1
00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:11,760
Speaker 1: Tonight we're gonna be talking about Karen Reid. Those of

2
00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,000
Speaker 1: you that may not know what I'm talking about. January

3
00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, twenty twenty, Karen Reid and her boyfriend John

4
00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:21,120
Speaker 1: o'keef go out with a group of friends to the

5
00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:26,040
Speaker 1: Waterfall Bar. Later that evening, Karen drops John off at

6
00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,760
Speaker 1: a Canton home of a Boston police officer, Brian Albert.

7
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:36,080
Speaker 1: John doesn't return home. Reid gets panicked. She calls two friends.

8
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 1: They go looking for him. Eventually, at six o'clock in

9
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,040
Speaker 1: the morning on January twenty night, they found him dead

10
00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,360
Speaker 1: in a snowbank out in front of his friend's house.

11
00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:50,519
Speaker 1: How did John o'keef die? Who has lied about it,

12
00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:56,320
Speaker 1: who's misrepresented, who's covered up? Or who just can't plane? Remember,

13
00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,240
Speaker 1: police officers are witnesses. There are other witnesses and bystanders

14
00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,680
Speaker 1: and people that are accused. It is difficult for me

15
00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,520
Speaker 1: to know who the bad guy is. Y'all. This is

16
00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,800
Speaker 1: one of the craziest trials I have ever seen in

17
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,640
Speaker 1: my life. They've got a thing called a buffer zone,

18
00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,320
Speaker 1: and we'll get back to that. Something I've never heard of.

19
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:20,800
Speaker 1: But y'all, we got two of the best in the

20
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 1: business with us tonight to help Judge Ashley Wilcock nationally

21
00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:35,160
Speaker 1: recognize child welfare expert. A former juvenile court judge. Over

22
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,600
Speaker 1: twenty years experience as a trial attorney and legal analyst,

23
00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:46,080
Speaker 1: she has devoted her life around fighting for children, not

24
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:48,560
Speaker 1: just children that are at risk and in the system,

25
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,000
Speaker 1: but all children. She's a graduate of Emory University. She's

26
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,800
Speaker 1: the former executive director of Fulton County CASSA. She had

27
00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,920
Speaker 1: her own law practice. She has served as a specialist

28
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 1: Asistant Attorney General for defects with two counties. She was

29
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: at a cab County juvenile Court judge. She was also

30
00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:12,960
Speaker 1: selected by Governor Nathan Dial as the director for the

31
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,360
Speaker 1: State of Georgia Child Advocate, which was a three year appointment.

32
00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,240
Speaker 1: And y'all know her and love her on Court TV.

33
00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,720
Speaker 1: And a side note, she's part of my ZWN seven.

34
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 1: We've worked tons of cases together. Ashley has never not

35
00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,440
Speaker 1: picked up the phone for me. She has never not

36
00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,600
Speaker 1: responded when I needed her to meet me somewhere, help

37
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,160
Speaker 1: me do something and overall make a case investigation better.

38
00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:43,520
Speaker 1: So I'll just tell you that right quick. Next. He's

39
00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:49,600
Speaker 1: a favorite, and y'all love him Joshua Schiffer, defense attorney extraordinary.

40
00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,640
Speaker 1: He is a graduate of Georgia State University Law School.

41
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,680
Speaker 1: He will say without honors, but good memories. But I'm

42
00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,959
Speaker 1: going to tell you he set mock trial and moot

43
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,240
Speaker 1: court on fire. He was a spirrior court clerk in

44
00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,079
Speaker 1: Cobb County. Then he became a public defender. I mean,

45
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,560
Speaker 1: you want to talk about somebody that works harder than

46
00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 1: anybody else and sees a system broken and people in need,

47
00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:17,480
Speaker 1: it's a public defender. He then went on to graduate

48
00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,639
Speaker 1: from the Jerry Spence Trial Lawyers College in Wyoming. Then

49
00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,239
Speaker 1: he also hung up his own shield. He has represented

50
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,440
Speaker 1: thousands of clients over twenty years. So right now, tonight,

51
00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,160
Speaker 1: this is a really easy case. It shouldn't take either

52
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,200
Speaker 1: one of them more than about ten minutes to explain

53
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 1: tail lights, dog bites, fighting, domestic violence, men kissing, men fighting, searching.

