1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning. 2 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 2: Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 2: they take their days from great to awesome and any 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 2: advice they have for the rest of us. So today 7 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 2: I am delighted to welcome Rebecca Hines to Before Breakfast. 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: Rebecca is the author of the new book Your Best 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: Meeting Ever, Seven Principles for designing meetings that Get Things Done. So, Rebecca, 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 2: welcome to the show. 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. 12 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: Laura, I'm excited you could be here, and meetings is 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 2: a good topic. You know. 14 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: Why did you tell our listeners a little bit about 15 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: yourself first? 16 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 3: Sure? So, I've always been fascinated by organizational design and 17 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 3: how do you create organizations that are good for business 18 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 3: and good for people and collaboration in particular as an 19 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 3: area I've long been fascinated by ever since I did 20 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 3: my bachelor as I went to Stanford and fell in 21 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,479 Speaker 3: love with, you know, organizational behavior design there. I then 22 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 3: did my masters in the same program and subsequently my PhD. 23 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 3: Currently I lead the work AI Institute at Glean, which 24 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 3: is our internal think tank, and previously I led the 25 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 3: work Innovation Lab at Asana, which was an internal research center, 26 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 3: and have long been fascinated as well about translating academic 27 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 3: type rigorous research into practical strategies and frameworks for executives 28 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 3: and leaders and workers in general. 29 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, meetings is an area that is definitely ripe 30 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 2: for improvement, as I know, you know and here all 31 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 2: the time, like what do mores organizations get wrong with meetings? 32 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: Because it seems like, you know, we have to meet 33 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: on occasion, and yet many people are very very unhappy 34 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: with the way those things go. 35 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 3: Fundamentally, you know, we've accepted meetings, and in particular bad 36 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 3: or dysfunctional meetings, as an inevitable cost of doing business. 37 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 3: And at the root of so much of the problem 38 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 3: is the fact that we use meetings as a lazy, default, 39 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 3: knee jerk reaction for communication that doesn't deserve to be 40 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 3: a meeting. 41 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: When we think. 42 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 3: About a meeting, it's you know, in the premise of 43 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 3: my book your best meeting ever is a meeting is 44 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: a product, right, It's the most important product that you 45 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: make as an organization. It's where decisions get made, priorities 46 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 3: get set, culture gets built, and yet it's also the 47 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 3: least optimized. And considering how much time, how much effort, 48 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 3: how much money we pour into meetings, the fact that 49 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: we don't take the time to intentionally design them is 50 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 3: both fascinating and deeply frustrating. 51 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, because, I mean, first, there's the problem of volume. 52 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I think you have some interesting numbers about 53 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: the sheer volume, both overall volume and then the proportion 54 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: of that that people feel as a waste of time. 55 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 3: It's massive, and we've seen in particular over the last 56 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 3: two decades. Ever since the turn of the century, we've 57 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: seen collaboration in general in our organizations increase. We've seen 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 3: the time we spend in meetings increase, and I think 59 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 3: what's especially fascinating is through the pandemic, and in particular 60 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 3: between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty four, we saw the 61 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 3: time we spend in dysfunctional meetings increase significantly across all 62 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 3: levels of the organization. And you know, in theory it 63 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 3: should have decreased because we had all these new digital 64 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 3: tools that should have allowed us to spend less time 65 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 3: in meetings and certainly less time in dysfunctional meetings. 66 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: But what we didn't have. 67 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 3: Is a system lens. Employees often didn't have clarity in 68 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 3: terms of where to do the work, and we know 69 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 3: when there's a lack of clarity again, we default back 70 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 3: to meetings because they are the most reliable way to 71 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: transmit information, although the most expensive one as well. 72 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that's one of the things driving the volume 73 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: is that it's bad community, right, That's one of your 74 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: main points, is that what goes wrong with communication that 75 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 2: people are like, no, I need to have a meeting. 