1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosseol from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 2: Time and again. Donald Trump has promised to exact revenge 3 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: against those involved in the cases against him. 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 3: Look, when this election is over, based on what they've done, 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 3: I would have every right to go after them. 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: And it's easy. 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 3: And sometimes revenge can be justified, though I have to 8 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 3: be honest, you know, sometimes it can. 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: And the President appears to be keeping those promises to 10 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 2: the FBI. In a highly unusual move, his Justice Department 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 2: is putting together a list of all FBI employees who 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 2: worked on the criminal investigations into Trump or the January 13 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,160 Speaker 2: sixth investigations. So two groups of FBI agents are going 14 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: to federal court to prevent the government from disclosing the 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: names on that list, fearing it could target them for 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: a time allation. January sixth writers who were pardoned by 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 2: Trump have already taken to social media to identify prosecutors 18 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 2: and agents who worked on their cases. 19 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 4: But I will tell you now it's our cher. 20 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: One of the lawsuits sites these comments by Enrique Tario, 21 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,199 Speaker 2: the former leader of the Proud Boys, who was serving 22 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 2: a twenty two year sentence before his pardon the. 23 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 4: People who did this, they need to feel the heat. 24 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 4: They need to be put behind bars, and they need 25 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 4: to be prosecuted. 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: My guest is national security law expert Brad Moss, a 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: partner at Mark Zaid. He's representing the seven FBI agents 28 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: and the FBI Association suing the Justice Department. Brad tell 29 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 2: us what's been happening at the FBI. 30 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: So, what's been transpiring at the moment with the FBI 31 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: and the Justice Department is that a set of instructions 32 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: came down from the White House pretty much starting from 33 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: day one, to identify everyone involved in associated with the 34 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: prosecutions and investigations not only into Donald Trump, but also 35 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: everyone who was prosecuted for the January sixth riots and 36 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: the seditious attempts. The set of prosecutors from the January 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: six cases that specifically were on Jack Smith's team that 38 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,119 Speaker 1: went after Donald Trump. Those individuals apparently were already fired 39 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: without cause, which is something that will likely be subject 40 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: to litigation. But the more immediate and more widespread concern 41 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: is that the Just Department ordered the FBI to compile 42 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 1: a list identify everyone within the FBI Special Agents, Technical 43 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: Assistance Support staff. Fred Dicks's examiners everything compile lists and 44 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: send it to the Justice Department to identify everyone involved 45 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: in any of the January sixth investigations and prosecutions, with 46 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: the obvious concern being not only this it's going to 47 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: be shared with the Just Department, but also with the 48 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: White House, and that these names will be made public. 49 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: The lawsuits that were filed yesterday, there's two different lawsuits, 50 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: one of which i'm a list of attorney on are 51 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 1: designed to keep those names of those FBI personnel private 52 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: and anonymous, just like it's always done for government officials 53 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: who are not otherwise public facing individuals. 54 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: The FBI said it had taken steps to protect agents, 55 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: including identifying them by employee IDs rather than by name, 56 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 2: though I'm not sure how much that helps, and that 57 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: list has already been turned over to the Justice Department. 58 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: So the list of the unique identifiers was already turned over. 59 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 1: According to the reporting, and the way I at least 60 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: view the actions by FBI leadership was to try to 61 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: slow walk things. Slow this down, because yes, the Just 62 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: Department can go back into the system and start matching 63 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: up these identifiers to individual names, but that'll take time. 64 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: That'll take resources. It's my numbing work. It is a 65 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: question of how much time and resources the Justice Breyone 66 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: wants to put into doing that. So part of this 67 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: was the FBI just try to slow walk it. But 68 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: part of it was also a recognition, no doubt by 69 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: the existing leadership that if they did not comply in 70 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: some manner, the White House would simply order them purged, 71 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: and they would continue purging leadership officials until they found 72 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: someone willing to comply. Think of the Saturday Night massacre 73 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: drama from the seventies and ultimately Robert Bork implementing orders 74 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: for no other reason than to just stop the blood letting. 75 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 1: So that's where things stand at the moment. But even 76 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: with those identifiers, and even if the Just Department identifies 77 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: the individuals from those identifiers, no action has been taken 78 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: to publicly disseminate that information, and we're working to make 79 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: sure that does not happen. 80 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: The acting Director, Brian Driscoll, in a memo, said the 81 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: list covered thousands of FBI employees around the country, including him, 82 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: and by the way, in a memo today, Deputy Attorney 83 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:01,840 Speaker 2: General Emil Bove accuses Driscoll of insight ordination I'm sure 84 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 2: that'll find its way into a lawsuit. So Brett did 85 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 2: all the thousands of FBI employees fill out that detailed 86 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: three page questionnaire they got, which included questions about their 87 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 2: specific role in the January sixth investigations. 88 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: So that was the questionnaire that was originally going to 89 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: be used to identify everyone involved in our understanding. It's 90 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: basically that majority of FBI leadership told rank and file 91 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: that they were going to handle it, not to have 92 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: the individual employees fill this out, and that the various 93 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: special Agents in charge and the assistant special Agents in 94 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: charge in AINC leadership took it on themselves to collect 95 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: the data and to provide those unique identifier numbers to 96 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: doj But this remains the concern is what is the 97 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: purpose of this, where are they going with this, and 98 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,159 Speaker 1: what is the White House plan to do with this information? 