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Speaker 1: Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and

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Speaker 1: today we're talking get in the Job you Want with

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Speaker 1: Madeline Mann.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Madeleine Man is an HR and recruiting leader.

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Speaker 2: She's the author of Reverse the Search, and she spun

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Speaker 2: her insulter knowledge of the hiring process into an award

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Speaker 2: winning career coaching empire called Self Made and Millennial, where

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Speaker 2: she has reached a ton of folks. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: her book, Reverse the Search it comes out next week

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Speaker 2: April first, so keep an.

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Speaker 1: Eye out for that.

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Speaker 2: Through her platform and coaching, Madeline works to turn job

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Speaker 2: seekers into job shoppers, enabling any professional out there to

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Speaker 2: land high paying job offers, with many of them even

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Speaker 2: landing roles at Competitive Tune five hundred companies. Basically, it

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Speaker 2: seems like we've been doing job hunting all wrong, and

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk about that today. She's been featured

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Speaker 2: over in The Journal, The Times, ABC News, She's got

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Speaker 2: over twenty four million views on YouTube, and we are

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Speaker 2: excited for her to now join us on our humble

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Speaker 2: little podcast. Madeline Mann, thank you for joining us.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Matt and Joel, so good to be here.

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Speaker 1: We're excited to have you, Madeline, so much to talk about,

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Speaker 1: specifically in regards to finding a great job and hopefully

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Speaker 1: making it easier than most people tend to make it.

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Speaker 1: But our first question to everyone who comes on the

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Speaker 1: show is what do you like to splurge on? Matt

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Speaker 1: and I spurgeon nice craft beer, but hey, it's okay

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Speaker 1: because we're doing the right thing. We're saving and investing

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Speaker 1: for our future. What is your splurge?

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Speaker 3: So I'm not one who likes to splurge. But one

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Speaker 3: thing that I've done that I think people find kind

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Speaker 3: of ritzy or something that almost no one does, is

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Speaker 3: I have a stylist pick out nearly all of my clothes.

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Speaker 1: That does sound fancy? It does Yep, that's not something

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Speaker 1: I've ever done.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I I I'm someone who loves color. I don't

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Speaker 3: have a black shirt in my closet. And I would

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Speaker 3: always buy clothes and I could never wear any of

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Speaker 3: them because none of them matched or I just was

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Speaker 3: bad at picking out things that looked good on me.

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Speaker 3: And so I invested in a stylist and now I

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Speaker 3: actually spend less money on clothes and all that because

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Speaker 3: they're everything matches, everything looks good on me. I like everything,

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Speaker 3: so I keep it longer, I wear it more. So

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Speaker 3: it's it's in the end. I do think it was

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Speaker 3: it's a very good investment where I'm saving money. But yes,

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Speaker 3: it is a little bit, uh, I a little boo.

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Speaker 3: I thought, Yeah, it's boushie. I thought a little silly

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Speaker 3: because it's like people wake up every day and just

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Speaker 3: dress themselves. Why can't I do that? But I can't.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that you're the opposite of Steve Jobs that

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Speaker 1: you I too. I think the sort of black turtleneck

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Speaker 1: on repeat, it's a little boring, Like there's like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, jazz it up a little, but I'm curious.

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Speaker 1: What does it look like to have your own stylist?

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Speaker 1: Is this like an online relationship? Are they emailing you? Hey,

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Speaker 1: these are the fits, the specific outfits I would recommend

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Speaker 1: that you dress in. Are they like buying it and

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Speaker 1: shipping it to you? What are the details there?

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Speaker 3: Right? So she is remote and yeah, she did a

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Speaker 3: full analysis based on photos of like what what are

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Speaker 3: the best looks for my body and all of that,

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Speaker 3: and the color palettes where every color will go together,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, as she just sends me all the links

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Speaker 3: of Hey, here are all the things you should buy,

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Speaker 3: and here's the sizing of everything you should buy, and

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Speaker 3: I just buy it myself.

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Speaker 1: Super cool.

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Speaker 2: Have you heard of these companies that exist that where

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Speaker 2: you get your colors done? They like put colors in

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Speaker 2: front of your face or whatever.

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Speaker 1: So it, yes, is this a.

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Speaker 2: Part of like what it is? As stylist does as well.

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Speaker 2: So is this this is something you believe in?

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Speaker 3: Yes, she did that. She did that whole thing, except

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Speaker 3: we did it remotely with photos and all that she's

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Speaker 3: in Ireland?

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Speaker 1: So is that just about what colors look best on you?

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Speaker 1: Is that? Is that what it is?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, okay, exactly.

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Speaker 2: All right, So Joel just needs to wear more blue

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Speaker 2: to like make his eyes pop. Yeah, maybe what we

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Speaker 2: need to do. I think I need a consultant professional that. No, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I'm good enough, Joe, I got this. You're free at least, Madelin.

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Speaker 2: Why do you prefer the term job shopping? I've noticed

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Speaker 2: that right, Like, so instead of like job hunting job seeking,

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Speaker 2: you like to use the term job shopping. Why is

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Speaker 2: that the one that you often like.

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Speaker 3: To use the most, Because so many people don't realize

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Speaker 3: that the job search is not just one where we

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Speaker 3: are beholden to employers where we hope that they deign

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Speaker 3: to give us attention. When I was working with clients

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Speaker 3: and transforming their confidence and their job search approach, I

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Speaker 3: realized that they started shopping around for opportunities, they started

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Speaker 3: meeting different employers, and the majority of their interview opportunities

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Speaker 3: did not come from them applying to these jobs and

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Speaker 3: looking for these jobs. The majority came from these companies saying, hey,

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Speaker 3: we found you, please interview with us. It came inbound.

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Speaker 3: And so once you start doing these strategies, you find

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Speaker 3: yourself that, Wow, it doesn't have to be this effortfull hunt,

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Speaker 3: but it can be more of a fun shopping experience

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Speaker 3: where you're shopping for your future, you're shopping for your

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Speaker 3: next career move.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I had backyard chickens. A couple of them died.

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Speaker 1: That's why I say had, But we'll get back to

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Speaker 1: having more again in the future. I think of like

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Speaker 1: when I watch them eat, they're kind of like pecking

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Speaker 1: at the ground, and lots of times they come up

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Speaker 1: with nothing or just dirt or something like that, And

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Speaker 1: I think that's what it feels like as a job hunter.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes like you're pecking aimlessly and then you get a

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Speaker 1: mouthful of dirt. I guess the smarter chickens, I guess.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, what a waste of my time. But like,

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Speaker 1: there are so many stats Battlin that reveal that a

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Speaker 1: lot of America workers in particular, they're kind of unhappy

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Speaker 1: right with the status quo. And maybe their their boss

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Speaker 1: is saying, ah, we're going to return to the office.

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Speaker 1: You need to come back in a few days a week,

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Speaker 1: and now they're even less happy. So in your experience,

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Speaker 1: why is it that people tend to avoid shopping for

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Speaker 1: jobs given how little satisfaction people seem to have with

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Speaker 1: their jobs.

