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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

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Speaker 2: We've got a marvelous couple hours for you tonight. In

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Speaker 2: great information. Donna Anderson back with us. Noted author of course.

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Speaker 2: Her website is lovefraud dot com, a website that teaches

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Speaker 2: people to recognize and recover from sociopaths. She's also the

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Speaker 2: host of the new true Love Fraud Stories podcast, in

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Speaker 2: which survivors tell what it's really like to be involved

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Speaker 2: with the sociopaths. It's a seduction of thrilling eventual signs

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Speaker 2: of relationship weirdness and the heartbreaking brutal discard as well.

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Speaker 2: Don Anderson back on Coast to Coast. Donna, how have you.

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Speaker 3: Been very good? Thank you, George, Thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be back with your audience.

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Speaker 2: It's time for you to tell us again how you

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Speaker 2: got involved in studying psychopaths and sociopaths.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I a married one, and believe me, I certainly

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Speaker 3: had no idea when I encountered this person who just

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Speaker 3: seemed to be so magnetic and so charming and such

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Speaker 3: a wonderful entrepreneur and talking about being a wonderful success

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Speaker 3: and essentially it was all a lie, and he got

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Speaker 3: involved with me in order to drain me of my money.

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Speaker 3: This man took a quarter million dollars from me, and

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Speaker 3: while he's doing that, he's cheating with plenty of other

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Speaker 3: women anywhere. Well I knew of at least six during

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Speaker 3: our marriage. There may have been more, and I found

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Speaker 3: evidence of like twenty five or thirty women over the

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Speaker 3: previous years. God, it was outrageous. And the guy turned

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Speaker 3: out to be a psychopath. And I had absolutely no idea.

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Speaker 3: And I was an educated person, a magazine editor and

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Speaker 3: a commercial copywriter and running a business, and I was

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Speaker 3: so because of that experience, I thought it was important

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Speaker 3: to tell people not only what happened to me, but

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Speaker 3: about the millions of these people who live among us.

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Speaker 2: Donald, what is the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath?

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Speaker 2: And is one worse than the other?

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, it gets kind of technical, but the main

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Speaker 3: I use the word sociopath as an umbrella term for

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Speaker 3: all the disorders in which people manipulate and exploit others,

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Speaker 3: and which is exactly how the word intended to be

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Speaker 3: used when it was coined, like back in the thirties,

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Speaker 3: but sociopath is no longer an official definition. Some people

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Speaker 3: use it as a synonym for antisocial personality disorder. So

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Speaker 3: if you look at the technical definitions, there's antisocial personality disorder,

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Speaker 3: and that's essentially somebody who is like dangerous. These people

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Speaker 3: like don't follow the law, they're deceitful, and they're lying

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Speaker 3: and they're aggressive. But then if you look at this

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Speaker 3: narcissistic personality disorder, that is, as you would think, somebody

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Speaker 3: who's self centered. They've got this grandiose self of sense

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Speaker 3: of self importance, they need excessive admiration, they've got a

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Speaker 3: sense of entitlement, and believe it or not, psychopath is

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Speaker 3: not an official diagnosis at all among the clinicians. It's

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Speaker 3: not recognized by the American Psychiatric Association. But a psychopath

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Speaker 3: is essentially pretty much the same thing. These are people

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Speaker 3: who are glib and superficial, like my ex husband was.

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Speaker 3: They tend to be They have a lack of remorse

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Speaker 3: or guilt. They have no empathy, and neither do the narcissists.

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Speaker 3: So you know, unfortunately there's a lot of overlap among

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Speaker 3: these disorders, and for most of us, we don't really

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Speaker 3: need to know the fine points of what the disorders are.

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Speaker 3: And that's why I refer to all of them collectively

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Speaker 3: as sociopaths. And the idea is we need to know

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Speaker 3: that approximately twelve percent of the population have one of

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Speaker 3: these disorders and kind of have a general awareness of

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Speaker 3: what they do, which is essentially lie and manipulate and

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Speaker 3: take advantage. Although when you meet them they seem wonderful,

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Speaker 3: but we need to know that they're out there so

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Speaker 3: that we can avoid them.

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Speaker 2: And you'll tell us later on tonight ton some tips

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Speaker 2: on how to see these folks. Yes, absolutely, I think

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Speaker 2: back now, I think my aunt out of Boston was

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Speaker 2: married to definitely a sociopath. Are serial killers psychopaths?

