1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: This is Latino USA, the Radio Journal of News and 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Kurtur Latino US, Latino USA. I'm Maria Inojosa. We bring 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: you stories that are underreported but that mattered to you, 4 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: overlooked by the wrestler media, and while the country is 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 1: struggling to deal with these, we listen to the stories 6 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: of Black and Latino Studios United Latino Front, a cultural 7 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: renaissance organizing at the forefront of the movement. I'm Maria 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: ino jossaaan Hey, Latino USA, listener, here's a show. The 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: Los Achivos. 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: Storytelling is really powerful in that we're all sort of 11 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 2: trying to process so much of what's going on, and 12 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 2: if you reach back with stories as old as time, 13 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: you find some circularity, you find some hope in the 14 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: sense that, yeah, we've come through very very terrible things before, 15 00:00:57,360 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: and even if if not all of us make it, 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 2: but the stories will outlive us. 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: From Fudromedia and prxits Latino USA. I'm Marieno Horosin Today, 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: a conversation with Haitian American author Eduig Danti Kot on 19 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: the history of resistance to police violence and loss in 20 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 1: the age of COVID nineteen. Back in February twenty twenty, 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: Duig Danticot paid a visit to the class I had 22 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: been teaching at Barnard College, and she shared a message 23 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: with my students. It was about owning our space and 24 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: our voice in this country as writers of color and 25 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: of conscience. Deduig was the last guest I had in 26 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 1: my classroom in person before the COVID nineteen pandemic changed 27 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: our way of life. Irweigi is an award winning author 28 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 1: of several books, including her debut nineteen ninety four novel 29 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: Breath Eyes, memory about a young Haitian girl reuniting with 30 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: her mother in New York City, and her two thousand 31 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: and seven memoir Brother I'm Dying, which goes into detail 32 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: about the death of her own uncle, who was eighty 33 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: one years old when he died in an immigrant detention 34 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: facility in Florida. Her latest book is titled Everything Inside. 35 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: It's a collection of short stories where Idueg explores how 36 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: people come to terms with death, among other themes. Her 37 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: reflections and writing on the immigrant experience, Haitian American identity 38 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: and loss has gained her many awards, including the MacArthur 39 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: Genius Award, the Langston Hughes Medal and the Neustat International 40 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: Prize for Literature. We wanted to check in with aduej 41 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: and get her insight on the times we're living through 42 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: right now. In our converse, Sa Dwig, who by the way, 43 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: I've known for over twenty five years, reached back to 44 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: several cases of police violence against black men and women 45 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: in New York City in the nineteen eighties and nineties, 46 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: cases that echo the current moment of today. Duig Dan Dika, 47 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: welcome back to let you know, USA. 48 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you so much for having me. 49 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 1: Just wanted to kind of start out with you, kind 50 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: of just checking in on you. You're a mom, you're 51 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: a wife, you're a writer, you're a professional, you're but 52 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: in your heart, how are you doing right now? 53 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: I'm doing all right personally, but I think, like so 54 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: many of us, you know, my heart is troubled. There 55 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: are so many points of concern right now. In addition 56 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 2: to the pandemic. We have watched the recent horror of 57 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: the public execution of George Floyd. Before that, we heard 58 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 2: about the home invasion murder of Breonna Taylor and Ammard 59 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 2: Aubrey preceded that, and then a long list of police 60 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: killings that go back for me and my youth to 61 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 2: Usef Hawkins. 62 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 3: Benson Hurst, Brooklyn, nineteen eighty nine. For many, it conjures 63 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 3: memory is of one of the most painful racial incidents 64 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 3: in New York City's history, the killing of sixteen year 65 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 3: old use Of Hawkins. 66 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: So you have the pandemic, and then you have this 67 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 2: reoccurrence in the middle of the pandemic of systemic racism 68 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: in its most visible form. And I am, of course 69 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: worried about the spikes of COVID and the Caribbean in 70 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 2: Latin America and particularly in Haiti. So there's a lot 71 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: to think about. There's a lot to be concerned about, 72 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: and as my MoMA would say, there's a lot to 73 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: pray about. 