WEBVTT - How Police Lineups Work 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.560 Welcome to Stuff you should know from how Stuff Works 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:14.000 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:17.680 There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry out there outside 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.200 the fish bowl, and also there's guest producer Noel in 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:25.239 our pal Ben. But yeah, I'm in the room this time. Man, Yeah, 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:29.040 on the mike. Thanks for having us. Uh, this is 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:30.800 way better than that time you have me on the 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.279 April Fools episode. Well, I'm glad you brought that up 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:36.240 because may remember Ben from that I think it was 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:42.000 two thirteen or fifteen something, ungodly time ago. It's my replacement. Yeah, 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:44.040 it was the April Fools joke for the three D 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:47.520 printing episode. So this is your second time on the show. Yeah, 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:50.040 the Internet shredgy Ben was it were? They were like 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:52.760 a target of abuse. I want to thank everybody for 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.840 the very polite emails and as as we could tell, thankfully, 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.200 Chuck is fine. They yeah, they took it easy on him. 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:00.920 We have very nice listeners. Something. And then know, this 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.440 might be the first time you're ever speaking on the podcast, 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:05.760 even though you've guess produced it like a million times. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:07.520 I think I may have mumbled something in the background 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:14.960 the time. Really, so we're having you two on let's cut, 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.560 let's get down a business because you two have a 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.920 podcast together, right, I know you also are on Mini 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.120 Crushed movie Crush. Yeah, you're also in real World's colliding 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.440 right now, Right, there's a lot I'm going over them all. 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:31.920 You're on stuff they don't want you to know. But 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.680 you two, Ben and Nol have come together and made 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:38.840 ridiculous history, which isn't awesome. Oh yeah, that's right. We're 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:43.080 just missing that. God I'm starting to sweat. But you 0:01:43.080 --> 0:01:46.440 guys are on ridiculous history together. We are tell us 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:54.440 about that. So history is full of these cartoonish bizarre events, 0:01:54.720 --> 0:02:00.600 often not covered in your typical history class. Sounds for Mimilier, right, 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:08.480 because for one reason or another, people thought that's no 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:12.480 way that didn't really happen. The first recorded instance of 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.120 a mooning did not result in the death of hundreds 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:19.240 of people, is surely not? Surely not? But it did, 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.520 And surely the US government did not have a plan 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.960 to shoot a nuclear missile at the moon, right, That 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:27.760 was just a Mr Show sketch, Sure not, but it 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.320 also was It was kind of parallel thinking. Is the 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:36.040 Mr show sketch happened before this story became declassified Project 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:41.120 day one nine. So our continuing mission with Ridiculous History, 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.840 not to sound too star trekky about it, is to 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:49.040 find those moments, the bizarre people, places, and things throughout 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:52.440 the span of human civilization that at least crack the 0:02:52.520 --> 0:02:55.799 both of us up on a continual basis. And sometimes 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.040 we do have to stop recording just for a second 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:04.960 because we're so tickled. Yeah wow, that's that's actually high qualities, 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:09.799 mainly because we tickle each other physically. That's cheating, Ben, 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:12.760 You're making it sound so serious. It's actually a lot 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.320 of fun. It's a fun show, right Yeah, Okay, Yeah, 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:18.720 I mean I'm giving been a hard time, but yeah, 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.919 that's definitely like we touch on from time to time. 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.920 It'll it'll go into a heavier territory. Like, for example, 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.760 we did an episode about how women in Kansas in 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:31.560 the nineteen twenties were imprisoned in labor camps for having STDs. 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:35.880 Well that certainly falls under ridiculous, not exactly fun or 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.880 funny right now, ridiculous, But so it's it's it's all 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:41.680 of those things. Some of them are you know, crack 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.040 you up hilarious moments like Napoleon Bonaparte getting attacked by 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:49.320 bunnies or you know, the aforementioned stt labor camps or 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.640 racist special Olympics that were held here in the States. 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:58.680 And we're a complete uh well tomorrow phrase we use 0:03:58.720 --> 0:04:02.119 on the show each ship show. So so wait a minute, 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.160 I think you are like, you need to name the 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:11.080 state that hosted that. It was St. Louis. Yeah. St Louis, 0:04:11.600 --> 0:04:14.680 And it's because the World's Fair was happening in St. 