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Speaker 3: Well, the thing that people hit their heads against the

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Speaker 3: wall is is if they worry that they're going to

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Speaker 3: put themselves out in the job market, find their next

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Speaker 3: role and be just as unhappy there or possibly even

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Speaker 3: worse at least where they are now, it's the devil

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Speaker 3: they know.

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Speaker 1: And it's like the grass is browner on the other side.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And what's actually sometimes worse is if you

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Speaker 3: always think it the grass is greener, and you go

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Speaker 3: about your job, start's the wrong way, and now you're

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Speaker 3: hopping from terrible job to terrible job, and so what

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Speaker 3: needs to be the beginning of all this is getting

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Speaker 3: extremely clear about what is your next career step. I

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Speaker 3: talk in the book about how I did a survey

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Speaker 3: out to thousands and thousands of people in my audience,

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Speaker 3: and the vast majority of people responded that the way

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Speaker 3: that they chose their career was simply because they stumbled

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Speaker 3: into it. And that is the way people are treating

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Speaker 3: their careers. They are stumbling through it arguably the most

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Speaker 3: important decision you could make, because it impacts your finances,

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Speaker 3: your emotion, your family life, all of it. And we

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Speaker 3: are just choosing to not choose. And so that is

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Speaker 3: one of the things I talk a lot about with

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Speaker 3: the job shopping strategy is let's take deliberate action to

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Speaker 3: reevaluate what's your right next career step and not be

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Speaker 3: intimidated by the fact that there might be a little

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Speaker 3: bit of work to reconfigure your past experience or you know,

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Speaker 3: fill in some skill gaps, but put yourself on a

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Speaker 3: trajectory that helps fulfill you, that meets your needs and

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Speaker 3: values in that career path, and also gets you paid well.

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Speaker 1: I like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I like how you said it's going to take

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Speaker 2: a little bit of work, because there are some different

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Speaker 2: myths that are held by folks who are looking for

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Speaker 2: a job, and a lot of times folks do think

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Speaker 2: it's easier just to aim lower, to not set their

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Speaker 2: sites super high. Can you share some of the other

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Speaker 2: myths that folks get hung up on?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely right, you aiming lower not a great move. If

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Speaker 3: people think that it's easier to land a job below

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Speaker 3: your level, it's actually actually easier to land a job

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Speaker 3: that's a bit higher than your level. Another myth that

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Speaker 3: people fall victim to is they think that additional certifications

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Speaker 3: and degrees will help them stand out, which you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean, so many people are completely burdened by student

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Speaker 3: loans and all these things. These false promises that these

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Speaker 3: MBA programs give you that somehow you're going to go

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Speaker 3: through this program and your career is going to transform,

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Speaker 3: and that's what I'm seeing time and time again, is

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Speaker 3: not happening. Now. Of course, get the education, you need

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Speaker 3: to check the box on your application that you have it.

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Speaker 3: But I think the difference here is that people think

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Speaker 3: that when they're struggling to stand out, that that will

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Speaker 3: make them stand out and it's not a way to

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Speaker 3: stand out. It is a baseline qualification. It's really your

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Speaker 3: relationships and your expertise that will help you to stand out.

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Speaker 1: So those are a few myths. Talk to me about

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Speaker 1: maybe some of the what you might call the boomer

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Speaker 1: advice or something like like the old school advice on

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Speaker 1: the job hunting front that maybe made sense like decades ago,

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Speaker 1: but just doesn't make sense in today's job search market.

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Speaker 1: Like what have you heard people say and you just

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Speaker 1: like cringe when you hear that advice?

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. Well, the thing that you'll often hear

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Speaker 3: from friends and family members if you're struggling your job search,

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Speaker 3: they'll say, just keep going, keep being consistent, keep applying.

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Speaker 3: And you should absolutely can continue putting effort into your

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Speaker 3: job search. But if you are not trying a different approach,

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Speaker 3: then you are you're wasting your time. Really, having a

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Speaker 3: high volume job search is actually not the answer to

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Speaker 3: lending more job offers. The book is full of these

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Speaker 3: examples as well as just in general with my clients

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Speaker 3: is that they'll focus on a handful of opportunities, let

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Speaker 3: fewer than ten maybe, and they'll land interviews at most

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Speaker 3: of them, and then Land offers at a handful of

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Speaker 3: those and this is the approach that actually works because

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Speaker 3: what's happened is that because anyone can apply to jobs

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Speaker 3: these days, these job boards are completely overrunned with noise,

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Speaker 3: just absolute noise, and it's now the way to stand

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Speaker 3: out is to be more focused, is to go one

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Speaker 3: step above. And that's a big part of the job

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Speaker 3: shopper strategy is to instead of just blasting out your

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Speaker 3: information out there and using all these dumb buzzwords that

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Speaker 3: is very that we were all taught and we're writing

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Speaker 3: our resumes of seasoned, professional, collaborative, creative, all those those things.

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Speaker 3: Moving away from that getting highly practical and making your

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Speaker 3: resume and your LinkedIn profile like sales pages instead of

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Speaker 3: Wikipedia pages.

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Speaker 2: It's fascinating because like when you do fill out an

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Speaker 2: online application, like it does feel like that you just

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Speaker 2: highlighted how you're wasting your time essentially, But when you

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Speaker 2: do that, it's something that you can check like on

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Speaker 2: your to do list, right, like that's something I can

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Speaker 2: cross out. It feels like a productive endeavor. But then

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Speaker 2: you don't actually hear back and you have worked in

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Speaker 2: HR so like can I guess, can you give us

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Speaker 2: like a little peak behind the curtain as to what's

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Speaker 2: going on?

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Speaker 1: Is it truly?

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Speaker 2: Because there are just so many applicants out there, and

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Speaker 2: just the in that case, the numbers aren't in your favor.

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Speaker 3: Right, So some of these job boards will actually tell

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Speaker 3: you how many people have applied to these roles, and

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Speaker 3: you'll see within hours there's often hundreds of applications and

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Speaker 3: sounds demoralizing.

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Speaker 1: Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's extremely demoralizing. And what's just as demoralizing in

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Speaker 3: a lot of ways is if you were the employer,

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Speaker 3: you look at the applications you've gotten and you can

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Speaker 3: tell these people did not read the job description, They

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Speaker 3: have no idea who your company is. They often their

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Speaker 3: qualifications aren't even remotely related to the role they're going for.

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Speaker 3: So what's upsetting about that is that all of this

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Speaker 3: noise is now burying the candidates who genuinely wanted the

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Speaker 3: opportunity and are well qualified. So what does the employer do.

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Speaker 3: They turn to smaller stacks. We'll call it like virtual stacks, right,

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Speaker 3: So a stack of people who their employees have said, hey,

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Speaker 3: I know this person, check out their resume, or the

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Speaker 3: stack of resumes that a recruiter collected from finding people

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Speaker 3: on LinkedIn or from their own database. So they go

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Speaker 3: to these other stacks because that takes them much less time,

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Speaker 3: it's much more time efficient. And so your goal in

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Speaker 3: the job search is to get into one of those

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Speaker 3: smaller stacks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the resume gets you in the fat stack.

