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Speaker 1: My interview with Andrew Kreevak originally aired on August twenty

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Speaker 1: first of twenty seventeen, and there's been some incredible development

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Speaker 1: since then. In twenty nineteen, a judge throughout Andrew's nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety seven conviction and granted him a new trial in

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Speaker 1: Putnam County Court. At the time I'm recording this, he's

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Speaker 1: still in prison awaiting his new trial. But by the

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Speaker 1: time you're hearing it, I'm really optimistic that he's going

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Speaker 1: to be home. I can't even express what that would

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Speaker 1: mean to me, and I know to a lot of

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Speaker 1: our audience who followed his case, it's a disgusting miscarriage

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Speaker 1: of justice. His co defendant, Anthony Depippo, has been out

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Speaker 1: now for several years. He's a dear friend, and the

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Speaker 1: fact is it's incomprehensible and inexcusable that for that long

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Speaker 1: the authorities have known that Andrew is just as innocent

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Speaker 1: as Anthony is, but they've prevented his release for the

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Speaker 1: simple fact that Andrew confessed to the crime that they

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Speaker 1: both didn't commit while Anthony did not. So, Andrew Kreevac

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Speaker 1: justice delayed will not be justice denied.

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Speaker 2: I think we have the best legal system, it's just

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Speaker 2: the people that implement it.

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Speaker 3: They get lost along the way and forget what the

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Speaker 3: job really is.

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Speaker 4: He just kept on trying to remind me that who

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Speaker 4: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy

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Speaker 4: it was for my body to be found in any

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Speaker 4: alley of New York City.

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Speaker 2: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going

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Speaker 2: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.

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Speaker 3: They do that.

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Speaker 5: They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home

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Speaker 5: in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.

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Speaker 4: Anybody that would say, well, why would you confess to

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Speaker 4: something that you didn't do? My question to them will

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Speaker 4: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill

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Speaker 4: your life? Judge, he said, how you feel?

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Speaker 3: I said, I'm okay.

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Speaker 4: He said, well the day is You're lucky day.

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Speaker 1: You going home. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. We have

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Speaker 1: a very unique case and a very special episode of

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Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction behind bars. Today is going to be the

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Speaker 1: noisiest episode. I just want to warn you up front

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Speaker 1: because we're inside Wendy Maximum Security Prison in Buffalo, New York.

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Speaker 1: So apologies in advance, but I promise you you're going

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Speaker 1: to hear an extraordinary interview today, and so hang in

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Speaker 1: there and hear the story of Andrew Kreeback. You've probably

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Speaker 1: heard Andrew's co defendant, Anthony Depippo, his episode of wrongful

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Speaker 1: Conviction aired recently. And so this is a case where

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Speaker 1: we have Anthony on the show, having been exonerated, and

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Speaker 1: yet we're still back here behind bars interviewing his co defendant,

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Speaker 1: which makes no fucking sense, but here we are. If

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Speaker 1: you hear the cell door slamming, you'll know it's as

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Speaker 1: real as it can be.

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Speaker 5: It was a horrific case, the rape and strangulation in

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Speaker 5: nineteen ninety four evangelically beautiful twelve year old Josette Wright.

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Speaker 6: Now there was funning development in the sensational case of

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Speaker 6: a convicted child killer rapist in Putnam County.

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Speaker 3: What's wrong with this case?

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Speaker 2: This case was created at a hot cloth by the

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Speaker 2: deputy sheriff in charge of this case, who himself has

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Speaker 2: been indicted by this very county for crimes.

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Speaker 1: Di Pippo still maintains his innocence.

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Speaker 6: For jury and Putnam County found him not guilty. The

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Speaker 6: main witness against him was a former girlfriend who said

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Speaker 6: she witnessed the attack, but the jury didn't buy. What

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Speaker 6: we learned at this trial is that the eyewitness was incredible.

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Speaker 6: The defense was allowed to suggest Howard Gombert is the

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Speaker 6: real killer, seen with the victims shortly before her disappearance

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Speaker 6: and currently in a Connecticut prison on sex assault charges.

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Speaker 5: Judge Robert nearly ordered DiPippo released on a million dollars bail.

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Speaker 6: The Putnam County District Attorney, though, isn't backing down. He

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Speaker 6: insists not guilty. It's not the same as innocent.

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Speaker 1: Andrew Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thanks.

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Speaker 1: In this case, I could say I'm sorry you're here.

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Speaker 1: Usually I'm happy to have our guests on the show,

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Speaker 1: but I'm sorry to be taping it in this facility.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to seeing you on the outside sometime soon.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: We also have with us another very special guest, someone

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Speaker 1: who I considered to be a sort of royalty. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people to be royalty in the innocents community.

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Speaker 1: The one and only Adele Bernhard is here.

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Speaker 5: Adele welcome, Thank you very much. I'm very glad to

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Speaker 5: be here. I'm really glad you're focusing on Andy's case.

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Speaker 5: I think it's important and I'm.

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Speaker 1: Glad so Adele has been representing Andy for over ten years.

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Speaker 7: Now, well close to ten, I guess.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, it's easy to get wrongfully convicted and undoing it

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Speaker 1: we know takes thousands of hours of legal work, and

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Speaker 1: this case is no different. So Andy, going back to

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Speaker 1: the beginning, Where were you from? Where were you born? Originally?

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Speaker 2: I was rizzily born in Punham County, New York, Punam

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Speaker 2: County Hospital. Raised there till probably like nineteen ninety. Then

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Speaker 2: my family moved to Stormville, New York to take care

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Speaker 2: of my grandmother, Me and my father, My grandmother and

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Speaker 2: my brother and at the.

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Speaker 3: Time my stepmother.

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Speaker 1: And your childhood, was it a happy childhood? How was

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Speaker 1: How were things?

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Speaker 3: It was?

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, we had on normal problems like

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Speaker 2: anything else. I can't say that, you know, I was

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Speaker 2: subjected to anything unusual. It was normal for the most part.

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Speaker 2: I had my you know, little issues growing up, primarily

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Speaker 2: because i'd know my real mother, so you know, I

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Speaker 2: was emotional a lot on that end of things.

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Speaker 3: But it was pretty normal.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, upstate New York pretty nice place to

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Speaker 1: grow up. It's beautiful around here.

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Speaker 2: Did you play sports or yeah, I grew up Actually

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Speaker 2: I started fifth grade football. From that point on, I

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Speaker 2: baseball basketball. I did that probably up until junior high

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Speaker 2: with the hopes that I could go into high school

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Speaker 2: playing sports and see how far I can go.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately that never panned out.

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Speaker 1: So you were a teenager growing up up doing teenager

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Speaker 1: type stuff, right, certainly not not getting in trouble right,

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Speaker 1: A's a double negative. But yeah, I mean like you.

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Speaker 3: Know nothing major. I mean, you know juvenile things.

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Speaker 1: But you were not a violent guy.

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 1: So you're going along trying to find your way like

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Speaker 1: a lot of teenagers, and then one day something absolutely

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Speaker 1: horrifying happens. A young girl, twelve year old girl named

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Speaker 1: Josette Wright, was raped and brutally murdered. But they didn't

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Speaker 1: know that at the time. All they knew was that

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Speaker 1: she had disappeared. Yes, did you know her.

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Speaker 2: I knew her from being around the area, seeing her,

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Speaker 2: knowing her older sisters. Carmos a small community, so everybody interacted.

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Speaker 2: You know, when a fair comes around and goes to

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Speaker 2: the fair. They got a plaza, so they have all

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Speaker 2: these regular areas that you would run into people. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: for that part of in passing or being around somewhere

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Speaker 2: or being in a fair I knew her to that extent.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and Adel, this is a very strange aspect of

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Speaker 1: this case because here you have this small community, sounds

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Speaker 1: sort of idyllic in a lot of ways, and this

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Speaker 1: lovely young girl disappears one day. Right now. You know,

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Speaker 1: we all see on TV when these things happen, the

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Speaker 1: search parties are formed, there's you know, the whole town

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Speaker 1: comes out almost pandemonium, but control pandemia, where people are

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Speaker 1: just searching everywhere to find this little girl. But that's

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Speaker 1: not what happened, right. The authorities didn't at first believe

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Speaker 1: that she even was really missing, unless she ran away.

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Speaker 5: Well from what I could tell from the records they've

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Speaker 5: turned over to us, the police didn't seem to take

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Speaker 5: her disappearance terribly seriously at all. So they put up

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Speaker 5: some wanted posters. But that's about it so as far

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Speaker 5: as I can see from all of the records that

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Speaker 5: I've gathered, unless I'm missing something, they figured she'd come back.

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Speaker 7: They figured she was a runaway. They didn't really take

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Speaker 7: it very seriously.

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Speaker 5: They logged a couple of calls people reported seeing her

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Speaker 5: later on in the malls.

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Speaker 7: But I guess they thought, well, easy companies.

