1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and tourism cutbacks stand to cost the 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: United States approximately ninety billion dollars. We have such a 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: great show for you today. Evil Genius' author Kurt Anderson 6 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: stops by to talk about Trump crossing the lines of lawlessness. 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to documentarian Alex Gibney about his latest documentary, 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: The Dark Money Game, a documentary about how dark money 9 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: influences our politics. But first the news Smiley. 10 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 2: Many people are saying that now we're in the lawless groupicon, 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 2: that we've really really really stepped in it with Trump 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 2: giving the middle finger to the Supreme Court and saying 13 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: that this is a foreign affair that they don't have oversight. 14 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: So this is again like one of the parlor games 15 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: we play now, is are we in a constitutional crisis? 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: I like to call it as shorten your's constitutional crisis. 17 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: That's all right, both in and out, alive and dead. 18 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: Even having to ask that question, I think is a 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: pretty good sign that you're in a lot of trouble. 20 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: What we have here is like a semantic argument that 21 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: we see the Trump administration doing, which is exploiting the 22 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: law as much as possible. So they have been told 23 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: to bring Garcia back to the United States, but they 24 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: hadn't been quite clearly told how and sort of the timetable. 25 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: So they're kind of obfuscating and trying not to do 26 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: everything that they should be doing. And you know, this 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: is a great example of this administration's lawlessness. But I 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: think it is worse looking at this and realizing that 29 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: the reason why Trump keeps losing in the courts is 30 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: because the stuff they want to do is not lawful. 31 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: And so when you're a Harvard University or your MIT, 32 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: or you're one of these many universities it's being targeted 33 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: by the Trump administration, you can remind yourself that Trump 34 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: will lose in court because this is actually unlawful, and 35 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: so you don't have to go along with this, right 36 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: you can push back against these unlawful requests, and that's 37 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: what you need to do. And we're going to see 38 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: Trump is going to try to do this more and 39 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: people are going to have to stand up to things 40 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: that are unlawful in a peaceful and calm way. And 41 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: that's what Harvard did today. And that's what MIT did, 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: and that's what all of our universities are going to do, 43 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: because if there's one lesson that we can learn from 44 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: Columbia University, it is the lesson that trump Ism is 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,080 Speaker 1: very much not legal, and very much that if you 46 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: acquiesce to them even a little bit, they will not 47 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: be satisfied. In fact, that they will just decide that 48 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: they want more, and so don't comply, don't obey, peacefully 49 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: and smartly pushback. 50 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, and our lotmakers should be doing much more than that, 51 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: And it seems that some of them are discussing going 52 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: tell Salvador to really push back on this because this 53 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: is just such an egregious step over the line. 54 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's good that they're doing that, and 55 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: I'm glad to see Democrats finally doing the kind of 56 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: stuff that we've been wanting them to do, the kind 57 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: of pushback that needs to happen. Senator Chris van Holland, 58 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: who is by the way, pretty I would say straight 59 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: not mister woke by any start of the imagination. Right, 60 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: He's a Maryland Democratic Senator. He says that he's going 61 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: to go if Garcia is not returned by midweek. The 62 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: Senator will travel to Salvador. I just want to bring 63 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: up something which I think is actually quite important. These 64 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: things that Trump is doing are not popular, and I'm 65 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: going to read you a little bit of polling which 66 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 1: I think is actually quite important. So here's a poll 67 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: from Quinnipiac and it says more Americans now disapprove of 68 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: Trump on immigration than it's fifty percent to forty five percent. 69 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 1: Majority of Americans now disapprove of Trump on deportations fifty 70 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: three to forty two. So here's the deal. This is 71 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: not popular, right, This is not popular, This is not okay. 72 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: This is voters more than three to one see Trump's 73 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: tariffs hurting US economy in the short term but less 74 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: parish on the long term. This is real. Right on 75 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: the short term, seventy two percent of voters think the 76 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: tariffs will hurt the US economy. That's because it will. Well, 77 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: only twenty two percent think the TIFFs will help you 78 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: as economy. This is a president who's doing really unpopular 79 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: things that people do not want and do not like. 80 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: And that is why it's so important. It is so 81 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: incredibly important to push back on all of this because 82 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: nobody wants it yeah. 83 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 2: And speaking of them pushing the limits, we now have 84 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: a report that a US born attorney says she was 85 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: told to immediately self deport from the DHS. 86 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. They send out these like very dogey and also 87 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:41,600 Speaker 1: quite dodgy form emails to everybody who was like, you know, 88 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: an immigration lawyer, or I mean this woman had her 89 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: grandparents were born in this country. I mean, this is 90 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: the other thing, and this is really important to remember. 