Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcasting in you shirtless, severely
Speaker 1: vote bitten and in my case underwear listening past. You
Speaker 1: can't predict anything. Um, I got a bone to pick
Speaker 1: first off, because, uh, do you guys remember when we
Speaker 1: were talking about the guy that, um, the guy that
Speaker 1: had the blue fin tuna? Yeah? Right, and he uh
Speaker 1: refreshed my memory this that caught it legally into the
Speaker 1: woods doing something. I'm doing some horrible hosting. So we
Speaker 1: got a couple of corrections about the blue fin tuna
Speaker 1: that are interrupted. One clarification of one correction where you
Speaker 1: guys misled me and miss and really misled listeners by
Speaker 1: not knowing uh not knowing something. The story is how
Speaker 1: the the the catch season on bluefin tuna had been
Speaker 1: closed on the East Coast and a guy caught a
Speaker 1: five hundred, four hundred there's different weights going around a
Speaker 1: four hundred pound bluefin tuna. He thought, maybe I can
Speaker 1: hide this giant fish and no one will know I
Speaker 1: actually voted it because he could legally release it, right
Speaker 1: like you could target it for clients, but you just
Speaker 1: can't keep him. But he decided to keep thinking is
Speaker 1: of real valuable. He thinks he's gonna go and take
Speaker 1: it and sell it in a backdoor restaurant exchange, which
Speaker 1: I guess happens quite a bit. Um he doesn't do it.
Speaker 1: One of the restaurant's reports him for trying to sell
Speaker 1: this tuna. He panics, ties it to his truck and
Speaker 1: drags it out into the woods and then gets all
Speaker 1: these crazy fines and then talking about this, we're talking
Speaker 1: about what is the value of a bluefin tuna? And
Speaker 1: you boys, I can't remember which he was most guilty.
Speaker 1: You two are involved in it, and Miles Nolty, who's
Speaker 1: not here right now, was involved in it. And we're
Speaker 1: talking about how some tuna are worth millions of dollars. Correct,
Speaker 1: we looked it up on the internet. Yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: the internet. Okay, no, oh, but a guy is gonna
Speaker 1: now correct us. Okay, you check this out. Then check
Speaker 1: this out where he's saying. He says, in reference to
Speaker 1: the story of the poached and discarded bluefin tuna, you
Speaker 1: misstated the value of blue fin tuna and the Japanese
Speaker 1: fish auctions as one or three million dollars. And you
Speaker 1: even mentioned it was the first of the year, right, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's a there's a sort of ceremonial thing with the
Speaker 1: first tuna. They take a nice tuna and sell the
Speaker 1: first tuna of the year at auction, and it's like
Speaker 1: a dick swinging contest where whoever is kind of sitting
Speaker 1: on the fattest wall and it has the best business
Speaker 1: going will do a symbolic purchase of the first tuna
Speaker 1: as a sort of media driver. But the same fish,
Speaker 1: if it was the second tuna, would be eighty grand.
Speaker 1: It's the thing you do to be like. It's it's
Speaker 1: like the opening of the sale. It's like the Texas
Speaker 1: State Fair with the grand champion steer, and all the
Speaker 1: oil companies tell me more. I don't know this, but
Speaker 1: I like, I like, you have all your rural your
Speaker 1: rural areas they have, you know, your four eight or
Speaker 1: your state fairs, and so all these kids usually show
Speaker 1: these animals and then when you get to the end,
Speaker 1: they have the grand champion. You know, this is the
Speaker 1: premium steer. Well, you go to a state like Texas well,
Speaker 1: obviously there's a lot of oil money, and it happened
Speaker 1: a lot over like North Dakota. Some of those guys
Speaker 1: are paying you know, thousands of dollars, which those kids
Speaker 1: is a ton of money. But I think it's the
Speaker 1: same thing these steers go for, you know, one to
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars for a beef, because it's the same thing.
Speaker 1: It's like it's the grand champion. You know, you gotta
Speaker 1: have it. So yeah, that does not so you gotta
Speaker 1: get Yeah, I feel like getting that, man. I feel
Speaker 1: I feel like we're like in special contact. They will
Speaker 1: be sold for a great deal of money. But no,
Speaker 1: here's the problem. Here's what you guys did. It was bad.
Speaker 1: You were saying that the tuna is a tuna can
Speaker 1: be worth that amount of money. So the guy didn't
Speaker 1: pay a million dollars for it. But yes, but it
Speaker 1: wasn't the value of the tuna. It was like a
Speaker 1: it's a symbolic, ceremonial thing, has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: the value of the tuna. Yeah. No, you're completely right,
Speaker 1: and thank you wrong for misrepresenting the like the average
Speaker 1: value of a tuna. If one a year gets sold
Speaker 1: that way in the Dick swing contest, then it's not
Speaker 1: the value of the tuna. Yeah, if you're charging I
Speaker 1: guess the whole saler that these dudes on the outer
Speaker 1: banks there that are selling the tuna to They're not
Speaker 1: going to get that that money. He's got nothing to
Speaker 1: do with market. That's the interesting thing is doing some
Speaker 1: trickle down economics to make sure the dude that caught
Speaker 1: the fish winds up getting five grand or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let let's do introductions real quick. I wonder what a
Speaker 1: backdoor deal at a restaurant don't get you though? This
Speaker 1: guy that wrote this guy, Yeah, exactly, it'll gets you
Speaker 1: a ten dollar fine. This guy that wrote in, one
Speaker 1: of the guys that wrote in about this was very
Speaker 1: close to this and knew the players involved and kind
Speaker 1: of explained a little bit of backstory this tune. And
Speaker 1: it seems as though there was some other boats around,
Speaker 1: and somehow this guy thought it's possible to to do
Speaker 1: this without to deal with the fish of this size,
Speaker 1: without attracting attention, And it seems like he blundered in
Speaker 1: a number of areas and people were aware of, like, hey,
Speaker 1: that guy just drove by with a pound tuna hanging
Speaker 1: off the end of his boat. Um, sethics Uh introduce yourself, Uh,
Speaker 1: Seth Burgley. I don't know how much you might want
Speaker 1: to say, but no, there's no what you're named Burgh's
Speaker 1: no Burgley Burg No s Yeah, a lot of people
Speaker 1: call me Burgs, but a lot of nicknames now wes
Speaker 1: Um grew up northeastern Montana, farmed ranched up there, so
Speaker 1: that's kind of my background of agger culture. Stared hunting
Speaker 1: when I was about three years old, be begun and
Speaker 1: sparrows weren't safe, and been doing it ever since. Um
Speaker 1: what's northeast Montana, north of Brockton, so kind of between
Speaker 1: plenty Wood and Wolf Point, kind of up in no
Speaker 1: man's land. Dated a gale from plenty Wood one time.
Speaker 1: Go ahead, wasn't your sister? You've got a sister, Well
Speaker 1: I do, but she wasn't in plenty of Wood anyway.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah. So we moved down to Billings when I
Speaker 1: was in high school. My dad had some health issues
Speaker 1: and uh culture to healthcare stuff. And started college there
Speaker 1: and then got a scholarship to go to Ohio State
Speaker 1: now on a shooting scholarship, so shot competitively there and
Speaker 1: then the Army picked me up after that to go
Speaker 1: shoot for them and spent a few years doing that
Speaker 1: and moved back to Montana. I got involved in politics
Speaker 1: a little bit on the state level, and state representative,
Speaker 1: state representative representing the people of representing the good people
Speaker 1: of Carbon County. So it's the area that basically from
Speaker 1: just south of Laurel all the way to Red Lodge,
Speaker 1: you know, Luther Roscoe area, and then south of the border.
Speaker 1: How many constituents do you have? About ten thou So
Speaker 1: it's funny. I was, I was just in d C.
Speaker 1: And I was talking to a state representati from Virginia
Speaker 1: and talking about you know, campaigns and constituents and that
Speaker 1: sort of thing, and so I asked, I was like,
Speaker 1: what's a what's a campaign like for a state representative
Speaker 1: in Virginia. He's like, oh, you know, like three or
Speaker 1: four hundred thousand dollars And it's like, well, an expensive
Speaker 1: one here is about forty So it's a little bit different.
Speaker 1: That's still a four bucks. That's still four bucks for
Speaker 1: every content that's an expensive one. Yeah, the average is
Speaker 1: probably about six ten, maybe six or ten. It was
Speaker 1: about a buck for in an election You're you're looking
Speaker 1: at like five d to thousand votes is swinging the Yeah,
Speaker 1: a thousand votes is a big, big difference. I think
Speaker 1: we have a high voter turnout in Yeah, it was
Speaker 1: like sixty seven percent or something like that, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it's about I want to say what we have. Uh yeah, well,
Speaker 1: getting registered vote is there was probably a hired turnout
Speaker 1: than that. There's about sixty votes I think so, yeah,
Speaker 1: but it can be swung. A lot of the districts
Speaker 1: are handful of votes, votes, forty votes some of them.
Speaker 1: Usually there's one or two in the state that come
Speaker 1: down to five or eight votes and they do a
Speaker 1: recount and oh he won by three. So and you're
Speaker 1: saying that most like most state legislators are they have
Speaker 1: another gig, like, oh, yeah, you can't make a living
Speaker 1: at this. I mean they say we make eleven thirty
Speaker 1: three an hour or whatever the state wage. But that's
Speaker 1: eight hour days. So you know, when we're in session,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I guess there's some days
Speaker 1: we get out earlier. You have a half day that
Speaker 1: you work, but generally, if you're involved, you've been around,
Speaker 1: you're there at six six thirty every morning and you
Speaker 1: often won't leave tilt eight nine o'clock. So if you
Speaker 1: work six to six, that's kind of an average day,
Speaker 1: so you're not really making that much money. Everybody has
Speaker 1: a job. I was just gonna say, how many terms
Speaker 1: have you done? This is my third term, so yep.
Speaker 1: And then you're only getting paid when you're in session.
Speaker 1: That's kind of a people think you're on like a
Speaker 1: salary d it's you get paid every day that you're
Speaker 1: working and then we get a per diem. But you're
Speaker 1: moving up there and paying rent and buying food and stuff.
Speaker 1: So it's not really a money making gig. Do it
Speaker 1: for the for your ideological reasons or to try and
Speaker 1: help people out, so as a launchpad, right, some people
Speaker 1: might I don't see that as my projection. I guess,
Speaker 1: like life, it's good when you're really There's when you
Speaker 1: look at the makeup of the legislature. You get a
Speaker 1: lot of retired people because they have time to do it.
Speaker 1: You get some younger people that kind of are have
Speaker 1: time on their hands, or you know, independent business owners,
Speaker 1: guys that can do their own thing take some time off.
Speaker 1: And you get lawyers because they can just shut the
Speaker 1: practice down like all right, I'm not taking any I'm
Speaker 1: not doing any work for four months and then they'll
Speaker 1: come back. But it's kind of tough for you know,
Speaker 1: if you're in the egg world, you know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of guys from you know, out in the Sticks
Speaker 1: that are ranchers, are farmers, and farmers have a little
Speaker 1: easier because they usually can't get in the field, especially
Speaker 1: this year. They won't be until after we're out. But
Speaker 1: a lot of guys are starting to ca right now,
Speaker 1: so their wives are at home, you know, having things out.
Speaker 1: The neighbors are helping them out. So it's a tough
Speaker 1: gig if you're kind of a working man, how much
Speaker 1: of your job is balancing out all of Carbon County
Speaker 1: versus Red Lodge. Like you got a lot of people
Speaker 1: bitching about, like out of staters in Red Lodge and
Speaker 1: second homes and yeah, it's it's more of the ideologies.
Speaker 1: I think it's not. There's some really good people on
Speaker 1: both sides. I mean, you get people that have lived
Speaker 1: here for five generations can be you know, just as
Speaker 1: one side or the other. Yeah, people in Red Lodge
Speaker 1: can be if it's like, oh there, they got to
Speaker 1: be from California and be super liberal, and it's like, why,
Speaker 1: I know, guys from California, they're like more conservative than
Speaker 1: anybody else in the county. So it's it's not so
Speaker 1: much like where you're from or where you live. It's
Speaker 1: more about just kind of how you think about things,
Speaker 1: and people tend to group together. So it is, you know,
Speaker 1: the county is a lot more agricultural, rural people have
Speaker 1: been around for a while, a lot more farm you know,
Speaker 1: kind of production and of based, and Red Lodge is
Speaker 1: a lot more of retirement. And then you've got the
Speaker 1: ski hill, so you kind of get that aspect to,
Speaker 1: you know, get more more people that just kind of
Speaker 1: in and out, it feels like, to ski and hang out,
Speaker 1: so you kind of get some of that too. So
Speaker 1: it's definitely it's definitely. It totally is you know. That's
Speaker 1: like I tell people, it's like, this is exactly like
Speaker 1: if you took Montana and squished into one county. It's
Speaker 1: like that's Carbon County because you've got kind of like this,
Speaker 1: you know, everybody jokes like it's the hippie town. You know,
Speaker 1: all the people that live out there, and it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, the mountain town a little more
Speaker 1: palatable for some people. I don't know, and but it's
Speaker 1: like it's kind of like Missoula. You know, you've got
Speaker 1: that kind of that type of group, that dynamic and
Speaker 1: then you've got the two river valleys in Carbon County.
Speaker 1: We have the Clark's Fork and Rock Creek, which is
Speaker 1: kind of like the Missouri, and you know, the Yellowstone,
Speaker 1: and then Southeastern County is all just sage brush nothing.
Speaker 1: It's like if you go to broad Us, it's like
Speaker 1: people live out here. It's just nothing. And then there's oil.
Speaker 1: There's oil and southeastern part of the county. And then
Speaker 1: we have a lot of cold to you know, Carbon
Speaker 1: County they named it that because of the coal mine
Speaker 1: there in Bear Creek, so you have some of that industry,
Speaker 1: and so it is. It really is kind of like
Speaker 1: a little microcosma Montana. And then you got the mountains,
Speaker 1: you know, the Western slopes and yeah, everything, a lot
Speaker 1: of turkeys you have to drive to. You guys, got
Speaker 1: many fox squirrels. Any fox squirrels in the district. Fox
Speaker 1: squirrel they're definitely there. I know, no, I'm I'm looking
Speaker 1: at my retirement home out there, and not for the
Speaker 1: skin for the squirrels, damn it. Okay, and then uh so,
Speaker 1: so Seth is with us, and then uh be honest
Speaker 1: of course, Ben O'Brien, OKAYL four or six, Sam Lon Uh, dude,
Speaker 1: rolled in real quick, Dude, rolled in. We're talking. We're
Speaker 1: talking about chasing a little bit chapass, chafing. Ro In
Speaker 1: He chafed when he swims. That doesn't doesn't seem in
Speaker 1: salt water freshwater, saltwater, he says, a lot worse chafes
Speaker 1: when he swims. Yeah, I can see that I can't
Speaker 1: chase in salt water. Freshwater. Yeah, I mean you got
Speaker 1: you got sand mixing around, and you know, just kind
Speaker 1: of that abrasiveness of saltwater. I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: I've been ashing around snorkeling and cheese stuff and chafing,
Speaker 1: not about the presence of moisture. Yeah, I don't know, man,
Speaker 1: But how do we define like what causes chafe his skin?
Speaker 1: It depends because you're saying it's a big man's problem
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of contact. Yes, like my legs
Speaker 1: don't brush. No, you know. So that's why most people
Speaker 1: think of like when chafing, you think of chapass, because
Speaker 1: everyone's like most people are going to have some skin
Speaker 1: on skin contact and their gluteal crease. But uh, I
Speaker 1: was reading the thing the up Michigan's Upper Peninsula where
Speaker 1: I live very briefly. Uh, they're just getting walloped. There's
Speaker 1: a dear biologist in the up saying, if things continue this,
Speaker 1: this winner keeps humming along like it is. He's predicting
Speaker 1: they will lose forty percent of their white tailed deer
Speaker 1: this winter. That's wild. I had our local biolog just
Speaker 1: told me the highline lost forty percent in some areas
Speaker 1: last year. Man, you think hunters killed here? Uh? Talked
Speaker 1: about the tuna, big correction. I was talking about the
Speaker 1: great poet Robert Service, and I mentioned like American poetry,
Speaker 1: and boy, that got some Canadians riled up, he said,
Speaker 1: A guy Rhode. He says, as a Canadian in a
Speaker 1: British Columbian, I worry about our culture being overshadowed by
Speaker 1: America and our attempts to maintain a distinct identity from
Speaker 1: our southern neighbors. And he even spelt it that cute
Speaker 1: Canadian way. You just put that you in there for emphasis.
Speaker 1: He was like real worked up about misidentifying Bob Service,
Speaker 1: but that he was born in England, so let's oh,
Speaker 1: so they can't even claim to school in Scotland. He
Speaker 1: moved to Scotland he was five. It was born in England.
Speaker 1: So sorry, sorry, bro, how don't need to hear from
Speaker 1: any Scotsman. Spend so much time in the Yukon too,
Speaker 1: and you know, if you're in the Yukon, you definitely
Speaker 1: differentiate yourself from those folks down in British Columbia. So
Speaker 1: I guess I think him as an American poet because
Speaker 1: I feel like that's where his audiences. Yeah, and it's English.
Speaker 1: He's a British Canadian American poet. And then he and
Speaker 1: we just kind of appropriate anything. Yeah, you just pick,
Speaker 1: like if it's something in Cannon and you like it,
Speaker 1: you just act like it's American and then it is.
Speaker 1: I think he's spent like forty years, like the last
Speaker 1: forty years of his life in Europe, in London, Paris.
Speaker 1: Bob Service, propert service. Yeah, I call Robert Frost Bob Frost,
Speaker 1: and I call Robert Service Bob Services. I think it
Speaker 1: makes more. You know, you know the poems of Bob Frost, right,
Speaker 1: like that that thing about building fences. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he was the he was an American poet. Laureatette Bob Frost.
Speaker 1: He's got that poem where the two dudes are like
Speaker 1: they spend all their time building a fence between their properties,
Speaker 1: like good fences make good neighbors and like an old
Speaker 1: stone Savage and that you realize all they care about
Speaker 1: is like very carefully delineating the line between their properties,
Speaker 1: and that's like what they dedicate their lives too. I
Speaker 1: will admit that I definitely, I definitely disserviced Robert Service,
Speaker 1: uh because my impression of him. Uh. So I bought
Speaker 1: a book of collected works from the air little airport
Speaker 1: shack in King sam And Alaska. They sell Robert Service books. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because they want They're like, oh, I think they wanted
Speaker 1: everybody that likes to like lay claim just like you're
Speaker 1: saying that you're down on you're saying you don't like
Speaker 1: his poetry because it all rhymes. No, no, no, this
Speaker 1: was I just bought his book while I was waiting
Speaker 1: on our plan out to the peninsula to go hunt
Speaker 1: brown bears. And it was just like winter would not
Speaker 1: leave and spent a ton of the trip, you know,
Speaker 1: shoulder to shoulder with three other dudes in a tent.
Speaker 1: That sounds like a Bob Service poem. Oh yeah, And
Speaker 1: so I was super into Robert Service and just but
Speaker 1: I had like reading that book front back twelve different
Speaker 1: times on that trip, I'd kind of come to the
Speaker 1: conclusion that there's no way this guy got stationed in
Speaker 1: the Yukon because he was a cracker jack banker, you know.