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Speaker 1: They're just essentially casting into the garbage bin instead of

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Speaker 1: getting you in the short stack where you're actually being considered.

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Speaker 1: In the book, you write that it's one thing to

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Speaker 1: have the right skills, but having an excellent strategy to

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Speaker 1: get noticed is what unlocks incredible opportunity. And like you

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Speaker 1: just said a second ago, you said, make your resume

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Speaker 1: and your LinkedIn your sales page instead of a Wikipedia page.

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Speaker 1: So can you kind of dial in on that a

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Speaker 1: little bit more, what that looks like and how you

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Speaker 1: can stand out so that you can get noticed in

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Speaker 1: some of those smaller stacks instead of like just being

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Speaker 1: the habitual resume seminter.

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Speaker 3: So what we were taught to do is to create

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Speaker 3: our resume of our greatest accomplishments, right, Yeah, that was

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Speaker 3: how I was taught of write down all the coolest

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Speaker 3: things you've done, and that is the way our resumes

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Speaker 3: often show up, and it's called autobiography syndrome, where we

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Speaker 3: are sharing our life story on our resumes and thinking

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Speaker 3: that people want to see a chronicled, accurate picture of

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Speaker 3: what we've done in the past. Companies don't actually want

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Speaker 3: to know your background and your best accomplishments. What they

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Speaker 3: do want to know is can you solve our problems?

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Speaker 3: Can you achieve what we want? And what happens is

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Speaker 3: I created a formula called the Glory formula, which is

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Speaker 3: detailed in Reversus Search, And what that formula does is

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Speaker 3: that when you are building out your resume and LinkedIn profile,

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Speaker 3: you don't start with your experience. You start with what

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Speaker 3: the company's asking for. So imagine building out your entire

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Speaker 3: LinkedIn profile, your entire resume based on what a company's

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Speaker 3: asking for. Suddenly all of your experience shrinks because you know,

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Speaker 3: even though I I know that you're being a door

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Speaker 3: to door salesman helped to cultivate your charisma, and then

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Speaker 3: the other job of you know, working in customer success

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Speaker 3: helped you be resilient, blah blah blah. Right, you have

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Speaker 3: all those things, but you're going for a project manager

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Speaker 3: role like tell me how you'd be a great project manager.

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Speaker 3: Those are the things that we often get distracted about.

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Speaker 3: So you need to start with the opportunity first, build

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Speaker 3: all of your assets back from that as if you

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Speaker 3: are a product, you are a product. You are a

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Speaker 3: someone selling your services, and too often we have this

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Speaker 3: autobiography syndrome where we feel like we have to tell

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Speaker 3: the tale of our past.

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Speaker 1: So does I mean does that literally mean?

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Speaker 2: So practically speaking, and you spend and you've got a

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Speaker 2: lot of awesome resources on how to flesh out your

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Speaker 2: LinkedIn profile? Does that literally mean going in there and

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Speaker 2: changing tailoring I guess some of your experience to the

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Speaker 2: position that you're looking to land, even if it means

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Speaker 2: kind of like, you know what, I used to highlight

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Speaker 2: this sort of a plishment, but instead I'm gonna let's

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Speaker 2: just tweak it a little bit, using maybe the verbiage

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Speaker 2: that my potential hopeful new employer that they're looking for.

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Speaker 1: Is that what that looks like?

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Speaker 3: Right? Yes? So to give you a super practical example,

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Speaker 3: let's say let's say someone is an executive assistant and

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Speaker 3: they're looking to move into a social media marketing role.

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Speaker 3: Literally one hundred percent on their resume on the LinkedIn

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Speaker 3: of the bullets under executive assistant, Like, let's say that

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Speaker 3: only ten percent of the time they help the marketing

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Speaker 3: team with scheduling posts or you know, write helping to

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Speaker 3: write emails either internally or externally, whatever is that's relevant

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Speaker 3: to this role. Even that's if that's just ten percent

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Speaker 3: of the time that they spent in that job, that

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Speaker 3: is going to make up one hundred percent of their

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Speaker 3: bullets on their resume and on their LinkedIn. And I

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Speaker 3: need people to start making this shift because it feels

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Speaker 3: so weird to them because they're thinking, oh, no, but

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Speaker 3: my best accomplishment was when I did X. Okay, I

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Speaker 3: know that those super impressive, but that doesn't have to

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Speaker 3: do with where you're going next, and so that is

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Speaker 3: the shift you need to make.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting, I mean, do you not think that there

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Speaker 2: should be any mention of like previously it's like, all right,

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Speaker 2: I had five to ten bullet points of like my

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Speaker 2: greatest hits basically, and instead you're saying, you know, like

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Speaker 2: essentially to dial that back to zero, Like does it

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Speaker 2: not make sense to like include just like at least

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Speaker 2: one bullet point that mentions that almost as like a

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Speaker 2: launching point if they're looking for maybe somebody that's a

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Speaker 2: little more well rounded or just a little bit I

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Speaker 2: don't know. I feel like there could be some depth

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Speaker 2: that could be appreciated by a potential employer there.

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Speaker 3: Potentially, and I wouldn't discount that, and maybe it would

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Speaker 3: be one of the later bullets. And the bottom line is,

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Speaker 3: too often I'll work with clients where I'll say why

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Speaker 3: is this bullet here? And they will kind of go

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Speaker 3: off on this several paragraph long explanation of well, because

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Speaker 3: I know that they work with these types of clients,

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Speaker 3: then if they have this type of thing and they

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Speaker 3: need me to do this type of thing, like, hopefully

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Speaker 3: that will imply that I'm actually good at this type

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Speaker 3: of communication. And the bottom line is people are not

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Speaker 3: reading your entire resume, or if they're even reading it,

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Speaker 3: they're reading it very quickly. So you need to spell

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Speaker 3: things out so clearly to where they are using little

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Speaker 3: to no brain power to understand that you are the

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Speaker 3: perfect fit. So if you are using some kind of like,

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Speaker 3: you know, vague implied I could be really good at this,

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Speaker 3: you know, because of that, You're likely going to lose them.

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Speaker 2: Yeahcha, Okay, so less Nancy Drew and more just like

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Speaker 2: like literally connecting the dots for them.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, Okay, tell me about the importance of LinkedIn,

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Speaker 1: Like is LinkedIn kind of the holy grail that people

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Speaker 1: should be spending a lot more of their time focused

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Speaker 1: on when it comes to finding a job. Is that

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Speaker 1: essentially the place that people should put the bulk of

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Speaker 1: their efforts if they're kind of wanting to enter into

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Speaker 1: this job shopping realm.

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Speaker 3: So the majority of the professals I help are in

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Speaker 3: the corporate world. There are some industries and professions that

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Speaker 3: aren't on LinkedIn as much. I think about education, I

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Speaker 3: think about government, like those types of even though I

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Speaker 3: do help a lot of people in those industries as well.