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Speaker 3: Probably yes, And you know, that's the thing to keep

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Speaker 3: in mind is that serial killers are a very very

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Speaker 3: very small minority of people with this disorder. Plenty of

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Speaker 3: psychopaths or anti so like never commit any crimes at all,

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Speaker 3: or put it this way, they never get caught committing.

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Speaker 2: A crime, or they don't physically kill somebody or something, right, they.

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Speaker 3: Are not necessarily violent. You know, plenty of people are

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Speaker 3: emotionally violent and relational relationally violent. You know, they take

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Speaker 3: advantage of you, which is the main thing. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's their objective. The core thing to understand about these

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Speaker 3: people is that they view the rest of us as pawns,

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Speaker 3: as objects to be used for whatever it is that

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Speaker 3: they may want, and they essentially the prime problem is

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Speaker 3: that they None of these people have an authentic ability

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Speaker 3: to love others. You know, they just can't do it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's what's missing in them. They don't have

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Speaker 3: the ability to be caring and to worry about somebody

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Speaker 3: else's well being. They're all self centered and they're all

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Speaker 3: just using people to get what they want.

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Speaker 2: What happened to them as children to get to this point.

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Speaker 3: Well, sometimes they had bad experiences as children, and sometimes

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Speaker 3: they didn't. So the thing to understand about these disorders

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Speaker 3: is that they are highly genetic.

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Speaker 2: Well, is a sociopath born or developed both?

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Speaker 3: Okay, it is a combination of nature and nurture. So

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Speaker 3: somebody who would be diagnosed with either psychopathy or antisocial

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Speaker 3: personality disorder and probably narcissism as well, probably has a

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Speaker 3: genetic connection. They're probably born with a genetic predisposition, and

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Speaker 3: that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to come to fruition.

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Speaker 3: But what tends to happen is that they do have

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Speaker 3: this genetic connection and then they get bad parenting or

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Speaker 3: they grow up in a bad environment, which is understandable

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Speaker 3: because you know, if you get the genes for this disorder,

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Speaker 3: typically it means that you know, one of your parents

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Speaker 3: may be disordered, or it can be back further on

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Speaker 3: the family tree. But if you've got a disordered parent,

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Speaker 3: then you know they make terrible parents, and so you

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Speaker 3: know they can be abusive, or they can be manipulative,

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Speaker 3: or they cannot impose any discipline whatsoever, and let you

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Speaker 3: run rampant on whatever you want to do. So what

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Speaker 3: happens then is that the person is born with this predisposition,

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Speaker 3: a genetic predisposition, and then they get the bad parenting

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Speaker 3: or they grow up in a difficult environment, and that's

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Speaker 3: how you end up with associopath. Now, there are cases

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Speaker 3: where people are born with a genetic predisposition and the

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Speaker 3: parents are fine. The parents, you know, do everything right.

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Speaker 3: You know, they bring them to therapy, they try and

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Speaker 3: get help. But sometimes the dose that they've gotten it's

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Speaker 3: called a genetic insult. You know, the genetic predisposition is

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Speaker 3: so strong that it simply cannot be overcome.

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Speaker 2: Are sociopaths donna successful people?

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Speaker 3: They can be. Now, there's plenty of people, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of interesting. There's a guy by the name

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Speaker 3: of doctor Robert Hare who is the guru of psychopathy,

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Speaker 3: and he's the one that developed an instrument, a test,

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Speaker 3: essentially an evaluation form of how to determine someone's level

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Speaker 3: of disorder. And typically he did his work in prisons.

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Speaker 3: You know, he did a lot of where he started out.

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Speaker 3: He started out as a prison psychologist and would analyze

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Speaker 3: all these people and that's how he developed his test.

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Speaker 3: But he said that if he couldn't have access to prisoners,

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Speaker 3: the next place he would look was in the corporate offices.

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Speaker 3: And he found that among corporate executives, like for example,

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Speaker 3: specifically for psychopaths people, the experts say that there's about

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Speaker 3: one percent of the population meets that definition of disorder

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Speaker 3: for a psychopath. However, they did research and found out

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Speaker 3: that three point two of corporate executives meet the definition

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Speaker 3: of a psychoapot.

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Speaker 2: Three times the population exactly exactly.

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Speaker 3: So you know, there's stories maybe your listeners remember En

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Speaker 3: Run or Health South. Yeah, oh sure, Yeah, Well, you know,

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Speaker 3: the guys lead in those corporations probably were psychopaths, and

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Speaker 3: you know, psychopaths loved to play with other people's money.

