WEBVTT - Kurt Andersen & Alex Gibney 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.160 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.120 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:12.119 today's best minds, and tourism cutbacks stand to cost the 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:17.639 United States approximately ninety billion dollars. We have such a 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:23.200 great show for you today. Evil Genius' author Kurt Anderson 0:00:23.360 --> 0:00:29.040 stops by to talk about Trump crossing the lines of lawlessness. 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:35.159 Then we'll talk to documentarian Alex Gibney about his latest documentary, 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:40.360 The Dark Money Game, a documentary about how dark money 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:44.479 influences our politics. But first the news Smiley. 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:50.080 Many people are saying that now we're in the lawless groupicon, 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.440 that we've really really really stepped in it with Trump 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.320 giving the middle finger to the Supreme Court and saying 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.840 that this is a foreign affair that they don't have oversight. 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:03.680 So this is again like one of the parlor games 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.600 we play now, is are we in a constitutional crisis? 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:10.920 I like to call it as shorten your's constitutional crisis. 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.400 That's all right, both in and out, alive and dead. 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:17.039 Even having to ask that question, I think is a 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:18.959 pretty good sign that you're in a lot of trouble. 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.800 What we have here is like a semantic argument that 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.640 we see the Trump administration doing, which is exploiting the 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:30.160 law as much as possible. So they have been told 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:34.600 to bring Garcia back to the United States, but they 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:39.679 hadn't been quite clearly told how and sort of the timetable. 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.480 So they're kind of obfuscating and trying not to do 0:01:43.640 --> 0:01:46.679 everything that they should be doing. And you know, this 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.520 is a great example of this administration's lawlessness. But I 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:54.480 think it is worse looking at this and realizing that 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:57.800 the reason why Trump keeps losing in the courts is 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.560 because the stuff they want to do is not lawful. 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.760 And so when you're a Harvard University or your MIT, 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.840 or you're one of these many universities it's being targeted 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.760 by the Trump administration, you can remind yourself that Trump 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:18.040 will lose in court because this is actually unlawful, and 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:22.000 so you don't have to go along with this, right 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:27.400 you can push back against these unlawful requests, and that's 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:29.440 what you need to do. And we're going to see 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:31.840 Trump is going to try to do this more and 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:33.880 people are going to have to stand up to things 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:38.280 that are unlawful in a peaceful and calm way. And 0:02:38.320 --> 0:02:41.320 that's what Harvard did today. And that's what MIT did, 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.160 and that's what all of our universities are going to do, 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:47.560 because if there's one lesson that we can learn from 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:52.440 Columbia University, it is the lesson that trump Ism is 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:57.080 very much not legal, and very much that if you 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.120 acquiesce to them even a little bit, they will not 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.960 be satisfied. In fact, that they will just decide that 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:09.600 they want more, and so don't comply, don't obey, peacefully 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:12.160 and smartly pushback. 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:15.920 Yeah, and our lotmakers should be doing much more than that, 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:19.160 And it seems that some of them are discussing going 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.320 tell Salvador to really push back on this because this 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:26.800 is just such an egregious step over the line. 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:30.400 Yeah. I mean, it's good that they're doing that, and 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.520 I'm glad to see Democrats finally doing the kind of 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.560 stuff that we've been wanting them to do, the kind 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:41.520 of pushback that needs to happen. Senator Chris van Holland, 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.360 who is by the way, pretty I would say straight 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.760 not mister woke by any start of the imagination. Right, 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:52.240 He's a Maryland Democratic Senator. He says that he's going 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:58.200 to go if Garcia is not returned by midweek. The 0:03:58.320 --> 0:04:02.120 Senator will travel to Salvador. I just want to bring 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:05.720 up something which I think is actually quite important. These 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:10.320 things that Trump is doing are not popular, and I'm 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:14.680 going to read you a little bit of polling which 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.799 I think is actually quite important. So here's a poll 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:24.200 from Quinnipiac and it says more Americans now disapprove of 0:04:24.320 --> 0:04:29.120 Trump on immigration than it's fifty percent to forty five percent. 