Speaker 1: I figured that he was put out there because he
Speaker 1: kind of had like some drug or alcohol problems. And
Speaker 1: then you know, all of his poems talking about like
Speaker 1: the working class. Um, it just kind of got ingrained
Speaker 1: in my brain that this guy probably did what a
Speaker 1: lot of poets and writers do is die bad death
Speaker 1: somewhere destitute, drunk under some bridge exactly. But that's not
Speaker 1: the case at all. Turned out be quite quite a
Speaker 1: straight arrow. Yeah, And I didn't didn't learn that until
Speaker 1: just recently. So it made some money off. He was
Speaker 1: the most wealthy writer in Paris at one time, especially
Speaker 1: died drunk under a bridge. A less interesting this way,
Speaker 1: right if you would. Nowadays are too lazy to rhyme
Speaker 1: all their poems, and that guy had that work ethic
Speaker 1: that needs to go into like rhyming that stuff out
Speaker 1: to the bitter end, just get not only like he
Speaker 1: had a pretty sizable fortune going and then um he
Speaker 1: couldn't when World War one broke out he couldn't join
Speaker 1: up because of his physical condition, so he joined the
Speaker 1: Red Cross and uh yeah, litter bearer and one a
Speaker 1: bunch of medals. He sounds like too good a dude
Speaker 1: to be a poet, Like the poet should be under
Speaker 1: a bridge drum screaming at people. Yeah, juice, were did
Speaker 1: you just use the word litter bear? Yeah? Have we
Speaker 1: talked about um to the movie Tombstone? Oh not for
Speaker 1: a long time, but I know where you're going with that.
Speaker 1: The yeah, huckle bear so real quick, and I gotta
Speaker 1: get onto some of the stuff we're talking about that
Speaker 1: we're talking about shooting with South. So it's okay. I
Speaker 1: don't know if it's true. I haven't looked into this,
Speaker 1: but I've heard this. Everyone knows that that it's in Tombstone, right.
Speaker 1: The dude Aceman from Top Gun and he plays uh
Speaker 1: Bell kim Kilmer. Bel Kimbers. Also, I'll point out very
Speaker 1: good in heat Michael Man movie. So Bell Kimber says
Speaker 1: to a feller, I think he's fixing to shoot him maybe,
Speaker 1: or someone's fixing to shoot someone. Kilmer says, I'll be
Speaker 1: your He's like, do it shoot me or whatever. Pull
Speaker 1: your gun. I'll be your huckleberry. Okay, you know what
Speaker 1: the hell is that mean? No one knows what that means.
Speaker 1: Someone was telling me, and listeners will write it and
Speaker 1: hopefully clarify this point. Someone's telling me that he messes
Speaker 1: that he messed the line up, or someone the writer's
Speaker 1: messed it up, or something I messed up. The expression
Speaker 1: is he's like, go ahead, you know, pull your gun.
Speaker 1: I will be your huckle bearer, which would be a
Speaker 1: term for he's saying, try it. I'll be your pall bearer. Yes, not,
Speaker 1: I'll be your huckleberry. Have you watched it like ten
Speaker 1: times in a row to make sure that he actually
Speaker 1: does say it, like five five times, I'm your huckleberry,
Speaker 1: Johnny Ringo. Someone just I shouldn't have brought it up.
Speaker 1: Bring up. You should never bring up stuff you don't
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. He was too hot strung,
Speaker 1: real quick, real quick, um quick question for you. Guy
Speaker 1: writes in he's got I can't really understand it. He's
Speaker 1: got a bow that it maxes out at sixty pounds,
Speaker 1: and he's like, man, I want to go elk Hunton.
Speaker 1: Can I am I your responsible to lhunt with my
Speaker 1: sixty pound bow. I guessing compound? Yeah, absolutely not, absolutely
Speaker 1: not not not dude, my long total. Yeah, yeah, just
Speaker 1: understand what your weapon can do. That's all all matter.
Speaker 1: Get close, don't be bombing him at sixty yards. Sixty
Speaker 1: pound compounds like an eighty pound long bow. I mean,
Speaker 1: how many guys hunt with eighty pound longbows? Has a
Speaker 1: heavy air? Was heavy air? You should be shooting heavy
Speaker 1: air with the sixty pound bow, six blade broad head
Speaker 1: and a heavy arrow. Go to town. I'm not a
Speaker 1: humongous man. Um, I'm not a longest man, but I
Speaker 1: pulled quite a bit more than that. That's what I
Speaker 1: was just curious. But I don't know what his circumstances.
Speaker 1: How what are you pulling? I shoot seventy yeah, uh okay.
Speaker 1: Guy rode in from the military and he says, you
Speaker 1: guys are talking about whether you used when you're trying
Speaker 1: to explain to someone where something is. So you're you're
Speaker 1: looking out on the landscape and you're like, are you
Speaker 1: see a deer? And you're trying to explain where the
Speaker 1: deer is? And we were talking about whether you should
Speaker 1: that's described as talking someone into something or talking someone
Speaker 1: onto something. He says military feller. He says, it seems
Speaker 1: like the hegemony. His words settled down the former. Now
Speaker 1: he's a US Air Force Joint Terminal Attack Controller. J
Speaker 1: our job is to call in air to ground fire
Speaker 1: in support of ground forces. They damn sure talk people
Speaker 1: on to something. They do not talk someone into something. Um,
Speaker 1: he has more call in fire though. You don't call
Speaker 1: on fire. So you're calling him onto it. But you
Speaker 1: call in fire. So that's a good point, he says.
Speaker 1: Assuming every one of us has more or less the
Speaker 1: same knowledge base, what really sets a good j tech
Speaker 1: from a great one is our ability to get aircraft
Speaker 1: overhead and talk there sold to straws. You know, are
Speaker 1: you following all this? Talk their soda straw sensor onto
Speaker 1: a target expeditiously and facilitate fire. The term we use
Speaker 1: is talk on, because you are verbally moving the pilot's
Speaker 1: eyes from the known to the unknown. We work big
Speaker 1: too small. Also, whichever direction you are facing is twelve
Speaker 1: o'clock as opposed to changing it. Every time you talk
Speaker 1: on to a known spot, that part I don't understand.
Speaker 1: So you find your fixed point. It's like on a hillside,
Speaker 1: you all right, the big tree everybody got the big tree. Alright,
Speaker 1: the deer's you know, twelve o'clock, So you are the
Speaker 1: known point because he knows where you are, so that
Speaker 1: that's what I was wandering. He knows where the person is.
Speaker 1: So then you're designating off of all right, my twelve o'clock,
Speaker 1: because otherwise it's changing no matter where he is, and
Speaker 1: he always knows where the guy's facing. Now here's the
Speaker 1: hottest laser designator. Here's the hottest j tech tip they're
Speaker 1: not going to adopt from now on. We're talking about
Speaker 1: using as a unit of measures. So let's say you
Speaker 1: have a thing. Let's say that happens to be a
Speaker 1: deer by a school bus, and everybody can agree like
Speaker 1: that's a school bus comment scenario. Yeah, you'd be like, um,
Speaker 1: trying to explain distance. What they do is you pick
Speaker 1: something out on the landscape and make that a unit
Speaker 1: a distance unit. So let's say you can agree on
Speaker 1: a alone cedar tree on a ridge top and the
Speaker 1: deers somewhere off to the right. You take the width
Speaker 1: of that known cedar tree and that becomes your unit
Speaker 1: of measurement. That'd be a shitty one because it'd be
Speaker 1: very small so also you'll be talking about well fifty okay,
Speaker 1: but let's say you're talking sure, but whatever he's just saying, like,
Speaker 1: pick a known thing and make unit distance units often
Speaker 1: known thing. So if let's say it's a let's say
Speaker 1: the deer is pretty close, someone can't see you, Like, okay,
Speaker 1: that's our unit of measurement. Yes, three, go three of
Speaker 1: those over. Rather being like a little bit a teeny ways,
Speaker 1: D're always trying to do just like at what point
Speaker 1: your yards are mine? We're always like like twenty yards.
Speaker 1: But I don't know how the hell many you could
Speaker 1: go with there and wind up it's ten yards of
Speaker 1: sixty yards. Make a unit of measurement and march their
Speaker 1: eyes on that unit of measurement. I've done it with
Speaker 1: clouds before. Is that stupid? Yeah? You see that big
Speaker 1: moving cloud just turned into a mustache or go to
Speaker 1: the right, go to the right of the mustache. Um
Speaker 1: on the subject, name and guns. A little bit of
Speaker 1: feedback from people, the guys saying that you can't name you.
Speaker 1: One guy says that he has a rifle and he
Speaker 1: gave it a name, and he feels okay with it
Speaker 1: because he has a six five by sixty eight or
Speaker 1: six five by sixty eight, which then he knows a gun.
Speaker 1: I've six five by sixty eight, That's what he says.
Speaker 1: And he even says that he times since it's six
Speaker 1: five x sixty eight, he times it out, it comes
Speaker 1: out to four forty two, so he calls it the
Speaker 1: four forty two. Another guy was saying, you can't the
Speaker 1: same way you can't give yourself a nickname. If you're
Speaker 1: gonna nickname a gun, it can only be given by
Speaker 1: other people who name the gun. The same way you
Speaker 1: can't give yourself a nickname somewhat legitimate. Yeah, his buddy
Speaker 1: has a gun. He keeps too much oil on it,
Speaker 1: and one time he dropped a duck hunting and an
Speaker 1: oil that came off it, and so they call his
Speaker 1: shotgun the Valdies. I guess that guy. That's that guy.
Speaker 1: He's got a dog and who named the dog. This
Speaker 1: is the last, the last note I'm ever gonna give
Speaker 1: about cheese kurds or top so like cheese curds. When
Speaker 1: you buy on they squeak. If you've been to Wisconsin,
Speaker 1: you know about this. It's the only thing I like
Speaker 1: about Wisconsin, except for Doug during that's a joke. But
Speaker 1: cheese curds, like when you buy them, they get squeaky.
Speaker 1: Then you leave them laying around and they lose your
Speaker 1: squeak and doug during it feels as though it's like
Speaker 1: a sin against God and man, he's like, why would
Speaker 1: you ever let your courage sit around so long that
Speaker 1: they lose your their squeaking, Like if you let him
Speaker 1: sit that long, you don't deserve to have squeaky kurds.
Speaker 1: And these boys in Elroy, Wisconsin were telling us that
Speaker 1: you leave him on the dashboard your truck and the sun,
Speaker 1: they'll re squeak. Someone was telling us that if you
Speaker 1: microwave them, they'll get squeaky again. This guy is saying,
Speaker 1: the absolute best way to revive your neglected cheese kurds
Speaker 1: is to place them into a colander and run a
Speaker 1: hot water over them for about a minute. They will
Speaker 1: be not just as good, he says, and he makes
Speaker 1: a parenthetical if not better, then right when they came
Speaker 1: out of the vat. Okay, I'll be trying that because
Speaker 1: Wisconsin Turkey seasons coming up. Um can I can? I
Speaker 1: go ahead? It's not gonna start asking seth questions. I
Speaker 1: got one that might be a good way to lead
Speaker 1: into can you can you pivot off it? Yeah, it
Speaker 1: might be able to. I got to and I'll see
Speaker 1: if we can do this first one quickly. The dude
Speaker 1: wrote in this is interesting because it's kind of it's
Speaker 1: kind of about shooting, but he's got a predicament that
Speaker 1: he's found himself in twice. I want you guys all
Speaker 1: weigh in and see if what you guys are doing
Speaker 1: this situation. He went back country'll hunting in Colorados, buddy,
Speaker 1: And on the third year they went back three times.
Speaker 1: They finally got into a bowl on the last day,
Speaker 1: Um it was and they trade days on who gets
Speaker 1: to be the shooter and who's calling right, So it
Speaker 1: his day to shoot. Bull comes in, He's gonna have
Speaker 1: a perfect shot. Back up, What about the three years
Speaker 1: they've been Yeah, they've been hunting three years. I haven't
Speaker 1: got a shot yet, I haven't killed nothing. Now on
Speaker 1: the third year, last day, it's his it's his day
Speaker 1: to shoot, and Bull steps out and right as he's
Speaker 1: getting ready to shoot, he hears another bow go off.
Speaker 1: He sees the arrows smoked this bull, and he ends
Speaker 1: up still punching his trigger. Because it's just like he's like, whoa,
Speaker 1: what the and and and shoots an arrow to his
Speaker 1: arrow hits in the paunch. Bull goes like thirty yards,
Speaker 1: tips over and dies, ends up being a nice six um.
Speaker 1: And he's like, dude, thought it was my day to shoot, right,
Speaker 1: And he's like, oh really I thought it was mine,
Speaker 1: Like sorry, and so hold on a second, hold on
Speaker 1: a second. This fight, the two guys are hunting together. Yea,
Speaker 1: they're calling a bowl and he's saying that both of
Speaker 1: them simul like virtue like almost simultaneously launch arrows, both
Speaker 1: hit the one that seems to me can you look
Speaker 1: at and be like, are you oh you're drawn your
Speaker 1: bows drawn? Are they with each other or are they
Speaker 1: in different spots? Because if they could see each other,
Speaker 1: it's not like a subtle thing you're doing there. Typically
Speaker 1: set up is like twenty to fifty yards spread out,
Speaker 1: one guy in front, one guy typically, but I mean
Speaker 1: I've also called in bulls standing right next to the
Speaker 1: dude and been whispering in his ears when to draw
Speaker 1: a bow. So yeah, I don't know, thick timber. He
Speaker 1: could have been ten yards away and definitely been could
Speaker 1: have drawn and been doing jumping Jackson. The other guy
Speaker 1: wouldn't have to see what was so anyways, Uh, they
Speaker 1: split the meat like it always happens, and uh they
Speaker 1: can decide on who should get the antlers. The dude
Speaker 1: who was supposed to be shooting, Yeah, he got a
Speaker 1: bad hit. He got a bad hip. I have not killed.
Speaker 1: He blamed his bad hit on the fact that the
Speaker 1: other guys shot. That's what I was thinking right now.
Speaker 1: They're going when they're they alternate years, they swap it
Speaker 1: out each other's houses. It seems like two nice guys, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know a lot of guys that would not be
Speaker 1: so nice. I saw it down in the middle, and
Speaker 1: does he each have an antlic That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I didn't you know what, you know what he might
Speaker 1: not be realizing you can do when you saw something
Speaker 1: in half. He probably don't realize how you're supposed to
Speaker 1: put that to your wall would be pretty bitch in
Speaker 1: his half. Learn don't put it aiming out, you cut
Speaker 1: it down the school. Did they mounit or just have
Speaker 1: the school? I didn't say they mounited. I don't know
Speaker 1: what they're supposed to do. No one wants to saw
Speaker 1: it wants, and that's just the old school. If it's
Speaker 1: the old school, where he's looking where the mount is
Speaker 1: a shoulder mountain looking dead nuts forward, so you can
Speaker 1: put it right on the wall, so then you can
Speaker 1: split it, turned it sideways and plastered against the wall.
Speaker 1: That actually, if it's the school, you cut it and
Speaker 1: don't have him looking out. You have him plastered against
Speaker 1: the wall, which looks very cool. Yeah, and then you're
Speaker 1: like kind of artistic, maybe an innovator. Your wife's gonna
Speaker 1: like it to get a house with the same floor
Speaker 1: plan too. That'd be help that'd be helpful. We were
Speaker 1: going to do that. One time. We were gonna band
Speaker 1: saw a buck down the middle because it kind of
Speaker 1: kind of stepped out in a narrow opening, and a
Speaker 1: buddy and I were ten yards apart and just both
Speaker 1: pulled up and fired both hit it. And what happened?
Speaker 1: Who got to keep it? Uh? We we split the meat,
Speaker 1: brought it back um, and we talked about it, all
Speaker 1: sorts of stuff we were going to do. And the
Speaker 1: school was lying around for a while, and I did
Speaker 1: the European mount and it was sitting in my house
Speaker 1: and who tagged it? Kept senting I tagged it. I
Speaker 1: feel like whoever tags it, but we were going to
Speaker 1: cut that he never he never asked for it, never
Speaker 1: asked for it back and kind of think got out
Speaker 1: of hunting and he kind of blocked his number. But like,
Speaker 1: I st't know, but whoever tagged it took a hit, right,
Speaker 1: You don't know that they're taking that they're filling the
Speaker 1: tag for the team. You took the question to a
Speaker 1: game warden. To game warden, would wanted to go to
Speaker 1: who tagged it? And if you did a curvy shoulder
Speaker 1: a mount with the deer's looking at curvy and then
Speaker 1: you split it dead nuts down the spine and split
Speaker 1: the thing, then you have a curvy wall, which is tricky. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you have to in a castle. Yeah, or they have
Speaker 1: the planetarium or or they have the parapet um seth.
Speaker 1: You were telling me, so you kind of walked us
Speaker 1: through the thing of how you became a competitive shooter. Um,
Speaker 1: how First I want to ask you another question. I
Speaker 1: want to get into how this all happens, how a
Speaker 1: fellow gets into this. But you were telling me that
Speaker 1: that you used to shoot pistols competitively, right, So that's
Speaker 1: why I did o how to stay with pistol. And
Speaker 1: you're saying that some guys set the trigger so light
Speaker 1: that if you pointed towards the sky and shake it,
Speaker 1: it goes off. Yeah, so that's an event that they
Speaker 1: actually just removed from the Olympics. But it's called shooting
Speaker 1: this not for that reason. For that reason, it's called
Speaker 1: where you just run around. So they're some of those
Speaker 1: guys are running like fifty to seventy Graham triggers on
Speaker 1: those things. It's called it's called free pistol, and so
Speaker 1: it sounds super dangerous, but the reality is is that
Speaker 1: you've got it right. You've got your pistol pointed downrange
Speaker 1: and you it's most of them are some sort of
Speaker 1: falling block, you know, So you're one explain folks. So it's, uh,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the Ruger number ones if you've
Speaker 1: ever seen those. You've got a little switch on the
Speaker 1: bottom where you just flicking open, it drops a block down,
Speaker 1: You put the bullet in, your close it back up,
Speaker 1: the block comes up and locks it in. So it's
Speaker 1: kind of a like a block mechanism behind the chamber,
Speaker 1: and that's how most of them works. I'm sort of
Speaker 1: falling block for the single shot, so it's twenty two.
Speaker 1: You put your round in, lock it, and then you're
Speaker 1: aiming down your lane and there's usually you know, they
Speaker 1: have wind breaks or something. So you've got six or
Speaker 1: eight shooters and you know, maybe four that are wide,
Speaker 1: and then you've got your targets outdoor you shoot it's
Speaker 1: fifty meters away. Yeah, so you kind of damn hard
Speaker 1: with the pistol. Yeah, and it's about a to just
Speaker 1: under two inch bowls eye at fifty so it's I
Speaker 1: mean it's smaller in a coffee cup. Lad, So they're
Speaker 1: two small. So if you come up and you were
Speaker 1: to accidentally, you know, touch this thing off, that's a
Speaker 1: zero and it's ten ten nine eight out is how
Speaker 1: it scored. So you dropped ten points on one shot
Speaker 1: and you gotta count, I mean you count it, so
Speaker 1: that's ten points down. No, it's well, it's international international
Speaker 1: pistol style, so it's Olympic they shoot it all over
Speaker 1: the world Cups. And did you ever shoot that competition?
Speaker 1: Which one free? The more talk about yep, yep free
Speaker 1: was one of my events in college that I shot.