99 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 5: Because remember one. 100 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: Of the first things Donald Trump did was pardon everyone 101 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: convicted for their actions tied to January sixth, the Proud Boy, 102 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 1: including the healthkeepers, all these violent militants who had gone 103 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: in with a plan to take down the government to 104 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: install Donald Trump aftery laws in twenty twenty, those individuals 105 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,559 Speaker 1: are now publicly threatening the FBI officials who went after 106 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: them and who investigated them as part of those prosecutions, 107 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,839 Speaker 1: and there's a real threat to those FBI officials' lives 108 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: and their safety and see their family members if their 109 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: names get released in your lawsuit. 110 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: Are you concerned about dismissals or are you only concerned 111 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 2: about retaliation? 112 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: Right now, this is strictly about keeping the anonymity of 113 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: the names of these various officials because no other action 114 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: has been taken to actually fire these personnel. We're not 115 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,720 Speaker 1: there yet on bringing a challenge to it. It's premature. 116 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: If DOJ does go through with that, If there is 117 00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: a mass purge of personnel, our lawsuit could obviously be 118 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: amended and updated to address that as well. 119 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: Let's talk about the grounds for your suit. Are you 120 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 2: suing under the First Amendment and the Federal Privacy Act? 121 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: So, yeah, the First and Fifth Amendment constitutional protections due 122 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: process for these individuals, particularly the stigma of being defamed 123 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,679 Speaker 1: essentially an accused of miscarriage of justice by the White 124 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: House if their names are publicly released. First Amendment retaliation 125 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: in the sense that this is all about the fact 126 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: that they are not politically aligned and ideologically aligned with 127 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: the White House, which for civil servant is not something 128 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: they're supposed to be doing. They're not supposed to be political. 129 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: But also the Privacy Act, which puts strict limits on 130 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: what agencies can do with the personal identifying information of 131 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: personnel and where it can and cannot be disseminated absent 132 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: employee consent, which, to be clear, these personnel are not 133 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: giving their consent for this personal identifying information to be 134 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: disseminated outside of the FBI, let alone to the public. 135 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: Are you asking for a temper restraining order? 136 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: Yes, emotion for a temporary restraining order was filed yesterday 137 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: as well in an initial hearing will be held tomorrow, 138 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: Thursday morning, at ten thirty am in the courtroom of 139 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: Judge Cobb in DC. 140 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 2: I'm curious about whether a lot of people from the 141 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: FBI have approached you with their concerns about this. 142 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: Yes, we've been approached by a myriad an untold number 143 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: of personnel across the FBI, not just in DC, but 144 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: across the country who we are representing as a part 145 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: of this collective group. There is a select number of 146 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: individuals who have agreed to be the plaintiffs in this action, 147 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: we're keeping their identities protected at the moment that the 148 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 1: court agreed to allow them to proceed, as John Doe's 149 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: Jane does for now, we're also working to make sure 150 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: to try to keep their identities secret from the government itself, sadly, 151 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: to try to prevent and avoid retaliation for having engaged 152 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 1: in affection. But yes, also the Agent Association is also 153 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: a listed plaintiff, which represents agents across the country and 154 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: has an obvious organizational interest in protecting its personnel from 155 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: this political retribution. 156 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: Do you think you'll be able to get to meet 157 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 2: the high standards for a temporary restraining order? 158 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: We do, and that is certainly something we're prepared to 159 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: start briefing out immediately. That as our understanding is that 160 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: the hearing tomorrow, if nothing else, will set out an 161 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 1: expedited briefing schedule. We want this addressed immediately. We cannot 162 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: wait with the way this administration is moving and just 163 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: this reckless, you know, move fast and break things attitude 164 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: that Elon Musk and Donald Trump have. Time is of 165 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: the essence, and every day that passes is another day 166 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: that these names could be disseminated to the public. So 167 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: everything is about moving quickly right now to halt any 168 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: dissemination until these legal issues can. 169 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 5: Be resolved through standard briefing. 170 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: There have been accusations from former Trump officials that FBI 171 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 2: agents went beyond their authority when they executed the search 172 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: warrants at Mara a Lago. Was there any litigation or 173 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: court decisions about those accusations. 174 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: There is no merit to that. Every challenge regarding the 175 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: lawfulness of the effidavits, the lawfulness of the searches did 176 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: not even fly in motions before Judge Cannon. There has 177 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: been zero validated claim that these officials went beyond the 178 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: scope of their authority or otherwise violated Donald Trump's Fourth 179 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: Amendment rights with respect to his actual. 180 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 5: Property that was at mar Lago. 181 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: This is political hatchet jobs, smearing by individuals trying to 182 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,680 Speaker 1: color it as it being an issue of misconduct. If 183 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: they had actual, verified claims of misconduct against any of 184 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: these officials, they could bring it through the normal administrative process. 185 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: They don't want to do that because they know those 186 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: claims won't hold up to scrutiny. 187 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 2: And so big picture, what you're saying basically is these 188 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: are FBI agents who are doing their jobs. 189 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 6: We're doing what they were assigned to. 190 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: Do, correct and not just you know, I don't ever 191 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 1: want to go with the we're just doing our jobs 192 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: lined because that harkens back to World War Two. These 193 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: were people following lawful orders to investigate potential crime in 194 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 1: the sense of the attack on the capital of January sixth, 195 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: as well as the unauthorized retention of classified documents at 196 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: mar A Lago. Those are existing crimes. There was a 197 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: standard investigation. The only quote unquote misconduct they did was 198 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: they dared to be part of an investigation into Donald Trump. 