1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,599 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here. 2 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 2: the future of the show. 5 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest 6 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does 7 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else. 8 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please 9 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and 10 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 2: you'll access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, and 11 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 2: all put together for you every morning in your inbox. 12 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent 13 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints 14 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: dot com. All right, hello everybody, Happy Saturday. It is 15 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: Ryan and I here to break down the everything that's 16 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: gone on in the news. And you may have noticed 17 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,639 Speaker 1: that we actually have a very special guest who we're 18 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: very honored to be joined by, Professor John Meerscheimer the 19 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: University of Chicago, an intellectual hero of mine and a 20 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: great friend of the show. Sir, thank you so much 21 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: for joining us. 22 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 3: We really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. 23 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 4: It's my pleasure to be here with you and Ryan. 24 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely, sir, So we are going to go through with 25 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: you everything that happen yesterday at the Trump Putin summit, 26 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: as well as some of the information that is now 27 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,479 Speaker 1: coming out as a result. So just for everybody purposes, 28 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: we're recording this around nine am Eastern time. Things could 29 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: obviously change with the diplomatic situation, but this is generally 30 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 1: where things stand as of right now. So Griffin, could 31 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: we go ahead and start to kind of the show 32 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: of the summit where Trump made a big grand gesture 33 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: at the in Alaska. At that summit, greeting Putin with 34 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: the red carpet lined with US fighter jets, he flew 35 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: a B two bomber escort over Putin's head as a 36 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: show of a tremendous military might. That seemed to kind 37 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 1: of be the tone that Trump wanted to set a 38 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: reminder to Putin quote whose boss? But things very quickly 39 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: changed from their professor. What we started to see was 40 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: a nearly three hour three on three meeting between Donald Trump, 41 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: Secretary Rubio, Steve Wikoff, two of Putin's advisors, and their translators. 42 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: There was a scheduled lunch which they eventually missed, and 43 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: they announced in a flurry of changes of press conference 44 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: at that press conference. It really isn't even fair to 45 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: call it a press conference, is more of a press announcement. 46 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: Lasted about twelve minutes. Putin actually spoke first, So Griffin, 47 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and take a listen to putin what 48 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: he had to say, specifically his framing of an agreement 49 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 1: that they had had the Trump later rejects, but the 50 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: contours of what the setting piece is for what follows 51 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: after the summit. Griffin, let's go ahead and take a listen. 52 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 3: Please. 53 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 5: I expect that today's agreements will be the starting point 54 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 5: not only for the solution of the Ukrainian issue, but 55 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 5: also will help us bring back business like and pragmatic 56 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 5: relations between Russia and the US. And in the end, 57 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 5: I would like to add one more thing. I'd like 58 00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 5: to remind you of twenty twenty two. During the last 59 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 5: contact with the previous administration, I tried to convince my 60 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 5: previous American colleague, we should not the situation should not 61 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 5: be brought to the point of no return when it 62 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 5: would come to hostilities. 63 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: So Professor, he initially framed things as an agreement, but 64 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 1: the real top line was that there was no ceasefire 65 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: that was announced, and it appears that he rejected the European, 66 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: Ukrainian and US position for an immediate ceasefire, just broadly. 67 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: Having watched Putin's full eight minute statement and everything, as 68 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: well as some of the positions that the United States 69 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: tried to force onto Putin in the head of this summit, 70 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 1: what's your reaction so far just to putin the way 71 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: that he handled himself there with Donald Trump, and what 72 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: does it tell us about the broader situation. 73 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 4: Well, I think that Putin obviously did a brilliant job 74 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 4: of handling himself in yes day's meeting. 75 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 3: There's just no question about that. 76 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 4: And that's really all he had to do was come 77 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 4: and look diplomatic, look smart, look respectful of President Trump, 78 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 4: and it would do a great deal to put an 79 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 4: end to his isolation in the West and give him 80 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 4: real legitimacy. And he came in and is I think 81 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 4: almost everybody expected. He did the job, and he was 82 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 4: very effective in that way. And then there's the whole 83 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 4: question of the ceasefire, which you raise just for the 84 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 4: audience's purposes or for clarification for the audience. It's important 85 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 4: to understand that there's a difference between a peace agreement 86 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 4: and a ceasefire. And really, what the Russians want is 87 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 4: not a cease fire, because they're winning on the battlefield. 88 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 4: What they want is a peace agreement. And what the 89 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 4: West wants and the Ukrainians want. 90 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 3: Is a ceasefire. 