,280 Speaker 1: But of course colleges are, you know, acting in a market. 691 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: They're competing with each other, They're trying to optimize for, 692 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, certain goals that they have. So what I 693 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: try to do is align my clients applications and high 694 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: school careers with what colleges are after. So that way 695 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: kids are spending their time anytime that is away from, 696 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: you know, enjoying the sort of golden last years of childhood, 697 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: they know that they're spending that time really effectively to 698 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 1: get the most bang for every hour. Excellent, Well, Laura, 699 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 1: we always end with a love of the week, which is, 700 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: you know, something that is really cool right now? I 701 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,240 Speaker 1: can go first? Sure, So that to you again. At 702 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: my son, actually, my oldest son went to a pre 703 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: college program on a summer on a college campus this 704 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: past summer and he had a really good time, and 705 00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,840 Speaker 1: I think it was a good experience for him because 706 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: you know, partly it's just about getting independence, sure like 707 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: that you can you know, many of us live in 708 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 1: suburbs that aren't infinitely walkable, so it's like you're not 709 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: going out all is doing all yourself, and when you're 710 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 1: on a college campus it is, and you sort of 711 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 1: start thinking that way. So, you know, even just the 712 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: idea of like how much you know you have to 713 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: budget for Starbucks if you're not going to run out 714 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: of money was a good thing. So, you know, we 715 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,919 Speaker 1: haven't figured out all our summers for the future because 716 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: he just finished a freshman year, is going to sophomore year. 717 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: But I think it was a good, you know, fun 718 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: thing that we found for this summer. So I'm glad 719 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: that happened. That's great. How about you. That's a much 720 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: like a much more important love of the week than 721 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: what I was going to mention. I want to hear 722 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:38,320 Speaker 1: your mine normally I say normally I say coffee, So 723 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: don't worry about it. Mine is a lot more frivolous 724 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: and also totally unrelated to excellent moral formation or education 725 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: or anything. So mine is this citrus juicer that I bought. 726 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: It's from a brand. It's called Chef n c hef 727 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: apostrophe n chef and I don't know. Okay, anyways, it's 728 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,200 Speaker 1: a very effective citrus juicer. Someone recommended it online and 729 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: I bought it, and it's really like induces me to 730 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:07,080 Speaker 1: juice citrus. I've been making a lot of key lime 731 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: pies just because it's such an effective juice limes. Oh, 732 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, that's my level of the week. 733 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: Is this is this citrus juicer? All right, well check 734 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:21,160 Speaker 1: out the chiff the cheffin citrus jucer. Yeah. And so Laura, 735 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,360 Speaker 1: why don't you tell our listeners where people can find you, 736 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 1: because I know you said you have the webinar and 737 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: various things that people might want to check out. Yes, absolutely, 738 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: So you can sign up for those webinars, which I 739 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 1: mentioned on my website, which is Clark Collegeinsight dot com. 740 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 1: And that's Clark with an E at the end, so 741 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:42,319 Speaker 1: like imagine yield Clark with an E at the end. 742 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: So you can sign up there for either one on 743 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,399 Speaker 1: one sessions or for these seminars. I know everyone's sick 744 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,320 Speaker 1: of zoom, but I do think it's a pretty effective 745 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: way to convey some of this information. So I run 746 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: those seminars four nights a week, and I'm offering a 747 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: discount for listeners of the show. If you use the 748 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: code best of you can get a fifteen percent discount 749 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: on those seminars. So I hope to see some of 750 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: you on zoom sounds good. Well, thanks so much for 751 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 1: joining us, Laura. We really appreciate it. Oh, thank you 752 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,839 Speaker 1: for having me. All right, well that was great. We 753 00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 1: learned a lot about applying to college in that interview 754 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: there with Laura Clark. So the question for this episode 755 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 1: comes from a listener who says that she and her 756 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: husband originally wanted three children. They both have two siblings 757 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 1: and love having slightly bigger families, but after her first 758 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,839 Speaker 1: I felt like the second would be such a challenge. 759 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,279 Speaker 1: Then she had a second, and the second was so 760 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,520 Speaker 1: much easier. So she is actually thinking of jumping the 761 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: gun and having the third one, saying, I know there 762 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,279 Speaker 1: are no guarantees on whether the new baby will be 763 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, easier, more challenging, but at least she's not 764 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:51,280 Speaker 1: a first time mom anymore, so she sort of understands 765 00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: what can go on. She says, we'd like to start, 766 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: you know, having more big kids stuff. You know, they 767 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: want to move on to that stage pretty soon, which 768 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: would be the argument for having a third kid relatively close. 