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.360 Louis and they were going to have it in Chicago. 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:19.359 But the people hosting the World's Fair said, if you 0:04:19.400 --> 0:04:21.920 don't do your Olympics as part of the World's Fair, 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:23.520 we're going to totally blow you out of the water 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.080 with how awesome our World's Fair is. And no one's 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.400 gonna come to your Olympics. Scared them in the early 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.599 days of like, you know, not the earliest days of 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.760 the Olympics, when they brought it back like in them, 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:35.200 you know, it was not ancient room. It was not 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:39.159 in fact ancient Rome. And it was also it was 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.640 not a good example of the Olympics either because the 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:47.600 white supremacists who were in charge of the whole shebang 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.440 decided that this would be the perfect time to prove 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:56.000 their cockamamie ideas of like eugenic ideas of kind of 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.239 like white superiority and like they would have indigenous people 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:01.880 competing in these Olympic events, but of course they didn't 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.280 teach them how to, you know, do the events, so 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:06.680 they didn't just automatically know how to pull vault or 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.960 throw a javelin or whatever. So and one supremacists can 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:13.800 ruin anything. Anything they put their hands on, they really 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:17.120 can just turns to poop. Yeah, we are doing an 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:20.360 episode on flash events later, so stay tuned for there. So, 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:23.279 so before we give everything away, you guys tell everyone 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:26.800 where they can find ridiculous history and when. You can 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:31.719 find ridiculous history at our website. No, it's ridiculous history show, 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:36.480 I think, so the website. It's definitely keep prepared for this. 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:41.800 I've got steck of notes right here. Yeah, you can 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:44.200 find us an Apple podcast. You find us on Spotify, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:46.640 you can find us wherever you find your favorite shows, 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.280 like stuff you should know or stuff they don't want 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.640 you to know, or I should I list the entire 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.520 pantheon of all the shows we have. It's too many 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:58.280 at this point, but but yes, you can find us 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:02.599 in all of those places. We also have a community page, 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:05.880 uh that we're really proud of and really happy with, 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:10.000 called ridiculous Historians on Facebook. Taking a total cue from 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:14.320 the cisk army nice. Well, First of all, thank you 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:16.800 for all of the flattery that you've been heaping on 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:19.120 us for the last few minutes as much appreciated, but 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:21.839 also thank you for coming by. Appreciate it, guys, Thank 0:06:21.880 --> 0:06:25.599 you guys for having so much. Let's do this every week. Yeah, 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:27.560 that might be been much. Let me check the sketch. 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:34.640 I gotta tell you, I love those guys, but I'm 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.880 glad to get out of that that new studio box. 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.880 It's like a Fema trailer. Man. It's for malde hyde 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.279 wafting off slowly poisoning us. It is still offcasting. It 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:48.279 feels like, yeah, big time. It's in my hair, which 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.760 is now falling out. We're in bad shape. Well before, 0:06:52.000 --> 0:06:53.880 I like what you're wearing. By the way, thank you. 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.600 I spilled a tremendous amount of coffee on myself and 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:58.440 luckily I had a bunch of samples of our new 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:02.400 T shirt. Yeah, and this is not just a plug. Everyone. 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:06.200 Josh is literally wearing a Lewis the Child Skeptic T 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.080 shirt from the Stuff you Should Know store because they 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.560 sent us every shirt. I'm like, oh, great, to the 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.440 guy who has a hundred T shirts, here's twenty more. 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:18.360 But they are pretty cool. I'm pretty happy with this. 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:22.559 Like the size of it. Look at the size, perfect size. 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:24.880 It's not so big that it wraps around and gets 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.800 all mangled by my love handles. But it's also not 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.880 so small that it looks like, you know, caved in chest. 