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:33.560 Majority of Americans now disapprove of Trump on deportations fifty 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.440 three to forty two. So here's the deal. This is 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:42.200 not popular, right, This is not popular, This is not okay. 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:46.480 This is voters more than three to one see Trump's 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:49.800 tariffs hurting US economy in the short term but less 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:53.120 parish on the long term. This is real. Right on 0:04:53.160 --> 0:04:56.120 the short term, seventy two percent of voters think the 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.800 tariffs will hurt the US economy. That's because it will. Well, 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:02.400 only twenty two percent think the TIFFs will help you 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.640 as economy. This is a president who's doing really unpopular 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.599 things that people do not want and do not like. 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:14.920 And that is why it's so important. It is so 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:20.880 incredibly important to push back on all of this because 0:05:20.920 --> 0:05:23.400 nobody wants it yeah. 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:25.479 And speaking of them pushing the limits, we now have 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.320 a report that a US born attorney says she was 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.320 told to immediately self deport from the DHS. 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.760 Yeah. They send out these like very dogey and also 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:41.600 quite dodgy form emails to everybody who was like, you know, 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:45.840 an immigration lawyer, or I mean this woman had her 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.600 grandparents were born in this country. I mean, this is 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.120 the other thing, and this is really important to remember. 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:56.719 These people are incompetent. They are sending form emails telling 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.200 people to self deport people who are American citizens for 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:05.360 many generations. These people are incompetent. Do not I mean, 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.960 don't be scared. They are very, very, very bad at 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:11.120 what they do. Thank god. 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:12.320 Yeah. 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.520 She was born in Newton, works in Boston and has 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:18.200 no idea how she ended up on the government's list. 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:21.799 Was told she had seven days to leave the US. 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:24.800 According to the email, do not attempt to remain in 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.320 the United States. The federal government will find you. I've 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.920 been here my whole life, she told the Boston station. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.320 Yeah, I think I have an idea how she got 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:36.800 on that list. It's called AI is not very accurate 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:38.359 and makes mistakes all the time. 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.720 I don't know. AI says that I have chronic illnesses, 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:42.520 so I think. 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:46.960 That's kind of a good good So my good news 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:48.800 for you and I who've been calling for this for 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:52.520 many years. Hakim Jeffries, this is our Yeah. 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:56.440 Yeah, I can't. I can't control myself. I'm so excited 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:56.839 about tho. 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:01.320 Hakeem Jeffries backstock trading ban. After sure Marjorie Taylor Green 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:02.680 buys the market tip. 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:05.200 Yeah, I mean, who the fuck knows if Marjorie Taylor 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.400 Green is insider trading, but you know who is in trading? 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:12.240 A lot of other people Like this is sketchy as hell. 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.400 This is so bad. I don't want it. I don't 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:19.120 like it. Stop it, stop it, stop it right now. Honestly, 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.880 it is enough with the members of Congress should not 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.520 trade stocks. If you want to trade stocks, then don't 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:28.920 go work in Congress. Like period paragraph. There is no 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:34.760 absolutely no reason that this should happen. Absolutely nothing about 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:40.000 this is klosher. Yes, yes, ban it. Way to go, Jeffries. 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.080 And by the way, when we have normal elections and 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.800 Democrats win back the House, the first thing that needs 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.280 to happen, literally, the first thing that needs to happen 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.240 is there needs to be anti corruption. Lots of different 0:07:56.280 --> 0:08:01.040 anti corruption initiatives past, and one of the most important 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:04.760 ones I think will be that members of Congress can 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:07.960 no longer trade stocks. This is not okay, this is 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.880 not what the job is. You are not supposed to 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:15.280 be a day trader on the side. No, no, no, 0:08:15.280 --> 0:08:18.920 no more members trading stocks. That is over. 