Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: When American astronauts Butch Wilmore and Sonny Williams boarded a
Speaker 2: Boeing Starliner spacecraft back in June, they were expecting to
Speaker 2: spend about a week on the International Space Station and
Speaker 2: then they'd fly home. But it's now the end of August,
Speaker 2: and Butch and Sunny are still up there. The Starliner
Speaker 2: spacecraft that delivered them to the ISS ran into some
Speaker 2: problems on the way up, and as NASA looked into
Speaker 2: what went wrong, it kept delaying the astronaut's return. Bloomberg
Speaker 2: Space reporter Lauren Grush was watching the drama unfold.
Speaker 3: As time wore on, we started to get the sunset. Okay,
Speaker 3: maybe NASA isn't so comfortable with bringing the Starliner crew
Speaker 3: home on Starliner.
Speaker 2: On Saturday, NASA administrator and former US Senator Bill Nelson
Speaker 2: announced that the ast wouldn't be making it home this
Speaker 2: summer or this fall.
Speaker 4: NASA has decided that Butch and Sunny will return with
Speaker 4: Crew nine next February.
Speaker 2: Next February, and not on a Boeing Starliner. The astronauts
Speaker 2: are scheduled to fly back with Boeing's chief rival in
Speaker 2: commercial space travel. Elon Musk's SpaceX.
Speaker 1: Faes fared for a decade or more so, to have
Speaker 1: Elon Musk, of all people, rescuing their crew is just
Speaker 1: really terrible optics.
Speaker 2: Julie Johnson is Bloomberg's Boeing beat reporter. Boeing can't seem
Speaker 2: to stay out of the news this year. First a
Speaker 2: commercial plane part fell off, a seven thirty seven Max,
Speaker 2: and now these astronauts are set to get a ride
Speaker 2: home from the company's fiercest competitor, at least as far
Speaker 2: as its space portfolio is concerned. This all might look
Speaker 2: like a win for SpaceX and a loss for Boeing,
Speaker 2: and it's the latest chapter in a battle for dominance
Speaker 2: in space travel. But there's a lot more at stake
Speaker 2: here than just a corporate rivalry. Today on the show,
Speaker 2: two astronauts, two companies, and one return mission. What the
Speaker 2: NASA astronaut saga means for Boeing, What it tells us
Speaker 2: about SpaceX's growing presence in the space travel industry, and
Speaker 2: how it could affect the US government's future ambitions beyond
Speaker 2: our planet. This is the Big Take DC Podcast. I'm
Speaker 2: Sarah Holder. It's been a particularly chaotic few weeks for
Speaker 2: space reporters like Lauren Grush months.
Speaker 3: Really, I mean years. How far back do we want
Speaker 3: to go with this mission?
Speaker 2: We'll start back in twenty fourteen when NASA chose companies
Speaker 2: for its commercial crew program.
Speaker 3: The Commercial Crew program was a bit of a radical
Speaker 3: chain for NASA, where they would act more like a customer.
Speaker 2: The idea was NASA would pay private companies to develop
Speaker 2: spacecraft to fly their astronauts to the ISS. For NASA,
Speaker 2: it meant spending less of its own resources developing and
Speaker 2: testing this tech, or relying less on Russian spacecraft, which
Speaker 2: was complicated for geopolitical reasons, and it was a good
Speaker 2: deal for the companies too.
Speaker 3: NASA said it would give a lump sum of money,
Speaker 3: kind of like seed investment, and once the capsules were complete,
Speaker 3: NASA would buy rides for its astronauts on those vehicles,
Speaker 3: but the companies would ultimately own the vehicles themselves so
Speaker 3: that they could then use them to turn a profit
Speaker 3: later by selling commercial tickets on their flights.
Speaker 2: At the time, there was one clear front runner in
Speaker 2: the commercial spacecraft industry, Boeing.
Speaker 1: Actually following is a space pioneer.
Speaker 2: That's Boeing reporter Julie Johnson.
Speaker 1: They were instrumental in the Apollo program in the sixties.
Speaker 1: They rescued the Saturn rocket at the time, the world's
Speaker 1: biggest rocket that was used to take astronauts to the Moon,
Speaker 1: and they're the crime contractor for the International Space Station,
Speaker 1: so they had definitely the advantages of an incumbent.