91 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: These people are incompetent. They are sending form emails telling 92 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:00,200 Speaker 1: people to self deport people who are American citizens for 93 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: many generations. These people are incompetent. Do not I mean, 94 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: don't be scared. They are very, very, very bad at 95 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: what they do. Thank god. 96 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 97 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: She was born in Newton, works in Boston and has 98 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: no idea how she ended up on the government's list. 99 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,799 Speaker 1: Was told she had seven days to leave the US. 100 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: According to the email, do not attempt to remain in 101 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: the United States. The federal government will find you. I've 102 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: been here my whole life, she told the Boston station. 103 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I have an idea how she got 104 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 2: on that list. It's called AI is not very accurate 105 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:38,359 Speaker 2: and makes mistakes all the time. 106 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. AI says that I have chronic illnesses, 107 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: so I think. 108 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: That's kind of a good good So my good news 109 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: for you and I who've been calling for this for 110 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: many years. Hakim Jeffries, this is our Yeah. 111 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't. I can't control myself. I'm so excited 112 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: about tho. 113 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: Hakeem Jeffries backstock trading ban. After sure Marjorie Taylor Green 114 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: buys the market tip. 115 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, who the fuck knows if Marjorie Taylor 116 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: Green is insider trading, but you know who is in trading? 117 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: A lot of other people Like this is sketchy as hell. 118 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: This is so bad. I don't want it. I don't 119 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: like it. Stop it, stop it, stop it right now. Honestly, 120 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: it is enough with the members of Congress should not 121 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: trade stocks. If you want to trade stocks, then don't 122 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: go work in Congress. Like period paragraph. There is no 123 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: absolutely no reason that this should happen. Absolutely nothing about 124 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: this is klosher. Yes, yes, ban it. Way to go, Jeffries. 125 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: And by the way, when we have normal elections and 126 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: Democrats win back the House, the first thing that needs 127 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: to happen, literally, the first thing that needs to happen 128 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: is there needs to be anti corruption. Lots of different 129 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: anti corruption initiatives past, and one of the most important 130 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: ones I think will be that members of Congress can 131 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: no longer trade stocks. This is not okay, this is 132 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: not what the job is. You are not supposed to 133 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: be a day trader on the side. No, no, no, 134 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: no more members trading stocks. That is over. 135 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 2: And the American people need to realize this is why 136 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 2: we get such shitty people's This is why their get 137 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: rich schemes and why they think they should do it. 138 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: Well, it's partially, I think, because it's a low key 139 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: grift and it opens the door to all other grifts. Right, 140 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: this is why those stupid things that Trump World used 141 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: to always laugh at, which they still do, like the 142 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: Hatch Act where you're not right, the hatchet you know 143 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: people really well. We can't talk about the campaign because 144 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 1: the Hatch Act and they may seem old fashioned, but 145 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: they're what keeps us from being a kleptocracy. And so 146 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: if Democrats win back the House, which I think they will, 147 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: this has to be job one. Nobody wants. People don't 148 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: want their representatives making money off of them. 149 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: I try out a theme for you for getting the 150 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 2: hatchet to the head if you disobey the Hatch Act. 151 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is that's not going to do it. But 152 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: that is not going to do it. Kurt Anderson is 153 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 1: the author of Evil Geniuses and the co creator of 154 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: Command Zine. Welcome back to Fast Politics, Kurt Anderson. 155 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 3: Always a pleasure, even as it gets more and more nightmarish, 156 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 3: or especially. 157 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: Perhaps it's so interesting because it's like Trump one point zero. 158 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: It's the difference between VEEP and a housive cards, right, 159 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: there's still a lot of VP incompetence, right, like Trump 160 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: bumbling his way into a trade war with China which 161 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: we can't possibly win it all, like nope. But there 162 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: are also other ways in which it is much much scary. 163 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about. 164 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 3: House of Cards edging toward Man in the High Castle. 165 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 3: If we're sticking with top analogies. Yeah, no, it's it's 166 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 3: awful and it's interesting. I've been talking to people in 167 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 3: the last days, of course, about this, and people who 168 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 3: were you know, not Mogans, but like you know, centrist, 169 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 3: even right leaning in a couple of cases, who said, 170 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 3: like I really didn't believe it was going to be 171 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 3: this bad, and all the liberals were right, which is 172 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 3: something I guess, you know, I mean, better late than never, 173 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 3: I suppose, But yes, it is horrible. 174 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: And edging toward the it's really scary. 175 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 3: Well, and the disobeying the judiciary, which is the only 176 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 3: thing we got right now, you know, getting closer and 177 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 3: closer to disobeying Well. Has disobeyed and ignored several now 178 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 3: district court orders and has done nothing to obey last 179 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: week's Supreme Court order. So yeah, it's been getting very 180 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 3: quickly too, as bad as a guess. 