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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. Hello, welcome back to the show. My

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Speaker 1: name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called me Ben.

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Speaker 1: We're joined as always with our superproducer Paul Mission controlled decond.

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Speaker 1: Most importantly, you are you. You are here, and that

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Speaker 1: makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: Interesting way to get into this. Have you guys ever

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Speaker 1: been driving somewhere and you see an exit on the

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Speaker 1: interstate and you think, what if I just went here instead,

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Speaker 1: especially if it has a fun name, you know, like Weed, California,

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Speaker 1: or you know, Cairo, Georgia. Yeah. I almost get off

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Speaker 1: at Beaver Ruin every time I pass that exit. That

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Speaker 1: sounds like for something I don't I can't imagine what,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm always partial to little known,

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Speaker 1: like I love tourist traps, and I'm always partial to

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Speaker 1: you know, something that advertises itself not as the first

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Speaker 1: best of a thing, but like the second or fourth best,

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Speaker 1: where it's like the fourth biggest frying pan in the

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Speaker 1: East Coast then I'm like, I'm in, I'll go. I

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Speaker 1: appreciate the modesty. I'm much more inclined to believe that

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Speaker 1: than the best, because there can only be one best.

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Speaker 1: So it seems like, you know, New York's best cup

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Speaker 1: of coffee or whatever is like at every little diner,

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Speaker 1: but third best, I'd be more inclined to believe there's

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Speaker 1: some stats backing that up. You're welcome. Folks were doing

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Speaker 1: some free marketing for you and guarantee it will work

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Speaker 1: as long as we are not held responsible for the

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Speaker 1: consequences of your decision. And speaking like this is a

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Speaker 1: thing that happens to a lot of people. We all

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Speaker 1: at some point start imagining our lives as they would

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Speaker 1: be if a few decisions were different, or if we

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Speaker 1: went somewhere else. Did you turned left instead of turned right?

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Speaker 1: That's why in fiction the ideas of multiverses are so popular,

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Speaker 1: because we always think about the possibilities of living another life.

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Speaker 1: And if you have ever dreamed of starting over, this

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Speaker 1: is the episode for you. This is the second or

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Speaker 1: fourth best episode for you. There we get to make

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Speaker 1: it sound realistic. Yeah, we're talking about a real life

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Speaker 1: series of government supported conspiracies. Not theories, real genuine conspiracies,

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Speaker 1: paid for by your tax dollars. This is wit sec

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Speaker 1: or witness security, otherwise known as witness protection. Here are

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Speaker 1: the facts. So we've talked about the federal Witness Protection

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Speaker 1: program a good bit recently in an earlier Listener mail

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Speaker 1: segment on the hack that took place targeting the US Marshals.

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Speaker 1: It's a program but you probably are aware of too

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Speaker 1: from like mob movies and the like. It's intended for

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Speaker 1: crucial witnesses who have a valuable testimony to contribute to,

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Speaker 1: you know, trials, and typically folks that would be seen

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Speaker 1: as being in immediate danger as a result of the

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Speaker 1: testimony that they're making. Usually because it targets some dangerous people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: former mafia, cartel, gang members, anyone who is in a

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Speaker 1: tight knit group who is becoming a turn coode essentially

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Speaker 1: against their group. Also terrorists, hey, both domestic and foreign,

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Speaker 1: no matter where you live. And this would be like

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Speaker 1: after the trial probably right, I mean, like you know,

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Speaker 1: because of retribution, not necessarily protecting against witness tampering. That

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Speaker 1: would be more of like a custodial thing that would

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Speaker 1: happen during the course of the drop This is more

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Speaker 1: of a permanent kind of solution, right, This is permanent,

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Speaker 1: and it starts before the testimony because the entire point, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the entire point is to try to keep you know, Johnny,

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Speaker 1: last name or whatever alive so that they can get

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Speaker 1: their testimony on record. And you know a lot of

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Speaker 1: times yeah there, the Marshals are trying to get in

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Speaker 1: front of groups that have a high level of sophistication,

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Speaker 1: an established track record of witness tampering up to and

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Speaker 1: including murder. These aren't the folks who've just bribed someone.

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Speaker 1: They might offer you a bribe, but if they decide

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Speaker 1: it's more effective, slash cheaper to kill you, they will

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Speaker 1: do so without compunction, and they'll sleep just fine at night,

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Speaker 1: no question. Thanks for the clarification. And before we jump forward, guys,

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Speaker 1: I just want to make one quick note on the

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Speaker 1: Marshall's hack. That hack, at least according to the Marshals,

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Speaker 1: did not affect this witness protection program at all, right,

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Speaker 1: because it's kind of firewalled, right, It's how did you

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Speaker 1: describe it, Matt, It's like a cottage on a compound.

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Speaker 1: So the hack did compromise information, but as far as

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Speaker 1: we know, not the information pertaining to whit SEC participants.