0:07:33.160 --> 0:07:35.880 You know what I mean. I didn't remember that reference 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:40.000 though I didn't neither like they listened to the Pie 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:42.800 Piper episode. Oh there you go. It sounds like a 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.920 youth thing, yeah, Josh, But it was just an offhanded 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:47.800 comment I made. Now it's a T shirt I'm wearing, 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.080 which is I love. It makes a pretty great time 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.400 to be alive. By the way, I need to give 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:57.560 a shout out to Brittney Shift. Um, Britney Shift sent 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:02.000 this idea to us. Okay, great, And the reason you 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:04.520 know we don't often take well that's not true. We 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.320 kind of keep a kitty of listeners suggestions, but we 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:11.200 don't often like do one the next week and then 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:15.200 shout out the person. But I thought we had fully 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.720 exhausted our Crime and Punishment series. So I was delighted 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.720 that Britney Shifts sent this in and I was like, 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:26.240 why haven't we done police lineup? I don't know, it's 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.480 a great question. Was just sitting there waiting. Yep. The 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.480 only other one that's left is what kind of shoes 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:41.480 detectives wear? That that's the last one? Is this? Yeah, 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:44.400 that's gum shoe or crepe sold I think do you 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.040 knew that? Yeah? But I don't know how it relates 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.240 to cops. I guess they wore those. They are super comfortable. 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:55.480 Cops are always walking around walking, yeah you know, but 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:59.360 sometimes when they're walking, they're actually out on the street 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:03.720 looking for people who resemble a suspect that they have 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:08.000 in the jail house. And they say, hey, you come 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:10.800 on over here, how would you like to make ten bucks? 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:15.560 And the person says exactly how copper and the cops says, 0:09:16.080 --> 0:09:18.839 by standing in is what we call a filler in 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:23.040 a police or they do like Comber Simpson and when 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:24.920 they were like a boat raffle that they said he 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:26.439 had to come down to the police station. Yeah, you 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:30.360 want a boat? Yeah, and then they beat him merciless 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:34.760 for like parking unpaid parking tickets. Also shout out to 0:09:34.840 --> 0:09:38.520 Beth at Schuster, who wrote to this article in the 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:43.840 n i J Journal the National Institute of Justice, I believe, so, 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:47.640 is that right? Yeah, they're pretty much committed to keeping 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:50.240 people from being wrongly convicted, so I would guess the 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.120 J stance for justice. Yeah, and this is this is 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:55.520 a good start, and we had some other stuff we 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:59.280 added to it. But thank you Ms Schuster, Yeah for 0:09:59.320 --> 0:10:03.560 your work up. Well, um, I already led into the 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.160 episode and it didn't take so let me try again. 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:10.240 This n i J article you sent calls out a 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:15.160 dude named Jerry Miller, who back was two years old, 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:19.160 I believe. And Jerry Miller had a particularly bad day 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.840 when he was arrested and he was charged with robbing, kidnapping, 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:28.480 and raping a woman, and he got convicted. He was 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.959 convicted because two people, two eye witnesses, saw him in 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:36.080 the lineup picked him out, and then later at trial 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.040 the victim said, maybe that's him, maybe it's not, but 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:42.880 who cares. There's two eye witnesses that picked the show 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:47.920 out of a lineup. He's done. He did twenty four 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:51.319 years in prison, and you may notice from the tone 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:55.120 that I'm using here he was wrongfully convicted. He actually 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.800 got out of prison and was living life re leased 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:02.400 on parole, wearing an ankle bracelet a monitor constantly as 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:08.360 a registered sex offender. And then finally I think, um, oh, 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:11.520 I'm not quite sure two thousand seven. In two thousand seven, 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.160 as part of the Innocence Project, which we've done an 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:22.160 episode on with um, yeah, that lady what is her name? Oh, Haulleen, 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:29.679 but it's definitely not Paulazon. Thank you, Jerry. Yeah, I 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.120 wanted to say Pauli Shore so bad. I just knew 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:36.880 it was wrong, but we didn't. Right, We did an 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:41.640 Innocence Project episode, and under the Innocence Project, Jerry Miller 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:47.160 was exonerated through DNA evidence. He incontrovertibly did not do 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:50.400 this and lost twenty four years of his life because 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.839 of flawed eyewitness testimony. Yeah, and so you know, this 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:59.040 is all about police lineups and more about I mean, 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.120 we'll tell you how they work in a general sense, 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:05.840 but this sort of more about how you know, it's 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.280 such an imperfect system, but sort of The takeaway from 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.520 all of this that we're about to go over with 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.720 all the studies and the trying different things is kind 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:18.400 of like, you know, it's an imperfect system and we 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:21.120 can try and craft it the best way we can, 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:26.280 but human memory is imperfect. Identifying people in lineups is imperfect, 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:28.880 and we're just it's kind of the best we got 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:30.920 right now. Right Well, a lot of people are like, 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:36.080 get rid of eyewitness testimony really altogether, yes, all together. 