1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent. 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: Coverage that is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, 9 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: let's get to the show. 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 3: We're joined now by Professor Rod Stiegel, he who is 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 3: the Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies an endowed 12 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 3: Professor in the Study of Modern Genocide at Stockton University, 13 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 3: where he also serves as director of the Master of 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 3: Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies. 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 2: Now. 16 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 3: Professor Siegel, towards the very beginning of Israel's response to 17 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 3: Hamas's October seventh assault, published a widely read piece in 18 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 3: Jewish Currents titled A Textbook Case of Genocide, which was 19 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 3: controversial and debated at the time. We're now more than 20 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:18,320 Speaker 3: two months away from that piece and more than more 21 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 3: than twenty thousand civilian or casualties away from that piece 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 3: as well, so we wanted to check back in with 23 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 3: Professor Siegel about what we're seeing, what's going on. So, 24 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 3: first of all, thank you so much for joining us 25 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 3: and lending your expertise here. 26 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for having me. 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 3: And let me start by asking what does it mean 28 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 3: to be a kind of professor of genocide studies? What 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 3: is that field like, where did it come from and 30 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 3: how did you get involved in it? 31 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: Well, I mean my involvement in the field started actually 32 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: from a master's degree in Jewish history with a focus 33 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: on the Holocaust, and then I went on to do 34 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,120 Speaker 1: a PhD in history, again with a focus on Holocaust 35 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: and genocide studies. And you know, the field. You know, 36 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: we can talk about it a bit, a bit more 37 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: in detail perhaps, but you know, these days, being I 38 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: think working in Holocaust and genocide studies is maybe I 39 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: would say, very confusing. The world in twenty twenty three 40 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: was not supposed to look like it looks like for 41 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: people working in this field for a couple a few 42 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: decades now, and you know, people in this field definitely 43 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,640 Speaker 1: never imagined I think that we would be seeing what 44 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: we're seeing now in Israel's genocidal back on Gaza. And 45 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: that's why we're also seeing a major crisis in Holocaust 46 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: and genocide studies today. I think there's the field is 47 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: very divided between people who say that what we're seeing now, 48 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: what we're witnessing this ISRAELI Attech on Gaza, requires that 49 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: we really rethink perhaps various assumptions that we've had in 50 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: the field, and then there are others who unfortunately say, no, 51 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: you know, there's nothing here that requires any rethinking and 52 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: basically business as usual. I mean, among the people in 53 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: the first group, and I include myself in them, who 54 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: think that this requires major rethinking, we can you can 55 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: think about the statement of Scholars of sixty scholars in 56 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: Holocaust and Genocide Studies that was published last week, which 57 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: I coordinated and organized and helped draft the statement that 58 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: we put together about Israel's genocidal assault on Gaza and 59 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: its meanings and implications. And among the second group, there 60 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: was a statement several weeks ago that was circulated primarily 61 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: by scholars of the Holocaust, and that one for instance, 62 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,239 Speaker 1: did not mention any kind of crime but in Israel's 63 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: attack on Gaza, not genocide, of course, but not any 64 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: other crime, and also engaged in this dehumanization of Palestinians 65 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: who appear in that statement by Holocaust scholars really only 66 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: as quote unquote human shields. Right, So there their humanity 67 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: is recognized, but actually not really recognized only when they 68 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: appear as human shields. And it's actually in some part 69 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: in response to that statement by Holocaust scholars that the 70 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: second statement by Holocaust and Genocide studies scholars against sixty scholars, 71 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: you know, some of the some of them really central 72 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: figures in the field, very influential scholars for decades in 73 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:39,719 Speaker 1: the field, have signed our statement that you know, it's meaning, 74 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: as I said, is that business as usual in Holocaust 75 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: and genocide studies is not possible moving forward. 76 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 3: And so a lot of lay people who hear the 77 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 3: claim that Israel is carrying out a genocidal attack often 78 00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 3: respond by saying, that's that's wildly inflammatory. It does a 79 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 3: disservice to the memory of the Holocaust. What are some 80 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 3: what does that critique get wrong? What are some misconceptions 81 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 3: about what genocide is? 82 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, there's one of the misconceptions about genocide is 83 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: that it's about killing all the targeted all the members 84 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: all the members of the targeted group immediately or very 85 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: quickly and that's how genocide is supposed to look like. Now, 86 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: this is just actually wrong. The only way that we 87 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: can actually think about genocide is according to the UN 88 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of 89 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 1: Genocide from December nineteen forty