1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Housing and Urban Development Secretary Ben Carson spoke at President 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's rally Tuesday night, talking about his experience growing 3 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: up and telling the crowd that life is too short 4 00:00:10,440 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: for people to let differences divide them. Carson speech isn't 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: raising questions. It's this introduction of him at the rally. 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,279 Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the Secretary of the U 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: S Department of Housing and Urban Development, Dr. Ben Carson. 8 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: After that introduction, the tweeting started. Did Carson violate the 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,319 Speaker 1: Hatch Act, which prevents executive branch employees from using their 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: government positions to influence elections. Our guest is Richard Painter, 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: former White House ethics lawyer and a professor at the 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: University of Minnesota Law School. Richard tell us a little 13 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: bit more about this law from The Hatch Act was 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: enacted to prevent federal government officials from using their official 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: position to influenced part as an election. Uh the Republicans 16 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: and the House and Senate. Some of the Democrats are 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: asserted about the Roosevelt administration chickler. When they're spending a 18 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: lot of types throw the money, analysts as the programs, 19 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna using their official position to influence part 20 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: as an election. So the Secretary of Health and Human Services, 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: like other federal officials, is prohibited from using his official 22 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: title at a campaign rally. Whether or not he violated 23 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: the Hatch Act will turn on whether he ought, drove, 24 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,040 Speaker 1: or encouraged someone she introduced him using his official pun. 25 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: It was clearly anappropriate friends be introduced using his official 26 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: cast title. The question really is who violated the Hatch Act, 27 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: whether the person introducing him UH improperly used it or 28 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: whether he UH do that that was going to happen 29 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: or encouraged it, in which case he would face violation. 30 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: So us A Hot spokesman told The Washington Post that 31 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: Carson did not hear his name before he was que 32 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: to go on, and all other references during the event 33 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: referred to him as Dr Carson. So if that's if 34 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: that's true, that he didn't really know about the way 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: he was going to be introduced, is that then not 36 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: a violation? Well, I think that he would not have 37 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: violated the Hatacks unless he himself used his official title 38 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: or allows the one or tell from what they could 39 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: UH to avoid this type of thing. However, the Executive 40 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: branch agency is as supposed to communicate with the campaign 41 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: personnel people write a political rally, how important it is 42 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: that the executive ranch official only appear at the rally 43 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: in his or her personal capacity, that the official title 44 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: never be use. So apparently that was not done. Um 45 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: so clear it was improper. The question whether this is 46 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: uh ignorance of the law the part of the Trump 47 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: campaign staff, which is entirely pop or whether it's something 48 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: that Secretary Carlton Uh, whether he sucked your Carson encouraged it, uh, 49 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: you know. And then the middle ground, you have a 50 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: situation where his own staff and h g W you 51 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: know was h h HS was with Carol zed and 52 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: should have been more um forward leading and trying to 53 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: prevent these types of violations. How does enforcement of a 54 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: violation of the Hatch Act work? Who reports it to whom? 55 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: The Office Special Council is an agency set up to 56 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: administer the Hatch Act, and they do investigate allegations of 57 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: violations of the Hatch Act. Has been one violation by 58 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: a member of the White House, for sure, who was 59 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: tweeting using a White House Uh, we're using it a 60 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: personal Twitter page that also is a White House photos 61 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: and official titles on a purpose of advancing political campaigns. Um. 62 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: So that's this type of thing some time at the 63 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: time the Special Council of that's the gate. Uh, and 64 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: then make the recommendation as to what should be done 65 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: and what can be done, what kinds of punishment. If 66 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: someone is consciously, knowingly or recklessly violated the hattack, the 67 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: usual sanction is for them to be fired, to be 68 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: fired in um. In June, the incident that you were 69 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 1: talking about was White House social media director Dan Scovino 70 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: tweeted a call for the electoral defeative Republican Representative Justin 71 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: Amash of Michigan, who was often critical of Trump. He 72 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: was just reprimanded by the Office of Special Counsel. Well, yes, 73 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: the ulti Special Council cannot make the decision about where 74 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: to fire somebody if they make a respectation. Uh, that's 75 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: up to the president of this White House has had 76 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 1: a somewhat laxed approach to the office issues. They did 77 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: sanction Kelly and Conway at all with respected for violence 78 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: of the ethics rules. That wasn't a violas match Act. 79 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: But she was using her official position to promote a 80 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 1: vanka's clothing and the office governor. It's really very clear 81 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: that was a violation, and they just got a lot 82 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: of pushback to the White House of that. So at 83 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: the end of the day, Uh, the President decides how 84 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: strictly he's going to enforce these rules for his there 85 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: and Richard, really everyone who when Ben Carson comes on stage, 86 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: just about everybody knows he's the HUD secretary. What harm 87 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: or influence is there really in someone introducing him for 88 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: about ten seconds as the HUD secretary. Well, that's a 89 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: very good question because I've taken the position that's what 90 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 1: the law should be is the Cabinet secretary, high ranking 91 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: executive branch officials should be prohibited for participating in campaign 92 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,559 Speaker 1: events while they are holding off the only hold office 93 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: usually for a few years, and I think that's a 94 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: time of focus of their official duties and not participating 95 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: the part of the politics at all. Um at least 96 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: they shouldn't be going to fund break But that's my 97 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: view of what the law should say. What the law 98 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: is is that they are allowed to participate. Where we 99 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: draw the lot and say, well, they cannot use their 100 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: official title, Uh, they cannot use any government money for 101 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: persons attending an event costs. Uh. And then they are, however, 102 00:06:21,279 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: allowed to participate in their pression of the path. But 103 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: either though, it's you're correctly quite out. Everybody knows who 104 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: they are. People go to these events in order to 105 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: smooth these executive branch of social and uh. You know, 106 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: I think it encourages the pay to play game in 107 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: politics when we let executive branch official crisis cabinet sectaries 108 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: go to political events. Let me ask you a question 109 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: that is separate. Um, when President Trump endorses candidates or 110 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: makes references to candidates in tweets one way or the other, 111 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: is that a problem an ethical problem? Uh? No, the 112 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: hatchack does not apply to the press and uh and 113 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: the vice president does not apply to the member Congress. 114 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:08,239 Speaker 1: We don't distinguish between their official capacity and their political 115 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: capacity as we would for other executive branch employees other 116 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: than the president of the vice president. So presidents have 117 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: appeared uh uh quite recently, the introduced as president and 118 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: then they endorse a candidate. Uh. And uh. That that's 119 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: why comments So I wouldn't I would expect to see 120 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: more than was unusual. President Trump is of course, he's 121 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: attacking so many members of his own party. Uh that 122 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: I'm not there being a Republican to lest other times through. 123 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: But that's a practical problem. Yes it is, all right. 124 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being on Bloomberg Law. That's Richard Painter, 125 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: and he is an ex ethics expert, if I can 126 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: say that correctly. Thanks so much Richard for being on 127 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Law. As always. He's a former ethics lawyer at 128 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: the White's House and a professor at the Universe in 129 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: Minnesota Law School.