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:41.000 Humans suck at eyewitness testimony. And there's a lot of 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.480 reasons why. It's not like people are out there like 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.920 I want to have me a bad guy, show me 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:47.920 a lineup. I'm gonna pick one of those guys out. 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.040 They're not doing that. They're they're subject to basically the 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:56.719 way our brains are wired. We don't walk around videotaping 0:12:56.800 --> 0:13:00.360 everything that we see. Yeah, you know, we get sillly 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:06.160 bombarded with sensory information and under normal circumstances, you know, 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.160 you see a stranger on the street, you just see 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:10.600 there's another human. I've identified him as not a threat 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.600 and keep walking by it. If that person turned out 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:18.959 to be accused of a crime, um or or perpetrated 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.600 a crime, and you were brought in to say was 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.880 this the person you saw? Your brain is going to 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.760 try to reconstruct what little pieces of memory it formed 0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.240 of that person. And there's a lot of things, a 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.480 lot of factors that are involved that can make that 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:39.400 really difficult task even harder. Yeah. Like I am someone 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:45.199 who has told myself, Chuck, pay attention. Like, if you're 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.880 ever in a situation like, pay attention, try and collect 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.480 yourself and try and remember a few really good details 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.439 about the car or the person. So like, this is 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.640 on my mind. And I actually had a situation when 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.040 I lived now I happened to me where I had 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:06.960 to go through a police lineup and I failed. Oh really, 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.640 was the suspect there? No? Well no, here's here's the 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:12.760 quick version is I wasn't in a hit and run 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.720 this lady. Uh, these two lady, these two younger girls, 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:20.840 they were probably teenagers, hit me from behind in my car. 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.320 I stopped my car, starting to get out and they 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.280 take off. So it's a hit and run. I chase them, 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:30.040 which is you should not do. Were you shooting into 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.040 the air and again to slow down trying to shoot 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:36.160 out their tires? No, but I did chase him. Because 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.360 I was so mad, and your adrenaline just shoots through 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.160 the roof when something like that happens, so immediately you're 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.040 just not yourself and like recording details. So I was 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:47.440 trying to catch up to get a license plate. I 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:49.880 saw that they went down the street that I knew 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:54.520 was a dead end. Um, it wasn't a cul de sect, 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.520 but it functioned to like a cul de sact. So 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.520 I stopped where I was, got out of the car. 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.800 Sure enough, twenty later they come halling but back towards me, 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:08.080 and uh, the look on their faces was like you know, oh, snap, 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.680 there's the guy. And they just sped right past me. 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.760 And I saw their faces as they sped past me 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:19.320 in their car. The cops found the car, found the people, 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:22.320 and they're like, we didn't do that, and so who 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.080 are these girls? These teenagers? Well that's the long and 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:27.640 short of it. Is all you have to do and 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.240 something like that. I said, didn't do it, and if 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:33.480 I can't pick you out, then you get away. And 0:15:33.640 --> 0:15:37.480 they showed me pictures of like, you know, these were 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.720 like teenage young teenage Hispanic women. They showed me probably 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.920 probably fifteen pictures and said, can you identify them. I 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.240 was like, no, it was a month ago. They sped 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:52.600 past me for a second, like I couldn't even hazard 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.680 a guess, and I didn't want to do that. You know, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.520 well that's very sensible of you. Yeah, I just didn't 0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.000 want to take a stab at it. So I was like, no, 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:01.280 I have no idea, and they're basically like, sorry, they 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.040 said they didn't do it. Wow. It's like, but you 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:06.080 have the car and it's damaged, and like none of 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.200 that matters. They're like not not if you can't identify 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:09.880 I mean I could see that. I think would be like, oh, yeah, 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.560 that happened some other times in some other hit and runs. 