199 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: And the point that this White House is trying to 200 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: push is that people like Donald Trump and his friends 201 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: and allies are above the law and can never be investigated. 202 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 2: The FBI, in its many years, there's been controversies. Have 203 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: you ever heard anything like this, you know, seeking retribution? 204 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: This makes you think of, you know, the Hoover days 205 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 1: in terms of the idea of such blanket aupliticization of 206 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: the just Department of the FBI. We moved beyond that 207 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: after Hoover for a reason. The civil Service that its 208 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,479 Speaker 1: protections exist. 209 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 7: For a reason. 210 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 1: We're trying to move beyond the flaws in the States 211 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: of the part of our path in this country, not 212 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: just in the FBI, but in the political system itself. 213 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 5: To allow Donald. 214 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: Trump to do what he's trying to do would cripple 215 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: the existing system and bring us back to the days 216 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: of Tammany Hall and blanket abuses of power. We cannot 217 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: go back to that. That is why these lawsuits are 218 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: beinging brought. That is why lawyers like us are standing 219 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: up to protect these individuals. 220 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 2: Finally, during her confirmation hearing, Pam Bondi, who is now 221 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: the Attorney General, assured Senator is that she wouldn't retaliate 222 00:12:56,800 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: against Justice Department staff simply because they've been a designed 223 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 2: to cases involving Trump. Cash Ptel echoed a similar pledge. 224 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 2: Do you have any faith or hope that now that 225 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:11,599 Speaker 2: she's in charge that this might stop? 226 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:18,440 Speaker 1: None those promises, those reassurances mean nothing more than the 227 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:24,119 Speaker 1: reassurances given by certain Supreme Court nominees about the sanctity 228 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:24,719 Speaker 1: of Roe v. 229 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 5: Wade. 230 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: They're politicized, you know, cover your your end statements that 231 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: were made to get appointed, to get confirmed, that they 232 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: will happily, you know, circumvent and throw out the window. 233 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: Once they're in power knowing that there's no one who's 234 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: going to do anything to stop them, certainly not the 235 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: existing majority in the House or Senate. They have no 236 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: interest in going after these officials if they end up 237 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: doing what they promised they would not do. And those 238 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: officials like Pam Bondy know. 239 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 2: That We'll check back with you after the hearing tomorrow. 240 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:04,079 Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Brad. That's national security expert Brad Moss 241 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,959 Speaker 2: of mark zaid. The Trump administration has started flying detained 242 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: migrants on military aircraft to Guantanamo Bay. Last month, President 243 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 2: Donald Trump signed an executive order directing the expansion of 244 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: a migrant detention center at the military installation to full capacity, 245 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 2: saying it could hold up to thirty thousand. Homeland Security 246 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 2: Secretary Christy Nomes said the base will hold the worst 247 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 2: of those detained for entering the US illegally. 248 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 8: We are building out our capacity at Guantanamo Bay right now. 249 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 8: That is where the worst are going. We have only 250 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 8: a handful of individuals there now, but we will build 251 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 8: out those facilities to have a capacity there to meet 252 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 8: our needs. 253 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: Hundreds of US service members arrived ahead of the detainees 254 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 2: to set up a tent city. Here's Marine Corps First 255 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 2: Sergeant Johnny Stone. 256 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 6: This is what we trained for. 257 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 1: We at a moment's notice, we get the call. We 258 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: were in the field training for something like this, and 259 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: it happened. 260 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 4: We stay ready and we're ready to go, and here 261 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 4: we are. 262 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 2: Immigrant rights groups have warned that moving migrants to Guantanamo 263 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: would bypass legal protections, so the move is certain to 264 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: lead to lawsuits. Joining me is immigration law expert Leon Fresco, 265 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: a partner at Holland and Knight and the former head 266 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: of the Office of Immigration Litigation in the Obama administration. 267 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: Leon Guantanamo is well known, perhaps infamous, for housing terrorism suspects. 268 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: Has it ever been used to house migrants? How much 269 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 2: might this cost? 270 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 7: There have been many periods of time, most prevalently in 271 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 7: the nineties under Bill Clinton, where Juantanamo was used as 272 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 7: a facility that held migrants. But typically the way that 273 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 7: worked was migrants were detained at sea and they were 274 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 7: said to Guantanamo so that they were not allowed to 275 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 7: enter the United States because there was what was called 276 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 7: the wet foot Dry Food policy at that time, which 277 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 7: allow of Cubans too. If they entered the United States, 278 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 7: they could stay and get lawful permanent residency. So the 279 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 7: idea was to interdict the migrants at sea and place 280 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 7: them in Guantanamo until something could be figured out if 281 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 7: they were actually genuine asylum seekers or if they could 282 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 7: be repatriated back to Cuba. And also the Haitians ended 283 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 7: up also being detained at Guantanamo. This would be a 284 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 7: new phenomenon which would not be interdicting migrants at sea, 285 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 7: but would actually be taking planes and flying migrants from 286 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 7: the interior of the United States into Guantanamo, which yes, 287 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 7: becomes a much more expensive operation because you have to 288 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 7: have all of those planes flying into Ontonamo. You also 289 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 7: have to run the detention facility. You have to move 290 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 7: military folks who were not in Ontanamo for the purpose 291 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 7: of running a thirty thousand person detention facility for that purpose, 292 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 7: and so all of that obviously is going to require 293 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 7: increased appropriate but then there will also be legal challenges 294 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 7: about things like access to council and what they're doing, 295 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 7: what kind of individuals are going to be there. Will 296 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 7: it only be people with final orders of removal that 297 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 7: they're trying to execute removal orders for which, by the way, 298 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 7: also makes things logistically more challenging because then you have 299 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 7: to round up enough people from a specific country to 300 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 7: put on a specific plane that will leave Gantanamo and 301 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 7: go to a specific country. But nevertheless, if it's that 302 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 7: there will be less legal challenges. But if it's people 303 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 7: with pending cases, then the question is how is a 304 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 7: lawyer supposed to work with a client who is detained 305 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 7: in Wantanamo? And that will provide a lot of fodder 306 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 7: for legal challenges. 