eight. And we'll come back 90 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,679 Speaker 1: to that in a second. But it's important to mention 91 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: that this misconception about what genocide is is also based 92 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: on a misconception of actually what the Holocaust was, because 93 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: this misconception is basically based on the idea that genocide 94 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: is supposed to look like the Holocaust, and for many people, 95 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: the Holocaust is about just the Nazis killing all the 96 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: Jews immediately, which was not the case the Holocaust. Actually, 97 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: when you really look at the history of the Holocaust, 98 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: it shows us that genocide is a process. The Holocaust 99 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: was a process, and the process involved two and a 100 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: half years actually of the Nazis experience attacking Jews, including 101 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: killing Jews, but various forms of mass milids against Jews 102 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: and experimenting mostly with forced displacement, with what we call 103 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: more commonly quote ethnic cleansing, right that is, pushing as 104 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: many Jews as possible out of German controlled territories, expanding 105 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: told territories during the war. So from the fall of 106 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine, for two and a half years until 107 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: the spring of nineteen forty two, this process of ethnic 108 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: cleansing intensified in various ways in the context, primarily in 109 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: the context of the war, so that by the spring 110 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty two, the Germans arrive at their final 111 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: version of what this final solution of the German of 112 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:10,679 Speaker 1: the Jewish question, that is, to kill every Jew within 113 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 1: German reach. But it takes two and a half years. 114 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: It involves many other forms of mass violence, gatilization, starvation 115 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: for slabor, but again mostly force displacement at nic cleansing. 116 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: So it's important to say that this misconception about what 117 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: genocide is is actually rooted in a misconception of what 118 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: the Holocaust was. But when we look at the convention, 119 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: at the Genocide Convention, it's also important to say that 120 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,199 Speaker 1: an international law, by the way, there is no hierarchy, right, 121 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: So this popular idea that there is a hierarchy of 122 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: international crimes is simply not true an international law, there 123 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 1: are different crimes with different elements to them, and when 124 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: we look at genocide, there are indeed a number of 125 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: elements that differentiated from other crimes. One of them is intent. 126 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: So the language of the convention is that genocide is 127 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: a crime that has intent to destroy a group that's 128 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: defined in national, ethnic, religious, or racial terms as such, 129 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: meaning that the members of the group need to be 130 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: targeted as members of the group, right and not for 131 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: any individual region, for any other reason, right as members 132 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: of the group, and certainly as the perpetrators imagine their 133 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: group membership. And there needs to be an intent. Now, 134 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: intent is a very high thrishold, right, and that's the 135 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: reason that we don't have many cases of mass violence 136 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: since nineteen forty eight that are recognized as genocide. We 137 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: can think about the Randa genocide. Of course, in all 138 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: the wars and violence in the former Yugoslavian the nineteen nineties, 139 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: only Sir Bernitza is recognized as an act of genocide, 140 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,720 Speaker 1: But there's very few Why because perpetrators don't walk around 141 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:05,839 Speaker 1: pressing their intent explicitly and clearly. Here in this case 142 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: they do again, we can think why. This is why 143 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: we have such unashamed, clear, explicit, direct statements of intent 144 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: that also happened. By the way, it's important to say 145 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 1: over time. Right, It's not, as has been argued just 146 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,719 Speaker 1: in the first week after the seventh of October the 147 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: hamas Led attack and massacre of about twelve hundred Israeli is. No, 148 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,239 Speaker 1: it's over time, and it actually also uses various mechanisms 149 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: of expressing this intent and also dehumanizing Palestinians. Right. So 150 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: intent is one thing that differentiates genocide from other crimes, 151 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: but also very importantly in the UN Genocide Convention, so 152 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 1: intent is explained an Article two where genocide is defined 153 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 1: in international law. 154 00:10:57,160 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: Right. 155 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: And another issue that differentiated genocide from other crimes is 156 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:09,479 Speaker 1: the legal obligation in Article one that once states recognize 157 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: that there is a clear risk of genocide or that 158 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: genocide is already unfolding, but it's enough that there's a 159 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: clear risk of genocide, right, there's an obligation to intervene 160 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: to stop it and to prevent it, which is very 161 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: different than other crimes and international law. Another issue that 162 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: again we can elaborate more on, perhaps is incitement, right, 163 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: which is again a different crime in the Genocide Convention, 164 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: that's Article three, but related so incitement to genocide, which 165 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: usually happens actually in media discourses but also in political 166 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: discourses or in just sometimes in public spaces, in various ways. 167 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: And it's important to say that is real today and 168 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 1: anyone who follows Hebrew