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.320 And the American people need to realize this is why 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.680 we get such shitty people's This is why their get 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:25.840 rich schemes and why they think they should do it. 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:29.920 Well, it's partially, I think, because it's a low key 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.360 grift and it opens the door to all other grifts. Right, 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:37.840 this is why those stupid things that Trump World used 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.400 to always laugh at, which they still do, like the 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:44.240 Hatch Act where you're not right, the hatchet you know 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:47.800 people really well. We can't talk about the campaign because 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.760 the Hatch Act and they may seem old fashioned, but 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.320 they're what keeps us from being a kleptocracy. And so 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:56.600 if Democrats win back the House, which I think they will, 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:01.120 this has to be job one. Nobody wants. People don't 0:09:01.160 --> 0:09:04.880 want their representatives making money off of them. 0:09:05.320 --> 0:09:07.640 I try out a theme for you for getting the 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.640 hatchet to the head if you disobey the Hatch Act. 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.280 Yeah, that is that's not going to do it. But 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:24.160 that is not going to do it. Kurt Anderson is 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:26.800 the author of Evil Geniuses and the co creator of 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:31.280 Command Zine. Welcome back to Fast Politics, Kurt Anderson. 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:34.880 Always a pleasure, even as it gets more and more nightmarish, 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:36.440 or especially. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:40.280 Perhaps it's so interesting because it's like Trump one point zero. 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.520 It's the difference between VEEP and a housive cards, right, 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:47.560 there's still a lot of VP incompetence, right, like Trump 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:51.000 bumbling his way into a trade war with China which 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:55.880 we can't possibly win it all, like nope. But there 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.920 are also other ways in which it is much much scary. 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:01.280 And I'm thinking about. 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.520 House of Cards edging toward Man in the High Castle. 0:10:05.600 --> 0:10:08.640 If we're sticking with top analogies. Yeah, no, it's it's 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:10.880 awful and it's interesting. I've been talking to people in 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:14.000 the last days, of course, about this, and people who 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:18.480 were you know, not Mogans, but like you know, centrist, 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:21.559 even right leaning in a couple of cases, who said, 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.959 like I really didn't believe it was going to be 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.200 this bad, and all the liberals were right, which is 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.560 something I guess, you know, I mean, better late than never, 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.800 I suppose, But yes, it is horrible. 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:38.439 And edging toward the it's really scary. 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.040 Well, and the disobeying the judiciary, which is the only 0:10:42.080 --> 0:10:44.200 thing we got right now, you know, getting closer and 0:10:44.240 --> 0:10:49.080 closer to disobeying Well. Has disobeyed and ignored several now 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:53.200 district court orders and has done nothing to obey last 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.160 week's Supreme Court order. So yeah, it's been getting very 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:58.120 quickly too, as bad as a guess. 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.280 But there are bright spots, for example, and we're going 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.160 to talk about a thread you did three days ago 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:08.319 in which you listed the hero firms suing the Trump 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:14.760 administration Wilmer Hale, Perkins, Cole, Sussman, Godfrey, Generin Block and 0:11:14.800 --> 0:11:22.120 the coward firms capitulating to autocracy Kirknells, Latham, Scatt, and Simpson, Thatcher, 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:25.280 Paul Weiss. I don't think these people realize just how 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:27.000 unpopular trump Ism is. 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.000 Well, they're not politicians in that sense, and so they 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.480 probably do. It's worse than that in other cases, and 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:36.959 I know people at some of those firms, and I've 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:39.440 talked to them. In the cases of people I spoke 0:11:39.520 --> 0:11:42.000 to who fought on the side in their firms of 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.600 not caving and not capitulating and not giving up on 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.560 the rule of law. And they're despairing and depressed. And 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.920 I don't think how unpopular he is, and he's getting 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:55.520 more so by the minute. Has been in there, thinking 0:11:55.679 --> 0:12:00.000 they panic because these firms in which the corporate partners. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.240 You can oversimplify, but it's pretty simple. 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:03.880 It seems it's a business. 