91 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 4: And Trump tried to convince Putin that what we need 92 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 4: here is a ceasefire. And what resulted is that Putin 93 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 4: said there will be no ceasefire. We have to have 94 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 4: a peace agreement. And in fact, Trump has now backed 95 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 4: off from demanding a ceasefire. And he said to someone 96 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 4: after the meeting that the best solution to this problem 97 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 4: is to go directly to a peace agreement, in other words, 98 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 4: putting the ceasefire that the Ukrainians and the Europeans and 99 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 4: many people in the United States want aside. He's saying 100 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 4: that's a non starter after having talked to Putin. So 101 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 4: I think, in terms of the clip that you just showed, 102 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 4: that's the most important subjective point. 103 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 6: And can you impact for people why Ukraine would be 104 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 6: reluctant to reach a peace agreement versus an immediate ceasefire, Like, 105 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 6: what is the advantage of one over the other to Ukraine. 106 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 4: Well, the advantages of a ceasefire are mainly that Ukraine 107 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 4: is losing on the battlefield and the West cannot do 108 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 4: much to help it at this point in time. So 109 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 4: if you can create a ceasefire, put an end to 110 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 4: the fighting on the battlefield, that gives the Ukrainians a 111 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 4: respite Number one and number two, it allows them to 112 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 4: get more arms from the West to build up their 113 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 4: forces and then put up a better fight against the 114 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 4: Russians moving forward once the fighting restarts, in other words, 115 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 4: once the ceasefire ends. But the Russians are not dumkoffs, 116 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 4: and they understand if they're winning it would be nuts, 117 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,240 Speaker 4: to put it bluntly, them to stop the war when 118 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 4: they're winning, allow the Ukrainians to recover and then fight 119 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 4: more effectively at some point down the road. So the 120 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 4: Russians have no interest in a ceasefire. Ukraine and the 121 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 4: West really like the idea. What the Russians want is 122 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 4: they want a peace agreement. They want to settle this one, 123 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 4: but they want to settle it on their terms. It's 124 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 4: very important to understand this. The Russians view Ukraine joining 125 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 4: NATO as an existential threat. This war for them is existential, 126 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 4: and they have a set of demands that they will 127 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 4: not compromise on near three principal demands. One is that 128 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 4: Ukraine and the West recognize that Russia has a next 129 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 4: those four oh blosts that they now partially occupy four 130 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 4: oh bloss in Ukraine plus Crimea. That's demand number one. 131 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 4: Number two is that Ukraine be a neutral state. That 132 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 4: means it can't be a NATO and there can't be 133 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 4: Western security guarantees, especially a security guarantee from the United States. Ukraine, 134 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 4: from the Russian perspective, has to be neutral. Third demand 135 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 4: is that Ukraine has to disarm, not completely, but disarmed 136 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 4: to the point where it has no offensive military capability, 137 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 4: i e. It can't threaten Russia. Now, these are three 138 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 4: harsh demands from the Ukrainian point of view and from 139 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 4: the West point of view, these are unacceptable demands to 140 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 4: the Ukrainians and to most people in the West, and 141 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 4: this is why you can't get a peace agreement. So 142 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 4: what we have here is the Russians want a peace agreement, 143 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 4: the Ukrainians in the West have no interest in a 144 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 4: peace agreement. The West and the Ukrainians want to cease fire, 145 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 4: and the ru Ussians have no interest in a ceasefire, 146 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 4: and the end result is you have a very short 147 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 4: meeting and you have no agreement. 148 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 6: Very well, said sir. 149 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and take a listen to Donald Trump, 150 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: because with that context, everything that he says begins to 151 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: make no sense. There's no deal until there's a deal. 152 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: I need to get on the phone with NATO and 153 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: with Ukraine, which has now happened, and we're going to 154 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: give everybody the results. But it's still actually really the 155 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: framework that I want people to go into with the 156 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: Trump press conference again, press announcement is, I have never 157 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: known this man not to take an extraordinary amount of questions. 158 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: Even in the Helsinki summit of twenty eighteen, it's three 159 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: minutes roughly that he speaks. It's clear that he is 160 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: incredibly muted, both emotionally, you know, after his meeting with Putin, 161 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: and I think what he's realizing in real time is 162 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 1: the mistake you know that he made in agreeing to 163 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: these European and Ukrainian quote red lines, going into the 164 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: summit itself and starting to understand the exact puzzle that 165 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: you just laid out. So with that guy, let's go 166 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: ahead and take a listen to Donald Trump and what 167 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: he had to say. 168 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 7: We've made some headway. So there's no deal. Until there's 169 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 7: a deal. I will call up NATO in a little while, 170 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 7: I will call up the various people that I think 171 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 7: are appropriate, and all of course call up Presidents Olynsky 172 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 7: and tell him about today's meeting. 173 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 3: It's ultimately up with them. They're going to have to 174 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 3: agree with what Marco. 175 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 7: And Steve and some of the great people from the 176 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 7: Trump administration who've come here, Scott and John right, thank 177 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 7: you very much. We have some of our really great leaders. 