181 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 1: But there are bright spots, for example, and we're going 182 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: to talk about a thread you did three days ago 183 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:08,319 Speaker 1: in which you listed the hero firms suing the Trump 184 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: administration Wilmer Hale, Perkins, Cole, Sussman, Godfrey, Generin Block and 185 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: the coward firms capitulating to autocracy Kirknells, Latham, Scatt, and Simpson, Thatcher, 186 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: Paul Weiss. I don't think these people realize just how 187 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: unpopular trump Ism is. 188 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 3: Well, they're not politicians in that sense, and so they 189 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 3: probably do. It's worse than that in other cases, and 190 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 3: I know people at some of those firms, and I've 191 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 3: talked to them. In the cases of people I spoke 192 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 3: to who fought on the side in their firms of 193 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 3: not caving and not capitulating and not giving up on 194 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 3: the rule of law. And they're despairing and depressed. And 195 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: I don't think how unpopular he is, and he's getting 196 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: more so by the minute. Has been in there, thinking 197 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: they panic because these firms in which the corporate partners. 198 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 3: You can oversimplify, but it's pretty simple. 199 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: It seems it's a business. 200 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 3: Well, it's a business. And the litigators who are and 201 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 3: consider themselves in BUI large r people who care about 202 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 3: things other than how many millions or tens of millions 203 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: of dollars in some cases they make. And the litigators 204 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: were at these firms that I know about, fighting the 205 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 3: good fight and lost. So that's it. And the argument 206 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 3: was simply, okay, you corporate partners at the top make 207 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 3: by the way, this shock me as much as twenty 208 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 3: five million dollars a year. Oh yeah, and so a 209 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 3: lawyer really, I mean my dad was a lawyer. 210 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: I mean, come back, they need another beach house or. 211 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 3: Several more wives or whatever it is. Yeah, but it 212 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 3: was really, wait, okay, this is going to last forever 213 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 3: unless you capitulate and make it last longer. But you know, 214 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 3: your personal income won't go down from twenty five million 215 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 3: to nineteen for a few years. What are you thinking? 216 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 3: That was the argument, and they said, no, no, all 217 00:12:58,120 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 3: we care about is money. It was it was that. 218 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 3: It was that, and that's you know. I mean, in 219 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 3: my Pollyanna guy from Midwest way, I've continued to be 220 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 3: like surprised, and this surprised me, aknew as the Republicans 221 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 3: in Congress were surprising me starting eight years ago. Like really, 222 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 3: And in that case, basically, it's not that good of 223 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 3: a job that they're worried about losing. It's purely about money. 224 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 3: But again I wonder with them, with the senior partners 225 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 3: and law firms. I mean, do they just think, Okay, 226 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 3: this will end one way or the other and sure 227 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 3: I will go back to normal. Whatever they think? What 228 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 3: are they thinking of the endgame? The legacy of not 229 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 3: just their firms, which are in the case of Paul 230 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 3: White's probably already besmirched permanently, but just themselves and their 231 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 3: children and their grandchildren. What do you do in the war, daddy? 232 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 3: All that stuff? I just I don't get it. 233 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny because it's like we are 234 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: so from the same moment in American history of my 235 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: grandfather held his head up on like he went to 236 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: jail for three months, but then he could go anywhere. 237 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,959 Speaker 1: And so many of the people who behaved cowardly during 238 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: the McCarthy redhunt did not. You don't have to be 239 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: brave to do what's right. You can feel scared and 240 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: do it anyway. 241 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 3: Well, and that is brave. But yes, exactly right. And 242 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 3: you have standing via your grandfather and unlike say Ki 243 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 3: Abrego Garcia accused of being a member of a gang 244 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 3: falsely and sent off to prison. I mean, you know 245 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 3: your grandfather was what he was, a communist and just 246 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 3: didn't go along with didn't put up with it. I 247 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 3: do take hope in small acts and large acts in 248 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 3: some cases of doing the right thing, which comes across 249 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 3: in these last three months as bravery. As Harvard did 250 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 3: the other day. 251 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: For instance, Harvard has learned a really good lesson from Colombia, 252 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: which is you cannot give up. You cannot because they 253 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: will never be enough for them. Say more about what 254 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: you're thinking here? 255 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 3: What you say, well, no, exactly, I mean that's the thing. 256 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 3: I mean, we think you're going to make a deal 257 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: and do this and let him half run your university, 258 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 3: or maybe now in his next negotiator renegotiation run it. 259 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 3: You think this is going to do it, it's not. 260 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 3: If you're cooperating with this illegal set of obeying the 261 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 3: federal government's demands, it's not going to stop. It's going 262 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 3: to keep going. But the Republican Commerce are not going 263 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 3: to something, and says, hey, wait, they agreed to your deal. 264 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 3: We got to put a stop to this. The courts will. 265 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 3: And then again that's why I get back to that. 266 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 3: I thought for eight years this will be the bulwark, 267 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 3: and they were eight years ago, right, and have more 268 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 3: than not been. But once he says, no, you know, 269 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: Supreme Court, federal judiciary, I'm not going to obey you. 270 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 3: I don't have to. 271 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: This is a war. 272 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 3: Whatever he says, whatever, nonsense, whatever, meretricious, bullshit he says. 273 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: What. 274 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 3: Then even a month or two ago, I was saying, oh, 275 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 3: it's not going to get to that so quickly. Well, 276 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 3: here we are on the verge. 