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Speaker 1: To go, she'll be back. I mean, as a it's

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Speaker 1: just outrageous.

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Speaker 7: I think it's very shocking, and.

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Speaker 1: It's particularly outrageous because of her age. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: not like she was seventeen, where you'd say, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes seventeen years run away.

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Speaker 5: She was in school every day, she wasn't getting into

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Speaker 5: trouble with older people from any place else. So the

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Speaker 5: fact that she all of a sudden wasn't there was

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Speaker 5: I think pretty serious.

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Speaker 1: Yes, she was twelve, I mean, Jesus, it's so young.

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Speaker 1: The horror of that is unimaginable. But so months and

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Speaker 1: months go by, Right, you've obviously heard about the case.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's probably heard about the case, yes, And then I

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Speaker 1: think it was thirteen months later her body was found

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Speaker 1: in the woods. And now everything changes.

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Speaker 5: Right, all of a sudden, once they found the bones

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Speaker 5: and they were able to identify the dental records as

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Speaker 5: belonging to her, Suddenly the police realized that they should

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Speaker 5: have been paying more attention.

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Speaker 7: This is my interpretation of the.

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Speaker 5: Records, Like they realized, hey, we should have been taking

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Speaker 5: this more seriously. All the way along. Now we know

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Speaker 5: this is a homicide. It's not just a runaway. She's

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Speaker 5: not coming back, and we didn't follow up the leads

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Speaker 5: that might have let us discover what happened much much earlier,

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Speaker 5: when the trail wasn't so cold.

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Speaker 1: So Andrew, now we have a situation where not only

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Speaker 1: is there the very real problem of the fact that

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Speaker 1: there's a brutal childkiller in the midst of this town,

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Speaker 1: right and everything that that would mean to the authorities.

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Speaker 1: Many of them have kids of their own, or relatives

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Speaker 1: or nieces, whatever might be. So on a personal level,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, there's a real sense of urgency.

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Speaker 1: But also there's got to be a lot of pressure

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Speaker 1: from the community when something like this happens. Absolutely, So

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Speaker 1: they've now got and we see this over and over again,

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Speaker 1: they've got to really scramble and they got to find

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Speaker 1: somebody because otherwise it's going.

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Speaker 7: To be obvious that they didn't do their job.

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Speaker 1: Going to be a lot more pressure brought to bear

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Speaker 1: on them. There could be people losing their jobs, who

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Speaker 1: knows what could happen, people getting voted out. They got

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Speaker 1: to find this guy or people who did this, right, So,

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Speaker 1: things start to go downhill quick from this point, and

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Speaker 1: ultimately you end up being arrested and charged with this

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Speaker 1: crime that you must have been like are you were you?

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Speaker 1: I mean, were you? Like? Are you kidding? Like?

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Speaker 3: I was in shock.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the actual processes was like fifty

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Speaker 2: paces behind my brain, like trying to catch up, Like,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, your.

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Speaker 7: Brain was fifty paces behind.

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Speaker 3: What's happened my conscious?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like trying to am I really sitting here?

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Speaker 2: You know, as a juvenile, I've been in and out

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Speaker 2: of little situations, so but to being told that I

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Speaker 2: raped and murdered somebody at seventeen, Like are you serious?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, Like, I mean, just anybody

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Speaker 2: who knows me like like they don't correlate the two,

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Speaker 2: and you know, me to try to process that I'm

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Speaker 2: being accused of it and sitting in there and having

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Speaker 2: you know, these people yell at me and say this evidence,

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Speaker 2: there's witnesses, there's people, and I'm yelling back, You're lying,

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Speaker 2: You're crazy, You're making it up. I don't really think

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Speaker 2: it still has hit me because I refuse to let it.

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Speaker 2: It's like I'm in this altered state of just trying

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Speaker 2: to figure this out, like, wait a minute, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's gotta be a bad dream I'm making up sometime.

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Speaker 1: How did they land on you and Anthony? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know the story, but I want to hear from

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Speaker 1: your perspective because it's so bizarre. There was no physical

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Speaker 1: evidence connecting you. What do you understand how that happened?

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Speaker 2: No, and I think about it every day, you know,

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Speaker 2: I have since this has happened. My only consensus of

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Speaker 2: it is maybe prior run ends being an easy target.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, Like I said, you know, you try

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Speaker 2: to make sense of something that doesn't make sense, and

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Speaker 2: you can drive yourself crazy.

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Speaker 5: For one thing, what happened is that Denise Rose got

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Speaker 5: herself arrested.

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Speaker 2: Well eventually, I mean yeah, you know, later on down

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Speaker 2: the line through there talking to people wherever the case

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Speaker 2: may be, different names came up. And I think, at

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Speaker 2: least personally, that it still extends farther than just people

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Speaker 2: mentioning names, because you would think that the professionals that

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Speaker 2: are actively pursuing leads and looking for the culprits or

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Speaker 2: the culprit that committed this crime would be able to

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Speaker 2: hang themselves on to something tangible as opposed to oh, well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he knew her or she knew him, or you know

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying. So I think it's a little bit

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Speaker 2: more than that. To what extent, I don't know, it's

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Speaker 2: obvious that there's more to it than just singling us

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Speaker 2: out because a name was mentioned.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to jump in here, adult? Sure?

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Speaker 5: I mean, when Denise Rose got arrested, they had an

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Speaker 5: idea of who the likely suspects were in the town.

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Speaker 5: And I think that Anthony in particular was a likely

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Speaker 5: suspect just because he was a big guy.

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Speaker 7: They knew him.

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Speaker 5: He'd got in trouble for various juvenile kinds of things.

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Speaker 5: And so when Denise gets arrested and she's in trouble

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Speaker 5: and they know that she had been his girlfriend at

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Speaker 5: around the time that they now decided that this little

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Speaker 5: girl was murdered, they immediately started putting the pressure on her.

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Speaker 7: Did you know him? You knew him?

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Speaker 1: Then?

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Speaker 7: How did you know him? Weren't you with him? Weren't

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Speaker 7: you with him that night? Didn't you see what happened?

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Speaker 5: And they talked to her time and time again. They

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Speaker 5: talked to her at least three different times while she

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Speaker 5: was in jail, after she'd gotten arrested, while she was

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Speaker 5: worried about going to jail herself, and so a little bit,

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Speaker 5: by little bit, by little bit, they got her to

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Speaker 5: start thinking that maybe there would be something in it

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Speaker 5: for her to put these pieces together for them, when

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Speaker 5: she could perfectly well see where they wanted her to go,

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Speaker 5: which was to give them something about this murder that

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Speaker 5: involved Anthony. And of course Anthony's friend who he was

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Speaker 5: with a lot of the time, is Andy.

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Speaker 1: So it's a little bit of a house of cards.

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Speaker 1: And Denise would not seem to have been the most

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Speaker 1: credible witness since, by her own admission, she smoked crack

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Speaker 1: thousands of times.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, but I don't know that they knew that then.

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Speaker 5: Okay, that came out in this third trial where there

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Speaker 5: was some really very pointed cross examination and a lot

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Speaker 5: of discovery about who she was and what she had done.

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Speaker 5: I don't know how much the police knew or even

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Speaker 5: thought about it at the time.

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Speaker 7: I just know that they realized that maybe this is.

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Speaker 5: A way into this case, right, maybe we can put

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Speaker 5: pressure on this gal and then the whole thing will

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Speaker 5: fall into place.

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Speaker 1: Why they would have assumed that she would know who

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Speaker 1: the killer was. That's for anybody to speculate, right.

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Speaker 5: Only because they already had in their mind this idea.

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Speaker 5: I mean, if she had been somebody else's boyfriend during

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Speaker 5: that time, they might have picked on somebody else. But

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Speaker 5: I think it was a way like, Okay, we've got.

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Speaker 7: Pressure on you.

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Speaker 5: You know the other kids, you know all the kids

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Speaker 5: in this community. Okay, the gal who disappeared was a kid,

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Speaker 5: maybe you know something about it.

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Speaker 7: We're going to go.

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Speaker 1: With this, right And she ultimately came up with a

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Speaker 1: very farcical story which has been disproven in every imaginable way.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it never made sense in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Right now it's actually been disproven. Dell, What was this

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Speaker 1: story that she satisfactured completely?

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Speaker 7: As far as I'm concerned. Incredible story. And so I

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Speaker 7: think that the police had in.

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Speaker 5: Their minds because I really think this story came from

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Speaker 5: the investigating officers. I think they came up with this

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Speaker 5: idea of how they thought that the crime must have happened,

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Speaker 5: and they pushed their hypothesis onto everybody, eventually convincing juries

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Speaker 5: that this is indeed what happened. And it starts from

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Speaker 5: where they found the body, because they found these bones

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Speaker 5: off of a dirt road, which was a road that

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Speaker 5: all the kids in the community used to go to

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Speaker 5: the smoke pot, so they knew that people drove down there,

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Speaker 5: and they knew that people's smoked pots. So from there

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Speaker 5: they kind of worked backwards and said, oh, what must

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Speaker 5: have happened is that she must have gone with these

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Speaker 5: older kids and they are smoking pot and then they

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Speaker 5: killed her.