307 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 6: Yeah. 308 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 2: Amy Fisher of Amnesty International said sending immigrants to Guantanamo 309 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 2: is a profoundly cruel, costly move. It will cut people 310 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: off from lawyers, family and support systems, throwing them into 311 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,639 Speaker 2: a black call so the US government can continue to 312 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: violate their human rights out of sight. I guess you'd 313 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 2: expect a lawsuit very quickly. 314 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 5: Yes. 315 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 7: I think the complication is going to be the procedural 316 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 7: posture of the people being placed in Guantanamo. If they 317 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 7: are people whose process has been completed and they have 318 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 7: no rights, and the issue is just we want to 319 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 7: detain them in Wantanamo to clear up the current detention 320 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 7: space we have for people impending proceedings, then I can 321 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,679 Speaker 7: see this being able to function much longer than if 322 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 7: you're actually sending people to Wantanamo who are impending proceedings, 323 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 7: because there, I think unless they provide some very new 324 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 7: and innovative ways for lawyers to contact detainees, it's just 325 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 7: almost impossible. I don't know how you would represent someone 326 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 7: in Wantanamo. It would be very, very difficult to do. 327 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 7: And so I think that's going to be a complicated issue. 328 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 2: There are trumps threats working. Are most of the countries 329 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 2: that we're going to take back their citizens are they 330 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:11,639 Speaker 2: now accepting them? 331 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: Well? 332 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 7: The ones that have changed from positions of just maybe 333 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 7: let's say two three months ago are Venezuela theoretically. I 334 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,960 Speaker 7: mean there's announcement saying that they're changing and they're going 335 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 7: to accept US detainees from Venezuela to be repatriated back 336 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 7: to Venezuela. 337 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:30,399 Speaker 5: And India has. 338 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 7: Also said the same thing that they would accept people 339 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,639 Speaker 7: that are going to be deported to India. There was 340 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 7: the famous skirmish with the Colombian president, but Colombia was 341 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 7: already accepting US removals, and the same thing with Brazil. 342 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 7: And so here's the point to the extaid that there 343 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 7: have been skirmishes all of those skirmishes have ended with 344 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 7: those countries saying they will accept people the United States 345 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 7: is trying to remove. But there are still countries. I mean, 346 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 7: the big ones are going to be China and Cuba. 347 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 7: Are they going to accept people that the United States 348 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 7: is trying to remove. 349 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 5: So we'll wait and see on that. 350 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 2: Now, we've talked before about the protections for Venezuelans in 351 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 2: the US, and the Homeland Security Secretary Christin Nomes says 352 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:17,479 Speaker 2: she's going to terminate temporary removal protections for several hundred 353 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 2: thousand Venezuelans in the US. That's like nearly three hundred 354 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: and fifty thousand immigrants. 355 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 7: Yeah, there are two trunches of temporary protective status because 356 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 7: it's just been a sort of scattershot order system that's happened. 357 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 7: So there's about three hundred and fifty thousand or so 358 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 7: whose status expires April second, twenty twenty five, and there's 359 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 7: another few hundred thousand two status expires in September of 360 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 7: twenty twenty five. And what the Secretary is saying is 361 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 7: that they will not renew the status of the Venezuelans 362 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 7: who status expires in April of twenty twenty five, and 363 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 7: so they won't have any status. So what does that 364 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 7: mean rid large how will this probably play out? I 365 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 7: think probably the way you'll this play out is a 366 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 7: large number of those individuals either already had asylum cases 367 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 7: that they actually ended up withdrawing because they got temporary 368 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 7: protective status, so they have to refile it. And then 369 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,920 Speaker 7: there's going to be a ton of litigation about whether 370 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 7: you filed your asylum claim within the year or you 371 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 7: didn't file your asylum claim within the year. So though 372 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 7: the all of that, you usually have to file for 373 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 7: asylum within one year after writing in the United States, 374 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 7: so there's that issue, But in the end, almost all 375 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:34,119 Speaker 7: of them are going to apply for asylum. And so 376 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 7: then what makes this complicated is that's going to create 377 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 7: a lot of strain on an immigration court system that 378 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 7: already has over a million. 379 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 5: Cases in it. 380 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 7: And so to the extent that one is trying to 381 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 7: create repatriations, one might actually be flowing them down unwittingly 382 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 7: by doing something like this. 383 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 5: But nevertheless, this is what's going to happen. Now. 384 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 2: Talk about yet another lawsuit against Trump. Immigrant rights groups 385 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: filed a federal lawsuit against Trump, claiming that his Executive 386 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: Order entitled Guaranteeing the State's Protection against Invasion unlawfully targets 387 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 2: asylum seekers with deportation, violating federal law. 388 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 7: So the ACLU as Counsel filed a lawsuit on behalf 389 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 7: of three different organizations that work with the refugees, and 390 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 7: what they basically said is that the proclamations that were 391 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 7: issued by the Trump administration banning all access to asylum 392 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 7: in the United States by people who cross the border 393 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 7: violates the immigration statutes and violates the Administrative Procedures Acts. 394 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 7: Basically because the way the statutory authority works, and this 395 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 7: has always been the debate about whether one could do 396 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 7: this or not, is that the statutory authority says you 397 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 7: can apply for asylum regardless of whether you entered the 398 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 7: United States legally or ill legally. Now there's a separate 399 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 7: part of the statute that says you can ban people 400 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:10,640 Speaker 7: applying for asylum if you create a regulatory discretionary reason. 