277 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: Here we are. One of the things that I want 278 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: to talk to you about is that I actually think 279 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: the tariffs, which are such a great example of how 280 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: Trump is both bompy and impetuous, two things you really 281 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: don't want in a president. I Completely unchecked, an unfettered 282 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: president is a really good opportunity for pushback because it 283 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 1: is something that is getting even some of his staunchest allies. 284 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: Not the Maga crowd, because that crowd is not ever 285 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: coming back, but even some of his staunchest allies don't 286 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: like this. 287 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 3: Oh well, first of all, I mean the supporters, the 288 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 3: farmer here, the small business person there. I think at 289 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 3: this point already most of US Americans know somebody whose 290 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 3: life is suddenly well, how's this going to work out? 291 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: Oh? 292 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 3: I can't get these hangars that are on the boat 293 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 3: right now from China. I mean that's a literal one. 294 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 3: In my case, there's the people, many of whom voted 295 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 3: for them. But then there's yeah, they're rich guys in 296 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 3: the Wall Street guys and the CEOs who, in their 297 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 3: amral to quasi moral way capitulated quickly and said no, 298 00:16:57,760 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 3: And we love them because it's going to be great, 299 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 3: and we're gonna get rid of regulation, and the taxes 300 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 3: are going to get stay alone, all that, all that stuff, 301 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 3: which has been of course the worst Republican bargain, Faustian 302 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: bargain for years and years, which is will take Trump 303 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 3: and just as we will will take you know, the 304 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 3: Southern strategy of racism fifty years ago, because you know 305 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 3: they're more on our side. For economics, well, you know, 306 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 3: the tariff seems to have gotten them to a place 307 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 3: where wait, no, this is crazy, this is nuts and 308 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 3: so wildly. You know, you talk about Veep, it's so 309 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 3: beyond that, it's three stooges. It's crude and changing their 310 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 3: minds or his mind every day. And you realize, I 311 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 3: mean as we knew, but you realize even more how 312 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 3: in Trump won the adults in the room, all of 313 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 3: whom ended up calling him an idiot and more terrible 314 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 3: and all that they have and do, they were saving 315 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 3: him from himself and then saving America a little bit. 316 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 3: I mean again, I don't want to stay there. And 317 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 3: there were heroes and John Kelly, thank good. I'm not 318 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 3: saying that, but we do see the evidence of when 319 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 3: you have total Pam Bondy JD Vance types as your minions, 320 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: you know you're just going to do whatever nutty thing 321 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 3: you get in your mind to do. 322 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: I think that's really true, and I think it's a 323 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: really important point. I wonder about this idea of Americans 324 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: obsession with fantasy. Right, we elected a reality television host 325 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: once because we believed whatever, something happened, and then the 326 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: second time we had amnesia again. And I think we're 327 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: seeing a lot of people sort of waking up. But 328 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:40,239 Speaker 1: how does this fit into your broader thesis about a 329 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: country that is obsessed with fantasy and. 330 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: Not just obsessed with in some benign ways and more 331 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 3: and more, And that was the point of my book. 332 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 3: Fantacy Land is in terrible ways where it gets into 333 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 3: this realm, the public sphere. Fine, have your Disneylands, play 334 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 3: your video games all day, all that that, whatever. Have 335 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 3: your in myndview crazy religion, fine, whatever, But when you 336 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,479 Speaker 3: start having this whole alternative set of facts, as I 337 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 3: was arguing this book nine years ago, eight years ago, 338 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 3: it becomes really problematic. And when you have you know, 339 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 3: if we had to make a list of the five 340 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 3: most culpable enablers of this horrible, horrible, nightmarish place we've 341 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 3: gotten to and are getting to, it is, of course 342 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 3: Fox News, who enabled it and had the power more 343 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 3: than once to drive it back and push it back. 344 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 3: But here we are by far the largest audience you know, 345 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 3: news channel in the United States of America, most of 346 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 3: the time presenting a mostly false narrative of what is 347 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 3: going on. The free press was supposed to be like 348 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 3: the gatekeeper, which was the press for all of its 349 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 3: flaws forever. We never had well, we never had a 350 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 3: party as crazy as the Trump Republicans have become, but 351 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 3: we've never had a giant media entity pushing it on 352 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 3: several million people a day who watch it and beyond. 353 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 3: So that's the problem. And you know, and again that's 354 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 3: the thing that is hard to imagine, how that whenever 355 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 3: we reached end of this, and we will reach, it's 356 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 3: hard to imagine. As I've said to people who asked 357 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 3: me about the fantasy thing, like, well, how can we 358 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 3: stop this? I said, we can stop it from getting worse. 359 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: But I don't think we turned back. But as I 360 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,239 Speaker 3: talked about in fancy Land in that context about the 361 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 3: what led to two thousand and eight and to you know, 362 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 3: the meltdown and financial panic and worldwide great recession, then 363 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 3: was the good thing a good thing, A great thing 364 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: about free market economics is that it's based on reality. 