76 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 3: Often meetings are used for information exchange, you know, and 77 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 3: we see that in status updates, we see that in 78 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 3: broadcast briefings, even within specific meetings, you know. Often so 79 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 3: much of the communication is information exchange that we know 80 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 3: can not only be done more efficiently in asynchronous channels, 81 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: but also more effectively. And we need to get out 82 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 3: of this habit of using meetings for those information exchange. 83 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 3: If they are this very expensive product, which they are, 84 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 3: you know, we should be using them very strategically. It 85 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 3: should only be used, you know, if we're making a decision, 86 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 3: if we're discussing something that's complex, if we're deciding something. 87 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 3: You know, if we're developing ourselves or our team, all 88 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 3: of these things require often synchronous, real time back and 89 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 3: forth collaboration in a way that information. 90 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: Exchanged is not yeah, so it's something. 91 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: It's like something needs to change in the world as 92 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 2: a result of this meeting taking place, and money do 93 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: not seem to actually clear that bar. 94 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 3: And it needs you know, meetings. There's a reason why 95 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 3: your best meeting ever is a positive promise and not. 96 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 3: You know, meetings suck because I truly believe that, you know, 97 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 3: meetings are the highest leverage way that we can improve 98 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 3: our ability to lead and our organizational performance, and yet 99 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 3: you know often they're not used for that very strategic purpose. 100 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 2: Well, let's start with the volume and how one might 101 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: go about reducing the volume of meetings. Maybe first you 102 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 2: can talk sort of systematically, and then we'll look at 103 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 2: what individual people can do, like if you aren't in 104 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: charge to reduce your volume. 105 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 3: So often when we when we think about volume in particular, 106 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: and I compare it to technical debt, I call it 107 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 3: meeting debt. Just like in our our products, we often 108 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 3: have technical debt that builds up over time. Shortcuts fixes 109 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 3: with meetings. The same thing happens in the form of 110 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 3: often legacy meetings or meetings that are scheduled once that 111 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: drag on and become recurring meetings and don't ever get 112 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 3: taken off the calendar, and we don't think intentionally about 113 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,239 Speaker 3: is our calendar serving us right now? And so often 114 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 3: I'll work with organizations where the meeting debt is so bad, 115 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 3: you know, the meetings are so dysfunctional, and you know, 116 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 3: often these were meetings that once had a strong purpose 117 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: and were intentionally put on the calendar, but no longer 118 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 3: serve the work. And in those cases, often what I'll 119 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 3: recommend is a complete calendar reset. I call it a 120 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 3: meeting doomsday. It's a forty eight hour calendar cleanse, and 121 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 3: it's designed very intentionally. It's designed to put the ownership 122 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 3: into the hands of employees. Ideally it's done at a 123 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 3: system level, an organizational level, or team level, but it's 124 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 3: structured in a way that employees do the culling of 125 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 3: the meetings. They delete the meetings, and then tips and 126 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: t and strategies are given to them to decide which 127 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 3: meetings to bring back on the calendar. Every meeting needs 128 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 3: to earn its place, and that type of reset not 129 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 3: only clear as time and clear as calendars, but it 130 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 3: also because it is a fresh slate, it starts to 131 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 3: rewire our assumptions about what actually deserves to be a meeting. 132 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 3: And it also gives people explicit permission to decline meetings, 133 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,679 Speaker 3: where we know that so much of that is psychological 134 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 3: in terms of we fear canceling meetings because meetings are 135 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 3: such a personal act. It's a social contract. When someone 136 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 3: schedules a meeting with you, you feel obliged to reciprocate 137 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 3: that invitation and doomsday. These calendar resets, if they're done intentionally, 138 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 3: they give employees permission to decline meetings, delete meetings in 139 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 3: a way that isn't taken personally by the organizer, because 140 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 3: it's it's an intentional, system wide or team wide effort. 141 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: Excellent. 