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Speaker 7: And threw her body into the woods.

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Speaker 5: So they had this idea in their minds, is my belief,

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Speaker 5: before they talked to her, and then they got her

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Speaker 5: to say exactly what they thought. And remember they had

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Speaker 5: been investigating the case for months before they talked to her,

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Speaker 5: so they knew where the body was found, they knew

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Speaker 5: how far that road was from where the kids all lived,

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Speaker 5: they knew who drove down that road. And they said,

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Speaker 5: isn't this what happened, Denise? And she's like, yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 5: We're all in a.

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Speaker 1: Van fill high and there were according to her story,

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Speaker 1: her fairy tale, there were five people besides the victim

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Speaker 1: in the van, correct, all of whom knew what was

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Speaker 1: going on, including her, right, But she made a sound

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Speaker 1: that she wasn't involved. And what I find absolutely preposterous

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Speaker 1: about all of this is that let us not forget

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Speaker 1: that thirteen months had gone by or more by the

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Speaker 1: time they interviewed her, and somehow magically, not she or

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Speaker 1: any of the other people in the van ever breathed

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Speaker 1: the word of it to anyone.

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Speaker 5: Right now, she claims that she is present and sees

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Speaker 5: a rape and a murder of a twelve year old

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Speaker 5: girl that happens in a car right in front of

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Speaker 5: her eyes, that she sees the whole thing, and she

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Speaker 5: never mentions it to a soul.

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Speaker 1: Not her mother, not a priest, not her best friends,

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Speaker 1: not her best friend.

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Speaker 5: Right, teenage girls have best friends and tell them everything.

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Speaker 1: I've never been a teenage girl. But our teenage girls

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Speaker 1: good at keeping secrets. No, they're not going to keeping secrets, okay,

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Speaker 1: And we don't want to sound sexist here. A teenage

354
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Speaker 1: boys are no good at it either. In this case,

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Speaker 1: you'd have to look at that and go, no, that's

356
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Speaker 1: not possible. Somebody's lying because that didn't happen the way

357
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Speaker 1: she says. Somebody else would have known and it would

358
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Speaker 1: have gotten out there. So anyway, so she makes up

359
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Speaker 1: this story about the five of us in the van

360
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Speaker 1: and the victim and we're driving with her to go

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Speaker 1: smoke pot whatever the hell she's saying.

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Speaker 2: Can I just interject for a minute before it even

363
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Speaker 2: got to that point, you gotta be aware that there

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Speaker 2: were two previous statements, both of which she doesn't know

365
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Speaker 2: nothing more along the lines of the truth. For whatever reasons,

366
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Speaker 2: it came to her disclosing, oh, I witnessed this. Hannia's

367
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Speaker 2: crime is obvious in this sense where the police detectives

368
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Speaker 2: in the case, primarily Patrick Costaldo, had seen her several

369
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Speaker 2: times and either badgetor threatened her, intimidated her bullet or

370
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Speaker 2: all of the above, but finally convinced her that it

371
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Speaker 2: was in her best interest to lie and to say

372
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Speaker 2: she was the witness of this crime that she never

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Speaker 2: witnessed and that we never committed.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't her best interest because who knows what

375
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Speaker 1: she would have been facing herself?

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Speaker 2: Well absolutely, and again too, she was actually older than

377
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Speaker 2: both me and Anthony, so she was already on probation.

378
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Speaker 2: She's had arrests for drugs, so it's easy to understand

379
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Speaker 2: how that type of threat of going to jail would

380
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Speaker 2: influence her to go along with the cops version of events.

381
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Speaker 1: It's a very real threat. And also we know too

382
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Speaker 1: that she was a teenager. Even though she was older

383
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Speaker 1: than you, he was still a very young woman, and

384
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Speaker 1: you know, she may not have been able to process

385
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Speaker 1: the real consequences of her actions. Your case has many

386
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Speaker 1: of the causes that we see most frequently in wrongful convictions.

387
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Speaker 1: Whatever the reverse of a jackpot is, you hit it

388
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Speaker 1: because you had incentivized witnesses, you had sloppy or incompetent

389
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Speaker 1: police work, a known liar who was the guy who

390
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Speaker 1: administered the polygraph. We know that because he was the

391
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Speaker 1: same guy from Jeffrey Dedskobek's case who lied in his case.

392
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Speaker 1: Then the false confession in your case, which is really

393
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Speaker 1: one of the main reasons why you're still here, where

394
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:06,400
Speaker 1: the state county authorities have admitted that they got it wrong. Right,

395
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,680
Speaker 1: Anthony's home and he's been on the show, he's live

396
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Speaker 1: and in person, and you're still here, And I think

397
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 1: it's fair to say that one of the main reasons

398
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Speaker 1: for that is the fact that they did manage to

399
00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,679
Speaker 1: elicit a false confession from you, which again is confounding

400
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:24,160
Speaker 1: to so many people who look at me with these

401
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 1: faces and they go, I would never confess to something

402
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 1: I didn't do. That's and a jury can't understand that either. Right,

403
00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,399
Speaker 1: how did they get you to confess to a crime

404
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 1: you didn't commit.

405
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,200
Speaker 3: Well, it's not my words. I didn't confess to nothing.

406
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Speaker 2: It's pre written statement made by them that I wound

407
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Speaker 2: up breaking down and signing.

408
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 7: I think that's important.

409
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Speaker 5: It's not his words, it's their words on a piece

410
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Speaker 5: of paper.

411
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Speaker 3: To understand my segregation. I came in.

412
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Speaker 2: I denied everything, obviously, and at the time my mind

413
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Speaker 2: was working like, oh, I detect the test, they'll see

414
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Speaker 2: I pass it, They'll understand they made a mistake, and

415
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Speaker 2: I'll be let go.

416
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Speaker 1: So you believe they were after justice, they wanted to

417
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Speaker 1: do the right thing.

418
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Speaker 2: Yes, my naivete at the time believed in the good

419
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Speaker 2: of the system and not to at that particular moment

420
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Speaker 2: think that they were devising this big operation to get

421
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,640
Speaker 2: themselves to solve a case by any means necessary. Now

422
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,480
Speaker 2: I know, obviously, but yeah, I was still believing that

423
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: even if they were under the impression I had any

424
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Speaker 2: involvement by me giving a lot of detective tests would

425
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 2: clear that up, and then it would reevaluate and go

426
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Speaker 2: somewhere else. That's what my belief was. So I answered

427
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,400
Speaker 2: the questions. They didn't like them, obviously, So I said,

428
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Speaker 2: we'll give me a lot of text tests. I'm nothing

429
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Speaker 2: to hide, I'm nothing to be untruthful about. And I

430
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 2: took three consecutive lot of detectives tests by Daniel Stevens,

431
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 2: and then the integregation continued. You lied, you failed, more aggressive,

432
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 2: more intimidating. I keep denying it. That's yelling back and forth.

433
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Speaker 2: So it's like, at that point in time, I'm going

434
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Speaker 2: through that. You know they're not listening to me.

435
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 1: Did you have a lawyer or a parent or anybody

436
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Speaker 1: in there with you?

437
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 2: Well, ironically, from what I found out after the fact,

438
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: was all right.

439
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,440
Speaker 3: Just to bring it back a little bit.

440
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 2: At the time of my arrest, it's crazy because I

441
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 2: was reporting to my probation office in Beacon, New York.

442
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 3: It was a morning.

443
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 2: I was at the time with a girl who was

444
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 2: my girlfriend. She was in the car, so we left

445
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 2: my house. I went and reported to probation. I was

446
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:22,320
Speaker 2: going to be my father to go to work because

447
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 2: at the time I worked for him, and while I

448
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: was in my probationer's office. Four detectives come in the room,

449
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 2: Castaldoing Quick from Punham County and two Beacon detectives, and

450
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,200
Speaker 2: they detained me, put me in the car, and bring

451
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 2: me to Punham County. Now, my girlfriend is still sitting

452
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,880
Speaker 2: in the car. Okay, so she calls my family. My

453
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: father finds out. Now apparently everybody goes to the Sheriff's

454
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: department to find out what's going on.

455
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 3: Why did they have me?

456
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 2: And apparently while I was being interrogated, news was outside

457
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 2: in the parking lot. My family was out there, So

458
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,640
Speaker 2: I guess there was a whole scrum going on out

459
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 2: there while I'm in the back room being worked over.

460
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 3: One of the things I beat myself up with is

461
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: how I was allowed to just give in.

462
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 2: But again, a sense in my mind that was working

463
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 2: was like, you can't make an untruthed truth. So regardless

464
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 2: of what's written on paper, it's words on paper, it's

465
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 2: not evidence. And I really felt that if it had

466
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 2: to come to litigation, meaning court, that the evidence and

467
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 2: the truth would come out and solidify my innocence. Again,

468
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 2: that's being young and naive to the system, and I

469
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 2: pretty much helped them convict me wrongfully for this crime.

