WEBVTT - Special Episode: Mary Roach & Fuzz 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:47.120 Hi, I'm Aaron Welsh and this is this podcast will 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:51.519 Kill You. Welcome everyone to the latest installment of the 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:56.320 tp w k Y Book Club, my absolute favorite club 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:00.400 where we get to read fascinating popular science book and 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.200 then chat with the authors of those books. We've gotten 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.320 to talk about why we saw COVID coming yet we're 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.759 not able to stop it, whether sweat could be used 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:14.800 as evidence in a criminal investigation, what the public image 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.200 makeover of Neanderthals has to do with race science, and 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.520 how uterus pancakes can help us communicate more clearly about menstruation. 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.640 It's been so much fun so far, and I hope 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:29.800 you all are enjoying these as much as I am. 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:33.480 And it just keeps getting better because this episode I'll 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:37.280 be chatting with one of the best and inarguably the 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:41.759 funniest science writers out there, the one and only Mary Roach. 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.960 Whether she's covering what happens to cadavers after they get 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:49.600 donated to science in her book Stiff, The Science of 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:54.080 Sex in Bonk, how space travel affects all aspects of 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:57.720 human life and packing from Mars, or any of the 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:00.720 other topics covered in her other best soefe and award 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:06.600 winning books, Roach strikes that delicate balance between engaging and educational, 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:12.680 all while being human and gut bustingly hilarious. Seriously, if 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:15.040 you haven't read any of her books before, you should 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.680 go get them all. You'll thank me later. In today's episode, though, 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:21.920 Roach Joins made a chat not about cadavers or the 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:26.600 alimentary canal, but about her latest book, fuzz When Nature 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:30.960 Breaks the Law, published in twenty twenty one. Human wildlife 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.359 conflict can come in all shapes and sizes, from charismatic 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:42.080 megafauna doing uncharismatic things like elephants destroying property or leopards 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:47.320 attacking people, to less flashy incidents like goals destroying flowers 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:53.000 quote unquote danger trees exploding well dangerously, or that deer 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.160 in your headlights. You may have even been involved in 0:02:56.280 --> 0:03:00.160 human wildlife conflict at some point yourself. I, for one, 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.919 have been attacked by dive bombing birds while on a 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:06.840 run with forehead scratches. To prove it, I've had to 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:09.480 dash back to the truck when a herd of elephants 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:13.079 made a sudden appearance during tick sampling. And I've been 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:15.760 rushed by Canada geese on a walk around the park 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:18.480 to this day, the sight of a goose on the 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.640 path in front of me sends my heart racing. And 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:24.079 those are just the vertebrate examples I can think of. 0:03:24.280 --> 0:03:28.120 Don't get me started on wasps and acacia ants and cockroaches. 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:32.600 The way we often frame these adverse encounters with wildlife 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:36.440 is by placing ourselves humans in the role of victim 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.600 and the animal in the role of aggressor. I just 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:41.960 did it in the examples I gave, and I did 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:45.440 it without even thinking. But is that really the case? 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.240 Was I attacked by a dive bombing bird or did 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:53.000 I get unknowingly too close to the bird's nest, prompting 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:57.040 it to defend itself. Do bears break into dumpsters and 0:03:57.080 --> 0:04:00.720 wreak havoc? Or did humans destroy what used to be 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:04.920 bare habitat and place dumpsters there as an unintentionally reliable 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:08.720 food source. The bottom line is that these animals are 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:12.640 breaking laws that they don't know exist, and since we 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:16.760 humans created those laws, we also have the responsibility to 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:19.919 find a way to enforce them or adjust them in 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:23.880 ways that minimize harm to both humans and wildlife as 0:04:23.960 --> 0:04:28.240 much as possible. Part of this involves changing the narrative 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:33.719 around human wildlife conflict, maybe reconsidering the roles of wildlife 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:37.440 as perpetrator and human as victim, or at the very 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.520 least acknowledging the part that we play in creating this conflict, 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:45.279 and part of it is, from a practical standpoint, how 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.799 to limit the conflict in the first place, which includes 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:53.760 encouraging humans to change a notoriously difficult task, and how 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:58.919 to humanly diffuse a situation. In fuzz Mary Roach takes 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:02.400 readers on a why wild ride through the incredibly varied 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:06.800 field of human wildlife conflict, with stopovers in Reno, Nevada, 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:11.120 where a wildlife attack crime scene forensics conference is held. 