401 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 7: So you could add things like, for instance, you know, 402 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 7: are a cyber criminal that might not have existed in 403 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 7: the nineteen eighties when these statutes were written, So you 404 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 7: could do things like that. But the question is can 405 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 7: you use this discretion to take away something that the 406 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 7: statute specifically says, which is that it doesn't matter how 407 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 7: you enter the United States, you can apply for asylum. 408 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 7: And so this litigation was going on under the first 409 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 7: Trump administration that was canceled, then when Biden put his order. 410 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 5: In, it was going on. 411 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 7: And now this is a new challenge to the new 412 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 7: Trump order. But eventually this will work its way to 413 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 7: the Supreme Court and we will see who wins this 414 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 7: argument between the two concepts of can you actually ban 415 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 7: asylum as a discretionary matter for people who cross the border. 416 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 5: Or if that's the one area where you're. 417 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 7: Not allowed discretion because the statue specifically says that you 418 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 7: can apply for asylum even if you enter the United 419 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 7: States illegally. 420 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 6: Do you think that they have a good case. 421 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 7: I think it's a strong case, because when Congress actually 422 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 7: takes the rare occasion to enumerate something as clearly as that, 423 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 7: it does seem like it's a strong case where they 424 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 7: wouldn't want the discretion to be used to deny that 425 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 7: specific reason for asking for asylum. So I do think 426 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 7: it's a strong case. I think sort of like I say, 427 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 7: sometimes a computer judge would probably rule in favor of 428 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 7: the plaintiffs here. But you know, since the judges are 429 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,120 Speaker 7: human beings and they have their own predilections, maybe they 430 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 7: will rule for the Trump administration. But I think if 431 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 7: you're just using the text and you have these two statutes, 432 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 7: one that says you can pick new discretionary reasons to 433 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 7: deny people, and one which says that no matter matter what, 434 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 7: you can apply for asylum, even if you entered illegally, 435 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 7: that you probably couldn't use a discretionary reason that violates 436 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 7: that specific statutory instruction that allows you to apply for asylum. 437 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: So I mean, because these cases take so long, is 438 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: the key here then whether or not they get an 439 00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: injunction to stop Trump from doing this? 440 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 7: While well, here's the problem. The Supreme Court has issued 441 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 7: cases during the Biden administration that says now that only 442 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 7: the Supreme Court can issue the injunction. The district court 443 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 7: and the appellate Court do not have the authority to 444 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 7: issue the injunction on this kind of removal statute interpretation, 445 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 7: just because of the weird quirky way in which these 446 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 7: statutes were drafted, where it actually says that, And so 447 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 7: they say, well, I mean, this is weird, But because 448 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 7: the statute actually says it, then we're going to interpret 449 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 7: the statute the way. 450 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 5: It says it. 451 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 7: And that means that the district court can only be 452 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 7: recommend an injunction and say it's on lawful and the 453 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 7: appellate court can do the thing. But it's only going 454 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 7: to be the Supreme Court that can issue the injunction. 455 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 7: Which is why the Biden case took so long, is 456 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 7: because you can't actually get a tro. 457 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 5: Or an injunction to do this. 458 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: Now. 459 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 5: Now you have to get a. 460 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 7: Declaratory judgment that this is illegal and work your way 461 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 7: all the way up to the Supreme Court. 462 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,639 Speaker 2: And it's a long way up to the Supreme Court. 463 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 2: Stay with me, Leon Coming up next on the Bloomberg 464 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 2: Law Show, El Salvador's offer to jail deporties from the 465 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 2: US of any nationality, including US citizens, and the many 466 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 2: ways that offer is illegal. You're listening to Bloomberg. 467 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 9: No one's ever made an offer like that, and to 468 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 9: outsource at a fraction of the cost at least some 469 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 9: of the most dangerous and violent criminals that we have 470 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,359 Speaker 9: in the United States. But obviously the administration will have 471 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 9: to make a decision. 472 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 2: Secretary of State Mark or Rubio said he was exploring 473 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 2: whether he could move forward with the offer from L. 474 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: Salvador's president to jail deporties from the United States of 475 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: any nationality, including US citizens, in L. Salvador's prisons, which, 476 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,400 Speaker 2: by the way, the State Department has described as dangerous 477 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 2: and harsh. 478 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 9: Obviously, we'll have to study it on our end. There 479 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 9: are obviously legalities involved. We have a constitution, we have 480 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 9: all sorts of things. But it's a very generous. 481 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 2: Offer and it won't take much studying to discover that 482 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 2: sending US citizens to foreign prisons is illegal. I've been 483 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 2: talking to immigration law expert Leon Fresco of Holland and Knight. Leon, 484 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 2: is there any doubt that you can't send American citizens 485 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 2: to L Salvador to serve out their sentences? 486 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 6: Right? 487 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 5: That is not legal. 488 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 7: So, first of all, if you were born in America 489 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 7: and you're not even a dual citizen of any kind, 490 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 7: you would be violating a number of statutes by sending 491 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 7: someone to prison in Al Salvador. 492 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 5: That is not permitted. 