470
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: But you were young and naive and and I don't

471
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: think you can really beat yourself up. The thing is,

472
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: I think for me anyway, having met and befriended and

473
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 1: work for and with so many people who not only

474
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: signed a piece of paper like you did, we see

475
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,400
Speaker 1: all different types of false confessions.

476
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 5: Well, I think it's perfectly understandable and reasonable to think

477
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,160
Speaker 5: that the truth is going to come out and that

478
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 5: you can't change it, and if you're innocent, that that

479
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 5: will eventually be the story that emerges, which is like,

480
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 5: I think what he's saying is I figured the truth

481
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 5: would prevail.

482
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 7: I am innocent. Everyone will eventually know that.

483
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and correctly if I'm wrong, Andrew. But when

484
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 1: you're in that room and I'm just trying to put

485
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: myself in your shoes and give me the chills. But

486
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 1: it became clear, after many hours of interrogation that these

487
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,440
Speaker 1: guys were not going to listen to you.

488
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 3: No, absolutely not.

489
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: I mean there was nothing you could Probably by now

490
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 1: you'd said everything you could say, and they keep telling

491
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: you you're lying, and they keep becoming more aggressive. Right,

492
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: So at a certain point you go, well, this ain't

493
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 1: working right, This is not getting me anywhere. But somebody

494
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: somewhere is going to be on my side because it's

495
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: called the justice system and I'm just a kid and

496
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,480
Speaker 1: I didn't do anything. So I got to get out

497
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: of this room and into a different place where there's

498
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,920
Speaker 1: people that robes on and things like that that are

499
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: like you know why, and that are not these sort

500
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: of half crazed interrogators. They're not letting up, and you

501
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: ain't getting out of that room. I mean it's not

502
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: like they said, well one more hour, we're gonna let

503
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: you go home, right, I mean, like you just you're

504
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:11,360
Speaker 1: there in depth.

505
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: They pretty much, you know, wanted to hear me admit

506
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: that I committed this crime. And I kept getting more

507
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: aggressively in my nature of telling him that I didn't

508
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 2: commit it and it was it was a volcano getting

509
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 2: ready to erupt.

510
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: Would you worry that they were going to be physically

511
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:29,479
Speaker 1: violent with you?

512
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: Daniel Steven has already had upon my completing the polygraph test.

513
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: You know, when he told me I failed, grabbed me

514
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 2: by my throat, punched me in my stomach, told me

515
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 2: that I, you know, I was a piece of shit,

516
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get it.

517
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 3: I get deserved and all this other stuff.

518
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 7: You know, we know he's made other people for to confess.

519
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,640
Speaker 7: That's what you didn't know at the time.

520
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 3: No, I didn't know at the time.

521
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: He's also been similarly violent in other cases. I was

522
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: brought up on charges for at least one of those. Right, Okay,

523
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: So now we're getting really to the crux of it.

524
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: So you now have a guy who is a very

525
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,600
Speaker 1: real danger to you. I mean he has now physically

526
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: assaulted you, and you have no way out of this room,

527
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 1: nobody who's listening to you, and you've now been beaten,

528
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 1: and you don't know what's coming next. So at a

529
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 1: certain point you say, okay, well, here's this piece of paper.

530
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 1: It's my it's my way out, and then we're going

531
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: to get this sorted out later. Because the truth is

532
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: the truth. You didn't do it.

533
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's always been my belief. I mean

534
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: even to this day, Like I said, I mean, I

535
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 2: just find it completely preposterous that they could try to

536
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,400
Speaker 2: stand behind that argument when all the physical, scientific inforence

537
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 2: evidence disproves what's on that paper.

538
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: Oh, by the way, did you fail a polygraph test.

539
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 2: No, we had our own polygraphist at the time, who

540
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 2: was a retired polygraph expert for the FEDES, was on

541
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: the polygraph Board of Administrators who came in and reviewed

542
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 2: my tests and determined that the attempts were to make

543
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: it failed by disconnecting parts of the machine. And he said,

544
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: despite all of that, I was truthful in every answer.

545
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: Will the disconnecting parts of the machine, I mean, on

546
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: top of everything else, it's just.

547
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 3: Like Daniel Stevens, I mean Russia.

548
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: I mean, this is what was exposed with Jeffrey Dskovic

549
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: into the you know, his procedure and his version of

550
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: what he does and the correct manner in which to

551
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 2: perform a polygraph test. I mean, there's a lot of

552
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 2: dynamics in my case that don't make sense, Like how

553
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 2: was that introduced as evidence when it's not allowed. It

554
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: was never a mechanism for them to try to ascertain

555
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: the truth. It's kind of so tactic of an interrogatory

556
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: process to manipulate, beat me down, to get me in

557
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 2: a position to give them what they wanted, which they

558
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: eventually did.

559
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,880
Speaker 1: Heads you lose, tails you lose. And now we know too,

560
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 1: like a top of all those other causes that the

561
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 1: three central police figures in this investigation have all been

562
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: either indicted or convicted of other crimes. I mean, the

563
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 1: system really failed you in so many ways. And these

564
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: are ways that we as a society have to address

565
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: because if we don't, it's going to happen to somebody else.

566
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: And then for those of you out there listening, could

567
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: be someone you love, could be you. And there's so

568
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 1: much of this case. There was a guy who was

569
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: initially suspected of being the killer, the rapist and killer,

570
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: and somehow the tension was diverted from him, and now

571
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: that guy is in prison for child sex crimes. Yes,

572
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,800
Speaker 1: so I mean coincidence. I mean maybe, but the circumstantial

573
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: evidence is mounting and there's a very real chance that

574
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: he might hold the key. He may be the only

575
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: guy who knows who did this. And there's also a

576
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: statement that came out that he apparently made in prison

577
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: to another inmate where he claimed that there's a couple

578
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: of I think he said a couple other suckers were

579
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: taking the fall for his crime in this particular case.

580
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: And that's got to just make you insane to hear

581
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: a guy like that who is really a scumbag.

582
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean he is very much so.

583
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: And you know, just to point out that's why I

584
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: say this, there's dynamics of the case that is so

585
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: overwhelmingly obvious it puzzles you to say, how do you

586
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: ignore it? Here it is as a person at that

587
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 2: time that was in his I think late twenties, who

588
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: goes back to the eighties of rapes, insidomies, who is

589
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: known through the Legal Aid Society and the police departments

590
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: in Carmewall.

591
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: He's a monster, absolutely so.

592
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: With all the initial investigations going on and all the

593
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 2: statements that were provided to the police, his name is

594
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: repeated and brought up time and time again. Two of

595
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: the witnesses from Anthony's recent trial were victims of how wegum.

596
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: Let's go back to that for a second. So Anthony

597
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: de Pippo, who was convicted of the same crime that

598
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: you were convicted of in separate trials for reasons looking

599
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 1: into but it was convicted the same crime co defendants,

600
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: and I think people out there are probably saying, well, wait,

601
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: minut if you're both convicted the same crime and he's out,

602
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: what are you doing here? Why are you here and

603
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: Anthony served twenty years and you're in your twenty first

604
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: year now, and it's like where, where and when is

605
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: some sanity going to enter the picture. That's what we're

606
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: here to try to get to the bottom of it,

607
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: to try to help bring attention to because it's madness

608
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: that he's out. Everyone's acknowledged now. It wasn't easy, but

609
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: now it's been proven and acknowledged that he's innocent and

610
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: you are too. But they don't want to take their

611
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: foot off your neck just yet, right, They want to

612
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: still drive this this madness into a deeper hole and

613
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: with you as just sort of sitting here like a

614
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,959
Speaker 1: pinball or something just being knocked around.

615
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it's the unfortunate efficiencies in a system

616
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: when you have people in the power that can abuse

617
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: it legally.

618
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: And then defend it. I mean, it's like they're defending

619
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: something that's been disproven already and leaving out the guy

620
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: who is so clearly should be under extreme scrutiny for

621
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: this crime and should be being questioned and should be

622
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 1: held accountable. You should be held accountable, I mean, and

623
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: this little girl deserves justice and she's not getting it either.

624
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: And may I just point out too, and we got

625
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 2: to go back to nineteen ninety four because this is

626
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 2: when she was first reported missing. I was seventeen at

627
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: the time, Anthony was eighteen at the time. Shortly thereafter,

628
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: another young woman became missing that had ties to Howard

629
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,920
Speaker 2: Gombert and who's been investigated for her disappearance, and I

630
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: believe still is.

631
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, the police were looking at this fellow Gombert, yes,

632
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 5: for another somewhat similar homicide that occurred in that area

633
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 5: at around the same time. Yes, so we know for

634
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 5: the records that they were looking at him. Why they

635
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 5: dropped the ball on this. Hopefully someday we'll find out.