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Speaker 1: They hit the cottage instead of the big house, right yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's yeah, yeah yeah. And look, honestly, fellow conspiracy realist,

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Speaker 1: something like whit SEC has existed for a long, long,

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Speaker 1: long long time. I mean, think of the man in

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Speaker 1: the iron mask mask probably wasn't actually iron. Whatever we're

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Speaker 1: fun at parties. Think of Operation Paperclip. You know, when

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Speaker 1: the Allied forces, the US, at least in Paperclip, spirited

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Speaker 1: away Nazi scientists. They made a cost benefit analysis and said,

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Speaker 1: these folks are more valuable to us in a lab

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Speaker 1: than in a prison or in the chair or I

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Speaker 1: guess they were hanging people anyway. Throughout the span of

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Speaker 1: modern civilization, parties funny parties, the authorities of any given

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Speaker 1: power structure have often been willing to bend the rules

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Speaker 1: if you have something of value to offer, and witnessed

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Speaker 1: security as a program, the modern version of it. It

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Speaker 1: really came about as a bunch of individual cases that

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Speaker 1: began in the early nineteen sixties with mob investigations, Right yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Rico cases that have all become movies at this

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Speaker 1: point or limited series, like all of them. Rico, I

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Speaker 1: know that guy, Yes, the worst. Good dude, Good dude,

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Speaker 1: Good dude knows a lot of people this This originally

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Speaker 1: starts with something called the Organized Crime and Racketeering Section

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Speaker 1: of the Department of Justice the DOJ, and they were

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Speaker 1: led by Robert F. Kennedy, who you may recognize for

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Speaker 1: some earlier episodes and in the Lady in a Polka

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Speaker 1: Dot dress, okay, and the Lady in a Polka address. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and one guy named Gerald shr was part of the team.

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Speaker 1: Gerald Shu passed away in twenty twenty, but he is

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Speaker 1: most well known as the man who would go on

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Speaker 1: to create the modern witness Security program. So saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're doing all this protection in these individual cases, let's

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Speaker 1: set a precedent, right, Let's try to get some standards

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Speaker 1: in here so that the left hand knows what the

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Speaker 1: right is doing when it needs to. And they've done

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Speaker 1: a lot. Thousands of people have been in the Witness

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Speaker 1: Protection program, some of whom might be tuning into today's episode.

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Speaker 1: If you are amongst I mean, if you're one of

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Speaker 1: those people, good luck, stay safe, don't do any crimes,

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Speaker 1: don't do any crimes, don't write an email to us.

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Speaker 1: We don't care what your new name is. We'll get

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Speaker 1: into that later. Don't don't don't, don't, don't jaywalk, don't

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Speaker 1: be late on your library books. You know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Stay out with quote to quote the old Josh Clark

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Speaker 1: YouTube series. Just don't be dumb, don't be done. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there you go, But it's not that's easier said than done,

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Speaker 1: because we'll get into dumb. Yeah. Oh boy. Um. But

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Speaker 1: when if I think about the when you think about

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Speaker 1: the numbers, right, Ben, you found some numbers for us here.

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Speaker 1: Over seven thousand, five hundred people since nineteen seventy have

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Speaker 1: been placed into this program. And that's individuals who need

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Speaker 1: to be protected. But what many people, including myself, forget,

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Speaker 1: is that this also includes immediate family members often not always,

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Speaker 1: but often often, Yeah, the spouse, the kids, because you

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Speaker 1: know you, the Marshall Service tried to draw a line

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Speaker 1: and say, look, we don't want to have to be

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Speaker 1: the people who come tell this. You know, four year

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Speaker 1: old your mom disappeared, or to protect the four year

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Speaker 1: old at all times because the mom went into a

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Speaker 1: witness protection right, So now what do you do with

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Speaker 1: a four year old? So targeting the four year old

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Speaker 1: or targeting the immediate family would be a real easy

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Speaker 1: way to draw the target person out of witness protection

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Speaker 1: into the light, you know, to then be dealt with.

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Speaker 1: And so in a way, this is government supported pseudo

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Speaker 1: side thinking of one's death. And when you have the

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Speaker 1: help of Uncle Sam, it's a lot easier to do

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Speaker 1: some things than it would be if you were an

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Speaker 1: independent actor. Right now, three different US organizations manage aspects

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Speaker 1: of this program. This does not count any off the

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Speaker 1: books kind of CIA paperclip style relocations, which absolutely do

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Speaker 1: happen in the United States and abroad. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: the we're talking about the official stuff. I know, conspiracies

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Speaker 1: in conspiracies. Did you hear that unknown person just talk

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Speaker 1: to us I did in that clip. No, no, you're

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Speaker 1: not having a stroke. That was That was an accidental

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Speaker 1: rollover AD on my bus that came out on my speakers. Okay,

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Speaker 1: rollover ads uh, rollover at you know who sees a

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Speaker 1: rollover AD and says I'm gonna buy that? Sure? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank you for invading my, my, my, my ears with

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Speaker 1: that noise. It's the new version of the door to

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Speaker 1: door salesman. Yeah, right, bust in your front door into

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Speaker 1: your study or wherever you keep your computer and like, hey,

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Speaker 1: oh you're reading about witness protection. Why not buy a

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Speaker 1: Dyson vacuum cleaner, right, like stuff like that. You have

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Speaker 1: an extra four thousand dollars, right? Is that how much

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Speaker 1: they are? I don't know. They're insane and I yeah,

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Speaker 1: dison Z Yeah, well I'm not sponsored by them, but

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Speaker 1: I say go for the shark instead of the Dison.

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Speaker 1: It works sharks as well, and they're a good bit

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Speaker 1: less expensive. And also, I think it's so funny that

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Speaker 1: whenever you buy a thing like that, that's when you

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Speaker 1: start getting the flood of ads for the same thing.

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Speaker 1: You won't We've always commiserated about that on the show,

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Speaker 1: but it still happens to me. I don't know why

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Speaker 1: they haven't sused that out yet, right, this guy just

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Speaker 1: what's the example? Oh, this guy bought a toilet. He

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Speaker 1: must want six more. Maybe he'll treat himself. You know,

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Speaker 1: this guy likes to poop. You know, I could understand.

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Speaker 1: You buy a toilet, you start getting served with ads

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Speaker 1: for bidats or toilet accessories, you know, like a like

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Speaker 1: a putting green, which I saw a big lots the

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Speaker 1: other day, toilet suicide, faking your death shout out to

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Speaker 1: Playing Dead by Elizabeth Greenwood. That's probably the best book

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Speaker 1: written on the subject. Faking your death on your own disappearing.