178 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 7: They've been doing a phenomenal job. We also have some 179 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 7: tremendous Russian business representatives here and I think you know, 180 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 7: everybody wants to deal with us. We've become the hottest 181 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 7: country anywhere in the world at a very short period 182 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 7: of time, and we look forward to that. We look 183 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 7: forward to dealing. We try and get this over with. 184 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 7: We really made some great progress today. I've always had 185 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 7: a fantastic relationship with President Putin. With Vladimir we had 186 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 7: many many tough meetings, good meetings. We were interfered with 187 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 7: by the Russia. Russia Russia host. 188 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: All right, Griffin, you can go ahead and come out 189 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: of this, because that's effectively everything that we do need 190 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: to know, which is he said there's no deal in 191 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: heres the deal I need to get on the phone 192 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: with the Ukrainians and the Europeans. And now, Professor, we 193 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: actually do have the result of that. Can we go 194 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: ahead and put Donald Trump's truth please up on the screen, 195 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: because this lays out exactly what you said, and I 196 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: can go ahead and read from it. It says a 197 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 1: great and very successful day in Alaska. The meeting with 198 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: President Putin went very well, as did a late night 199 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 1: phone call. But he says, quote, it was determined by 200 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: all that the best way to end the horrific war 201 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: between Russia and Ukraine is to go directly to a 202 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: peace agreement which would end the war and not a 203 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 1: mere ceasefire agreement often does not hold up. President Zelenski 204 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: will be coming to DC the Oval Office on Monday afternoon. 205 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: If it all works out, we will then schedule a 206 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: meeting with President Putin immediately. Sir, we also got Zelenski's 207 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: reaction and kind of the laying out of where I 208 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,839 Speaker 1: think things are going to trip up, So let's go 209 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: ahead and put that up there as well, because it's 210 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: very similar to the ceasefire demand that was made initially. 211 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: He says killings must stop as soon as possible. The 212 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: fire must cease both on the battlefield and in the sky, 213 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: as well as our poor infrastructure. All Ukrainian POWs and 214 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: civilians must be released. Pressure must be maintained with the 215 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: aggression and occupation. In my conversation with President Trump, I 216 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 1: said that sanctions could be strengthened if there's no trilateral 217 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: meeting with Russia. Sanctions are an effective tool, and then 218 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: security must be guaranteed reliably and in the long term 219 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: with the involvement of both the europe and the US. 220 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: All important to Ukraine must be discussed with Ukraine's participation. 221 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: So it appears, you know, given the context serve everything 222 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: that you've laid out here, that we see that Trump 223 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: is now dropping the initial ceasefire demand, which effectively, as 224 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: you said, wouldn't make a lot of battlefield sense for Russia. 225 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: But on the peace agreement terms, he's accepting this. European 226 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,359 Speaker 1: or at the very least, the European and the Ukrainians 227 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: are effectively demanding the same ceasefire that Putin just rejected, 228 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: as well as a laundry, list of other things that 229 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: are unacceptable to the Russian So how do you expect 230 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: then the Monday meeting to go with President Zelenski in 231 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: the Oval office. 232 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 4: Well, I think there's one very important dimension to what 233 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 4: Trump said that we don't want to lose sight of, 234 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 4: and that is I think he's passing the torch to Zelensky. 235 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 3: Yes, I think in. 236 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 4: A very important way, Trump has come to understand that 237 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 4: he can't settle this one right. There's no way he 238 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 4: can agree Trump to a peace agreement and convince the Ukranians, 239 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 4: the Europeans, and the Western foreign policy establishment that that's 240 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 4: the smart thing to do, right, And he can't convince 241 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 4: Putin to agree to a ceasefire. 242 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 3: So what can Trump do? 243 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 4: And of course what Zelensky says he should do is 244 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 4: put secondary sanctions on Russia. And we could talk about that, 245 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 4: because this meeting was in good part about secondary sanctions 246 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 4: and Trump's interest in secondary sanctions in the past. But 247 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 4: Trump understands, he was asked afterwards, what this means for 248 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 4: secondary sanctions. There's going to be no secondary sanctions at 249 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 4: least at this point, says Trump. So the sanctions are 250 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 4: off the table. The cease fire is off the table, 251 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 4: and Trump is basically agreed with Putin that you got 252 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 4: to go directly. He said this, you got to go 253 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 4: directly for a peace agreement. So Zelensky comes to the 254 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 4: White House. What does this mean. He's basically saying, I 255 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 4: that Zelenski and the Europeans can now sit down with 256 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 4: Putin and they can work this out. If they need me, 257 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 4: I'll be there, but it's up to them. I'm not 258 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 4: going to cut a deal and then try and force 259 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 4: it down the throats of the Ukrainians and the Europeans 260 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 4: because they don't want to go along with me. So 261 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 4: if you listen to the press conference, this is what 262 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 4: you were playing. He's said, it's ultimately up to them. 263 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 4: He said he's going to call NATO, He's going to 264 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 4: call the Ukrainians. But what happens is and these were 265 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 4: his words and the clip that you played it is 266 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 4: ultimately up to them. Very important words. Yes, And I 267 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 4: think Trump just understands he can't solve this one, and 268 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 4: he's correct, he can't. 269 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 3: Solve this one. 270 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 4: He might have been able to solve it if he 271 00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 4: had been strategically smart from the get go, but since 272 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 4: he talked, took office on January twentieth. Up to now, 273 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 4: he has behaved in a remarkably foolish and uninformed way 274 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 4: in terms of dealing with the Russians. What he finally 275 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 4: figured out yesterday after talking to Putin he should have 276 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 4: figured out before he moved into the White House on 277 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 4: January twentieth. The Russians have had one position on this 278 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 4: issue since at least last June fourteenth. Last June fourteenth, 279 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 4: this is June fourteenth, twenty twenty four. Right, Putin said 280 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 4: very clearly what the Russian demands were. They were consistent 281 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 4: with what he had said before June fourteenth. 