54
00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,760
Speaker 1: I mean it's not hard. I mean, it's really a

55
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,880
Speaker 1: simple case. So tonight on Zone seven, I would like

56
00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:49,880
Speaker 1: to welcome Judge Ashley and Joshua Schiffer.

57
00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,680
Speaker 2: Thank you Mac, thank you Mack. Happy to be here.

58
00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 3: We may need more than one hour, because this case

59
00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,000
Speaker 3: there might be more than our talk about.

60
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,160
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I mean seriously, where do you even start?

61
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,320
Speaker 3: When have they started prosecuting the defendant? I keep looking

62
00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,080
Speaker 3: around and going, all right, who's really on trial? I

63
00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,400
Speaker 3: think you put that on Twitter show who's actually on trial?

64
00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:16,719
Speaker 3: In this case? Right now?

65
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:22,719
Speaker 1: Everybody's on trial. It is the most incredible shift of

66
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:25,640
Speaker 1: a prosecution and a defense that I've ever seen, that

67
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,839
Speaker 1: every single person is being made out to be a liar, canaver,

68
00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,080
Speaker 1: a conspirator. I mean, this thing is out of control.

69
00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,760
Speaker 2: Well you know what, I think that because of what

70
00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:42,600
Speaker 2: you just said, that everybody's being accused. This prosecution is

71
00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,240
Speaker 2: not just attempting to prosecute the crime, but they are

72
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 2: also trying to proactively prepare for a defense of cover up.

73
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,480
Speaker 2: The people inside the house killed the victim, John O'Keeffe.

74
00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:56,560
Speaker 3: Not the defendant.

75
00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,599
Speaker 2: That they're putting everything up front to try to say.

76
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,480
Speaker 2: And when the defense says it was a cover up,

77
00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,039
Speaker 2: see we told you it wasn't. And Josh, I just

78
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,240
Speaker 2: that's a little bit different than a lot of prosecutions.

79
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,360
Speaker 3: And it's because the defense telegraphed it like this isn't.

80
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,960
Speaker 3: There wasn't a question what the defense was gonna be.

81
00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,640
Speaker 3: And you know, part of what makes this case so

82
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,320
Speaker 3: special is I've seen a lot of community engagement in cases.

83
00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,800
Speaker 3: You know, I've worked civil rights cases. We've seen the

84
00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,000
Speaker 3: community really get engaged with criminal job, but like this,

85
00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,760
Speaker 3: never anything like it. We literally have crowds of people

86
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,359
Speaker 3: cheering on someone who is on trial. Never seen anything

87
00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:41,600
Speaker 3: like that. Then you've got the intersection of citizens and

88
00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:47,360
Speaker 3: citizen journalism and agitation that's brought a whole another crew

89
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,200
Speaker 3: of local and national followers who all have some of

90
00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,039
Speaker 3: these strongest opinions about a case that could not be

91
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,960
Speaker 3: more further apart. And all Ashley and I hear from

92
00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,800
Speaker 3: the universe is, you know, on one far side, this

93
00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,000
Speaker 3: is an absolute murder from Karen Reid. She's a vicious

94
00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,360
Speaker 3: killer who ran her boyfriend over because she hated him,

95
00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,720
Speaker 3: and it was absolutely Then on the other side, you've

96
00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,880
Speaker 3: got people literally advocating for the position that the Albert

97
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,520
Speaker 3: family had secret mechanisms and plots and plans in place

98
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,160
Speaker 3: to kill a pullet Are you kidding me? And everything

99
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:22,679
Speaker 3: in between.

100
00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,279
Speaker 2: That's because something shady was going on in that house.

101
00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,239
Speaker 2: Whether it was murder or not, that jury has to decide.

102
00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:33,920
Speaker 2: But I think the reason, and gosh, Mac, I've been

103
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:37,360
Speaker 2: dying to talk to you about this because of the evidence.

104
00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 2: Things like their basement floor was removed after this incident.

105
00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,239
Speaker 2: They got rid of their dog. They re homed their dog,

106
00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,280
Speaker 2: the same dog that the defense says, we think it

107
00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,960
Speaker 2: was that dog that bit and or scratched the dead victim.