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Speaker 1: It's increasingly difficult in the age of ubiquitous surveillance and

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Speaker 1: social media and so on, but it is still possible.

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Speaker 1: The reason most people get caught is because they either

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Speaker 1: contact people from their old life or they try to

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Speaker 1: profit in some way. So if you just ghost and

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Speaker 1: you don't touch any possible money, any insurance claims or whatever,

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Speaker 1: your chances are getting way are much higher. If you

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Speaker 1: go with a marshal service and you're in wit SEC,

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Speaker 1: then according to them, you have one hundred percent chance

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Speaker 1: of being safe, so long as you follow their rules,

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Speaker 1: which we'll get into. That's a covey. It's like that

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Speaker 1: number one cup of coffee, little Suss. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: like that exactly. It's kind of like if we were

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Speaker 1: going to make up a tricky statistic and we said,

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Speaker 1: nobody in a submarine has died in a car crash

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Speaker 1: while on the submarine, Like, of course, of course they haven't,

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Speaker 1: you know, but but yeah, everything is perfect and just

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Speaker 1: so like things definitely are all the time, then no

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Speaker 1: one will ever die in the witness protection. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about one of the wrinkles here when we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the Marshal Service and what they do for this witness

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Speaker 1: protection program. They provide the basic things we've talked about, right, security,

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Speaker 1: They watch out for your health. Right, they do all

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Speaker 1: kinds of stuff when it comes to just protecting you

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Speaker 1: if you're not already in prison. Because some of these

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Speaker 1: witnesses that come forward are incarcerated before they go and

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Speaker 1: need to take the stand, right, So what happens to them?

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Speaker 1: Do you just change their name and put them in

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Speaker 1: a different prison system somewhere they're they're they're under the

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Speaker 1: Federal Bureau of Prisons, the Bureau of Prisons are BOP.

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Speaker 1: They look after the incarcerated witnesses and the marshals. So

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Speaker 1: the Marshals and BOP, they're like the boots on the ground,

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Speaker 1: the general in this case, the one who's sending them

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Speaker 1: to the trenches. That's something called the Office of Enforcement

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Speaker 1: Operations under the Department of Justice, the OEO, because we

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Speaker 1: love an acronym. I hope they do it right. Like

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Speaker 1: all three of us just clocked that. You probably clocked

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Speaker 1: that listening at home. I think Matt, you were doing

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Speaker 1: the Wizard of Oz. I was doing Jugo love most

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Speaker 1: day of the time, which when many will remember featured

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Speaker 1: in the Jay and Silent Bob movie Oeo Eyo, and

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Speaker 1: they still all work together, which is a nice little

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Speaker 1: thematic metaphor here. So the Oeo has now the sound

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Speaker 1: keys in my head. They are the ones who make

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Speaker 1: the call as to who gets admitted and what happens

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Speaker 1: to them afterwards, and a lot of things can happen

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Speaker 1: to them. It's complicated. So their main thing is you

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Speaker 1: can get into whit sec if your life is in

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Speaker 1: danger because of the testimony that you will give in

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Speaker 1: the future, and you have to definitely be giving that

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Speaker 1: testimony against traffickers, terrorists, mafia, other major criminals, and they

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Speaker 1: will erase your old identity, they'll put you in a

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Speaker 1: city where you're not likely to be recognized. They'll give

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Speaker 1: you a new name and a new life, and they'll

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Speaker 1: do the same for your immediate family members. But not

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Speaker 1: everybody can get in. It's actually it's not as tough

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Speaker 1: as successfully pleading insanity in court, but it's it's pretty rare,

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Speaker 1: right because there's a lot of crime. A really great

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Speaker 1: film about sort of you know, where the impetus for

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Speaker 1: the action of the film is somebody being in witness protection.

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Speaker 1: Unless I'm completely mistaken. Is a David Cronenberg film called

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Speaker 1: The History of Violence, where it's about a gentleman played

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Speaker 1: by Vigo Morden said, who, like you know, runs a

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Speaker 1: diner and the small time and the folks come and

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Speaker 1: roll into town. I can't remember if he was in

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Speaker 1: whit sec or if he just sort of did it himself,

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Speaker 1: but it's still the same scenario, you know, where the

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Speaker 1: bad guys find out and then there's a rumble in

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Speaker 1: the streets and yeah, yeah, was he infiltrating the thieves

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Speaker 1: in law like the Russian correct? But I can't remember exactly. Yeah, No,

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Speaker 1: you're right, he wasn't with he definitely was in whit Sec.

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Speaker 1: You're absolutely right then, Yeah, really great movie. Different for Croninburg.

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Speaker 1: Most people know him for like body horror, gross out stuff,

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Speaker 1: but this is very much just a solid crime thriller, excellent,

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Speaker 1: excellent picture. Yeah, a lot of great stuff in there

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Speaker 1: about the Russian criminal underground. Uh and and and actually

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Speaker 1: an interesting emphasis on the cultural phenomenon of tattoos in

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Speaker 1: that organization. It's very true. Oh, man, there's there's also

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Speaker 1: Eastern promises, which which was the tattoo one. I think

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Speaker 1: so there are there's some crossover betwe because there was

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Speaker 1: all so Russian, you know stuff in A History of Violence.

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Speaker 1: Two really good movies. Guys. All right, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about something we talked about. The high number seven thousand,

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Speaker 1: five hundred people since nineteen seventy have gone into this

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Speaker 1: that is nowhere near the number of high value witnesses

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Speaker 1: that have given testimony in the United States. Is that

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Speaker 1: because of the criteria is so strict or why why

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Speaker 1: isn't that number higher? Well, it seems to me there

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Speaker 1: must be something, some metric or something that has to

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Speaker 1: be hit for that. What do we call it OEO

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Speaker 1: for them to look at an individual and say, okay,

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Speaker 1: we need to protect you. Yeah, there's a rubric. I

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Speaker 1: mean it's the government. So there's a lot of bureaucracy.