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Speaker 3: In fact, there's also research that shows that the two

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Speaker 3: thousand and eight financial crisis was caused by psychopaths in

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Speaker 3: the financial industry playing with other people's money. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: I mean, they can certainly go high up in corporations.

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Speaker 2: Now, what about the narcissists.

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Speaker 1: What is that?

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Speaker 3: Well, narcissists are similar in fact, you know, that's why

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Speaker 3: this is so confusing, because essentially narcissism is a component

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Speaker 3: of psychopathy. They yes, they do, and that's what makes

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Speaker 3: it so hard to really understand, you know, what the

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Speaker 3: differentiation is and why in my view, it's useless. But

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Speaker 3: the narcissist has this you know, self importance, that's the

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Speaker 3: main thing. They have this grandiose sense that they're the

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Speaker 3: center of the universe, and they have these fantasies about like,

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Speaker 3: you know, unlimited success and beauty and being handsome. They

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Speaker 3: believe that they're unique and special, and they have a

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Speaker 3: sense of entitlement. You know. So it may sound pretty

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Speaker 3: much like what I was talking about with a psychopath,

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Speaker 3: and that's true. You know, it's kind of interesting because

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Speaker 3: these days a lot of people are talking about narcissist,

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Speaker 3: which is really helpful. I think at least there's more

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Speaker 3: of an awareness that they're out there than when it

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Speaker 3: happened to me, which was back in nineteen ninety six.

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Speaker 3: But in my view, a lot of people are using

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Speaker 3: the term narcissist to cover all of these people, and

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Speaker 3: I think it's simply because you know, there's so much

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Speaker 3: baggage around psychopath or sociopath, because everybody thinks they're a

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Speaker 3: serial killer, and so people are saying that they're narcissists

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Speaker 3: when in my view, they're probably dealing with someone who

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Speaker 3: is antisocial personality disorder, but that's just too scary to say,

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Speaker 3: you know, so they're calling them a narcissist.

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Speaker 2: Do women's become sociopaths psychopaths are narcissist as.

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Speaker 3: Well, Yes they can, and although it takes a different form,

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Speaker 3: and plus there's not as not quite as many of them.

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Speaker 3: It's about a three to one ratio where there's like

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Speaker 3: three males who have these disorders compared to females. But

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Speaker 3: the women tend to be extremely relationally abusive. They abuse

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Speaker 3: their spouses, they abuse their families, their siblings, their children.

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Speaker 3: In fact, I can't tell you how many times I

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Speaker 3: talk to people who get involved with a romantic partner

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Speaker 3: who is disordered, and as we talk, we realized that

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Speaker 3: part of the reason is because their parents were disordered.

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Speaker 3: And unfortunately, you know, if you're abused as a child,

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Speaker 3: it makes you more vulnerable to hooking up with someone

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Speaker 3: who is disordered themselves.

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Speaker 2: And the sociopath, the psychopath and the narcissists. Can they

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Speaker 2: be cured. No, that's it for them.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, you know, And that's what's so important to

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Speaker 3: understand is that, you know, you can't take this person

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Speaker 3: to therapy because they're not going to be cured. They're

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Speaker 3: never going to learn to have a heart. You know,

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Speaker 3: they're never going to learn to be able to look.

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Speaker 2: So they don't have empathy.

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Speaker 1: Do they No?

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Speaker 3: No, And that's why it's so important to know about this.

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Speaker 3: And that was actually the point of my book that

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Speaker 3: you mentioned senior sociopaths, because there is this rumor going

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Speaker 3: around the mental health field that sociopaths burn out. Okay,

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Speaker 3: I mean this is actually taught in psychiatry textbooks that

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Speaker 3: you know, once these people get into their forties or so,

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Speaker 3: then you know they're not as bad. They mellow out

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Speaker 3: and it's not true, you know, which is exactly what

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Speaker 3: I documented in my book. In fact, what happens is

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Speaker 3: they actually get worse. And one of the reasons is that,

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Speaker 3: you know, most well, all of them anti socials and psychopaths,

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Speaker 3: they can pretend to be normal when they want to,

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Speaker 3: and they do that, you know, when they're in the

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Speaker 3: process of reeling you in and seducing you. But you know,

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Speaker 3: once they get older, they can't be bothered doing that anymore,

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Speaker 3: so the charade stops and you just see their ugly, manipulative,

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Speaker 3: exploitive self all the time.

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Speaker 2: In most cases, does it just come on or do

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Speaker 2: they actually know what they're doing.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've heard from people who claim to be psychopaths

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Speaker 3: or antisocial and they are well aware of their disorder.