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.919 Downtown Aspen, Colorado, where breaking and entering bears are a 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.839 common occurrence. Delhi, India, where a roach herself has a 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.760 close encounter with one of the many macaques in the city. 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.840 Vancouver Island, where danger trees live up to their name, 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:33.040 the Vatican, where bird scaring is taken incredibly seriously, New Zealand, 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.360 where the humaneness of different rodent traps is considered, and 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:42.200 so many other places, because human wildlife conflict is of 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.400 course found wherever there are humans, and it has existed 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:50.320 as long as humans have been around. Over time, our 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.479 methods of dealing with conflict have changed substantially, as have 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:59.600 our attitudes towards the troublesome wildlife. In fuzz, Roach takes 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.680 her READI through space and time, exploring a bit of 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.960 the history of the field of human wildlife conflict, and 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:11.320 touring the globally diverse mitigation methods and mindsets towards these encounters. 0:06:11.960 --> 0:06:15.400 On the surface, fuzz is about the many creative ways 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.839 humans have tried to deal with wildlife eating their crops 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:23.719 or destroying their property or flying into airplane engines. But 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:28.040 underneath the humorous and bizarre stories of bird repellent lasers 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:31.080 at the Vatican or choosy bears cruising the fridge in 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.279 the house they broke into are philosophical musings about what 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:39.560 makes a pest a pest, the changing nature of conservation, 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.520 what peaceful coexistence could look like, and whether it could 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:48.080 ever be achieved or sustained. Mary Roach is one of 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:52.200 my heroes of science communication, and I am so excited 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.000 to get to chat with her today. So we'll take 0:06:55.040 --> 0:07:22.600 a quick break here and then get right into the interview. Mary, 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.400 thank you so so much for joining me today. I 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.920 am beyond excited. Your books are lining my shelves. You 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.400 are one of my favorite writers of all time. You're hilarious, 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:37.080 You're incredibly informative, Like I don't know how you do it, 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:38.960 but this is a dream come true. 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:46.240 Honestly, Oh stop blushing. Thank you so much. I'm delighted 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:46.800 to be here. 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.920 I'm super excited to chat with you today about your 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:55.160 latest book, Fuzz When Nature Breaks the Law. So tell 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:57.800 me what is the origin story for this book, if 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.640 there is one, and when did you first get the 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.720 idea to write a book about human wildlife conflict. 0:08:04.560 --> 0:08:09.000 Well, it's kind of a roundabout meandering origin story. I 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.840 you know, have wasn't mauled by a cougar or anything 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.800 exciting like that. When I finished one book, I never 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.200 know what I'm going to do next. I'm I was 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.240 looking for some new little sliver of science that I've 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:26.360 never heard of before I arrived at human wildlife conflict. Indirectly, 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.360 I thought I was maybe going to do something on 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:32.679 the forensics a wildlife forensics, but not the forensics of 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:34.880 an attack scene, which I do cover in the book, 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:40.679 but the forensics of like when somebody discovers contraband like 0:08:40.760 --> 0:08:43.200 it's it's a pelt or it's like a horn and 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.360 what is you know, that sort of forensics. And I 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.959 got interested in that because I've came upon this paper 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:54.080 called how to tell Real versus Counterfeit Tiger Penis. This 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:56.360 is like a paper that's used as a handbook for 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:58.680 these people who work in the Wildlife Forensics Laboratory up 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.880 in Ashland, Oregon. There's the woman there and she's really good, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:06.160 and so am I now at identifying real versus counterfeit 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.280 tiger penis, which is something you need to do because 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:10.839 the organ of the tiger is sometimes used to make 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:15.959 traditional medicine as a cure for virility or impotence. This 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.280 is traditional medicine that doesn't, as far far as I know, 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:24.679 have any actual virility properties, but it's something that does 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:29.319 get made into a soup. So it's important for her 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.280 for somebody to know when they find a box of 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.920 what appeared to be penises, you know, are they from 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.080 an endangered species or are they not? And it's actually 0:09:39.720 --> 0:09:42.800 you'll be happy to know it is almost always counterfeit. 