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Speaker 1: There's a paperwork here. The US Attorney General's Office has

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Speaker 1: the finals say so on who gets in, and their

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Speaker 1: requirements are pretty specific. Without getting two into the weeds

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Speaker 1: of the legal ease, any fence that involves organized crime

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Speaker 1: or racketeering makes you eligible. Drug trafficking offenses as described

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Speaker 1: in titled twenty one of the US Code, which most

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Speaker 1: people wouldn't know offhand, any other felony for which a

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Speaker 1: witness may provide testimony quote that may subject the witness

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Speaker 1: to retaliation by violence or threats of violence. And then

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Speaker 1: any state level offense that's similar to the federal stuff.

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Speaker 1: And then another one's basically a vibe check. I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're never going to say it that way, but it's like,

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Speaker 1: how do they feel about you know, well, because potentially

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Speaker 1: somebody could be or would be a part of a

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Speaker 1: criminal organization in order to have testimony to give, right,

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Speaker 1: Not not always, but I would say often, probably somebody

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Speaker 1: had a hand in whatever bad business was going down.

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Speaker 1: So I guess you have to trust that that person

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Speaker 1: isn't going to just move on to a different city

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Speaker 1: with a different name and then continue to do the

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Speaker 1: same thing right back to stamp fraud, because this process

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Speaker 1: is labor intensive and expensive. Yeah, and you don't want

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Speaker 1: that guy to go right back to sell in loose

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Speaker 1: cigarettes out in the hullaballoo, Montana, which is hopefully a

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Speaker 1: city I just made up. That's an exit that I've

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Speaker 1: always considered. Yeah, Yeah, it's weird that that signs in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: It's just like hullaballoo Montana. This many hundreds of miles.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we'll take that exit one day, but for now

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Speaker 1: we want you know. Those are the basics. They seem

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Speaker 1: pretty clear cut. But how does joining up with whit

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Speaker 1: sec actually work? How does Uncle Sam set you up

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Speaker 1: with a brand new life. We're going to take the

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Speaker 1: exit for a brief stop with our sponsors, and then

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Speaker 1: we'll be right back on the road. All right, whatever,

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Speaker 1: here's where it gets still. I love that you're referencing

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Speaker 1: Eastern promises in History of Violence. They're two amazing films,

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Speaker 1: and I know that we all love crime films. We

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Speaker 1: all love that in our fiction. But this is not

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Speaker 1: like in the movies. Well, I mean, because they're getting

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Speaker 1: something from you, So they have to ensure the quality

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Speaker 1: of your testimony and and check and double check and

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Speaker 1: make sure that you know that it's gonna hold water

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Speaker 1: or sand or whatever material is appropriate for this analogy

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Speaker 1: before they'll give you that level of attention. Because like

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Speaker 1: we like, we're gonna see it's a big deal. It's

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Speaker 1: a no turning back kind of situation. So they gotta

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Speaker 1: a make sure that you're serious and that you have

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Speaker 1: serious information to share that we'll hold up in court.

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Speaker 1: And then they start going forward with the rest of

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Speaker 1: the process, which isn't isn't entirely unlike what we see

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Speaker 1: in the movie, but it's also a little more minutia

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Speaker 1: based and boring. You know, the actual process every person,

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Speaker 1: like every person that goes through. Imagine the expenses associated

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Speaker 1: with that one person to be processed. Now, imagine that

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Speaker 1: person has a family, a spouse and two kids, like

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Speaker 1: the line items on that budget. That's gonna it's gonna

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Speaker 1: cost to you know, protect this person in their family.

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Speaker 1: You got you gotta be sure this is a person

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Speaker 1: we need to protect. That's gonna get expensive real fast.

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Speaker 1: Because when you think about like for example, in like

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Speaker 1: a show like Better called Saul, where you have criminals

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Speaker 1: that are doing this through an underground version of this,

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Speaker 1: like a service that someone provides that's obviously fraud and

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Speaker 1: like totally illegal, you know, but this has all the

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Speaker 1: same hallmarks, but it's recognized by the government. So in

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Speaker 1: order to cover their butts legally, gotta be a ton

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Speaker 1: of paperwork to make sure that they don't get their

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Speaker 1: cover blown. But also that they are recognized, you know,

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Speaker 1: and then that essentially you are tricking other agencies because

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Speaker 1: you would want someone applying for a driver's license and

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden a regg flag gets thrown

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Speaker 1: up and their covers blown. So it's something that has

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Speaker 1: to be done on a systematic level. Yeah, and there

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Speaker 1: are weak links in the chain of secrecy. There almost

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Speaker 1: always are. The thing is, first, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: apply and don't pass MUSTER. They don't make the cut

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Speaker 1: because either there again, as we know, intelligence is perishable, right,

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Speaker 1: so it might not matter there might be another alternative

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Speaker 1: to having someone in the wit SEC program. But also

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Speaker 1: they have to evaluate the credible the credibility of the

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Speaker 1: threats against you. And because a lot of these people

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Speaker 1: are have a criminal background, Uncle Sam will also ask

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Speaker 1: themselves what risk you may pose to a new community

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Speaker 1: if you get relocated. This is where you see comedic

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Speaker 1: versions of the witness protection trope, right, And that last

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Speaker 1: part might sound odd, but again it's not uncommon for

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Speaker 1: folks and witness protection or witness security to have a

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Speaker 1: criminal past. So if you're the authorities, you're the OEO,

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Speaker 1: and you know someone has a likelihood of changing their

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Speaker 1: name but still committing crimes that really complicates things. You

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Speaker 1: don't want Max Powers, astronaut with a secret suddenly get

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Speaker 1: busted yet again for stealing dirigibles, you know what I mean?