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.679 Well, it's a business. And the litigators who are and 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.440 consider themselves in BUI large r people who care about 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:13.200 things other than how many millions or tens of millions 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.000 of dollars in some cases they make. And the litigators 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.440 were at these firms that I know about, fighting the 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:21.760 good fight and lost. So that's it. And the argument 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:25.280 was simply, okay, you corporate partners at the top make 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:27.840 by the way, this shock me as much as twenty 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.600 five million dollars a year. Oh yeah, and so a 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:32.800 lawyer really, I mean my dad was a lawyer. 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:40.040 I mean, come back, they need another beach house or. 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.760 Several more wives or whatever it is. Yeah, but it 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.800 was really, wait, okay, this is going to last forever 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:50.360 unless you capitulate and make it last longer. But you know, 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.600 your personal income won't go down from twenty five million 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.079 to nineteen for a few years. What are you thinking? 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.080 That was the argument, and they said, no, no, all 0:12:58.120 --> 0:12:59.920 we care about is money. It was it was that. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.840 It was that, and that's you know. I mean, in 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:06.160 my Pollyanna guy from Midwest way, I've continued to be 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:09.880 like surprised, and this surprised me, aknew as the Republicans 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:13.400 in Congress were surprising me starting eight years ago. Like really, 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.000 And in that case, basically, it's not that good of 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.040 a job that they're worried about losing. It's purely about money. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.240 But again I wonder with them, with the senior partners 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:24.880 and law firms. I mean, do they just think, Okay, 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.040 this will end one way or the other and sure 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:29.520 I will go back to normal. Whatever they think? What 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:32.280 are they thinking of the endgame? The legacy of not 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.400 just their firms, which are in the case of Paul 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:40.040 White's probably already besmirched permanently, but just themselves and their 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:43.360 children and their grandchildren. What do you do in the war, daddy? 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.000 All that stuff? I just I don't get it. 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.920 And you know, it's funny because it's like we are 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.840 so from the same moment in American history of my 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.240 grandfather held his head up on like he went to 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.800 jail for three months, but then he could go anywhere. 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.959 And so many of the people who behaved cowardly during 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:10.000 the McCarthy redhunt did not. You don't have to be 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.720 brave to do what's right. You can feel scared and 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:14.600 do it anyway. 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.640 Well, and that is brave. But yes, exactly right. And 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:21.880 you have standing via your grandfather and unlike say Ki 0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:25.600 Abrego Garcia accused of being a member of a gang 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.880 falsely and sent off to prison. I mean, you know 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.840 your grandfather was what he was, a communist and just 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.080 didn't go along with didn't put up with it. I 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:38.680 do take hope in small acts and large acts in 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:41.440 some cases of doing the right thing, which comes across 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:44.240 in these last three months as bravery. As Harvard did 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:44.920 the other day. 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.600 For instance, Harvard has learned a really good lesson from Colombia, 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.760 which is you cannot give up. You cannot because they 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:55.760 will never be enough for them. Say more about what 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:56.440 you're thinking here? 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.240 What you say, well, no, exactly, I mean that's the thing. 0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.320 I mean, we think you're going to make a deal 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.720 and do this and let him half run your university, 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.560 or maybe now in his next negotiator renegotiation run it. 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:10.320 You think this is going to do it, it's not. 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:14.840 If you're cooperating with this illegal set of obeying the 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:17.600 federal government's demands, it's not going to stop. It's going 0:15:17.640 --> 0:15:19.720 to keep going. But the Republican Commerce are not going 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:21.960 to something, and says, hey, wait, they agreed to your deal. 0:15:22.120 --> 0:15:24.160 We got to put a stop to this. The courts will. 0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:25.840 And then again that's why I get back to that. 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.200 I thought for eight years this will be the bulwark, 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.520 and they were eight years ago, right, and have more 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:34.480 than not been. But once he says, no, you know, 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.720 Supreme Court, federal judiciary, I'm not going to obey you. 