language sources and they're all over 169 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: social media today, and the Israeli media, Israel is, you know, 170 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: very deeply immersed in a genocidal discourse. We see this 171 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: in the media since in the Israeli media since seventh 172 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: of October. We see this in politics, We see this 173 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: in public spaces, and I'm talking about, you know, huge 174 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: signs hanging on the bridges of the Tel Aviv Freeway 175 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: right after the seventh of October calling to flatten Gaza, 176 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 1: to destroy Gaza. Uh written on them directly that the 177 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: image of triumph would be zero people in Gaza, so 178 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: very direct, again, very explicit. Does not you know, you 179 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: don't need a degree in comparative literature to interpret these 180 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: kinds of signs and statements and so but in the 181 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: media discourse and in the political discourse in Israel after 182 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: seventh of October, we see clear incitement to genocide, right, clear, 183 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: clear incitement to genocide. And all this has been widely 184 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: published and I can repeat some of the quotes here 185 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: if needed. But it's important to say that, you know, 186 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: one of the cases that comes close to this kind 187 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: of society immersed in a genocidal discourse perhaps is Rhonda 188 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: and the Rwanda genocide in nineteen ninety four, that as 189 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: the genocide was unfolding, right, we had journalists and radio 190 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: people inciting for genocide for the murder of Tutsis in 191 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: that case. And it's important to say that in the ICTR, 192 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: in the post genocide trials in the case of Rwanda, 193 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: there was also a media case where journalists indeed stood 194 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 1: trial and were convicted for incitement to genocide. So that's 195 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: another element that actually differentiates genocide from other crimes in 196 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 1: international law. And again we see here like the issue 197 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: of intent, which is an article too and refers to 198 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: people with what's called command authority in international law. So 199 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: state leaders, war cabinetmitterers, a ministers, and senior army officers. 200 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: Also their statements are very clear, explicit and unashamed. Also, 201 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: incitement in Israel is clear, explicit and unashamed. I mean 202 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: just yesterday or the day before, just to give a 203 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: recent example, a journalist at Zvirgraskelli on Channel thirteen on 204 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: the TV in Israel just openly, outright said that he 205 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: thinks that at the beginning, Israel made a mistake because 206 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: it should have the Israeli attack on guys, it should 207 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: have been much more actually violent and severe, and it 208 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: should have killed one hundred thousand Palestinians. Right now, only 209 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: the TV anchor there, you know, said are you sure 210 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: that that's what you're saying? There was some exchange between them, 211 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: you know, is this All the other people they're sitting 212 00:14:56,080 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: had nothing to say, And the official response of thirteen 213 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: of days Reelly to V to that was that it's 214 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: you know that we're just expressing the plurality of you know, 215 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: positions in Israeli society. Right, So this is outright, unashamed, right, 216 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: It's very common today, it's in Israel, and it's something 217 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: I think we should all be paying attention to. 218 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 4: I mean, I want to pick up on that point, 219 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 4: because I definitely don't mean this as a leading question. 220 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: I'm generally curious. 221 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 4: A lot of people in Israel are afraid that they 222 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 4: live amongst other countries where it's not safe to be 223 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 4: Jewish and where people engage in by this definition of genocide, 224 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 4: arguably genocidal discourse and I wanted to get your thoughts 225 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 4: on that, not to suggest that there's any justification for 226 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 4: you know, sort of apples to apples in terms of 227 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 4: military operations or anything like that. But is Hamas engaged 228 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 4: in genicidal intentionality? Are they engaged in genocidal discourse? I 229 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 4: know they're not a state actor in the same way, 230 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 4: and maybe that's a sort of difference by the UN definition, 231 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 4: I'm curious about that. But also countries like Iran in 232 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 4: the way that they approach just Jewish people who live 233 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 4: around the world, who live in Israel? Does that by 234 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 4: the definition the UN definition in nineteen forty eight, does 235 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 4: that sort of fit into it? How should we think 236 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 4: about the way they discuss Jews. 237 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's important to explain also that the 238 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: UN definition requires five acts, right, it lists five acts 239 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: that are considered genocide. So there's intent, there is the 240 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: dynamics on the ground, but it's not directly in the convention. 