Speaker 1: Warning, Today's episode contains lots of spoilers for thirty year
Speaker 1: old episodes of Batman the Animated series Dunt dunt d
Speaker 1: which is not.
Speaker 2: A big deal.
Speaker 1: Truthfully, not a big deal.
Speaker 2: You can just listen to this and then go watch
Speaker 2: the episodes. It's not gonna ruin your enjoyment. It's gonna
Speaker 2: be you.
Speaker 1: Hello. My name is Jasoncepcion and I'm Rosie Knight, and
Speaker 1: welcome back to X Revision, the podcast where we dive
Speaker 1: deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, and pop culture
Speaker 1: with me. iHeart podcast. Will We'll bring you two episodes
Speaker 1: a week every Tuesday and Thursday.
Speaker 2: This is a very special episode. We're not gonna teach
Speaker 2: you a PSA lesson, but it is the first episode
Speaker 2: all Animation Month, and we're going to be celebrating Batman
Speaker 2: the Animated Series to kick it off, and in the
Speaker 2: back matter, we are going to be talking to some
Speaker 2: of our favorite Batman fans about the legacy and lasting
Speaker 2: impact of Batman the Animated series.
Speaker 1: First the airlock. All right, folks, were stepping out of
Speaker 1: the airlock to talk about our top five personal top
Speaker 1: five episodes of Batman the Animated series. Rosie, do you
Speaker 1: want to talk about your criteria? I love your list.
Speaker 2: Okay, so my criteria. I went for a mix of
Speaker 2: the ones that I honestly do think stand out as
Speaker 2: this is why this show is so fantastic, Like especially
Speaker 2: the first one that I'll talk about after your first pick.
Speaker 2: I think that's one of the ones where you can
Speaker 2: show it to someone and they'll go, oh, this is
Speaker 2: not why I expected from an animated series. This is more,
Speaker 2: this is deeper, this is more emotional, this is more
Speaker 2: brilliantly written. But also some of them are I just
Speaker 2: I did Pepper in a few there, and I think
Speaker 2: this speaks to the quality of the show that are
Speaker 2: just the ones that I go back to or the
Speaker 2: ones that I so deeply remember watching for the first time.
Speaker 2: I have one on there that I watch every year
Speaker 2: at Christmas. I put it in as my Christmas watching.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: Kind of a mix of personal things that I like
Speaker 2: and also like what I think are some of the
Speaker 2: best examples of why the show is so special. But
Speaker 2: also I do think it speaks to the quality of
Speaker 2: the show that really anyone's favorite episodes are probably some
Speaker 2: of the best episodes because they're just all so good.
Speaker 2: What was your criteria?
Speaker 1: My criteria was Landmark episodes that significantly influenced the comic cannon.
Speaker 1: So those are easy, right, There's several of them, those
Speaker 1: episodes that contained interesting like meta commentary on fandom, on
Speaker 1: the characters, on the fans relationship to the characters that exists,
Speaker 1: like on top of what is you know, always really
Speaker 1: fun and engaging Batman or Batman Rogues Gallery story. And
Speaker 1: there's so much of that, whether it's like interesting casting choices,
Speaker 1: little easter eggs in there, there's a bunch of those
Speaker 1: episodes to choose from. And the other thing is there's
Speaker 1: really I guess like people would say that a Batman
Speaker 1: in the Basement is like the worst episode of Batman
Speaker 1: Animated series. I think I think Bruce tim came out
Speaker 1: and said that they really like they missed with that one,
Speaker 1: and he's unhappy with it. I think he might have
Speaker 1: said that he's like never seen it ever since it
Speaker 1: came out. But it's really not there's it's that bad.
Speaker 1: There's there's there's no truly awful episode of Batman the
Speaker 1: animated series. The batting average is so high, and so
Speaker 1: there's really a lot to pick from, and so I
Speaker 1: really just tried to pick for stuff that I felt
Speaker 1: like had a lasting impact. And also I like the Joker,
Speaker 1: so I picked multiple Joker. Yeah episodes. Shall we get started?
Speaker 2: Yes, your first episode, I want to go on for one. Well,
Speaker 2: let's go one for one, and your first one not
Speaker 2: a Joker episode, So start now.
Speaker 1: A Joker episode. Heart of Ice.
Speaker 2: Oh ten out of ten.
Speaker 1: Mark Bernardin talked about why it's great, and it is great.
Speaker 1: You know, mister Freeze, we learn his backstory. He was
Speaker 1: a scientist doing experiments and his wife was the subject
Speaker 1: inside this cryo freeze chamber, and sadly, this like middle
Speaker 1: management executive named Boyle comes in and makes like a
Speaker 1: command decision in the middle of this experiment, and that
Speaker 1: causes mister Freese's wife to pass away inside the cry damper.
Speaker 1: And he develops this entire supervillain persona to seek revent
Speaker 1: And there's this melancholy sadness to the episode that has
Speaker 1: affected the way mister Freeze has been depicted, you know
Speaker 1: later on, like in comics and in movies, and it's
Speaker 1: just a wonderful episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they literally adapt this in Batman and Robin like
Speaker 2: this is what mister Freeze onnos watcheneggis mister freeze backstory
Speaker 2: is in the movie. We also get this kind of
Speaker 2: recognition of like Batman understanding where mister Freeze comes from
Speaker 2: in this episode too, where he's kind of at the
Speaker 2: end he's like sympathetically watching him as he kind of
Speaker 2: cries that he hasn't been able to avenge his wife.
Speaker 2: Also the Nora Inner snow globe that becomes like a
Speaker 2: huge part of his story, that becomes the you know
Speaker 2: that's in Batman and Robin that's in the comics. This
Speaker 2: is basically a complete reimagining of mister Freeze, you know,
Speaker 2: his actual origin story that then went on to like
Speaker 2: you say, completely changed, yes, everything comics, movies, whatever you're watching.
Speaker 2: And it's also set off like a four movie or
Speaker 2: four episode one movie arc in the animed stuff that's
Speaker 2: just about Victor Freeze, which I think is really cool.
Speaker 1: It's really cool. It's such a big swing, particularly early
Speaker 1: in the in a in the run of Batman the Enemy,
Speaker 1: I think it's like the fourth episode to take like
Speaker 1: this like massive swing like this, Yeah, it's and it
Speaker 1: and it showed you how actually deep this show could
Speaker 1: be because on the one level, it's just like a fun,
Speaker 1: very consumable little Batman's story, but on it's got all
Speaker 1: these other levels to it. The emotional level, the fact
Speaker 1: that it's kind of like softly retconning a like giving
Speaker 1: you an alternate take of a character. Uh, there's the
Speaker 1: fact that, like aesthetically, there's all this kind of cool
Speaker 1: tones blues and like mules and stuff that have worked
Speaker 1: into it to really enhance the theme. It's just great.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Also won a Daytime Emmy Award for Outstanding Writing
Speaker 2: in an Animated Program. So really, like you said, big swings. Also,
Speaker 2: I will say to those listening out there who love
Speaker 2: to have the the intricate details. Batman Animated Series has
Speaker 2: a weird situation when it comes to episodes because there
Speaker 2: were multiple episode orders. Yes, so if we say episode
Speaker 2: that might be a different running order. I think this
Speaker 2: was episode four. I also think in some running orders
Speaker 2: it was episode fourteen. It was shown differently on different channels,
Speaker 2: so there may be some that's it.
Speaker 1: You bring up a good point because this was also
Speaker 1: the period of time where if you missed an episode
Speaker 1: of Batman series, then you missed it.
Speaker 2: Good luck, good one you would hear.
Speaker 1: About it and then maybe years later, you know when
Speaker 1: it was when the run was like released at Blockbuster
Speaker 1: or something, you might be able to watch it, but
Speaker 1: you would just not.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they then they did the new Batman animated stories,
Speaker 1: but then they compile it, it was just, yeah, run
Speaker 1: order can be a mess.
Speaker 2: It's also really interesting because this has aired on so
Speaker 2: many different networks, and apparently when it aired on toon Disney,
Speaker 2: they actually removed two lines where Batman says, my god,
Speaker 2: they thought that was too expletative, and then mister Freezer's line,
Speaker 2: I'd kill for that, So there were also different versions.