636
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: You know, you could speculate and try to figure out

637
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 2: so many areas of why they did what it did.

638
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 2: Some things become more obvious than others. You have a

639
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: different police agency other than the sheriffs, which is a

640
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: common police department, and they believed that Gombert was responsible

641
00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: for both crimes. They wanted to work together to try

642
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: to tackle the evidence and come to a consensus, and

643
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: the Sheriff's department basically told him to take And again,

644
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: is it politics, it's ugly head.

645
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: Maybe Gombert had some powerful friends somewhere.

646
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 3: Maybe maybe he did.

647
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: I mean it makes you scratch your head because you

648
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: sit there and say, this is obvious. It's not like

649
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: you see similar cases where you could get the wrong

650
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 2: impression by evidence just by interpretating, and that's understandable. And

651
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: then you know, they run down the line and said, oh, well,

652
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 2: this is how I got a room. It didn't start

653
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 2: off like that. This was blatant disregard to certain elements

654
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: of the case. And this is decisions that were made

655
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: knowingly by the police involved.

656
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 5: I mean, one thing, if there was some sort of

657
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 5: an ironclad alibi, you know, they had records and mister

658
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 5: Gombert was in Canada at the time or something like that,

659
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,200
Speaker 5: but there's nothing to show.

660
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: That because all of the.

661
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 5: Evidence points to him and they do nothing. He was

662
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 5: connected to the victim, he knew the victim.

663
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: He was a suspect, similar suspect the other.

664
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: So here it is you have an individual that if

665
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,719
Speaker 2: you're going to fit a mold of any type of area,

666
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 2: I mean, like, what more do you look for?

667
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: So now it comes to trial, A bunch of time

668
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: had passed, right, You've been sitting in jail presumably this

669
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: whole time waiting for your trial.

670
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 2: Yes, since July first, nineteen ninety six, and ever since

671
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: I've been incarcerated.

672
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 1: But I'm talking about from July first, nineteenety six, was

673
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: when you were arrested.

674
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: Arrested, Yes, that was a trial I think ninety seven right,

675
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: ear in jail for.

676
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: Over a year better part of a year for a

677
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: waiting trial, and then you go to trial. At this point,

678
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 1: did you still have hope that the system was going

679
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: to work?

680
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I did.

681
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 2: A lot of that was under the pretense of my

682
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 2: lawyer at the time, and the things that he was

683
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 2: telling me making me believe that certain things were going

684
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: to be addressed, and his disclosure to me about how

685
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: he was going to present the evidence to disprove that

686
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: we committed this crime led me to believe that I

687
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: was going to be successful in establishing that.

688
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 3: But he did none of what he said he was

689
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 3: going to do.

690
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: You had a lawyer who was definitely not on his

691
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 1: a game, let's just say that, which happens, sadly, tragically

692
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: more frequently than it should ever be allowed to. But

693
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 1: you go to trial, your family's there. I want to

694
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: get to the moment when the jury went out and

695
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: everything that could be said, had been said, and then

696
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: you get called back to the courtroom because a verdict

697
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 1: is ready. How long was the jury out I.

698
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: Think like maybe thirty five to forty minutes. I don't know,

699
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: it was like during lunch break. But like by the

700
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 2: time I literally got brought to them, like two minutes later,

701
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: they said they got a verdict and I got back

702
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 2: in the corner back up to the court building.

703
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 3: So like that's how fast it was.

704
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: Can you just paint the picture for us, Like at

705
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: that moment when they stole your life from you, what

706
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: went through your mind?

707
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: I mean, the same thing that's going through my mind now.

708
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: Like I mean when they came back and read the

709
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: verdict that I was guilty on both charges, I was

710
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: still in shock.

711
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 3: I mean through the whole process.

712
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 2: Like I said, I don't think I really ever adjusted

713
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 2: to it really settling in and I stood up and

714
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: rest of court saying that they got it wrong, that

715
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: somebody else committed this crime and that one day the

716
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 2: truth will come out. I didn't have an emotional outburst,

717
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: I didn't break down. I just gathered my inner self

718
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: and just faced it.

719
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:15,479
Speaker 3: It's hard. I mean, it's like.

720
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 2: I I broke inside, but I didn't allow myself to

721
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 2: break completely. I don't know if that makes sense. It's like,

722
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 2: what do you do? What's the next course of action?

723
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: How do you do it? Somebody has to listen, somebody

724
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: has to see it, you know. And even though that happened,

725
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: I still believed that the truth will come out, Even

726
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: though I didn't know ninety nine percent of what I

727
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 2: know now of Howard Gomber to the extent of his involvement,

728
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: his participation in a lot of things, to the degree

729
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: of the cops, and you know, all the information I've

730
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,839
Speaker 2: gathered through the years that I can now look back

731
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: on and say, wow, really, it just became more obvious

732
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 2: to Like I said, there wasn't a truth finding element

733
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 2: to where they was trying to justify arresting somebody and

734
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 2: solving a case. It was a hatchet job for whatever reason,

735
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 2: to exacerbate their positions like they were the good and

736
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: to put closure on a case that probably they look

737
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 2: bad on from the very beginning.

738
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: Closure. Yeah, that's the that's a big word of closure.

739
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: Get it off the desk and onto the next one.

740
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: Just let you rot. And then meanwhile, let this guy

741
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: who's at this point still out there.

742
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know when he was arrested for the

743
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,439
Speaker 5: case that he's serving time on now.

744
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 3: I think mid two thousands.

745
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: Okay, So let's just reflect on that for a second too.

746
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: Had this investigation been conducted properly, had been.

747
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 7: Arrested, and that would have been prevented.

748
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: All those other victims would have just been able to

749
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: go on about their lives and never go through this

750
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: horrific experience. Them and their families and the whole thing.

751
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,839
Speaker 1: I find that fucking outrageous. It's it's just fucking outrageous.

752
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 1: Then you find yourself in a maximum security prison. You're

753
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: locked up as someone who's convicted, but convicted of the

754
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: worst crime that you can be convicted of, which is

755
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: a child rape and murder. Yeah, how the hell did

756
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: you manage to survive that ordeal and get to where

757
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: we are now, where there's actually a ray of hope.

758
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 2: Just like I said, facing it straight up, it hasn't

759
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 2: been easy to this day, it's still not easy because

760
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: it's something that's always exemplified and used against you. You know,

761
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: the word that, oh he's convicted of a rape and murder.

762
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: It's a twelve year old girl automatically, it's a completely

763
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: different outlep to me. So now there's certain restrictions in place,

764
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: there's certain attitudes I'm dealt with, there's certain ways I'm

765
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 2: looked at, and it's a battle trying to say that, yo,

766
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 2: that's not me. But one of the things in prison

767
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 2: is you hear ninety nine percent of the population talk

768
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 2: about their innocent of a crime.

769
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 3: So it's like the boy you crowd wolf.

770
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 2: So it's a constant that I'm facing on a daily basis,

771
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 2: and it's got on extreme in certain cases.

772
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 3: But again it's just what else do I do?

773
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 2: Signing living a shell, just conformed to the to the

774
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 2: outlook that they have in a negative manner. No, one

775
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: of the things that I'm gonna do is I'm gonna

776
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: scream loud and proud because I didn't do it. It's ugly,

777
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,400
Speaker 2: it's nasty, and it's understandable how people can look at

778
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 2: it one way. But in order to overcome that and

779
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: realize just how significant my situation is, you need to

780
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: understand that there's other elements that you don't know about.

781
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 2: So if you're gonna judge me, judge based on everything

782
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: in its entirety, not just off the face of what's

783
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 2: being said or what I'm introduced into the bombing of corrections.

784
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: For I want to get to the aspect of your

785
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: mental state, because you seem to be somebody who's very calm, rational, thoughtful,

786
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: even I want to say, you maintain a very real

787
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 1: sense of hope in a situation that to a lot

788
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: of people, I think it would just collapse and they

789
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: would just you know, and no one could blame you

790
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: for that, right. I mean to find yourself in a

791
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: place like this for over twenty years.

792
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: There were It's not easy and it's taken a long

793
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: time to get this calm.

794
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 3: I'm forcing the situation. It's reality. It is what it is.

795
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: So I could allow things to overwhelm me and make

796
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 2: them harder, or I could just face it and deal

797
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: with the best way that I can. And that's what

798
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 2: I chose to do. I got a voice, and I

799
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 2: try to put it out there as much as I can,

800
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 2: and I got to just be a warrior and just

801
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 2: face everything that comes my way, all adversity, and it's hard.

802
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 2: Each conflict that I go through allows me to deal

803
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: with something different in a more positive way. So I

804
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 2: try to take all of that on a daily basis

805
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 2: to gain my strength.

806
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 1: That's amazing. I don't even know what to say after,

807
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 1: but I will say that it's important for you to know.