241 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: But it's very clear that genocide also requires capacity to 242 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: carry it out, right, and if you don't have that capacity, 243 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: so it's not intent itself is not enough, right, you 244 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 1: have to show the dynamics of violence on the ground 245 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: in order to show genocide, and I think that in 246 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: Israel's attack on Gaza. Now we have, you know, enough 247 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: evidence so far that the attack, as many experts now 248 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: have said, is unprecedented, its intensity and its levels of 249 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: killing and destruction unprecedented, that is since World War two. Right, 250 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: we have, as you said at the beginning, more than 251 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: twenty thousand Palestinians who have been killed so far. I mean, 252 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: the north of Gaza is basically destroyed completely. And it's 253 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: important to say that Israel's attack targets everything. They're schools, mosques, universities, churches, 254 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: agricultural fields. Right, Israel has bombs from the beginning, agricultural fields. Well, 255 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: there is nothing there except agricultural fields, which tells us 256 00:17:54,840 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: something of course about the intention of the attack. The 257 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: levels of destruction. More than half of all the buildings 258 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: and Gaza have been destroyed, the infrastructure have been destroyed. 259 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: More than two million Palestinians have been forcibly displaced. Right, 260 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: specific groups are targeted. Right journalists, as we know very clearly, 261 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: are targeted at least one or two on average a day, 262 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: So that you know, so the very part for Palestinians 263 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: to actually document the attack against them healthcare professionals and 264 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: doctors are targeted. Hospitals specifically are targeted, which is very 265 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: very important when we think about genocide and the total 266 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: siege policy of Israel, so deliberately creating conditions of life 267 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 1: calculated to bring about the destruction of the group and 268 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: whole in part, which is one of the acts of 269 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: genocide in the convention. Targeting of hospitals shows us that 270 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: very clearly. But for all of these things you need capacity, right, 271 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: and it's clear that the Hamas Ramas has no capacity 272 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: to carry out a genocidal assault on Israel. D seventh. 273 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: It's important to say that the Ramas led attack on 274 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: seventh of October was a horrific and horrendous act of 275 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: mass murder. It was a massive terrorist attack. It definitely 276 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: involved war crimes and crimes against humanity that are also 277 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: ongoing in the sense of hostage taking. Right, There's no 278 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: doubt about any of this. But Ramas has no capacity 279 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 1: to carry out genocide. And also we don't see in 280 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:48,719 Speaker 1: the case of Hamas this kind of the way that 281 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 1: intention has been expressed and is being expressed in the 282 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: case of Israel over time, using various mechanisms in an 283 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 1: unashamed way. We don't see this actually in the case 284 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: of Ramas. Yes, there are some statements in the case 285 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: of Haramas about destroying Israel, absolutely, but do we see 286 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: in a kind of systematic way as we see in 287 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: Israel's attack, together with the dynamics of violence, together with 288 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: the capacity to carry out genocidal assault. No, we don't 289 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: see it in the case of Hamas. It's also very 290 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: important to mention, by the way, that there is a 291 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: military response that is genocidal, right, that is what Israel 292 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: did after the seventh of October. Right, So a military 293 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: response that is genocidal is illegal in any case under 294 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: international law. Right, genocide is an illegal response under international law. 295 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: Even if the Ramas attack would be considered genocide, and 296 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: as I just explained, it cannot actually be considered genocidal. 297 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 3: So one of the characteristics, as you mentioned, of meeting 298 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 3: the the kind of genocide threshold is you know, attacking 299 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 3: an ethnic group, you know, in whole and destroying them 300 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 3: in whole or in part. So what what what does 301 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 3: it mean by in part? Because you know Hamas's attack 302 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,400 Speaker 3: on October seventh, depending on the definition of in part, 303 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 3: would seem to fit just as the IDF's attack on 304 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 3: Palestinians and Gaza, which seems to fit with in part. 305 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 3: So what does in part mean, especially. 306 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 4: If you consider, for example, Iran potentially funding Hamas in 307 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 4: this case. I think that's a fair. 308 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: Question, right, right, Well, again, I think you know, it's 309 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: important to as. I just said that that genocide requires 310 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: that you have the capacity to carry it out, right, 311 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: that there's a state capacity to carry it out, and 312 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: there is no such capacity by Hamas. Right, that's first. 313 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: That's firstly. Now in part that's a good question, and 314 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of discussion about this, but I 315 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: think that we're beyond that in a way actually in 316 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: the case of Gaiza, because Israel's aim there, the physical 317 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: destruction of Palestinian society and life at Gaza now is 318 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: total the idea. And actually you know from the from 319 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: the very first days and the certain things of October, 320 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: there was a document that was leaked by the Israeli 321 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 1: Intelligence Ministry that outlined the complete ethnic lensing basically of 322 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: Palestinians from Gaiza, so their removal to the Sinai Desert 323 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: in Egypt. And of course there is repeated calls in 324 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: Israeli politics and society and media. As I said about 325 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: quote a second Knakba, right, referring to the nineteen forty 326 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: eight Nakba, during the nineteen forty eight war, when Israel 327 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: was created and seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinians were expelled, 328 