Speaker 2: Obviously now I'd killed for that. Yeah, Michael Ansara, what
Speaker 2: a performance, just such a such a that's such a
Speaker 2: brilliant episode. I'm so glad you picked it. I mean
Speaker 2: I literally read an anthology issue of that DC does
Speaker 2: every year they do these fun like Nuclear Winter or
Speaker 2: like they have different names, and I read a great
Speaker 2: anthology issue that I believe was and it had a
Speaker 2: Bruce tim story in it. There was about mister Freeze
Speaker 2: and he, you know, creating all this snow and it's
Speaker 2: stopping people from being able to get their Christmas presents,
Speaker 2: but he allowed Robin to go and get the Christmas
Speaker 2: present that he wanted for Batman, and the real reason
Speaker 2: he made it snow is because he's thinking of his wife.
Speaker 2: So even like twenty thirty years later, it's still influencing
Speaker 2: how we see him as more of a tragic figure
Speaker 2: rather than just another wacky kind of silver age rogue.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's something else too in this episode and a
Speaker 1: lot of the other episodes that I picked that I
Speaker 1: kind of which would wish had influenced the depictions of
Speaker 1: Batman more, which is he is such a he's you know,
Speaker 1: he's trying to bring mister Freese to justice. He also
Speaker 1: brings a boil to justice. That said, while he's this
Speaker 1: tough protagonist, he's also like very empathic towards Miss Oh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's he's deeply affected by mister Freeze's backstory. And there's
Speaker 1: that there's a gentleness to the Batman, the animated series
Speaker 1: Batman that I wish would carry away some of the
Speaker 1: other stuff.
Speaker 2: There's something there's a softness to him that's.
Speaker 1: Not just like a usful like I must bring all
Speaker 1: Riddle to justice, you know, like there's something there's a
Speaker 1: deeper well of emotion there with him.
Speaker 2: And also he is softer as both Bruce and Batman
Speaker 2: in this series, which I like he and you get.
Speaker 2: I think that's why you get such brilliant relationships. And
Speaker 2: also just like unbelievable casting. I mean Mark Hamier obviously
Speaker 2: known best for being the Joker, but he's Ferris Boyle
Speaker 2: in that episode, like it's a classic animated thing. Michael
Speaker 2: ansaras mister Freeze who's so fantastic, Marie Devon as Summer Gleeson.
Speaker 2: They just have really great casting. Like my next pick
Speaker 2: has one of my all time favorite actresses in and
Speaker 2: I always forget until I look up the show that
Speaker 2: she's one other people. Okay, so my first pick is
Speaker 2: on a similar vibe to yours. This is one that
Speaker 2: emotionally kind of guts me every time I watch it.
Speaker 2: It's called per Chance to Dream. It's written by Joe R.
Speaker 2: Lansdale who did the tell of play Laren Bright. Michael
Speaker 2: Reeves did the story directed by boy Curt Quinn. It
Speaker 2: has Adrian Barbo as catwoman Selena Kyle, which I.
Speaker 1: Love one of the best the B movie icon.
Speaker 2: Swamp thing the Fog. Just like so many movies. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I love her so much and in a very interesting
Speaker 2: I think this is such a classic smart thing you
Speaker 2: can do in animation. She voices Martha, and she voices Catwoman,
Speaker 2: and I think there's likely yes. But also Roddy McDowell
Speaker 2: is the Mad Hair, Diana Molders doctor Leslie Tompkins. So
Speaker 2: I think the fact that they have these characters like
Speaker 2: Leslie Tompkins is a key Batman character, but we've never
Speaker 2: really seen her explore in the movies. Mad Hair, that's
Speaker 2: such a random character. You're probably never going to get
Speaker 2: to see him in the movies, but animated series gives
Speaker 2: this space. And the best thing about this episode is
Speaker 2: it's just absolutely gutting and it's kind of a treatise
Speaker 2: on grief and how if we were really able to
Speaker 2: get what we wanted, would we actually sacrifice everything to
Speaker 2: keep it. So basically, Bruce wakes up in a world where.
Speaker 1: It's going through it. Yeah, he is going through.
Speaker 2: In this episode, like his parents are alive, someone else's Batman,
Speaker 2: like Alfred. There's no batcave. Alfred doesn't like. He basically
Speaker 2: wakes up and his life is perfect, but he remembers
Speaker 2: everything from the day before when his life was not
Speaker 2: idyllic like this, And obviously the name is taken from
Speaker 2: like the soliloquy from Shakespeare's Hamler, and the whole episode
Speaker 2: is him kind of trying to work out what's going on,
Speaker 2: why is he here? He starts to see things in
Speaker 2: the news, and he starts to realize, well, this isn't
Speaker 2: real life, but everyone else around him acts like it is.
Speaker 2: And there is this constant offer to him of well,
Speaker 2: if you just accept it, you can live in this
Speaker 2: happy world, like if you just isn't this what you
Speaker 2: always wanted? Like, you can do it. And eventually it
Speaker 2: is revealed, of course, after he has to kill himself
Speaker 2: by the way, which is like he has to literally
Speaker 2: jump off the belfry to his death to escape this dream,
Speaker 2: which is a very you.
Speaker 1: Know, shades of vertigo. You get this very like vertigo
Speaker 1: fight like at the end.
Speaker 2: And also we all know that the rule of like
Speaker 2: you can't die in a dream, so you know, you
Speaker 2: always wake up before you die in your dream. And
Speaker 2: he wakes up and finds out that Javistech has had
Speaker 2: him in this kind of terrifying dream machine attached to
Speaker 2: his head, and he the kind of takeaway he has
Speaker 2: is well, I did it, so if you have a
Speaker 2: good life, maybe you'd leave me alone to live my life,
Speaker 2: you know, live my life of crime. It's such a
Speaker 2: heart wrenching episode, and I just think that it would
Speaker 2: have made a beautiful comic book. But there was a
Speaker 2: freedom that they were getting in this era to tell
Speaker 2: these stories that. Imagine if you'd have pitched a story
Speaker 2: where you're like, it's just Bruce Wayne, it's not Batman,
Speaker 2: a lot of people would be like, well, why are
Speaker 2: you even making that? This is a kid's cartoon. But
Speaker 2: this utilizes the duality of Bruce and Batman and what
Speaker 2: Batman is fighting for. And also I think that there
Speaker 2: is something quite beautiful about the fact that ultimately Bruce
Speaker 2: would rather live his kind of broken real life than
Speaker 2: live in a fantasy. It's that matrix thing, right, It's like.
Speaker 1: Yes, you can accept the truth. Yeah, go back and dream.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm yeah, I love that one.
Speaker 1: What's your Name? My next pick is be where the
Speaker 1: Great Ghost? Yes, a wonderful episode. We get a flashback
Speaker 1: to a young television addicted Bruce Wayne, who is a
Speaker 1: big fan of a TV superhero program, The Great Ghost,
Speaker 1: who's this kind of like the Shadow esque crime fighter,
Speaker 1: and then there is this kind of story on top
Speaker 1: of it. We're in the modern day, there's bombs going
Speaker 1: off everywhere. Batman makes the connection that, oh, a lot
Speaker 1: of these attacks seem to be modeled after plots from
Speaker 1: The Great Ghost. So he tries to find episodes of
Speaker 1: the Gray Ghost to try and do his analysis. He
Speaker 1: can't find these particular episodes that he needs, so then
Speaker 1: he decides to track down the actor Simon Trent, who
Speaker 1: played the Grey Ghost, and the depiction of Simon Trent
Speaker 1: is like something you've never seen in a kids show,
Speaker 1: Like he is living on the margins of Society's an
Speaker 1: older guy, is completely alone. He can't pay his rent.
Speaker 1: He's selling off like his memorabilia. He's like sitting alone
Speaker 1: in his in his one bedroom apartment saying, well, I've
Speaker 1: sold enough of my stuff to pay the rent this
Speaker 1: month and then that's it, like I'm absolutely done. And
Speaker 1: so when Batman comes to him, he's like he's really
Speaker 1: stand off it. He doesn't like he doesn't want to
Speaker 1: engage with that part of his life. He's unhappy with it.