Speaker 2: When it came time for NASA to award its commercial
Speaker 2: crew contracts. Lauren says, there were some major players pushing
Speaker 2: for Boeing to get all of the money.
Speaker 3: I spoke with Lori Garver, who was a Deputy Administrator
Speaker 3: at the time, and she really spearheaded this program, and
Speaker 3: a lot of members of Congress, and then Boeing themselves
Speaker 3: and NASA management really lobbied hard for Boeing to be
Speaker 3: the only ones to receive the contract.
Speaker 2: According to Luri, but Lourie and others that NASA decided
Speaker 2: there should really be two providers in the mix. They
Speaker 2: didn't want to rely on Boeing alone.
Speaker 3: And there are a number of reasons to do that. One,
Speaker 3: you know, it kind of inspired a friendly competition to
Speaker 3: see who would be first to launch people on these vehicles,
Speaker 3: and then also kind of illustrates. You know why we
Speaker 3: need to providers with this whole saga is that, you know,
Speaker 3: if there was a problem with one vehicle, they would
Speaker 3: have another American made, non Russian vehicle that could get
Speaker 3: its astronauts into orbit.
Speaker 2: NASA awarded two contracts, four point two billion dollars to
Speaker 2: Boeing and two point six billion dollars to what was
Speaker 2: then a plucky upstart Elon Musk's SpaceX.
Speaker 3: They were very much the underdog in this race.
Speaker 2: And how has that friendly competition gone. How have Boeing
Speaker 2: and SpaceX each performed since that twenty fourteen contract award.
Speaker 3: Right, So, for years and years they did appear outwardly
Speaker 3: to be kind of neck and neck in terms of
Speaker 3: their development. When they first handed out launched contracts in
Speaker 3: twenty fourteen, they expected these vehicles to launch as early
Speaker 3: as twenty seventeen, but nobody made that deadline.
Speaker 2: But soon SpaceX started to pull ahead with a series
Speaker 2: of successful launches.
Speaker 1: And then they just pushed it beyond anything anybody's ever done.
Speaker 1: If you work the partners landed, maybe their performance has
Speaker 1: just been extraordinary and outstanding.
Speaker 2: Julie says. SpaceX did have a few key advantages.
Speaker 1: SpaceX was delivering cargo to the space station and so
Speaker 1: they were able to modify this craft that they already had,
Speaker 1: whereas Boeing was starting from scratch.
Speaker 2: They were also a buzzy startup.
Speaker 1: Suddenly they were the cool company everyone wanted to go
Speaker 1: work for.
Speaker 2: They were the visionaries, and they used a startup business model,
Speaker 2: the move fast and break things mentality of Silicon Valley.
Speaker 3: One of the ways that SpaceX likes to test is
Speaker 3: by launching things very early on in their development and
Speaker 3: knowing that they might not necessarily succeed, but pushing them
Speaker 3: to their limits until they and then learning from those
Speaker 3: quote unquote failures and incorporating those lessons learned into the
Speaker 3: next flight. So we've seen quite a number of explosions there,
Speaker 3: but with each subsequent test launch they push the envelope
Speaker 3: farther have fewer explosions, so they've definitely learning and iterating.
Speaker 2: And in twenty twenty, SpaceX had a major breakthrough.
Speaker 1: Three two fun zero ignition liftops. As a fact nine
Speaker 1: a crew d.
Speaker 2: It successfully sent its first spacecraft crewed with NASA astronauts
Speaker 2: to the ISS Data Goospat deck got beat bottom dog.
Speaker 2: Since that first successful crude launch in twenty twenty. SpaceX
Speaker 2: has sent nine separate crews of NASA astronauts up to
Speaker 2: the ISS. And as for Boeing, where I want to begin.
Speaker 2: When Boeing first launched it's Starliner spacecraft in an uncrude
Speaker 2: test back in twenty nineteen, the.
Speaker 3: Vehicle suffered a number of software glitches which ultimately prevented
Speaker 3: the vehicle from reaching the International Space Station as planned.