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Speaker 3: I'm saying that on LinkedIn, they're not sourcing, They're not

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Speaker 3: finding as many of their candidates through the actual platform.

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Speaker 3: So I do want to preface that depending on your career,

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Speaker 3: it's more or less important. But if you are in

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Speaker 3: the corporate world, it is one hundred percent imperative that

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Speaker 3: you are discoverable on LinkedIn, and your ability to harness

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Speaker 3: LinkedIn for everything it has to offer can completely transform

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Speaker 3: the trajectory of your career and your ability to be

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Speaker 3: a job shopper where the second something goes awry in

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Speaker 3: your job or you're not convinced that it is a

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Speaker 3: great next move, you then are able to quickly PI

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Speaker 3: it and use LinkedIn and all the inbound opportunities. You

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Speaker 3: have to be in control.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question coming from somebody who's completely

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Speaker 2: self employed, uh having Yeah, your LinkedIn profile sucks, man,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know it does. Like I always wonder

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Speaker 2: if it's better for me just to completely delete it

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Speaker 2: so it doesn't exist because I don't even know my password,

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Speaker 2: Like I have not logged on. I have been personally

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Speaker 2: self employed for like decades now.

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Speaker 1: I'd be worried. I'd be worried if you dusted years

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Speaker 1: off and it's started looking real nice. I'd like where

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Speaker 1: you're going, buddy, even slove a boy there for a minute.

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Speaker 2: But we're gonna take a quick break and we're gonna

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Speaker 2: continue talking about some of these like personal on a

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Speaker 2: micro level, the steps that you can take to get

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Speaker 2: the job you want.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to that and more right after this. All right,

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Speaker 1: we're back to the break. We're still talking with Madeline

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Speaker 1: Man talking about getting the job you want, and let's

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Speaker 1: say you haven't kind of updated your job job searching

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Speaker 1: philosophy in many, many years. This is the right episode

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Speaker 1: for you to listen to. Matt. I think some people,

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Speaker 1: let's say they happened in their career ten, twelve, fifteen years.

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Speaker 1: It's one of those things like we don't apply for

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Speaker 1: a job very often, and so we forget how to

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Speaker 1: do it. So that's why I think this is helpful. Madelin.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to hear how to do different economic climates

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Speaker 1: impact job hunter's job seekers because post COVID, I think

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Speaker 1: of that that was like a job hunter's dream. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it was like you almost didn't have to be good

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Speaker 1: at it because there were just so many job opportunities

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Speaker 1: because there was more supply of jobs and there was

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Speaker 1: demand for those jobs. But that has slowly changed. How

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Speaker 1: do you think about the job climate and then how

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Speaker 1: job searcher should you know that should impact how they

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Speaker 1: go into that climate.

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Speaker 3: What's happening in this current climate, which I would characterize

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Speaker 3: as more of an employer's market, and I don't say

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Speaker 3: that lightly, truly, all the signs have been appointing to

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Speaker 3: it being an employer's market. And what you have to

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Speaker 3: realize in this type of climate is companies are worried

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Speaker 3: about making the wrong higher. They're hiring less and with

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Speaker 3: each person they hire, they are afraid of putting on

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Speaker 3: an offer to someone who's not going to work out

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Speaker 3: because they're trying to watch their bottom line.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the stakes are higher that they have folks.

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Speaker 3: Are higher, and they've been burned and they've already had

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Speaker 3: to lay off their teams and so they just they

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Speaker 3: don't want anything else to be a shakeup. And so

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Speaker 3: what job seekers are seeing is that they're getting to

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Speaker 3: the end of these interview processes and they're not losing

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Speaker 3: to anyone. They're losing to the company simply not hiring.

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Speaker 3: And what's happening here is the job seekers. And I'm

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Speaker 3: going to put it on the job seekers for this

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Speaker 3: moment because I like I like it when you know,

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Speaker 3: the folks in my audience take ownership of It's on

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Speaker 3: us to reduce the risk that we are posing to

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Speaker 3: the company. How do you do that? How do you

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Speaker 3: make it so that the company is super confident that

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Speaker 3: you are going to be the right person, You're going

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Speaker 3: to be a high performer. What you do is you

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Speaker 3: give them almost like a free trial, the way we

437
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,119
Speaker 3: have free trial an app, the way we take a

438
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,320
Speaker 3: sip of wine to try it before we buy the bottle,

439
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 3: the way we try a yoga class before we buy

440
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 3: a full month pass. You need to bring that kind

441
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 3: of energy into the interview process because these interviewers are

442
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 3: probably not going to ask you very good questions. They're

443
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,119
Speaker 3: not going to unearth the best things about you. So

444
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,160
Speaker 3: what my strategies teach is actually to go into interviews

445
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 3: with a message, with a mission, and to give them

446
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 3: certain information and also show them how you work through

447
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,880
Speaker 3: throughout the entire process, so that the risk profile on

448
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 3: you goes down. Even if you are a career changer,

449
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 3: because a lot of people say, well, I'm a risky

450
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 3: hire because I'm coming from a different industry or a

451
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 3: different profession. This works even in that case, but it's

452
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 3: about you taking those extra steps versus sitting patiently just

453
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 3: answering the questions that companies give you and hoping your

454
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 3: answers are adequate.

455
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I like that. I'm curious you highlighted maybe

456
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: this scenario where you don't get the job through no

457
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: faults of your own, but just because the company says,

458
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,440
Speaker 1: I don't know, we're reticent to hire or onboard anybody else.

459
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,760
Speaker 1: Right now, what if you do get turned down for

460
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: a job that you were really excited about and not

461
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: even because you lost out to somebody else, do you

462
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: recommend that people stay in touch with that employer, stay

463
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: in touch with the hiring manager maybe that they were

464
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,239
Speaker 1: in contact with. Is that a way to kind of

465
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: broaden your network and maybe be the first person on

466
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: their call list if something does open up, if they

467
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: really are in need.

468
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: This is another job shopper mentality, which job shopping is

469
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 3: is highly positive and optimistic in that if a company

470
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:14,720
Speaker 3: interviews you, that means they see your value and you're

471
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 3: now building relationships with them and they really like you.

472
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 3: A lot of us feel so hurt when we get

473
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 3: through two, three, even four rounds of interviews and they

474
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 3: don't pick us, and they think, oh, they don't like us, Well,

475
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 3: what I just heard is they spent four plus hours

476
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 3: getting to know you. That means that they actually do

477
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 3: like you. And so what is so important is to

478
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 3: first of all, the first thing you want to do

479
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 3: is respond to the rejection positively. You don't realize how

480
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 3: important this is, and me, as a human resources professional

481
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 3: being on the receiving end of thousands of responses to rejections,

482
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 3: most people can't handle it. Most people are rude or

483
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 3: they don't say anything. And so if you say, I

484
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 3: completely understand, thank you. This has been such a wonderful process.

485
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: I've loved getting to know about your company. I will

486
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 3: keep a lookout for other opportunities, should another one better

487
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 3: fit my skill set, and I'd love to stay in touch.