74 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: So Intweeds, you talked about how all of these protests 75 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: that you're seeing have really brought up a lot of 76 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: memories because you grew up in Brooklyn after you arrived 77 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: there when you were twelve, and people forget that in 78 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties, and I covered these stories, New 79 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: York City was a very divided place. So you brought 80 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: up the murder in nineteen eighty nine of Yusef Hawkins, 81 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: He was a young black teenager who was killed by 82 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: a mob of white teenagers in benson Hurst, Brooklyn. He 83 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: was literally just at the wrong place, at the wrong time, 84 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: in the wrong neighborhood because he was black. There was 85 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: also the nineteen eighty four murder of Eleanor Bumpers. She 86 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: was an elderly disabled black woman who was shot and 87 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: killed by police when they tried to a victor from 88 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: her own apartment in the Bronx. There was also this 89 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 1: terrible case in nineteen ninety seven. This was the brutal 90 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 1: assault of Abner Louima, Haitian American from Brooklyn, who is 91 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: sodomized by a police officer in a precinct in Brooklyn. 92 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: And I'm a du Diallo from Guinea, shot at nineteen 93 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 1: times in a hail of forty one bullets in nineteen 94 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: ninety nine. You were in Brooklyn, you were in New 95 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: York City. We have lived through this before, and we 96 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: thought we had made progress. 97 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,679 Speaker 2: Yes, you know. Actually this week I've been thinking about 98 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: it a lot, and I have spoken about it to 99 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 2: my three brothers. I was twenty years old when Yusef 100 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 2: Hawkins was murdered. Yusef Hawkins, I think was for me 101 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 2: the first time that I started following very closely, in 102 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 2: part because he was the same age as one of 103 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 2: my brothers and immigrant parents. Not all, but many immigrant 104 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: parents harbor this illusion that if they're black, you was 105 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: born or for born child is polite, works hard in school, 106 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: does all the right thing, that they might be able 107 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: to escape the brunt of American racism. But for my parents, 108 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 2: that case just did something. My parents and myself for 109 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 2: the first twelve years of my life, I had grown 110 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: up under a brutal dictatorship, the De Value dictatorship in Haiti. 111 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: So there's a kind of caution about authority and about vigilantes, 112 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: about mobs, and so you come with that with that 113 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: fear already. But I remember after Useuph Hawkins died, I 114 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: decided my brothers and I were going to the protest. 115 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: So there was a big march I think of September 116 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine in downtown Brooklyn where they were attempting 117 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: to cross the bridge to march to City Hall. And 118 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 2: I remember looking at over at them during the march 119 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 2: and thinking would I be marching for them one day? 120 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: And so of course that whole notion of like the 121 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: good immigrant being exempt from police violence was shattered by 122 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 2: the police shooting of people like Amidudiallo, and then there 123 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: was the atrocious abuse of Abner Luima. So all of that, 124 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: you know, we marched a lot. Even my parents, who 125 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 2: were not very political people at all, went to one 126 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 2: of the protests at that time. So it was a 127 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: very volatile and really urgent seeming time. So there are 128 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 2: echoes of the protest then here, but now to see 129 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: the whole range of different people and young people at 130 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: these current protests is very encouraging. 131 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:00,200 Speaker 3: You know. 132 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 2: There was this really beautiful image that I saw the 133 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: other day of a protest in New York of young 134 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 2: Haitian and Dominican people marching side by side in the protest, 135 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: and that was just so heartening to see. Like all 136 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: the coalitions that are built and think of this, Maria, 137 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 2: we've all been inside out homes for the most part, right, 138 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:29,359 Speaker 2: unless you're essential workers, we've been inside. And this pandemic 139 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: that we've been hearing about that can kill us, that 140 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 2: has killed so many people, I know. But if that 141 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 2: couldn't keep people in, one cannot emphasize the urgency of 142 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: that enough that everybody who steps out on the street 143 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: is saying that this is so important that I'm potentially 144 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: risking my health to stand out on the street and protest. 145 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: You brought up those recent images of the Haitian flag 146 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: right next to the Dominican flags and these protesters linking 147 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: arms in a MEAs that is saying, you know, black 148 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: lives matter. So what are you thinking in terms of 149 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 1: Latini Dad, Latin X people and the conversation about anti 150 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: blackness that runs deep in Latin America and the Caribbean. 151 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: Well, thankfully the young people are already having that conversation, right. 152 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: But I would say to folks, my folks, my people, 153 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 2: is that we are seen, and we have seen what 154 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 2: anti blackness does. From this very concrete moment of this 155 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 2: man being suffocated on the ground, to people being shot 156 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: in their cars when they're pulled over, people being shot 157 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 2: in the back, and the stories that we don't see 158 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,199 Speaker 2: but hear about the You know, if Sandra. 