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.679 It's usually deer or horse or cow, because first of all, 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:48.800 they're easier to come by and second of all, they're big, 0:09:50.040 --> 0:09:53.479 and they're inspiring, and the tiger has a pretty surprisingly 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:57.600 small penis. I feel like it's rude to say that 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:01.280 about tigers, but they've got pretty small penises anyway. So 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.640 that led me up to this lab and I thought, well, 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:05.880 this is kind of interesting, maybe there's a book here. 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.040 But as it turns out, I would wouldn't be allowed 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:12.240 to tag along on an actual investigation, and I wanted 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:14.200 to be able to taggle. I like to be there 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.480 and to be reporting in the moment. And I had this, 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.680 as you know, I was envisioning a sting operation where 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:24.480 myself and the the officer would be like breaking into 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:29.640 this you know, back alley, dimly lit room where people 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.960 would be bending over and making tiger you know, fake 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.200 tiger penis, which they do they they somebody does that 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.160 because they have to notch them because cats have barbed penis. 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:42.719 To see, this is not a tidy origin story erin 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:43.800 I love it. 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:45.760 I love it. I am so enhanced. 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:54.160 Anyway, So the whole tagging along with the professionals wasn't 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.720 going to work for legal reasons, I was told, So 0:10:57.800 --> 0:11:01.640 I kind of came back home thinking, well, that's disappointing. 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:04.720 But around that time I came upon a book from 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:09.800 nineteen oh six called The Criminal Prosecution and Capital Punishment 0:11:09.880 --> 0:11:12.679 of Animals and it's I whish I thought initially was 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:17.000 a hoax, because it's this book about bears being excommunicated 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:20.560 from the church and pigs being put on trial, caterpillars 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:25.800 being assigned legal representation when they were vandalizing and stealing 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.680 from farmers. So it was some combination of all of 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.360 this made me think, oh, what what about if we 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.160 turn it inside out and the animals or the perpetrators, 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.520 not the victims like this? So that led me to 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.640 human wildlife conflict, a branch of science I had no 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:46.480 idea existed, had never heard of. There are conferences and 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:49.719 textbooks and experts and careers, and I was like. 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.240 This could be fun, and it certainly is. And it 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.480 seems like the research for this book took you on 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:02.080 incredible adventures all over the world to like Vatican City 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:05.320 in search of how to scare birds the best way. 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.880 Like it's it's amazing. So you know, I wanted to 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.679 ask you what your process was like for deciding, you know, 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:16.280 what trips to take and what goes into writing a book. 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:21.760 Uh, it's pretty straightforward. It is me going what's going 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:25.120 to be most fun for me and and for the 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:29.760 reader by extension, like what's going to be surprising, fun, 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:36.760 far flung, exotic, weird, frightening, whatever, what's gonna you know what. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.080 So so it's really me almost doing like a scouting 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.920 for a location. In a sense. It's me contacting lots 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.280 of different people in this world and and sort of 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:48.719 finding out, you know, who's going to be out in 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:51.000 the field and who will let me come along and 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:57.479 be there. So really, if it wasn't fun, funny, surprising, 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.120 it didn't make the cut. It's also there's places that 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:02.480 appealed to me more than others. I was always curious 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.040 as a lapsed Catholic. I was always curious about the Vatican. 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:10.160 So I came across some misbehaving goals in Vatican City 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:14.400 and I thought, let's go see what the Vatican has 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:18.760 to say about about misbehaving wildlife. And yes, they had. 