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Speaker 1: Like people, that's a very specific crime. They will look

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Speaker 1: at you know, they'll look at the track record there. Well,

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Speaker 1: I would imagine too, like you know, they they would

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Speaker 1: probably treat civilians differently than say, serious members of crime

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Speaker 1: organizations who are essentially being bargained with or this is

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Speaker 1: a bargaining chip, you know, like they are maybe perhaps

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Speaker 1: they are negotiating down their sentence or whatever it might be. Like,

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Speaker 1: is it worth it to us to protect you when

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Speaker 1: you're the one that's put yourself in harm's way in

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Speaker 1: the first place? And if and with those cases, it

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Speaker 1: would be more about protecting their and tell and their

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Speaker 1: testimony maybe a little more so than protecting that person's hide.

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Speaker 1: Oh and what if the person you're you're going to

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Speaker 1: give testimony against is already an FBI informant? Huh? The

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Speaker 1: high level person that happens sometimes wheels within wheels, like

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Speaker 1: in at What's the movie the scorsesean movie with Jack

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Speaker 1: Nicholson Departed, The Departed and the slight spoiler for a

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Speaker 1: fifteen year old movie. It does turn out that the

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Speaker 1: main bad guy in that has been dodging all of

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Speaker 1: this stuff for so long because he is a high

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Speaker 1: level FBI informant. And the dildo scene was completely improvised.

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Speaker 1: The one in the movie there did a coffee spip.

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Speaker 1: It's true, obvious, improvised. That's why. That's why Matt Damon's

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Speaker 1: character looks so surprised, or one of those characters looks

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Speaker 1: so surprised. That's a true story. All right, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: matter for this. It doesn't matter for this matter. Point.

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Speaker 1: The point is the after assuming you pass muster right,

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Speaker 1: you have valuable information. You also are not going to

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Speaker 1: be huge risk if you get started over with a

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Speaker 1: new life and you're you know, they call you nil

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Speaker 1: wobnet or something. It's been bulling backwards then, got it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But the if they if you pass those two things,

402
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Speaker 1: then they give you an interview. The Marshal Service will

403
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Speaker 1: interview you and prosecutors and whatever law enforcement agency has

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00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 1: come to them to request your protection, and then you

405
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Speaker 1: have to give them the application, their threat assessment, and

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Speaker 1: then after that interview they recommend whether or not you

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Speaker 1: should be in what sec they tell the OEO, hey,

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Speaker 1: green light, yellow light whatever. And at that point, at

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Speaker 1: any point actually along the way, OEO can pull the

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Speaker 1: plug on the whole operation. They can just change their mind.

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Speaker 1: So you have to play nice and for maybe the

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Speaker 1: second to last time in your life, for the penultimate

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Speaker 1: time in your life, you have to be completely honest.

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Speaker 1: Do not try to hide stuff, no matter how small

415
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Speaker 1: you think it is. And the last time that you

416
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Speaker 1: will have to be honest for the rest of your

417
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: life is in court, is when you give that testimony.

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Speaker 1: And if they do the cost benefit analysis, they're really

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Speaker 1: asking how does the value of what you have to

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Speaker 1: bring to the table, How does that stack up to

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Speaker 1: the potential danger you might bring to the community, not

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Speaker 1: by your actions necessarily, but simply by your presence. What

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Speaker 1: if you get found out? You know, like that scene

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Speaker 1: in all those horrible horror movies where someone says, hang on,

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Speaker 1: doctor Alucard, alu Card, it's Dracula backwards. You know what

426
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: I mean, doctor, Yeah, exactly exactly. He sucks. I know this.

427
00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: It's it's a wild week for us, folks. We got

428
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 1: a lot going on. But okay, there's a hassle for everyone, right,

429
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 1: And this only starts the process, because, like we're saying,

430
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 1: the idea is to grant total anonymity. They want you

431
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: to blend in. They want to put you in a

432
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: place where you won't stick out and you won't be recognized.

433
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 1: And at first that doesn't sound very difficult unless you're

434
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 1: a high profile public figure. There are thousands of cities

435
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: where people move to and from every day. What's one more?

436
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: You know, That's how it sounds. But they're not playing around,

437
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: like as soon as you are signed up, you're whisked away,

438
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: just like just like breaking Bad or better call Saul

439
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: Spoilers when the vacuum cleaner guy shows up with the van,

440
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: right and you just have to hop in. That's the

441
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: point of no return right there. Yeah. Yeah, they take

442
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 1: you to a safe house or to some safe holding location.

443
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: They're necessarily vague about that and everything they say publicly,

444
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,639
Speaker 1: and then they try to coordinate multiple government agencies in

445
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: absolute secrecy to set up your new life. And they

446
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: have a huge double standard here. It's a necessary one,

447
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: but I just want to point it's it's a huge

448
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: double standard. They want the public to forget all about you.

449
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: As close as possible. They want you to have never existed,

450
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: but they want to remember any and everything you've done.