365 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 3: I mean, it's based on momentary fantasies of this mean 366 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 3: stock is going to do this or this this crazy 367 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 3: meme stock like say Donald Trump media is going to 368 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,120 Speaker 3: do this. But sooner or later, in that case, this 369 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 3: house of cards of credit default swaps and the mortgage 370 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,640 Speaker 3: bubble collapsed. In this case, the tariffs are already not 371 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 3: only making it impossible for small businesses and large businesses 372 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,719 Speaker 3: to decide what they're going to do next, which is 373 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 3: a fast path to recession and paralysis economically, it's so incompetent. It's, 374 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 3: as I said the other day, it's well fascism famously 375 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 3: in Germany was oh, well, at least he made the 376 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,360 Speaker 3: trains run on time. Well, no, he's derailed the trains 377 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 3: as well, you know. I mean, so you can't spin 378 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 3: and fantasize about the reality of economics when they start 379 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,639 Speaker 3: hitting big people, small people, all kinds of people, you know. 380 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 3: And that's the hopeful thing is when it comes to 381 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 3: things that don't really affect people's lives, they can ignore 382 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 3: them and buy them and go about their business. But again, 383 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 3: I think of the warnings and fears about all kinds 384 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 3: of things that Trump was doing. But until the ROV 385 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,959 Speaker 3: Wade happened and Dobbs in twenty twenty two, and suddenly people, 386 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 3: women especially, we're saying, my god, what an important premise 387 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 3: of my life is? Though Overturn has always saw that, 388 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: because suddenly it was all kinds of people feeling affected, 389 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,199 Speaker 3: same thing here or a different thing here, and anything 390 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 3: here is as we all know from in my case 391 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 3: listening to way too many remedial economic podcasts the last 392 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 3: two weeks. So I now understand what tariffs are. It's 393 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 3: beyond the tariffs and the madness and economic problems they caused, 394 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 3: the larger thing of like, well, no one's going to 395 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 3: trust us. No one is going to trust us. Every 396 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 3: economy and every economic system and the global economic system 397 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 3: are based on basic trust. And this is how it works. Oh, 398 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 3: there's ups and downs and black swans and blah blah blah. 399 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 3: But it's just hard to see in the most charitable, 400 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 3: you know, right leaning or right his view possible, how 401 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 3: this not only doesn't end well, but how it ends well, 402 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 3: but how it doesn't damage unfortunately. And this is a 403 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,679 Speaker 3: hobbyhorse of mind, is what damage can be fixed as 404 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 3: soon as he's gone, and what damage takes a year? 405 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: What damage takes five years, ten, you know, a lot 406 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 3: of it's longer, and whether it's economic trust or whether 407 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 3: it's science. I've talked to neuroscientists friend of mine about 408 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 3: can this just be fixed as soon as we get 409 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 3: sanity back? She said, no, really, because things are if 410 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 3: for the next year, two three years, people are going 411 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 3: to Canada, not in doing this, not going into the 412 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 3: It's a longer term damage than just what he's doing 413 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 3: until you know he's gone. 414 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, And I think that's really the most pertinent point. 415 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, Thank you. Kurt Anderson. 416 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 3: My pleasure, I guess that's my pleasure, but it is 417 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 3: always my pleasure to talk to you, so thank you. 418 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: Alex Gibney is a legendary documentary producer and director of 419 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: films like Going Clear, Zero Days, and his latest The 420 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: Dark Money Game, which is out now. Welcome Alex Gibney 421 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: to Fast Politics. 422 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 4: Thanks Molly, good to be here. 423 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,959 Speaker 1: I'm so glad to have you with this movie. I mean, 424 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: I'm always glad to have you because you're so small 425 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: and you're constantly sort of investigating all the stuff that 426 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: I think about and freak out about. But this is 427 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: such an important topic, especially where we are right now. 428 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: So explain to me about this movie, why you decided 429 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: to do it, and how you got here. 430 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:16,959 Speaker 4: I mean, I kind of got here for two reasons. 431 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 4: One is I was kind of enraged over the Dobbs decision, 432 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 4: and at the same time, I had also just finished 433 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 4: a couple of films called The Crime of the Century 434 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 4: about the opioid crisis, the conclusion of which was that 435 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 4: unless we do something about money and politics, none of 436 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 4: our worst problems are ever going to change. And so 437 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 4: it really motivated me to get into it. And as 438 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 4: my co conspirator, I had turned to a longtime friend, 439 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 4: Jane Mayer, who had written the book Dark Money. And 440 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 4: while this doesn't follow the book, you know, there are 441 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 4: a few things you might recognize from it, it's very 442 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,879 Speaker 4: much inspired by it. And so as a result, I 443 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 4: leaned in because I do feel like this is topic A. 444 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 4: Unless we solve this problem, we're not going to solve 445 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 4: anything else. 446 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 1: My first question was going to be about Chain, who 447 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: is brilliant and amazing and also who has basically, I mean, 448 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: she does a lot of different work, but it feels 449 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: to me like Dark Money is kind of her through 450 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: line and all her work. I first interviewed you about COVID, right, 451 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: but the Trump presidency really is a story of dark 452 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: money's success. And I wonder if you could sort of 453 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: tie these two things together, Dobbs and also Trump's ongoing presidency, 454 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: because all of these have been enabled by this conservative 455 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: win at the courts. 