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:23.520 They were having some problems with vandalizing gals, gulls, vandalizing 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:27.040 the floral displays at the Easter. This massive floral display 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:32.560 at the Easter Sunday Mass and Saint Peter's, so you 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:34.600 know that's that's going to be in there. I mean, 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.000 you know, it wasn't so much the goals or the 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.720 crime in that case, it was just the juxtaposition of 0:13:40.360 --> 0:13:43.439 wildlife conflict and Vatican City. 0:13:44.000 --> 0:13:47.920 The Vatican It's amazing, Yeah, I mean there were so 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:53.160 many amazing places that you went and cool like conferences 0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:56.640 that you tagged along to, and and I was wondering 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.760 if you had one that stuck out in your mind 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.440 as either the most fun or the most memorable, or 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:06.440 the weirdest or anything like that in the process of 0:14:06.480 --> 0:14:07.280 research for this. 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.280 Well, the one that I think was surprising to me 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:16.160 and completely fascinating. I went to this conference on the 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.160 practice of forensics at attack scenes. In other words, if 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.560 somebody is mauled by a bear or cougar, it's usually 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:26.400 a bear or cougar in this country anyway, The wildlife 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:29.640 professionals arrive on the scene and they do things that 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.760 they would you would see you like a police procedural 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.240 like on CSI. You know, they there's the yellow tape 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.680 that's securing the scene. They're going in and they are 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:44.920 collecting evidence. They're removing the body for so that they 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:47.200 can take it to the lab and look at examine 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.640 the bitemarks and the injuries, which tell you a lot 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:54.800 about who committed this quote unquote crime. Who did this? 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.880 You know, they're so they're they know everything about how 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.200 these different animals kill. So it's pretty easy for them 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.960 to figure out what species it was. Was it a man, 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.960 was it a cougar, was it a wolf? Was it 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.320 what you know? Was it a bear? What kind of 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:11.480 bear was it? So they can and then they take 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:14.720 it farther and they're trying to figure out specifically which 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.600 individual they may have an animal and custody, and they're 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:21.200 going to be get gathering DNA off of the victim 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:23.320 or the victim's clothes, and they're going to get a 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.320 match and if and if the suspect I'm using air quotes, 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:32.040 if the suspect is found to be not the actual criminal, 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:36.240 again air quotes, they're released. So that and I had 0:15:36.240 --> 0:15:39.360 no idea that anybody does that. So we had this 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:42.000 conference where we learned all these techniques. We had fake 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:46.080 attack scenes, and we had mannequins, these soft touch mannequins 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:52.080 that on them. The actual injuries, which were some of 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.320 them quite gruesome, had been had been crafted on these 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:59.240 bodies so that we had these you know, simulated victims 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.760 that we then were doing our forensics on, like you know, 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.160 looking at the bite marks and you know, looking at 0:16:05.160 --> 0:16:07.160 the you know, is this the hallmark of a cougar 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:09.600 versus a bear? And we're in this big room and 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:14.800 right next to us there's a large bingo game going 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.600 on in the people from the bingo game was sometimes 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.520 like walk down to the bathrooms and sort of look 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:22.000 in and like, you know, there's these naked, bloodied, full 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.520 sized human forms and they're like, what's going on in 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:30.480 the Ponderosa room. So that one, you know, that's just 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.920 for me pure gold to write up. It's so interesting 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.680 and it's funny in its way, and so I think 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:41.520 that one, I think that one stands out as a 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.760 lot of fun and just interesting. 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:49.000 Absolutely. I was laughing out loud on the couch while 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.640 I was reading it, and my partner kept being like, 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.320 what are you what are you reading? Like what's happening 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.320 over there? Like kept having to read quotes out loud, 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.200 and I was just like, you've got to just you 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.640 got to read this. It's absolutely hilarious, Which I feel 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:06.959 like that's such A hallmark of your writing is you 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:09.240 are so funny. And I feel like it's a silly 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:12.200 question to ask, like, how are you so funny? Why 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:16.080 are you so funny? So instead maybe I'll ask what 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:19.679 role you think humor plays in the way you communicate 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.720 science humor? 