Speaker 2: From there, NASA did a big review of the program
Speaker 2: and agreed that Boeing would do a do over mission
Speaker 2: another uncrude test flight.
Speaker 3: But then just before they were about to launch, they
Speaker 3: discovered a number of corroded valves on the vehicle and
Speaker 3: ultimately had to roll it back to the hangar, and
Speaker 3: that delayed them up to another year before they were
Speaker 3: able to launch that mission again.
Speaker 2: The Starliner capsule launched successfully in May of twenty twenty two,
Speaker 2: and finally two years later, in May of this year,
Speaker 2: Boeing was ready to launch a crude flight with two
Speaker 2: astronauts up to the ISS, but when it came time
Speaker 2: to launch, it had some issue with a valve. Boeing
Speaker 2: replaced it, but then found a helium leak After a
Speaker 2: few weeks they decided it was safe to move ahead
Speaker 2: even with that leak.
Speaker 3: So we were really eager to see this launch take
Speaker 3: place because of all of the problems that they've had,
Speaker 3: and it seemed as if they might have finally overcome
Speaker 3: all of these issues.
Speaker 2: Lauren was there in Cape Canaveral for that launch.
Speaker 3: So we had gotten down to, I want to say,
Speaker 3: a couple minutes to the lift off, and then they
Speaker 3: delayed it. And I remember on that attempt I sunk
Speaker 3: to my knees because I was so frustrated.
Speaker 2: It had to do with a computer that didn't perform
Speaker 2: properly and triggered an abort, another false start, but finally
Speaker 2: on June.
Speaker 3: Fifth, Johnnie and I are honored to share this dream
Speaker 3: of spaceflights with each and every one of you.
Speaker 2: Six five Boeing Starliner launched with two astronauts on board.
Speaker 3: Ignition and lift off of Starliner and Atlas five carrying
Speaker 3: two American heroes.
Speaker 2: Drawing shortly after launch. Things started to go wrong after
Speaker 2: the break, how the Starliner test flight got messy, and
Speaker 2: how SpaceX stepped in astronauts, Butch Wilmore and Sunny Williams
Speaker 2: reached the International Space Station safely on June sixth, but
Speaker 2: on the way up, their Boeing Starliner had more helium
Speaker 2: leaks and some thrusters on the spacecraft failed and had
Speaker 2: to be rebooted. So NASA and Boeing turned to the
Speaker 2: task of figuring out what went wrong, and after weeks
Speaker 2: of analysis, they decided the Starliner shouldn't take Butch and
Speaker 2: Sunny back to Earth. Instead, they'd hitch a ride on
Speaker 2: SpaceX's crew Dragon capsule, which is making the next plan
Speaker 2: mission to and from the ISS.
Speaker 1: When it came down to it, NASA doesn't have the
Speaker 1: tolerance for risk rightfully so that it once did.
Speaker 2: NASA Administrator Bill Nelson spoke at a news conference last weekend.
Speaker 2: He evoked the deadly Challenger explosion in nineteen eighty six
Speaker 2: and the disintegration of the Columbia Shuttle during re entry
Speaker 2: in two thousand and three.
Speaker 4: We have had mistakes done in the past. We lost
Speaker 4: two space shuttles as a result of there not being
Speaker 4: a culture in which information could come forward.
Speaker 1: The agency has a much different approach to safety these days.
Speaker 1: And it's not like they were out of auctions. They
Speaker 1: knew SpaceX was sending a capsule up that could bring
Speaker 1: Butch and Sunny back next year.
Speaker 2: What does it mean for Boeing financially that these astronauts
Speaker 2: are now stuck for an extra six months and this
Speaker 2: launch failed.
Speaker 1: Essentially, the economics for this program are not looking good.
Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, Bowing's and Chaos, They've not
Speaker 1: made an annual profit this decade. They've got a new
Speaker 1: CEO with a mandate to come in and look at
Speaker 1: everything with a fresh eye.
Speaker 2: So did some of the problems that are plaguing Boeing's
Speaker 2: airplane division also have an impact on the spacecraft program.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, you know why things break apart
Speaker 1: or organizations failed. These are really complex dynamic that play out,
Speaker 1: you know, over hundreds or thousands of decisions, little decisions
Speaker 1: that chip away at expertise.