451
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: They actually pay way more attention to you than the

452
00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: average member of John Q Public. Oh yeah, So wherever

453
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,120
Speaker 1: you're going, whether it's the temporary safe house or your

454
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: brand new location, you can guarantee the folks that are

455
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: helping you out along this process are going to give

456
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,719
Speaker 1: a nice little tip of the hat and heads up

457
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: to the local law enforcement agencies that you're going to

458
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: be working with in the future. You won't be working

459
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: with them, but you know, and it's not like they're

460
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: going to leak all the information that they're trying to

461
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: keep secret, right, They're just going to say, hey, heads up,

462
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: here's a new guy in town. He's kind of known

463
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: for this thing, so just keep an eye out his

464
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: new name. Don't say anything about the old name, but

465
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: just you know, check him out and keep this guy

466
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: away from the town blimp, especially the case. Yeah, he's

467
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: he's got a he's got an airship thing. So is

468
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: that like the town bicycle? Is that is that like

469
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: a you know, not an euphemism, like a good like

470
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: going back to the joke about stealing original it was

471
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: a fat joke. We don't do but that is Oh,

472
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: that's tremendously hurtful. That feels like a middle schooler made

473
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: it up. They're the best with insults. I always thought

474
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: Blimpies was kind of a gross name for a sub

475
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: sandwich chain, too. Blimpy. Yeah, it feels like some kind

476
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: of like children's show mascot to me. Yeah, yeah, there

477
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: we go. So so yeah, true story, BLIMPI was involved

478
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 1: with al Qaeda? Stop, no, no, no, they weren't. Blimpy's best.

479
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: It's not involved in alkay right, where blimpis really come from?

480
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: Do you guys know what the sandwich store's name was before? All? Right, whatever,

481
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: we're not we're not saying Blimpie is a member of

482
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: what is called Yeah, that's it. So the marshals do

483
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: give local law a heads up, and the marshals can

484
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: also impose pretty much any caveats they want on a

485
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: participant in witness protection. That means random drug and alcohol testing.

486
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: They can also keep an eye on your finances. And

487
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: there's one thing a lot of folks might not think

488
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: about until the rubber hits the road. The marshals are

489
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: not going to pay off any of your pre existing

490
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 1: debt doesn't matter if you like, if you're in deep

491
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: with Maddie both hands at at you know, for some

492
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: horse races, or you got a car and recommended no, no,

493
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: don't play dangerous. Yeah yeah, even with just the one hand.

494
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: We can never tell you how he got his name day.

495
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: But uh, you know they're not going to pay off

496
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: your student loans before you enter the program. You have

497
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: to pay off any existing debts if you have to

498
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: have it, though I don't understand, and like, if you're disappearing,

499
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: then technically you would be disappearing for all intents and

500
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: purposes for those debts. So if they want you bad enough,

501
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: surely you've got some bargaining power there, right, One would

502
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: one would think they bend the rules because some of

503
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 1: this stuff does fall into a gray area or wait

504
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: for it, liminal space. But how do you come up

505
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 1: with sixty grand for your student loan if you have

506
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: to go into witness protection all of a sudden, right,

507
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense? I mean, I mean, I mean,

508
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I know this is all like the

509
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: sort of like boilerplate stuff here, but there have to

510
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: be situations where the exceptions are made. I assume so.

511
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: But it's also very difficult for members of the public

512
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: to get the inside scoop on that sort of stuff,

513
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,240
Speaker 1: especially because it can be good, reasily sensitive. Yeah, and

514
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: and it can transparency can result in the failure of

515
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: the program, by which we mean the people will get murdered.

516
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: But you also have to provide child custody documents. You

517
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: have to prove those kids are yours if they go

518
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: with you into wit SEC. You can't just say like, okay,

519
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: I will join the program as long as I can

520
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 1: take my roomy. You know, what's a weird, what's a sleazy? Oh?

521
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: Snake bite? As long as I can take my boy

522
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 1: snake bite with me. He's just solid And they're like, well,

523
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: is he your family member? He's my brother dog in

524
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: every way that counts. If snake bite doesn't go, I

525
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: don't go right a package deal the government and they

526
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 1: also won't pay for plastic surgery. They used to now

527
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: they have in the past a couple times, but they

528
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: now they will totally help you find a surgeon who

529
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: can keep their mouth shut, but they're not going to

530
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: put tax dollars toward it, so you have to pay

531
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: for it. But they will. They will recommend someone for you.

532
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: And so there's a lot of stuff they won't do,

533
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: but there is stuff they will do. They will help

534
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: you try to. They will find at least one reasonable

535
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: job opportunity. If that doesn't work out, that's okay, but

536
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: you have to keep looking for a job on your own.

537
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: They want you to be as self sufficient as possible

538
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 1: as soon as possible. They'll help you find a house,

539
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: a place to live, maybe an apartment. I imagine, Ben,

540
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: you'd have a handler of some kind that's sort of

541
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: checking in on you, maybe physically, but yeah, in some way,

542
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: shape or form. Definitely, definitely in the lead up to

543
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: going to court. Definitely, until you get settled in. It

544
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: actually calms down a bit if you are able to

545
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: tow the line and you know, not go back into

546
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 1: the life or crime. They'll also give you some subsistence payments.

547
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: This is pretty controversial. This is something on average of

548
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 1: like sixty thousand dollars a year, which is a pretty

549
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: decent salary, you know. Yeah, plus a job. Come on,

550
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: let's do this, let's get it. Witness protection program guys,

551
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:15,720
Speaker 1: that sounds great. So they also give you a course

552
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: all the new identity paperwork you need. We're talking social

553
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: security numbers, birth certificate, driver's license, phishing license, tote and

554
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: chit for a new boy scouts, I guess and h

555
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 1: this is interesting. I didn't know this. They also arrange

556
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 1: for counseling. Should you so choose psychiatrists social workers? I

557
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: think that's really cool actually, especially for the kids. Right, yeah,

558
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: oh yeah, your new name is Timmy now right? Like

559
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,960
Speaker 1: what why? And speaking of weak links, I mean no

560
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 1: shape or anything, but I mean at school, you make

561
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: a buddy and it's like I got a secret. I mean,

562
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: one last thing as long as we're talking about the

563
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: cool stuff, and you are raising a great point about

564
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: the weak links here. We were texting our group chat

565
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: before we recorded, like going into some of this episode

566
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 1: and the big question, who gets to choose your new name? Yeah?