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:38.280 I don't have to. 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:38.840 This is a war. 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:43.560 Whatever he says, whatever, nonsense, whatever, meretricious, bullshit he says. 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:43.720 What. 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:45.840 Then even a month or two ago, I was saying, oh, 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:47.560 it's not going to get to that so quickly. Well, 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:48.960 here we are on the verge. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.440 Here we are. One of the things that I want 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.840 to talk to you about is that I actually think 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.800 the tariffs, which are such a great example of how 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:03.520 Trump is both bompy and impetuous, two things you really 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:08.160 don't want in a president. I Completely unchecked, an unfettered 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:14.200 president is a really good opportunity for pushback because it 0:16:14.360 --> 0:16:18.080 is something that is getting even some of his staunchest allies. 0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.120 Not the Maga crowd, because that crowd is not ever 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:24.120 coming back, but even some of his staunchest allies don't 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:24.400 like this. 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.360 Oh well, first of all, I mean the supporters, the 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:31.960 farmer here, the small business person there. I think at 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:35.400 this point already most of US Americans know somebody whose 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.200 life is suddenly well, how's this going to work out? 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:38.360 Oh? 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.000 I can't get these hangars that are on the boat 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.480 right now from China. I mean that's a literal one. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.360 In my case, there's the people, many of whom voted 0:16:47.360 --> 0:16:50.360 for them. But then there's yeah, they're rich guys in 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:53.240 the Wall Street guys and the CEOs who, in their 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:57.680 amral to quasi moral way capitulated quickly and said no, 0:16:57.760 --> 0:16:59.240 And we love them because it's going to be great, 0:16:59.240 --> 0:17:01.040 and we're gonna get rid of regulation, and the taxes 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:03.440 are going to get stay alone, all that, all that stuff, 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.800 which has been of course the worst Republican bargain, Faustian 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.760 bargain for years and years, which is will take Trump 0:17:11.000 --> 0:17:13.520 and just as we will will take you know, the 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.600 Southern strategy of racism fifty years ago, because you know 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:20.280 they're more on our side. For economics, well, you know, 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:22.080 the tariff seems to have gotten them to a place 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.520 where wait, no, this is crazy, this is nuts and 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:29.119 so wildly. You know, you talk about Veep, it's so 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:33.760 beyond that, it's three stooges. It's crude and changing their 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.600 minds or his mind every day. And you realize, I 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.240 mean as we knew, but you realize even more how 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.359 in Trump won the adults in the room, all of 0:17:43.400 --> 0:17:46.159 whom ended up calling him an idiot and more terrible 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:48.640 and all that they have and do, they were saving 0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:51.320 him from himself and then saving America a little bit. 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:53.399 I mean again, I don't want to stay there. And 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:56.119 there were heroes and John Kelly, thank good. I'm not 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.960 saying that, but we do see the evidence of when 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:04.680 you have total Pam Bondy JD Vance types as your minions, 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:06.960 you know you're just going to do whatever nutty thing 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:08.840 you get in your mind to do. 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:11.240 I think that's really true, and I think it's a 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:17.760 really important point. I wonder about this idea of Americans 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:22.480 obsession with fantasy. Right, we elected a reality television host 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:28.600 once because we believed whatever, something happened, and then the 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.920 second time we had amnesia again. And I think we're 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:35.439 seeing a lot of people sort of waking up. But 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:40.239 how does this fit into your broader thesis about a 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.240 country that is obsessed with fantasy and. 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.840 Not just obsessed with in some benign ways and more 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:48.359 and more, And that was the point of my book. 