456 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 3: Right. 457 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 4: So this series that I've done, it's two films. Really. 458 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 4: One is called Ohio Confidential and one is called Wealth 459 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 4: of the Wicked. Ohio Confidential is about how money and 460 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 4: politics works now and how basically corruption has become virtually legalized. 461 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 4: And then Both of the Wicked is how we got here, 462 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 4: and that really focuses on the corruption of the Supreme Court. 463 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 4: And that's how Dobbs gets into it, because one of 464 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 4: the things I learned about Dobbs was how much money 465 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 4: was involved in terms of trying to pack the court. 466 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 4: And also the other odd thing about the story that 467 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 4: we tell in Wealth of the Wicked is this unholy 468 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 4: alliance between very wealthy, very conservative business types who wanted 469 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 4: to rip apart the regulatory state that was erected not 470 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 4: only going back to Roosevelt, but also you know, in 471 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 4: the wake of the corruption of the Nixon administration. They 472 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 4: wanted to figure out how to rip it apart. But 473 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 4: it turned out that their prescriptions, like allowing companies to 474 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 4: pollute freely, hiding the connections to cancer that cigarette makers 475 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 4: clearly had, trying to bust unions, all of those things 476 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 4: weren't terribly popular. Question was, how do you mind a 477 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 4: vein of deep emotional fervor that gets you some popular support, 478 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 4: and that turned out to be the anti abortion movement 479 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 4: and evangelical Christians. So joining forces together is the way 480 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 4: that these big time conservative capitalists would fund the anti 481 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 4: abortion movement and help propel their progress through the courts. 482 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 4: And at the same time, these evangelicals, while you know, 483 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 4: if you think about Christianity, you don't automatically think like 484 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,199 Speaker 4: Jesus didn't think about how to enable the rich and 485 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 4: amiserate the poor. It was just the opposite. But nevertheless, 486 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 4: in this context, they were so exercised over the idea 487 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 4: of abortion as murder that they joined forces with these 488 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 4: very conservative business people in order to try to see 489 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 4: if they could corrupt the court. And that's the story 490 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 4: we tell. 491 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: And I think that it very much worked. I mean, 492 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: Dobbs did a really great example of how they got there, 493 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: And I mean, I just wonder once they got Dobbs, 494 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: was that enough. Was there a moment where they were like, 495 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: we've done it or. 496 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 4: Now no, now they would turn to all of the 497 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 4: economic regulations that they wanted this, and not only that, 498 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 4: but also to maybe the crowning achievement, if you can 499 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 4: call it an achievement, was their decision to basically give 500 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 4: total immunity to the president of the United States. And 501 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 4: once you do that, you're fundamentally undermining the rule of law, 502 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,479 Speaker 4: because if we're not all equal under the law, and 503 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 4: if you have the person the Coppo D two D 504 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 4: copy who's able to run the presidency like a mob 505 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 4: boss and only reward loyalty rather than good policy, then 506 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 4: we've reached a very perilous moment. So it was just 507 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 4: the beginning. And one of the things we talk about too, 508 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 4: is that it all kind of started with the Supreme 509 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 4: Court decision which helped both things, which was Citizens United. 510 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 4: That's the decision that allows money to flood in to 511 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 4: the political system. And then Citizens United is coupled with 512 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 4: that allowed money to flow into super packs and they 513 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 4: were supposed to be allegedly independent of the candidate, which 514 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 4: was always an invitation to corruption. Gives an indication to 515 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 4: those soto voce conversations that people have. They're not written 516 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 4: down on email there, you know, just somebody from the 517 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 4: candidates camp and somebody from the superpack. Oh, of course 518 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 4: it's corrupt. But coupled with the increasing use of five 519 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 4: oh one c fours, which are nonprofit organizations that can 520 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 4: literally shield people from seeing the contributions that are coming 521 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 4: into them. And so you use five oh one c 522 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 4: fours to fund super packs and suddenly you have no sunlight. 523 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,479 Speaker 4: That's the story we tell in the Ohio segment because 524 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 4: you at a utility company called First Energy, which dumped 525 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 4: sixty million dollars into a five oh one C four 526 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 4: for the personal use of the person who ultimately became 527 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 4: Speaker of the Ohio House, Larry Householder, and he used 528 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 4: that to enhance his political ambitions, and the quid pro 529 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 4: quo was that then he would jam through a bill 530 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 4: in the Ohio legislature that would give First Energy one 531 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 4: point three billion dollars, so great return on investment. But nobody, 532 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 4: you know, because it was a five oh one C four, 533 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 4: nobody really knew that the money was coming from First Energy, 534 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 4: so it took a long time to figure that out, 535 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 4: became the source of a criminal investigation and was only 536 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 4: discovered by accident, which is why we know about it. 537 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 1: There's a lot to despair about when it comes to 538 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. 