WEBVTT - Make meetings better, with Rebecca Hinds 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:09.360 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:14.120 This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:17.599 Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.320 of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:22.919 they take their days from great to awesome and any 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.479 advice they have for the rest of us. So today 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:28.720 I am delighted to welcome Rebecca Hines to Before Breakfast. 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:31.680 Rebecca is the author of the new book Your Best 0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:36.040 Meeting Ever, Seven Principles for designing meetings that Get Things Done. So, Rebecca, 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:37.000 welcome to the show. 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:38.440 Thank you so much for having me. 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:41.640 Laura, I'm excited you could be here, and meetings is 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:43.199 a good topic. You know. 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:44.840 Why did you tell our listeners a little bit about 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:45.520 yourself first? 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:50.400 Sure? So, I've always been fascinated by organizational design and 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:54.480 how do you create organizations that are good for business 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:57.640 and good for people and collaboration in particular as an 0:00:57.640 --> 0:01:00.360 area I've long been fascinated by ever since I did 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.760 my bachelor as I went to Stanford and fell in 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:07.479 love with, you know, organizational behavior design there. I then 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:11.520 did my masters in the same program and subsequently my PhD. 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.240 Currently I lead the work AI Institute at Glean, which 0:01:15.280 --> 0:01:18.000 is our internal think tank, and previously I led the 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:22.399 work Innovation Lab at Asana, which was an internal research center, 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:27.640 and have long been fascinated as well about translating academic 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:33.160 type rigorous research into practical strategies and frameworks for executives 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:35.040 and leaders and workers in general. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.320 Yeah, well, meetings is an area that is definitely ripe 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:41.200 for improvement, as I know, you know and here all 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:48.360 the time, like what do mores organizations get wrong with meetings? 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.440 Because it seems like, you know, we have to meet 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.600 on occasion, and yet many people are very very unhappy 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:54.760 with the way those things go. 0:01:55.960 --> 0:02:01.280 Fundamentally, you know, we've accepted meetings, and in particular bad 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:05.640 or dysfunctional meetings, as an inevitable cost of doing business. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.760 And at the root of so much of the problem 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:13.040 is the fact that we use meetings as a lazy, default, 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:17.240 knee jerk reaction for communication that doesn't deserve to be 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:17.720 a meeting. 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:18.760 When we think. 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.520 About a meeting, it's you know, in the premise of 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:23.560 my book your best meeting ever is a meeting is 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.720 a product, right, It's the most important product that you 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.040 make as an organization. It's where decisions get made, priorities 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.799 get set, culture gets built, and yet it's also the 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:37.440 least optimized. And considering how much time, how much effort, 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:40.600 how much money we pour into meetings, the fact that 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.040 we don't take the time to intentionally design them is 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:47.000 both fascinating and deeply frustrating. 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.920 Yeah, because, I mean, first, there's the problem of volume. 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:53.160 I mean, I think you have some interesting numbers about 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.120 the sheer volume, both overall volume and then the proportion 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:58.960 of that that people feel as a waste of time. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:03.920 It's massive, and we've seen in particular over the last 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:06.520 two decades. Ever since the turn of the century, we've 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:10.760 seen collaboration in general in our organizations increase. We've seen 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.600 the time we spend in meetings increase, and I think 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:18.080 what's especially fascinating is through the pandemic, and in particular 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:22.120 between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty four, we saw the 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:27.160 time we spend in dysfunctional meetings increase significantly across all 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.400 levels of the organization. And you know, in theory it 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.520 should have decreased because we had all these new digital 0:03:33.560 --> 0:03:35.880 tools that should have allowed us to spend less time 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:38.440 in meetings and certainly less time in dysfunctional meetings. 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:39.960 But what we didn't have. 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.280 Is a system lens. Employees often didn't have clarity in 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.840 terms of where to do the work, and we know 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.960 when there's a lack of clarity again, we default back 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.360 to meetings because they are the most reliable way to 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.760 transmit information, although the most expensive one as well. 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:58.600 Yeah, well, that's one of the things driving the volume 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:01.160 is that it's bad community, right, That's one of your 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.640 main points, is that what goes wrong with communication that 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.280 people are like, no, I need to have a meeting. 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.360 Often meetings are used for information exchange, you know, and 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:12.960 we see that in status updates, we see that in 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:17.599 broadcast briefings, even within specific meetings, you know. Often so 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.520 much of the communication is information exchange that we know 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:26.360 can not only be done more efficiently in asynchronous channels, 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.200 but also more effectively. And we need to get out 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.240 of this habit of using meetings for those information exchange. 