488
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 3: And that because because when you show your character is

489
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 3: not in the good times. It's not when the interviews

490
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 3: are great, it's when things go wrong. And so now

491
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 3: they're like, oops, we just missed out on someone who's

492
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 3: a high integrity person who I want to work in

493
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 3: the trenches with because they have a really great outlook

494
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 3: on rejection, then you want to stay in touch. You

495
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 3: want to you know, maybe it's every every month or so, Hey,

496
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 3: just checking in. I want to let you know I'm

497
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 3: still on the lookout for opportunities. No need to respond,

498
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,719
Speaker 3: but should anything open up, like, let me know I'm

499
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 3: still very interested. You know, little little follow ups like

500
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 3: this can absolutely change the game. I have been dubbed

501
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 3: the comeback coach because so many of my clients land

502
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 3: jobs at companies that have previously rejected them.

503
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: Huh yeah, it's like this, It's like a tight little

504
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: crack that you can get your foot in, and people

505
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: just overlook that.

506
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 1: But it's like, actually that is right there, Like that

507
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: is the path to land this job.

508
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: I think sometimes folks are not realizing or they're missing

509
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 2: out on the fact that those interactions like that is

510
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: a form of networking. It's a form of relationship building.

511
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 2: And in your book you write about how so many

512
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: folks they actually hate what they consider to be networking,

513
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 2: and specifically because it's inauthentic, but like in reality, maybe

514
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 2: they're just doing it all wrong. So, like, how would

515
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 2: you recommend for job shoppers out there to approach I

516
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 2: guess more traditional networking.

517
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 3: Networking is the fast way to land jobs, full stop,

518
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 3: and people need to start getting more comfortable with it

519
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 3: because you need to measure your job search in interactions,

520
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 3: not applications, and so simple ways that that can be

521
00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: is doing something like asking someone of this or that question, right,

522
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: So it could be just reaching out to someone you

523
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 3: already know or a new person you look at what

524
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 3: is their past, just to make sure you can get

525
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 3: a bit of context about some things that they might know,

526
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 3: and then you ask them a one sentence question in email.

527
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 3: So I might email, you know, hey, Matt and Joel,

528
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about starting my own podcast. I was thinking

529
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: about either using riverside or X technology. Which one do

530
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 3: you think is better to record my podcast on? Thanks?

531
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 3: You know, and maybe just maybe your answer is just

532
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: two sentences back to me. But now we are starting conversation,

533
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 3: and then I can then email you back in a

534
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: few weeks and say, hey, guys, I went with your

535
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 3: recommendation to use riverside and blah blah blah. Right, and

536
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 3: so just little ways like that and what I think

537
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 3: will happen and let me know because I use y'all

538
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 3: as an example. But the person on the other end

539
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: feels good about helping you. They're like, wow, we just

540
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: held madelin make her decision. It feels good. And also

541
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: it took you all of thirty seconds to maybe respond.

542
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: So just finding ways like that to build relationships with

543
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 3: folks and there I have so many different strategies on this,

544
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 3: but even just little things like that, when I position

545
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 3: networking that way to people that go, oh, I think

546
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: I might be overthinking it.

547
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think it has to be this like massive

548
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: and there, like we have to go get lunch together,

549
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: But it doesn't have to be. That can be a

550
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: quick email.

551
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 2: Like what I hear you saying there is like looking

552
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 2: for an ability for whoever you're talking to to provide value.

553
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: But I mean there's a way to do that in

554
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: reverse as well.

555
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 2: Right where you're kind of I don't know either, maybe

556
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: making introduction with some other folks. It just kind of

557
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 2: I like what you said though, Like just even the

558
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 2: quick email, it kind of opens channels of conversation for

559
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: who knows what to then take place after.

560
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 3: That, Right, and you mentioned doing the reverse of providing that.

561
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 3: So a concept I deep dive into pretty deeply in

562
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 3: reverse a search is this concept called sixty seconds of value.

563
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 3: So it goes against this idea that so many of

564
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 3: us think that in order to build relationships we need

565
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 3: to add a tremendous amount of value to someone. We

566
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 3: need to put in minutes or even hours of work

567
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 3: or as you mentioned earlier, like show up to a

568
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 3: coffee meeting and talk to them for ninety minutes or

569
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 3: whatever it is. But if you just add sixty seconds

570
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: of value. It can it can really make a big deal.

571
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: Like I you know, I could. I could even send

572
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 3: a different email where I send it to y'all where

573
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 3: I say, hey, I'm I'm I'm reaching out to people

574
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: who have a financial focused podcasts and like, what's your

575
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 3: number one money tip for someone who's been laid off

576
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 3: or something like that, right, And and you know it's

577
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 3: it's it's sixty seconds of value because I'm sending this

578
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 3: quick email, You're giving me that quote and now I'm

579
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 3: putting it into an article or LinkedIn post or something

580
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: like that where you are getting further promoted and it's

581
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 3: just a met and then now I get to meet you. Guys,

582
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 3: get to now we have a thread going where there's

583
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 3: this recip hop prosody, we have a relationship started. And

584
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 3: so little things like that that you can think of

585
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 3: can actually make a huge difference in starting a relationship

586
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: off with the right foot.

587
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like imposter syndrome is like rears at

588
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: sugglyhead when we're talking about looking for jobs, Like you

589
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: look at the qualifications and you're like, I don't live

590
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 1: up to that, or there's like a bunch of metrics

591
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, I fall shortened like two of

592
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: those metrics, so I shouldn't even try. How much does

593
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: that really hurt people when they're looking for jobs? And

594
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: what do you think about when people look at the

595
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: required experience, they're like, I don't quite meet the qualifications.

596
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: Should they apply anyway?

597
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 3: It is such a normal experience to feel overqualified for

598
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 3: so many roles and then feel underqualified for the rest

599
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: of them, and you're just in the middle thinking what

600
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: the heck do I do now? As we alluded to

601
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 3: in the beginning, it is a bit easier to land

602
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 3: a job that's a step higher. So what you have

603
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: to realize is that job descriptions are wishless. When I

604
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 3: worked in human resources, so often I would work together

605
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 3: with a hiring manager to put together's job description, and

606
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 3: I would say, you're expecting someone to have all of

607
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: these skills and all this experience, and they say absolutely, like,

608
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 3: this is what we're looking for. And then days and

609
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: weeks go by and we find some people, but the

610
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 3: hiring manager starts to come to realize that they are

611
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: looking for a purple squirrel, and so what they do

612
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: is they start to pare down those expectations or in

613
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 3: the interview, once they start talking, they're like, Okay, I

614
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: understand that you don't have exactly this industry experience, but

615
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 3: I understand the transferable and so what people overestimate how

616
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: much the higher manager ultimately is asking for, especially once

617
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: you get a little bit farther, once they've gone through

618
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: several interviews and they realize, oh, okay, what I'm asking

619
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,719
Speaker 3: for is a little bit a little bit ridiculous, and

620
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: so definitely still go for their role even if you're underqualified,

621
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 3: and that could sometimes work in your favor because companies

622
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 3: can see you as more easily retainable because they don't

623
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 3: think you're going to get bored quickly and leave and

624
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 3: find to find that better job.