282 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 3: Twenty twenty four. 283 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 4: And he has not changed those demands at all since 284 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 4: June fourteenth, twenty twenty four. So why didn't Trump and 285 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 4: company understand exactly what those demands were and work around 286 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 4: them starting on January twentieth. I don't know what the 287 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 4: answer is, but they didn't. So and the end result 288 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 4: is he finally figured it out yesterday. 289 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 6: And so from your perspective, it was the like the 290 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 6: Vladimir stop, we need to stop this on day one, 291 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 6: like that was all that was all a mistake, and 292 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 6: he needed to understand that he had to approach this 293 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 6: through the context of a broader peace agreement. Is that 294 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 6: is that what you would say was the mistake that I. 295 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 4: Think the fundamental mistake Ryan, is that the vast majority 296 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 4: of people in the foreign policy establishment refused to accept 297 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 4: the argument that the Russians see Ukraine in NATO. 298 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 3: As an existential threat. 299 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 4: It's an existential threat for Putin and the people around him, 300 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 4: and given it as an existential threat, they are willing 301 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 4: to fight a war, a major league war, to prevent 302 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 4: Ukraine from joining NATO or having security guarantee from the West. 303 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 4: We can't get it through earth thick skulls here in 304 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 4: the West that Russia views Ukraine and NATO as an 305 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 4: existential threat, and we continue to play this game where 306 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 4: we have continued to play this game up until yesterday, 307 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 4: where we thought that Ukraine could have security guarantees from 308 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 4: the West, or maybe it could even join NATO, that 309 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 4: Ukraine could get that territory back that it's lost. 310 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 3: And so forth and so on. 311 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 4: We've been delusional up to now. And I believe that 312 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 4: the Ukrainians and the Europeans, and huge chunks of the 313 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 4: national security establishment here in the United States will remain 314 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 4: delusional until the situation on the battlefield makes it impossible 315 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 4: to continue along that foolish path. 316 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 3: Right. 317 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: It's very tragic the result that you're laying out, but 318 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: it obviously, it is obviously the most likely. One of 319 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,360 Speaker 1: the things Sarah I want to talk about is the 320 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: last grasp of the maximal pressurists is these secondary sanctions, 321 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: because Russia is already the most sanctioned country in the 322 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: world by the United States, and as Putin pointed out 323 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: actually in his press conference, he's like, yeah, our GDP 324 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: is up by twenty percent, you know, like we're actually 325 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: doing fine. Trump has tried his hands roughly at some 326 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: sort of these secondary sanctions with India. But you know, 327 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: it's very interesting that the Indian government has not changed 328 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,359 Speaker 1: his position a single iota. And in fact, it was 329 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: a talking point of the Western security establishment that the 330 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,399 Speaker 1: secondary sanctions on India were the reason that Putin agreed 331 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: to this summit in the first place. There does not 332 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: seem to be hard evidence of that, given you know, 333 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: now necessarily how the result of the peace talks happened, 334 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,720 Speaker 1: and especially because they didn't change their position. But does 335 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: that factor into how you say that the West has 336 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: handled itself foolishly in believing that there's one more secret 337 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: trick they might be able to pull to change the 338 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: strategic calculus of the Russians. 339 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 4: Yes, I mean secondary sanctions are of enormous importance, and 340 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 4: I believe this meeting was all about secondary sanctions. Now 341 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 4: you're saying to yourself, what exactly does John mean? You 342 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 4: want to remember that Trump in the weeks before this 343 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 4: meeting was threatened name secondary sanctions on Russia, and what 344 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 4: that means is that you're effectively not going to sanction Russia, because, 345 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 4: as you pointed out, the Russians are so sanctioned at 346 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 4: this point that there are no more direct sanctions you 347 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 4: can put on the Russians that are meaningful. Secondary sanctions 348 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 4: mean that you're going to put sanctions on India and 349 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 4: China and a few other countries, but mainly India and 350 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 4: China if they continue to trade with Russia. In other words, 351 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 4: if they continue to import Russian oil, well, they're not 352 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 4: going to work. We cannot put secondary sanctions on the Chinese. 353 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 4: They have too much leverage over us because of rare 354 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 4: earths and magnets, and as you pointed out, the Indians 355 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 4: have made it clear that secondary sanctions are not going 356 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 4: to work with them, and if anything, it's going to 357 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 4: drive the Indians closer to the Russians. Just completely counterproductive. 