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.400 If they are this very expensive product, which they are, 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.160 you know, we should be using them very strategically. It 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:43.040 should only be used, you know, if we're making a decision, 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:47.279 if we're discussing something that's complex, if we're deciding something. 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.960 You know, if we're developing ourselves or our team, all 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.520 of these things require often synchronous, real time back and 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.760 forth collaboration in a way that information. 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.920 Exchanged is not yeah, so it's something. 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.000 It's like something needs to change in the world as 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.200 a result of this meeting taking place, and money do 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:09.880 not seem to actually clear that bar. 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:13.680 And it needs you know, meetings. There's a reason why 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.440 your best meeting ever is a positive promise and not. 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:20.800 You know, meetings suck because I truly believe that, you know, 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:24.400 meetings are the highest leverage way that we can improve 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:29.880 our ability to lead and our organizational performance, and yet 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.320 you know often they're not used for that very strategic purpose. 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.159 Well, let's start with the volume and how one might 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:40.200 go about reducing the volume of meetings. Maybe first you 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:42.039 can talk sort of systematically, and then we'll look at 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:44.279 what individual people can do, like if you aren't in 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:45.680 charge to reduce your volume. 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:48.839 So often when we when we think about volume in particular, 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.440 and I compare it to technical debt, I call it 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.279 meeting debt. Just like in our our products, we often 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:57.400 have technical debt that builds up over time. Shortcuts fixes 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.720 with meetings. The same thing happens in the form of 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:05.080 often legacy meetings or meetings that are scheduled once that 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:08.320 drag on and become recurring meetings and don't ever get 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:11.960 taken off the calendar, and we don't think intentionally about 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:16.239 is our calendar serving us right now? And so often 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:19.800 I'll work with organizations where the meeting debt is so bad, 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:23.680 you know, the meetings are so dysfunctional, and you know, 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:27.120 often these were meetings that once had a strong purpose 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.520 and were intentionally put on the calendar, but no longer 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.920 serve the work. And in those cases, often what I'll 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.120 recommend is a complete calendar reset. I call it a 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.680 meeting doomsday. It's a forty eight hour calendar cleanse, and 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:45.320 it's designed very intentionally. It's designed to put the ownership 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.760 into the hands of employees. Ideally it's done at a 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:52.600 system level, an organizational level, or team level, but it's 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.080 structured in a way that employees do the culling of 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.719 the meetings. They delete the meetings, and then tips and 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:04.080 t and strategies are given to them to decide which 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.160 meetings to bring back on the calendar. Every meeting needs 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:10.920 to earn its place, and that type of reset not 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.680 only clear as time and clear as calendars, but it 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:18.280 also because it is a fresh slate, it starts to 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.360 rewire our assumptions about what actually deserves to be a meeting. 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:29.120 And it also gives people explicit permission to decline meetings, 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.679 where we know that so much of that is psychological 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.760 in terms of we fear canceling meetings because meetings are 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:40.040 such a personal act. It's a social contract. When someone 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.760 schedules a meeting with you, you feel obliged to reciprocate 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:51.040 that invitation and doomsday. These calendar resets, if they're done intentionally, 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:56.040 they give employees permission to decline meetings, delete meetings in 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:59.480 a way that isn't taken personally by the organizer, because 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.760 it's it's an intentional, system wide or team wide effort. 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:04.800 Excellent. 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:06.240 Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:16.800 then i'll be back with Rebecca Hines talking about better meetings. Well, 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.400 I am back talking with Rebecca Hines about how to 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:22.080 have Your Best Meeting Ever, which is the title of 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.880 her new book. So, Rebecca, we've been talking about things 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:26.760 we can do systematically, and I know you've worked with 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.560 a couple of organizations that have done a meeting's doomsday, 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.439 a meeting armageddon, as it were, a forty eight hour 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:34.640 cleanse to get rid of all these meetings on the calendar. 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:36.880 Let's say I don't work for one of those places, 0:08:37.040 --> 0:08:39.520 and they have not brought you in as a consultant. 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:41.760 I am just feeling like I have a lot of meetings. 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:44.800 Is there something I can do to start changing that 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:45.960 volume on my calendar? 