108
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,800
Speaker 2: They got rid of things on their telephone, so I

109
00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,640
Speaker 2: think and got again back. I've been dying to talk

110
00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:04,840
Speaker 2: to you about this case because I think that means something.

111
00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,960
Speaker 2: They're hiding something in that house.

112
00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,400
Speaker 1: Well, let's just say the bottom line. If they weren't,

113
00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:17,640
Speaker 1: why would they make themselves look so bad. They're cops,

114
00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:22,640
Speaker 1: and let's be clear, this is not one police officer.

115
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:28,200
Speaker 1: This is multiple police officers that are generationally tied to

116
00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,400
Speaker 1: law enforcement. They know better, they know how this is

117
00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,760
Speaker 1: going to look. So not only did you delete phone

118
00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:41,720
Speaker 1: calls during the most critical time period, you deleted a search,

119
00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 1: a Google search that, if nothing else, would force somebody

120
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,320
Speaker 1: to look at you. She googled how long does it

121
00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,080
Speaker 1: take a body to freeze in the snow, And she

122
00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,960
Speaker 1: did that prior to John o'keef being found. Dependent on

123
00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,880
Speaker 1: who you talk to, Lord here comes the defense attorney.

124
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:09,800
Speaker 3: You know, come on, I'm gonna throw some science words

125
00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,320
Speaker 3: at you that you haven't heard since ninth grade, and

126
00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,280
Speaker 3: I'm gonna talk about radio frequency abellete that done. Next thing.

127
00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,560
Speaker 3: You know, I can't tell you when these searches are

128
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:21,960
Speaker 3: made because computers. Literally it's like a Saturnay Live skit

129
00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:22,600
Speaker 3: where they're like.

130
00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,480
Speaker 1: No, it's crazy, computer, it's crazy. And let me tell

131
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,520
Speaker 1: you talking about evidence. I thought the very first witness

132
00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,480
Speaker 1: was going to get up there and say we saw

133
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:36,120
Speaker 1: the broken you know, tail light. There was red glass

134
00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,000
Speaker 1: on the ground indicative of a tail light. No, the

135
00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,680
Speaker 1: first person was like, no, it wasn't even broken.

136
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:42,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

137
00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,920
Speaker 2: And the only reason some are now saying it was

138
00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,720
Speaker 2: broken was because they say they were with Karen Reid.

139
00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,600
Speaker 2: They go to the house and she says, see, look, look,

140
00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,360
Speaker 2: see my tail light's broken. Not an obvious it's broken.

141
00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,679
Speaker 2: And hear all the pieces because you know that defense

142
00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,280
Speaker 2: says it was broken. Tail light pieces were planted. They

143
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,760
Speaker 2: were found with the snowblower later.

144
00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,360
Speaker 3: The fact of the matter is anybody that's ever unfortunately

145
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,080
Speaker 3: seen an animal hit by a vehicle or something like

146
00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,280
Speaker 3: that will tell you the damage is shocking. So the

147
00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,880
Speaker 3: idea that this two and twenty pound big Burley cop

148
00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:26,079
Speaker 3: was killed by a rearward moving vehicle and the only

149
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 3: physical evidence is a crack broken tip that's just hard

150
00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,520
Speaker 3: to swallow. And then when they parked it out front

151
00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 3: of thirty four fair View that that vehicle looks mint

152
00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,040
Speaker 3: except that the tail light's missing.

153
00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,160
Speaker 2: That's what they're going to have to show, right, I'm

154
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 2: waiting on the expert. I am rating on the reenactment

155
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,520
Speaker 2: by an accident expert to say this is what happened,

156
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,840
Speaker 2: and this is why. Maybe the tail light wasn't too broken,

157
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,480
Speaker 2: maybe the car wasn't dented, but this is how she

158
00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,040
Speaker 2: could have done it in her car, Because without that,

159
00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,880
Speaker 2: I'm hard pressed to believe the prosecution.

160
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 3: And even then, it still doesn't make sense with the

161
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,800
Speaker 3: rest of the physical evidence. With this, you know, the

162
00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,200
Speaker 3: post mortem investigation and the scratches and whether that could

163
00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,199
Speaker 3: be from an animal, or whether that could be from

164
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,319
Speaker 3: a fall, or whether it could come from a vehicle contact.