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Speaker 3: In fact, often they're proud of it, you know, they

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Speaker 3: view themselves as superior. They think. Several of them have

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Speaker 3: told me, you know, we're the next evolution, and they

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Speaker 3: are proud of the fact that they have the ability

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Speaker 3: to manipulate others and that they're taking advantage of us,

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Speaker 3: and they view those of us with a heart and

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Speaker 3: a conscience as weak and see a heart and a

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Speaker 3: conscience as something to be exploited.

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Speaker 2: What happens to the victim of the person who's been exploited.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, that's essentially what my podcast is about, you know,

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Speaker 3: because it's very hard to describe to somebody what the

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Speaker 3: experience is about. So in my podcast, what I do

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Speaker 3: is I interview people and let them tell their stories,

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Speaker 3: and they talk about, you know, how this person showered

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Speaker 3: them with affection and then how they betrayed them, and

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Speaker 3: it can be devastating. I know it took me a

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Speaker 3: while to recover from this, and you know, people end

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Speaker 3: up with PTSD, They end up with their lives turned

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Speaker 3: upside down. They end up, you know, not will, not

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Speaker 3: able to trust anybody, and it's it can be a

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Speaker 3: wrecking ball through your life. So that's why it's so

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Speaker 3: important for people to understand, because you know, once you

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Speaker 3: get involved with someone like this, it can be very

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Speaker 3: difficult to extract yourself, you know, especially if you marry

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Speaker 3: them and have children, then you're stuck with this person

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Speaker 3: for life. I mean, even if you divorce them, do

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Speaker 3: things happen. I mean, you're connected, you know, because of

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Speaker 3: the children, and because of the genetics, the children may

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Speaker 3: be disordered, and you know, and they just have this

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Speaker 3: control over you even when you get rid of them.

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Speaker 3: So it's very very difficult, as Donna, No, you know,

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Speaker 3: and and that's the whole point is that, you know,

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Speaker 3: when they have children, essentially, they often view a couple

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Speaker 3: of things. Either they abandon or ignore the children, or

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Speaker 3: they view the view the children as little mini meeds

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Speaker 3: and you know, they want to control everything about the children,

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Speaker 3: or they view the children as as trophies and their property.

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Speaker 3: So I mean, in some cases they're capable of, you know,

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Speaker 3: taking care of the children, but it's kind of like

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Speaker 3: taking care of your car. You know, you feed and

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Speaker 3: dress them and and you know, send them to school,

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Speaker 3: but you don't really have any concern about them as

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Speaker 3: people and about how they're doing, and about how they

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Speaker 3: grow up and what their needs are and and there's

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Speaker 3: no emotional connection whatsoever. So having a sociopath or a

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Speaker 3: narcissist as a parent is is very very difficult and

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Speaker 3: quite frankly, quite damaging to the people who experience it.

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Speaker 2: Donna, when you were with one of these individuals. What

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Speaker 2: becomes that aha moment where you realize there's something wrong.

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Speaker 3: Here that can take a lot of different forms. In

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Speaker 3: my case, it was fairly obvious because I knew that

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Speaker 3: this guy was like spending all my money and didn't

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Speaker 3: seem to be upset about it. So I was upset

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Speaker 3: about that, But in all honesty, I didn't realize it

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Speaker 3: was a scam until I was talking to the other

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Speaker 3: women because I kind of suspected that he was cheating.

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Speaker 3: And then he took a quarter million dollars from me,

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Speaker 3: and then when I finally left him, and the reason

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Speaker 3: I left him was I discovered that he had a

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Speaker 3: child with another woman during our marriage, So that's why

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Speaker 3: I left him. But then I finally started going through

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Speaker 3: all his paper. I mean, this man was a packrack

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Speaker 3: and everything was around on the floor in the office

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Speaker 3: that I built for him in my basement, And so

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Speaker 3: I found the information for this other woman, and I

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Speaker 3: called her up and I said, you know, I'm donning.

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Speaker 2: Did she know about you?

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Speaker 3: She did, but she didn't know. She suspected that he

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Speaker 3: was married to me because he told her I was

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Speaker 3: just an employee. But I called her up and I said,

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Speaker 3: I'm donnah Anderson and I'm James Montgomery's wife, and I'd

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Speaker 3: like to suggest that you don't give him any more money.

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Speaker 3: And she said it's too late. I already gave him

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Speaker 3: ninety two thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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Speaker 1: one am Eastern, and go to Coast to coastam dot

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