808
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,959
Speaker 1: And we spoke to Anthony di Pippo on the way

809
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 1: in today and he wanted us to communicate to you

810
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: that he is standing strong with you and that he's

811
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: going to be there when you have your hearings, and

812
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: he's going to bring a group of exenrees. I mean,

813
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: he's another one. He's a fighter. I mean, he's a

814
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: guy you would on your side. And I'll let you

815
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: know too that there's a lot of other people out there,

816
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: people you don't even know about, who are aware of

817
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 1: a case, and many more that are going to be

818
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 1: aware of it that care about you and want to

819
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 1: see justice finally brought to bear on this terrible situation. Adele.

820
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: Now we find ourselves here in twenty seventeen, twenty three

821
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: years from the time of the crime, twenty one years

822
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: from the time that you were convicted, and that doesn't

823
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: even include the time you spent in jail awaiting trial.

824
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: And what are the prospects and how are you approaching

825
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: this now? And what can people who are listening do

826
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 1: to help.

827
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 5: Well, Basically, we're doing what you said right in the beginning,

828
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 5: which is we're trying to raise the specter of justice.

829
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 5: Why if two people have been convicted of the same

830
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 5: crime on the same evidence, essentially, why is one free

831
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 5: and one in jail? That just seems wrong, It seems

832
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 5: injust and it seems like we should be able to

833
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 5: do something about that. In this situation, Andrew didn't get

834
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 5: the new trial that Anthony got, so he hasn't had

835
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 5: an opportunity to let a jury hear about the evidence

836
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 5: pointing to Howard Gombert. So he hasn't yet had that opportunity.

837
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 5: And we've asked the appellate court to review the lower

838
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 5: court ruling that denied him that opportunity, and the appellate

839
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 5: courts have given us the opportunity to raise that argument

840
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 5: and brief that issue. So we believe that we're going

841
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 5: to get an opportunity to have a trial where Andrew

842
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 5: as well will get to put in front of a

843
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 5: jury the same evidence that Anthony used that resulted in

844
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,280
Speaker 5: his acquittal. So we're hoping to be in that same place,

845
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 5: but we're not there yet, so we're still waiting. We

846
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 5: have to brief the case at the appellate division. They've

847
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 5: got a rule in our favor. They have to order

848
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 5: that he gets a new trial, and then we'll have

849
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 5: that new trial if the attorney's office wants to retry

850
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 5: him a second time.

851
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: Or they can just vacate. Then they could just.

852
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 7: Vacate the conviction, which they could do now frankly.

853
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely, but that's very unlikely.

854
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 5: It's very unlikely, but that's not something that we have

855
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 5: completely given up on.

856
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 7: We're in touch with the DEA.

857
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 5: If new evidence gets developed, will continue to talk to

858
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,799
Speaker 5: the DEA about this case and about how they could

859
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 5: do the right thing and they could save everybody a

860
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 5: lot of time, a lot.

861
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 1: Of trouble, right and go after the guy.

862
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 5: So we suspect who the evidence points to. I mean,

863
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 5: clearly he's never been charged. Okay, we're talking about him

864
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 5: as though he were in.

865
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 7: Fact the guilty party. We don't know that.

866
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 5: What we know is that the evidence certainly points to him, right,

867
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 5: He's done things that are very similar.

868
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 7: To what they've been convicted of.

869
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 5: So we have a reason to believe that he is

870
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 5: the person. But we don't know that obviously, and it

871
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 5: hasn't been proved in a court.

872
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 2: Of law, just in the manner of the way that

873
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 2: this case was presented, has a lot of associative ties

874
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: to Gombert and his culpable acts against other victims. Yeah,

875
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 2: the evidence points to that. You have a lot of

876
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 2: dots that connect that. I'm not here to do anything

877
00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: other than prove I was not the one who committed

878
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 2: this crime. To exemplify that, focus on the evidence, focus

879
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 2: on the facts, keep it simple. I'm not an investigator,

880
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: nor should I have to be. But one thing that's

881
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: paramount is the evidence discloses I did not commit this crime.

882
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 2: The evidence that's been brought forth in Anthony's retrial is

883
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,280
Speaker 2: that he did not commit this crime. The prosecution's theory

884
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: is that we together participated committing this crime. There's nothing

885
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: separate outside of this purported confession. And again it's words

886
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,760
Speaker 2: on paper, So you can't turn that into more evidence

887
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: against me to.

888
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 3: Say, oh, well, you admitted it.

889
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 2: No, the forensic and pathological evidence disproves those words, disproves

890
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: Denise rules. She disproves her own through her testimony, words

891
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:59,240
Speaker 2: and her statement. So there's all of these different avenues

892
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 2: to come to conclusion that they're refusing to do.

893
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, the only evidence is her testimony. There really is

894
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 7: nothing else.

895
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 5: They say, well, this happened in this van, and there's

896
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,399
Speaker 5: no forensic evidence linking the victim to the van.

897
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 7: There's just nothing there.

898
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 5: There's supposed to be other witnesses who were in the

899
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 5: van with Denise, and all of them say, oh, I

900
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 5: didn't see that happen. The police tried to make me

901
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 5: say that that's what happened, but I refuse to say

902
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 5: that because it didn't happen. So that's what Adam Wilson says.

903
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 5: He says, Oh, the police tried to make me go

904
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 5: along with that story. They tried to make me corroborate

905
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 5: what Denise Rose said, but I wouldn't do it because

906
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 5: it didn't happen.

907
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: The only evidence is the testimony of this crack addicted

908
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: young woman who has been refuted by the other people

909
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: that were there with her at the time. The physical evidence.

910
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 1: Not only is there no physical evidence that because there's

911
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: always going to be skeptics, right, these people out there going, well,

912
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: there must be something, well, you know, in this case,

913
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 1: there's no nothing. There's no physical evidence connecting you to

914
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: the crime, and the evidence that does exist, would indicate

915
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: that the story, well, clearly the story is not.

916
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 5: The forensic evidence is completely consistent with innocence and not

917
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 5: at all consistent with guilt.

918
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: So if we are to believe that you actually did this,

919
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 1: you would have to be a master criminal.

920
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 5: You have to be I have cleaned up the entire

921
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 5: brand that they said it happened in so that no

922
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 5: trace of this victim could be found in the van,

923
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 5: which I think is really beyond the abilities of two teens,

924
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 5: especially when the van that they said it happened in

925
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 5: was already in police custody, was already off the roads,

926
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 5: it was already at the time they said it happened.

927
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: So there's one more thing that we have to talk about,

928
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: which is that the prosecutions theory revolved around the idea

929
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: that this horrible crime was committed in the van with

930
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 1: five people and the victim. And there's a pretty big

931
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: problem with that, which is that there's a mechanic who

932
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: has testified that the van in fact was up on

933
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: blocks at the time.

934
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 5: Right wheels, And the fact of the matter is he

935
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 5: testified to that in this recent trial where Anthony was acquitted,

936
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 5: but he also testified to that back at the first trial.

937
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 7: This isn't even new evidence.

938
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 5: The police knew that and there was no reason to

939
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 5: disbelieve the mechanic.

940
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 7: I mean, there was no reason to think that he was.

941
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 5: Somehow in codes with the defendants and you know, trying

942
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 5: to improperly create a reasonable doubt where there was none.

943
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: There was all sorts of stuff with the van. It

944
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: was on blocks, right, the tires were off it, the

945
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: engine was screwed up.

946
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could explain some of that, but just before

947
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 2: I get into that, just so everybody knows and is

948
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 2: aware of just to extent an involvement of these detectives

949
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 2: is initially on the statements, it was a Bronco that

950
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 2: was crossed out and changed to van.

951
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 5: What happens is is that they later on okay, because

952
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:27,959
Speaker 5: remember there's this long period of time between the time

953
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 5: that Joset disappears and the time that they realize it's

954
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 5: a homicide. So during that period of time when they're

955
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 5: not really investigating this case and they're not following up

956
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 5: their leads on Howard Gombert, during this time.

957
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 7: They seize this van.

958
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,799
Speaker 5: So by the time they arrest Andrew, they've got.

959
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 7: It in their custody.

960
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 3: Well, they legally stole it, right.

961
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 5: They kept it, they seize it, and they never returned it.

962
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 5: So at that point it becomes helpful for them to

963
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 5: have the crime occur in the van, which is in

964
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 5: their possession. So they then change it from saying oh,

965
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 5: it was the Bronco to saying, oh, this must have

966
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 5: happened in Andy's van, not knowing that there was an

967
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 5: actual witness out there who could say, oh, that's impossible

968
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 5: because the van was actually up on blocks and inoperable

969
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 5: at the time that you're saying that this child was actually.

970
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 3: Murdered, yes, which was in nineteen ninety fourth from there.

971
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 5: So I think Andrew's right to say that when you

972
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 5: look at this from the point of view of thinking

973
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 5: about the police after the fact having a hypothesis which

974
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 5: they tried to make the facts conform to that, this

975
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 5: evidence actually does support that theory, and I think that's

976
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 5: what happened.