165
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,840
Speaker 3: And I'll say, there's lots of unexplained injuries that happened

166
00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 3: in a violent and tumultuous event. There are always are

167
00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,880
Speaker 3: going to be some unexplained bruises, scratches, lacerations, all that.

168
00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,679
Speaker 3: But the problem in the read and for mister Rokesba,

169
00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,760
Speaker 3: those scratches are really substantial. And then you've got the

170
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,319
Speaker 3: fact of how they filtered out into the universe. They

171
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,120
Speaker 3: were just shared along with the rest of the evidence,

172
00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:44,440
Speaker 3: or not evidence. In this case, the public has a

173
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:46,680
Speaker 3: library of stuff they've been picking apart.

174
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,840
Speaker 1: Let's just take the dog bite. It doesn't look like

175
00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,480
Speaker 1: a dog bite. They didn't have DNA from a K nine.

176
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,520
Speaker 1: But yet when you look at it reset, if you

177
00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,520
Speaker 1: look at the arm, the first two lines are not

178
00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,360
Speaker 1: the same as the next injury. They don't correlate in

179
00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,400
Speaker 1: size or width or linked. It doesn't match. And for

180
00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,560
Speaker 1: a dog bite, again, it looks like a dog that

181
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,000
Speaker 1: didn't have a lower jawl. First of all, it also

182
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,480
Speaker 1: looks like in some cases the dog only had one tooth.

183
00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:22,520
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't fit.

184
00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 2: But could it have been Frankenstein?

185
00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:27,280
Speaker 3: Do you know?

186
00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,600
Speaker 2: Frankenstein was what they called the snowplow. And I would

187
00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,440
Speaker 2: suggest if you look at those marks you just described,

188
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:39,240
Speaker 2: I could see the mechanics or a piece of wire

189
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,400
Speaker 2: sticking out or a piece of metal causing those.

190
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,400
Speaker 3: You see that's my thought is this is winter, and

191
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,760
Speaker 3: I know there's a lot of talk about puffy jacketson

192
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,480
Speaker 3: who was wearing what to whom, But when you've got

193
00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:55,000
Speaker 3: something that's a really violent contact with a body, you

194
00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:59,480
Speaker 3: can get exactly that kind of unforeseen scratch or mark,

195
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,600
Speaker 3: especially on light colored flesh, and and you you could

196
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,400
Speaker 3: and you know, I've gotten a chance to really look

197
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,040
Speaker 3: at the pictures up close, but I think that a

198
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:09,920
Speaker 3: jury's going to spend a lot of time with that

199
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,079
Speaker 3: because it's a huge question. And I guess what I'm

200
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,960
Speaker 3: really getting back at is the one person I feel

201
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,960
Speaker 3: the worst off at all, and this has been a

202
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,560
Speaker 3: long time coming, is DA Lalli in this case, because

203
00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,560
Speaker 3: I feel this is a DA that got handed a

204
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,680
Speaker 3: giant steamer that has exposures for other people that he's

205
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,360
Speaker 3: expected to work with, and he's expected to do his

206
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,680
Speaker 3: job as local prosecutor that he's not necessarily comfortable doing.

207
00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,199
Speaker 3: Because this investigation, I don't care where you trained to

208
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 3: be a police officer, This investigation is grace.

209
00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,160
Speaker 2: It's terrible. They didn't do any of the things they

210
00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,800
Speaker 2: should have done. And what about ring video from all

211
00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,600
Speaker 2: the other homes, interviewing all the neighbors the night of

212
00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:52,440
Speaker 2: Matt they didn't do any of that.

213
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 1: Well, it gets worse to me, and we haven't gotten

214
00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,760
Speaker 1: to the real center of what I think is going

215
00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:02,360
Speaker 1: to be an explosion, and that is Troop or Procter.

216
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,000
Speaker 1: I think the wheels are going to come off when

217
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:08,360
Speaker 1: he gets on the stand, because anything that the jury

218
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,760
Speaker 1: is going to question when did the glass from the

219
00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,760
Speaker 1: tail light come out and break apart? Was it once

220
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,560
Speaker 1: the police got involved, or was it when mister o'keef

221
00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,960
Speaker 1: was hit. They don't know. They don't know now because

222
00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,800
Speaker 1: they've heard both. And then the dog bite. They don't know.

223
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,439
Speaker 1: They've heard both, and they're going to have one expert,

224
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure after the other explain what we're looking at.