Speaker 1: But of course there's like a reproachment. He shows up
Speaker 1: in costume to help Batman solve this crime. You know,
Speaker 1: fucking Bruce. Wayne could give him five million bucks and
Speaker 1: just say like you're good now. But if he doesn't
Speaker 1: do that, that's a different for a different day. But
Speaker 1: and then there's the you know, and then I talked
Speaker 1: about like the meta commentary angle. Yeah, the voice acting
Speaker 1: is Adam West, who I mean, it's like a mirror
Speaker 1: image of his career. This is almost thirty years now
Speaker 1: when he appeared in this after his turn as Batman
Speaker 1: on the original Batman television show. And he brings a
Speaker 1: kind of melancholy to the role, a knowing melancholy that
Speaker 1: is like really affecting. And what's cool about it too,
Speaker 1: is you get to see Batman as a fan. Yes,
Speaker 1: Like Bruce is just a flat out fan of the
Speaker 1: Gray Ghost. Like and there's that weird like moment where
Speaker 1: Bruce realizes the parasocial relationship he has with the Grey
Speaker 1: Ghosts where he has like disappointing and when he first
Speaker 1: goes to visit him, he's like disappointed that the Grey
Speaker 1: Ghost like projects him. He's like, Greg Ghost is my hero.
Speaker 1: I don't know what I was thinking. You know, he
Speaker 1: like walks away and then at the end, like he
Speaker 1: rebuilds that wonderful vision of Simon Trent the Greg Ghost.
Speaker 1: But you really get to see Bruce grapple with like
Speaker 1: what it means to feel like you know somebody that
Speaker 1: you don't know because they were on television. It's really
Speaker 1: cool episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I also think that it's like so much brilliant
Speaker 2: meta text here because like a key part of why
Speaker 2: the Gray Ghost is kind of unemployed and sad is
Speaker 2: because of type costing, Like he couldn't get out the roles,
Speaker 2: and that is this really haunting kind of reference also
Speaker 2: to George Reeves, who have generally played super Man in
Speaker 2: the Superman serials in the forties, who would end up
Speaker 2: taking his own life and a lot of the reason
Speaker 2: that he struggled was because he was never able to
Speaker 2: escape playing Superman. And there's so many layers to this.
Speaker 2: I also adore the fact that the happy ending here.
Speaker 2: Look as much as I would have loved for Bruce
Speaker 2: to give him five million dollars million dollars, bro, like
Speaker 2: go to the bank, put in your piece, give him
Speaker 2: like a monthly allowance. But I do love that, as
Speaker 2: is the way with really smart TV shows. Instead we
Speaker 2: get to see that once Trent is kind of recognized
Speaker 2: not as the villain who's been doing these bombings, but
Speaker 2: as a hero who helped Batman and them they re
Speaker 2: released like all the episodes of the Gray Ghost, and
Speaker 2: then he gets money from distribution. His merchandise goes up
Speaker 2: in value of revitalized career. Kind of like you know
Speaker 2: what would happen with Mark Hamill when they would revisit
Speaker 2: the Star Wars franchise with the Force Awakens after many
Speaker 2: years of Mark being the only one who kind of
Speaker 2: kept the Star Wars love alive. Who would be going
Speaker 2: to the conventions and stuff, and even obviously Adam West
Speaker 2: and his family kind of managing to make money when
Speaker 2: CBS would or whoever now has the rights to those
Speaker 2: Batman DVDs would put them out. I just thought that
Speaker 2: was such a cool, interesting ending, but also as the
Speaker 2: best TV does as a kid actually teaches you something
Speaker 2: about the business.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it does. It was like it it's a
Speaker 1: lot more hard hitting than you would expect, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that they can do that about stuff
Speaker 2: that isn't solely about Batman. You know, this is actually
Speaker 2: hard hitting, but it's about a character before this, you've
Speaker 2: never heard of.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll be right back after a quick break.
Speaker 1: And we're back. What's your next one?
Speaker 2: Okay, so my next pick because I think this is
Speaker 2: one of those it's.
Speaker 1: Almost like this is a great episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a great episode. And also I think
Speaker 2: it's almost like a it feels almost like a fever dream,
Speaker 2: because when you're a kid, you tell on everyone, oh,
Speaker 2: have you seen the episode of you know, the but Men,
Speaker 2: the animated series where it's adapting The Dark Knight returns
Speaker 2: and everyone's like, what are you talking about? That definitely
Speaker 2: never happened. Aha, it did in the Legends of the
Speaker 2: Dark Knight, which I think is a really really clever idea.
Speaker 2: This is veering into an interesting different territory here where
Speaker 2: the show was relaunched in what I believe would be
Speaker 2: its third season as The New Batman Adventures, and it's
Speaker 2: still just as great. It's as it's basically run as
Speaker 2: like season three if you watch it now, I believe
Speaker 2: it's streaming on Amazon Prime, but basically it looks it's
Speaker 2: three kids who are reading the Gotham Gazette and they're
Speaker 2: reading about criminals and they basically kind of see they
Speaker 2: think they can see Batman in a photograph, and they
Speaker 2: start having this conversation where essentially they talk about different
Speaker 2: eras of Batman, and then it is adapted as they
Speaker 2: talk about them in the style of an old Batman comic.
Speaker 2: And you do get the most memorable thing here, and
Speaker 2: this is Bruce tim episode Robert Goodman, directed by Dan Reebar.
Speaker 2: You get this feeling here of a future of an
Speaker 2: animated series that never existed where this is all they
Speaker 2: do and it's so great. And obviously there's a girl
Speaker 2: called Carrie who's one of the people. There's a boy
Speaker 2: called Nick, a guy called Matt Anna. Matt's telling a
Speaker 2: story about his uncle and he's seeing a kind of
Speaker 2: more of like a Golden age sort of Joker and Batman,
Speaker 2: and then yeah, fifties, and then there's Nick and he
Speaker 2: kind of tells more of like a Silver age one.
Speaker 2: But obviously the one that we always remember is Carrie
Speaker 2: kind of telling this story about a girl Robin who
Speaker 2: is Carrie Kelly and how she gets to see the mutants.
Speaker 2: And it's adapted in this kind of Frank Miller esque style,
Speaker 2: which I think is really cool because even when they
Speaker 2: did adapt the Dark Knight Returns, which Warner Brothers Animation
Speaker 2: did a few years ago. They didn't adapt it in
Speaker 2: Frank Miller's style. They adapted it in a much more
Speaker 2: modern style. So here we get to kind of see
Speaker 2: these mutant leaders. We get this huge, hulking Frank Miller Batman.
Speaker 2: And while I feel like the memory of this is like, oh,
Speaker 2: it's a direct adaptation, it's not. But you do get
Speaker 2: to see the mute. It is a broadly but it's
Speaker 2: a badly beat, like like you will see it and
Speaker 2: you'll be like, how did they do this like this?
Speaker 2: And I think when I was a kid, this almost
Speaker 2: felt like it didn't exist. Like you talk about it
Speaker 2: and people be like, no, no, man.
Speaker 1: I did not see this live and it was one
Speaker 1: that I heard about and I was like, exactly do that.
Speaker 2: You're like, didn't do that. But I think this is
Speaker 2: a great example one of trusting a creative team when
Speaker 2: they do something different, because there was a lot of
Speaker 2: scandal when the New Batman Adventures came out, especially because
Speaker 2: they were adding Batgirl as like one of the main three,
Speaker 2: and but honestly, it's such a good episode. It's so
Speaker 2: much fun. It is a really cool, exciting kind of
Speaker 2: reminder of what can be done when you look directly
Speaker 2: at the comics, and I will say something I think
Speaker 2: that really stands out about and the animated series is
Speaker 2: a lot of times like Heart of Ice, I would
Speaker 2: rather that they went crazy and just changed stuff and
Speaker 2: did their own version. But occasionally if you dip your
Speaker 2: toe back in and kind of do something like this
Speaker 2: that's so interesting and so visually different and really harks
Speaker 2: back to the comics, that can be equally as good.