Speaker 1: So raising a pistol and shooting something that's two inches
Speaker 1: in diameter at fifty yards, So we shot a lot
Speaker 1: of indoor. Your fifty foot indoor targets about the size
Speaker 1: of a dime for your ten ring, how many shots
Speaker 1: in a roll can you put in there? The best
Speaker 1: I've ever done is like eleven I think out of
Speaker 1: sixty in a row um for a full match in
Speaker 1: the twenties somewhere. The key with three pistol is not
Speaker 1: screwing up and shooting seventh and eight. So if you
Speaker 1: shoot a bunch of tens, if you can hold the
Speaker 1: nine ring, that's like the world's best shooters are pretty
Speaker 1: much holding nine ring with a lot of tens, and
Speaker 1: your nine rings at fifty about I don't know, four
Speaker 1: inches probably, So it's about keeping a group. And now
Speaker 1: they've changed some of that. They went away from if
Speaker 1: you touch the ring it scores higher to now they
Speaker 1: do a lot of it on a decimal. So if
Speaker 1: you shoot a center center, it's ten point nine, and
Speaker 1: if you shoot just touch on the edge of it,
Speaker 1: it's a ten point zero, and if you go just
Speaker 1: outside it's a nine point nine. So rather than going
Speaker 1: you know guys that can shoot super deep shots and
Speaker 1: then throwing eight, you're going to score better than now
Speaker 1: because it's all just decimals, so it's like how close
Speaker 1: can you keep them to the middle, So it's a
Speaker 1: little bit more fair, I guess that way. Why did
Speaker 1: the Olympics get rid of this kind of thing, Well,
Speaker 1: a lot of it is. It's not Some of them
Speaker 1: aren't super fun to watch. I mean, this is like
Speaker 1: a marathon of shooting. So you're shooting at fifty it's
Speaker 1: sixty shots in two hours, so it's super long. And
Speaker 1: a lot of it has to do with they've kind
Speaker 1: of are going away from sports that aren't men and
Speaker 1: women together shoot. So you go to some of the
Speaker 1: rifle events, there's a lot more crossover. You're wearing jackets
Speaker 1: and you're shooting in a more controlled environment and like
Speaker 1: some of the ladies, I'll shoot the guys, whereas free
Speaker 1: pistol is a more of a there's a lot more
Speaker 1: physical involved. You don't get any real supports, you're not
Speaker 1: wearing you know, jackets or pants or anything to make
Speaker 1: your position better. Canvas yea canvas, like a super thick canvas,
Speaker 1: so you get locked in there and you literally or
Speaker 1: can't even move, so it's super stable so they're kind
Speaker 1: of going away from sports that can't be UM both genders,
Speaker 1: I guess, and it's not super exciting to watch, I guess.
Speaker 1: So so what are the other shooting sports that are
Speaker 1: in the Olympics? UM live shotgun. That's a big one
Speaker 1: in the shotgun because you know, you go to the
Speaker 1: Middle Eastern some of those countries and shotguns a huge,
Speaker 1: huge deal. It's a big money sport in a lot
Speaker 1: of places. They do air pistol still, so air pistol,
Speaker 1: air rifle, and then small bowl rifle, and then they
Speaker 1: still do rapid fire pistol, which is a twenty two
Speaker 1: event where you've got five big bulls eyes, which is
Speaker 1: what I shot when I went to the Army. They're
Speaker 1: just big black bulls eyes at twenty five and your
Speaker 1: tend rings pretty big, it's like three or three and
Speaker 1: a half inches, and that's a more dynamics. So you
Speaker 1: start with your gun at a forty five down and
Speaker 1: they've got lights or turning targets. Most of the upper
Speaker 1: class ones are lights and when the light goes off,
Speaker 1: you gotta come up and one, two, five shoot your
Speaker 1: shots and they do it eight seconds for your you
Speaker 1: do two series of eight second, two, series of six second, two,
Speaker 1: series of four seconds. I've watched that before and it's
Speaker 1: not boring at least, it's pretty cool. And they've changed
Speaker 1: it for the finals to where rather than being scoring,
Speaker 1: if you're a nine point five, you get a hit.
Speaker 1: Nine point five are better you get a hit. If
Speaker 1: you're nine point four or lowers, it's a miss. So
Speaker 1: when you come up, you just one to three and
Speaker 1: then they just, oh, this guy got four hits. So
Speaker 1: people can just look at that. It's really easy to oh,
Speaker 1: he shot a nine point nine. It's like, I don't
Speaker 1: know what that means. What's a nine point nine or
Speaker 1: ten point two. I really enjoy watching the biathlon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's got to be my favorite at Olympics. That's
Speaker 1: kind of the only one that I think people know
Speaker 1: is in the Olympics, right, the other ones that's like
Speaker 1: the rest of them in summer. Yeah, yeah, not when
Speaker 1: they're doing Olympic Games. Summer biathlon the own the winter
Speaker 1: shooting sport, UM, I believe, so I don't think they
Speaker 1: have any strict shooting sports. I think it's just the
Speaker 1: ski and ski and shoot. What countries are the best shooters? Um?
Speaker 1: America is decent. It depends like shotgun, Like we're Vinca
Speaker 1: Hancock is. He's won gold medals that just about every
Speaker 1: Olympics that he's went to. So we've got some really
Speaker 1: really solid shock. The most metal Olympians are shooters, right,
Speaker 1: A lot of them well besides you know, swimmers, but
Speaker 1: um yeah, the so they've got shotguns. Good for US.
Speaker 1: I'd say the big ones are UM, China is usually
Speaker 1: pretty good, South Korea, some of those the Asian countries
Speaker 1: put a lot of effort into it. Russia has a
Speaker 1: really long standing tradition of shooting um super well, and
Speaker 1: that kind of depends rapid fire. There's some Germans that
Speaker 1: shoot really really well on rapid fire free pistol. It's
Speaker 1: kind of a mix. There's like you know, kind of
Speaker 1: the bigger countries. A lot of the European countries are
Speaker 1: really big indusries. So the people that just generally kick
Speaker 1: ass at the Olympics. The US Russia like shooting pretty much,
Speaker 1: not like weird outliers, um not really shotguns kind of
Speaker 1: one because you get like you know, azerber John has
Speaker 1: a shotgun shooter that comes out and it's like doing
Speaker 1: really well. You know some random is there a wing
Speaker 1: shooting culture in the Arab world? Um, Like, I know
Speaker 1: there's big into falconry. I don't know, you know, I
Speaker 1: haven't really paid that much attention to it, but I know, um,
Speaker 1: when I was on the army team, they had a
Speaker 1: shotgun team and those guys would go over and shoot,
Speaker 1: and I guess some of the places they go are
Speaker 1: just super posh, you know, marble trap houses and all
Speaker 1: sorts of craziness. Yeah, and talking about hunting, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is like the sporting side,
Speaker 1: but one of the things that they that's big in
Speaker 1: the shotgun kind of almost like the underground, is they
Speaker 1: do pigeon shoots. And so what they do is they
Speaker 1: have a box with a spring in it, and then
Speaker 1: they have a ring at like, you know, say forty
Speaker 1: fifty yards across. I think it's smaller than that actually,
Speaker 1: and it's got like a four inch fence and so
Speaker 1: they've got this ring around it. So you sit back
Speaker 1: at certain distances and they basically pushed the button and
Speaker 1: it springs this pigeon out there can why, and then
Speaker 1: you got to shoot the pigeon. If it falls inside
Speaker 1: the ring, you get the point and if it falls
Speaker 1: outside of the ring, then you don't. That's not an
Speaker 1: Olympic game though, no, no, no, this is just I
Speaker 1: don't see that, you know, popular in America. I will
Speaker 1: have admit to having done that before, and it's big money.
Speaker 1: But they still do tower shoots. AlOH yeah, some kid
Speaker 1: climbs up in the tower and starts throws, starts throwing
Speaker 1: peasants over the ring. I did it in the Dominican
Speaker 1: Republic and there was five boxes, right you say, pull
Speaker 1: and Stig street pigeon comes flying out of the one
Speaker 1: of the five boxes and launches them. It launches them out,
Speaker 1: It springs them out because they they're captives, so they
Speaker 1: you know, pin their wings and they put them in
Speaker 1: the box, unpin them and they springs them out and
Speaker 1: you shoot them if they fall. But before they get
Speaker 1: over the fence, you get a point. What's the diameter
Speaker 1: of the of the fence? Well, heat, No, it's not
Speaker 1: I've only ever done that one time and I decided
Speaker 1: that I probably won't do that again. You know, you
Speaker 1: know how people never done it. But it's big money.
Speaker 1: I mean, people in the towers money on different shooters
Speaker 1: and you can buy shooters and I'll cut us find
Speaker 1: it's I mean, people are flying in on lear jets
Speaker 1: to shoot these things, do you Honestand we talk about
Speaker 1: turkey shoots like when I was a kid, I grew
Speaker 1: up by a gun club, a private gun twenty gun club. Um,
Speaker 1: and if I'm not mistaken, man, actually I need to
Speaker 1: I need to call some folks back home and ask
Speaker 1: me if I'm not mistaken. They when I was a
Speaker 1: little little kid, they would dig a ditch and put
Speaker 1: turkeys in the ditch with just their head sticking out right. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: And if you hit the turkey, you got to keep
Speaker 1: it and bring it home and cook it for Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1: And it was a long ways out. It was like
Speaker 1: remember it was like I feel like it was like
Speaker 1: you had to use the twenty two and the turkeys
Speaker 1: were way the hell out and you could just see
Speaker 1: their heads behind a berm And if you could hit
Speaker 1: the turkey, that's your turkey. Do you feel like that's
Speaker 1: the origination of the term turkey. I don't think I'm
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm making this up. Put him in
Speaker 1: a box. Yeah, the old school like these by the
Speaker 1: time when I was a kid, shooting was you shot
Speaker 1: a target and then you got a frozen turkey if
Speaker 1: you want, I think that was a PC version. It's
Speaker 1: like competition. Yeah. Yeah. I did some work for my
Speaker 1: buddy Randy Bam at a turkey slaughter facility. And if
Speaker 1: I was if you put me in a turkey, if
Speaker 1: you made me a turkey and I had and you said, okay,
Speaker 1: you're thanksgivings quickly approaching. Um. You can go to Bill Maher,
Speaker 1: the turkey slaughter facility that we did some working and
Speaker 1: you'll die there. Or you can go to twin a
Speaker 1: gun club and die there. I would go to twin
Speaker 1: a gun club to die. Can we can we clarify
Speaker 1: that Bill Maher not like the comedian guy. He doesn't know.
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's like b I L hyphen M A R.
Speaker 1: I think, look at these guys that up, these guys slaughter.
Speaker 1: I think when they're gearing up, I feel like they're
Speaker 1: slaughtering twenty thousand turkeys in a day or something like
Speaker 1: the or some insane number. And it's like a dude,
Speaker 1: it's a turkey. Turkeys runner un Turkeys would get out
Speaker 1: of the trucks and get away and once they hit
Speaker 1: the ground because they're all in a controlled environment. So
Speaker 1: we had all we had all the materials, like Ronnie
Speaker 1: eas Millwright, and we we'd have our materials in the
Speaker 1: parking lot and you'd come in the morning and you'd
Speaker 1: find turkeys hiding out in the parking lot in our
Speaker 1: material like because they'd get out of the truck and
Speaker 1: once they got the truck, they couldn't massle them. And
Speaker 1: so the turkeys go try to find a place to hide,
Speaker 1: and guys that work with catch those turkeys, bring them home.
Speaker 1: And remember this guy Rick, he made a little cage
Speaker 1: at home. It would take the turkeys he caught out
Speaker 1: the parking lot and put him in the cage and
Speaker 1: fatten them up in the cage and make smoke turkeys
Speaker 1: out of him. Good old day. If it's if it's
Speaker 1: more PC. If it's more then it's it's not even
Speaker 1: political cracktics whatever. If it's if it's regarded as more
Speaker 1: ethical to have a guy hit a target and give
Speaker 1: him a frozen turkey, I I just challenge that. I'm
Speaker 1: not I have no opinion on the matter, but I
Speaker 1: just my coming up. It had changed right, it was
Speaker 1: a turkey shoot, like I were on the turkey shoot
Speaker 1: and all the ones I did were muzzle order based,
Speaker 1: so it was all black powder open sites. And I
Speaker 1: want to remember when into my first frozen turkey was
Speaker 1: quite the accomplishment. I think I took a picture with it,
Speaker 1: like Griffin Grinn do you know? Daring? Um, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: pivot back into uh Wayne shooting whatnot? Daring? The Clinton administration,
Speaker 1: they very early on when they first identified Ben Ladden
Speaker 1: as a threat. They he was out hunting birds in
Speaker 1: the desert at a falconry camp and they debated hitting
Speaker 1: him there. This is like way back like ninety two
Speaker 1: or something like that. They debated hitting him there, but
Speaker 1: there was some other high profile sawdies who were also
Speaker 1: hunting out of that same camp, and they decided against it.
Speaker 1: So they almost got him hunting A good way to
Speaker 1: go that that that was my pivot because watch, I'll
Speaker 1: wrap it up. So since they you know there's that
Speaker 1: bird hunting culture through falconry, there's also a shotgunning culture there.
Speaker 1: And you were a competitive shotgun shooter. I never really
Speaker 1: shot competitively. Well, I thought that, So what did you
Speaker 1: do in high school? Shot um pistol? Pistol, That's what
Speaker 1: it was. And then for some reason I thought you
Speaker 1: you went and you were doing like the competitive wing shooting,
Speaker 1: not wingshooting, but ski I shot it a little bit,
Speaker 1: played with it. I had my roommate shot competitively, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I was always pistol all the way through. How did
Speaker 1: you how did you first, like start, how did you
Speaker 1: get into that? So I kind of started through a
Speaker 1: local club when I was in high school and buildings
Speaker 1: we had on the competitive side and we shot small
Speaker 1: bow rifle, twenty rifle and then uh air rifle, and
Speaker 1: so I shot that for a couple of years and
Speaker 1: then and I was okay. But there's a it's a
Speaker 1: lot of uh kind of building up a system of shooting.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're trying to get your position now in lockdown.
Speaker 1: That's most of what rifle shooting is is the position.
Speaker 1: So you're trying to get super stable so that you're
Speaker 1: right literally doesn't move, and it takes a while to
Speaker 1: kind of develop that. So right, so you're shooting three position,
Speaker 1: you're shooting offhand, kneeling and prone and prone. Obviously it's
Speaker 1: pretty easy. Everything's with a sling and peep sites, so
Speaker 1: that that's pretty easy, and getting into your kneeling and
Speaker 1: off hand positions takes a little bit more time. So
Speaker 1: I was decent, but not really great. And then I
Speaker 1: started shooting pistol as kind of an add on to that,
Speaker 1: and it was a lot better at pistol, and I
Speaker 1: enjoyed it more. There's you know, to put them all
Speaker 1: the jackets and drag your suitcase around with all your gear.
Speaker 1: So I'm I'm a little bit less structured in that regard,
Speaker 1: so I had more fun with it. How good can
Speaker 1: a person get with its funny to you rifle? Um?
Speaker 1: Pretty good? Like what kind of hundred yard group can
Speaker 1: you shoot with the twenty two oh under an inch?
Speaker 1: Like with a sling and a shooting just off a sling,
Speaker 1: prone shooting offhand stuff, Um, they don't really shoot hunter.
Speaker 1: All their matches are fifty yards. So but most guys
Speaker 1: that are good can hold pretty much hold half inch
Speaker 1: group shooting all the way through three position. Yeah, they'll
Speaker 1: they'll drop some points, but prone it's to be a
Speaker 1: competitive at the pro level, you have to shoot at
Speaker 1: six sixty out of sixty at fifty yards and that's
Speaker 1: wind calls. So you're shooting your you know, it's about
Speaker 1: half an inch bulls eye that you're shooting at. So yeah,
Speaker 1: if you're at the not even the national level, the
Speaker 1: top two or three guys will I'll be cleaning them
Speaker 1: sixty out of sixty shooting peep sites. Have you hunted
Speaker 1: squirrels much a little bit or cotton tails? Yeah? I was.
Speaker 1: I was stationed in Georgia, so George and Alabama is
Speaker 1: pretty pretty much bout hunting all that stuff. So these
Speaker 1: guys with hunt they could hunt, so they could hunt
Speaker 1: squirrels and just shoot off hand and hit squirrels out
Speaker 1: of the trees in the head. Yeah, those guys are
Speaker 1: some of those guys are nuts. How well how well
Speaker 1: they shoot? Yeah, I shoot a twenty two rifle decent.
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, some of those guys are pretty good.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I alwaysally just messed around to take my
Speaker 1: glock nine all to go squirrel hunting. Just get get
Speaker 1: up on that and you could get that good with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can hit squirrels with it. Okah. Best So funny story.
Speaker 1: A buddy of mine, who's who's it back in the
Speaker 1: service now, he's actually one of the Special Forces groups. Now,
Speaker 1: I was in the marksmanship unit with we were teaching classes,
Speaker 1: because when you're in the Army Marksmanship Unit, it's kind
Speaker 1: of a duel. You have to be an instructor and
Speaker 1: a competitive shooter. So you you do your training and
Speaker 1: you compete, but you also were on the instructor instructing
Speaker 1: side of it. And the unit started in fifty six
Speaker 1: and the the idea was is, hey, we need to
Speaker 1: figure out how to teach people to shoot well. So
Speaker 1: what's what better way to do that than have people compete?
Speaker 1: And then they learned the best way of doing everything,
Speaker 1: and then they convert that to the military and then
Speaker 1: teach all the joes. So that was kind of the
Speaker 1: mission statement of the unit and it stayed pretty much
Speaker 1: the same all the way through. And that was the
Speaker 1: unit you were in. Yeah, yeah, the Army Markmanship Unit.
Speaker 1: And it's and that's they're still you know, your titles
Speaker 1: a shooter instructor, so your training, but then you're also
Speaker 1: going in teaching, which I found that to be, uh,
Speaker 1: probably the more rewarding side of it, just because you're
Speaker 1: working with guys that just could literally save their life
Speaker 1: and you know, help them to be effective. So we
Speaker 1: had a class and we were teaching. There was about
Speaker 1: twenty guys, and it was a close quarters marksmanship c
Speaker 1: q M stuff. So you're shooting rifle, you know, car
Speaker 1: beings and pistols out to fifty yards. It's kind of
Speaker 1: the running gun if you think shooting type stuff. So
Speaker 1: we're at this class and a lot of the guys
Speaker 1: to qualify, we had a six inch dot at fifteen
Speaker 1: yards and that was kind of the standard that we
Speaker 1: tried to get them too by the end of the class.
Speaker 1: So everybody was kind of shooting, and it was lunchtime,
Speaker 1: and whenever it is lunch, we had amman around and guns,
Speaker 1: so we always just kind of kept shooting. So my
Speaker 1: buddy was out there shooting and we look up on
Speaker 1: the berm and it's kind of about eighty yards this berm,
Speaker 1: and then maybe thirty or forty up to the top,
Speaker 1: and there's this fox squirrel that's running along this berm,
Speaker 1: and so we see this thing like I was like, hey, hey,
Speaker 1: there's a squirrel up there. So of course, you know,
Speaker 1: it's open season on squirrels, and we're like all right.