539 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 4: Right. 540 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: We have these two very fox new zy justices Alito 541 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: and Thomas, who basically, as far as I can tell, 542 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 1: they're basically like elderly versions of Tucker Carlson. You can 543 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: pretty much get them to rubbers damp anything Donald Trump 544 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: wants to do. Gorsich and Kavanaugh sa same with the 545 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: exception that Gorsich likes Native Americans. Okay, But then you 546 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: have Justice Amy, who is a little bit of a 547 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: wild card. Putting in these Supreme Court justice it has 548 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 1: been such a win for him, and they have been 549 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: so empowered, and they have acted in such lockstep with 550 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: the exception of Justice Barrett. Do you see push back 551 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: there at all? And again, I'm not saying she's great. 552 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 1: I'm just saying there used to be a thing where 553 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justices, when they would get on the court, 554 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: they would become a slightly less partisan. The only time 555 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: we've seen this now has been with Amy Connie Barrett. 556 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: The other ones are just partisan hacks all the way through. 557 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: Have you seen pushback to that? And also do you 558 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: think that sort of the powers that be that are 559 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: funding this whole organization have sort of feelings about that. 560 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 4: I don't know yet. I mean, she has pushed back 561 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 4: on a couple of things. Just yesterday she pushed back. 562 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 4: She was the fourth vote in descent on you know, 563 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 4: this extra judicial attempts by the Trump administration. But so 564 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, you know, she falls in 565 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 4: line to the profile in the sense that she's so 566 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 4: a Catholic. Like that's the other mind boggling thing in 567 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 4: terms of a kind of conservative Catholicism that all of these, 568 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 4: many of these justices seem to share. And even Gorsuch, 569 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 4: who I believe is episcopalian now was raised athletic I. 570 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: Believe, yeah, the only one. 571 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 4: So I don't know, I will see. I mean, it 572 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 4: has been eliminating, and some of her descents, I must say, 573 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 4: have also been kind of excoriating. You know, there's been 574 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 4: a certain bite to her descents. In some cases she 575 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 4: seems to be saying, like, you know, have you guys 576 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,719 Speaker 4: left the reservation here that is the rule of law reservation. 577 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 4: She seems to have a tether to that. 578 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: Still, it's very very strange and interesting. Part of I 579 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: think some of how we got here was that there 580 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: was a real allergy towards some of the anti corruption 581 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: laws post Nixon, and instead of implementing them, they weren't implemented. 582 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: In fact, more of them were taken apart. If we 583 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: ever do get normal life back and we have Democrats 584 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: in charge, since you've studied this so much and you 585 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: understand it so well, what would you say are the 586 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: things that, if you're rebuilding this demand or se you 587 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: want to be focused on. 588 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 4: I think Congress has to get its act together and 589 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 4: focus on legislation which design anti corruption laws in a 590 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 4: rigorous way. But it's very hard to imagine that as 591 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 4: long as they're beholden to sponsors or contributors, funders whose 592 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 4: interests lie in just the opposite. They want quid pro 593 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,680 Speaker 4: quoth so long as it's for them, So that I 594 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 4: think it is the trick. You know. One of the 595 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 4: decisions we look at very briefly in Wealth of the 596 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 4: Wicked is the decision related to an Indiana mayor who 597 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 4: awarded a purchase of garbage trucks to the Peterbilt Company, 598 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 4: and after he awarded it, the Peterbilt company sent him, 599 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 4: you know, a kickback. Right after he was convicted of bribery. 600 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 4: The Supreme Court overturned it because, in their wisdom, it 601 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 4: was not a kickback. Oh no, haven't. It was a gratuity. 602 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 4: And just like you would hip a waiter. We can't 603 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 4: have waiters going to prison because they're being tipped. But no, 604 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 4: it was an obvious kickback. The essence of their decision, 605 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 4: I think, was to say, when it comes to business, 606 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,520 Speaker 4: they should have latitude to bribe because that's how you 607 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 4: get stuff done, which is mind boggling to me, but 608 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 4: I think that's kind of where we've ended up. So 609 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 4: I think, to me, the hope is that people see 610 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 4: and understand this is bribery, pure and simple, and I 611 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 4: think most on a gut level don't think it's appropriate 612 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 4: for people to bribe for their personal advantage at the 613 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,959 Speaker 4: expense of the rest of us. And once we begin 614 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,000 Speaker 4: to see it that way, we can demand at the 615 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 4: state level and ultimately in the federal level, that some 616 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 4: of this be cleaned up, because otherwise, you know, all 617 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 4: sorts of backroom deals are going to be made at 618 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,959 Speaker 4: our expense and for the profit of a few. 619 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 1: That case is an incredible case because they ultimately say 620 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: it wasn't goods for services because it happened after At 621 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: least in my mind, it really proves that the corruption 622 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: was not limited to Trump, that there's an entire ecosystem 623 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: outside of him, this sort of Leonard Leo crew that 624 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: Trump is a natural extension of that. 625 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 4: That's right. I mean, he's kind of their figurehead. He's 626 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,440 Speaker 4: the guy that delivers the votes. The ideological infrastructure or 627 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 4: superstructure is the federal Society and people like Lenard Leo 628 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 4: and others, and also very wealthy businessmen people you know, 629 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 4: like the Koch brothers and others that Jane Mayers does 630 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 4: such a good job of describing, because what they want 631 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 4: is a world where there are no rules and restrictions 632 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 4: on corporate behavior. And it's interesting. You know, there's an 633 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 4: interesting figure in Wealth of the Wicked, the one we 634 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 4: do about the corruption of the Supreme Court, a guy 635 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 4: named Bob Schenk who was an evangelical minister's very radical. 