Speaker 2: So I think this is a really fun one and
Speaker 2: also just a great reminder that even though a lot
Speaker 2: of our picks are from the first season, which I
Speaker 2: do think is honestly a perfect season of TV, there
Speaker 2: is great stuff later on and this is This is
Speaker 2: one of my favorite episodes, and it's one that I
Speaker 2: love to show people because when you get to that
Speaker 2: Frank Miller kind of imaginary tale where they're like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is what Batman's like, everyone's like, whoa like the
Speaker 2: Dark Knight. This is so cool. It just it's definitely
Speaker 2: one of those coolest, coolest episodes.
Speaker 1: My next episode is a two parter. It is two
Speaker 1: Face parts one and two. This tells the origin story
Speaker 1: of Harvey Dent's turn to two face. The Harvey we
Speaker 1: meet is already struggling, struggling mightily with anger control issues,
Speaker 1: Like he's liable to just like pop off the drop
Speaker 1: of a hat.
Speaker 2: Actually so much, very very similar to the Harvey that
Speaker 2: we get in Cape Crusader. Actually very very similar. Yeah,
Speaker 2: a pre two faced Harvey who's still like is already there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's in the midst of a case against a
Speaker 1: mob boss, Thorn, and Thorn knows that Harvey has mental
Speaker 1: health issues and is like actively trying to exacerbate them.
Speaker 1: Harvey has been waiting for like the sting operation that's
Speaker 1: going to like get the evidence that he needs to
Speaker 1: really convict Thorn. But it turns out all to be
Speaker 1: like a setup that Thorn manipulated it, and it drives
Speaker 1: Harvey over the edge. Eventually there's a shootout like in
Speaker 1: a in a chemical factory, and there's an explosion and
Speaker 1: Harvey's face is burned. That's the end of part one.
Speaker 1: There's when you know, there's a shoot at he falls down,
Speaker 1: the electrical wires like fall on him. There's an explosion,
Speaker 1: and then Batman comes up. You don't see anything but
Speaker 1: Batman just says, oh, no, Harvey, you know it must
Speaker 1: be bad. And then there's also like a very very
Speaker 1: funny moment where the doctor is like taking the band
Speaker 1: the doctor's like there might be some scarring.
Speaker 2: But then like the medical team who removed the bandages.
Speaker 2: This very unprofessional guys. He's very unprofessional.
Speaker 1: Also, I want to say that like this is actually
Speaker 1: and I mean this I joke. I joked about this
Speaker 1: on a podcast I did with Chase six Trophies recent
Speaker 1: podcast we did about the Dark Knight movie. Oh, I
Speaker 1: joke about Harvey's gambling addiction. But like it's right up
Speaker 1: front and center. This is a guy who has a
Speaker 1: he was in the grips of a terrible, terrible gambling addiction.
Speaker 1: Like he can't stop, he can't stop. He's talking about
Speaker 1: the odds all the time. He's like, it's actually like
Speaker 1: Pemmy recovery. Yes he needs it. And then part two
Speaker 1: is Harvey's complete turn to to you know, big bad Harvey,
Speaker 1: to the dark side, to two face. He's got Henchman
Speaker 1: now you know, he's he's doing crimes. Batman meanwhile, is
Speaker 1: like just torn up over the fact that he couldn't
Speaker 1: help Harvey like he all he wants to do is help.
Speaker 1: Harvey keeps telling him like there's nothing wrong with asking
Speaker 1: for help, like we can get you help, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we can do it. You know. Eventually, Harvey captures Thorn
Speaker 1: and is going to kill him, but the good side
Speaker 1: of him pulls him back from the brink when he
Speaker 1: sees like a picture of like a regular life and
Speaker 1: like a normal like family, and he's like, oh God,
Speaker 1: and he manages to not do it, and he gets captured,
Speaker 1: and of course, you know, Bruce puts him in Arkham
Speaker 1: and then there's this really bitterscream moment where like, you know,
Speaker 1: he's looking at his friend that he's now captured, and
Speaker 1: you could feel that he's like he takes it personally
Speaker 1: that he as a personal failure that he wasn't able
Speaker 1: to help help Harvey. And there's just like a lot
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of funny stuff too, but I
Speaker 1: think it's like a very it's a shockingly nuanced depiction
Speaker 1: of like mental health issues. Yeah, a cartoon.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think they just did a really good job
Speaker 2: with bringing this to life. They do a great job
Speaker 2: with villains in this. My next pick is also a villain.
Speaker 2: But I just think that this episode showcases that like
Speaker 2: soft touch, that that kindness. Also the fact that they
Speaker 2: chose to make it a two part episode. They wanted
Speaker 2: to give it the time so you could see Harvey,
Speaker 2: you could see who he was before, you can see
Speaker 2: who he is after. And once again, it's that soft
Speaker 2: side of Batman that you were talking about, where he
Speaker 2: is kind of more devastated by the fact he couldn't
Speaker 2: help than he is by anything else that happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he doesn't like beat the shit up of Harvey.
Speaker 1: He takes his He takes his lucky coin and replaces
Speaker 1: it with a big bag of like other coins. That
Speaker 1: is the thing that like allows Harvey. Harvey just becomes
Speaker 1: like completely submerged in his own like mania at that
Speaker 1: point when he can't find his coin, that like Batman's
Speaker 1: able to scoop him up. Yeah, like without violence essentially.
Speaker 2: M Yeah, that's a really good point.
Speaker 1: Actually, we'll be right back after a quick brick and
Speaker 1: we're back. What's your next one?
Speaker 2: Okay, So my next one, which I do think is
Speaker 2: one of the most impactful episodes canonically of the series,
Speaker 2: is Holly and Ivy. This is such a great episode.
Speaker 2: I believe Paul Danny pitched it as like, well, if
Speaker 2: we did Thelma and Louise, but with Poison Ivy and
Speaker 2: Holly Quinn, I mean, who doesn't want that? Also January eighteenth,
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three, this is the first time that we
Speaker 2: get that Harley Ivy team up that now obviously has
Speaker 2: become iconic. It's become a relationship, it's spawned TV shows.
Speaker 2: I'm sure in the dream it would spawn movies, and
Speaker 2: of course it inspired comic series like Gotham City Sirens
Speaker 2: and basically like Jokers Fleeing Batman, Harley's in the driver's seat,
Speaker 2: she doesn't do what he wants, and he basically like
Speaker 2: fires her, and she's like, okay, fine, She's like I'm out,
Speaker 2: and she decides she's gonna take over from the Joker
Speaker 2: and she's gonna do a heist, and eventually she kind
Speaker 2: of gets entangled with Poison Ivy and they start to
Speaker 2: kind of team up, and as Ivy says, this could
Speaker 2: be the beginning of a beautiful friendship. And we get
Speaker 2: some really interesting law here too, because I'm sure this
Speaker 2: was just a storytelling kind of narrative trick. Because Ivy
Speaker 2: gives Harley an injection that allows her to kind of
Speaker 2: avoid it simulates like Ivy's own immunity to toxins, right,
Speaker 2: And that's so that she can just like hang out
Speaker 2: in her area. She can hang out in the Ivy layer.
Speaker 1: But she can hold she can hold the little pots,
Speaker 1: she can hold the little pods.
Speaker 2: But that in the show and in the comics becomes
Speaker 2: canon to a why Harley can survive great falls, why
Speaker 2: she has extra strength, why her and Ivy end up
Speaker 2: being so close because they have these shared powers. We
Speaker 2: also get a lot of moments that I think start
Speaker 2: to ironically years before the comics would deal with this.
Speaker 2: You're talking about almost twenty years before the comics would
Speaker 2: deal with this. Ivy tells Harley off, She's like the
Speaker 2: Joker's an abuser. You got to leave him, Like, what
Speaker 2: the point of this? No, he's not he's a great guy.
Speaker 2: Or he's a great guy.
Speaker 1: Am I am I a pushover?