358 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 4: So secondary sanctions don't work. So what happened here was 359 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 4: Trump got himself into a real pickle. He had promised 360 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 4: that he was going to put secondary sanctions on the 361 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 4: Russians by August eighth, So what does he do? A 362 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 4: few days before August eighth? He sends Steve whitcoff Off 363 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: to Moscow to talk with Putin about having a meeting 364 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 4: the beating that took place yesterday. So if you have 365 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 4: that meeting, then you don't have to put sanctions on 366 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 4: the Russians secondary sanctions, which are again effectively sanctions on 367 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 4: India and China. On August. What happens is Witkof goes 368 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 4: talks to Putin. Of course agrees to a meeting, because 369 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 4: a meeting is mona from heaven for Putin, for reasons 370 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 4: we talked about at the start of the show, right, 371 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 4: he agrees, and Witkoff comes back tells Trump. Trump announces 372 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 4: that they're going to have this meeting and he doesn't 373 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 4: have to put secondary sanctions on the Russians on August eighth, 374 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 4: he gets out of the pickle, and it's this meeting 375 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 4: yesterday that does the trick. So one could argue that 376 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 4: the meeting yesterday wasn't a way of victory for Trump 377 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 4: because he got away from that promise. And furthermore, as 378 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 4: we talked about before, it's very important to. 379 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 3: Understand that he was asked after the. 380 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 4: Meeting whether or not secondary sanctions would be put on 381 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 4: the Russians, and he basically said that ship has sailed. 382 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 4: So he has taken at least up to now. You 383 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 4: can never know for sure with Trump, but he has 384 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 4: at least for now solved that big problem that he had. Yeah, well, 385 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 4: just to say, guys, the fact is that we have 386 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 4: no cards to play. 387 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 3: Here, right. 388 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 6: He solved the problem, but as you pointed out, it 389 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 6: was a problem of his own making. 390 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 3: Solutely. 391 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 6: Since with Ukraine coming next week, I want to ask 392 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 6: you from Ukraine's perspective, and I'll put up I think 393 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 6: this is roughly a fairly recent sense of where where 394 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 6: the front lines are. You know, Ukraine, you know, still 395 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 6: has access to the to the Black Sea along these 396 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 6: if these lines were frozen from what I hear from Ukrainians, 397 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 6: they say, okay, what it's actually just going to give 398 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 6: Russia a chance to regroup and then they're going to 399 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 6: attack again and completely cut us off from the Black Sea, 400 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 6: and we will just be instead of a eighty percent 401 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 6: rump of a country, will be a forty percent rump 402 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 6: of a country, landlocked and just a dual client of 403 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 6: both Russia and the EU. So, if you're the Ukrainians, 404 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 6: what's your what are you fighting for here and what's 405 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 6: your best case scenario? 406 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,440 Speaker 4: Well, I have been arguing for a long time. I think, 407 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,160 Speaker 4: as you know, Ryan, that the best case from Ukraine's 408 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 4: point of view is to settle this war immediately, because, 409 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 4: as you point out, they're going to lose twenty percent 410 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 4: if they agree to give up those four ro Oho 411 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 4: blosts plus Crimea, about twenty two percent of pre two 412 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 4: thy fourteen Ukraine will be lost. Is this a tragedy 413 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 4: for Ukraine? Absolutely, there's no question about it. I fully 414 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 4: understand why no Ukrainian would want to agree to give 415 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 4: up twenty two percent of the territory of the country. However, 416 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,119 Speaker 4: the question you always have to ask yourself as a 417 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 4: good strategist is what is the alternative and the alternative 418 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 4: is to continue fighting, and as you pointed out, if 419 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 4: you continue fighting, you're likely to lose probably about half 420 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 4: the country. 421 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 3: You're likely to. 422 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 4: Lose Odessa and that would be catastrophic. You're likely to 423 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 4: lose Harkiev, You're likely to use a lose a handful 424 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 4: more o bloss as well, So you will end up 425 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:23,199 Speaker 4: in that scenario as a dysfunctional rump state. It seems 426 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 4: to me the least bad alternative, and I'm choosing words 427 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 4: carefully here, it's not a good alternative. It's the least 428 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 4: bad alternative is to cut a deal now and minimize. 429 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 3: How much territory you lose and. 430 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 4: Also minimize the number of Ukrainians who are going to 431 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 4: die if you continue to fight on. The other thing 432 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 4: is if you continue to fight on and you continue 433 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 4: to insist it you're going to be in NATO, and 434 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 4: you continue to insist you need security guarantees from the West, 435 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 4: and the West flirts with you about security guarantees. You 436 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 4: just give the Russians greater incentives to take more territory 437 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 4: and to make you a truly dysfunctional rub state. What 438 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 4: the Ukrainians should want to do, and I understand this 439 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 4: is hard to swallow. Is to survive as a rump state, 440 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 4: but not as a dysfunctional rum state, and try to 441 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 4: come up with some sort of modus vivendi with the 442 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 4: Russians so that the Russians don't feel threatened, so that 443 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 4: they're not bent on wrecking your country. This is the 444 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 4: best alternative for the Ukrainians at this point of time. 445 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 4: But getting that point through to Zelenskian company and to 446 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 4: the Europeans especially, but also to huge chunks of the 447 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 4: American national security establishment is almost impossible to do. It 448 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 4: really is, sir. 449 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: It's mystifying because it's like they live in an alternative 450 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: reality where this status quo is somehow good for Ukraine. 