625
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: Yeah.

626
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: No, I think it's up to you as the candidate

627
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 2: to communicate that well during the interview, like that is

628
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 2: what should be going on there, even.

629
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: If you aren't fully qualified.

630
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: And speaking of interviewing, like you offer a ton of

631
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: just great practical advice when it comes to interviews up

632
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: on your YouTube channel as well. But what are some

633
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 2: of the other major mistakes that you've seen folks make

634
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: when they're being interviewed.

635
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: When they're being interviewed. There's a few things. One of

636
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 3: them that is I'm being so often is because you're

637
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 3: viewing interviews as you are, you know, subservient to the interviewer.

638
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 3: You are, you are the one who is just lucky

639
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 3: that they even deign to call you. That you are

640
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: often a little bit too formal in the interviews, you're

641
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 3: a little bit too rehearsed. And I I, you know,

642
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 3: I have a system of how to prepare for interviews,

643
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 3: which actually is probably a lot shorter than what most people.

644
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 3: A lot of people actually kind of over prepare for interviews,

645
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 3: but one of the key components is to not only

646
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 3: you know, be competent, but if you are sounding rehearsed

647
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: or stilted, these people are looking to hire a coworker,

648
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: so it sets off these alarms in their head. And

649
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 3: it's all very deeply psychological of I can't trust this person.

650
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 3: I worry they're living. Yes, I don't, I don't know

651
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: who they are they are. Also, I talk a lot

652
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 3: about about in the book about how to not be

653
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: so a reable in interviews, which at first sounds a

654
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 3: little strange because I do talk a lot about being

655
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: highly positive in every step of the job search, but

656
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 3: you should come in with a perspective. If you are

657
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 3: a little bit too amenable to everything, Oh yeah, I

658
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 3: can do anything. Yeah, oh no, none of it bothers me.

659
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: People are going to leave that interview saying I didn't

660
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 3: get to know them. I don't I'm not sure how

661
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 3: they feel about these things. And that is something I'm

662
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: seeing for so many people, is that it's sending the

663
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 3: wrong signals. And I said, you know, they have to

664
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,799
Speaker 3: be able to trust you, because they're taking a risk

665
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 3: on you if they don't feel like they actually like you.

666
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 3: Because likability is a huge part of landing the job,

667
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 3: you're not getting it.

668
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, the culture fit it matters too, And so do

669
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: you have any suggestions on kind of researching the company's

670
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: culture and speaking to that inside of the interview, because

671
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: I think oftentimes it's the work experience, but on top

672
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: of that, they want to make sure that you're going

673
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: to work well on the team.

674
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 3: So doing informational interviews before an interview is fabulous to

675
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 3: talk to employees. But if you already have an interview booked,

676
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 3: I would say use your interviews as a lot of

677
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 3: the research because in the reading glass door reviews, reading

678
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 3: blog posts about the company. I do think it is.

679
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 3: It is helpful, but the most, the most the best

680
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: part there is is you bringing up that you did

681
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,600
Speaker 3: that research and you mentioning specific things that the company

682
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 3: did to show you did your research. That's usually why

683
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 3: it's so valuable. It's not as valuable necessarily to position

684
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 3: yourself the right way because you really have to ask

685
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 3: the right questions in the interview that will help you

686
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 3: see what they're looking for. And I'll give you an example,

687
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 3: like you could ask you could ask the recruiter in

688
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 3: your first interview of okay, you know, how how has

689
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,879
Speaker 3: this how's the search been going? And say well, yeah,

690
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 3: I mean this this role has been open for for

691
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 3: two months now, where we've been looking long and hard

692
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 3: for this, And you say, say, oh, well, what to

693
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 3: have a lot of the candidates been missing that you're

694
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 3: still really looking for, and they will spill all the

695
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 3: things that you need to now position yourself as for

696
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 3: the rest of that interview and your future interviews.

697
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: So like giving you the game plan, the blueprint for

698
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: you to go out there and just like hit a

699
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 1: home run.

700
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 3: They will one hundred percent give you the blueprint. Another

701
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 3: great question to ask is yeah, I mean you obviously

702
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 3: there's tons of people who are probably qualified for this role,

703
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:32,479
Speaker 3: but what would make someone a high performer in this job?

704
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 3: And again, you might see them talk about things that

705
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 3: are different or slightly differently emphasized than the job description.

706
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: When you actually hear them say it, you go bingo,

707
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 3: That's how I'm going to position myself. So it's really

708
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 3: a lot of this. Yes, it could come from research,

709
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 3: but more than research, I want you to have these

710
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 3: questions locked and loaded and then your reaction to how

711
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 3: you're going to use that information. It can be absolutely

712
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 3: lethal if you are thinking the right way about how

713
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 3: you're going to use it.

714
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 1: Nice. We got a few more questions to get to

715
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: you with you, Madeline. We specifically want to talk about negotiating,

716
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: and then we also want to talk about perpetual job shopping.

717
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: Is that a smart idea? We'll get to that and

718
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: more right after this.

719
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: If we are back from the break talking with career

720
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: coach Madeline Mayn and we just kind of covered some

721
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 2: of the different things to do. I guess Madeline during

722
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: the interview process, Let's say the interview goes incredibly well,

723
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: how then should the job shopper think about negotiating pay

724
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: because in the book you call it a collaborative process,

725
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: so specifically, what does that look like.

726
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 3: There's a lot of debate out there about when should

727
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 3: you talk about money and all of that. Based on

728
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 3: my experience in human resources and for helping thousands of

729
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 3: people negotiate their salaries, your biggest moment of power is

730
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: when they have said we want you okay, because at

731
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 3: that point they know as much as they can about

732
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 3: your value. If you've put your price on your salary

733
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 3: and all of that early on in the process, I

734
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,959
Speaker 3: think that could be helpful to just kind of cut

735
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 3: off the conversation if the numbers are way too far apart,

736
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 3: which I completely understand that's helpful, but they don't know

737
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 3: your value at that point. If they see a big

738
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 3: price tag and they say, well, we can't afford that,

739
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 3: they might pass on you. But if they've gotten to

740
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 3: the finish line, they've fallen in love with you. They're

741
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: exhausted from this interview process. You are the answer to

742
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 3: it all being over, and you say, hey, but I

743
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:44,879
Speaker 3: want a bit more money, They're going to say, yeah,

744
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 3: just give her the extra fifteen K and let's move

745
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 3: on with our lives. We love her. So that's the

746
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 3: first thing is to you know, at least you know,

747
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 3: try to make what you are asking for as late

748
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 3: in the process as possible so that they can line

749
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,359
Speaker 3: it up with your value versus just having sticker shock.