567
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: Wouldn't there be maybe a pool of available identities that

568
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: are already kind of pre pre done or am I

569
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: am I moviefying this again? Just wondering, Uh, yeah, I

570
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: moviefied it a little bit of myself and some old

571
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: sketch comedy. But the cool thing is in real life,

572
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: witnesses can choose their own names. Now they do get

573
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: some pointers. The guy created the program, Gerald Sure, He

574
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: also wrote a book all about witness protection and he

575
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: talks about this. I'd like to be Neil's Barnes. If

576
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: that's agreeable. That's pretty great. Yeah, let's talk about that

577
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 1: book that Sure wrote is titled wit sec w I

578
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: t SEC Colin Inside the Federal Witness Protection Program. And

579
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: this dude just he's gout. He lays it out for you.

580
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: Here's some things you should do when considering changing your name. Yeah,

581
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:16,120
Speaker 1: keep your current initials or same first name if possible. So,

582
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick, I had a pitch, how about what do

583
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 1: you think about Mike Ferikon. It's so on the nose,

584
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: it feels real right, like you wouldn't purposely choose that.

585
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: It's pretty good. I wanted to go with Michael goldenschlager

586
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: but I guess that's fine. No, that's great too, that's

587
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: great too, Michael goldenschlager Stein. Yeah, okay, Michael Goldenschlagerberg. Sure,

588
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 1: can I still be Niels Barnes totally? Unless you want

589
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: to go with Nate Bobbin's. That's wow. Goodness to consider.

590
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: These are terrible, These are terrible, examples, probably due to

591
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: sleep deprivation. Ben, you mentioned improv. I mean that also

592
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: is if you notice shows like Curb Your Enthusiasm, most

593
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 1: of the characters have their real first names because it

594
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 1: just makes it easier for the improv I guess you

595
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: know what I mean. That's a good point too. And

596
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: also it's very easy to slip up if if you

597
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: have a name that is like think about it. For

598
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: the majority of these people, they have instinctual, primal response

599
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 1: now to hearing their name. It has been ingrained in

600
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: them for decades. So things can get Things can go

601
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: sideways really quick. If you're a mat or a Knoll

602
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, now you're tobias, you you

603
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: will have tells. People will be able to see you process.

604
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,240
Speaker 1: Oh that's my fake name, right, yeah. Well, and plus

605
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: you can't ever take off your gene shorts ever again. No,

606
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 1: you're an ever nude. That's another one of their copiats

607
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,240
Speaker 1: your joy, it's I mean, I have a friend who's

608
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: who's a musician, who often likes me to refer to

609
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: them by their stage name, and I screw that up

610
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: all the time because I know you're talking about you here.

611
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: I refuse every time on purpose. I hope you know that. Yeah,

612
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 1: you say I have. I struggle with it myself. You all,

613
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 1: you all probably know this personal better than I do.

614
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: But yes, confirming the story protecting the names, these name

615
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: changes do go through the court system, just like any

616
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 1: other name change. The records are sealed, which hopefully is helpful.

617
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: But that's I would argue, that's another weak link. Local

618
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: law enforcement can be corrupted. This is not a ding

619
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: on anybody, but it happens. Was it in Dragnet the

620
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: TV show? Or they say the names have been changed

621
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: to protect the innocence? I always love I always love

622
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: that line. It's very intense, but similar similar Do I

623
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 1: love that in anything? You know what I mean? I

624
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: would love that in a Blimpie's commercial. You know we

625
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: are We're bad. I gotta find out though, blimp Yeah, yeah, no,

626
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: look at we gotta get some people on the case there.

627
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: I think it's just blimpy, by the way, I don't

628
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,799
Speaker 1: think it was there's it's not plural or possessive. It's

629
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:23,919
Speaker 1: just blimpy. Yeah, blimpy restaurants, substances. It's still around. Looks

630
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: like they've rebranded a little bit. Yeah, it's America's subshop.

631
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 1: See it once again, suspect, Who are you to say

632
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: that you are America's subshop? And then there's blimp E,

633
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: which is totally different, right, oh right, so I know what, right,

634
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: you're the You've got a book coming out on the difference,

635
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 1: I believe, right. So, so, yeah, we see the week leaks,

636
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: but we also see a tremendous opportunity right to bring

637
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: justice to very dangerous people in the organizations. And now

638
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: to the brass tacks. Do they let you choose the neighborhood?

639
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: Do I get to do I get to choose? Because

640
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 1: for me and my family, I want a nice place, right,

641
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: I want I want to kind of posh place. It'd

642
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: be cool if there was a good view. That seems

643
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 1: like a premium service right there, though, you know you

644
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: got to pay extra for that, going to Brooklyn to

645
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: hang out with what's his name? We just talked about

646
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: old Charlie. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, mcgodigall. Yeah. Uh, Now

647
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: that sounds like a fake name, but anyway, it's literally

648
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: a character in the Harry Potter movies, right, uh and

649
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: uh and an FBI agent. You got turned but you're

650
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: not You're probably not going to go to a super

651
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: nice neighborhood because super nice neighborhoods tend to be insular,

652
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: and rich people also tend in general to stick out

653
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 1: in this country, especially nowadays. The point is to blend in.