Speaker 2: Also, this is old school Harley, which means you have
Speaker 2: Arlene Sorkin voicing Harley. Arlene Sorkin who was the inspiration
Speaker 2: for Harley Quinn after Bruce tim saw an episode of
Speaker 2: the old sitcom she was in where she was dressed
Speaker 2: as a clown. And then they got Arleene Sorkin to
Speaker 2: it during like a dream sequence, and they got Arleene
Speaker 2: Sorkin to come and voice Harley, so you're getting that
Speaker 2: old school Harley. And there's a great moment where at
Speaker 2: the end when they're kind of fleeing Thelma and Louise
Speaker 2: style poison Ivy says she's like, no man can take
Speaker 2: us prisoner. And then Rene Montoya, who is a woman,
Speaker 2: she disables their car and they get sent to Arkham Asylum,
Speaker 2: you know, and this is, yeah, it's just so good.
Speaker 2: It sets up I think this antagonism, this friendship, this
Speaker 2: romance that probably at this point a lot of fans
Speaker 2: hadn't even really considered, and it is a massive reset
Speaker 2: for both characters. It continues on, especially in New Batman Adventures.
Speaker 2: They do a lot of uh, kind of back together
Speaker 2: episodes with the par of them. But it's really, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just I think it's such a great episode and
Speaker 2: so hugely influential, huge on the comics.
Speaker 1: My it's a great lead in for my next one,
Speaker 1: which is Joker's Favor, which, of course first the introduction
Speaker 1: of Harley Quinn in a pre Harley Quinn kind of look.
Speaker 1: She's more just kind of like jokers lead assistant slash Henchy.
Speaker 1: It's got such a fun opening, Like there's this just
Speaker 1: normal citizen of Gotham who's like having a road rage.
Speaker 1: It's like driving around when he like has a road
Speaker 1: rate incident against the Joker, who also is just driving
Speaker 1: around like a like a station wagon with with his
Speaker 1: like luggage upped up. I guess he was like going
Speaker 1: to the like out of town to go like relax.
Speaker 1: The guy sees that it's a joker and tries to flee,
Speaker 1: but the Joker catches him and is like, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna kill you, but I'm going to ask you
Speaker 1: for a favor. You know, at some point he's going
Speaker 1: to come back and he's gonna say and he's gonna say,
Speaker 1: you owe me, so you have to do this thing.
Speaker 1: And years pass in which this guy Charlie is like
Speaker 1: like on edge wondering when's the fucking Joker gonna come back?
Speaker 2: So scary.
Speaker 1: Yes, Well, the Joker shows back up years later and
Speaker 1: he wants Charlie's help taking down Commisser Gordon at like
Speaker 1: a big party at the police station. Uh, Charlie doesn't
Speaker 1: want to do it, but like he does it, and
Speaker 1: the plan involves the Joker inside of a cake showing
Speaker 1: up at this party. You know, Batman shows up too.
Speaker 1: There's like a little bit of a scuffle. The Joke,
Speaker 1: with Harley's help, manages to like subdue all of the
Speaker 1: police notables, including Commissioner Gordon. They hang like a time
Speaker 1: bomb around like Commissioner Gordon's neck, but Batman manages to
Speaker 1: do away with that, chases down the Joker. They have
Speaker 1: this big fight like in this museum wonderful museum exhibit
Speaker 1: that like comes to life, and at the end of it,
Speaker 1: of course, Batman takes a Joker in and Charlie is
Speaker 1: able to like live a life feeling secure now that
Speaker 1: the Joker has been put away. It's just like a
Speaker 1: it's just a wonderful, action packed episode. Like there's really
Speaker 1: like a lot of really cool fun set pieces, and
Speaker 1: it shows you because the Joker is played as really
Speaker 1: fun for a lot of the series, but I think
Speaker 1: he's so in this one, even though there's that kind
Speaker 1: of light hearted edge, because he's like really putting Charlie
Speaker 1: through it. For years. This guy's fearing for his life
Speaker 1: for his family's life. At one point, the Joker's like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill your family, like if you don't help me.
Speaker 1: And it's so twisted and really evil of the Joker,
Speaker 1: and it's that's something I really love about it, in
Speaker 1: addition to, of course the fact that it's a landmark
Speaker 1: episode because of the introduction of Harley Quinn, who is
Speaker 1: now a major character for DC Comics, both in the
Speaker 1: movies and television and in the comics themselves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and one of the few times that we've ever
Speaker 2: had a character who has introduced in animation that comes
Speaker 2: over and becomes like, I mean, they call her the
Speaker 2: fourth Pillar of DC. Now, along Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman,
Speaker 2: it's Harlee. You know, that who gets the TV shows,
Speaker 2: that who gets her own movies. That's she always has
Speaker 2: an ongoing series. And she was written as a throwaway
Speaker 2: character here, kind of something fun and different to do
Speaker 2: for a henchman, but instead she became so beloved that
Speaker 2: they had to keep her on and I just think
Speaker 2: it's so cool and also as well, this is just
Speaker 2: a great episode. I mean, you could do we could
Speaker 2: do a whole episode of X ray where we just
Speaker 2: talk about Joker episodes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it so brilliant, Mark Campbell, I love
Speaker 1: the Joker. He's wonderful.
Speaker 2: And my next episode is a Jokeer episode, which is
Speaker 2: this is this is the one I watch every year
Speaker 2: at Christmas. It's part of my Christmas watching that I
Speaker 2: always do to get myself in the spirit of things,
Speaker 2: including the Star Wars Holiday Special, which is you know, terrible,
Speaker 2: This is not terrible, this is wonderful. And this was
Speaker 2: like I think the second episode ever of the show,
Speaker 2: depending on air date, run time that you watch. And
Speaker 2: this is the first appearance of the Joker with Mark
Speaker 2: Hamill obviously legendary and he would go on to like
Speaker 2: voice the Joke movies in video games, also Dick Grayson's
Speaker 2: first appearance in the series, and basically like it's so
Speaker 2: good because Joker escapes from Arkhamosilum using a rocket hidden
Speaker 2: inside a Christmas the tree. So love the theming, Like
Speaker 2: he's always he's always on theme. He's like, it's Christmas, guys,
Speaker 2: we gotta gotta make this fun. So Batman forces Robin
Speaker 2: to go outside and you know, be on the streets
Speaker 2: of Gotham patrolling, and Robin just wants to stay home
Speaker 2: and enjoy Christmas, which you know, I can relate. He
Speaker 2: wants to get into the spirit of things. Alfred would
Speaker 2: probably also rather that. But they go out and it's like, wow,
Speaker 2: perfect Gotham night, peaceful, no problems. Where's the Joker, don't know,
Speaker 2: Let's just go home. They're like, let's just go home
Speaker 2: and watch TV. Let's just watch It's a wonderful life. Alas,
Speaker 2: the Joker is revealed has like taken over the Gotham
Speaker 2: airwaves and he's gonna do a Christmas special featuring all
Speaker 2: these different people that he's kidnapp commissioned.
Speaker 1: Special is so great. He's he's in shadow, He's like
Speaker 1: laying on the Mandela and then like the lights colored Joker.
Speaker 2: It's like really old school, like Disney, those Wonderful World
Speaker 2: of Disney specials, that what Disney used to do. And
Speaker 2: this is like a truly epic episode where you also
Speaker 2: get this outrageous like Christmas toy massacre kind of like
Speaker 2: there's there's Donner and Blitzen and they have machine guns.
Speaker 2: And I just want to say, for whatever people have
Speaker 2: issues with the Joker. Is he a sociopath?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Is he crazy? Yes? Is he always killing people. Yes.