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand Palestinians were victims of massacres, hundreds of Palestinians 329 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: towns and villages were destroyed completely and erased, so the 330 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: Palestinian Nakba, and then of course the ongoing Palestinian nacua 331 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: since then, in various forms of Israeli mass vilus an 332 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: attack against Palestinians, including military occupation, siege and terment, torture, 333 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, ongoing since then, and now indeed, right, a 334 00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: second nakba as that has been called for from the 335 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 1: seventh of October. And actually it's important to say that 336 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,360 Speaker 1: in many cases the statements about creating a second Nakba 337 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 1: are calling for nakba. That quote will overshadow, right, the 338 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight Knappa, which indeed is what we're seeing 339 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: actually also in terms of numbers, but in terms of 340 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: again the intensity of killing and destruction. So the destruction 341 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: that we're now seeing in Gaza. Right, and again there's 342 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: numerous experts who are telling us that the levels of destruction, 343 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: this carpet bombing from the sky, from the ground, right, 344 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: the levels of killing twenty thousand, more than twenty thousand people, 345 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 1: and there are furse thousands buried under the rubble in 346 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: a bit more than two months. Right. This takes us 347 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: now into really we have to understand in the sphere 348 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: of total destruction of Palestinian society and culture, because also 349 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: cultural archeological sites are bombed, cultural sites are bombed. Right. 350 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: The idea is to destroy and erase right Palestinian life 351 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: and society and Gaza and remove Palestinians from there completely. 352 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: And this is again expressed in various ways in Israeli 353 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: media and culture and society in public space is unashamed. Right, 354 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: this calling for a second Nakaba, and as I said, 355 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: force displacement, as we're seeing now in Gaza about two millions, 356 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: so virtually almost all the population in Gaza is forcibly 357 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: displaced under conditions of total siege. Israel's ninth of October 358 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: Israeli Defense Ministry i've Gone's total siege proclamation no food, 359 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: no water, so starvation policies. There's no clean water. We've seen, 360 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: we're already seeing the outbreak of infectious disease, right, So 361 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: deliberately creating conditions of life calculated to bring about destruction 362 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: of the group. So force displacement indeed, as in the 363 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: Nazi case, by the way, right, in many cases, escalates 364 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: into basically outright mass murder, right, so genocide. So we're 365 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: seeing this now and unfolding in front of our eyes. 366 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: But it's also important, by the way to say that 367 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: the discourse about deporting millions of people into a desert, 368 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: which is what we're hearing now in the case of 369 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: Palestinians and guys, of deporting them to the Sinai desert 370 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: is also should also raise all the alarms that we 371 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,719 Speaker 1: have because we know historically that deserts have been used 372 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: as a weapon of genocide. Historically. We can think about 373 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: the Armenian genocide, the deportations of the Armenians to the 374 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: Syriani Rock desert, right, the massacres on the way, but 375 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: the idea that they would reach the desert and they 376 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: would die there. Right. We can think about the herero 377 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: Inama genocide and German Southeast Africa in the early twentieth century, 378 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: where the Germans put down by the way a rebellion 379 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: by the colonized Herero by chasing them into the desert 380 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: where they died of starvation and dehydration. Right, almost all 381 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: the Herero actually were destroyed. Eighty percent of the group 382 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: were destroyed in this case of genocide. So I think 383 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: that in the case of Gaza, we have to be 384 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: clear we're actually beyond the in hoole or in part. 385 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: You are now witnessing right the destruction of Palestinian life 386 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: and society and Gaza and whole. 387 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 3: And to your point about the infectious diseases, we have 388 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 3: new numbers from the Gods and Ministry of Health. This 389 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 3: is three hundred and fifty five thousand people, which is, 390 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 3: you know, approaching a quarter of the population are suffering 391 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 3: from infectious diseases. At this point, that number is only 392 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 3: going to continue to grow. But one of the interesting 393 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 3: phenomena in this debate over the last two months has 394 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 3: been the different way that the war has talked about 395 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 3: here in the United States versus Israel. Oftentimes United States politicians. 396 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 3: We had Ted cruz On here making this claim here 397 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 3: that you know, nobody tries harder to protect civilian life 398 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 3: than the Israelis. But then you follow the discourse in Israel, 399 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 3: you don't see those claims being made, you know, you 400 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 3: see claims to the opposite, that we need you know, 401 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 3: damage is more important than precision, for instance. So I'm 402 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 3: curious how that translates when it comes to the question 403 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 3: of genocide. Is what is the debate like in the 404 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 3: Hebrew language media and Israeli media over the question of 405 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 3: whether the Israel is carrying out a genocidal attack? Does 406 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 3: that does that get discussed? Is it rejected because it's 407 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 3: it's saying now that that it's that that is outrageous 408 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 3: and canning be discussed. Or are there people who are saying, 409 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 3: you know, you know, yes we are and we ought 410 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 3: to be because it's justified. 