451 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: I mean, let's go ahead and put the battlefield reality 452 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: tear sheet please up there on the screen. Literally days before, 453 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: they made huge gains on the Ukrainian front line, one 454 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: of the biggest breakthroughs by the Russians so far. They 455 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: have a manpower advantage, obviously, you know the average age 456 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: of the Ukrainian military. We still, you know, it remains unclear. 457 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: And this is my main question is about inside of Ukraine. 458 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: Because Zelenski is wedded to this maximalist position, which again 459 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 1: we all emotionally understand. But the Ukrainian people, we recently 460 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: had a poll on our show that we showed had 461 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 1: some you know, a major support actually for some sort 462 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: of negotiation, but there's no elections, and in fact, you know, 463 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: he's been cracking down on domestic dissension from the beginning 464 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 1: of the war, on top of recently signing this you know, 465 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: anti corruption law, which drew massive protests to the streets. 466 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 1: So in that time, in this initial timeframe, it appears 467 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: that the most likely scenario is Zelenski will reject outright 468 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: some sort of meeting. Trump remains in his pickle about 469 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,400 Speaker 1: secondary sanctions, doesn't know what to do. The war will 470 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: continue fighting on, at the very least with European support. 471 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: Trump seems happy to send you know, weapons to the 472 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: Ukrainians as long as the Europeans buy them, and it'll 473 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: be like some sort of semi frozen conflict where the 474 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: frontline moves daily. Now, how long does Ukraine, the polity, 475 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: like the people left inside of Ukraine tolerate that situation, 476 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: as you said, as long as these thousands and thousands 477 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: of their you know, they're men, increasingly elder men begin 478 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: to keep dying on the battlefield. 479 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 4: It's very hard to answer that question. I mean, the 480 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 4: only sort of analogous case that I know is Germany 481 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 4: and World War One, and what happened is that the 482 00:28:53,960 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 4: Americans entered the war in April of nineteen seventeen. And 483 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 4: what happened was that by the spring of nineteen eighteen, 484 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 4: the Americans were beginning to come in in huge numbers, 485 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 4: and this meant that the balance of power on the 486 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 4: battlefield in terms of man power, was shifting against the Germans. 487 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 4: This is over the course of nineteen eighteen. At the 488 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 4: same time, what was happening in Germany is. 489 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 3: That support for the war on the home front. 490 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 4: Was collapsing, and it was because of the blockade that 491 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 4: the West had put on Germany and on Austria Hungary. 492 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 4: Those countries were starving. It was a total disaster. So 493 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 4: support for the war on the home front evaporated. At 494 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,719 Speaker 4: the same time, the coming of the Americans on the 495 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 4: battlefield shifted the balance of power in ways that made 496 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 4: it apparent that Germany was going to lose. And the 497 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 4: end result is that by October nineteen eighteen, Germany was through. 498 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 4: It was all over with and you got a peace agreement. 499 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 4: And you want to remember that the Allies never set 500 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 4: foot during the combat on German territory. Germany collapsed on 501 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 4: the home front. So just to go to Ukraine today, 502 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 4: if you look at what's happening on the battlefield, it's 503 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 4: very clear, and you were hinting at this that Ukraine 504 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 4: does not have enough manpower. They do not have enough infantry, 505 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 4: and infantry is of enormous importance for pairying those Russian offensives. 506 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 4: The Russians have a huge manpower advantage. Looks a lot 507 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 4: like World War One in nineteen eighteen. Is the Americans 508 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 4: come in, the balance of power on the ground is shifting. 509 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 4: And then if you look at what's happening on the 510 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 4: home front, is you just describe support for the war 511 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 4: is evaporating. Huge numbers of people have left or leave 512 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 4: the country. Public opinion has turned against the war. So 513 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 4: it does look like the situation is going to end 514 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 4: in disaster for Ukraine. It's hard to imagine this going 515 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 4: on for another year, given the balance of power and 516 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,239 Speaker 4: given public opinion at home. So all of this is 517 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 4: to say the Ukrainians are doomed. And by the way, 518 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 4: I think Trump and his advisors understand this, and they 519 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 4: are telling the Ukrainians and the Europeans, Okay, you want 520 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 4: to continue the fight, We'll give you the weaponry. As 521 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 4: you pointed out, We're going to continue to give the 522 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 4: Ukrainians the weapons, not directly, they're going to go through 523 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 4: the Europeans. The Europeans are going to pay for them. 524 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 4: But American weaponry will go to the Ukrainians. It won't 525 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 4: be enough. But the real problem here is manpower. And 526 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 4: so my view is that Ukraine is doomed, and Zelinski 527 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 4: will soon figure that out, and they'll have to reach 528 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 4: some sort of accommodation with the Russians, and you'll get 529 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 4: a frozen piece. 