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:25.480 I think humor is just when it comes to science, 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:28.440 sometimes people need a little enticing, you know. I think 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.480 people wrongly, I believe, but they think that science is 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.239 dull because they're basing it on I don't know their 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.520 chemistry textbook or whatever it is, so they might need 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.200 they need a little enticing, And so I think humor 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.000 is one way to kind of pull people in and 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.160 kind of entertain them a little bit while they're learning. 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.679 So it's also more fun for me to write it 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.200 that way. So much of the humor, though, really has 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.040 to do with the research. You know, what do I 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:57.560 decide to put in the book and what do I 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.760 decide to leave out? You know, I mean there's so 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.080 many different all over the world, so many different human 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.880 wildlife conflicts, and so many different species that people struggle with, 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.199 so many different solutions. But you know, I was looking 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:18.080 for things that might have some fun, you know, some humor. Yeah, so, 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.399 so humor is important to me. It's the way that 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:23.760 I make the book a fun read, or I hope 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.000 that I hope that I make it a fun read. 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.480 So we've so far talked a lot about or a 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:33.119 little bit about human wildlife conflict, but I don't know 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.640 if we've broadly defined what it is. And that's sort 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.520 of it seems like it could be potentially a tricky 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:43.560 question because on the outset, you have this concept. Okay, 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:48.840 while it's where there's some sort of detrimental outcome when 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.439 humans and wildlife interact, but who decides what that is? 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.840 Did you run into this sort of almost a philosophical 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.439 dilemma in writing this book. 0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.680 Not, not really, because it's typically one of two things. 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:10.000 It's either a situation where human beings are being badly 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:15.840 harmed or killed, or it's a situation where somebody's bottom 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:20.200 line is threatened, somebody's financial situation. So it's it's largely economical. 0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:23.560 So if you look at I mean, the National Wildlife 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:27.080 Research Center, which is under the USDA, and the animals 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:31.040 that they focus on are ones that damage crops, ones 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:35.159 that kill livestock, ones that threaten somebody's it's somebody in 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.040 agricultures threat. It's a threat to their bottom line. They're 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:43.000 they're economics. So so that's typically you know where you 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.600 find animals in the category of nuisance. If you look 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:48.399 at the they're listing it that that's what's there. But 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:52.760 then you know there's also scenarios where if animals are 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:55.480 string Like a good case I think in point is 0:19:55.680 --> 0:20:01.439 the coyote in this country. The populations have it seems 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:03.560 if either the populations have gone up. I didn't cover 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:06.480 coyotes in the book, but there's been a lot of 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:10.879 urban coyotes that are getting close to people in a 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:14.400 way that has been perceived as a threat to children 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.720 because the coyotes not going to go after a full 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:22.720 grown adult, but a small child is you know, around 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:24.959 the size of something that a coyote would pray on. 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:28.400 And they've been some cases where they're coming closer or 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:32.760 and or I think biting children. And so now that 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:35.639 that's happening, there's a lot more focus on coyotes. What 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:37.840 do we do about coyotes? You know, when they're just 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.040 kind of in the background running around, you see you know, 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.760 you see them, You're like, whatever they get into trash sometimes, 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:45.919 but they're kind of cool. And but now now that 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.800 people feel that their kids are in danger, now, now 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:56.120 that's that's put them in the crosshairs. Mm. 