750
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 3: And second, really stating what you want. And then and

751
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 3: often I like to use a number that if you're

752
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 3: going to say a range or even ask for a number,

753
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 3: always ask for something that's above what you would actually

754
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 3: what is actually above what is your bottom? Too often

755
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 3: people will negotiate and they will literally they will actually

756
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 3: put the bottom of the range as the bottom. And unfortunately,

757
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 3: companies will often give you whatever is the lowest number

758
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 3: you said, or even below that. Like if they offered

759
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 3: you two hundred thousand and used to ask for two

760
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 3: hundred and twenty thousand, maybe they give you two hundred

761
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 3: and ten thousand, Right, So you need to make sure

762
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 3: that whatever is that number that you're saying, that it

763
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 3: is above what you'd be excited to accept.

764
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then you're feeling pot committed at that point

765
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: in time too, You're like, I've gone through this whole process,

766
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,360
Speaker 1: I guess I'll just take the offer, whereas if you

767
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: negotiated in a smarter manner, you could have positioned yourself

768
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: better to get.

769
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 2: Paid more, because in reality, you're probably staying to yourself. Well,

770
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: I did say that number, I did see that dollar amount,

771
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: and so it's just like, well, shoot, maybe I shouldn't

772
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 2: have said that. Yeah, it's hard to go back on

773
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 2: words on the truth that you've already put out there

774
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: in the universe. Yeah, Mat, I'm curious. Should do you

775
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 2: think job shopping should be a perpetual thing? Is this

776
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 2: something where like, oh I got laid off and now

777
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: it's time for me to update all this in my

778
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: LinkedIn and my resume and to start the job shopping,

779
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 2: you know, going in that direction? Or or is this

780
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: one of those things that should be done on an

781
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: ongoing basis. Should we be honing our online presence in

782
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 2: our personal brand even when we have a job, even

783
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: if we love that job.

784
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 3: The thing that people often don't think about, especially in

785
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 3: the good times, is they think, you know, to go

786
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 3: back with the example is Okay, I have a job

787
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 3: where I get paid two hundred thousand dollars a year,

788
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 3: But do you if you get laid off within six

789
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 3: months You're not making two hundred thousand dollars that year

790
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 3: unless you land another job within a few weeks or months,

791
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 3: and or you have a decent amount of severance or whatnot,

792
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 3: And so people are not factoring that into their annual

793
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 3: compensation of I need to have if I need to

794
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 3: make a certain amount of money a year, do I

795
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 3: am able to take several months off with no salary,

796
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 3: or also am if I'm not able to or I

797
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 3: don't want to do I have the ability to at

798
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 3: the drop of a hat get more opportunities and more offers.

799
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 3: And the thing about maintaining your job shopper status is

800
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 3: it doesn't take that much effort. You can passively get

801
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 3: opportunities coming to you for the rest of your career

802
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 3: while times are good, so that should anything go awry,

803
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 3: you are immediately thrust into interview processes and considering offers.

804
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 3: And so, yes, there is ongoing maintenance, and that is

805
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 3: something I definitely dive in deeply into the book of

806
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 3: how to keep it going. And there is a bit

807
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 3: of startup effort to start moving in the direction of

808
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 3: being a job shopper, but the maintenance, and I've been

809
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 3: doing this for enough years too. I've been able to

810
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 3: track my clients over years of promotions and years of

811
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 3: moving companies, and they say that every time they move jobs,

812
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 3: it's just easier and easier because that foundation is built,

813
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: but it does need to be maintained.

814
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: That makes sense though, too.

815
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: I mean it's sort of like Joel at the earlier

816
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 2: on you were talking about how looking for a job,

817
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 2: applying for a job, it's not something that we do

818
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: very often. It makes me think about moving. And if

819
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: you've only ever moved once in your entire life, it's

820
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 2: a big stinking deal. It's difficult the logistics kind of

821
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: wrapping your head around it. But if you're used to moving,

822
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: if it's something that you've done like every few years.

823
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: Like my little sister who moves almost every year.

824
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,400
Speaker 2: Who get better at it In a similar way. I

825
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 2: think instead of just moving where you lay your head,

826
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 2: it's moving where you park your butt during the day

827
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: while you're sitting there at the computer. I think the

828
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 2: better you get at looking for some of those portunities

829
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 2: makes a ton of sense. What's your advice for how

830
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,040
Speaker 2: often you can move to a different company before it

831
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: starts harming your career? Because I feel like this is

832
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 2: something that folks were doing a lot, especially back during

833
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 2: the pandemic. Offers were, you know, flying up folks left

834
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,479
Speaker 2: and right. Do you feel like that that's leveled out

835
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: some and kind of what's the timeframe that you think

836
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,840
Speaker 2: folks should maybe perhaps even like limit themselves to job hopping.

837
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 3: It does depend on mainly two factors. One is what

838
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 3: is your profession. The more in demand your profession is,

839
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 3: the more job hopping won't impact you as much because

840
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 3: you know companies really need you and they will be

841
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 3: willing to look past that. The second one is how

842
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 3: far along are you in your career. If you are,

843
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,240
Speaker 3: you know, first five to seven years in your career

844
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 3: and you hop to a few different places because you're

845
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 3: trying to figure out what you want to do, companies

846
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 3: are like, yes, of course, figuring out what you're going

847
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: to do, that makes total sense. But as we start

848
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 3: to move later into our career and we're managing people

849
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 3: now and we're setting business strategy, companies are looking for

850
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 3: people who are going to see things through from start

851
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 3: to finish and to build a reputation. And personally, I'm

852
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 3: someone who really sees that, Yeah, more of job hopping

853
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 3: is like under two years is kind of like where

854
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 3: where you're kind of starting to get job hopping territory.

855
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 3: When you get to three and four years, I would say,

856
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 3: that's just like a solid tenure and if you go,

857
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,240
Speaker 3: if you stay for like more than five, it's like WHOA,

858
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 3: You've been at the company forever. So at least that's

859
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 3: and it differs for different industries, of course, but if

860
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,239
Speaker 3: you are kind of viewing each job like you are,

861
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 3: like you would at least of like, you know, enrolling

862
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: in a four year college program or something like that,

863
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 3: as you're getting more advanced in your career, it is

864
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 3: really good to stay there for at least that amount

865
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 3: of time or possibly even longer, because the things that

866
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: that can do for your career, of the depth of

867
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 3: the relationships, the quality of the accomplishments, the reputation that

868
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 3: you can build can be pretty unparalleled. So it really

869
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 3: is a personal decision, but I would caution you against

870
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,680
Speaker 3: job hopping too much once you get later in your career.

871
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 1: Wonderful, Madeline, so much great information. Thank you so much

872
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: for taking the time to join us today. Where can

873
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: how to Money listeners find out more about you and

874
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: more about your book? That's coming out in just a

875
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: few days.

876
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 3: Absolutely, you can find it at reverseth search dot com

877
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 3: and you can find me as Madelineman on LinkedIn, self

878
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: Made Millennial on YouTube and Madeline man is my website

879
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 3: as well.

880
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: Awesome, Madelin, Thank you so much for talking with us today.