Speaker 1: So the squirrel kind of comes down the berm a
Speaker 1: little bit and Buddy walks forward yards. He's not right
Speaker 1: next to the class. They're all kind of sitting under
Speaker 1: this covered area and this squirrels maybe seventy eight yards
Speaker 1: away and it's sitting in this tree, and so he
Speaker 1: pulls out his glock, you know, thirty four. It's like
Speaker 1: a long slide clock, nine millimeter, and everybody's looking at
Speaker 1: him like, yeah, there's no way, you know, we've been
Speaker 1: trying to hit the six inch dot. So he shoots
Speaker 1: and I think he missed his first shot at it.
Speaker 1: Second shot, he smoked this thing and it's like hanging
Speaker 1: from the tree. So he shoots again, missed his third shot,
Speaker 1: shoots again, hits it again. It's fourth time and it falls.
Speaker 1: So he runs up there and grabs the squirrel. So
Speaker 1: it was really funny watching the expression on all these
Speaker 1: guys's face. They're like, this guy just shot a squirrel
Speaker 1: of a tree like eighty yards away with a nine
Speaker 1: millimeter clock. So that's how that's kind of where you
Speaker 1: can get with some of that stuff. So those guys
Speaker 1: that you shoot all the time, it's just it's crazy
Speaker 1: how accurates something you can get, especially with a pistol.
Speaker 1: You know, we carry pistols for bare protection sometimes and
Speaker 1: now and then we'll get around shooting the pistols. It's embarrassing.
Speaker 1: It's so hard. Well, we took one class um from
Speaker 1: really well known instructor. By the end of that class
Speaker 1: we get all hit uh gong at a hundred yards
Speaker 1: with uh and it's it's form, man form and and
Speaker 1: just and the mental thing. There's like a mental thing
Speaker 1: and like I can't hit stuff with a pistol. And
Speaker 1: it's like then you watch somebody pull up and shoot
Speaker 1: a man sized target at like two hundred yards like
Speaker 1: ding ding ding ding ding ding, and you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: it's voodoo, and it's like, no, it's not. You just
Speaker 1: have to you gotta get your mind right. There's like
Speaker 1: a certain way of thinking about pistols and triggering in
Speaker 1: sights and then once you get the form, like how
Speaker 1: to lock it down. The most the most shooting disciplines
Speaker 1: are like that, right, I mean, shooting a thousand yards
Speaker 1: with the rifle seems intimidating until you lay down and
Speaker 1: have somebody tell you how to do it. Yeah, it's true.
Speaker 1: You have a spot or to you know, to walk
Speaker 1: you through it, and you've got control. I think that's
Speaker 1: the other thing about pistols. It's there's nothing. There's no
Speaker 1: support system where rife. But you've got a stock and
Speaker 1: you've got you know, you can kind of make it
Speaker 1: stop moving and keep it from like twitching. It's like pistol,
Speaker 1: any little thing. It's all about the mechanics of how
Speaker 1: you're shooting it, and it goes back to just repetitions.
Speaker 1: But that was kind of our thing in training. It's
Speaker 1: the most boring thing in the world, but trying to
Speaker 1: get your hold super super tight. So we would literally
Speaker 1: hold against a wall for half hour forty five minutes
Speaker 1: a day, and you work on body sway because you
Speaker 1: naturally sway when you stand, so you're trying to eliminate
Speaker 1: all that so that you're not moving your site back
Speaker 1: and forth on the target. You say, hold against the wall.
Speaker 1: You just had your arm up. Yeah, but what does
Speaker 1: that mean like you're pushing. Nope. You just take a
Speaker 1: pistol and you hold it about a foot from the
Speaker 1: wall and you've got a dot and you just try
Speaker 1: and hold it on that dot. Is basically work through
Speaker 1: your body and try and get all the movement out
Speaker 1: and just work on keeping that as still as possible,
Speaker 1: and you kind of build up all your little stabilizer muscles.
Speaker 1: But it's it's crazy how tight you can hold with
Speaker 1: the pistol once you've if you've trained that for so long,
Speaker 1: because if you're shooting that something so small, you can't
Speaker 1: be if you're moving around a lot, you know your
Speaker 1: wobble area. You're trying to get that as small as possible,
Speaker 1: and then you just it's like any other pistol. You're
Speaker 1: trying to break it inside that little wobble. But the
Speaker 1: smaller you get it, the more consistent you'll be in
Speaker 1: the more you know your score will go up. How
Speaker 1: much do your sites matter to you? Like if you
Speaker 1: have all your mechanics that matters if because you think
Speaker 1: about it, you know if you're off by a millimeter
Speaker 1: on your side alignment, that's throwing you off by inches
Speaker 1: at even fifty feet, so you know it it sites
Speaker 1: front sight, side alignment. The targets blurry when we shoot,
Speaker 1: you're just it's literally just locking those sights in. And
Speaker 1: we had the national coach name is Sergey lose Off.
Speaker 1: He was a Russian shot running target over in Russian
Speaker 1: and then came over with a pistol coach, so he
Speaker 1: had an accent. But he's like, you know, and I
Speaker 1: don't know if I can do a good Russian accent
Speaker 1: or not, but he's like Ukrainian. I think, all right, Russia,
Speaker 1: we're pretty what you have to do, He's like, it's
Speaker 1: like we have It's like you got to think about
Speaker 1: it like this. It's it's like your front sites are
Speaker 1: not like this. Uh, you're just watching this child walk
Speaker 1: around the room. He's like, he's like, you have to
Speaker 1: grab the child and slam him on the on the
Speaker 1: table and like holding there. That's how you work. The
Speaker 1: sites sounds Russian and I was like, oh sir, He's like,
Speaker 1: you know, they're not just passive. It's like you need
Speaker 1: to grab them. I was like, okay, okay, I got it.
Speaker 1: Sites are important. Can you Is there anyone that makes
Speaker 1: Does anyone make money shooting competitively? Is there any like paid? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: if you're good, that's the key. And I know some
Speaker 1: of the guys that I shot within the unit, like
Speaker 1: three guns pretty a lot of guys get out and
Speaker 1: they go work for you know, some of the guys
Speaker 1: that were went now top shooter for cig for instance.
Speaker 1: So you go get an industry job like that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you make good money or um vincent Um that shoots
Speaker 1: shotgun a lot of Hancock. He's a you know, multi
Speaker 1: time gold medalists, so he's out of the army now
Speaker 1: and does a lot of training seminars so he'll go
Speaker 1: and has his own kind of training system and does that.
Speaker 1: So you can make money on that side of it.
Speaker 1: But generally speaking, unless you're really really good or you
Speaker 1: get sponsorships, there's not when you're not going out and
Speaker 1: winning a hundred thousand dollars. YEA three gun is really
Speaker 1: the main one where guys could make because you're gonna
Speaker 1: get sponsored by several companies that basically pays. There's some payouts.
Speaker 1: Explain three gun for people. So three gun is uh,
Speaker 1: it's an action sport where you're shooting rifle, pistol shotgun.
Speaker 1: So it's a running gun. Anybody that shot like I,
Speaker 1: D P A, U, s P, s A, any of
Speaker 1: the action pistol stuff. You're running those guns and there's
Speaker 1: different classes so you can run. Some of them are
Speaker 1: race guns ports and a dot on them don't even move.
Speaker 1: And then you've got limited which is more you know,
Speaker 1: you have to shoot iron sights and you're limited on
Speaker 1: some of your magazine stuff, and then production is just
Speaker 1: like a stock glock. You can change a couple of things,
Speaker 1: but not a lot, so there's different classes. And then
Speaker 1: it's just running through a course and you'll have you know,
Speaker 1: a R fifteen target air fifteen rifle and you're shooting
Speaker 1: targets that are either paper steel, so you have like
Speaker 1: knocked down fall down plates. You know a lot of
Speaker 1: steel and it's either two hits on steel or one
Speaker 1: hit on steel knock them over. And then you've got
Speaker 1: paper targets with rings so like a ring b ring
Speaker 1: you know, see ring type stuff. So you're just running
Speaker 1: through a course and you have it all three guns
Speaker 1: at once, not not usually some of them. Um so
Speaker 1: there's a match and I haven't shot a lot of
Speaker 1: three guns, but they had had a match that um MGM.
Speaker 1: It's like the metal target company they sponsored out in Idaho,
Speaker 1: like eastern southeastern Idaho called the Iron Man, and so
Speaker 1: their stages were I mean you'd run a stage and
Speaker 1: be like four or five minutes long, and you have
Speaker 1: to drag dummies and like have weights and you shoot
Speaker 1: i mean like sixty shots a shotgun and you start
Speaker 1: you're like loading a shotgun, go through like four magazines
Speaker 1: on your pistol, and it was just super long stages
Speaker 1: and you're running through and so they say you start here,
Speaker 1: you gotta shoot this bank of targets and you could
Speaker 1: miss stuff and you know, you're trying to keep track
Speaker 1: of everything and like, oh, you didn't see that target,
Speaker 1: and so that's those are kind of fun. And then
Speaker 1: a lot of them are more controlled, where's a tight
Speaker 1: stage and you just kind of run through and play
Speaker 1: the game and it's all about speed and accuracy. So
Speaker 1: how fast can you move? The guys that are really
Speaker 1: really good at it, you can break down the stage
Speaker 1: and find the least amount of movement. And it's they
Speaker 1: don't tell you how to shoot anything, so you can
Speaker 1: shoot pretty much any order as long as you're not
Speaker 1: you know, shooting back. It's like a one eight plane
Speaker 1: that you can't break and people just work through it
Speaker 1: and it's it's pretty cool that like hitting all the targets. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you're just trying to, you know, go through and
Speaker 1: hit everything as fast as you can and the least
Speaker 1: amount of movement and then it's all time time versus hits. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a lot of times they'll be a shooting house or
Speaker 1: like to answer your question about where the guns are,
Speaker 1: you'll have like a barreled shotguns and some of them
Speaker 1: are or air fifteen on the table, so you know,
Speaker 1: some of them make you pack them so you shoot
Speaker 1: it and then you gotta sling it. Like that's where
Speaker 1: I was going with the Iron Man. It's like you
Speaker 1: gotta sling stuff and carry it sometimes. But a lot
Speaker 1: of them, like you said, you shoot your pistol drop
Speaker 1: in a box, grab your rifles. Should your rifle drop
Speaker 1: in a box, grab your shotgun, finish it out, clear it.
Speaker 1: So that's to keep it safe. And are the mill
Speaker 1: a dude? The military guys dominate this or there people
Speaker 1: who've never been in the military, they're good at um. Both.
Speaker 1: It comes out of training. You know obviously in the unit.
Speaker 1: If you've got guns face you know that. Think cool
Speaker 1: thing about the a m U is we had a
Speaker 1: fully functional gun shop with full time guys that are
Speaker 1: working on machining, I mean full on CNC machines. They
Speaker 1: could pretty much redesign and build anything you wanted them to.
Speaker 1: Full reloading room guys that all they do is reload
Speaker 1: and test. So in terms of figuring out the market,
Speaker 1: you've got guys like that, which is obviously an advantage,
Speaker 1: but a lot of it's just time on the range
Speaker 1: and bullets range. It's time and run through, run through
Speaker 1: your stages. Like everything has to be muscle memory. How
Speaker 1: do I cut off a half a second on the
Speaker 1: shotgun reload? How do I cut off half a second
Speaker 1: on this movement? Half a second here? Because that adds
Speaker 1: up and that's the difference between first and tenth. I
Speaker 1: tried this some years ago, and it was reloading that
Speaker 1: got me all the time. Reloading a shot shotguns horrible
Speaker 1: and I was horrible, like fumbling everywhere. You drop around
Speaker 1: like oh, pick that up, and then you know, if
Speaker 1: you don't get them all in there, you're just gonna
Speaker 1: miss one, like you just and then you got to
Speaker 1: keep going. Yeah, but military is good. We we shot
Speaker 1: some of that styled stuff, so there's kind of a
Speaker 1: competitive side. And when we were in we stood up
Speaker 1: a team. So the last year that was in the
Speaker 1: unit actually went over we called the I T. G
Speaker 1: and Structure Training Group and usually what we did we
Speaker 1: had the pistol shooters kind of teach the close range stuff,
Speaker 1: you know. The Service Pistol International pistol, and then the
Speaker 1: rifle shooters that were on the rifle teams, they taught
Speaker 1: kind of the long range wind calling in position stuff
Speaker 1: and it worked okay, and what we did, um some
Speaker 1: guys stood it up. And then I actually joined the
Speaker 1: team after they had kind of started working on it
Speaker 1: was to develop a curriculum that said, hey, we've got
Speaker 1: guys like like myself and other guys have shot through
Speaker 1: college and we had you know, six a ten years
Speaker 1: of shooting experience. And then we had guys that came
Speaker 1: over from like the third range of battalions at Fort Bennings.
Speaker 1: A lot of those guys would come over. So you've
Speaker 1: got guys that have been deployed six ten times and
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time, you know, years in combat.
Speaker 1: And then you take those guys you say, all right,
Speaker 1: what's effective in combat? What's effective if you're if you're
Speaker 1: in houses, if you're knocking on door, or is if
Speaker 1: you shooting long range? What type of situations do you see?
Speaker 1: How do you make this effective? And then we took
Speaker 1: our shooting ability. So I know how to pull a trigger,
Speaker 1: I know how to run a gun, but how do
Speaker 1: you kind of meld the two together so that you're
Speaker 1: running a gun so it's combat effective and that was
Speaker 1: really really cool, and then developing programs through that. So
Speaker 1: we trained a lot of kind of three guns. But
Speaker 1: it's like, how do you get your kid efficient? How
Speaker 1: do you get the stuff quickly? How where do you
Speaker 1: put your magazines? How do you set up your rifle
Speaker 1: so that you're not you know, everything's quick inefficient. So
Speaker 1: efficiency of movement is important no matter what what your shoot,
Speaker 1: if it's combat or if it's you know, training. I
Speaker 1: think I told you this, uh over dinner, But one
Speaker 1: time went down. I was the guest of Special Forces
Speaker 1: Group in Fort Bragg, and I went down into their
Speaker 1: compound and I was surprised because I went out to
Speaker 1: watch them train and they were training on something that
Speaker 1: seems like so specific. They were spending the day training
Speaker 1: on how to transition from your rifle to your pistol.
Speaker 1: Right basically, they're training how to drop that and pull
Speaker 1: your pistol out so and shoot a target with it.
Speaker 1: And it's it seems small, but you've got to think
Speaker 1: about the situation that you're looking at. Okay, you you
Speaker 1: bust into a building and all of a sudden there's
Speaker 1: guys popping out with guns and you pull the trigger
Speaker 1: and you hear the loudest sound in the world click, right,
Speaker 1: and then what now. It's like, well, you can try
Speaker 1: and clear your rifle and get around in it, or
Speaker 1: you know, misfire. You don't necessarily know what's wrong. You
Speaker 1: have some sort of malfunction. Well, we train, and it's
Speaker 1: kind of been a transition in the military away from
Speaker 1: we'll get your rifle up. Pistols are just there so
Speaker 1: you can look good, I guess, to where it's like,
Speaker 1: no pistol can be an effective tool. So that's where
Speaker 1: you see those transitions. It's like, and I know a
Speaker 1: guy that I did some work with that had a
Speaker 1: situation where this happened, and it's the same thing as
Speaker 1: like click. He tried to clear it, click, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, the guys turned around with a gun.
Speaker 1: It's like, what do you do now. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: I've got a secondary weapon, because it's always primary secondary,
Speaker 1: that's how they train in the military. He's like, well,
Speaker 1: here comes the pistol and basically saved his life. So
Speaker 1: that's why if you shoot it, it doesn't go and
Speaker 1: you've got a threat in front of you. It's like
Speaker 1: you have to get to your secondary as quickly as possible.
Speaker 1: And if it takes you three seconds to do that,
Speaker 1: which isn't a lot of time, but it's a whole
Speaker 1: lot different than second half. That's why that's such an
Speaker 1: important thing. And you know, you start from the ground up.
Speaker 1: That's where every little you train, every aspect. You start
Speaker 1: with just a gunlow, bring a gun up and shoot,
Speaker 1: and then you bring a gun up and shoot left
Speaker 1: and right, you know, transition targets, and then you bring
Speaker 1: up and shoot close near, and then you do a reload,
Speaker 1: and then you just kind of work your way through
Speaker 1: every aspect and then that gives those guys ability to train,
Speaker 1: and you can do it without even shooting. You know,
Speaker 1: you can transition, you can do all that stuff, practice
Speaker 1: movements and it's it's crazy how quick you can shoot
Speaker 1: transitions and how fast you can move between gear and
Speaker 1: how fast you do a reload. Where do you put
Speaker 1: your your kit at all? And like you said, it's
Speaker 1: like we'll spend a whole day doing this. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: the level of details fast and thing. I recently heard
Speaker 1: an interview with an FBI agent. He was saying the
Speaker 1: FBI Academy, they teach you how to unbuckle your seat belt.
Speaker 1: They did like you to take your left hand and
Speaker 1: put it between your body and the belt, slide down
Speaker 1: to the buckle, reach your finger around and unclipped the
Speaker 1: buckle and move it so that it diminishes the chances
Speaker 1: that if you need to get out of your car quickly,
Speaker 1: that you become entangled in your seat seatbelt. And like
Speaker 1: to think about that, someone's looking at like that level
Speaker 1: of that that level of specificity, and you're saying, once
Speaker 1: you learn it, you never unbuckle your belt another way.
Speaker 1: It just becomes like how you're doing being in grizzly
Speaker 1: country though, Like if you're thinking about having bear spray
Speaker 1: and a pistol, and then no one ever talks about it,
Speaker 1: never practice you have to, like you should have that
Speaker 1: transition down and where how you get your pistol, how
Speaker 1: you get your bear spray, and have practiced that even
Speaker 1: think you don't practice it. So then we we talked
Speaker 1: about doing a thing where now and then when you're
Speaker 1: out in grizzly country, but now and then someone should
Speaker 1: just clap their hands with those stop watch and be
Speaker 1: like how long does it take everyone to like dig
Speaker 1: through their pack by their prepper spray die. It's like, quick,
Speaker 1: where did I put that stuff? You know? Yeah, man,
Speaker 1: it's the same kind of danger. You know, I don't
Speaker 1: want to get eaten by a barrel or shot by
Speaker 1: a dude. You know your chances if you spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time in the wilderness, you know your chances
Speaker 1: are higher, meaning by a bear in a lot of cases,
Speaker 1: and getting shot in Montana. I mean, just reality. What like,
Speaker 1: what makes what makes a good shooter? Is it? Is it?
Speaker 1: I know you can't divide them out, but what makes
Speaker 1: the actor a great shooter? Is it is? It's psychological?
Speaker 1: Is it physical? Definitely? Psychological? More psychological. We'd say shooting
Speaker 1: is physical nine percent metal. What is the metal? So
Speaker 1: this is where it gets crazy, right, depends on what
Speaker 1: you're doing. So if it's a dynamic thing, then it's
Speaker 1: about training muscle memory, training movements. So it's like building
Speaker 1: up your your kind of processes, your thoughtless processes. On
Speaker 1: the more intentional side of it, So like the stuff
Speaker 1: that I shot is very slow, methodical, all process based.
Speaker 1: So what you're trying to do is you're trying to
Speaker 1: get a mental process that is repeatable, and then you
Speaker 1: are a plan and then you stick to that and
Speaker 1: that's what you're doing the whole time. So you work
Speaker 1: on the physical you know, the holding the gun, that
Speaker 1: triggering and all that, but then the rest of it
Speaker 1: becomes mental. So we would read a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: golf books, tennis books, things like that, because it's the
Speaker 1: same idea. It's like when you have your golf swing down.