Speaker 2: Julie says, much like the problems with Boeing seven thirty
Speaker 2: seven Max civilian jets, some of the star Liner problems
Speaker 2: likely come down to oversight, failing to properly regulate the
Speaker 2: work of outside contractors, and a culture that employees say
Speaker 2: has discouraged them from speaking up about issues. All that
Speaker 2: has come at a high price for the company.
Speaker 1: Because of the delays on star Liner. Boeing had already
Speaker 1: lost about one point six billion dollars on this program,
Speaker 1: and the contract is only for six astronaut flights once
Speaker 1: NASA clears Starliner to carry you know, regular humans. So
Speaker 1: that's not there's no way you recover that amount of
Speaker 1: money over six trips.
Speaker 2: What do we know about how Boeing is weighing the
Speaker 2: costs and benefits of remaining involved in the commercial crew
Speaker 2: program itself.
Speaker 1: You've got a new CEO, Kelly Ortberg, who has a
Speaker 1: free pass from Wall Street, from investors and stakeholders to
Speaker 1: go in and to make the tough decisions, and in context,
Speaker 1: what they care about is getting the commercial airplane division
Speaker 1: back on track. This is a distraction, not to minimize it.
Speaker 1: It's you know, I mean, it's US space flight. There're
Speaker 1: do you political ramifications for this, But if you're a
Speaker 1: Boeing investor, it's a really small program, and I think
Speaker 1: there'd be some understanding that, yeah, Boeing can't do everything,
Speaker 1: and let's just focus on the key businesses and get
Speaker 1: them right.
Speaker 2: Over the weekend, Boeing shared a statement with Bloomberg saying
Speaker 2: Boeing continues to focus first and foremost on the safety
Speaker 2: of the crew and spacecraft. We are executing the mission
Speaker 2: as determined by NASA, and we are preparing the spacecraft
Speaker 2: for a safe and successful, uncrude return. In the meantime,
Speaker 2: for SpaceX, being tapped to bring the astronauts home bolsters
Speaker 2: their image as a reliable partner to the US government,
Speaker 2: a company that's matured beyond the days of viral rocket explosions.
Speaker 3: I think there's probably a lot of pride in being
Speaker 3: able to answer this call for NASA. The point of
Speaker 3: picking two providers is really for this exact scenario, you
Speaker 3: just don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.
Speaker 2: And in the coming years, having commercial partners in space
Speaker 2: is only going to be more important for NASA, and
Speaker 2: that could mean more opportunities for SpaceX to make its mark.
Speaker 3: You know, It's Falcon nine rocket has become the most
Speaker 3: prolific rocket on the face of the Earth right now.
Speaker 3: So SpaceX has really worked to become more and more
Speaker 3: routine and reliable as a launch provider.
Speaker 2: But SpaceX still has its bad days. Just this week,
Speaker 2: the company's primary Falcon nine rocket was grounded by federal
Speaker 2: regulators after a failed landing This quite literally is rocket science,
Speaker 2: and it's not always easy to get it right. In
Speaker 2: the meantime, those two astronauts will be orbiting Earth for
Speaker 2: a lot longer than they planned, but they seem to
Speaker 2: be doing all right. We've heard from the astronauts themselves
Speaker 2: in one press conference since they landed on the ISS.
Speaker 2: Here's Sunny Williams.
Speaker 1: We are having a great time here on ISS, you know.
Speaker 1: Butch and I have been up here before, and it
Speaker 1: feels like coming back home. It feels good to float around,
Speaker 1: It feels good to be in space and work up
Speaker 1: here with the International Space Station team. So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: great to be up here.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to The Big Take DC podcast from
Speaker 2: Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah. This episode was produced by Julia Press.
Speaker 2: It was mixed by Blake Maples. It was edited by
Speaker 2: Aaron Edwards and Eric Johnson. It was fact checked by
Speaker 2: Adrianna Tapia. Wendy Benjaminson and Elizabeth Ponso provide editorial direction
Speaker 2: for the show. Our senior producers are Kim Gittelson and
Speaker 2: Naomi Shaven, who also edited this episode. Nicole Bumsterbor is
Speaker 2: our executive producer. Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts.
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