411 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: No, I mean, we're in Israel, a society today almost 412 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: in its entirety, is immersed in in a in a 413 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: very destructive and indigenousidal discourse. 414 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 3: Uh, would they agree with that claim? Like, would would 415 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 3: they say, yes, that's what we're that's where we are. 416 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: Of course not. But you know, it's very important to 417 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: say historically, perpetrators of genocide and societies that we're engaged 418 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: in the genocidal attack against another group almost always see 419 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: themselves as the victims. Right. The Nazis actually understood themselves 420 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: to be under acute danger and attack by quote unquote 421 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: world jury. Right, So their attack against the Jews was 422 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: merely a self defense, right against these evil forces conspiring 423 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: to destroy Germany and attack them. Right, This is a 424 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: very common mechanism. The Ottoman authorities in World War One 425 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: saw them saw the state as under attack by Armenians 426 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: who are actually agents of the Russian enemies during World 427 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: War One. So deporting them to the desert was merely 428 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: an active self defense of removing them from the front 429 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: so that they don't collaborate with the Russian enemy. This 430 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: is a very very typical mechanism of perpetrators and societies 431 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: immerged in genocidal violence. There's nothing very special here. So 432 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 1: of course that's what we're seeing. That's what we're hearing 433 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: now in Israel, that this is basically just this is 434 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: really in Israel, we're actually seeing a heightened sort of 435 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: this kind of discourse. Right, this is actually war in 436 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: defense of Western civilization. Right, this is a war of 437 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: course against Ramas and so on and so forth. But again, 438 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: so this would be in the social setting. And I 439 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: do have to say that there is a minority of 440 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: people in Israel still very committed to a different kind 441 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: of discourse, including in the media. So if we think 442 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: about nine plus nine seven two Jewish Palestinian media outlet, 443 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: which I urge all your listeners and viewers to check 444 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: it out plus nine seven two definitely publishes continuously a 445 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: lot of critique, including discussions about the discourse of related 446 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: to the issue of genocide. But there Israel, you know, media, 447 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: mainstream media, and society and discuss across political device left right, center, 448 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 1: whatever it is, right is very immersed in a discourse 449 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 1: that this isn't this is self defense, right, This genocidal 450 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,960 Speaker 1: assault is self defense, even though we have and again 451 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: just yesterday, I think there was an officer in the 452 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: Israeli Army that outright in a public event, right, referring 453 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: actually to a biblical story, which is important because one 454 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: of the mechanisms of intent was, as expressed by Israeli 455 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: Prime Minister Benjamintanielle, was the invocation of the biblical story 456 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: of a maleek, right, one of the expressions of genocidal intent. 457 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: So this officer in the Israeli Army spoke about what 458 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,920 Speaker 1: his unit did under his command right in Gaza as 459 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: an act of genocidal revenge. Basically, he framed it as 460 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 1: you know, the seventh of October attack was uh was 461 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 1: an attack against the honor of the Israeli nation, and 462 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 1: his acts in Gaza, his unit reacted as genocidal revenge, 463 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 1: and he said that this should be extended to all 464 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: of Gaza, right to restore this, you know, this the 465 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: honor of the nation. So even though we have these 466 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: kinds of things, and of course actually a lot of 467 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: videos that Israeli soldiers and officers themselves have taken and 468 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: posted on social media that mirror the language of intent 469 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: by people with command authority in Israeli in Israel, and 470 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: then the language of incitement in Israeli media. So we 471 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,080 Speaker 1: have soldiers talking about the fact that they understand that 472 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: they're in Gaza to root out the seat of a 473 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: Malek quote, or soldiers singing that there's the slogan of 474 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:52,640 Speaker 1: their unit is there are no innocent civilians. Right again, explicitly, 475 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 1: I'm ashamed. We have all of this, right, it's in 476 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: front of our eyes constantly, right, or we have so 477 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: another video that was went very viral on social media, 478 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 1: the soldiers burning the truck with food and water in it, right, 479 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: and explaining as they're doing it right, that Palestinian children 480 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: are all terrorists, right, for example, so one point one people, 481 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: a million people in Guys under the age of eighteen, right, 482 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 1: all terrorists, right, No innocent civilians, all these things. Even 483 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: though we have all of this right, we still have 484 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: a discourse which is basically a denialist discourse. And this 485 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: is again very common. States and societies engaged in genocide 486 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: usually deny it already as it's unfolding. They also deny 487 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: it later, but the denial starts as the genocide unfolds. 