Speaker 1: You know, anybody at the top fifty guys in the
Speaker 1: PGA can alsowing in golf club, It's like, what's the difference.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, where they put themselves mentally, the decisions
Speaker 1: they make, you know, making good shots, following their process
Speaker 1: exactly the same way every time, and that's where it's
Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's like a lot of things,
Speaker 1: I guess, it's process oriented versus outcome oriented. So you're
Speaker 1: trying to keep yourself from thinking about what's the implications
Speaker 1: of if I do this or that. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. I'm just gonna do my process and
Speaker 1: whenever happens happens, I've trained the process and I'll stick
Speaker 1: to it. And that you're not obsessing over the outcome.
Speaker 1: You can't if as soon as you think outcome, you're done.
Speaker 1: That's what I think. Like, that's the thing I found
Speaker 1: that over the years, I've become I hesitate to use
Speaker 1: the word, I'm not gonna say very good. Over the years,
Speaker 1: I've become good, um like good as a rifle hunter. Okay,
Speaker 1: not like I don't take insane shots, but I don't
Speaker 1: have a lot of I don't I don't make a
Speaker 1: lot of mistakes because you just like do this, this, this, this, this,
Speaker 1: and it just happens. But archery, But the minute, the
Speaker 1: minute something's approaching, all I'm thinking about. I'm I'm in
Speaker 1: what you say, outcome all I'm thinking about his outcome.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't want to miss it. I don't
Speaker 1: want to wound it. It's like it's all I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about with my rifle. I'm not like I sure hope,
Speaker 1: I I sure hope I don't wound it. I'm like,
Speaker 1: very fun. Yeah, I'm very focused with like, I'm very
Speaker 1: like I know that I'm gonna do what I do
Speaker 1: and I know that I will I will be successful,
Speaker 1: Like I just know that that will happen. So I've
Speaker 1: developed that confidence with archery I can't overcome. It's a
Speaker 1: major problem with archery. I can't overcome jumping to the
Speaker 1: unknown the outcome. It's funny put it that way, because
Speaker 1: it's just but it's in your head, man, it's in
Speaker 1: your head. I've got a mental image. This is from
Speaker 1: like five years ago, still like crisp as Day, and
Speaker 1: it's this. It's me letting an arrow go in a bull.
Speaker 1: It was about thirty five yards away and watching the
Speaker 1: arrow go to to do four ininges over his back
Speaker 1: and like I, I shoot a bed of archery a
Speaker 1: little bit, you know, for a while, and so I can.
Speaker 1: I can shoot a boat pretty decent. And thirty five
Speaker 1: yards is not a long shot, and it's wide open,
Speaker 1: nothing between us, you know, grass, and he's standing there
Speaker 1: and I'm looking, and then you have this mental play
Speaker 1: back and I'm thinking because I was kind of in
Speaker 1: some low grass and I was trying to stay real,
Speaker 1: real low. And then I remember and it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: so your your mind goes through into this whole you know,
Speaker 1: this whole memory and about you know, a millisecond, and
Speaker 1: it's like you have all these pictures that you can
Speaker 1: kind of play back, and I'm thinking you know, when
Speaker 1: I looked at that pin, there was a triangle that
Speaker 1: I was looking at that pin through. It was not
Speaker 1: a circle. That was my peep side. And I know
Speaker 1: I came back and I was oh, and I looked
Speaker 1: right over the top of my peep site through the
Speaker 1: little you know, you're accommodation. And I came through and
Speaker 1: I was like, this is perfect. I was like, and
Speaker 1: the arrow goes fours and three four in right over
Speaker 1: his back like dead nuts, straight up right up the
Speaker 1: back of the leg, right over only in hindsight, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I totally looked over my peep site and
Speaker 1: it's like something that I think I've ever done that.
Speaker 1: Like you said, man, you get in that situation and
Speaker 1: it's like the blood starts pumping in a big bowl
Speaker 1: and you're like, I've recently going to a back tenson
Speaker 1: or at least because I was getting jumpy. And once
Speaker 1: you go to the back tension release, if you're not
Speaker 1: the form isn't right and you're not pulling the right way,
Speaker 1: it's not going off. I keep surprised people talk about this,
Speaker 1: but it's like trend. It fixes a lot. Just it's
Speaker 1: a trend. People have been talking about for a long
Speaker 1: Have you doing this because my brother like switched. It's
Speaker 1: it's really like what I would when I was practicing
Speaker 1: with the trigger. You know, one out of six shots,
Speaker 1: I'd get tired. I'd be jumping the trigger when you're
Speaker 1: practicing what I would do on the teachings of John Dudley,
Speaker 1: like I would put I'm focused on my back elbow,
Speaker 1: feeling that deltoid muscle pull in the right way right,
Speaker 1: focus on that muscle, focus on my follow through, and
Speaker 1: you almost you stop thinking about your front, your site.
Speaker 1: You're thinking about it, and my following through the proper
Speaker 1: process is my process going. We used to I used
Speaker 1: to put um and I still do this. Put a
Speaker 1: speaker behind me, directly behind me where I want to
Speaker 1: pull to turn music on. Public speaker, put you suck
Speaker 1: you suck uh, and put music on and pull to
Speaker 1: the music right and and have my elbow go towards
Speaker 1: the music and focus on you know how my elbow
Speaker 1: is traveling towards that sound, and you totally forget what's
Speaker 1: going on in the front half of your body. And
Speaker 1: I'm more accurate like that than any other way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going to I haven't but I'm going to see.
Speaker 1: That's the thing is Kenyan was like he Mark Kennyon's
Speaker 1: talking about he's gonna finish up the season and then switch,
Speaker 1: so he's got plenty of time to switch into. I've
Speaker 1: thought about that. I thought about having a thumb release,
Speaker 1: which is generally the same set up, but you're you
Speaker 1: have a thumb trigger instead of right, so you you
Speaker 1: flip to that and it's kind of the same motion,
Speaker 1: but you have control, right, so if an elks coming in,
Speaker 1: you don't have to wait. But I know guys like
Speaker 1: I would say Shane Dory and a bunch of guys
Speaker 1: that have bow hunted with recently who took the leap
Speaker 1: and said I'm just gonna hunt with this thing, and
Speaker 1: the next thing I know, they're five shots, five dead
Speaker 1: animals at all different ranges, all different times. So I mean,
Speaker 1: you just adapt to it as being the most sound
Speaker 1: way to have a process in the woods. I've been
Speaker 1: thinking about. It forces you to do it right. It
Speaker 1: forces you to do it right. I just hate like
Speaker 1: new learning new stuff, man, because you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: like after so many years of doing something some way,
Speaker 1: I would rather it's just easy, not easier it's you
Speaker 1: just almost want to double down on what you know
Speaker 1: rather than really changing. Like if someone said, like, there's
Speaker 1: a new rifle out and you put a thing in
Speaker 1: your mouth right and you just bite down to make
Speaker 1: it go off, which is probably not a bad idea, Yeah, maybe,
Speaker 1: but I would be hesitant. I was very hesitant when
Speaker 1: I met with John. I'm like, that's a good idea. Yeah,
Speaker 1: somebody right that there just like pinch between your eye
Speaker 1: teeth released. I know. I know a guy who got
Speaker 1: in an accident last year man some like trash compactor
Speaker 1: thing and he got like squished in it, messed up
Speaker 1: his back, shoulders and no, no on the job dude.
Speaker 1: But he's really he's really, he's really, he's really serious
Speaker 1: figous hunter imagine something. You know some of you know him.
Speaker 1: But he hunted last year with a with a bow
Speaker 1: with a mouth release because he couldn't draw no, no,
Speaker 1: like t it was a tab that he was biting
Speaker 1: and drawing his bow. Yeah. I grew up with a
Speaker 1: guy like that. He'd lost his arm in an accident
Speaker 1: and shot by holding the mouthpiece. I think he might
Speaker 1: have killed a bull doing that this year, but I
Speaker 1: don't remember exactly. I think he did. He are you
Speaker 1: talking about Josh? Why? Why are you guys being all
Speaker 1: secret at No? I just just because I couldn't couldn't
Speaker 1: bring it to mind right away. Yeah. Yeah, And you
Speaker 1: like how much name dropping do you want to do
Speaker 1: on the Meat Eater podcast? You want to bring too
Speaker 1: much the right amount to not be confusing to people, right,
Speaker 1: that's my that's my barometer. I feel like you're feeling
Speaker 1: a little high and mighty in your fancy sweater today. Dude,
Speaker 1: I'm never Are we gonna talk about it? Are we
Speaker 1: gonna talk about it? Well, let's talk about it. Listen, man,
Speaker 1: there's either I either make my wife happy or I
Speaker 1: make you guys happy. And guess if I'm more interested
Speaker 1: in making happy, Yes, man's gotta man's gotta make my
Speaker 1: An's gotta make my wife. Commented on how handsome I
Speaker 1: looked in the sweater she bought me. Yeah, she bought
Speaker 1: you the sweater that she knew she bought it for you.
Speaker 1: See if he wears it again, sweaters just so we
Speaker 1: can have an interaction, it'll bring us closer. Uh. Nice
Speaker 1: sweater pivoting away from my sweater? That was quick. Psychological
Speaker 1: what okay, you hunt, this is this is good. You'll
Speaker 1: be able to hand to this. How much does what
Speaker 1: you learned from competitive shooting where it's just replicating controlled atmosphere, right,
Speaker 1: is hunting just totally different? Yes, yes, and no, there's crossover.
Speaker 1: It's uh, it goes back to the process. You gotta
Speaker 1: put yourself like you know I said, and you miss
Speaker 1: a bowl and it's like, how did I do that?
Speaker 1: It's like, well, you get amped up and you don't
Speaker 1: follow through your process that it's kind of the same thing.
Speaker 1: You know, it even combats the same thing. Guys that
Speaker 1: go over and they say, well, you guys are good shooters,
Speaker 1: but you got a combat it's gonna be totally different.
Speaker 1: It's like we used to say, you know, you will
Speaker 1: perform at your lowest level of training, So your worst day,
Speaker 1: that's how you can expect to shoot. Now, you might
Speaker 1: do better, but you're always going to revert back to
Speaker 1: your lowest level of training. Everybody wants to, you know,
Speaker 1: peek before and you're gonna rise to the occasion. It's
Speaker 1: like that doesn't happen very often. You you'll revert back
Speaker 1: to your lowest level of training. So that day when
Speaker 1: you feel like crap and you're pulling crappy shots, and
Speaker 1: that's how you're gonna shoot. When you get a big
Speaker 1: bullet front of you, you might shoot better, but that's
Speaker 1: what you can count on, you know, your lowest level
Speaker 1: of training. So it does your surious day. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the range. Yeah, work on eliminating those. That's that's the
Speaker 1: whole point. You know, Like talking about back tension releases,
Speaker 1: it's like, well, maybe it doesn't give you as much control,
Speaker 1: but if it's more consistent, like it eliminates those like
Speaker 1: jerk shots that go off in the neverland, It's like, well,
Speaker 1: then that eliminates that shot that that might be the
Speaker 1: shot you pull on a bowl and all of a
Speaker 1: sudden you shoot him back in the pond oring high
Speaker 1: liver or something. You know. The game you play with yourself,
Speaker 1: right is your You go, you're out hunting and you
Speaker 1: throw out a target and you make a nice shot.
Speaker 1: The tendency is to be like, okay shooting, because you
Speaker 1: want to end on that. You want to end on
Speaker 1: that feeling of that you got it dialed. If you
Speaker 1: shoot like a really bad one, want to shoot one more?
Speaker 1: Just I gotta I can't let that sit well, and
Speaker 1: that goes back, you know, to you guys are talking
Speaker 1: about long bogs. You know. I had it with traditional
Speaker 1: for a long time, and it's like that thing that's
Speaker 1: really where you gotta get your mind right because there's
Speaker 1: no pin to rely on. There's no like, oh, I'll
Speaker 1: just pull back with the pin in right place and
Speaker 1: squeeze the trigger. It's like, no, it's all process. I mean,
Speaker 1: you don't have anything to rely on. You're like, well,
Speaker 1: I've been doing this for a long time when I
Speaker 1: shoot a lot, so I'm just gonna come back, follow
Speaker 1: through your touch and that arrow. Hopefully it's gonna go
Speaker 1: we're supposed to and try and get you know, five
Speaker 1: yards away. That helps, but it's it's kind of that
Speaker 1: same thing. I think it does transfer a lot for
Speaker 1: the mental aspect, but I think a lot of it's
Speaker 1: just a process. What's my process? I get in there
Speaker 1: and you're thinking about the right thing and think about
Speaker 1: the first thing. You know a lot of guys like
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know how to to break this down.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, if you get to step one, what
Speaker 1: step one? So say a bowl comes in, It's like
Speaker 1: step one is to say, like remind myself, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna squeeze through the shot or I'm gonna back tension,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever works for you. Site make sure I'm
Speaker 1: picking the rights pin or focus on the pin, you know,
Speaker 1: let the elk be a little bit blurry or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. That's your first step in that process. And
Speaker 1: then say, I'm gonna do that first thing. I've got
Speaker 1: five steps or three steps, and I'm gonna do the
Speaker 1: first one. And if you do that, it's like your
Speaker 1: your process then takes over. It's when you get there
Speaker 1: and I don't know, I'm just gonna pick a random
Speaker 1: step and roll with it. Well, then your brain freaks out.
Speaker 1: That's that's step one, and then the rest of them
Speaker 1: will just go like you gotta you gotta it yourself
Speaker 1: into that, start your process and then it just is
Speaker 1: automatic or most of the time. You just said two
Speaker 1: things that resonate with me. I want to back up
Speaker 1: on one because I think it's such a it's a
Speaker 1: really interesting point I hadn't thought of. Is um practicing
Speaker 1: to eliminate your worst which is like when you're shooting,
Speaker 1: if you you know, if you're if you're out shooting,
Speaker 1: in your yard with your bowl and yeah, one in
Speaker 1: every six arrows is just like what the hell? Yeah right,
Speaker 1: how did that go? Yeah, and you write it off.
Speaker 1: It's like something. But it's like consistently if you throw
Speaker 1: a bad arrow, Yeah, if you could find a way
Speaker 1: to like think about that rather than trying you know,
Speaker 1: and of course you're trying to replicate your good shots
Speaker 1: to make more of them, but to isolate like the freaks. Well,
Speaker 1: it's because I have enough freaks for if you just
Speaker 1: imagine rolling the dice, Like if every time, if you're
Speaker 1: in a tree stand, every time a deer comes by
Speaker 1: and you've got one in six arrows is just crazy.
Speaker 1: You can never figure out why one in six arrows
Speaker 1: is crazy. It's gonna be in the back of your mind.
Speaker 1: You're like, well, is this gonna be the one? The
Speaker 1: bad one? Well, you don't like to train stuff you're
Speaker 1: not good at either. It's like I like to make this.
Speaker 1: You know, this is what I'm good at. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go do that, so I feel good about it. But
Speaker 1: it's like the work involved is finding the areas where
Speaker 1: you're deficient or weak, saying, well, what causes that one
Speaker 1: six shot? Well, it's this, well, then train that, get
Speaker 1: better at that, and then it brings your whole system up.
Speaker 1: It's not as much fun. But you know, like blank
Speaker 1: bail shooting, you're blind shooting. A lot of the guys
Speaker 1: will stand there and just work on forum. You know,
Speaker 1: I do a lot, especially traditional. You just get a
Speaker 1: big blank bail and close your eyes and just what's
Speaker 1: it feel like? All right, that's the system, and then
Speaker 1: that's what you do. But it's not fun. It's not
Speaker 1: nearly as much fun as watching arrows flying to the target.
Speaker 1: I've I've tried. I've talked about this before, but my
Speaker 1: dad's somehow got his hands on these stickers. And when
Speaker 1: your kids that said, um, stay calm, pick a spot
Speaker 1: and you put them on the inside of the limb, yep,
Speaker 1: your bow. But then you start relying on this idea
Speaker 1: that you're gonna remember to read that damn sticker. But
Speaker 1: when I'm out, I don't. I don't do this with
Speaker 1: rifle hunting at all. But if I'm out bowl hunting,
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time trying to be like
Speaker 1: when when the when a moment when you send some
Speaker 1: moments gonna happen to start going into this thing, like
Speaker 1: like you said to bring find yourself process. Yeah. But
Speaker 1: but and you could even be in a situation where
Speaker 1: you see something coming and you and you remember. You're like,
Speaker 1: you congratulate yourself for remembering be like the process process
Speaker 1: and just pick some part so you're aware that there
Speaker 1: is a process. But then all of a sudden, like
Speaker 1: you can't tell I remember hunting, hunting. Uh, so you
Speaker 1: can hear in Maryland this year, I had all the
Speaker 1: time in the world, so I called this. I called
Speaker 1: to a stag and he's starting to come and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 1: he's coming, and I'm like, hey, process, process, process, process, process.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember all the things I'm gonna do.
Speaker 1: And then he comes through this area where it's a
Speaker 1: lot of obstructions. So he passed through this little thicket
Speaker 1: and I'm like, he's gonna come all the way through
Speaker 1: and I'll never get a shot. But then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, he stops in the weirdest little gap and
Speaker 1: instead of this whole thing that I've been telling myself
Speaker 1: about how I'm gonna do this whole walk through dimnity
Speaker 1: stops like right so like right up until the second
Speaker 1: and then even though I remembered, like I is happy
Speaker 1: to remember process, but then you get this gap and
Speaker 1: you're like, well, screw the process. Yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: a good I gotta shoot this arrow. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: a good hunter. Who could who would be like I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna have an opportunity. There's an opportunity. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: stick to my plan and if it doesn't work or
Speaker 1: he steps away, then then too bad. And it's not
Speaker 1: like I'm now going to throw the whole thing out
Speaker 1: of the window and then show shoot over its back?
Speaker 1: Which which is? Which is? That's like Kyle hunting for me.
Speaker 1: I've been doing a lot of Kyle hunting in the winter.
Speaker 1: Man Kyle comes running in and it's like I forget,
Speaker 1: I mean you forget shoots like hundred yards stand at
Speaker 1: me and he's like they stop and you know they're
Speaker 1: about to rush like boom and you miss him. Like
Speaker 1: I'm shooting a sitting shot with back support and I
Speaker 1: missed a coyote straight up at eight inch target at
Speaker 1: a hundred yards. It's like it'll humble anybody. But it's
Speaker 1: like same thing. It's like I got this plan. He's
Speaker 1: gonna come over here and pop out, and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, it's like there he's about ready to leave,
Speaker 1: and you're like, crap, shoot that shot takes off running.
Speaker 1: You're like, why didn't I do that? I could have
Speaker 1: taken a half a second actually squeeze line up, keep
Speaker 1: it steady, boom and dropping. But you're like, I gotta
Speaker 1: shoot now. What do you think is the biggest mistake?
Speaker 1: What what's the biggest mistake that UH hunters make when shooting?
Speaker 1: You can do it archery and and or archery and
Speaker 1: or rifle rushing the shot, I'd say, you know, I
Speaker 1: do it still. That's that's the main thing, trying to
Speaker 1: trying to push that shot. You know, you you break
Speaker 1: your plan, Like you said, I gotta I gotta shoot
Speaker 1: it now, I gotta I gotta do this, I gotta
Speaker 1: do that. If you just take that and it seems
Speaker 1: like forever in your mind, but if you actually watch
Speaker 1: a video of yourself shooting, you're like, I felt like
Speaker 1: I took an extra five seconds and it was three
Speaker 1: quarters of a second. That little bit of time to
Speaker 1: just okay, this is what I'm doing and then just
Speaker 1: do it seem like the deliberate you know, that's I
Speaker 1: try and tell myself that just be deliberate, be deliberate,
Speaker 1: be deliberate, because I know the system. I know the process.