881
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,800
Speaker 1: Thank you all right, Matt. That was such a good conversation,

882
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: so much good information. And again, if you don't apply

883
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: for jobs regularly, which most people don't.

884
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 2: I definitely haven't a long long time, you better you

885
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: better not have. Then I wonder if that's why, Okay,

886
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 2: let's be honest, is that a part of why a

887
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 2: lot of what her message, a lot of what her

888
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: message contained, why it stood out to us because of

889
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: the fact that this isn't a space that you and

890
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 2: I were in that were walking around a whole lot, right,

891
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 2: Like we always were talking about investing, We're always talking

892
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 2: about debt, student loans, retirement, all of these like that's

893
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 2: our space. But when it comes to jobs and trying

894
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: to you know, launch a new career, trying to get

895
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 2: a new job.

896
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: Those topics are a little bit more foreign to us. Yeah,

897
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 1: but I think that's also just true for everyone out

898
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: there listening or for most people are like, I don't

899
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 1: remember the last time I applied for a job, unless

900
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: you are a job operator. And I bet there are

901
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: people out there listening who are like, but I'd like

902
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: to I don't really like where I'm at. I would

903
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: like to make more money. I'd like to pivot in

904
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: my career to do something a little more interesting or enjoyable. So, so,

905
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: what was your big takeaway from this combo of Madeline?

906
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 2: So? A lot of what she said stood out to me.

907
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: I've actually I took a ton of notes, but cifically

908
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 2: when she was talking about during the interview process, the

909
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 2: questions that you can ask by being a little bit inquisitive,

910
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: you can glean a ton of information that wasn't on.

911
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: The job listing.

912
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 2: Uh, it's like inception. It may yeah, it's I don't know.

913
00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:16,959
Speaker 2: It's like actually, it's like actually reading the tea leaves.

914
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, the job posting said that you're looking

915
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 2: for this, But just from talking with you for five

916
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 2: minutes the conversation before the conversation, I've learned that like

917
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: that you have emotionally tied yourself to this part of

918
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 2: what it is that you're looking for.

919
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: I like how she talked through that. She's just like,

920
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 1: they'll totally spill exactly what it.

921
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 2: Is that they're looking for, and your ability to tailor

922
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: your responses with that in mind, not that you're lying,

923
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 2: not that you're being deceitful, but your ability to highlight

924
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 2: how you are going to fit perfectly squarely in this square.

925
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: You know your square peg.

926
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: You're being a tech Yes, yeah, I think that's I

927
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: think that's brilliant. So what she said that, whether it's

928
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 2: that or whether it's Hey, what about some of the

929
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 2: other other candidates who have you who have you talked to?

930
00:48:57,800 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: You know, like, what have they missed? Well, let's not

931
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 2: be negative, not what are they missing, but what would

932
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: the ideal canidate have? And again, it gives you some

933
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: of that information that will allow yourself to be that

934
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: will allow you to put yourself in the best light.

935
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 1: That was my big takeaway. How about you? There are

936
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 1: a million things I could say in response to that,

937
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 1: but I think when it boils down to it, she said,

938
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 1: you are a product. Sell yourself and I was like, man,

939
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: that's true, and we're so hesitant, and I think there's

940
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,120
Speaker 1: a difference. You can be humble and sell yourself. I

941
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: think sometimes people think that it's one or the other.

942
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: You're a cocky, prideful persons jerk trying to sell yourself.

943
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: But I think you can do it with humility, like

944
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,280
Speaker 1: in a reasonable way. And she outlined actually a bunch

945
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: of tangible ways to do that in the job searching

946
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: or the job shopping process. So don't be afraid to

947
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 1: sell yourself, don't be afraid to talk about the things

948
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: that you can help that company with. You want to

949
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: be the solution. You want to be the advil to

950
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: that pain point right that they're experiencing. And if you

951
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: or maybe just the generic ibuprofen, right, mac is, let's

952
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: be honest, that will cost too much. But you have

953
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: the ability to do that for an employer. And if

954
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 1: you don't sell yourself, if you're unwilling to kind of

955
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: be a little more forthcoming about what you have to offer,

956
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 1: there's a chance you're gonna get lost in the shuffle

957
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: of a bunch of other people who want that same position.

958
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:22,720
Speaker 1: You do totally.

959
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: And there's a trick too, of doing that without being

960
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: super agreeable. Where Like you don't want to be so

961
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: polished that there's no grit, there's nothing there for the

962
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 2: interview were to lash Onto.

963
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: You want to be like, well, I like that, but

964
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: you ever thought about it like this. Yeah, yeah, the

965
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: ability to provide your own ideas as well. The beer

966
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 1: you and I enjoyed it today was called a I

967
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 1: don't know, I've never seen this word before. I think

968
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 1: it's called a phonio or fanio rising. It's an ancient

969
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: West Africa super grain. Oh okay, that's not the kind

970
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: of beer it is. I guess it's made with an

971
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: ancient West African super grain. See. Oh on the back,

972
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 1: it's a pale air. It's a pale ale by Brooklyn Brewery,

973
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: a limited release. You think so this was like a

974
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,800
Speaker 1: weedy pale ale. Yeah, it was, Yeah, totally, which I appreciate,

975
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: which gives it just like a little more body.

976
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 2: I think they're trying to highlight this bettermouthfeel, this ancient

977
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: grain or whatever.

978
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: But it's interesting, yeah, because so the hops kind of

979
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: took a back seat in this. I totally agree.

980
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 2: And and it's wake was certainly the sort of weedy backbone.

981
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: But the first thing I noticed that it was just

982
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:24,359
Speaker 2: the floral bouquet like it had and it says, it's

983
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 2: they want you to pull out fruity and citrus notes,

984
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:28,280
Speaker 2: but I pulled out peachee notes.

985
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: To me, it had like serious peachee vibes going on.

986
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,359
Speaker 1: Really enjoyed it. Glad you know I got to share

987
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: it today. Peaches. I don't think there were actually any

988
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: peaches made put into this beer. No, I don't think so.

989
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 1: Peach beers are phenomenal, like peach sours, the pesh oh,

990
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 1: they're one of the top. To me, they're one of

991
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: the best roots to put in. It was a lot

992
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: for me.

993
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,399
Speaker 2: It's blueberry. You know, I love blueberry sours. I think

994
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: raspberries blueberry sour. Yeah, raspberries a number one, cherries a

995
00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: number two. Peaches of three, I forget about cherry. Yeah, no,

996
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 2: cherry's got to.

997
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: Be number one. Cherries are so perfect for me.

998
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 2: Right, So, I guess we need to have some barely

999
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 2: hours come back to your stal soon. It's been a minute,

1000
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 2: but you can find our show us up on the

1001
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 2: website at howtomoney dot com. We'll make sure to link

1002
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 2: to some of Madeline's different resources where it is that

1003
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,439
Speaker 2: you can buy her book that comes out next week,

1004
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 2: which is called Reverse the search.

1005
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: It's a good one and uh, all right, buddy, that's

1006
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 1: gonna be it. So until next time, best friends out,

1007
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: Best friends Out,