159 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 3: Bland, a woman who was found dead in a Texas 160 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: jail sale three days after being arrested during a traffic stop. 161 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: We saw at the beginning of the end of her life. 162 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: For Breonna Taylor, Louisville police shot and killed twenty six 163 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: year old Breonna Taylor in her apartment. The women we 164 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: hear less about. We've seen what anti blackness does. Why 165 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: perpetuate that the people who are still clinging to that, 166 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,359 Speaker 2: you know, to this notion and the colorism, the anti blackness, 167 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 2: that they will follow the example of the young people, 168 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: so that hopefully thirty years from now we won't be 169 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: in the same place again. 170 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: Coming up on Latino Usay, my conversation with writer Eduig 171 00:11:41,360 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: Danticat continues stay with us, Yes, hey, we're back. And 172 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: recently Duige Dante Cott wrote in The New Yorker and 173 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: in the Miami Herald about the looming arrival of COVID 174 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: nineteen to Haiti. She detailed how Haitian immigrants were being 175 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: deported even after they tested positive for COVID nineteen, and 176 00:12:54,920 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: how the aftermath could be catastrophic for the country she 177 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: was born in. Let's jump back to our conversation. In 178 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: the case of COVID, it really feels like this is 179 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: an illness that in the case of Haiti. Do you 180 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: think it came from the United States into Haiti? Is 181 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: that what we're talking about a different kind of transmission 182 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: from the advanced modern world the United States to Haiti, 183 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: a country that is still rebuilding from just the past earthquakes. 184 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say that it came from the United States, 185 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 2: but there is one way that the United States is 186 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: spreading COVID to Haiti and other parts of Latin America 187 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: and the Caribbean. It's to deportations. They are deporting people 188 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 2: who are coming from detention centers where they might have 189 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: been tested, or were not tested, or were not able 190 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 2: to social distance, and some had tested positive. There have 191 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: been several now deportation flights to Haiti, and there have 192 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: been cases and Guatemala specifically, where a large number of 193 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: people have tested positive for COVID after they were deported. 194 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 2: They have been deporting people like this, which is cruel 195 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: and really unconsortable, given that they know that if some 196 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 2: of the richest countries in the world have had trouble 197 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 2: with their health system dealing with COVID cases, that the 198 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: places to which they're deporting people like Haiti and other 199 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: countries would not be able to handle the spread of 200 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 2: the disease that these deportations are contributing to. 201 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: So in an Abeddwitch for The Miami Herald, you wrote 202 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: that many immigrants are facing deportation, in fact, even those 203 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: who had tested positive for COVID. Nineteen, you wrote about 204 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: this thing called ice air as in Immigration Customs Enforcement air, 205 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, like the airline of immigration agents, and how 206 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: children as young as one year old were being deported 207 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: and Edwig, you know, it sounds like, even as a 208 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: writer who is writing some kind of horrible fiction, that 209 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: it could not be as bad as we're seeing and 210 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: living through right now. And so I'm just wondering about 211 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: your reaction to all of this as a writer. 212 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: Well, there's so many things happening that are hard to 213 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: process at the moment that if you were writing as 214 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: fiction right, as a fiction writer, people would be like, nah, 215 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 2: that just makes no sense. The idea that a country 216 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: that has, you know, in spite of its history with imperialism, 217 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 2: regime change, invasions, occupations, has always been lecturing to the 218 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: world about human rights abuses right, and has sometimes used 219 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 2: those motivation to invade militarily in other places, is now 220 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 2: really actively spreading a deadly disease to other countries. And 221 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: on these flights or very small children and adults and 222 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: older adults, younger people and a lot of the people, 223 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 2: at least in the case of Haiti, or now find 224 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: themselves in this world of both immigration and pandemic. 225 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: So it's interesting because I'm not sure if I've actually 226 00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: ever told this to you, but in some ways I 227 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: feel these ties to you that bind me in some ways, 228 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: even though we rarely see each other and we're rarely 229 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: even in touch, But these kinds of binds to you, 230 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: and one of them to me is your uncle Joseph, 231 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 1: who you write about in your book Brother I'm Dying, 232 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: And he's the man who basically raised you. And he 233 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: dies when he is in immigration custody at the Chrome 234 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 1: Detention Facility in Miami in the year two thousand and four. 235 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: This was when you know, detentions and deportations were on 236 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: the rise, but nobody was talking about this. And when 237 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: I was in that Chrome Facility many years later for 238 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,920 Speaker 1: a documentary, I actually met some of the people who 239 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: worked in the medical unit who had seen your uncle, 240 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: and I asked them, he was crying for help. Why 241 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: did you not help him? And you write, you know, 242 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: you've written and talked about the fact that you wanted 243 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: to get to see him and you couldn't make it, 244 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: and ultimately he died in the most in the loneliest situation, 245 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: which was that he was chained to a bed. And 246 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about, has your uncle Joseph come to you? 247 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: Have you been thinking about him in these times of 248 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: you know, again, of facing these multiple challenges. 