977
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 3: It's simple orchestration.

978
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 2: What they did was they said this is the crime,

979
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 2: and we're going to get the people to say this

980
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 2: is what happened, and that's what they did. They glued

981
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: together but again simplifying it, keep it into the evidence,

982
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,799
Speaker 2: and it tells its own story, and going back to

983
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 2: Denise Rose and her claims of her witnessing, and you

984
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:09,919
Speaker 2: just reading the statement. You read it and you see

985
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 2: words crossed down and replaced with other words, and then

986
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,040
Speaker 2: you listen to the actual main areas of this statement

987
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 2: which is supposed to be a version of her reciting

988
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: witnessing a crime, and you could see that it's almost

989
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 2: like you know, you're putting a play together. You know

990
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 2: this fits better over here, No say it like this,

991
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,440
Speaker 2: so it comes across more believable. But all the meat

992
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: and potatoes, so to speak, of the essential facts that

993
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: one would digress if they really witness something is not

994
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 2: a part of the statements, and the forensic.

995
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 3: Evidence conflicts with her version. So who do you believe?

996
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: So they actually did, when you think about it, a

997
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: very sloppy job of framing you, because in fact, if

998
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: they had been a little bit more thoughtful, somebody would

999
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: have said, wait a minute, let's not go with that

1000
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 1: van theory, because I just found out that the van

1001
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: is over at Mechanic Autoshop, up on a thing with

1002
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 1: an engine that doesn't work, no tires. But they didn't

1003
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: even bother to do that.

1004
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 7: And guess what they didn't need to, did they.

1005
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 1: No, And that's why, again there is another side to

1006
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: what the prosecution is saying. I'm not saying they're wrong

1007
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 1: all the time. There's certainly not.

1008
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 7: You're absolutely right.

1009
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 5: We want to hold the prosecution, the police and the

1010
00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 5: prosecution to a high standard. There's a burden of proof

1011
00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 5: in a criminal trial which is beyond a reasonable doubt,

1012
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,360
Speaker 5: and we want to be holding people to that standard

1013
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 5: and make them prove that case.

1014
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,959
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, just to point out it would

1015
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,240
Speaker 2: be easy for me to just jump on that bashing,

1016
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,120
Speaker 2: you know, aspect or mindset. And even as hard as

1017
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 2: it is, I understand and believe in the system. There's

1018
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 2: a lot of good and you know, I believe in

1019
00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: what it's supposed to be there for. But again, this

1020
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,359
Speaker 2: isn't something that it wasn't something that you could take

1021
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,160
Speaker 2: and say, it's understandable how these two were willfully convicted

1022
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 2: because there was a lot of close ties to the

1023
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:01,399
Speaker 2: evidence that would indicate the possibility then and guilty. This

1024
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 2: is the furthest from that. This is blatant setting up.

1025
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 2: This is the ugliest of the ugly. This is conscious

1026
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: decisions that the people that are there to protect and

1027
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 2: serve that are throwing all of that away to make

1028
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 2: themselves look like they are those protectors by closing a case,

1029
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 2: getting pats on the back, commendations, knowingly fabricating evidence, bullying

1030
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 2: and intimidating people and getting a wrongful conviction on it

1031
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:27,919
Speaker 2: and shattering lives, and that you know, not just us.

1032
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 2: They lied to the victim's family, they lied to the population,

1033
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: They did all of these things that have a ripple effect.

1034
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 3: It's not just me.

1035
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 2: I want to point out that, regardless of what anybody

1036
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 2: can say that's to the extent this case is, this

1037
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: isn't one of those just close knit or we understand it. No,

1038
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 2: this is individuals choosing to go against the lord that

1039
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 2: were in the powers to get people to believe them

1040
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: because of their positions, and just shatter lives. They say,

1041
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 2: like comes to dark. Three of those same people that

1042
00:51:56,320 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 2: were involved have since been in some form been convicted

1043
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,360
Speaker 2: of this conduct from the balls at the balls into

1044
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 2: the sceneor detectives that were actively involved in our case.

1045
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 1: I tell there's one more aspect of this case that

1046
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: troubles me, and it highlights the fact that there was

1047
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 1: so much time elapsed from the time of the crime

1048
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 1: to the time of the arrests, and they came up

1049
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: with a little girl who said she remembered something about

1050
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: some jewelry or something, which I found so far fetched.

1051
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 5: Well, the police said that they had found jewelry belonging

1052
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 5: to the victim, Josett, in this van, which we know

1053
00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 5: that even if they had committed the crime, they couldn't

1054
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,359
Speaker 5: have committed it in this van. But anyway, they said

1055
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 5: they had found jewelry in the van. They then called

1056
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 5: witnesses at the trial to say that they recognized the

1057
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 5: jewelry as belonging to Joeset. When I first learned about

1058
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 5: this case, which was quite a long time ago, Andy

1059
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 5: wrote me and he described the evidence, and I got

1060
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 5: involved in the case because I thought the evidence was

1061
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 5: completely unconvinced an untrue to common sense. I didn't believe

1062
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 5: that a seventeen year old girl would have witnessed a

1063
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 5: crime like this and not told anybody.

1064
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 7: Didn't believe it. And they also said, despite.

1065
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 5: The lack of any forensic evidence linking the girl to

1066
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 5: the van, there was jewelry found in the van that

1067
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 5: witnesses have identified as belonging to the victim. And I

1068
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 5: just didn't believe that that could possibly be true, because

1069
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 5: I didn't believe that little girls fourteen, because they were

1070
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 5: fourteen by the time they testified at trial, would have

1071
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 5: remembered what their girlfriend was wearing on the day that

1072
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 5: she disappeared two and a half years earlier. Because we're

1073
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 5: talking here about jewelry that would have been brought from

1074
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 5: the five and dimes store, right an earring, a necklace,

1075
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:50,919
Speaker 5: and they were learning generic how special could they have been.

1076
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,439
Speaker 5: Little girls have lots of different jewelry. You would never

1077
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 5: recognize what one person was wearing from one day to

1078
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 5: the next. So the fact that they said at trial

1079
00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 5: under oath, I recognize this piece of jewelry I found

1080
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 5: extremely suspect. And again I think it is evidence of

1081
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 5: how in fact careful the police were trying to be

1082
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 5: to try to overcome the lack of any forensic evidence,

1083
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 5: because they didn't have traces of Joe sat in this van,

1084
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 5: so they were bound and determined to come up with

1085
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 5: something that would link her to this supposed crime scene.

1086
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,720
Speaker 1: I'm thinking now right about that courtroom in that moment,

1087
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: right and I'm sure the jury, but it must have

1088
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: been almost like a gasp, like, oh my god, the

1089
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: jewelry her, the poor girl's jewelry was found in the van.

1090
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: And now I would ask anyone listening to conduct a

1091
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: little test, which is, think of who you were hanging

1092
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: out with yesterday and describe what kind of jewelry they

1093
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 1: were wearing. Unless your friend has the Hope diamond on,

1094
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: I think the chance of you remembering whether they had

1095
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: a ring on which finger on, whether they had a necklace,

1096
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: and what it looked like, I mean, you're not able

1097
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: to do it. I mean, it's just not realistic. And

1098
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 1: I'm talking about yesterday. So the idea that it was

1099
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,840
Speaker 1: thirteen months ago or more actually.

1100
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:08,919
Speaker 5: Because by the time they got to the trial, they're saying, yes,

1101
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 5: I can remember distinctly what she was wearing. Now, they

1102
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 5: weren't saying that they were with her at the time

1103
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 5: that this supposedly happened. They were just saying, yeah, I

1104
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 5: saw her that day, earlier, that day, the night before,

1105
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 5: and yes, I can remember this is her jewelry, that's

1106
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 5: what she was wearing.

1107
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 2: I have to point out, pertaining to the jewelry, one

1108
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 2: of the things again that I mean, it's just it's

1109
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 2: so funny that it's not funny, but It's funny the

1110
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,879
Speaker 2: homicide de Texas. We took possession in my van at

1111
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:36,280
Speaker 2: the time in nineteen ninety five.

1112
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 3: It's never left their custody.

1113
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 2: So some of the jewelry that they mentioned now bear

1114
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 2: in mind, a state trooper in April of nineteen ninety

1115
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 2: five did the inventory sarch.

1116
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 3: No jewelry was found.

1117
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: Well.

1118
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 2: I get arrested on May eleventh, nineteen ninety five on

1119
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,279
Speaker 2: a warrant for marijuana possession, and from that point on,

1120
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 2: the van was in the possession in the Punham County

1121
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 2: serff's department, and the jewelry that they claim to have

1122
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,879
Speaker 2: fine in the map compartment was already searched by two

1123
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 2: other officers. So it never left your possession. It wasn't found.

1124
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 2: How does it get found?

1125
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 5: Conveniently they had, they searched the van, they didn't see it.

1126
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 7: And then suddenly.