142 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and 143 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 2: then i'll be back with Rebecca Hines talking about better meetings. Well, 144 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: I am back talking with Rebecca Hines about how to 145 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: have Your Best Meeting Ever, which is the title of 146 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 2: her new book. So, Rebecca, we've been talking about things 147 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 2: we can do systematically, and I know you've worked with 148 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 2: a couple of organizations that have done a meeting's doomsday, 149 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 2: a meeting armageddon, as it were, a forty eight hour 150 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: cleanse to get rid of all these meetings on the calendar. 151 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 2: Let's say I don't work for one of those places, 152 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: and they have not brought you in as a consultant. 153 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 2: I am just feeling like I have a lot of meetings. 154 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: Is there something I can do to start changing that 155 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: volume on my calendar? 156 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 3: Absolutely, we are all co designers of better meetings, and 157 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 3: this is highly dependent on your role within the organization, 158 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 3: whether you're primarily a meeting organizer or a meeting attendee, 159 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 3: and the level of psychological safety within the organization. But fundamentally, 160 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 3: we all need to have a good understanding of what 161 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 3: our priorities are at work, and realistically, our priorities at 162 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 3: work are what our calendar says they are, and so often, 163 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 3: you know, when I'm working with individuals or advising individuals, 164 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 3: the first step is look at your calendar, and that's 165 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: a reflection of your priorities. Bucket the time you spend 166 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 3: often the majority is in meetings or some form of collaboration. 167 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 3: You know, bucket into different categories and then take a 168 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 3: beat and look at, Okay, what are your priorities as 169 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 3: you wish they would be, and how does that match up? 170 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 3: Because often what we'll see is you're spending disproportionately high 171 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 3: time in meetings and less time on the really important work, 172 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 3: the skilled work, the strategic work, the customer relationships. And 173 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 3: seeing that mismatch is often a first step, and then 174 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 3: you know lots of other strategies in terms of how 175 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 3: do we protect time. I'm a big proponent of meeting 176 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 3: blocks on our calendars and protecting those and then thinking 177 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 3: very carefully about when we do organize a meeting. I 178 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 3: often look at four key dimensions, so the length, the cadence, 179 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 3: the attendees, and the agenda items. And for each of 180 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 3: those dimensions there are lots of strategies that we can 181 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: put in place, even as an attendee, but especially as 182 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 3: an organizer, in terms of redesigning the length, the cadence, 183 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 3: the attendees, and the agenda items to be more valuable 184 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 3: for the people in the room. Length is a classic 185 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: example where we know meetings suffer from Parkinson's law. Meeting 186 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 3: work expands to fill the time allotted. If you look 187 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 3: at your calendar and most of your meetings are thirty 188 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: minutes or sixty minutes. It's a sign that we've just 189 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 3: accepted the calendar default and not thought intentionally about could 190 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 3: that thirty minute meeting be a twenty five minute meeting, 191 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: Could it be a fifteen minute meeting. All of these 192 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 3: things add up in a way that can meaningfully prove 193 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 3: our ability to hit our personal goals, have better work 194 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 3: life balance, and boost our organizational performance as well. 195 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: So I mean with one of that you mentioned in 196 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 2: the book that maybe ten hours was the tipping point 197 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 2: I was going to give people if they're adding up 198 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: their calendar, they're looking at what time I'm spending in meetings. 199 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 2: It's sort of ten hours what you might be aiming 200 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 2: for that or less if you're not in a role 201 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: that is like purely meeting based. 202 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 3: It's on average. So this is research that comes from 203 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 3: a fantastic organization that I've interacted with and worked with 204 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 3: over the year's work litics, and what they've essentially shown 205 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 3: is for the meetings they analyze, a whole host of 206 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: negative consequences tend to kick in once people exceed that 207 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 3: ten hour a week threshold. Now many many people, most 208 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: people are well above that threshold, and so I often 209 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 3: use it as a benchmark. You know, what would happen 210 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 3: if you did cut your meetings down to ten hours? 