769 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: So she thinks, what do we think. Should she go 770 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: ahead and dive in fairly soon and this is when 771 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: she has a four month old baby, or should she 772 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: try to have the same three years apart. Sarah, what 773 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: do you think? I thought this was a really fun question, 774 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,319 Speaker 1: and I feel like the stock answer is like, there's 775 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: no right answer. They both have their benefits. But I 776 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: actually think if you have the inkling that you feel 777 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: ready now, that you might as well go for it 778 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: sooner rather than later. I mean, maybe not when you 779 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: have a four month old, but maybe, you know, keeping 780 00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: them less than two years apart, just because there are 781 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: times when I wish that Cameron and Genevieve were a 782 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 1: little bit closer together. There's some efficiency need to be gained, 783 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: and you know, I love efficiency, like more time with 784 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,359 Speaker 1: kids at the same schools. For example, I definitely get 785 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: frustrated when we're playing a family game and I know 786 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: I could have such a nice time with Annabelle and Cameron, 787 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: but then I have this like adorable but totally convenient 788 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: little kaboos who like messes it up, and then I 789 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 1: feel like by the time she's old enough to play 790 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: the game, I might have teenagers who like don't want 791 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: to play the game, and that applies to many other 792 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: types of activities. I love what I have. I was 793 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: not ready to have a third the way you are describing. 794 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 1: Until I was ready to have a third. It didn't 795 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: actually take me that long to have Jenevie, but I 796 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: just wasn't mentally in that space. So I was different 797 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: from you, and how it panned out was more based 798 00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,279 Speaker 1: on how I felt at the time. But since that 799 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like it's as much as a factor for you, 800 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 1: I say, jump in, Hey, sounds good. Yeah. No, I'm 801 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: always amazed with people have babies sort of crazy close together. 802 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: This one person I follow on Twitter was talking about 803 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: rocking her baby to sleep and her in utero baby 804 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: kept kicking the other baby as she was trying to 805 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: rack them to sleep. Was like, yep, well, when you 806 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:48,520 Speaker 1: get them that close, they do that, but there's some 807 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: obvious efficiencies and then you will get to the big 808 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: kid years earlier. If you have desired to have three, 809 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: if they are spread out over say eight years, you 810 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: were going to have a longer time to get that 811 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,240 Speaker 1: big kid stage than if they are spread out over 812 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,279 Speaker 1: four or five, which is what it looks like you 813 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: are considering with this. So yeah, I mean, if you're 814 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: writing this question, like if you're looking for permission to 815 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,520 Speaker 1: go ahead and have another baby, I mean, we're we 816 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:16,560 Speaker 1: love babies, so go for it. My closest age gap 817 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,080 Speaker 1: is about two years, and the first three are within 818 00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:20,760 Speaker 1: four and a half years, and then we have quite 819 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,120 Speaker 1: longer spans of time. The five year gap between Alex 820 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: and Henry is really something to be plunged back into 821 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: all of it. So you know, if you're planning out 822 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,640 Speaker 1: life perfectly, probably it would be better to have them 823 00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: closer together. But you know you can't plan out life perfectly, 824 00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:38,560 Speaker 1: and this is what wound up happening, so you know, 825 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,879 Speaker 1: it is what it is. But if you know that 826 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: three is the number you want and you are ready 827 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,320 Speaker 1: to sort of move them all into the big kids stage, 828 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: then yeah, it sounds like if she's asking for permission, 829 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,040 Speaker 1: we we're excited for her. Not that you should ever 830 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:54,960 Speaker 1: ask us for permission on whether you should have a 831 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: baby or not. We are just two people who are podcasting. 832 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: You should do whatever you want that goes for everyone anyway. 833 00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: This has been best of both worlds. We've been talking 834 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,520 Speaker 1: with Laura Clark about strategies for applying to college. We 835 00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 1: will be back next week with more on making work 836 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,480 Speaker 1: and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find 837 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,920 Speaker 1: me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the 838 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 1: Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura 839 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,880 Speaker 1: at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best 840 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for 841 00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: more on making work and life work together.