493 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 7: But even if the person happened to be a dual citizen, 494 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 7: it still doesn't matter. There's no authority. The number one 495 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 7: defense in the i NA for a removal proceeding is 496 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 7: that you're a citizen. That's the sort of when you 497 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,440 Speaker 7: talk about rock scissors paper, being a citizen is a 498 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 7: nuclear bomb that's destroying the rock scissors or the paper. 499 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 7: And so I don't know exactly why that would have 500 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,560 Speaker 7: been highlighted, other than perhaps to create some sort of 501 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 7: feeling of instability for would be dual citizen criminals to say, hey, 502 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 7: be careful, you might get sent to Alsavad or that 503 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 7: kind of thing. But in terms of the legality of it, 504 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 7: it's very not legal. 505 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 2: I like that term very not legal, although President Trump 506 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 2: was all for it. 507 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 3: These are sick people. If we could get them out 508 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 3: of our country, we have other countries that would take them, 509 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 3: then it's no different than are system, except it would 510 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 3: be a lot less expensive and it would be a 511 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 3: great deterrent. 512 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 7: It's possible as a matter of rhetoric, but as a 513 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 7: matter of law, I do not think that that will 514 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 7: end up surviving both under the immigration laws under the IRONA, 515 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 7: but also even if you could make some argument that 516 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 7: you could legally do it, then the Convention against Structure 517 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 7: would come in and you wouldn't be able to send 518 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 7: people to the kinds of facilities that you're seeing on 519 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 7: TV where you have five hundred people packed into one room. 520 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 7: You know that kind of thing is not going to 521 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 7: be permitted. 522 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 2: What about sending migrants who are here illegally to prison 523 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: in a foreign country like El Salvador. 524 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 7: So there are two types of situations where this does happen. First, 525 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 7: the US immigration law is actually quite clear that if 526 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 7: a person has gone through all of their due process, 527 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 7: they can be removed to a third country if the 528 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 7: country that's their actual nationality doesn't choose. 529 00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 5: To accept them. 530 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 7: And in the past there have been countries. Venezuela wasn't 531 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 7: accepting people. They're claiming that they're going to start accepting 532 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 7: people now as of this last weekend. But China has 533 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 7: been typically recalcentrant in accepting people. Cuba has been typically 534 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 7: recalcitrant in accepting people who are to be removed from 535 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 7: the United States, and so there hasn't been a country 536 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 7: that's wanted to enmass accept deportise. 537 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: Now. 538 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 7: The problem is there's two layers of this, Which is, 539 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 7: if all Al Salvador would do is let the planes 540 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 7: land in al Savador and accept the deporties. That would 541 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 7: be a much likelier scenario to survive any legal challenge. 542 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 7: The problem is going to be if people start getting 543 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 7: detained in some of those famous facilities that you see 544 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 7: on the news regarding al Savador with very violent gang 545 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 7: members and things of that nature. People will start filing 546 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 7: claims that there was called the Convention against Torture, and 547 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 7: there is a lot of robust case claw that says 548 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 7: the facilities are the kind of facilities that resemble the 549 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 7: kind of facilities that you see in Alsamador. I don't 550 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 7: want to prejudge this, nor do I know which facilities 551 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 7: in Alsavador will be used for these contexts, but theoretically speaking, 552 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 7: there will be claims that people say sending me to 553 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 7: these facilities in Alsavodoor is the same as sargering me, 554 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 7: and courts will have a lot of litigation there, and 555 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 7: so it will be interesting to see if that move 556 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 7: actually ends up creating any efficiencies for the Trump administration 557 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 7: or if it just ends up creating a lot of 558 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 7: litigation about whether sending people to those facilities violates the 559 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 7: Convention against Let's turn. 560 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 2: To sanctuary cities for a moment, Trumps on an executive 561 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 2: order directing federal prosecutors to investigate and potentially bring charges 562 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 2: against state and local officials who don't assist in the 563 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: administration's campaign of mass deportations. So now apparently there's the 564 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,240 Speaker 2: first case where they're actually investigating someone. 565 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 6: In New York. 566 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 2: The Justice Department is looking into the release by an 567 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 2: upstate New York sheriff's office of an immigrant living in 568 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: the US illegally. It was released despite an outstanding federal 569 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 2: arrest warrant on a charge of illegally re entering the 570 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 2: US after a prior removal, so he was arrested by immigration. 571 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 2: Ithaca said, well, our police department followed all relevant city policies. 572 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 6: That's a pretty liberal city. 573 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 2: I mean, what can the Trump administration really do against 574 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 2: that local sheriff's office anything. 575 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 5: So here is the issues it's all going to depend on. 576 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 7: There are state and local statutes that law enforcement individuals 577 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 7: have to follow, which says that you are to release 578 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 7: people in detention and then their normal course of action 579 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 7: without consulting with immigration. Because we choose not to consult 580 00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 7: with immigration, then those individuals will be not prosecutable because 581 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 7: they're stuck in a very difficult situation where they would 582 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 7: either violate state or local law or they would violate 583 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 7: federal law. What's going to be more challenging is if 584 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:16,719 Speaker 7: they have some discretion about whether to honor these detainers 585 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 7: from the federal government, and they choose not to honor 586 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 7: the detainer, and then I think you need something plus, like, 587 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 7: for instance, Ice was outside and they helped them by 588 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 7: going out of the back or something, or did some 589 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 7: other release that thwarted Ice somehow. In that scenario, you 590 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 7: could end up seeing a prosecution for harboring or concealing 591 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,479 Speaker 7: of someone who's here unlawfully in the United States. But 592 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 7: I think it will require more than just lack of cooperation. 