225
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,199
Speaker 1: Was there a fight? Are there some busted knuckles in

226
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,080
Speaker 1: some pictures? Are their video of somebody saying pull up?

227
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,160
Speaker 1: None of that looks good. So again, every single time

228
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,800
Speaker 1: I start to go right, I am forced to go left.

229
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,360
Speaker 2: All those things indicate a fight, right, the bruce knuckles,

230
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,319
Speaker 2: he had two black eyes. But at the end of

231
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,200
Speaker 2: the day, here's the problem I have with that defense theory.

232
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,760
Speaker 2: It is the words the defendant, Josh, you could make

233
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:07,320
Speaker 2: millions by convincing defendants to shut their pie hole, because

234
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,400
Speaker 2: again she kept saying, Oh.

235
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,200
Speaker 3: Could I have hit him? I hope I didn't hit him.

236
00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,240
Speaker 2: Who has that thought unless you think I was so

237
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,680
Speaker 2: drunk I may have hit him. She would only think

238
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:19,560
Speaker 2: it if there's some reason for that.

239
00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,240
Speaker 3: But at the same time, and I know people are

240
00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:25,040
Speaker 3: just fixated on some of her language. When I've got

241
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,200
Speaker 3: an immovable fact language like that, you got to lean

242
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,280
Speaker 3: into it and you got to accept it for what

243
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,920
Speaker 3: it is, And that to me can be turned around

244
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:37,080
Speaker 3: into the authenticity of she didn't know what was going on,

245
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,120
Speaker 3: and that's because of the fight on the inside and

246
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,720
Speaker 3: the alleged setup, because you can really unpeel that onion

247
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,120
Speaker 3: from what the Mcalberts may or may not have been

248
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,960
Speaker 3: angling at really deeply, and some people have it's downright

249
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,360
Speaker 3: libelists and slanderers. It really is fascinating to me thinking

250
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,920
Speaker 3: about when Procter comes up, because outside the physical evidence,

251
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,880
Speaker 3: this is the person charge of the investigation. Do you

252
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 3: know they're going to pin them down on all the

253
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 3: good standard cop stuff about how'd you become a cop?

254
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,880
Speaker 3: Let's talk about your great training, you do your job

255
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,480
Speaker 3: really well, and let's talk about what you didn't do.

256
00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:13,720
Speaker 3: That's all fine and good and going to be strong.

257
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,480
Speaker 3: I'm interested for them to get into the personal relationships.

258
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,640
Speaker 3: Every one of these witnesses has been evasive and or

259
00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,800
Speaker 3: just outright live about how well they do or do

260
00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,560
Speaker 3: not know the other people involved. And if there's one

261
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:33,440
Speaker 3: thing I do know about, you know, suburban Massa, Chusetts.

262
00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 3: These town people, they know each other. These people have

263
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,600
Speaker 3: lived there for generations. They all know each other. The

264
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 3: idea that these individuals had distance, that's a big problem

265
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 3: for the state. And I think that the defense is

266
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 3: really going to hammer proper on and.

267
00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,880
Speaker 2: I think that they really the state leaned into that

268
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,960
Speaker 2: in a bad way. Here's what I mean. The longer

269
00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:58,640
Speaker 2: I watch this trial, yeah, Court TV. I'm watching the

270
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 2: trial all day long, these witnesses for this state, to

271
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 2: me are not just prepared, they're too prepared. I feel

272
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,480
Speaker 2: like they've rehearsed this to an extent that they give

273
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,240
Speaker 2: these perfect answers for this state. They don't have to say, wait,

274
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 2: I lost my train. I thought, wait a minute, what

275
00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 2: was I saying?

276
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,080
Speaker 3: Wait, I'll ask that again.

277
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 2: They don't do any of that. And then the defense

278
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,480
Speaker 2: starts asking, I don't know, I don't recall, I don't know,

279
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,200
Speaker 2: and I tell you guys, to me, it's over prepared.

280
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 2: It just doesn't seem sincere, y'all.