211 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 3: Would things fundamentally change in terms of your ability and 212 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 3: in particular hinder your ability to move work forward and 213 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 3: hit your objectives. And it's a useful conversation, It's a 214 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 3: useful benchmarket. It's never one size fits all, but I 215 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: think you know, having that ten hour a week threshold 216 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 3: and understanding that, you know, focus time, engagement tends to 217 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 3: dip once we get to that threshold, I think is 218 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 3: a is a useful thought exercise and for some people, 219 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 3: you know, very helpful in terms of a hard barrier. 220 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 3: And I've worked with many folks who will set that 221 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 3: hard barrier in terms of I'm not going to have 222 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 3: more than ten hours a week in meetings because I 223 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 3: recognize that my ability to perform in the meeting outside 224 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,319 Speaker 3: the meeting is negatively impacted. 225 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,360 Speaker 2: And how would you recommend like having that conversation with 226 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 2: a manager, Like let's say I add up the meetings 227 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 2: on my. 228 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: Calendar and I met like, I don't know, twenty five. 229 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 2: Thirty hours a week of meetings, and I would like 230 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 2: to be closer to the ten hour number. How do 231 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: you start that conversation with the people who are. 232 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,599 Speaker 1: Managing your team or your organization. 233 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 3: It's always best to have objective data in terms of 234 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 3: what's working and what's not working. And that's why you 235 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 3: know these dedicated initiatives that I'll often you know, lead 236 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: or advise companies on where your level setting in terms 237 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 3: of what is an effective meeting? Right, an effective meeting, 238 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,319 Speaker 3: your best meeting ever, is a meeting where the attendee 239 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 3: is not yourself as an organizer, leave knowing that the 240 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 3: time they've invested in that meeting has been well invested. 241 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 3: And so the more we can have data in terms 242 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 3: of Okay, I've asked attendees or I've rated these these 243 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: meetings and they're not effective, they're not serving me as 244 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 3: an individual or the team, the more you can then 245 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 3: give that information to the team member, the organizer, the 246 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 3: manager and have that conversation. In my experience, managers typically 247 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 3: respond very well to this. Certainly, there's some meetings where 248 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 3: we might not be getting as much value as we're 249 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 3: contributing to the meeting, and those in particular, we don't 250 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 3: want to be taking off the calendar too quickly, but 251 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 3: having that conversation. The big problem is many managers don't 252 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 3: have this conversation with employees in terms of it's okay 253 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: to walk out of a meeting where you're not contributing 254 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 3: value or reaping it, and it's likewise okay to have 255 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 3: a conversation with the organizer if the meeting isn't worth 256 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: your time. If you're coming from a place of intentionality, 257 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 3: people tend to. 258 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: Respect that, And you also suggest asking sort of leading 259 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 2: questions or curious sounding questions, like if we're discussing this topic. 260 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: Will we have time to get to this thing on 261 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: the agenda? Is that a good. 262 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: Strategy if you're operating in a psychologically unsafe environment. Yes, 263 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 3: because the more you can disarm the sense of threat 264 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 3: that would be perceived by you calling out a bad meeting, 265 00:14:53,760 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 3: the better your feedback or criticism disguised will be taking. Now, 266 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 3: if you're operating in a psychologically safe environment, you can 267 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 3: afford to be more blunt and assertive. We know that's 268 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: going to be more efficient and move things forward much 269 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 3: more effectively, and calling out specifically, you know, I don't 270 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: think this meeting is effective for this reason. You know 271 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 3: I'm coming from a place of wanting the meeting to 272 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 3: be better for everyone. Again, the level of psychological safety 273 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 3: really really matters in terms of the best most effective 274 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 3: approach that. 275 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: You talk about putting in little moments of joy to 276 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: make people actually want to come to a meeting. What 277 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 2: can we do to make a meeting seem sort of fun, 278 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 2: I mean a little bit like a party. 279 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 3: I guess it's really important because if we're using meetings intentionally, 280 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 3: we should have fewer meetings, which means the meetings that 281 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 3: we have should be deeply human. Right, That's the purpose 282 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 3: of live synchronous interaction is those things that we need 283 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 3: our human empathy, our human body language trust to develop. 