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.200 Absolutely, we are all co designers of better meetings, and 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.680 this is highly dependent on your role within the organization, 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.640 whether you're primarily a meeting organizer or a meeting attendee, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:03.920 and the level of psychological safety within the organization. But fundamentally, 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:07.240 we all need to have a good understanding of what 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:11.600 our priorities are at work, and realistically, our priorities at 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:14.760 work are what our calendar says they are, and so often, 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.959 you know, when I'm working with individuals or advising individuals, 0:09:18.280 --> 0:09:21.040 the first step is look at your calendar, and that's 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:25.040 a reflection of your priorities. Bucket the time you spend 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:29.080 often the majority is in meetings or some form of collaboration. 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.960 You know, bucket into different categories and then take a 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.560 beat and look at, Okay, what are your priorities as 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:40.719 you wish they would be, and how does that match up? 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.640 Because often what we'll see is you're spending disproportionately high 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:48.440 time in meetings and less time on the really important work, 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:52.800 the skilled work, the strategic work, the customer relationships. And 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:56.280 seeing that mismatch is often a first step, and then 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.240 you know lots of other strategies in terms of how 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.480 do we protect time. I'm a big proponent of meeting 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.520 blocks on our calendars and protecting those and then thinking 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:09.920 very carefully about when we do organize a meeting. I 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:13.360 often look at four key dimensions, so the length, the cadence, 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.560 the attendees, and the agenda items. And for each of 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:20.040 those dimensions there are lots of strategies that we can 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:23.040 put in place, even as an attendee, but especially as 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:27.200 an organizer, in terms of redesigning the length, the cadence, 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.400 the attendees, and the agenda items to be more valuable 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:32.400 for the people in the room. Length is a classic 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.120 example where we know meetings suffer from Parkinson's law. Meeting 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.319 work expands to fill the time allotted. If you look 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.240 at your calendar and most of your meetings are thirty 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.400 minutes or sixty minutes. It's a sign that we've just 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:51.920 accepted the calendar default and not thought intentionally about could 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.720 that thirty minute meeting be a twenty five minute meeting, 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:57.240 Could it be a fifteen minute meeting. All of these 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.320 things add up in a way that can meaningfully prove 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.480 our ability to hit our personal goals, have better work 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.840 life balance, and boost our organizational performance as well. 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:11.640 So I mean with one of that you mentioned in 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.160 the book that maybe ten hours was the tipping point 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:16.400 I was going to give people if they're adding up 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.240 their calendar, they're looking at what time I'm spending in meetings. 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.320 It's sort of ten hours what you might be aiming 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.360 for that or less if you're not in a role 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:27.400 that is like purely meeting based. 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.800 It's on average. So this is research that comes from 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:34.440 a fantastic organization that I've interacted with and worked with 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.600 over the year's work litics, and what they've essentially shown 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.760 is for the meetings they analyze, a whole host of 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:47.000 negative consequences tend to kick in once people exceed that 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.800 ten hour a week threshold. Now many many people, most 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.040 people are well above that threshold, and so I often 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:57.080 use it as a benchmark. You know, what would happen 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.319 if you did cut your meetings down to ten hours? 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:04.280 Would things fundamentally change in terms of your ability and 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.160 in particular hinder your ability to move work forward and 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:10.800 hit your objectives. And it's a useful conversation, It's a 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:13.640 useful benchmarket. It's never one size fits all, but I 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.720 think you know, having that ten hour a week threshold 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.080 and understanding that, you know, focus time, engagement tends to 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:22.480 dip once we get to that threshold, I think is 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:26.360 a is a useful thought exercise and for some people, 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.320 you know, very helpful in terms of a hard barrier. 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:32.000 And I've worked with many folks who will set that 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:33.920 hard barrier in terms of I'm not going to have 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.560 more than ten hours a week in meetings because I 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:40.360 recognize that my ability to perform in the meeting outside 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:42.319 the meeting is negatively impacted. 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.360 And how would you recommend like having that conversation with 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:47.880 a manager, Like let's say I add up the meetings 0:12:47.920 --> 0:12:48.199 on my. 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.160 Calendar and I met like, I don't know, twenty five. 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.880 Thirty hours a week of meetings, and I would like 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:54.600 to be closer to the ten hour number. How do 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.040 you start that conversation with the people who are. 0:12:57.760 --> 0:12:59.599 Managing your team or your organization. 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.839 It's always best to have objective data in terms of 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:07.800 what's working and what's not working. And that's why you 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.840 know these dedicated initiatives that I'll often you know, lead 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:15.400 or advise companies on where your level setting in terms 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.640 of what is an effective meeting? Right, an effective meeting, 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.319 your best meeting ever, is a meeting where the attendee 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:26.320 is not yourself as an organizer, leave knowing that the 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.840 time they've invested in that meeting has been well invested. 