281
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 1: There's a couple of things that have jumped out at me. One,

282
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,360
Speaker 1: I'm not going to make up a time. I don't

283
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,080
Speaker 1: remember the time. I don't know the time. I'm not

284
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,200
Speaker 1: going to make up a time. But he's wearing a

285
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,520
Speaker 1: watch big as Dallas. And you're a police officer, you're

286
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,800
Speaker 1: always aware of where you are, what time it is,

287
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,280
Speaker 1: what somebody's wearing, the tag number next to you. Here's

288
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,760
Speaker 1: the other thing that I loved. He has to use

289
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 1: his camera light to read from the witness stand, but

290
00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,480
Speaker 1: he can see a freaking tire track and an inch

291
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,879
Speaker 1: of snow from a second story fifty feet away. And

292
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,240
Speaker 1: Judge Ashley, this is how I see it. When I

293
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 1: heard the first couple of witnesses and then we really

294
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,360
Speaker 1: got into it, I kept thinking, is this the prosecution?

295
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:21,080
Speaker 1: Have they started in reverse order? Because nobody sounded like

296
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:25,440
Speaker 1: the prosecution had gotten them ready for trial. It sounded

297
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,119
Speaker 1: like they got each other ready.

298
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. That's how it came there

299
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:36,119
Speaker 2: is our expert cold case investigator. Because that is a

300
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,440
Speaker 2: detail that you are right. But here's the other detail.

301
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 2: Since we're talking about how things come off, what about

302
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 2: a cop who lives in a house and there's a

303
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 2: dead body in the yard of one of your colleague's friends,

304
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,800
Speaker 2: people at the house, and you testify, Oh, no, I

305
00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:56,960
Speaker 2: didn't go out there. I didn't want to interfere. Well,

306
00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:59,359
Speaker 2: every cop I know would have gone running out there

307
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:00,480
Speaker 2: and present.

308
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 3: I hope that. So normally, when we're picking juries as

309
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,159
Speaker 3: a defense attorney, we don't necessarily want a lot of

310
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 3: people with law enforcement relatives on the jury. This case,

311
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,440
Speaker 3: you want some people related to cops because they're gonna

312
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,879
Speaker 3: be like, there's no way if your uncle, sister, cop,

313
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,480
Speaker 3: cousin is a cop. You've known how they live their life.

314
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,440
Speaker 3: You know that no officer lives their life the way

315
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,480
Speaker 3: that these witnesses have testified. And it's that over preparation

316
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 3: that robs the spontaneity and authenticity that makes them at

317
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:36,160
Speaker 3: all believable and uniforman. No one has said, oh, they

318
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,560
Speaker 3: did a great job testified, I totally no, are you

319
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:39,080
Speaker 3: kidding me?

320
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,160
Speaker 1: Everybody is saying they're not believable. And again for the jury,

321
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:48,480
Speaker 1: you're offering reasonable doubt coming and going six days to Wednesday.

322
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:50,880
Speaker 1: And here's the other thing. If you're a police officer,

323
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,919
Speaker 1: even if your neighbor has a bunch of cop cars

324
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,120
Speaker 1: pulling up, you're out there. Yeah, much less if it's

325
00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,119
Speaker 1: your own freaking yard and your friend.

326
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,679
Speaker 3: Your retives, your friends, your buddies. Are you kidding me?

327
00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,920
Speaker 1: But I can back it up further than that. If

328
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,040
Speaker 1: I get into legal trouble and Josh, I don't call you,

329
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 1: and Judge Ashley, I don't call you, and I don't

330
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 1: call NAT's Grace, and I don't call all these other

331
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 1: stellar attorneys we know. I call my friend that's a bartender.

332
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,359
Speaker 1: Y'all need to question that. That's who I went and

333
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 1: got legal advice from good point. This woman with her

334
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:36,680
Speaker 1: fiance live in Lover whatever missing she calls not his partner,

335
00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,000
Speaker 1: not nine one one, not the man at the house

336
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 1: who's a police officer, but two women. So to me,

337
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,760
Speaker 1: this was wrong from the very moment. I can't help

338
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,680
Speaker 1: but look at Karen Reid, Why in the world would

339
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:50,600
Speaker 1: you do those things?

340
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 3: That's weird.

341
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 1: But then on the other hand, Josh, like you said,

342
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,159
Speaker 1: old boy, don't come out of the house.

343
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,199
Speaker 3: Your first reaction is authentic. So that's why when your

344
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,000
Speaker 3: immediate response is so different from what anybody else would do,

345
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,360
Speaker 3: you've got a question. You've got to scrutinize. Why did

346
00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 3: they make that decision then when no one else would

347
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 3: make that decision.