530 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 6: Do you have a sense of where this goes from here? Like, 531 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 6: how much of the World War One analogy can you 532 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 6: draw out? I mean, obviously, a post war Ukraine would 533 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 6: not have the kind of industrial capacity of a post war, 534 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 6: post World War One Germany. And so even if it 535 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 6: if it's far right did feel that it was quote 536 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 6: unquote stabbed in the back and forced into this bad agreement, 537 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 6: it wouldn't really have the capacity to create some monster 538 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 6: over the next thirty years. But what kind of knock 539 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 6: on effects could you expect from a piece of the 540 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 6: kind you're talking about. 541 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is a great question. I mean, you're absolutely right. 542 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 4: Germany was a monster, right. You went from nineteen fourteen 543 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 4: to nineteen eighteen fighting that monster and defeating it, and 544 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 4: involved the Russians, the French, the British, and then the 545 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 4: Americans took four countries to take the Germans down. And 546 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 4: the Germans key ally was Austria Hungary, which one could 547 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 4: argue was an albatross around the Germans neck. So Germany 548 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 4: was very powerful and when the war ended, the question 549 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 4: is what do you do with that monster? And of 550 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 4: course again we had World War II against that monster 551 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 4: starting in nineteen thirty nine, But this is a completely 552 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 4: different situation that regard. The smart thing for the Ukrainians 553 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 4: to do, as I said before, is, except the fact 554 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 4: that they've lost, right, try to settle it now and 555 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 4: then work out a modus vivendi with the Russians. Do 556 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 4: I think that's going to happen. 557 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 3: No. And the reason is not simply. 558 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 4: The Ukrainians, right, who will have powerful incentives to want 559 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 4: to get back that territory. It's also because the West, 560 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 4: and this includes the United States will not accept defeat, 561 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 4: and we will go to great lengths. We in the 562 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 4: West will go to great lengths to cause the Russians 563 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 4: trouble in those areas of Ukraine that they incorporate into Russia, 564 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 4: and the Ukrainians will do the same, and the Russians, 565 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 4: of course will retaliate. And furthermore, you have all sorts 566 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 4: of other potential flash points in Eastern Europe where trouble 567 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 4: could start. Belarus, the Baltic, Arctic, Moldova, the Black Sea, 568 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 4: and so forth, and so on. The potential flash points 569 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,839 Speaker 4: are numerous, right, And the end result is I think 570 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,919 Speaker 4: you're going to have poisonous relations between the Russians on 571 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 4: one side and the Ukrainians and the West on the 572 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 4: other side. For as far as the eye can sing. 573 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 4: You're not going to have that modus vivenda that I 574 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,239 Speaker 4: was talking about. And again I have to say, I 575 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 4: do not understand why people cannot come to grips with 576 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 4: the fact that's settling this war and creating decent relations 577 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 4: between Russia and Ukraine is in Ukraine's interest, right, It 578 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 4: just boggles my mind. 579 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 6: Is is it ultimately? Before is it ultimately because it's 580 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 6: not up up to Ukraine. Victoria Newland said, you know, 581 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 6: as I think Russia was launching its invasion. Okay, if 582 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 6: they succeed in going to Kiy, they can look forward to, 583 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 6: you know, decades of guerrilla war inside Ukraine. 584 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 3: Uh. 585 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,240 Speaker 6: And it wasn't as if this was a generous offer 586 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 6: to Ukraine. This was a we are going to see 587 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 6: this goerrilla war, whether Ukraine likes it or not. So 588 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 6: maybe it's just as simple as if it was up 589 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 6: to Ukraine, they would make a more strategic choice. 590 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 3: But it's not. 591 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 4: Well, you want to remember Ryan that immediately after the 592 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 4: war started, Putin put out peace fielers to the Ukrainians 593 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 4: to come to sort of come to some sort of 594 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:59,320 Speaker 4: peace agreement so that they could end the war. 595 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 3: Then remember the. 596 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 4: War starts in February twenty twenty two, and they're negotiating. 597 00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 4: This is the Ukrainians and the Russians. They're negotiating to 598 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 4: end the war almost immediately after it starts, the famous 599 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 4: Istanbul negotiations. And they don't reach an agreement, but they're 600 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 4: making major league progress towards reaching an agreement. And what 601 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 4: happens is that the Americans and the British in the 602 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 4: form of Boris Johnson come in and tell the Ukrainians 603 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 4: to walk away from the negotiations and to continue the war. 604 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 4: So this supports your basic point that we have been 605 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 4: more enthusiastic about this war at different points than the 606 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 4: Ukrainians have, and I think a lot of that has 607 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 4: to do with the fact and I think this reflects 608 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 4: Victorian Newlands thinking that we don't have to do the fighting, 609 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 4: we don't do the dying, and we can use the 610 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,839 Speaker 4: Ukrainians for that purpose. We can use the Ukrainians to 611 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 4: bleed the Russians white. The Russians are now a great 612 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 4: Russia is now a great power. This is a problem 613 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 4: for us in their mind, and we have to weaken Russia, 614 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 4: and Ukraine is the perfect opportunity to do that. 615 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: My last question for you, sir, concerns grant strategy. I've 616 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: been inspired by your work, you know, intellectually and more. 617 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: I cannot you know in this moment, I'm