Speaker 1: I've shot millions of rounds same things, like, be deliberate,
Speaker 1: make a deliberate shot. It helps me to repeat things
Speaker 1: like that. It just helps me bring my heart rate
Speaker 1: and my breathing down a little bit to have that
Speaker 1: mantra going. I always tell myself slow as smooth and
Speaker 1: smooth as fast, yeah, And I just kind of repeat
Speaker 1: that and try to not be like, you know, we
Speaker 1: used to say that all the time. You can't miss
Speaker 1: fast enough, can't miss fast enough. I do that. Also,
Speaker 1: I have a five for archer. I have a five
Speaker 1: step process. Right, So it's feet draw, anchor peep pull, right,
Speaker 1: that's all I do it. And I line my feet
Speaker 1: up and I do all the time, and that's good. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you see a buck coming and you're like, remember
Speaker 1: feet drawl, So I draw straight back And I didn't
Speaker 1: come up with this, John Dudley did. But you all
Speaker 1: straight back, You find your anchor and then put your
Speaker 1: nose down and find your peep and then pull and
Speaker 1: you're not like you're never like shoot, it's pulled feet.
Speaker 1: Do you line your feet properly, you bring your bow up,
Speaker 1: you draw, you find your anchor, and the feet draw anchor,
Speaker 1: anchor peep and then pull. And if you could just
Speaker 1: remember to do that, Man, here's how I did just that.
Speaker 1: Here's how I generally do it. Feet draw. But yeah,
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's if if the process marries
Speaker 1: up with your ability to act in the moment. Like
Speaker 1: I read. I read a little bit on flow state
Speaker 1: and thought I was real smart, and then I thought
Speaker 1: I would flow state my way to killing animals didn't
Speaker 1: really work. What's flow state me? This is like a
Speaker 1: state of positivity and action and control, like focusing on
Speaker 1: like your mental state and being positive. I thought, oh
Speaker 1: if I meditated. I never meditated. But the idea that
Speaker 1: I could control mentally like this process and make sure
Speaker 1: nothing could penetrate it like one, two, three, four or
Speaker 1: five bam, just have never successfully doesn't work. It doesn't work.
Speaker 1: But that's when when you get to the back tension.
Speaker 1: Then you start to like control. You would make sure
Speaker 1: that hey, man, I can I can jump this, but
Speaker 1: I have to be pulling the right way. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: I can try to jump it but the back tension
Speaker 1: is is controlling me. My brother talks about lust and greed.
Speaker 1: Mm hm, the preacher, it's compelling. No, he talks about
Speaker 1: lost and green and honey because he's like, he could
Speaker 1: shoot targets all day long, but he doesn't lust for him.
Speaker 1: And when you put like a big game animal in
Speaker 1: front of him, like he says, it's it disappoints him
Speaker 1: that he's like the lust and greed wants it. He's like,
Speaker 1: I want it so bad that it blocks my ability
Speaker 1: to have it. Yeah, if you could just tell yourself
Speaker 1: there'll be another shot, there'll be another animal. They'll be like,
Speaker 1: if you just treat it like that, like it's got
Speaker 1: to be perfect or I'm not gonna do it. If
Speaker 1: you could somehow do that, life will be like maybe
Speaker 1: when I see something coming through the woods, I'll be like,
Speaker 1: who gives a ship? Just a big old box? Who
Speaker 1: really even wants this stupid thing? Stupid? It's probably gonna
Speaker 1: taste it's probably gonna taste terrible. Take a shot, but
Speaker 1: I don't care. I always think about that pistol course
Speaker 1: that we took, paid a bunch of money, Um, do
Speaker 1: this accelerated pistol course, by the end of the day,
Speaker 1: five out of five of us can hit a target
Speaker 1: with a pistol at a hundred yards, and I will
Speaker 1: guarantee you within a year, there wasn't one out of
Speaker 1: five of us that could hit a target with in
Speaker 1: fifty yards, right, because will you lock in the process
Speaker 1: and you're like, well, got that, I'll just put this
Speaker 1: on the shelf over here. Perishable skill. That's the thing
Speaker 1: about this, But so so is my long bow. Same thing? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: because it process, process, process, muscle memory. Don't shoot that
Speaker 1: thing for a week. It's like, I'm a danger to myself.
Speaker 1: That's the weird thing in the archery space where everybody's
Speaker 1: gotta have a new bow every year, right, you gotta
Speaker 1: have the newest, greatest bow you have to. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna be any any kind of good, you're like,
Speaker 1: you're switching bows every year. I appreciate that nothing by
Speaker 1: two year old, both for a lot cheaper, but there's
Speaker 1: so many come on your five Yeah, I mean, but
Speaker 1: that seems to be a better way to go. You
Speaker 1: got a bow, you know, and you know the mechanics
Speaker 1: of it. You understand what it's gonna do. Why switch yeah,
Speaker 1: I take a pretty seer siously the switch like rifles,
Speaker 1: I don't care, I'll bounce. I'm nervous about not not
Speaker 1: even like I'm not like a great shot, right but
Speaker 1: far from a great shot. But I still get nervous
Speaker 1: about switching. But then I'm like, maybe I'll be better.
Speaker 1: But it's a good thing that that industry has done.
Speaker 1: Is I think I don't know if it's slowing down now.
Speaker 1: Maybe honest has perspective on this, but it'd be like
Speaker 1: it seemed like for a while, there's so many advances
Speaker 1: or they made you think they were advances, and then
Speaker 1: when you had an older bow, you were like missing
Speaker 1: out on the party. Yeah, and it's probably like a
Speaker 1: marketing creation still that way. I remember there's a particular
Speaker 1: company that used to have at a t A. They
Speaker 1: would have like a dude come in on a motorcycle
Speaker 1: with the new bow and it would be like fireworks
Speaker 1: going off and even drive they would like drive a
Speaker 1: motorcycle into their booth with the new bow and everybody
Speaker 1: be like and I'm like, what is this thing? Like
Speaker 1: is this thing shooting five fbs with a smooth draw?
Speaker 1: Like yeah, So it's but that they still every company still,
Speaker 1: you know, every company were assault in the industry still
Speaker 1: puts out a new model every year. I got a
Speaker 1: good question for you. Uh, this can like mental versus mechanics. Right,
Speaker 1: many many times I've gone down to the range just
Speaker 1: to make sure that my hunting rifle is on. All
Speaker 1: of my rifles are hunting rifles. So I don't know
Speaker 1: why I put that in there, but like I start out,
Speaker 1: get some some flyers, and then I end up adjusting
Speaker 1: my skill and then by the end of that session
Speaker 1: at the range and then readjusted it back to the
Speaker 1: original set. Mechanics or mental, I would say probably mostly mechanical.
Speaker 1: And the reason being is that depending on your rifle
Speaker 1: and conditions exact, Like I haven't shot rifle for six months, right,
Speaker 1: so you you haven't fired bullets for the board, it's
Speaker 1: not hot. As you go through it warms up, and
Speaker 1: depending on I mean, every rifle is different. It's like
Speaker 1: I've gotten to shooting a lot of long range stuff
Speaker 1: since I got out, just because it's kind of a
Speaker 1: cool gig and it brings a lot of things together
Speaker 1: for me. And uh, you do do wonder right because
Speaker 1: you're shooting these match rifles and heavy barrels. They weighed
Speaker 1: fifteen pounds or something, which is a light rifle. Now
Speaker 1: a lot of these guys are shooting twenty plus pound
Speaker 1: rifles and a lot of the camps. And so you
Speaker 1: get out there, you're all right'm gonna check my zero,
Speaker 1: make sure you go up there, and it's dead nuts.
Speaker 1: And over time you start to see trends like, well
Speaker 1: it's colder out, or it's warmer out, or you know whatever,
Speaker 1: my load changed. Is it a fresh reload or is
Speaker 1: it a you know, one's been sitting there for two
Speaker 1: months that change. Ammo? It's a different lot of ammo.
Speaker 1: You know, well it's the same box. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but that was that's a different bullet and a lot
Speaker 1: of different primer, a lot different case, a lot of
Speaker 1: different powdered lot. So it's the same box, but it's
Speaker 1: like everything's changed. That's why I like, you know, reloading
Speaker 1: at this point, there are way too many variable and
Speaker 1: you can just like start like spinning yourself as far
Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole as you want to go. And
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it. You know, you get
Speaker 1: into a group, you know, how you shoot, your position
Speaker 1: plays a heart in that. So you shoot some rounds through,
Speaker 1: it gets formed up, you change your position, you get
Speaker 1: used to the recoil. You know, you're tight start with
Speaker 1: and then you relax into it, so that changes things
Speaker 1: a little bit. And so yeah, there's there's a lot
Speaker 1: of variables. I would say it's mostly mechanical and that's
Speaker 1: the key. You know, people have this idea, you know,
Speaker 1: like take snipers for example, like all these guys, they
Speaker 1: just they're wizards. It's like, well, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: trends through shooting. It's like where's my cold boar shot go,
Speaker 1: where's my bullet going? It's this format, where's my bullet
Speaker 1: going him at this elevation? So you just track that
Speaker 1: and then we keep you know, dope charts. You know,
Speaker 1: you write everything down and after time, same thing with
Speaker 1: a hunting rifle. Even when I used to shoot, you know, pistol,
Speaker 1: I would keep a log every day I shot. I
Speaker 1: would write down what I did, what I worked on,
Speaker 1: what I noticed. And then over time you can flip
Speaker 1: through that and you're like, oh, you start to see
Speaker 1: trends develop. And it's not something a lot of people do,
Speaker 1: but just journaling, you know, even you go to the range. Okay,
Speaker 1: go to the range. Just have a notebook and say
Speaker 1: I shot here. My gun was shooting three inches high
Speaker 1: and the left. I'm using this box, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: mark on your box of AMMO or a lot of ammoor.
Speaker 1: If reload fifty, it's easier because then it's the same.
Speaker 1: Let's say I reloaded this on this date. So then
Speaker 1: you go to the range and then you say, well,
Speaker 1: it always shoots, you know, it always starts out shooting
Speaker 1: high left, and then it goes down to the lower
Speaker 1: ride and then it goes back to the middle again.
Speaker 1: And so then you own if you're got hunting, like, okay,
Speaker 1: this frown is probably gonna go, you know, two inches
Speaker 1: high and left, even though it was zeroed off the
Speaker 1: last group. Because that's what it always does. My journal
Speaker 1: would always be the same, man, be like, shot some
Speaker 1: pretty sweet shots, hit some couple flyers, ended on a
Speaker 1: good note. Yeah, my first question would be what defined
Speaker 1: what your flyers are? When you say I have a
Speaker 1: few flyers and so I start messing with my scope. Man,
Speaker 1: my my brain is strange because I have like a
Speaker 1: very very select few things where I get like super
Speaker 1: anal attendive on one is like building arrows and and
Speaker 1: even like tuning my arrows to my my bows, um
Speaker 1: and my my groups. I'm like, well, that doesn't look
Speaker 1: like a tight group to me. When I have somebody
Speaker 1: be like, well, yeah, but you're shooting an in group.
Speaker 1: How far do you really shoot? You know? So um,
Speaker 1: but something that just looks sloppy. You know. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: I got three within and four inches, uh, two hundred
Speaker 1: yards and then I got to ten inches for an example.
Speaker 1: Your group goes from four inches to ten inches. So
Speaker 1: you're saying, yeah, just just like some sloppy us. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, nope, I know I did everything right. Everything
Speaker 1: felt great, and I can't mentally wrap my head around
Speaker 1: wide how one bullet could stray a minute of elk
Speaker 1: and walk away. Do the old the old Michigan trick.
Speaker 1: Put out a pie plate at a hundred yards, Yep,
Speaker 1: hit it, We're good to go. Shot a five inch
Speaker 1: group and a hundred we're solid. Yeah, yep, those do kill.
Speaker 1: It's that's something to remember too, because I shoot, you know,
Speaker 1: you're I want a gun that shoots for shooting a
Speaker 1: match guns like half inch. A lot of guys get
Speaker 1: wrapped around and they'll do low development to the nth
Speaker 1: of green. Like I want a gun that shoots quarter
Speaker 1: m o a, it's like, well, a gun that will
Speaker 1: actually shoot true quarter m a A for like five
Speaker 1: shot groups is rare. I mean you're getting into benchres world.
Speaker 1: Think I got guns that I've done out and shot
Speaker 1: and they'll shoot seven eights pretty consistent. And as long
Speaker 1: as you're not shooting targets outside of that, I mean,
Speaker 1: think how they get target you're shooting. It's like I
Speaker 1: can shoot two Emily targets all day long. It's all
Speaker 1: about your wind calls and everything else. So I don't
Speaker 1: get too wrapped around that anymore. As long as it's
Speaker 1: a consistent load and it's you know, keeping to that
Speaker 1: same thing, it's like, well it's well under an inch
Speaker 1: half inch is great, but in for hunt rifle, it's
Speaker 1: like a shooting an inch, Like that's pretty solid. But
Speaker 1: that's good. Chuck Christopher, it's a big competitive bench ResQue
Speaker 1: guy out of Idaho. I don't um I'd go down.
Speaker 1: He's got a facility built at his house, basically like
Speaker 1: a bunker on the hillside. I think you should have yeah,
Speaker 1: flat tire ranch um fitting and I used to go
Speaker 1: up there to try to like site my rifles in
Speaker 1: with him, and it was just the most it's it's
Speaker 1: a add experience. You share the eggs at yards and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, and he is so dialed and he's
Speaker 1: so he's got his process down and his process and
Speaker 1: like the hunting equivalency like they just do not meet,
Speaker 1: like like it's not real world. It's almost a different sport.
Speaker 1: When you're talking about some of that bench rest complete,
Speaker 1: it's amazing those guys are shooting four or five inch
Speaker 1: groups at a thousand though consistently like their eggs or
Speaker 1: you know, they'll shoot like three matches and they're shooting
Speaker 1: five inch groups four inch groups with a little six
Speaker 1: mil or something coldly cow. You know. It's funny about
Speaker 1: when you talk about the consistency and the consistency of
Speaker 1: the equipment is the way that there's this idea that
Speaker 1: back in Boon's era that these guys are like these
Speaker 1: expert marksmen, you know that they like shoot and split
Speaker 1: lead on hatchets and stuff like that. It's like when
Speaker 1: you think about that they were hand pouring bullets, sometimes
Speaker 1: making their own gunpowder and then having shooting rifles that
Speaker 1: were that were rifled by hand. You're like, and then
Speaker 1: people like they have this sing like this right old
Speaker 1: tick liquor. You know, it could shoot the tick off
Speaker 1: a possum, or can split bullets on hatchet heads of twos.
Speaker 1: It's like, it would be so nice to be able
Speaker 1: to go back in time to see Daniel Boone and
Speaker 1: his compatriots. I remember, like if you read of that
Speaker 1: that account, there are accounts that people would complain about
Speaker 1: um people out in the settlements, how they would just
Speaker 1: shoot all day long, how lazy they were because if
Speaker 1: they weren't out hunting, they would just shoot. But to
Speaker 1: go back and like what kind of groups with those
Speaker 1: guys actually throwing it would have been interesting because the
Speaker 1: mythology is this like real you know, these like super
Speaker 1: accurate heart shot every time. But when you think about
Speaker 1: the inconsistencies of all the equipment, it must have been
Speaker 1: some sloppy ass shooting back then, Like there's no way
Speaker 1: they could have gotten good, Like how good could you
Speaker 1: get when every shot is just something so different? I
Speaker 1: don't know. In some ways I had inclined to agree
Speaker 1: just because of the quality, But then you had a
Speaker 1: lot of guys that were true craftsmen that could build.
Speaker 1: I mean that's why who built the rifle mattered, because
Speaker 1: you had guys that you said, we're throwing stuff together.
Speaker 1: But you look at guys that try and recreate some
Speaker 1: of that stuff, and they're using modern day C and
Speaker 1: C machines in the whole line yards and like, I'm
Speaker 1: having trouble getting to where this guy was consistently kind
Speaker 1: of making things, you know, handmade, like trying to replicate
Speaker 1: how they did this. It's pretty wild. And then if
Speaker 1: you go back and you look at the Civil War,
Speaker 1: you look at some of these some of these different
Speaker 1: rifles that these guys were shooting. I mean, you had
Speaker 1: guys that were shooting eight nine hundred yards in the
Speaker 1: Civil War that we're taking some of these you know
Speaker 1: creed More rifles and stuff, and they were sniping guys
Speaker 1: crazy distances. And or you go to the black Powder
Speaker 1: the Buffalo rifles, and you look at what those guys shoot,
Speaker 1: you know, like they have the quickly shoots and they
Speaker 1: shoot these black power It's crazy. What and they're doing
Speaker 1: the same thing. Those guys are you know, pouring those
Speaker 1: are say boats and you know they're not shooting round balls.
Speaker 1: But it's it's still sometimes I wonder. I'm like, I
Speaker 1: wonder if they like did have this figured out, if
Speaker 1: it's you know, like like the Pyramids, or like, I
Speaker 1: don't know how they did it, but here's the result,
Speaker 1: you know, if they were legit or if it's like
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of oh yeah, he was a
Speaker 1: great shot. He could you know, shoot the takeoff of Bossum.
Speaker 1: It's like there's a there's a thing in group at
Speaker 1: fifty yards and never else you're shooting a foot group,
Speaker 1: you know, Like I don't know, there's a thing called
Speaker 1: the Battle of Adobe Walls, when the bad at the
Speaker 1: Battle of Adobe Walls. It was a bunch of buffalo
Speaker 1: hunters down on the Southern Plains when they weren't supposed
Speaker 1: to hunt south of the Southern Railroad, but they started
Speaker 1: going down there and they got into a skirmish. I
Speaker 1: can't remember what tribes they got into a skirmish with,
Speaker 1: but there's this legend this guy making a shot, a
Speaker 1: thousand plus yard shot, and I was like, how much
Speaker 1: did he walk out and be like, haile married it
Speaker 1: and happened to hit someone, and how much did he'd
Speaker 1: be like here's what's gonna happen. It seems like hyperbole
Speaker 1: was pretty prevalent in that culture too, So this shot
Speaker 1: was substantiated by multiple sources because there was the the
Speaker 1: adobe walls thing. Yeah, and they credited that shot with
Speaker 1: ending the battle. But I'm saying, how much, like how
Speaker 1: much did he just go out and wing one out there?
Speaker 1: And he was more surprising and more surprised than the
Speaker 1: guy he hit. And I believe those it wasn't because
Speaker 1: it was like a little trade center, right, like trading post.
Speaker 1: And one of the accounts that I read like those
Speaker 1: are brand new rifles, like somebody brought them in to
Speaker 1: then sell and when. Um, because this was in Empire
Speaker 1: of the Summer Moon Ranche. I know it from Dan Flore.
Speaker 1: He's talking about it, and the way Dan Flores presents
Speaker 1: it is from the buffalo hunter's perspective, it was this
Speaker 1: long shot that's so stunned their adversaries. Um, like the
Speaker 1: hand of God is against us, We're just gonna go ahead.