348
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: Now, I think you also have to think about the

349
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 2: opposite of excited utterance. What about when a witness comes

350
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 2: forward a week later and says, oh, I forgot to

351
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,560
Speaker 2: tell you this, and you know exactly both of you

352
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 2: know what I'm thinking of, and that is McCabe. Jen

353
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:36,800
Speaker 2: McCabe says.

354
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:37,880
Speaker 1: Oh I forgot.

355
00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 2: A week later, I forgot that she told me to

356
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,440
Speaker 2: google how long it takes to die from hypothermia, and

357
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 2: so you know, a week later you think of that.

358
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 2: That's a pretty significant detail.

359
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,919
Speaker 3: I think the also adds it aren't just they're in

360
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,919
Speaker 3: the reports with what she's yelling on the scene, and

361
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 3: there's just so many of them. And I know we

362
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,359
Speaker 3: use death by a thousand cuts way too much, but

363
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,439
Speaker 3: it really seems overwhelming in my opinion, what the defense

364
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 3: has done that begs the question to me, what can

365
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 3: Lollie do to save it? And or can it be saved? Like,

366
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 3: what do you do at this point if you're the state,

367
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 3: You've got a dead police officer, you've got a defense

368
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,560
Speaker 3: that has put the state on trial. Let's not cut

369
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 3: you know, blow smoke up barbars. The defense put the

370
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,239
Speaker 3: state of mass or the commonwealth Master's on trial, and

371
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 3: they really did very effectively. Can the case be rescued

372
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 3: for the commonwealth?

373
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 2: Well, I think you end with the question of at

374
00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 2: the end of the day, by the time both of

375
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,359
Speaker 2: these prosecution defense rests, I don't think anybody is going

376
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 2: to be able to say what happened. And because of that,

377
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 2: I don't think the prosecution can save it.

378
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:56,359
Speaker 1: You can't have the Jimmy Buffett prosecution. It's nobody's fault. Well,

379
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 1: it could be my fault. Well, it is my fault.

380
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,159
Speaker 1: I mean, nobody even knows what she said. Did I

381
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: hit him? Could I have hit him?

382
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 3: No?

383
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:08,199
Speaker 1: I hit him. I mean, it's baffling to me. But

384
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: here's the other thing. They have thrown things in that

385
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: have just gobsmacked me. The two men kissing at the bar.

386
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 1: Were they kissing? Were they grab assen? Were they really fighting?

387
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,240
Speaker 1: What's going on? We still don't know, and now there's

388
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 1: this video. It's just odd from the waterfall bar. So

389
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 1: what are we supposed to do with that? I feel

390
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: bad for this jury. I'm telling you, I wonder.

391
00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 3: What their mentality is. And you know, we've talked about

392
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 3: this so many times. We're sitting here speculating from outside jurors.

393
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 3: When you leave the room, you leave the room that

394
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,880
Speaker 3: you literally a deputy walks you to a room where

395
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 3: you can't hear all of these other arguments. And for

396
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 3: all we know, these jurors had some idea of what's

397
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 3: going but they're not aware of this media explosion which has,

398
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 3: according to my friends up in New England, has taken

399
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: over the news feed up and bought like this is

400
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 3: the story, This is the big cultural event going on

401
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 3: up there. Every single person is talking about this case,

402
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 3: where now some of these media personalities from the community

403
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 3: are now getting regular airplay on big broadcast, and that

404
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,640
Speaker 3: begs the question is this fair? What is the impact

405
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 3: of these people on the criminal justice process? Because the

406
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 3: defense has been so clearly manufactured, could absolutely be true.

407
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: I just again want to thank both of you for

408
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: your genius, for your time, for your friendship this case.

409
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 1: I know it's been taking it out on y'all, but

410
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 1: I just appreciate y'all making time for us here at

411
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 1: Zone seven.

412
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Mac. We love you.

413
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you so much. Mac. I love this, I

414
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 3: love doing this, I love talking with you, and thank

415
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 3: you for having me on. You know, Ashley Clint any

416
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 3: different any day, really, any anytime, just call and be like, hey,

417
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 3: can you Yeah, but I'm there.

418
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven. H