488 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: So even though we have these now we live in 489 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: this media age and the social media age, even though 490 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: everything is in our face right, we're still in this 491 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: common mechanism of denying what is in our face. We 492 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 1: should start facing this real reality. 493 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 4: And my last question just kind of goes back to 494 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 4: what we were talking about initially, the disconnect between the 495 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 4: reality of the un definition that was established in nineteen 496 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 4: forty eight and how a lot of people look back 497 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 4: or compare contemporary genocides unfolding in front of their eyes 498 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 4: to for example, the Holocaust and even misconceptions about the 499 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 4: Holocausts that have sort of been passed down through simplified 500 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 4: narratives that you get taught in history class and all 501 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 4: of that. There's a not insignificant portion of the Israeli 502 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 4: population that is Muslim, and I think a lot of 503 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 4: people and probably a lot of people in Israel who 504 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 4: look at what they're doing is primarily self defense to 505 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 4: your point, would say, well, that's kind of the difference 506 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 4: here is that we're not trying to eliminate our own 507 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:47,520 Speaker 4: Muslim population outside of these contested territories outside of Gaza 508 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 4: and the West Bank we protect. And we could have 509 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 4: a whole conversation about the difference in rights between Muslim 510 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 4: Israelis and Jewish Israelis, but the bottom line is that 511 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 4: question of dominating the sort of lives of Muslims who 512 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 4: live in Israel. Is that part of the disconnect here 513 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 4: that the UN definition functions in a different way than 514 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 4: a lot of people who maybe are in Israel or 515 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 4: defend Israel here in the US and say it's not 516 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 4: if it we were a genocide Israel would be, you know, 517 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,359 Speaker 4: putting Muslim Israelis in you know, the same that they 518 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 4: would be attacking them in the same way. 519 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 1: Is that part of this I think that you're offering 520 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: first of all to Israel Palestinians, and there are there 521 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: is a not insignificant part of Israel Palestinians or Christians, 522 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: not only Muslims. That's absolutely true. Yeah, Israel by the way, 523 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: has completely destroyed the Christian community and Gaza as well 524 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:43,720 Speaker 1: in this attack. It's another thing. So you're talking about 525 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: Palestinian citizens of Israel, that's what you're talking about, almost 526 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:51,959 Speaker 1: two million people. So again it's important to say that 527 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: genocide is a process, and what we're seeing now this 528 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: process of the attack in Gaza, and especially in the 529 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: frame of incitement, the acute incitement in Israel. It's definitely 530 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: part of the genocide Convention is a convention of the 531 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide. If we 532 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: think about prevention. Yesstinian Israelis are in raved danger now 533 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: and we see it, by the way, in the West 534 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,439 Speaker 1: Bank with an unbelievable intensified attack. In any case, twenty 535 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: twenty three, even before the seventh of October, by the way, 536 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: was the most lethal year for Palestinians in the West Bank. Right, 537 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 1: Amass does not control the West Bank. By the way, right, 538 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: we still see unbelievable ethnic cleansing in the West Bank. 539 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: I mean Area C, which is sixty percent of the 540 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:35,839 Speaker 1: West Bank is basically all of it is now under 541 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 1: Israel settler control and full of Israeli settlements. Right. Israel 542 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,760 Speaker 1: has killed now hundreds of Palestinians only since the seventh 543 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: of October. There's also hundreds in the West Bank and 544 00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: East Rulism have been killed before the seventh of October 545 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, but hundreds thousands have been arrested, 546 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: sixteen whole communities and probably war have been completely forcibly 547 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 1: displayed in the West Bank since the seventh of October. 548 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: Again no Jamas, right. So in the West Bank and 549 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: East Jerusalem we definitely see a very quickly escalating right 550 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: violence which was already intense against Palestinians. That's one thing 551 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: if we think about genocide as the process that it 552 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: always is, also in the case of the Holocaust, but 553 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,000 Speaker 1: with Israel Palestinians we also see very very worrying signs. 554 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: So just a couple of minutes on this, because you 555 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: asked and it's actually very, very very important. We have 556 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: to remember that historically, the one hundred and fifty six 557 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,319 Speaker 1: thousand Palestinians who survived in k Band remained within what 558 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: became Israel in nineteen forty eight, were immediately placed under 559 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: a military rule until nineteen sixty six, so almost twenty 560 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: years of military rule. That is, they were immediately seen 561 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: as potential enemies basically, and the most dangerous kind of enemies, 562 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: because the enemies within right like Armenians in the Yanoman 563 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: Empire during World War One in that sense. Now this 564 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: is very important because in twenty eighteen, Israel enacted a 565 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 1: new basic law, the Jewish Nation state law. Israel doesn't 566 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: have a constitution, so basic laws replaced a constitution, and 567 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: that basic law explicitly relegated Israeli Palestinian so twenty one 568 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: percent of the citizens of the state to second class 569 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: citizenship within an explicit framework of settler colonialism. By the way, 570 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,120 Speaker 1: and it's important to say that three years afterwards, in 571 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: May twenty twenty one, the events of May twenty twenty one, 572 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: when Israeli Palestinians came out to protest and in support 573 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: against Israeli violence in East Jerusalem, in the Palestinian neighborhood 574 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,320 Speaker 1: of Cherjerra, but also against yet another attack on Guiza. 