1127
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 5: After they had decided how this case is going to go, oh,

1128
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 5: there's jewelry in the van. That wow, people can link

1129
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 5: to the homicide.

1130
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 2: Now it's a piece of physical because all the DNA

1131
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 2: testing up into point in that time, fiber blood analysis

1132
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,800
Speaker 2: or whatever was going on, did not support their version.

1133
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 2: There was not a hair of Joseph right inside that vehicle.

1134
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: She's never been in the vile, She's never been in

1135
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:45,719
Speaker 2: none of my vehicles. So it systematically became obvious that

1136
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 2: they needed some more to push this version of events.

1137
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 2: And by doing so, they say, there's now physical evidence

1138
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 2: of Joe's right being inside that van, So you must

1139
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:57,680
Speaker 2: believe in these roles.

1140
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: And I'm sitting here now thinking about maybe they were

1141
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 1: sitting around having a coffee or lunch, or maybe having

1142
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 1: a meeting in the Investigator of Prosecutors or whatever it was,

1143
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: and somebody goes, I got an idea, and go, hey,

1144
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:13,000
Speaker 1: what's that? Well, what if a jewelry story? Yeah, what

1145
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: if we go with the jewelry story? So it goes

1146
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: that's a great idea. I mean, like, how does it?

1147
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 1: How does everybody go so far wrong? It makes me insane?

1148
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:26,120
Speaker 1: So anyway, there is an overwhelming amount of evidence. We

1149
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: are here now to bring attention to this madness and

1150
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: to your plight and to hopefully help advance the cause

1151
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 1: of justice, which the wheels are turning. And you know,

1152
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: you have a great team. We have this pending motion.

1153
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: I guess right, yep, And I'm projecting positive outcomes as

1154
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: I know you are, and we have a lot of

1155
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 1: legal support.

1156
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 5: I mean, because all of Anthony's team is they've got

1157
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 5: great lawyers, They've been totally helpful. I think the whole network,

1158
00:57:56,280 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 5: the innocence network, will be supportive on the legal issue

1159
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 5: at the very least because of the question of why

1160
00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:05,959
Speaker 5: one person still in jail and the other one isn't.

1161
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,479
Speaker 5: So I think that appeals just on an emotional gut

1162
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 5: level to people.

1163
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 7: So I think we're gonna get.

1164
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 5: A lot of support on behalf of our position in

1165
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 5: the court. So I feel actually quite positively that we'll

1166
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 5: we'll get.

1167
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 7: A new trial.

1168
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 1: And when we do, I think it's impossible to imagine

1169
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: how a jury you can look at this evidence now

1170
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: and say yeah, no, yeah, I mean reasonable doubt, my ass.

1171
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 1: I mean, this thing is it's a mountain of shot.

1172
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 5: In the intervening years, also, people have learned a lot

1173
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 5: about why folks falsely confess and how that happens. I

1174
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 5: think that public is much more educated.

1175
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 7: And jurors will be as well.

1176
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 5: So I think at the time that Andy was convicted,

1177
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 5: nobody believed that individuals falsely confessed, So if they heard

1178
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 5: a confession, they figured it must be true, and I

1179
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 5: don't think they needed much additional evidence, and they had

1180
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 5: Denise Rose. So with the two of those statements, I

1181
00:58:59,560 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 5: think it would have been very hard in that time

1182
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 5: to have gotten a not guilty verdict. Now it's a

1183
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 5: very different story. We know a lot more about what

1184
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 5: people do, and we know a lot more, unfortunately about

1185
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 5: police practices.

1186
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to say this before I turn it

1187
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: over to you for closing remarks. Having heard about you

1188
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,320
Speaker 1: and heard about your case for some time now, I

1189
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: really wanted to come up here and meet you. Now

1190
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 1: that I have met you and getting a sense of

1191
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: your strength and your spirit, I can say that I'm

1192
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: going to do everything in my power to help Adele.

1193
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: In the team, there's a lot of people who care

1194
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: about you and care about this case and care about justice,

1195
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: and we're just going to keep going until we get

1196
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 1: you out. So with that, I mean, you've said a

1197
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: lot and you don't have to say anything else. But

1198
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,520
Speaker 1: if there's anything else you want to share with the

1199
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:50,479
Speaker 1: audience now, it would be a good time to do it.

1200
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 2: All right, Well, you know, first, I just want to

1201
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 2: thank you Sabin, with Dell everybody listening for your support.

1202
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 2: Continued support, future support or it means a lot.

1203
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 3: It really does.

1204
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:04,680
Speaker 2: You got to find strength in yourself in order to

1205
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 2: face adversity and going through the situation. It's a constant battle.

1206
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 2: But I won't give up. You can't give up. Everybody

1207
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 2: be hearing from me soon. I got a start to

1208
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 2: tell I stay positive, I stay driven. Otherwise I'm subjected

1209
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 2: to just the whims and the mercy of what they

1210
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:24,920
Speaker 2: did to me, and I can't let that happen.

1211
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: Last question, do you want people to write to you?

1212
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: Is there any social media you want them to go

1213
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: to you?

1214
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 2: I mean absolutely, I would love to hear from anybody

1215
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 2: and everybody you know.

1216
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: Can you give the information of where people can write?

1217
01:00:37,840 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 2: Wendy Correctional Facility all in New York? I'm not sure

1218
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: the zip cord. I apologize for that.

1219
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: Wendy wnd WE and.

1220
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,479
Speaker 3: De Correctional facility. It's an old in New York.

1221
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 2: Ald E And my name is Andrew kreevac kr I

1222
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 2: v AK and my DIN number is ninety seven A

1223
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 2: four two three six. If you want to know a

1224
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 2: little bit more about me, you could look up obviously

1225
01:00:58,160 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 2: my colt of Anthony, the Pippo Home, A lot of

1226
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 2: the information is on his Facebook.

1227
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:04,439
Speaker 1: Page or just google your name and my name.

1228
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of news articles recently through

1229
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:09,640
Speaker 2: the exposure of the evidence and things that came out

1230
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 2: with Anthony's retrial. Also, Jeffrey Deskovic, who I'm in close

1231
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 2: contact with, is also in my corner and speaks of

1232
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,919
Speaker 2: my case. And you know, I want to just thank

1233
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 2: those that have reached out to me so far, some

1234
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 2: of which I'm corresponding with, and I'm looking to link

1235
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 2: up with as many people as possible, just pay forward,

1236
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 2: do something positive.

1237
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up too, because Jeffrey Deskovic,

1238
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 1: who had a terrible thing in common with you, which

1239
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 1: was this lying polygraph examiner, has become a very powerful

1240
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:42,560
Speaker 1: advocate for the wrongfully convicted, and he's been on the show,

1241
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 1: he passed the bar in New York State, and I

1242
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 1: do want to just mention that he has been a

1243
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: very vocal and passionate advocate of yours and Anthony's and

1244
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 1: others who've been wrongfully convicted. So shout out to jeff

1245
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 1: and I know he's here in spirit and he's on

1246
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 1: your side. Other one, we're all pushing this snowball up

1247
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: to health together.

1248
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 3: And I appreciate it. I really do.

1249
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:07,920
Speaker 2: I know sometimes I can't in the future. People, You

1250
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 2: just see how much I appreciate things. But like I said,

1251
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 2: it's up to us to make change and eventually we're over.

1252
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 3: Cool.

1253
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Ronfuel Conviction behind bars, and

1254
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 1: I want to thank well the star of our show

1255
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 1: today who I'm very excited to see on the outside soon,

1256
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 1: Andrew Kreevac. Thank you for being on and at del Bernhard.

1257
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

1258
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 1: This is a wonderful lawyer.

1259
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 7: Thank you.

1260
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 1: Thank you to our producers, to Bean Jansen for coming

1261
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,959
Speaker 1: and making us sound as good as we can even

1262
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 1: with all of the deal cool.

1263
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 5: Thank you Jason for doing this work and making a

1264
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:43,200
Speaker 5: difference in so many people's lives.

1265
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to say that too. You know, I

1266
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 2: definitely applored your longevity. It means a lot. Like I said,

1267
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:53,600
Speaker 2: you know, it's because of people like you that allow

1268
01:02:53,680 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 2: people like me to have the opportunity to.

1269
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 3: Correct these rooms. So it definitely touches.

1270
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: My heart won't stop, not gonna stop, and I'm very

1271
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,560
Speaker 1: stubborn and that's a good thing in this line of work.

1272
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 1: Because you need it. And like I said, I've seen

1273
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: too many miracles to stop believing in miracles. Don't forget

1274
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts,

1275
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 1: it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

1276
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:28,040
Speaker 1: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in

1277
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

1278
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,640
Speaker 1: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot orgorg to learn how

1279
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

1280
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in

1281
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

1282
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

1283
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 1: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

1284
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: Jason Flam is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

1285
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number One.

1286
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 3: The Boy Went the

1287
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:02,959
Speaker 4: Wind, The Boy Undered Dream,