593 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 7: I think you will need and I don't think they'll 594 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 7: want to make the first case a pure lack of 595 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,120 Speaker 7: cooperation case. If they're being strategic about it, they're just 596 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 7: trying to get any case to scare people, then yeah, 597 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 7: they might make any case they want. If you are 598 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 7: being strategic about it, you would do a case where 599 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 7: it was lack of cooperation plus some aggravating factor, where 600 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 7: there was an actual effort of some kind done by 601 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 7: one of these state or local individuals to do something 602 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 7: in addition to just not cooperating so that an individual 603 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 7: could have aided detection. 604 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 2: As I've been talking to people in different areas over 605 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 2: the last couple of weeks, I've been hearing more and 606 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 2: more about senior career attorneys who are experienced in antitrust, 607 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 2: who are experienced in environmental law, etc. Being reassigned to 608 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 2: a sanctuary city's working group. The majority have no expertise 609 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 2: in immigration law. I mean, is this a real group. 610 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it's happening in the Department of Justice. 611 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 7: There are lawyers, even in the immigration sections who are 612 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 7: being transferred there that don't ideally want to be transferred there, 613 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 7: and they're having to make choices between either retiring or 614 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 7: going to this location or resigning. You know, if you're 615 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 7: old enough, you can retire. 616 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:13,840 Speaker 5: If you're young, your. 617 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 7: Only choice is to resign. And I think there's a 618 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,399 Speaker 7: lot of people who will not like being transferred either 619 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 7: to the Sanctuary Cities Department or to the border for 620 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 7: border prosecutions to the expense that there's lawyers who are 621 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 7: working in other cities that the reason they came. 622 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 5: To the Department of Justice. You have to think of 623 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 5: it in three layers. 624 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 7: First of all, all lawyers generally go into the law 625 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 7: because they're risk averse. 626 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 5: They don't want to go. 627 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 7: Into business or something else. Then, if you're at the 628 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,360 Speaker 7: second level, where you go into the government, you're particularly 629 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 7: risk averse. You really want to have a stable, normal 630 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 7: government job. And now if you're being re routed places, 631 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 7: that just creates a level of trauma. For a government lawyer, 632 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 7: that's far more difficult. But I think a normal person's 633 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,400 Speaker 7: under sand and for a government lawyer to understand. For 634 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 7: government lawyer, this would be like sending someone who is. 635 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,840 Speaker 5: On a diet to the Hershey factory or something. 636 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 7: It just creates a level of destabilization that's unmanageable. 637 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 2: That's the best explanation of why people become lawyers. It 638 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 2: does seem like some of them might be transferred because 639 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 2: the administration wants them to quit, But for some of them, 640 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 2: it's hard to figure out the reason why they want 641 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 2: them to quit. 642 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 7: Without getting into this too much, I'll just say there 643 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 7: are many different causes for why someone would end up 644 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 7: being assigned to the border or to the Saint Jerry's 645 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 7: City's work group. What I would just say is to 646 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 7: be said that people don't want to be there, then 647 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 7: there should be a weighing process about is the government 648 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 7: actually losing a resource that could be used for some 649 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 7: other purpose if the person is just going to leave 650 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 7: or not want to be there. And I just don't 651 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 7: know what more to say about that because I tried 652 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 7: to keep it non inflammatory, so I'll just leave it 653 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 7: at that. But I will say that in general, this 654 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 7: is that's something that government lawyers it is a huge 655 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 7: trauma for them to be reassigned in situations such as this. 656 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 2: So I've been reading a lot about red states following 657 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 2: Trump's lead, you know, pursuing sweeping immigration orders themselves, like 658 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: Missouri and Mississippi have proposed allowing bounty hunters to detain 659 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 2: undocumented migrants and offering one thousand dollars rewards for tips 660 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 2: that lead to arrest. 661 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 6: I mean, these are. 662 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 2: Just proposals as the twenty twenty five Legislative Sessions power up. 663 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,280 Speaker 2: Is this helpful to the Trump immigration push? 664 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:44,080 Speaker 6: Are there that? 665 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 7: What's going to be interesting? So there's going to be 666 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 7: a lot of this delegation under what's called to eighty 667 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 7: seven G, which is a section of the Immigration and 668 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 7: Nationality Act which does allow, under certain circumstances, federal officials 669 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 7: to deputy and local law enforcement to do immigration functions. 670 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 7: But the problem is there's this choke point. So, yes, 671 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,359 Speaker 7: you can detain people, you can grab them, you can 672 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 7: apprehend them, you can detain them, and then then what 673 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 7: is the question, what do you do now if they're 674 00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 7: sitting there in a state of local prison for months 675 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 7: and months and months and they can't get into the 676 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 7: immigration court because there are no judges, there are no 677 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 7: ice attorneys, there isn't a functionality for that. So you 678 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 7: have to build the system from that end, toward the 679 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 7: end of detention, rather than from the end of detention, 680 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 7: because then you end up with these massive log jams, 681 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 7: which will create even more litigation about the legality of 682 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 7: doing that, and the two eighty seven g agreements and 683 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 7: all of that, and then all of the government lawyers 684 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 7: that are still left in the government are fighting that 685 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 7: instead of using their resources to get people legally removed 686 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 7: from the United States. And so this is where it's 687 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,960 Speaker 7: a bit of a of a resource challenge because you're 688 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,080 Speaker 7: trying to get in one area and you're trying to 689 00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 7: plug one all and then another leak opens in another location. 690 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 7: And so this is why if you're trying to do 691 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,759 Speaker 7: a lot of this on the fly, it's going to 692 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 7: end up creating leaks in other locations. 