Speaker 1: From the tribal perspective, someone had on the way to
Speaker 1: the battle, someone had killed a skunk and was taboo
Speaker 1: to kill a skunk ahead of a battle, or taboo
Speaker 1: to kill a skunk in general, and when like that
Speaker 1: man fell, it was affirmation that someone had violated a taboo.
Speaker 1: And that's their perspective on why that battle went south.
Speaker 1: So I asked Dan Floorys, I'm like, who was right,
Speaker 1: and he's like, both of them. You got hit viable
Speaker 1: and that's the derivation of like getting skunked. Right. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure, but I like it. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I've heard the same It all plays out the exact
Speaker 1: same way, obviously, but I've heard, um there's a uh,
Speaker 1: you know, a very reputable shaman type character who said,
Speaker 1: you know, we go do this tech, I guarantee nobody
Speaker 1: will get touched. And then at the very outbreak, obviously
Speaker 1: somebody gets touched and in a baby way, and it
Speaker 1: was like, well all over, good, mojo is is gone. Shot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could have been a skunk, could have been whatever.
Speaker 1: There were two battles of adobe walls, and it was
Speaker 1: a very small amount of hide hunters defending like a
Speaker 1: little encampment from hundreds of adversaries, but with high falute
Speaker 1: and equipment, yeah, like big fifty col uh buffalo rifles.
Speaker 1: And in the one account I read, they were like
Speaker 1: brand new in box like trade goods. Right, So then
Speaker 1: like break about boys, we're under attack? Yeah, what did
Speaker 1: we missed? Steth? What is there? More? Is there like
Speaker 1: any uh marksmanship business that I should ask you about it?
Speaker 1: Never did? I want to ask about big boar pistols.
Speaker 1: How much experience do you have with them? Not a lot?
Speaker 1: I've shot? Uh. I went up to Alaska just in
Speaker 1: actually during college. I had a buddy that was a
Speaker 1: little bit younger than me that just graduated high school.
Speaker 1: So I first started college, we went up to Alaska.
Speaker 1: So I bought a forty four mag put them hardcast bullets,
Speaker 1: like we're going to bear a country. Time to get
Speaker 1: a little bigger peciooter. So I shot that a little bit.
Speaker 1: I've shot like four sixties and some of that stuff,
Speaker 1: but not a lot. You know, is it a lot
Speaker 1: harder or is it still just in your head the
Speaker 1: fact that you're dealing with this thing that just barks
Speaker 1: and makes your hand hurt so bad? Similar concepts, you know,
Speaker 1: It's it's definitely different. It's like driving a race. Carver's
Speaker 1: driving a you know, I don't know something. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: like it's a little different, but yeah, similar ideas, you know,
Speaker 1: breaking the trigger, keeping your keeping your sightes tight and
Speaker 1: breaking the trigger, and yeah, it's similar concepts, but it
Speaker 1: takes some muscle memory to get past the blast for sure,
Speaker 1: because like what you're speaking to is like a forty
Speaker 1: four mag with a four inch barrel. Yeah, how uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: how uncomfortable it is. And then how stunningly inaccurate one is. Well,
Speaker 1: they can be accurate, but I've always thought of those.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, how light can we make a
Speaker 1: four fifty four so that it's easy to carry in
Speaker 1: bear country? Right? And then you're shooting the or a
Speaker 1: five hundred and it weighs, you know, two pounds versus
Speaker 1: like the four that it should weigh. Plus It's like,
Speaker 1: to me, that's what we call a get off me,
Speaker 1: bro weapon. You know, it's like the bears right here.
Speaker 1: It's like it's me to you, I just gotta be
Speaker 1: able to get that thing to bark and get it
Speaker 1: out and shoot at ten ft. I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna be go out and trying to smoke a bear
Speaker 1: with that thing at a hundred fifty yards. I might
Speaker 1: be getting this story wrong with someone was telling me
Speaker 1: about they had these They had a bunch of guides
Speaker 1: who carry revolvers short barreled revolvers is bear protection. It
Speaker 1: did something where they put him at the bottom of
Speaker 1: a hill and some guy rolls a basketball down the hill. Okay,
Speaker 1: I think I could be MESSI do you know this
Speaker 1: story before hit and that's the thing you're supposed to
Speaker 1: hit this bear in the head with as he's coming
Speaker 1: down on you. Well and until your point about protection,
Speaker 1: So if you're shooting a hunting pistol or something, then
Speaker 1: that's stiff. You don't put a scope hunt or maybe
Speaker 1: that's different. And I've I was talking to a kid
Speaker 1: whose dad used to hunt with a with a pistol
Speaker 1: and he was one of those guys that shot the
Speaker 1: big board like the four sixty rowlands and all those
Speaker 1: the wheel guns. And his dad, I guess, was one
Speaker 1: of those pistol arrow types that he just he's put
Speaker 1: tens of thousands around to it's one gun. And he
Speaker 1: was telling stories. They were breaking him. He need break
Speaker 1: cleay pages on hundred yards with this thing all the time.
Speaker 1: You know, rabbit would come around now and he just
Speaker 1: smoked this rabbit, you know, And there's tons of stories
Speaker 1: throughout the frontier days of pistol arrows that could just
Speaker 1: make incredible you like at Bob Munden, how fast that
Speaker 1: guy could draw and shoot. It's like you can't even
Speaker 1: see him. It's like ba boom, Like okay, I guess
Speaker 1: it's legit. You know Ross pistol shot. Well yeah, but
Speaker 1: you know, like as Bob Ross is slow, this guy's fast.
Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, polar opposites, you know. And uh,
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, my dad used to go shoot. He
Speaker 1: went and shot a brown bear in Canada. Last guy,
Speaker 1: I guess, and he shot the singing like a hundred
Speaker 1: forty yards. It was standing up and he shot right
Speaker 1: in the center of the chest. But he said they
Speaker 1: went out with the guide, you know. I mean, kids
Speaker 1: is telling stories, but I'm sure you know he can
Speaker 1: back them up. And other guys like, gah, that's dude,
Speaker 1: I've never seen make shoot pistol like this iron sights.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna go site in our hunting rifle and
Speaker 1: his guys kind of the same way to put up
Speaker 1: a paper plate. Shoot, you know, three shots on it. Yep,
Speaker 1: they're all on the plate. We're good to go. And
Speaker 1: this guy sting with a pistol. He's like a you
Speaker 1: shooting on a hunt a brown bear with a pistol. Boy,
Speaker 1: you know what kind of thing. He's like, sure, So
Speaker 1: he gets up there off hand, shoots four rounds I
Speaker 1: think on this plate or five rounds. I don't think
Speaker 1: the five rounds. Goes up there and it's like a
Speaker 1: four inch group on this plate a hundred yards, and
Speaker 1: he's like, literally, he shot a better group off hand
Speaker 1: with his pistol than the guy did shooting off the hood.
Speaker 1: And so the guys like, well, I guess. So there's
Speaker 1: guys out there, and I've known a couple that they
Speaker 1: shoot big bore stuff and take crazy accurate. But for me,
Speaker 1: my the gun I carry is a clock ten mill
Speaker 1: hardcast bullets because sometimes volumes volume is better than one.
Speaker 1: I get one off for the five hund to get
Speaker 1: that thing out, like I can. I can shut a
Speaker 1: clock pretty quick. So and I got ten rounds in
Speaker 1: that thing. So if I got a bear this to
Speaker 1: start chewing on me, I can get three or four
Speaker 1: off hopefully before I get knocked down. And so that's
Speaker 1: that's where I'm at. It's a it's a platform I'm
Speaker 1: used to and what are you doing this fall? I
Speaker 1: want to get together and hunt, like where I have
Speaker 1: tag and you don't watch for bears. You got it
Speaker 1: guessing it's going to be somewhere towards the direction over there,
Speaker 1: over there. That's the thing man bears have been. You know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of areas I've hunted and been around
Speaker 1: and I've never hunted. You know. You get down to
Speaker 1: like tom On or Basin or some of those areas.
Speaker 1: Guys that won't hunt there anymore, they're like, I I
Speaker 1: used to hunt there every year, but we were it's
Speaker 1: not if you run into a bear, It's like, what's
Speaker 1: the situation gonna be like? And it's every year. They're like,
Speaker 1: it's not worth it. You're walking out in your head lamp.
Speaker 1: It's like, you know, it's always kind of that, oh
Speaker 1: there's something in the night. It's like, well there is,
Speaker 1: you know, and like you're gonna run into them at
Speaker 1: some point, Like yeah, outfitters that don't work in certain
Speaker 1: areas because they're still because you're so bad on feeding
Speaker 1: it just as hard the bears. Just like what are
Speaker 1: you gonna do about a buddy? Yeah, you can't hurt me,
Speaker 1: now what you do about it now, you got any
Speaker 1: more you want to hit? Yeah, well, we had an
Speaker 1: email coming about the definition of loaded. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: that would have been saving to talk about. Well, it's legal,
Speaker 1: it's a legal question. It is. Well, but no, because
Speaker 1: the weekend I've posed it to a couple of different
Speaker 1: people and uh, everybody's kind of got two answers. That's
Speaker 1: a good question. So he's a the guy's a lawyer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's a gap. Yeah, you want me to
Speaker 1: spell it out? Yeah, I read this. I actually saved
Speaker 1: this to talk about I didn't get to it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she the I was trying to do my best here
Speaker 1: to make it simple for when she was in the courtroom,
Speaker 1: and I think that it was it came down to
Speaker 1: the definition of loaded, because too um for the perpetrator
Speaker 1: to be charged with aggravated assault, the gun had to
Speaker 1: be loaded. So then they came down to, well, what
Speaker 1: is loaded, because if it's not, then the punishment is
Speaker 1: not gonna be severe or the charge won't be as
Speaker 1: severe as if it is. And she says, well, the
Speaker 1: mag was full, and the other guy says, well, no,
Speaker 1: if it didn't have one in the chamber. So it
Speaker 1: wasn't loaded, So it's not you know, like he was saying,
Speaker 1: I'll shoot you. But if he actually can't shoot because
Speaker 1: he doesn't have a loaded weapon, then that's where like
Speaker 1: the gray area was. So she's like, dude, I for
Speaker 1: sure thought that you know, low you know in the
Speaker 1: magazine means loaded. And she went home and has been,
Speaker 1: you know, talking to other people about it and everybody,
Speaker 1: and she seems to be Uh. She wants to argue,
Speaker 1: wasn't She wants to argue that her client's gun wasn't
Speaker 1: loaded because he didn't have one chambered. No, she's saying
Speaker 1: that it was what she wants whoever where she stands
Speaker 1: on the case. But she's wanting to argue that having
Speaker 1: it having a loaded magazine counts for a loaded weapon.
Speaker 1: I think when you're talking about pointing it at a person,
Speaker 1: if you're out hunting, and he said, is that thing loaded? No,
Speaker 1: having some of the magazine, it is not loaded if
Speaker 1: it's not cham bird the minute I pointed at you,
Speaker 1: like if I point a revolver at you and it
Speaker 1: winds up that I have an empty cylinder in there,
Speaker 1: and and uh, and I got an empty cylinder and
Speaker 1: he says that loaded, and I'm like, no, when I'm
Speaker 1: pointing at you, I feel that it's a different it's
Speaker 1: a completely different set of rules. Well, what's the definition for,
Speaker 1: like for what you can I was just just how
Speaker 1: you I was just looking up the So we have
Speaker 1: different aspects, right, So you can carry, you know, you
Speaker 1: have different methods of carry. So you can carry loaded
Speaker 1: round in the chamber on safe, load round the chamber,
Speaker 1: off save loaded, no round in the chamber. So you've
Speaker 1: got different ways that you carry in the military. So
Speaker 1: like you're on a post and like, well you can't
Speaker 1: carry with the chamber, but you can carry it loaded
Speaker 1: or you carry can't hear it with the magazine period.
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I think it's gonna depend on
Speaker 1: the definition. I don't think Montone Code has anything that
Speaker 1: deals with that. I was just looking it up. Well,
Speaker 1: states person, she was in Idaho. I would be surprised
Speaker 1: if they have a definition of a loaded firearms. There
Speaker 1: is something to challenge, man. But there is some law
Speaker 1: and I would have to look it up that deals
Speaker 1: with concealed carry because there there's a law that says
Speaker 1: basically you can like brandishing a firearm is defined, and
Speaker 1: I don't think they've ever defined whether or not you
Speaker 1: know what loaded means or if you're branising a firearm,
Speaker 1: if it matters if it's loaded or not. It's there's
Speaker 1: kind of that's the only thing I've ever seen broken.
Speaker 1: Now you're saying in the military they use the term
Speaker 1: loaded for both situations, right, loaded in the magazine or
Speaker 1: loaded in the chamber. Well, they basically color code them,
Speaker 1: so you can carry red or you can carry black,
Speaker 1: and black means this, red means this. So lord, it's
Speaker 1: too broad, right, It's just here's the definition for it.
Speaker 1: How chambered is a better? Yea makes sense. Yeah, loaded
Speaker 1: is too broad in the hunting context as well, because
Speaker 1: guy levels off, let's get let's go with the pump
Speaker 1: action shotgun. Guy levels off on him with a pump
Speaker 1: action shotgun, and he's got tube full, none in the chamber,
Speaker 1: and then someone later wants to be well, it wasn't
Speaker 1: really low. It could have been like I'd be like,
Speaker 1: if I was a lawyer, I would say, no, one's
Speaker 1: ever been killed by a bullet in the magazine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's not a If there's not a round in the chamber,
Speaker 1: that gun is not gonna kill you. You just said
Speaker 1: it's loaded or chambered. Right, it's loaded. If there's any
Speaker 1: it's one of the magazine, it's chambered. If there's one
Speaker 1: of the chamber, right, that's that's what I would say. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm good. I'm trying to jump into multiple perspective trying.
Speaker 1: I'm taking the perspective of someone having aimed at me,
Speaker 1: who would later be like, I don't want to parse
Speaker 1: hairs here. You loaded the aid of the damn thing
Speaker 1: at me, Like, let's stop it. I could stop it aimed,
Speaker 1: but I could also see the point where in the court,
Speaker 1: like if I was getting if I was in trouble
Speaker 1: for having done that to someone else, I could imagine
Speaker 1: myself arguing very vehemently that it was in fact not loaded. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you say, the level of the threat is if
Speaker 1: if you have to do that, you know, pump a
Speaker 1: shotgun rather than pull a trigger. The level of threat
Speaker 1: is different than both those like, it wasn't loaded, It
Speaker 1: wasn't loaded. It was loaded, but wasn't chambers. I think
Speaker 1: you have to you have to lawyer that life is
Speaker 1: hanging on the definition of this word. Not like they're
Speaker 1: going to get capital. No, I'd like to think that
Speaker 1: there was a were really he was in the chamber
Speaker 1: and they're like waiting to to to give him the drip,
Speaker 1: pending on what we just what we decided. No, she
Speaker 1: was just curious more about the common usage in our
Speaker 1: in our circles. In our circle, it would be that
Speaker 1: it was not loaded. I'll say that it would be
Speaker 1: that there's not around in the chamber. It's not likely
Speaker 1: I would say to you, is that thing loaded? And
Speaker 1: you say no, I'm thinking, very well, have a magazine
Speaker 1: in it. But there's nothing changed. Man. I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, this was twenty years ago I took hunter safety,
Speaker 1: but I feel like I learned learned it different. I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, this is in Washington. Maybe the rules are different,
Speaker 1: but I remember being told you cannot have a loaded
Speaker 1: gun in a car. And you know what, in that case,
Speaker 1: you're right. In that case, it can't have a magazine
Speaker 1: because act And so I'm so when when Yanni brought
Speaker 1: this up the other day, I'm like, well, I mean, like,
Speaker 1: if if you're coming back from hunting, you get pulled over,
Speaker 1: officer asks do you have a gun in the car? Yes?
Speaker 1: Or isn't loaded? You. You better be able to say no,
Speaker 1: and you better have the bullets around. That's a good point, right.
Speaker 1: We just got a letter from a woman who went
Speaker 1: her family was all going fishing. This is an Idaho
Speaker 1: story to her family's all going fishing and they go
Speaker 1: down to a park and the dad's fishing with the
Speaker 1: kids and she's reading her book. It's something or another
Speaker 1: happens where someone's got to leave and they give her
Speaker 1: the rod. And so she's just holding a rod on
Speaker 1: the grass, holding a rod, and someone comes up and
Speaker 1: checks her license. She doesn't have a license, so I'm
Speaker 1: not fishing. But I'm like, yes, I'm Ada Laike holding
Speaker 1: the rob. I didn't fish. And they give her a citation,
Speaker 1: but she argues that court gets thrown out. Really, yeah,
Speaker 1: I didn't fish. I had a rod at a lake
Speaker 1: because whatever her husband said, hold the rod, I think,
Speaker 1: and he came up. She and this is her claim,
Speaker 1: is that this individual came up the second she touched
Speaker 1: that rod. Got you. Oh, well, that's where you go
Speaker 1: back to the you know, one of the other things
Speaker 1: that moonlight as a reserve police officer, So I get
Speaker 1: to play with some of this on the other side
Speaker 1: and then one thing they talked about a lot when
Speaker 1: you're looking at how to enforce laws, because I mean,
Speaker 1: there's obviously ambiguity in a lot of areas, and as
Speaker 1: a legislator, I don't want there to be strict clarity
Speaker 1: where you're gonna go through and define everything down to
Speaker 1: every level, because then you're gonna have double the size
Speaker 1: of code. I would rather live in a state where
Speaker 1: people use common sense and say, hey, you know this,
Speaker 1: this lawsayes don't do this. So this is obviously what
Speaker 1: it means, so just don't do that. But that's where
Speaker 1: you talk about the spirit of the law versus a
Speaker 1: letter of the laws, like what is this law designed
Speaker 1: to do? And so as law enforcement, whether that's you know,
Speaker 1: fishing wildlife and you know, we had some hits with that,
Speaker 1: like tagged immediately upon kill. Well that got changed before
Speaker 1: moving it because the guy got a ticket and he's like, well,
Speaker 1: I haven't moved it. We're gutting it. But I didn't
Speaker 1: take it. He's like said, don't what is this actually accomplished?
Speaker 1: If I don't take this thing now versus five minutes
Speaker 1: from now, it doesn't do anything. The idea is that
Speaker 1: you can't move it around and transport it, because then
Speaker 1: if you get caught, you're like, oh, I was gonna
Speaker 1: tag it. It's like, but you didn't. So I think
Speaker 1: that's where you get to this. Like you said, is
Speaker 1: it unloaded? It's like everybody knows, like, hey, can you
Speaker 1: shoot me with this gun? Or is it taking apart
Speaker 1: and put in a bag. That's kind of the definition
Speaker 1: where if you're pointing it at me, it's like, well
Speaker 1: to have around in the chamber. So I think a
Speaker 1: lot of that comes down to interpretation of letter of
Speaker 1: the law or the spirit of the law. It's gonna
Speaker 1: have to figured out speaking a letter to the law
Speaker 1: boy that we wanted to hit on. And this is
Speaker 1: like a real I can already like if people want
Speaker 1: to stop listening, they can go ahead, they can go ahead,
Speaker 1: But I was about to drone on about some we're
Speaker 1: gonna try. Yeah, there's something we wanted because the reason
Speaker 1: the reason we have an obligation to talk about this
Speaker 1: is because we invited We invited it. We did from lawyers.