284 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 3: And we've gotten into, you know, a situation where people 285 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 3: have a visceral negative reaction to meetings. You ask people, 286 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 3: you know, do you like meetings? No one likes meetings. 287 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 3: You know you hear the grumbles right away. And so 288 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 3: I'm a big proponent of within all of our meetings, 289 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 3: as an organizer, you should be injecting at least one 290 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 3: moment of delight. It can be a five second moment, 291 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 3: it can be a two second moment, it can be 292 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 3: a minute moment. But delight is this very interesting combination 293 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 3: of joy and surprise. And I think the surprise element 294 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 3: is really important because it causes people to think differently 295 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 3: and remember that moment that they weren't expecting. So it 296 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 3: can be a shout out, you know, you've done a 297 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 3: good job on this. You know, the person wasn't expecting 298 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 3: that the shout out. It can be you're bringing a 299 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 3: food item that has a you know, cookies or cupcakes 300 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 3: that has you know, some personal significance to you, something 301 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 3: that will cause in employees and the people in the 302 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 3: room to have a lasting positive impression because that will 303 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 3: then make them want to show up the next time 304 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 3: engaged in the contributions and the content of the meeting. 305 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 2: Just to say here, I mean, it's probably not asking 306 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 2: people for a fun fact, right, I mean, is there 307 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 2: a sort of another one that we could do for 308 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: making a moment of delight? 309 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 3: Yes, I think And we also, you know, I've seen 310 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 3: this this you know, negatively impacted meeting as well. When 311 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 3: we start to ask about weekend activities also anything where 312 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 3: you might have differences in terms of people's you know, 313 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 3: work life balance. You want to make sure your level 314 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: setting in terms of So that's why I love shout outs. 315 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 3: I love kudos. You know, everyone goes around and you know, 316 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 3: celebrate someone else. You know, we don't want to be 317 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 3: doing this in every meeting, but we know that peer 318 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 3: to peer recognition is also very effective and intrinsically motivated, 319 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: motivating for so many people. So that type of thing 320 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,239 Speaker 3: where your level setting, you're ensuring you're not you know, 321 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 3: you're including everyone and asking questions where everyone feels excited 322 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 3: to contribute in some way. 323 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:16,959 Speaker 1: Excellent. 324 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 2: Well, We're going to take one more quick ad break 325 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 2: and then I'll be back with more from Rebecca Hines. Well, 326 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 2: I am back talking with Rebecca Hines, who is the 327 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 2: author of Your Best Meeting Ever. So switching gears a 328 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 2: little bit. Rebecca, I wonder if you can tell us 329 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 2: a little bit about how you work, Like what does 330 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 2: a day look like for you these days? 331 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 3: Sure? So I try to structure my meetings very intentionally. 332 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 3: So I try. You know, I mentioned the four d 333 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 3: CEO tests in the book. A meeting should only happen 334 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: if you know fundamentally the purpose is to decide, debate, discuss, 335 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 3: or develop, And I'm pretty you know, stringent in terms 336 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 3: of that. If If I don't think that's the case, 337 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 3: I'll ask for an agenda, or I'll ask, you know, 338 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 3: what is my role in the meeting. I'll often, you know, 339 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 3: watch meetings asynchronously at one point five or two speed. 340 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 3: When I know that I'm not contributing value in the 341 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 3: meeting or reaping value from that that live synchronous communication. 342 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 3: I try to bundle different types of tasks. I think, 343 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 3: you know, I'm in the phase of my career where 344 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 3: I know how I work best, and I know when 345 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 3: you know I'm most creative. I know when I need 346 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 3: those deep focus blocks. If I'm doing similar types of activities, 347 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 3: I bundle those. I don't have too many back to 348 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 3: back meetings. Non negotiable for me is having you know, 349 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: some portion of every day where I'm at the gym 350 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: and working out and being active. Those are those are 351 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 3: non negotiables in terms of how I how I structure 352 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:50,359 Speaker 3: my time. 353 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: I'm curious, do you have a morning routine. 