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.960 Fantacy Land is in terrible ways where it gets into 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:55.440 this realm, the public sphere. Fine, have your Disneylands, play 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:58.320 your video games all day, all that that, whatever. Have 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:02.000 your in myndview crazy religion, fine, whatever, But when you 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.479 start having this whole alternative set of facts, as I 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.000 was arguing this book nine years ago, eight years ago, 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:12.560 it becomes really problematic. And when you have you know, 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:14.879 if we had to make a list of the five 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:20.600 most culpable enablers of this horrible, horrible, nightmarish place we've 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:22.680 gotten to and are getting to, it is, of course 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.240 Fox News, who enabled it and had the power more 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.000 than once to drive it back and push it back. 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:34.080 But here we are by far the largest audience you know, 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.080 news channel in the United States of America, most of 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:41.240 the time presenting a mostly false narrative of what is 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:44.199 going on. The free press was supposed to be like 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.800 the gatekeeper, which was the press for all of its 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.200 flaws forever. We never had well, we never had a 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:54.159 party as crazy as the Trump Republicans have become, but 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:58.640 we've never had a giant media entity pushing it on 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.520 several million people a day who watch it and beyond. 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.400 So that's the problem. And you know, and again that's 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.520 the thing that is hard to imagine, how that whenever 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:11.680 we reached end of this, and we will reach, it's 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.080 hard to imagine. As I've said to people who asked 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.240 me about the fantasy thing, like, well, how can we 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:19.879 stop this? I said, we can stop it from getting worse. 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:22.720 But I don't think we turned back. But as I 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.239 talked about in fancy Land in that context about the 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.399 what led to two thousand and eight and to you know, 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:31.840 the meltdown and financial panic and worldwide great recession, then 0:20:32.119 --> 0:20:35.040 was the good thing a good thing, A great thing 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.520 about free market economics is that it's based on reality. 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.680 I mean, it's based on momentary fantasies of this mean 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:43.959 stock is going to do this or this this crazy 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.760 meme stock like say Donald Trump media is going to 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.120 do this. But sooner or later, in that case, this 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.400 house of cards of credit default swaps and the mortgage 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.640 bubble collapsed. In this case, the tariffs are already not 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.880 only making it impossible for small businesses and large businesses 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.719 to decide what they're going to do next, which is 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:10.960 a fast path to recession and paralysis economically, it's so incompetent. It's, 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.080 as I said the other day, it's well fascism famously 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:16.480 in Germany was oh, well, at least he made the 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:20.360 trains run on time. Well, no, he's derailed the trains 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.399 as well, you know. I mean, so you can't spin 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:27.280 and fantasize about the reality of economics when they start 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.639 hitting big people, small people, all kinds of people, you know. 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:33.520 And that's the hopeful thing is when it comes to 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:37.439 things that don't really affect people's lives, they can ignore 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.920 them and buy them and go about their business. But again, 0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:43.960 I think of the warnings and fears about all kinds 0:21:43.960 --> 0:21:46.520 of things that Trump was doing. But until the ROV 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:50.959 Wade happened and Dobbs in twenty twenty two, and suddenly people, 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.919 women especially, we're saying, my god, what an important premise 0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:57.080 of my life is? Though Overturn has always saw that, 0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:00.520 because suddenly it was all kinds of people feeling affected, 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:03.199 same thing here or a different thing here, and anything 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:05.640 here is as we all know from in my case 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:09.760 listening to way too many remedial economic podcasts the last 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:12.320 two weeks. So I now understand what tariffs are. It's 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:17.320 beyond the tariffs and the madness and economic problems they caused, 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:19.800 the larger thing of like, well, no one's going to 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:22.800 trust us. No one is going to trust us. Every 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:25.920 economy and every economic system and the global economic system 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:29.920 are based on basic trust. And this is how it works. Oh, 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:33.120 there's ups and downs and black swans and blah blah blah. 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:36.840 But it's just hard to see in the most charitable, 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:41.600 you know, right leaning or right his view possible, how 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:44.000