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.480 And so the more we can have data in terms 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.080 of Okay, I've asked attendees or I've rated these these 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.880 meetings and they're not effective, they're not serving me as 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:43.320 an individual or the team, the more you can then 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:47.200 give that information to the team member, the organizer, the 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:51.880 manager and have that conversation. In my experience, managers typically 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.400 respond very well to this. Certainly, there's some meetings where 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.760 we might not be getting as much value as we're 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.560 contributing to the meeting, and those in particular, we don't 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:05.320 want to be taking off the calendar too quickly, but 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.240 having that conversation. The big problem is many managers don't 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.560 have this conversation with employees in terms of it's okay 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.160 to walk out of a meeting where you're not contributing 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:19.640 value or reaping it, and it's likewise okay to have 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.800 a conversation with the organizer if the meeting isn't worth 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:26.280 your time. If you're coming from a place of intentionality, 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:27.480 people tend to. 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.320 Respect that, And you also suggest asking sort of leading 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:36.680 questions or curious sounding questions, like if we're discussing this topic. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.240 Will we have time to get to this thing on 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:40.000 the agenda? Is that a good. 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:45.960 Strategy if you're operating in a psychologically unsafe environment. Yes, 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.520 because the more you can disarm the sense of threat 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:53.440 that would be perceived by you calling out a bad meeting, 0:14:53.760 --> 0:15:00.640 the better your feedback or criticism disguised will be taking. Now, 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.520 if you're operating in a psychologically safe environment, you can 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.480 afford to be more blunt and assertive. We know that's 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:11.080 going to be more efficient and move things forward much 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.720 more effectively, and calling out specifically, you know, I don't 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.200 think this meeting is effective for this reason. You know 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.680 I'm coming from a place of wanting the meeting to 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:24.080 be better for everyone. Again, the level of psychological safety 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.840 really really matters in terms of the best most effective 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:29.200 approach that. 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:31.600 You talk about putting in little moments of joy to 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:33.600 make people actually want to come to a meeting. What 0:15:33.840 --> 0:15:36.680 can we do to make a meeting seem sort of fun, 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.200 I mean a little bit like a party. 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:43.120 I guess it's really important because if we're using meetings intentionally, 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.080 we should have fewer meetings, which means the meetings that 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:50.240 we have should be deeply human. Right, That's the purpose 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:55.000 of live synchronous interaction is those things that we need 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.440 our human empathy, our human body language trust to develop. 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:02.440 And we've gotten into, you know, a situation where people 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:06.720 have a visceral negative reaction to meetings. You ask people, 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.200 you know, do you like meetings? No one likes meetings. 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.840 You know you hear the grumbles right away. And so 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.720 I'm a big proponent of within all of our meetings, 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:18.280 as an organizer, you should be injecting at least one 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.960 moment of delight. It can be a five second moment, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:23.800 it can be a two second moment, it can be 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:28.880 a minute moment. But delight is this very interesting combination 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:33.120 of joy and surprise. And I think the surprise element 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:38.560 is really important because it causes people to think differently 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:43.160 and remember that moment that they weren't expecting. So it 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:44.800 can be a shout out, you know, you've done a 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.080 good job on this. You know, the person wasn't expecting 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.160 that the shout out. It can be you're bringing a 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.880 food item that has a you know, cookies or cupcakes 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:58.600 that has you know, some personal significance to you, something 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.640 that will cause in employees and the people in the 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:06.720 room to have a lasting positive impression because that will 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:10.200 then make them want to show up the next time 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.000 engaged in the contributions and the content of the meeting. 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.080 Just to say here, I mean, it's probably not asking 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.280 people for a fun fact, right, I mean, is there 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.240 a sort of another one that we could do for 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:24.840 making a moment of delight? 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.120 Yes, I think And we also, you know, I've seen 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:32.720 this this you know, negatively impacted meeting as well. When 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:36.520 we start to ask about weekend activities also anything where 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:41.840 you might have differences in terms of people's you know, 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.600 work life balance. You want to make sure your level 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.560 setting in terms of So that's why I love shout outs. 