354 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 3: I do have a morning routine at Ebbs and Flows. 355 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 3: You know, I'm at the late stages of life launching 356 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 3: this book, and so for the past year it's it's involved, 357 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,879 Speaker 3: you know, doing work on the book before you know, 358 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,120 Speaker 3: I go into my day job, and often that's you know, 359 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 3: a very early morning for a couple hours, and then 360 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 3: I'll switch gears for the majority of the day and 361 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,160 Speaker 3: often I'll I'll go back and you know, catch up 362 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 3: on bookwork at the end of the day. It ebbs 363 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 3: and flows throughout my career, but I have learned in 364 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 3: terms of, you know, that balance of physical activity, taking 365 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 3: time each day where I'm off the screen, even if 366 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 3: it's for half an hour, and sleep. I try to, 367 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,239 Speaker 3: you know, be relatively consistent about in terms of I 368 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 3: recognize how important that is in me being able to 369 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 3: show up each day. 370 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely, so I always ask my guests, what is something 371 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 2: you have done recently to take a day from great 372 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 2: to awesome. 373 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 3: So I'm a huge New Year's resolution person, and I 374 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 3: use resid lightly because they're more like goals for me. 375 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 3: I grew up as an athlete and I've always loved 376 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 3: goal setting and that's been something that has given me 377 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 3: a lot of stability and clarity and motivation through you know, 378 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 3: every phase of my life and career. And so, you know, 379 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 3: I love those three or four days before the start 380 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 3: of the new year where I'm tinkering at my New 381 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 3: Year's resolutions, new Year's goals. I usually have, you know, 382 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 3: I usually have twelve or sixteen each year, recognizing that, 383 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 3: you know, if I hit ten, that'll be that'll be 384 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 3: a success, and have them be from different categories as well. 385 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 3: And I find, you know, that's already taken me from 386 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 3: good to great in terms of how I'm approaching this 387 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 3: year and the intentionality with which you know, I'm spending 388 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 3: my time in investing my time. 389 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: Can you share one of them? 390 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 3: Oh, I'm so superstitious. Okay, all right, I'll have to, 391 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 3: I'll share. So I always have, you know, there are 392 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 3: two or three that are more physical physical activity related. 393 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 3: They're always two or three that are more family relationship oriented. 394 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 3: There are always two or three that are more work related. 395 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 3: I'm still very active doing research and academic research, so 396 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 3: I build in a category for that. And then also 397 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 3: I do have you know, one or two each year 398 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 3: that are about that delight and joy and being happy 399 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 3: and doing things that will make myself happy and others 400 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 3: happy as well. I'm a big believer in generosity and giving, 401 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 3: and so those are the sorts of categories that I 402 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 3: think about each year. 403 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: Gotcha, what are you looking forward to Right now. 404 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to the book launch. It's been so 405 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 3: fun to work with organizations and help them fix their 406 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 3: meeting dysfunctions. You know, I've last week I was working 407 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 3: with both a very large oil and gas company and 408 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 3: a book publisher and a tech company and seeing the 409 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 3: similarities but also the unique nuances of each industry and 410 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 3: person has been so fun. And shifting from the writing 411 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 3: to you know, the real practical which I love to 412 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 3: do as well. 413 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,240 Speaker 1: Excellent And where can people find you? 414 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 3: So my book is is everywhere your favorite bookstore. My 415 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 3: website's Rebecca Heines dot com and I'm active on LinkedIn 416 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 3: as well. 417 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: Excellent. 418 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 2: Well, Rebecca, thank you so much for joining us. Thank 419 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback on 420 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 2: this or any other episode, you can always reach me 421 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. And in the meantime, 422 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making 423 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 2: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. 424 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 2: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach 425 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast 426 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 2: is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, 427 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 2: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 428 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.