636 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,439 Speaker 4: You know, he was one of those guys who would 637 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,760 Speaker 4: show up with aborted fetuses at rallies, and very vicious 638 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 4: had a change of heart completely on that issue. But 639 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 4: in so doing he was able to talk to us 640 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 4: about how they would corrupt the justices. Sort of in 641 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 4: the back room. They would send they called faith based 642 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 4: missionaries in to see the justices. They were very wealthy 643 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,719 Speaker 4: businessmen who were also religious, and they would hang with 644 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 4: the justices, and they would take them on expensive trips, 645 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 4: and lo and behold, the justices seemed to start becoming 646 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 4: hypnotized by their work to such an extent that they 647 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 4: then their decisions then begin to represent this long continuum 648 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 4: of an attempt to destroy the regulatory state. 649 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: I see that with Thomas, right, Thomas has been on 650 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,319 Speaker 1: all these trips, He's been given wine, his mother's house 651 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: has been turned into a museum. I mean, just the 652 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: sort of level of corruption there is kind of staggering. 653 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,239 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about something that I think 654 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: is quite interesting, that feels relevant. So Leo and the 655 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: surviving Koch brother have now fun a case that is 656 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: an anti tariff case that will go to the Supreme Court. 657 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: It's hard to pick a side on this one, right, 658 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,319 Speaker 1: but that is going to challenge Trump's constitutional authority to 659 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: enact tariffs to talk to me, well, I don't. 660 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 4: Know how to say it. I mean, it is it's 661 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 4: coming from exactly the opposite end of the political spectrum 662 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,719 Speaker 4: that you would expect. But the one thing I think 663 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,160 Speaker 4: big business leaders were shot by in this Trump presidency 664 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 4: was this kind of tariff nuttiness. I mean, I'm not 665 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 4: opposed to you know, targeted tariffs myself, but this tariff nuttiness, 666 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 4: and so it's bad for business. Ultimately, that's why we 667 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 4: call it, you know, the dark money game. Ultimately, all 668 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 4: of this stuff is just about money. You know, once 669 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 4: you decide that all you care about is money and 670 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 4: nothing else matters, well then you just go where the 671 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,839 Speaker 4: money is. You follow the money, and so that Leonard Leo. 672 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 4: I mean, in a way, I'm on their side in 673 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,680 Speaker 4: this particular instance, but I'm suspect of their motives because 674 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 4: I think their motives is like, these taiffs are bad 675 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 4: for business. 676 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: But it seems like that crew has a lot more 677 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: sway with the justices and Trump does. 678 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,400 Speaker 4: Hard to know, I mean, the justices seem to be 679 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 4: giving so much deference to Trump and his executive power 680 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 4: and none of this I don't think would be happening 681 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 4: without that horrific decision giving him absolunity. 682 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, Alex, give me always a delight and a pleasure. 683 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,719 Speaker 1: And you know, I'm just a fan so. 684 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 4: Well, Molly, I'm a fan of yours too, So great 685 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 4: to talk. 686 00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: Thanks Alex. There no Moscly, Jesse Cannon, Molly. 687 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 2: We have been talking about this for so many months. 688 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 2: We've had Justice Allison Riggs on this podcast numerous times, 689 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 2: and the fuckery keeps getting worse in her race that 690 00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 2: is still undecided and it is April. 691 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it should be decided for her. And 692 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: now what's happening is that basically this is conservatives in 693 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: North Carolina trying to rig it for him. And this 694 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: is why everything matters. Right. A federal court should have 695 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: heeded the advice of Justice Anton Scalia in the two 696 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 1: thousand Bush biku Or case about not following a questionable 697 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: redo a vote totals to be announced before there's a 698 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: ruling on the legality of the redo. The judges orders 699 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: in North Carolina could well lead people to believe the 700 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: Supreme Court election was stolen. No matter what happens, and 701 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 1: by the way, Justice Riggs won, this is like this 702 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,479 Speaker 1: guy is a very sore loser, and now he's trying 703 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 1: to throw out votes from different places. 704 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 2: Mostly military votes, which that's cute. 705 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,280 Speaker 1: Yeah it is. I mean, these people are serving our country, 706 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: risking their lives, and the Republicans want to throw out 707 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,839 Speaker 1: their votes. I don't get it. They do not get it. 708 00:39:58,920 --> 00:39:59,840 Speaker 1: I really hate school. 709 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,920 Speaker 2: Yeah really, he seems like your type of guy. 710 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 711 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best 712 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 713 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 714 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.