693 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 5: Whereas what you. 694 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 7: Really have to do is build out the immigration courts first, 695 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 7: get that fully fully staffed and ready to go, so 696 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 7: that when you get people detained, you can put them 697 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 7: through the court. Build up the number of ICE attorneys 698 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 7: that are there. So that's the same thing, because you 699 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 7: need the ice attorneys some show off the court and 700 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 7: argue for the deportation. 701 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 5: Of individuals, and then you can. 702 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 7: Build up the detention and removal space. And then you 703 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 7: would build up the capacity obviously in terms of planes 704 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 7: and other. 705 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,319 Speaker 5: Logistics to get people out of the United States. So 706 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 5: that's why you'd have to do it. 707 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 7: But again, this is going to require people wanting to 708 00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 7: be immigration judges and people wanting to go into these fields. 709 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,879 Speaker 7: And so when you do that, you know, I don't 710 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 7: know how many people A want to be doing that, 711 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 7: but b with these sort of destabilizations of what it 712 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 7: means to be a government lawyer, then you know, those 713 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,959 Speaker 7: things create presidents and so some new administration can come 714 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,960 Speaker 7: and cancel all of those individuals or move them to 715 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 7: environmental protection or something. And so this this is the 716 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 7: kind of thing that as people see it, it starts 717 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 7: creating challenges in that end too. And so that all 718 00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 7: of this, all of this, all of these things are 719 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 7: dynamic factors that affect one another and. 720 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 5: Just will have to see how they all play out. 721 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, Texas Governor Greg Gabbott said that he signed an 722 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 2: agreement with the Customs and Border Protection allowing the Texas 723 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 2: National Guard to make immigration arrests. 724 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 6: But then, yeah, I guess what happens. 725 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 7: Then, So correct, because arresting them doesn't change anything. You 726 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 7: thought to take them through the deport the system in 727 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 7: order to actually remove them. And if that system is 728 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 7: backlog and you just have a bunch of people just 729 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 7: sitting in at Texas jail, there will soon be lawsuits 730 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 7: to get them released from that Texas jale. And so 731 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 7: that's going to be the interesting question on those cases. 732 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 2: So Texas, there are probably a lot of illegal aliens there, 733 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 2: but I mean in states like Missouri and Kansas, Indiana, Nebraska, 734 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 2: are there that many. 735 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,719 Speaker 7: There are documented people all over the country. And I 736 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 7: think this is actually one of the interesting things I've 737 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 7: been grappling with sort of as a policy person, you know, 738 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 7: policy adjacent person, a person who used to work as 739 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 7: a Senate stop for doing policy is I've always wanted 740 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 7: the solution, you know, sort of now that we're in 741 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 7: this very divided red state, blue state country where people 742 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 7: can't agree and we're at odds with each other and 743 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 7: everybody's got each other's throat. So I've been thinking about it, 744 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 7: and I've written articles about this where what you would 745 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 7: do is that and an immigration bill. 746 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 5: That if you did have an. 747 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 7: Amnesty in it, what you could have is state opt in, 748 00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 7: opt out amnesty. And what that would mean is you 749 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 7: could say if a state opted in, then the immigrant 750 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,279 Speaker 7: could work there legally, but the work permit would be illegal, 751 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 7: meaning it would be subject to deportation if you worked 752 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 7: illegally in an opt out state and a state that 753 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,839 Speaker 7: didn't want that, And then we could sort of let 754 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 7: the laboratory of democracy see which states turned out better. 755 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 7: Was it the states that opted in and allowed people 756 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 7: who are given the amnesty to work, or was it 757 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 7: the states that opted out and created this kind of 758 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 7: very draconian enforcement in their states. So we're going to actually, 759 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 7: even though there won't be this opting opted out in 760 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 7: that sense, we're going to actually see some version of 761 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,399 Speaker 7: this happening unofficially when we have a bunch of sanctuary 762 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,760 Speaker 7: states and a bunch of states that are really hardcore 763 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 7: on it immigration enforcement. Obviously, we will have a realitocation 764 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 7: of where people are, and then we'll get to see 765 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,439 Speaker 7: for ourselves which states end up doing better and which 766 00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,440 Speaker 7: ones end up doing worse. You know, there's things like agriculture, 767 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 7: seasonal labor, and a lot of these places, the weirdest 768 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:22,799 Speaker 7: places require seasonal labor to do certain things, and so 769 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:24,280 Speaker 7: we'll see which. 770 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:24,879 Speaker 5: Ones come out better. 771 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 7: And by the way, I'm not convinced that one will 772 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,520 Speaker 7: come out better than the other. I don't know, but 773 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,000 Speaker 7: this will be a sort of unofficial way to do 774 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 7: it now. Granted, it will be in a sort of 775 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 7: black market economy because these folks won't be legal, so 776 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,600 Speaker 7: it won't work the same way I would have wanted 777 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:43,720 Speaker 7: it to work, where people can work legally. 778 00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,879 Speaker 5: But nevertheless, well, we'll have to see how this ends 779 00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 5: up playing out. 780 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 2: Lee, and I have to say this was a tour 781 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,480 Speaker 2: to four on your part. No matter what question I 782 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 2: ask you on immigration, you know the answer always a pleasure. 783 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,439 Speaker 2: Thanks so much. That's Leon Fresco of hond and Night 784 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,320 Speaker 2: and that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show. 785 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 2: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on 786 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,359 Speaker 2: our Bloomberg Law podcasts. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 787 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,560 Speaker 2: and at www dot bloomberg dot com slash podcast Slash Law, 788 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:17,560 Speaker 2: And remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every 789 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 2: weeknight at ten pm Wall Street Time. I'm June Grosso 790 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 2: and you're listening to Bloomberg