575 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: Right because in these sixteen years of siege of Israel 576 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: on Gaza, before the seventh of October, there were repeated attacks, right, 577 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: Israeli Palestinians came out in support. The response of the 578 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 1: state this time was unbelievably violent, a lot of violence, 579 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: a lot of oppress across Israel. But this time also 580 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,960 Speaker 1: Jewish citizens of the state joined the police in attacking 581 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: Palestinian citizens, in some cases as in Haifa, even breaking 582 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,919 Speaker 1: into the houses of Palestinian citizens in Haiphen, attacking them 583 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: in their houses. This is May twenty twenty one. So 584 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,360 Speaker 1: we have the nation state line twenty eighteen. We have 585 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: this in twenty twenty one. We have the background of 586 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: how the state looks at Palestinian citizens right from the 587 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: beginning as basically potential enemies. And now we have unbelievable 588 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: media incitement right against Palestinians as a whole. Right, So yes, 589 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 1: if we think about prevention and if we think genocide 590 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: is a process, Israeli Palestinians, certainly Palestinians in the occupied 591 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: West Manganese Jerusalem are in grave, brave danger. This in 592 00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: no way makes things better in the case of Israel, 593 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: as some people might say, quite the contrary, It makes 594 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: the urgency of talking about genocide right of forefront of 595 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,279 Speaker 1: the genocidal assaulting Gazza in order to think about, as 596 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: I said, incitement, the obligation to intervene and to prevent, right, 597 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,040 Speaker 1: and what's going on in the West Bank and East 598 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:10,880 Speaker 1: Jerusalem and what is going. 599 00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,760 Speaker 3: On, And that actually leads that leads to my last question, 600 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 3: which is, what does it matter if we determine that 601 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 3: what we're seeing as a genocidal assault, what are the 602 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 3: international mechanisms that could be deployed to prevent it, and 603 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 3: what are the mechanisms that can come about to provide 604 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:32,240 Speaker 3: some measure of accountability if there are either. 605 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I mean it matters. It matters greatly because 606 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,720 Speaker 1: as I said, there's an obligation to intervene and prevent. 607 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,720 Speaker 1: So it matters in terms of arms deals because actually 608 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: states that continue to provide arms to Israel. So all 609 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: the Western powers that continue to support Israel are actually, 610 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: if we recognize the crime of genocide, right, are actually 611 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: working against their legal obligations in the Convention of course 612 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: not to aid in a bit genocide, but they're actually 613 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: supposed to be working to prevent genocide. And then if 614 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 1: we think about the international legal framework, right, of course 615 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 1: there's issues of accountability. That's not only for genocide, by 616 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: the way, that's for the very well documented war crimes 617 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: now in this case, and crimes against humanity. And yes, 618 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,080 Speaker 1: should the Hamas perpetrators and planners for the seventh of 619 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,520 Speaker 1: October should be put on trial as well. Absolutely, international 620 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,200 Speaker 1: law should apply to everyone, but should apply to everyone, right, 621 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,360 Speaker 1: so also to the many many israel Is now involved 622 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 1: in israel genocidal attack on Gaza. So there are definitely 623 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,959 Speaker 1: very important applications right in terms of prevention, in terms 624 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: of stopping the violence, in terms of holding the perpetures accountable, 625 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,439 Speaker 1: and then also in terms of thinking how we got 626 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,919 Speaker 1: to the seventh of October, right, So, as I said, 627 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,280 Speaker 1: the larger context of Israeli mass violence from the nineteen 628 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,239 Speaker 1: forty eight Nakoba until today, Israeli settler colonialism, and how 629 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,120 Speaker 1: we move forward right from here, all this is also 630 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:02,760 Speaker 1: very important. 631 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:05,839 Speaker 4: Did you have anything No, I was just gonna say 632 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:07,959 Speaker 4: the only I just want to clarify the only reason 633 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,560 Speaker 4: I specifically invoked the faith in the last question I asked, 634 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,440 Speaker 4: just because I meant it in the context of the 635 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 4: UN definition. I didn't mean to overlook this ethnic Palestinian question. 636 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 4: I just spent it in the sort of broad context 637 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 4: of the UN definition. 638 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,680 Speaker 3: Anyway, I just wanted to clarify, well, Professor Siegel, he's 639 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 3: the Associate Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at Stockton University. 640 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 3: I really appreciate you joining us. 641 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, thank you, thank you so much.