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.600 I mean, but yeah. The long story short though, is 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:20.400 I'm someone who has tried to tell myself to react 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:24.480 in the right ways, and I couldn't tell them much 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.560 beyond like the color of the car and sort of 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:31.120 would it looked like because you were seeing red? Because right, 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.800 that's our that our bodies are not primed to form memories. 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.720 It's not where our where our energy goes. It's more 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.240 like getting away or shooting out the tires of a 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:43.080 car that just hit and ran. Right, But what you 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:47.120 did with that lineup is the other side of the coin. 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:52.320 The other problem with lineups is or eyewitness testimony from lineups, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.920 is that sometimes people pick out people who are innocent 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.640 and other times people fail to pick out the people 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:02.600 who are actually the perpetrators. So it's like you said, 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:06.080 they're very they're very flaw it's as flawed system. The 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.359 problem is is the wrong people can go to jail 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.359 and the people who actually did it can get away 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.200 with it. So that's an extremely flawed system. And when 0:17:15.280 --> 0:17:21.040 something that um important is on the table, then um, 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:23.119 it needs to be fixed. And there's a lot of 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.040 people looking into how it can be fixed, but we're 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.720 not there yet by any stretch. No, and here's the 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:33.919 stat you were talking about the DNA exoneration. Uh, of 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:40.320 the first three exonerations in the US were wrongfully convicted 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.760 because of eyewitness testimony and police lineups. Say it again, 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:48.720 seventy of the first hundred and eighty three. So like 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:53.720 the Innocence Project, it's basically like a pilot study to 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:58.840 show through DNA exoneration all the ways that we wrongfully 0:17:58.920 --> 0:18:02.400 convict people. And what is coming to the to the 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.520 front is eyewitness testimony. Yeah, and that the basis of 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.640 that is the police lineup right. And one other thing 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.439 that's that's problematic with the eyewitness testimony is if you 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.120 want to wow a jury, bring out an eyewitness who 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.160 seems totally sure that what they saw or that they 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:23.080 saw the person they're pointing to and the defendant's table, yeah, 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.879 or that that dramatic moment. It's like a movie trope. 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:28.760 Now you know, is the person in this room right? 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:32.960 Let the records show that witness is pointing at the defendant, right. Yeah. 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.399 So the problem is it has a huge impact, but 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:41.160 it's also really crutty wit, really crutty um evidence. There's 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:43.680 this guy here, he had a great quote. He says 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:49.720 that um eyewitness testimony is a very unusual, complex kind 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:54.160 of trace evidence, and it's difficult to recover, easy to contaminate, 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.439 and very hard to handle. And that just there's no 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:01.199 better description of eyewitness testimony. If I was ever in 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:05.560 court and someone identified me from the witness stand, I 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:07.960 would do that thing where you look at behind you 0:19:08.640 --> 0:19:10.679 when they pointed at you, just be like, I think 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.399 they're talking behind me, and they would say no, and 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.240 they would point again, and I would move a little 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.040 bit more I'd be like, this is this witness is 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.280 clearly disturbed, and then if that, if that didn't work, 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.160 you would escalate to I'm rubber and your glue. Yeah, 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.600 that usually works, right. So there's a couple of other 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:33.719 things that makes eyewitness testimony problematic, Chuck Um. In addition 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:39.879 to not being like human video recorders, there are human VCRs. 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.240 There are, Um, there are circumstances, especially surrounding a crime, 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.840 that can make it really difficult to remember. If you're 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.920 in a fight or flight situation, you're not forming memories. 