Speaker 2: Should the Batman probably have put him out of his
Speaker 2: misery a long time ago, Yes, But one thing I
Speaker 2: will say that Man he commits to a theme, like
Speaker 2: everything in this is the most Christmas themed villainy. He
Speaker 2: must have been planning this for like years, years and
Speaker 2: years and years and years. And he's also bringing some
Speaker 2: of the old school Joker things you want to see,
Speaker 2: like he's hanging people over a vat of like molten plastic,
Speaker 2: which kind of is akin to the acid. It's just
Speaker 2: so much fun that I can watch this episode a
Speaker 2: million times. It definitely gives me a feeling of when
Speaker 2: I watched it, like as a kid. Also at Christmas
Speaker 2: and Batman are intrinsically connected to me because one of
Speaker 2: my first memories, probably from when I was about two
Speaker 2: years old, is watching the scene where the Jack Nicholson
Speaker 2: Joker falls in the acid when I was like two
Speaker 2: at my uncle's house where they we must have been
Speaker 2: having a family Christmas and I was sitting and I
Speaker 2: was watching it in the reflection of the window. So
Speaker 2: I love Batman, I love Christmas. And eventually Dick Grayson
Speaker 2: and Bruce Wayne do get to go and enjoy it's
Speaker 2: a wonderful life and it is. It manages to be
Speaker 2: both action packed and super cozy and kind of holiday
Speaker 2: ish thanks to the wonderful work of The Joker and
Speaker 2: obviously super seminole, because Mark Hamill as the Joker is
Speaker 2: one of the best castings of all.
Speaker 1: He sings, he sings jingle bells.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's singing deck the Holes and at the
Speaker 2: end he's just like Merry Christmas, Like Merry Christmas. And
Speaker 2: you know this sets up how much he loves to
Speaker 2: be having fun with Batman, Like those two just love
Speaker 2: to be playing with each other and doing these kind of.
Speaker 1: Sick relationship that is not a it's kind of a
Speaker 1: warm one. That leads me to my next episode, Joker's Wild. Now,
Speaker 1: watching this Joker is like the Michael Jordan of escaping
Speaker 1: from Arkham. Oh he he never can do it. He
Speaker 1: can do it at will.
Speaker 2: A Christmas tree and a rocket like That's that already
Speaker 2: is setting him up as the MVP of escaping.
Speaker 1: Never dare him to escape Arkham, because he will. So
Speaker 1: in this episode, the Joker's like sitting around Arkham. He's
Speaker 1: watching TV with other I think Mad Hatter is there
Speaker 1: and like They're just like sitting on the couch watching television,
Speaker 1: and there's a news report that a new casino is open.
Speaker 1: It's called Jokers Wild, and it very very clearly infringes
Speaker 1: on the Joker's trademark look and is you know, quite
Speaker 1: clearly trading on the notoriety of the Joker in order
Speaker 1: to draw people in. And the owner of the casino,
Speaker 1: Cameron Kaiser, is it publicly He's like, no, what I
Speaker 1: mean clowns. Clowns are popular, and jokers in the deca
Speaker 1: cod multiple jokers in there. What are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Just the reference to the Joker on the deck, And
Speaker 1: but like privately he's like, yeah, I want to provoke
Speaker 1: the I want to provoke the Joker to attacking my
Speaker 1: casino so I can get the insurance. Well, the Joker
Speaker 1: sees this TV report and becomes fucking enraged and he
Speaker 1: breaks out of Arkham that minute in a multi pronged,
Speaker 1: like very elaborate escape attempt. He does it, no problem.
Speaker 1: He gets there, and then he realizes at the casino
Speaker 1: that oh wait, this is what he wants. This is
Speaker 1: what Kaiser wants. He wants me to wreck the place instead.
Speaker 1: I'm going to seize ownership of casino from this guy.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be the owner of the casino. Batman shows up.
Speaker 1: You know, there's like the Joker is doing all sorts
Speaker 1: of shit. He's like making it obvious that the game's
Speaker 1: are rigged. He's like terrorizing people, He's like driving cars
Speaker 1: through the fucking bedding floor and stuff. And eventually, of
Speaker 1: course Batman takes not just the Joker down, but also
Speaker 1: Kaiser for the insurance fraud. And it's great because this
Speaker 1: is it's a cool trick that this show does a lot,
Speaker 1: because even though the Joker is nominally the antagonist of
Speaker 1: the show, and I just got done talking about an
Speaker 1: episode previously where the Joker is purely evil bastard who
Speaker 1: tortures a guy for multiple years, he's also like kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, silently like the co lead.
Speaker 4: Of the show.
Speaker 1: And so they've created this episode where the there's a
Speaker 1: different bad guy. The bad guy is this guy Kaiser, who,
Speaker 1: if he had not provoked the Joker, would have the
Speaker 1: Joker would have remained in Arkham yea. And so it's
Speaker 1: this really cool balancing act that they do because you
Speaker 1: actually you're thrilled when the Joker escapes from Arkham. You
Speaker 1: want to see him confront Kaiser. It's fun to watch
Speaker 1: him like driving his Joker buggy through the fucking casino floor.
Speaker 2: I think this is a really really smart thing you've
Speaker 2: picked up on because this is a Pauldini episode. My
Speaker 2: next pick is also a Paul Deanie written episode. This
Speaker 2: man can write a villain so well, and I think
Speaker 2: it's why the Rogues Gallery sings in this and specifically
Speaker 2: the Joker, and something I'd love about jokers wild In
Speaker 2: a lot of shows, they would be like, well, the
Speaker 2: villain is popular and Batman is popular, so we'll have
Speaker 2: to have them team up. But you can't team up
Speaker 2: Batman and the Joker. It's just it doesn't work. So
Speaker 2: I love that they introduce a different antagonist so that
Speaker 2: you can follow the Joker as if he is the protagonist.
Speaker 5: We're going to take a quick break and we'll be
Speaker 5: right back, and we're back, okay.
Speaker 2: My last pick is going back to the kind of
Speaker 2: more recognized, beloved episodes. This is called Almost Got Them.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, written by Paul Deini again. It's another Rogues
Speaker 2: episode directed by Eric Radomski, and it just is so
Speaker 2: good where it's basically Killer Croc, Penguin, Catwoman, Poison Ivy,
Speaker 2: the Joker, and they meet a pocon night, like a
Speaker 2: villain's pocon night, Like who's putting up the flyer for that?
Speaker 2: Like how does this happen? And you have, by the way,
Speaker 2: Paul Williams as Penguin aka like multiple award winning songwriter
Speaker 2: the man who wrote The Rainbow Connection and all the
Speaker 2: songs of Bugsy Malone. Paul Williams as the Penguin, Aaron
Speaker 2: Kinkaid's Killer Croc, obviously Adrian Bobo's Catwoman. It is such
Speaker 2: a smart idea for an episode, and it's another reason
Speaker 2: why this show is so fantastic. It's like a dialogue
Speaker 2: episode where they all just talk about times they almost
Speaker 2: caught Batman. So you get that kind of anthology of
Speaker 2: different experiences, but you also get this hilariously like almost
Speaker 2: like mundane view of what it's like to live in
Speaker 2: Gotham and be trying to defeat Batman every day, Like
Speaker 2: it becomes your day job.
Speaker 1: It's That's what I That's what I was gonna say.
Speaker 1: This is like a it becomes it's like a workplace
Speaker 1: contra episode. It's just like the the villains that work
Speaker 1: at Gotham are just complaining about this guy and all
Speaker 1: the times they almost defeated him, And there's something so
Speaker 1: fun about that. I just I love hangout episodes. I've
Speaker 1: talked about it a lot on this show. And there's
Speaker 1: just something about the idea that all the villains, the
Speaker 1: top villains would get together and have like a cards
Speaker 1: night where they're just all sitting around sharing war stories.
Speaker 1: There's something really like that's fun to me.
Speaker 2: I love. Yeah. Also, it's like a hilarious It has
Speaker 2: like a hilarious twist at the end where you're also
Speaker 2: like Batman, like what's wrong with you? Like once again,
Speaker 2: like get a fucking life, like please, like you just
Speaker 2: he's just such a silly man. And I kind of
Speaker 2: love how this episode plays on that by showing that
Speaker 2: even when these people are just kind of having their
Speaker 2: office comedy and chilling out, Batman has to get involved,
Speaker 2: Like they can't have a night off. He always has
Speaker 2: to be there trying to save Gotham and defeat these
Speaker 2: villains even when they're just chilling and reminiscing. Yeah, this
Speaker 2: is like such a good one. And it also this
Speaker 2: is one of those ones where if you're in the
Speaker 2: comic shop or you know, you're hanging out with your friends.