249 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 2: Oh, I've been thinking about him so much. And Marie, 250 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: it's not that I couldn't make it, it's they wouldn't 251 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 2: let me see him. And so when my uncle, I mean, 252 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: it's yeah, it's just staggering to even think about. It's 253 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 2: been so many years. But I see echoes of, you know, 254 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: of George Floyd's screams in his story, because he kept 255 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 2: asking for his medicine, which the lawyer who was with 256 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: him told us. And when he became ill and started 257 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: vomiting through a trake hole he had in his neck 258 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 2: from a larynx removal surgery, he was told he was faking. 259 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: They thought they they you know, the medic who came 260 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 2: to look at him said he was faking. And eventually 261 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: he was taken to a prison award in a hospital 262 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 2: where he died shackled to a bed at eighty one 263 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 2: years old. So I testified, you know, before Congress about 264 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:28,080 Speaker 2: his case along with other families who had also lost 265 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 2: loved ones and immigration custody in similar ways. I was 266 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 2: watching today a bit of George Floyd's brother's testimony before 267 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 2: a congressional panel. George always made sacrifices for our family, 268 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: and he made sacrifices for complete strangers. He gave the 269 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 2: little that he had to help others. He was our 270 00:19:53,800 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 2: gentle giant. And watching you know, Filoria's Floyd's testimony, I 271 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 2: realized that we were, he and I trying to do 272 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: the same thing, and that moment, we were trying to 273 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 2: humanize our loved ones in a public space because they 274 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 2: had been murdered by the state, really right, And so 275 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 2: what then happens after that? You then have to be 276 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 2: out there saying over and over with all the new 277 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,959 Speaker 2: commitments that you've taken on because you really really do 278 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: not want this to happen to somebody else's family. But 279 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: part of that job is also saying he was a father, 280 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: you know, things that you you know, you really shouldn't 281 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: have to say after because someone was murdered. He was 282 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,959 Speaker 2: a minister, he was an uncle, he was a father. 283 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 2: He was loved, he was loved, he was loved and 284 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: that becomes as much activism as the other kind of 285 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: activism that you end up taking on after you've lost 286 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 2: a loved one in that terrible way. 287 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: So I want to shift for a moment to talk 288 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: about something else that you write incredibly insightfully about. And 289 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: that's and obviously we're all thinking about this, which is 290 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: loss and the grieving that comes with loss. So I 291 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: live right here in New York City, which has been 292 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: the epicenter and at which I have, like you, I 293 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: have lost like quite a few people through COVID, and 294 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: so I want to turn to your latest work. It's 295 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: your book Everything Inside, and one of the short stories 296 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: that you sent her the Issue of Loss and Grief. 297 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: It's a young woman. Her name is Nadia, and she 298 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: travels from New York to Miami to meet her dying father. 299 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you can set us up for what 300 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: you're about to read right now. 301 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: So this is indeed a story of loss, and it's 302 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 2: called in the Old Days. And it's interesting now that 303 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 2: you know. I was talking to one of my daughters 304 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 2: the other day and I said in the Old Days, 305 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,359 Speaker 2: and I realized that I meant like two months ago, 306 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: but before I read you this small excerpt. I want 307 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 2: to also acknowledge this kind of loss that we have 308 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 2: these days. I can't tell you now how many zoom 309 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 2: and Facebook funerals I have seen, which feels like an extraordinary, 310 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:04,879 Speaker 2: very layer, another layer to the loss that losses that 311 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: we're feeling because we can't travel to comfort people, you 312 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: can't touch people, you can't really help people travel through 313 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: these rituals that have comforted us both at home and 314 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 2: in migration, the wakes, the you know, the repast, and 315 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 2: so much of that. So I think this lack of 316 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: rituals as we experience loss has also been one of 317 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: the scarring aspect of this COVID nineteen moment. So the 318 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: story this young woman is recalling the old days as 319 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 2: she's facing her father, who who she's traveled to see 320 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: but doesn't get there in time. 321 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: So the excerpt is from a story called in the 322 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: Old Days, and the book is titled Everything Inside. 