Speaker 1: I'm glad we did. Yeah. I heard from a lot
Speaker 1: of very very kind and knowledgeable people on this and
Speaker 1: really helped my understanding. It's good enough as a bunch
Speaker 1: of lawyers out there. Do you hear from any assholes? No,
Speaker 1: Sam got glowing reviews, good good Joe. Joe mentioned one
Speaker 1: that was that was a little like maybe distasteful. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't if it doesn't have anything substantive, I don't
Speaker 1: really need to see it. The lawyers that rode in
Speaker 1: and I read, I read a handful of him last night.
Speaker 1: Lawyers that wrote in, we're saying almost unanimously that Sam
Speaker 1: did a fair job of walking through the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: case Doctor, which people are probably sticking hearing about. I
Speaker 1: got a letter of correction from Ben Long who said
Speaker 1: that he in fact did not tell me not to
Speaker 1: talk about it. He said, just talk about it carefully. Um,
Speaker 1: but in this we had a thing. So I'm gonna
Speaker 1: try to bring people up to speed in some kind
Speaker 1: of efficient fashion. So I just want to touch on
Speaker 1: this correction, because this is the most detailed crack can
Speaker 1: we've ever done. If it's in fact, it can be
Speaker 1: counted as a correction. The Supreme Court is hearing a case.
Speaker 1: They already heard the case, they haven't decided on. It
Speaker 1: would be Um. It has to do with if a tribe.
Speaker 1: In this case, we're talking about the Crow tribe. The tribe,
Speaker 1: the Crow tribe has a treaty with the United States
Speaker 1: from the eight hundreds that allows them to hunt on
Speaker 1: their own reservation but also on unoccupied lands outside of
Speaker 1: their reservation. And there's been a lot of ambiguity about
Speaker 1: what unoccupied lands means. Does that mean any national forest,
Speaker 1: national park, BLM land, state land? Like, what does it mean?
Speaker 1: And it's people felt like this had been settled, but
Speaker 1: it's not settled, and that a member of the Crow
Speaker 1: tribe went out and kills some elk off of his reservation,
Speaker 1: he got in trouble with the game ward and his
Speaker 1: hunting companions pled guilty. He's saying, I'm not guilty because
Speaker 1: my treaty gives me the right to hunt on the
Speaker 1: Bighorn National Forest because it's unoccupied land. And so it
Speaker 1: goes to um it elevated up to where the Supreme
Speaker 1: Court is going to hear this and make some kind
Speaker 1: of decision, possibly to upset current understandings of whether or
Speaker 1: not the National Forest in Wyoming could be regarded as
Speaker 1: on occupied landfair Okay, In this we were talking about um.
Speaker 1: How this individual when he first gets in trouble for
Speaker 1: his poaching violation. He goes in front of a court
Speaker 1: and the court tells him, don't tell me about your
Speaker 1: don't tell me about your treaty rights. You're not allowed
Speaker 1: to argue that you were exercising treaty rights. And I
Speaker 1: was like, how can you prevent someone from making an art? Like,
Speaker 1: how can you prevent someone from like making their argument?
Speaker 1: And a bunch of lawyers, some lawyers rolled into say, like,
Speaker 1: what it is that makes it? That would be a
Speaker 1: situation where you're not allowed to give your to make
Speaker 1: the case you want to make in front of a judge. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think and we muddled our way through it,
Speaker 1: and I think we were pretty close. But uh, a
Speaker 1: lot of these these people wrote in with some some
Speaker 1: really helpful corrections just from my own understanding of this.
Speaker 1: And so how that worked was that Herrera's lawyers, prior
Speaker 1: to going to trial the would be the convicted poacher,
Speaker 1: yes or yes, before he stood trial, they they sought
Speaker 1: to have all charges dropped. They said, we have this treaty,
Speaker 1: need to drop all charges. He didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1: So that is is something called a motion in leimon
Speaker 1: a um. But and what that means is um, it's
Speaker 1: settling issues before a trial by either asking the court
Speaker 1: to pre approve the admissibility of something they planned to
Speaker 1: present evidence or an argument, or asking the court to
Speaker 1: exclude something that they don't want their opponent to present.
Speaker 1: So prior to the trial, his lawyer said, hey, you can't,
Speaker 1: you can't even try us for this. He's got a
Speaker 1: he's got this treaty to support it. But then the
Speaker 1: prosecution says, no, that has already been settled. It's already
Speaker 1: been decided in the Repsist decision that we mentioned from
Speaker 1: the late nineties, it's already been decided that the Crow
Speaker 1: Indians do not have a right to hunt on the
Speaker 1: Bighorn National Forest. Specifically, the Tent Circuit ruled on that
Speaker 1: that issue is settled. You cannot relitigate an issue that
Speaker 1: is settled, got you, and so so saying don't bring
Speaker 1: that all up again. Yeah, Rhodor decided that if you've
Speaker 1: got something else to say, go ahead and say it,
Speaker 1: but don't lay that on me. Yeah. So in court then,
Speaker 1: because he pled not guilty, he had to make a
Speaker 1: different argument, which he decided. They decided to go with
Speaker 1: I didn't know where he was, didn't realize that he'd
Speaker 1: crossed into Wyoming. And they're like, well, you're a game
Speaker 1: word and at the time you should have known you're guilty.
Speaker 1: But then after that they appealed and to you know,
Speaker 1: the Wyoming Appellate Court. They um upheld the prior decision.
Speaker 1: They appealed to the Wyoming Supreme Court, they declined it,
Speaker 1: and then they appealed to the United States Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's a little amazing because I've
Speaker 1: been reading a lot about this and the United Supate
Speaker 1: State Supreme Court has something like seven or eight thousand
Speaker 1: cases appealed to it every year, and they select like eight,
Speaker 1: and so it's it's a little it's a little interesting
Speaker 1: that they were able to get there. But one of
Speaker 1: the one of the things the Supreme Court is looking at,
Speaker 1: how many cases of about eight it's crazy in the
Speaker 1: same year because they're also here in the case about
Speaker 1: the guy who has the pistol permit in New York.
Speaker 1: He's got a pistol permit for his home that prohibits
Speaker 1: him from taking his pistol out of his home, and
Speaker 1: he's saying, why do my second amendment rights end at
Speaker 1: my doorstep. And they're hearing that case too. This is
Speaker 1: big year for hunters for in the Supreme Court. So
Speaker 1: so that so the Supreme Court is interested in this
Speaker 1: very thing, and so you know kind of um, they're
Speaker 1: interested in issue preclusion um where where it's it's a
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's this judicial doctrine that they're they're
Speaker 1: not really sure if if that was the right decision
Speaker 1: to not allow him to relitigate a settled issue. And
Speaker 1: and as we know the problem with this is that
Speaker 1: there's another Supreme Court the mill Locks versus Minnesota decision
Speaker 1: that kind of shook the underpinnings of the repsist decision.
Speaker 1: It didn't overturn it, but it it uh, it undermined it.
Speaker 1: So they're they're looking they're looking at this, this this
Speaker 1: idea of whether you can relitigate something if if you will.
Speaker 1: There's been holes poked into it. Like like an example
Speaker 1: I was laying out as let's say you lived in
Speaker 1: some situation where they said no one like we've decided
Speaker 1: that it is never justifiable to kill someone in self defense.
Speaker 1: So then you kill someone in self defense and you
Speaker 1: go up a murder trial, and you're like, but dude,
Speaker 1: we need to revisit the idea of whether it's okay
Speaker 1: to kill someone's self defense. Like, I'm not done talking
Speaker 1: about that. And this is kind of a little bit
Speaker 1: of what's it is it is? And um, so if
Speaker 1: we covered that, there was one more email that I
Speaker 1: found was very interesting and provides a, you know, a
Speaker 1: good perspective on on this case and perhaps where it
Speaker 1: will go. Another thing I learned is that this this
Speaker 1: decision is likely to be issued in June. We were
Speaker 1: going like, oh, well, I heard it was this summer,
Speaker 1: Maybe it be later, but it's the Supreme Court is
Speaker 1: going to go in on recess after that, so they
Speaker 1: usually issue a lot of their their rulings prior to
Speaker 1: going on recess. Thought from it, Yeah, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: obsessed with the Horari Wyoming case. This is the one
Speaker 1: you're talking about right here. UM somewhat, So I was.
Speaker 1: I was thinking about this because treaty lack came up.
Speaker 1: So in UM I sent the Judiciary Committee and we
Speaker 1: had the hearing for the CSK T water compact. Um
Speaker 1: my second um two sessions ago, I guess, and it's
Speaker 1: huge and what they argued was that the tribe has
Speaker 1: that's confederated right. So the confederation Cutiny tribe, which is
Speaker 1: the Flathead basically area. So they had a ruling where
Speaker 1: they they redid the water compact. So they were going
Speaker 1: through and the water is a huge issue in Montone Age,
Speaker 1: you guys, I'm sure are aware. And what they said
Speaker 1: is that the tribe had primary water rights or we're
Speaker 1: trying to establish primary water rights even back to you know,
Speaker 1: some of these claims are in the eighteen hundreds that
Speaker 1: people filed for their water rights, and they're saying, well,
Speaker 1: the treaty was like eighteen I don't remember the year
Speaker 1: off top of my head, but it's it was prior.
Speaker 1: The treaty was signed prior to these water rights, so
Speaker 1: they're saying these should be a higher priority. And the
Speaker 1: language that they used in the treaty to make this
Speaker 1: claim was that the treaty granted the tribal members the
Speaker 1: right to hunt and fish in common with the population.
Speaker 1: So what they're saying is, well, you have the right
Speaker 1: to go fishing on any land that anybody else can
Speaker 1: go fishing on. And it, you know, it gets into
Speaker 1: the nuances of what does that mean exactly? But the
Speaker 1: argument that they made was, if you have the right
Speaker 1: to hunt and fish on a stream over in like
Speaker 1: and we're talking like a big timber area. So this
Speaker 1: is how far out the water rights went. They said,
Speaker 1: if you have a right to hunt and fish, then
Speaker 1: you have a right to to mandate that there's an
Speaker 1: appropriate amount of water to protect the fisheries in those areas.
Speaker 1: So that irrigators who might have a priority date that's
Speaker 1: you know, in the eight hundreds for their water rights,
Speaker 1: then can be argued that well, that the treaty prohibits
Speaker 1: them from using water that could then affect the industream flows,
Speaker 1: you know, two miles away, because they have the right
Speaker 1: to fish there, and if you lower the water to
Speaker 1: where it's no longer um beneficial to the fisheries, than
Speaker 1: you're obsurfing that. And so that was the argument that
Speaker 1: they made, and the treaty went through, and it was
Speaker 1: compounded with the fact that the Montana Constitution says the
Speaker 1: waters of Montana are owned by the people of Montana,
Speaker 1: and so the treaty the way that it's written is
Speaker 1: since the treaty or the Water Compact is actually states
Speaker 1: that the water is held in trust by the federal government,
Speaker 1: so it's not actually owned directly by the tribes. It's
Speaker 1: owned through the federal government. So then it's like, wait
Speaker 1: a second, our constitution says that we have that we
Speaker 1: own our water. How can the federal government then own
Speaker 1: our water? So it was a huge issue, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of nuances, but it's kind of the
Speaker 1: same argument. It's like, well, what is the tribal what
Speaker 1: is the treaty actually grant you? Does it grant you
Speaker 1: the right to have this? And so that's a that's
Speaker 1: a great lead in. It's a huge, huge, Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a huge issue and people are vehement on both sides
Speaker 1: of it. So yeah, and so this other one I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about is exactly that. It's like what
Speaker 1: did the treaty and and and this guy uh he
Speaker 1: he says, there's a recent recent law graduate and just
Speaker 1: took the bar last week, but he did study Indian
Speaker 1: law and wanted to explain something that they felt like
Speaker 1: we missed. And so he explains that the idea of
Speaker 1: canons of construction, they're basically rules that like underpin laws
Speaker 1: and understanding of of laws such that you know later
Speaker 1: when they're brought up again. You can understand, you know,
Speaker 1: understand where where they're coming from. And so the the
Speaker 1: the cannonate of construction for federal Indian law comes from
Speaker 1: Supreme Court in eighteen thirty Supreme Court decision eighteen thirty two.
Speaker 1: So this is even prior to that that treaty being signed.
Speaker 1: But there's something there's a quote, a concurring opinion from
Speaker 1: Justice McLean that says, the language used in treaties with
Speaker 1: the Indians should never be construed to their prejudice. How
Speaker 1: the words of the treaty were understood by this unlettered people,
Speaker 1: rather than their critical meaning, should form the rule of construction.
Speaker 1: So they like the understanding. So it's it's it's what
Speaker 1: they thought it meant at the time. What the natives
Speaker 1: thought it meant at the time is what matters, not
Speaker 1: what our modern understanding of that word or phrase means.
Speaker 1: So this gets at the So we were just talking
Speaker 1: about one issue in the Supreme Court of issue preclusion,
Speaker 1: and this is the other issue that they're discussing as
Speaker 1: unoccupied lands. And so this guy is suggesting this is
Speaker 1: interesting too because we had brought up the context of
Speaker 1: the time previously as far as where there are animals,
Speaker 1: and at that time, there were no animals on those lands,
Speaker 1: So in that context what was understood at the time.
Speaker 1: And we like, well, that's not part of it because
Speaker 1: there's there's no al interesting that they would have thrown
Speaker 1: that in. But this of like you can hunt unoccupied
Speaker 1: lands as long as there's any game there, because it's like,
Speaker 1: why even add that in? Yeah, and and Wyoming argues
Speaker 1: explicitly that it was under they they think it was
Speaker 1: understood in these treaty arrangements that the game was going away,
Speaker 1: that it would soon be extirpated, and in fact it was.
Speaker 1: And and so they they saw that all these things
Speaker 1: as temporary arrangements, that that the the this was this
Speaker 1: is a transitional phase as the natives, as the crow,
Speaker 1: transitioned to an agrarian society. So Wyoming is like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: we saw they Yeah, this treaty was signed, but you
Speaker 1: can hunt until they're gone. Yeah, every everybody, everybody assumed
Speaker 1: that the land surrounding would become occupied quickly as states
Speaker 1: were established and settlers moved in, and you can hunt
Speaker 1: all this area as long as they're still game because
Speaker 1: it's going away fast. And in fact Elk were extirpated
Speaker 1: from the Big Horn Mountains shortly after the signature of
Speaker 1: that tree, and were brought back through very rigorous restocking efforts.
Speaker 1: I think another thing that the warrants pointing out is
Speaker 1: tribal members are obviously allowed to hunt um the same
Speaker 1: as any other resident nonresidents set law, So this is all.
Speaker 1: It's not like they can't hunt. It would be that
Speaker 1: they can hunt under the same guidelines that any other
Speaker 1: state resident or nonresident would come in and hunt. But
Speaker 1: this has to do with like an overlay, which is
Speaker 1: just specific tribal hunting rights specific the tribal members, yes,
Speaker 1: and and and the specific like tribal treaty hunting. It
Speaker 1: it's it's an important distinction for people to understand, because yes,
Speaker 1: natives can apply and draw these tags in the Big
Speaker 1: Horn Mountains in the in this area, but the tribal
Speaker 1: treaty hunting, which which occurs in many states, often exists
Speaker 1: on a different plane than state managed you know, normal hunting.
Speaker 1: It's it's it's often often in seasons are often not existent,
Speaker 1: bag limits are different. It's it's more like it's more
Speaker 1: like Alaska subsistence hunting than it than it fits within
Speaker 1: our you know, neat little program of of state managed wildlife.
Speaker 1: So are you good on clearing points? I think so
Speaker 1: we're gonna put it the rest. Let's put the rest.
Speaker 1: And in June you're gonna come on and tell us
Speaker 1: what happened, if it's a big deal or not. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean and and my my views continue to evolved.
Speaker 1: I said, I think I put it as a three
Speaker 1: or four last time, that it's going to change the
Speaker 1: world as we know it. Yeah, And and I think
Speaker 1: I might be more of a solid for even a
Speaker 1: five or six after some of these conversations I've had
Speaker 1: in the last couple of weeks. This could have major
Speaker 1: ramifications for game management. I I wouldn't say major, but
Speaker 1: I would say it could significant ramifications. All right, man, interesting,
Speaker 1: thank you? Anything to add? Joannie? I don't got the
Speaker 1: turkey calls in your pocket. Yeah, I'm I'm getting ready.
Speaker 1: We're lessing a month away. Ben and I are counting down.
Speaker 1: We're counting down April second. Now where we're going on
Speaker 1: the Rio grand, the Rio grand A, the Rio grand Turky. Okay, Seth,
Speaker 1: thanks for coming down, Manure. We're gonna have We're gonna
Speaker 1: probably have to call on you again for corrections and whatnot.
Speaker 1: I'll be around all right and thanks every How about
Speaker 1: some closing thoughts? Oh you want to hit the closer?
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily have one, but he presents the opportunity
Speaker 1: opportunities to closers. I know, but I want one for
Speaker 1: this video. Uh, Benny got a new concluders. That's a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure. You canna film me or film Steve
Speaker 1: while I conclude sure there's an important one on the
Speaker 1: Rio Grande because I forgot about that that overlaps with
Speaker 1: our Austin, Texas live podcast dates. Oh yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: good one. Doesn't overlap we go from there to to
Speaker 1: Austin for the live show. Well it's one plane ticket,
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah. What's the point. That's your concluder. I
Speaker 1: think that's just something to mention we're doing a big, fancy,
Speaker 1: super fun live podcast in Austin, Texas. Tickets for sale yet, Yep,
Speaker 1: they are, They are for sale. My concluider is as
Speaker 1: we were talking about shooting, I was thinking about all
Speaker 1: the movies I watched as a kid and all the
Speaker 1: bullshit shots that were made that were clearly not you know,
Speaker 1: I was thinking of Legends of the Falling some dove.
Speaker 1: I was thinking of Tombstone, Tombstone. I was thinking of
Speaker 1: all these movies quickly, all these like seminal movies at
Speaker 1: shape TOI I think about the West, where all there
Speaker 1: was at least a or a number of bullshit shots
Speaker 1: in each one of those. What I always hated was
Speaker 1: that somebody has a revolver and they shoot like eighteen times.
Speaker 1: There's a mel Gives a movie, The Patriot, where the
Speaker 1: red coat the officer, he has a muzzle loaded flint
Speaker 1: lock pistol and the dude is riding a horse like
Speaker 1: two yards down this creek and he just pulls up
Speaker 1: and boom, and the dude falls off his horse. And like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you ever watched all the buster scrugs or Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: almost a parody of good shooting. But that's a parody
Speaker 1: of like what's been done in the world in the
Speaker 1: realm of like Western shooting. Yeah, it's like a satire.
Speaker 1: But that's my conclude. Oh I got a concluder. Um,
Speaker 1: We've talked over the years a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: about a documentary that I did with zero point zero production,
Speaker 1: and um, you can watch it now. Go to stars
Speaker 1: in the sky film dot com. Make sure I get
Speaker 1: that right, stars in the sky film dot com. And
Speaker 1: then it's available for uh streaming and download on video.
Speaker 1: You can rent it, you can buy it, so check
Speaker 1: it out. Full length feature film available now. How was
Speaker 1: that for concluding, Yanni? Good job you wanta turn that
Speaker 1: came around and hit your own concluder stas, Thanks for coming,
Speaker 1: We appreciate my pleasure. Has got another way. He's raising
Speaker 1: his hand. No, he doesn't know, he's just raising his phone.
Speaker 1: Thanks everyone,