Speaker 2: There's some fun contradictions here where you try and kind
Speaker 2: of work out if they're like connections, or there are
Speaker 2: these kind of teasers to other episodes, or what works
Speaker 2: and what doesn't work and how it fits, and yeah,
Speaker 2: it's just I love this episode and it was a
Speaker 2: really fun example of the kind of out there thinking
Speaker 2: when it comes to a kid's cartoon where every week
Speaker 2: has to be the monster of the week, which we
Speaker 2: love those stories, Scooby Doo, legendary, kind of fun, succinct
Speaker 2: kids storytelling. This approaches storytelling more like a prestige TV show,
Speaker 2: and I think that's one of the reasons that it
Speaker 2: has stayed so fresh and so impactful. And why you know,
Speaker 2: thirty years later, we have a TV series, The Cape Crusader,
Speaker 2: that is a spiritual successor to this, that's like the
Speaker 2: number one show on Prime Video.
Speaker 1: Coming up, we're turning to the back matter with some
Speaker 1: special friends of the podcast. Okay, we're asking folks this
Speaker 1: little questionnaire about Batman, so we might as well ask ourselves.
Speaker 1: I like that five questions. First of all, Rosie, what
Speaker 1: makes Batman in animation so compelling.
Speaker 2: I think freedom to bring the world of Gotham and
Speaker 2: Batman and his villains to life in a way that
Speaker 2: you probably couldn't do in live action.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's that, and I will add that
Speaker 1: it's also provides an opportunity to engage with these kind
Speaker 1: of traditional old timey kind of storytelling spaces the forties
Speaker 1: the fifties in a way that feels current. You can
Speaker 1: use these as a touchdown and that can frame what
Speaker 1: you're doing in this wonderful way. There's just so much
Speaker 1: freedom to create a vibe and a tone in animation,
Speaker 1: and Batman is all about that tone. It never has
Speaker 1: to be daytime, and even when it's daytime, it can
Speaker 1: look like nighttime. All of that stuff. Second question, in
Speaker 1: your opinion, how to Batman the animated series alter Batman's
Speaker 1: place in superhero history.
Speaker 2: I think it provided a renewed younger audience that wasn't
Speaker 2: necessarily being catered to by Batman Returns, a movie I
Speaker 2: love and loved as a kid, but for some kids
Speaker 2: it was quite scary. It wasn't seen as toyetic, it
Speaker 2: was hard to market it to kids. I think this
Speaker 2: opened a door to a younger audience, staying engaged with Batman,
Speaker 2: while ironically also becoming the definitive version of Batman for
Speaker 2: a lot of adults. I think Batman animated series also
Speaker 2: deeply secured the idea of Gotham as almost a steam
Speaker 2: punk Dirigibles in the Sky, constant noir. I think that
Speaker 2: version of Gotham still hangs heavy over everything we do.
Speaker 2: And obviously I also think that Batman in animated history
Speaker 2: essentially gets to generally say that's the best animated series
Speaker 2: we've ever gotten, you know, and I love a lot
Speaker 2: of different animated series. We've been blessed with lots of
Speaker 2: superho and comic book animated series. But I think for
Speaker 2: a lot of adults, a lot of people our age
Speaker 2: until this new era of say Invincible, this kind of
Speaker 2: Western adult animation, for a long time, Batman was still
Speaker 2: the standard bear for what you could do with a
Speaker 2: comic book.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I agree with everything you said. I don't have
Speaker 1: much to add other than to say I think most importantly,
Speaker 1: and you touched on it, it was handing off Batman
Speaker 1: to another generation of young fans and distilling the the
Speaker 1: dynamics of Gotham City and the relationships between Batman, Alfred
Speaker 1: Robin and his rogues gallery down into a form that
Speaker 1: young fans could really grasp onto and immediately understand who
Speaker 1: these characters are. I think that was really important.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Question three, what is the series' most significant contribution to
Speaker 1: the comics.
Speaker 2: I think that, as we talked about in our conversation,
Speaker 2: there are a lot. I think that you picked a
Speaker 2: great one with Heart of Ice. I do think that
Speaker 2: changed everything for Victor Freeze. But I think, obviously I'm
Speaker 2: sure this is what all of our guests are going
Speaker 2: to say, it's Harlequin. That was a game changer to
Speaker 2: have a character who is meant to be a throwaway
Speaker 2: hensch who ended up becoming so popular that they transitioned
Speaker 2: her into the comics and who is now, you know,
Speaker 2: a cultural zeitgeist in her own right. She has her
Speaker 2: own movie, she has her multiple cartoon shows, she has
Speaker 2: a spin off of her cartoon show. She has stuff
Speaker 2: that's for kids, she has stuff that's for adults. She's
Speaker 2: been in Injustice, she's been in The Batman Arkham Games.
Speaker 2: I think that is and she is still one of
Speaker 2: the best sellers in comics to this day. So I
Speaker 2: think it's Harlequin.
Speaker 1: I'll seem out for my answer. I think it's it's
Speaker 1: showing that good ideas can come from anywhere in I
Speaker 1: love that the storytelling space and that if you have
Speaker 1: something that that sticks that originated in TV animated to you,
Speaker 1: it doesn't even be live action TV, it could be
Speaker 1: any come from anywhere, then you should run with them.
Speaker 1: And I think it's something that is it's proof positive
Speaker 1: that a good idea just sticks, and that if you
Speaker 1: have a great character inanimated, once the fans do the
Speaker 1: thing that you want them to do, which is start
Speaker 1: watching the live action, when you start picking up the
Speaker 1: comic books, they're gonna they're gonna say, where is this character?
Speaker 1: Why isn't this character here? And it's a natural way
Speaker 1: to launch a character.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Final question, what do you think the legacy of Batman
Speaker 1: the animated series overall?
Speaker 2: I think we've touched on a lot and I really
Speaker 2: like your kind of big picture answer. I will say,
Speaker 2: just because we haven't really talked about him, I do
Speaker 2: think one of the legacies, and definitely now that he
Speaker 2: has sadly passed away, I do think it is Kevin Colmroy.
Speaker 2: Batman is like a definitive legacy. Not only that, but
Speaker 2: introducing us to Kevin Conroy, his performance as Batman becoming
Speaker 2: so definitive for so many of us. Also, I think
Speaker 2: part and parcel of that is as young people understanding
Speaker 2: what voice acting is. You know, you have Mark Hamill
Speaker 2: from Star Wars, He's the Joker, so you start thinking like, oh,
Speaker 2: doing voices, like that's a job. Kevin Comray for so
Speaker 2: many years people would say that's the best Batman. I
Speaker 2: think Kevin Comray is a huge part of this legacy,
Speaker 2: especially as he later shared with us that he was
Speaker 2: also a queer man who had found, you know, a
Speaker 2: voice through Batman and a place to be able to
Speaker 2: live and be free as himself. I just think that
Speaker 2: Kevin Comray, his importance and his part of the Batman
Speaker 2: legacy cannot be ignored. So for this one, I'll say
Speaker 2: Kevin Comray.
Speaker 1: For me, it's animated as a strength for DC as
Speaker 1: a media corporation. I think this this established DC as
Speaker 1: a place where vibrant, hard hitting, emotionally resonant stories are
Speaker 1: told and adapted from comics and told in animated form.
Speaker 1: And as you know, in this era of live action
Speaker 1: comic book movies as DC, to be fair to them,
Speaker 1: has played ketchup a lot of the time. They've been
Speaker 1: leading for all of this time, and it is a massive, massive, Yes,
Speaker 1: it's a massive strength for the company and it has
Speaker 1: been ever since Batman the animated series totally What makes
Speaker 1: Batman in animation so compelling, I.