323 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: My father's wife had her own version of the old days, 324 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 2: and the old days. She was telling me conk shells 325 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 2: blared for each person who died, and the old days, 326 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 2: when a baby was born, the midwife would put the 327 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 2: baby on the ground and it was up to the 328 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 2: father to pick up the child and claim it as 329 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 2: his own. And the old days, the dead were initially 330 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 2: kept at home. Farewell prayers were chanted and morning dances 331 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 2: were performed at their joy filled wakes. When it was 332 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: time to take the dead out of the house, they 333 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: would be carried out feet first through the back door 334 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: and not the front, so they would know not to return. 335 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 2: Their babies and young children would be passed over their 336 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 2: coffins so they would shake off their spirits and wouldn't 337 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 2: be haunted for the rest of their lives. Then a 338 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: village elder would pour rum on the graves as a 339 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: final farewell. And the old days, she said, I would 340 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: have pronounced my father dead with my bereavement wales to 341 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 2: our fellow villagers, both the ones crowding the house and 342 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 2: others far beyond. Looking down at my father's dead face 343 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,239 Speaker 2: and which I saw no trace of my own, I 344 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 2: wanted to grab him and shake him, force him to 345 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 2: wake up and explain to me his version of the 346 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 2: old days. He was a good man, a very good man, 347 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,479 Speaker 2: my father's wife explained, I know he would have wanted 348 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 2: you to be part of his final rights. 349 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 1: It reached that was really powerful. Thank you for reading 350 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: that for us. And I'm just wondering, finally, as we 351 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 1: move forward, what are you thinking about and is there 352 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: anything that you're holding on to in these moments to 353 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 1: help you to push forward. 354 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 2: I think back to my ancestors, right, I think back 355 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:02,440 Speaker 2: to what they've had to overcome, and Haitian ancestry, certainly 356 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 2: with Haiti, this small country fighting to become the first 357 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: black republic in the Western Hemisphere. But I also think 358 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 2: about common ancestors, right, all of those people who have 359 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: fought and sacrificed and have died for us all to 360 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 2: have a better life. So I stop to think about them, 361 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 2: and I honor that, and I try to hope that 362 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 2: we can all live up to this moment in a 363 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: way that honors them. And my hope, you know, is 364 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 2: that both with COVID and in this moment that we're 365 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 2: living now, is that we all come out of this better. 366 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 2: In there are days when I feel like, yes, we're 367 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 2: going to be better after this, and the other days 368 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: when I'm not so sure. But I think, you know, 369 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: being a parent certainly falls into how much hope you 370 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 2: allow yourself to have, and if you have, if you 371 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 2: have kids, you have to have hope, right because there 372 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 2: has to be a future for them. And the hope 373 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 2: is one that I think my parents had with all 374 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: the sacrifices they made to come here, is that that 375 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 2: future will be a little bit better than the past. 376 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: Midwig, it was great to speak with you again. I 377 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: send you a huge virtual big bear hug from New 378 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: York to Miami. 379 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 2: Same too. 380 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 1: Duig Dante cat is an award winning Haitian American writer 381 00:27:44,680 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: based in Miami. Her latest book is titled Everything Inside. 382 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: That's It For Latino USA. This story was produced by 383 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: Janie Jamoca and edited by Luis Reyes. The Latino USA 384 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:19,360 Speaker 1: team includes Andrea Lopez Crusado, Marta Martinez, Mike Sargent, Daisy Condreras, 385 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: Victoria Estrada, Renaldo Leanos Junior, Patricia Sulbaran, and Elizabeth Lenthal Torres. 386 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: Our editorial director is Fernandes Santos. Our director of Engineering 387 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: is Stephanie Lobau. Our senior engineer is Julia Caruso. Our 388 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: associate engineers are Gabrielle Abiaz and jj Carubin. Our marketing 389 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: manager is Luis Luna. Our theme music was composed by 390 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: Zaying Rubinos. I'm your host and executive producer Maria Jojosa 391 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: join us on our next episode. You can also find 392 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: us on your social media and I say not. The 393 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: yas Ciao. 394 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 4: Latino USA is made possible in part Public Welfare Foundation 395 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 4: catalyzing transformative approaches to justice that are community led, restorative, 396 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 4: and racially just. W. K. Kellogg Foundation, a partner with 397 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 4: Communities where Children Come First, and the John D. And 398 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 4: Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation. 399 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 2: In the end, we'll just be Janics in US.