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.720 I love kudos. You know, everyone goes around and you know, 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:53.320 celebrate someone else. You know, we don't want to be 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:56.040 doing this in every meeting, but we know that peer 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:01.720 to peer recognition is also very effective and intrinsically motivated, 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.240 motivating for so many people. So that type of thing 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.239 where your level setting, you're ensuring you're not you know, 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:14.359 you're including everyone and asking questions where everyone feels excited 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:16.200 to contribute in some way. 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:16.959 Excellent. 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:18.760 Well, We're going to take one more quick ad break 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:28.400 and then I'll be back with more from Rebecca Hines. Well, 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.800 I am back talking with Rebecca Hines, who is the 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.760 author of Your Best Meeting Ever. So switching gears a 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:35.199 little bit. Rebecca, I wonder if you can tell us 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.440 a little bit about how you work, Like what does 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.040 a day look like for you these days? 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.320 Sure? So I try to structure my meetings very intentionally. 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:46.080 So I try. You know, I mentioned the four d 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.040 CEO tests in the book. A meeting should only happen 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.520 if you know fundamentally the purpose is to decide, debate, discuss, 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.439 or develop, And I'm pretty you know, stringent in terms 0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.040 of that. If If I don't think that's the case, 0:18:59.080 --> 0:19:01.720 I'll ask for an agenda, or I'll ask, you know, 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:04.520 what is my role in the meeting. I'll often, you know, 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.359 watch meetings asynchronously at one point five or two speed. 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:11.399 When I know that I'm not contributing value in the 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.160 meeting or reaping value from that that live synchronous communication. 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.440 I try to bundle different types of tasks. I think, 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.320 you know, I'm in the phase of my career where 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.120 I know how I work best, and I know when 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.600 you know I'm most creative. I know when I need 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:33.840 those deep focus blocks. If I'm doing similar types of activities, 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.520 I bundle those. I don't have too many back to 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:40.679 back meetings. Non negotiable for me is having you know, 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:43.320 some portion of every day where I'm at the gym 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.280 and working out and being active. Those are those are 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:49.960 non negotiables in terms of how I how I structure 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:50.359 my time. 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:52.680 I'm curious, do you have a morning routine. 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:56.680 I do have a morning routine at Ebbs and Flows. 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:00.359 You know, I'm at the late stages of life launching 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.640 this book, and so for the past year it's it's involved, 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.879 you know, doing work on the book before you know, 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.120 I go into my day job, and often that's you know, 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:13.240 a very early morning for a couple hours, and then 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:17.120 I'll switch gears for the majority of the day and 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:20.160 often I'll I'll go back and you know, catch up 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.919 on bookwork at the end of the day. It ebbs 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:27.399 and flows throughout my career, but I have learned in 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:31.200 terms of, you know, that balance of physical activity, taking 0:20:31.280 --> 0:20:33.960 time each day where I'm off the screen, even if 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:37.600 it's for half an hour, and sleep. I try to, 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:41.239 you know, be relatively consistent about in terms of I 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:44.480 recognize how important that is in me being able to 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:46.000 show up each day. 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:50.080 Absolutely, so I always ask my guests, what is something 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:52.639 you have done recently to take a day from great 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:53.360 to awesome. 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:59.280 So I'm a huge New Year's resolution person, and I 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.960 use resid lightly because they're more like goals for me. 0:21:03.040 --> 0:21:06.000 I grew up as an athlete and I've always loved 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:08.960 goal setting and that's been something that has given me 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:13.840 a lot of stability and clarity and motivation through you know, 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:16.520 every phase of my life and career. And so, you know, 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:20.000 I love those three or four days before the start 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.800 of the new year where I'm tinkering at my New 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.080 Year's resolutions, new Year's goals. I usually have, you know, 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.960 I usually have twelve or sixteen each year, recognizing that, 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.480 you know, if I hit ten, that'll be that'll be 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:35.200 a success, and have them be from different categories as well. 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.280 And I find, you know, that's already taken me from 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.520 good to great in terms of how I'm approaching this 0:21:40.640 --> 0:21:44.760 year and the intentionality with which you know, I'm spending 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:46.440 my time in investing my time. 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:47.720 Can you share one of them? 0:21:48.800 --> 0:21:52.800 Oh, I'm so superstitious. Okay, all right, I'll have to, 0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:55.439 I'll share. So I always have, you know, there are 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:59.240 two or three that are more physical physical activity related. 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.879 They're always two or three that are more family relationship oriented. 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:07.119 There are always two or three that are more work related. 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:11.240 I'm still very active doing research and academic research, so 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:14.760 I build in a category for that. And then also 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:17.480 I do have you know, one or two each year 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:21.800 that are about that delight and joy and being happy 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.359 and doing things that will make myself happy and others 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:28.480 happy as well. I'm a big believer in generosity and giving, 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:31.280