just shocked 618 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: at especially with a lot of the people in the 619 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: Trump administration. I know them personally. I know you do 620 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 1: as well. And we heard for years about the folly 621 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: of being obsessed with the Middle East of American security doctrine, 622 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: just having this religious devotion you know, to NATO, to Europe, 623 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: to the Middle East, and as I watch, you know, 624 00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: are the consumption of US weaponry, of US attention and 625 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: diplomacy on Israel. Uh uh, you know, an obsession really 626 00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: with Israel. And then also similar session here with Ukraine, 627 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: and then even you know, determining our relationship with India 628 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:56,880 Speaker 1: and with China on the basis of Ukraine. It just 629 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,280 Speaker 1: seems so counter to any grand strategics of the United 630 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: States and of our Asia, which will compromise on fifty 631 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: percent GDP, you know, in the next couple of years. 632 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: So just at a very you know, fifty thousand foot level, 633 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: does this just confirm really that not only will we 634 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,319 Speaker 1: have the twenty twenties be a Chinese decade, but of 635 00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,440 Speaker 1: one where you know, the US really is just choosing 636 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: the last bastions of this Cold War and nineteen nineties 637 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 1: you know, mentality, and when we had the opportunity, which 638 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: it seems to be right now, we just decided not 639 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: to take it. 640 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's an accurate description of what's happened here. 641 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 4: I mean, the Trump administration and the Biden administration both 642 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,760 Speaker 4: argued that the principal contingency the United States should concern 643 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 4: itself with is a war against China and East Asia, 644 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 4: and that their principal goal should be to contain China 645 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 4: in East Asia. That was the consensus opinion inside both administrations. 646 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,760 Speaker 4: But what's happened is that we can't get out of Ukraine. 647 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:09,160 Speaker 4: We're pinned down from Ukraine. And the situation in the 648 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 4: Middle East is even worse if you look at what 649 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 4: happened in the war that we picked with the Houthis. 650 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 4: Remember Trump said We're going to go out and beat 651 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,879 Speaker 4: the Houthis, and after about a month, Trump said, We're 652 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 4: quitting this war. Those Houthis are mighty formidable. But of 653 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 4: course the real reason that we quit the war is 654 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 4: that we were running through our inventories of weapons at 655 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 4: record pace, and our inventories are not very deep. 656 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:40,799 Speaker 3: And then we get in. 657 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 4: The wars that Israel, get involved in the wars that 658 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,720 Speaker 4: Israel's fighting, especially their war with Iran, and there again 659 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 4: we're using up all sorts for American weaponry, and we're 660 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 4: pinned down in the Middle East. Right, the Biden administration 661 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,640 Speaker 4: at least had the good sense not to get sucked 662 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 4: into a war with Iran. The Israelis, of course, we're 663 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 4: trying to suck us into a war with Iran in 664 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,960 Speaker 4: twenty twenty four, but the Biden administration, which did a 665 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 4: few smart things strategically at least in this case, avoided 666 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,240 Speaker 4: a war in Iran. But Trump foolishly on June twenty 667 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,280 Speaker 4: second of this year, decided to go to war against Iran. 668 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 4: So we're stuck in that situation now, and the question 669 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,239 Speaker 4: is how do we get out? So I think from 670 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,240 Speaker 4: a strategic point of view, what's going on with regard 671 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 4: to Ukraine and what is going on with regard to 672 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 4: the Middle East as disastrous. And then there's the moral dimension. 673 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 3: We don't want to. 674 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 4: Lose sight of the fact that the United States is 675 00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 4: complicit in a genocide in the Middle East, that what 676 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 4: is happening in Gods is a genocide. And for those 677 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 4: people who don't want to call it a genocide, I 678 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,319 Speaker 4: would think you would least have to acknowledge that this 679 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,240 Speaker 4: is mass murder on a scale that we haven't seen 680 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 4: in a long time, and certainly it's mass murder on 681 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,839 Speaker 4: the scale we would never accept or should never accept 682 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 4: from a close ally. But nevertheless, here we are supporting 683 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 4: Israel hook line and sinker as it executes a genocide. 684 00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,040 Speaker 4: So from both a strategic point of view and a 685 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 4: moral point of view, when you look at the behavior 686 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 4: of the Biden administration and now the Trump administration, it 687 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 4: leaves me at least with a sick feeling in my stomach. 688 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more, sir. It's always just 689 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 1: such an honor to talk to you, So thank you 690 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,959 Speaker 1: so much for joining us and giving us your time 691 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: to break down this summit. 692 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 4: Thank you very much to the two of you for 693 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,919 Speaker 4: having me on, asking excellent questions and letting me give 694 00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,240 Speaker 4: these lengthy answers. 695 00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: Well, that's what you always have a platform here to do, 696 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: so so we look forward to seeing you. 697 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:53,840 Speaker 4: Again next time. 698 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: Likewise, all right, we're going to go to the second 699 00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: half of our show now, which is available to premium subscribers. 700 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoyed that. And if you want 701 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: to be able to watch things like that as well 702 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:05,920 Speaker 1: as Ama on our Friday shows Breakingpoints dot com, you 703 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 1: can become one today. 704 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 6: Let's get to it.