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:01.520 One of the things that kept popping out to me 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:06.280 is that when there is a particular instance of human 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:09.879 wildlife conflict that keeps happening, you know, like a bear 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.680 keeps getting into trash or something like that, it seems 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:17.320 to signal that, Okay, something has to change in order 0:21:17.359 --> 0:21:21.640 to protect both the human and the wildlife. But most 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.199 of the time, it seems like, and maybe this is 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:28.080 my you know, misperception, it seems like it's the animal's 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:34.199 behavior that's targeted more than the human's behavior. Why is that? 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.000 Is it just impossible to get a human to change 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:40.880 their ways? So, yeah, do you why do you think 0:21:40.920 --> 0:21:43.240 it is more the animal behavior that's targeted. 0:21:43.280 --> 0:21:48.200 Oh, because humans don't want to bother to change. We don't, 0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:52.480 you know, we don't We don't want to take inconvenient steps. 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.439 We don't want to we don't want to change. We 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.040 would rather just pick up the phone and have somebody 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:04.360 deal with it. By large. And it's it's ironic because 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:07.920 it's so much easier to get a person to change 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:10.480 their behavior than an animal, I mean, an animal that 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.280 is following its instincts, whether it's after food or a 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:19.520 warm place to give birth. It's very hard to dissuade 0:22:19.520 --> 0:22:22.600 that animal. You can't reason with them, you can't find them, 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.000 you can't read them the Riot Act. You can try 0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:28.960 to haze them, but if the if what they're after 0:22:29.200 --> 0:22:32.879 is really enticing, like a big dumpster behind a restaurant, 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:38.200 you can you know, you can shoot Robert Broletts at 0:22:38.200 --> 0:22:40.520 them and they'll be like, ow okay, but I'm still 0:22:40.520 --> 0:22:42.359 going to go after it. You know you can. So 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:44.560 hazing doesn't work that well. The things that you can 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:49.199 do don't work that well. It's much much easier, but 0:22:49.440 --> 0:22:53.360 also still hard to get people to change their behavior, 0:22:53.400 --> 0:22:58.160 either by finding them or educating them or both. So 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:02.240 we ought to look you know that that should just 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.400 be what's done. It is done more and more, I mean, 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:10.879 because over the years, the solutions that have tried to 0:23:11.520 --> 0:23:13.840 change the behavior of animals or just you know, kill 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:16.480 lots and lots of them have been shown not to work. 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.879 So people and their behavior is really the place to 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:21.760 keep your focus. 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:26.159 Yeah, m hmm. Yeah, it was interesting to read about 0:23:26.240 --> 0:23:31.200 how relocation is kind of one of the least humane 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:35.520 things that you can do sometimes for an animal, and 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:37.800 yet so much of it is like there's that balance 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:42.399 between keeping the public happy and providing a service that 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:46.040 is you know, valuable and also not angering the public, 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:49.720 and and you know, just it seems very challenging to 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:51.240 strike that balance. 0:23:51.880 --> 0:23:59.600 Yes, yeah, and relocation or translocation is also there's liability issues. 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.639 If you, as a wildlife agency, are informed that a 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.359 bear has been getting close to people's yards, it may 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.560 have swiped it somebody but not injured them, and you go, 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:13.439 you know what, we'll monitor this situation. I'm not going 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:15.639 to do anything, but we'll monitor it. Now, if that 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.800 bear comes in again and in fact harms somebody in 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:22.320 a serious way or kills them, you as the agency 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:25.720 who didn't take action, can be liable. Similarly, if you 0:24:25.800 --> 0:24:28.240 do take action and you relocate that bear, and now 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:31.600 it goes to the community closest to that forest where 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:34.080 you've relocated it, and it gets into the same kind 0:24:34.119 --> 0:24:40.560 of behavior and somebody's harmed there, again, you would be liable. 0:24:40.600 --> 0:24:44.199 And there have been pretty big lawsuits with pretty big payouts, 0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:49.320 so that is also a factor. Yeah, so yeah, there's 0:24:49.359 --> 0:24:52.200 no easy answers unfortunately. 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:58.240 Yeah. Yeah, some of these human wildlife conflicts that you 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.840 describe in your book book seem almost Disney like, right, 0:25:02.920 --> 0:25:05.560 you know, a bear breaking into a house and delicately 0:25:05.640 --> 0:25:09.199 sifting through the fridge and putting some things aside and 0:25:09.240 --> 0:25:13.680 only choosing certain items, and then others are very much 0:25:13.760 --> 0:25:17.560 less so, like some of these quote unquote man eating cats. 0:25:18.880 --> 0:25:22.439 What makes a cat man eating? And how is this 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:26.359 term maybe not the best to describe a cat? 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:33.760 Yeah, the term man eating or man eater was coined 0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:36.439 by one of those big game hunters, Jim Corbett, who 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:40.360 wrote a lot of books about his adventures tracking and 0:25:40.440 --> 0:25:43.280 killing these creatures. I should say this is this is 0:25:43.320 --> 0:25:46.080