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:54.359 If there's a weapon, um, there are people tend to 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.920 focus on the weapon. Um. You me was mugged once 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.280 and the opposite happened to her. She remember what the 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:03.639 person looked like, but she didn't even remember that there 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:05.720 was a weapon. And her friends were like, yeah, there 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:08.040 was a gun. Interesting, Yeah, and she went to a 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.560 lineup and like pick the guy out and bullet proof. 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.439 So she is so she's like, take your gun and 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:15.920 shove it that I'm not even going to recognize it. No, 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:17.879 but that makes sense. If someone pulls a gun on 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.520 you or has a switchblade or some other kind of 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:24.760 creepy weapon, the human instinct is to to focus your 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:27.399 attention on that thing pointed at you. And apparently people 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:32.359 can really describe the weapon, right, But you're focusing on 0:20:32.400 --> 0:20:34.680 the weapon, you're not focused on the person who's holding 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.040 the weapon. Typically that helps a little bit, but not 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:40.280 as much as the face. Right. And then another problem 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:44.840 is if you are um, say uh an hispanic dude, 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:47.639 and you're a witness to a crime and it's a 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:50.879 white guy who's the perpetrator, you're going to have a 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:55.400 tremendous amount of difficulty picking that white guy out, as 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:57.879 sad as it is to say, from a lineup of 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.360 other white guys, because I would this testimony that crosses 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:07.199 race or ethnicities is known to be very unreliable because 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.879 it's just more difficult for somebody of an ethnicity or 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:15.919 a race to to separate or identify people of another 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.480 ethnicity or race. Yeah, and I don't think it's the 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.760 case where people are like, oh, white people look the 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:26.080 same to me. It's just weird brain science, right, You 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:29.120 just have a harder time. From way back when we 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:33.160 were basically Tuck Tuck and Tuk Tuk lived with fifteen 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.600 other people that look just like him because they'd all 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.520 been in breeding for generations and generations, and they had 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:42.000 to be on the lookout for another group of people 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:45.440 who've been inbreeding for generations and generations that wanted their 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:50.040 jackfruit tree that they live by. What's jack fruit? O? 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.000 That word jack fruit, the big huge thing, the big 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:59.160 huge one. It actually makes a killer barbecue vehicle shredded 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:04.000 like shredded vegan standing. Oh okay, it's really good, gotcha, gotcha? 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:06.639 All right, let's take a break and we'll talk about 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:10.240 the fundamentals of the run of the mill police lineup 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:32.040 right after this. All right, so, run of the mill 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:36.000 police lineups. I mentioned that before we left. Everyone's seen 0:22:36.520 --> 0:22:40.880 movies and TV shows, and it's not too far off. Actually, 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:42.159 I mean, there are a couple of ways you can 0:22:42.200 --> 0:22:46.280 do it. Uh. There are lineups where you look at 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:48.719 someone in front of your face. And then there are 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:51.480 lineups like I had in l A, where I look 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.560 at photographs the ones. You know. It's way more sexy 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.000 for a TV show or a movie to line them 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:00.880 up in the traditional way. It's extray or narrowly sexy 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:04.439 like a live police lineup like you see on TV. Uh. 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:07.320 And then there are the simultaneous or sequential there's a 0:23:07.359 --> 0:23:09.200 lot of debate, which we'll get into in a minute, 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:11.960 about which is best. To me, it's pretty obvious that 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:14.920 sequential is best. Simultaneous is the one that you see 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:19.520 on TV. They line up six or seven dudes or ladies, uh, 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:22.800 and you identify them. Uh usually well it depends. We'll 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:26.399 get into the fillers or the foils, but uh, only 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:29.359 usually only one of those people is a suspect. And 0:23:29.600 --> 0:23:32.720 in like the best ideal version of it. Uh, then 0:23:32.720 --> 0:23:35.480 there're sequential, And that's when they bring out one person 0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:38.199 at a time and bring out like seven guys, just 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:39.840 one at a time, and you say, you know, let 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:41.639 me know at the end of this which one you 0:23:41.640 --> 0:23:43.439 think it was, or if it's a photo lineup, they 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:45.639 show you one photo at a time. Exactly. Yeah, I 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:48.439