Speaker 3: Think I think the thing about Batman is that you
Speaker 3: ironically want to hide as much of them as you can,
Speaker 3: because he's honestly a dude. It's with like funny little
Speaker 3: pointy ears on where's a very you know ghost cape,
Speaker 3: you know, like, but in animation, like suddenly the shape
Speaker 3: of him gets to be different, and it's the thing
Speaker 3: they did in Batman and animate series all the time,
Speaker 3: the cloak dynamics of like sometimes he looks like a
Speaker 3: priest where it's all the way down the middle. Sometimes
Speaker 3: it's the giant silhouette of a bat Sometimes it has
Speaker 3: no physics to it anymore because it just gets to
Speaker 3: be somewhat abstract. And you can't do that in live action,
Speaker 3: you know, live action, it's it's too real. And Batman
Speaker 3: is honestly a character that wants to defy reality, and
Speaker 3: I think animation ends up being the perfect medium for him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, with that in mind, kind of in your opinion,
Speaker 2: this is a big question, but how do you think
Speaker 2: Batman the Animated Series altered Batman's place in the kind
Speaker 2: of superhero canon because it really did have that much
Speaker 2: of an impact.
Speaker 3: It had that much of an impact, and I think
Speaker 3: ironically what it did was it for as serious as
Speaker 3: Tim Burton's Batman film was in nineteen eighty nine, Batman
Speaker 3: the Animated Series took the character and took the world
Speaker 3: like it was dickenzie and drama, like it was never
Speaker 3: a joke to them. Yeah, you know. And when you
Speaker 3: get episodes like Heart of Ice, which suddenly makes mister
Speaker 3: Freeze this this tragic hero of his own story, it
Speaker 3: never took it as ironically, it never took it as
Speaker 3: children's entertainment, and not that that is a pejorative in
Speaker 3: terms of children's entertainment, but the themes were so rich,
Speaker 3: the attack on the characters were so rich. It imbued
Speaker 3: everything with a dignity that it had never had before
Speaker 3: in a medium that had never really given him that
Speaker 3: much play like he's a super friend, you guys, you know,
Speaker 3: and like, but now Batman, Bruce Wayne and the tire
Speaker 3: Rogues Gallery just has this heft that it had never
Speaker 3: had before, and that heft is what has now survived
Speaker 3: through every other iteration to it, like now it's it's Deckenzie,
Speaker 3: and now it's Shakespearean, or it had never really been
Speaker 3: before Batman the animated series.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the show had a huge impact on the comics
Speaker 1: in many different ways, esthetically thematically. What do you think
Speaker 1: the series' most significant contribution to the comic books has been?
Speaker 3: I think, you know, and I will relish in the
Speaker 3: fact that I'm the first person you're asking this question to.
Speaker 3: Harley Quinn is probably the biggest significant contribution that came
Speaker 3: directly from the animated series and has since just proliferated
Speaker 3: through every iteration of Batman ever since, to the point
Speaker 3: where we have a freaking Joker movie coming out that
Speaker 3: is just all about Joker and Harley. You know, I
Speaker 3: think it was It's it's that I mean Hardy, of course,
Speaker 3: I think it's the Joker, you know. I think Mark
Speaker 3: Hamill's Joker is the Joker people hear in their heads
Speaker 3: in the way that Kevin Conroy's Batman is the Batman
Speaker 3: they hear in their heads. Yeah, you know, and so
Speaker 3: the fact that it just sort of set those templates
Speaker 3: so incredibly strongly, you know that that I feel like
Speaker 3: that stuff and the Harley stuff are the the constant,
Speaker 3: pervasive influences of that show.
Speaker 2: And obviously this is kind of an ever moving question
Speaker 2: because legacy continues, and the legacy of the show is
Speaker 2: not over by any means. But what do you feel
Speaker 2: like the legacy of Batman the Animated Series is right now? Like,
Speaker 2: now that we're here in twenty twenty four, what do
Speaker 2: you feel like the biggest legacy of the show is.
Speaker 3: I think it was it was both faith in the
Speaker 3: character and believing that something as inherently silly as Batman
Speaker 3: deserve to be treated as well as it did. You know,
Speaker 3: I think the amount of care and craftsmanship that when
Speaker 3: it's a Batman the Animated Series is somewhat unlike any
Speaker 3: animated show that had come before, at least American animated shows,
Speaker 3: to the point where now we're living in this sort
Speaker 3: of golden age of animation. You know that that that spans,
Speaker 3: you know, both both audience and content type and creation
Speaker 3: type and country of origin. Like I think a lot
Speaker 3: of that we're taking animation seriously begins with Batman, the
Speaker 3: animated series, you know, begins with with the kind of
Speaker 3: like Alex Toff inspired character design, and they like the deep,
Speaker 3: like the weird noir of what that Gotham city was like,
Speaker 3: and the fluidity with time and space that that had,
Speaker 3: the the we could kind of do anything and then
Speaker 3: did do anything.
Speaker 2: It.
Speaker 3: I think it inspired lots of artists to be like, oh,
Speaker 3: what if I did this with this character? What if
Speaker 3: I gave this level of integrity and rigor to he Man?
Speaker 3: What if we did that with Shira, What if we
Speaker 3: did that with you know, name it like ThunderCats, Like
Speaker 3: things that had previously been sort of relegated to the
Speaker 3: sort of dust bin of juvenility. That's a word began
Speaker 3: to be reclaimed as like, you know what, it can
Speaker 3: be for us, for always. And so I think that
Speaker 3: that something like Batman kpe Crusader is just the latest
Speaker 3: in that long line of like this can always be
Speaker 3: for us, you know, we don't have to give it
Speaker 3: up when we get older. We don't have to put
Speaker 3: away childish things because they were never childish to begin with.
Speaker 3: And I think I think there's something there's something kind
Speaker 3: of phenomenal about what you know, Bruce tim and Alan
Speaker 3: Burnett and Paul Deny and like that whole crew managed
Speaker 3: to pull together Lightning in a bottle that then just
Speaker 3: sparked everybody's imagination for decades to come.
Speaker 1: Okay, here's the here's the real hard question. Your ultimate
Speaker 1: Batman the Animated series episode.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'd be a knucklehead if I didn't say
Speaker 3: Heart of Ice. You know it's it's I had. I
Speaker 3: had never given mister Freeze a second thought because he
Speaker 3: was so silly. He was always silly, Like you know,
Speaker 3: is it do with a with a with a snow
Speaker 3: cone machine on his back? Who diamonds? You know, Like
Speaker 3: I've never been quite so disappointed as like going to
Speaker 3: see Batman and Robin and being like, this is how
Speaker 3: you're going to basterdize the heart of vice story? Like
Speaker 3: come on, what's an negger? Like I know what you're
Speaker 3: trying to do, but like it's you couldn't get there.
Speaker 3: But that level of pathos for a character who had
Speaker 3: been a joke is so endemic of what that show
Speaker 3: could do. And the love that everybody who made that
Speaker 3: show had for these characters was just like, yeah, you
Speaker 3: know what we are going to make you cry over
Speaker 3: the villain in a Batman story. And if you can
Speaker 3: pull that off, then that is a very specific magic
Speaker 3: trick that I think so many of us are trying
Speaker 3: to replicate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the end of that episode is just its heartbreak.
Speaker 1: You do not see coming.
Speaker 3: It's heartbreaking and like power to you, guys. You made
Speaker 3: me cry a thing I never thought i'd cry at,
Speaker 3: which is a Batman.
Speaker 1: Cartoon mark next of your time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh my pleasure, gang, this is a.
Speaker 2: Blast stoke to have you back. On tomorrow's episode of
Speaker 2: X ray Vision, we're diving into episode two or four
Speaker 2: of The Rings of Power, including a wonderful interview with
Speaker 2: EP Jennifer Hutchinson. Then on Tuesday, check out a very
Speaker 2: special video game episode where we'll be covering all the
Speaker 2: news updates and of course Star Wars Outlaws. Friday, we're
Speaker 2: continuing Animation Month with a special time capsule episode on
Speaker 2: Miyazaki's latest film, The Boy and the Heron.
Speaker 1: X ray Vision is hosted by Jason Ken, Sumpsion and
Speaker 1: Rosie Knight and is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our
Speaker 1: executive producers are Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our Supervising
Speaker 1: producer is a Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen Laurent
Speaker 1: and Mia Taylor. Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Laude, Kenny Goodman
Speaker 2: and Heidi. Our discoored Moderata