654
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: You're going to have a life that would not be enviable,

655
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: and the service will give you twenty four hour protection

656
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 1: when you're in a high threat area all the basically

657
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: all the time leading up to court appearances, and if

658
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: it goes well, you make it to court, then you're

659
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: still in the program. But getting to court is the

660
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: most tricky part of the whole thing. Guys, do you

661
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: think there is a position within this witness security protection

662
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: matrix that goes in undercover and like checks up or

663
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 1: tests the people who are currently under protection. Like you

664
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: just go to a bar, you follow somebody who's in protection.

665
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: You watch that they go to a neighborhood bar every

666
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 1: Wednesday evening or something. You go sit at the bar

667
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: once or twice every couple of whatever, and just like

668
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: sit down and start up a little chat and see

669
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: what you can get out of them. On purpose, we

670
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: can create Can I do it? And then you also

671
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: pay me sixty thousand dollars plus whatever that salary is.

672
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: Please witness security theory. I want to do. That would

673
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: sound so much fun. Yeah, I think you'd have to

674
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: be careful of entrapment too. No, it's just a it's

675
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: just a little test. It's just like a hey, and

676
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: at the end of the conversation you just go, Mike,

677
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: you's call them by their real name, just quietly at

678
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: the bar. Well, like, what if you just call it

679
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 1: by your fake by the fake name, and then try

680
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 1: to get into casual stranger level conversation about their life

681
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: and their background. Yeah, you still considered doc saying if

682
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 1: you blow someone's witness protection cover or is there there

683
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: must be a whole other name, it's worse. Yeah, is

684
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: it worse? It's super Yeah. No, it's like it's the

685
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: equivalent of stomping on a kid's macaroni picture. The marshals

686
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: are not going to take well to it. And like,

687
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: can you imagine someone applying for witness protection because they've

688
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: they've been implicated in blow it up past witness protection cases.

689
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 1: That's that's a tall milkshake. Bad look bad look. Yeah,

690
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 1: they don't love it. But okay, so this guy, sure

691
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: he describes all the weird stuff they do to get

692
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: witnesses to court safely. They smuggle people in mail trucks,

693
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: they fly them in in helicopters. They even snuck some

694
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: dudes on to court via fishing boats. In one instance

695
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: he relates in his book, and armored car was sent

696
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 1: with a full police escort as a decoy to get

697
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: this this mob guy who had turned Joseph Barboza into court.

698
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 1: And so while they had this huge spectacle, this production

699
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 1: of armored cars and police escorts, there's nobody really in

700
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: the armored car. They snuck Joseph Barboza in through a

701
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: side door at the courthouse. They just sushered him in.

702
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: And even if you are no longer in the program,

703
00:43:57,719 --> 00:43:59,879
Speaker 1: you can still be given protection if you're a test

704
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 1: find for you know, in the case for which you

705
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: entered the program. And at that point you might be saying, wait,

706
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: people get out of witness protection. We'll get to that

707
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: in a second, but maybe first we take a break

708
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: and come back with some good news. Does this program work?

709
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: And we're back, And when we left, we asked the

710
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: question does the witness Security program work? Well? According to

711
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: the folks who make it, happen, Yes, sir, at least

712
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 1: it's pretty They are pretty good numbers. Yeah, So, according

713
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 1: to the Marshall's Service, since nineteen seventy, the program has

714
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 1: achieved an overall conviction rate of eighty nine sounds pretty

715
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: pretty solid as a result of protected witness testimony, and

716
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: more than ten thousand criminals have been put away as

717
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,879
Speaker 1: a result been received convictions. And you have to think

718
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 1: the reason why that works is because there is a

719
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: witness protection program. Though that eighty nine percent conviction rate

720
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,320
Speaker 1: and that number of criminals wouldn't be going to jail

721
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: because people would be terrified to give testimony against an

722
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: organization internally unless there was a program like this. There's

723
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: still terrified even though the program exists, but it's at

724
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: least there. And I think at this point too, we

725
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: have to mention We've talked about it before, and I

726
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: know it can be controversial for some folks, but it's

727
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: just the reality. The US justice system has huge problems,

728
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 1: massive inequality, a lot of dirty things happening that are

729
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: against the letter and spirit of the law. Everyone agrees

730
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: it's far from perfect. That is a known that is given.

731
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: The wealthy in this country have an entirely different set

732
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: of laws most times, right, But we have to keep

733
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: in mind the folks who are being targeted and the

734
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: folks who are the ultimate end goal of witness protection programs.

735
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 1: These are bad dudes. They're pretty dangerous, and we don't

736
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: say that lightly. And they also typically are going to

737
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: have a surprising amount of reach, a high level of sophistication.

738
00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: If they have info on a witness, it will not

739
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: hesitate to act on it, often through their own through

740
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: their own proxies. We're talking about something close to a

741
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: shadow organization that tries to match what the Marshal Service does.

742
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 1: There's a there's an underground game of cat and mouse

743
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,719
Speaker 1: that can play out, and the American public does not

744
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: know about it. So that sounds a little dark. Let's see,

745
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: let's let's let's stay on that though. Let's see, it's

746
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: kind of let's stay kind of dark. Why would you

747
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 1: find witness security controversial? Let's say we're voters and we

748
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: have a bone to pick with witness protection as a concept.

749
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: Why wouldn't we like it? Well, I mean, your potential

750
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,959
Speaker 1: hooking a criminal up right, If this is somebody who's

751
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: inside the organization, as we keep mentioning and they're just

752
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 1: you know, turning on the people who are also in

753
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: the organization. Uh, they're probably not a great person who

754
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: maybe did some horrible things, and you're going to give

755
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,319
Speaker 1: them sixty grand a year and protect them and also

756
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: get them a job. I don't be thinking, Yeah, you

757
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: might be thinking like, hey, I've lived in this town

758
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: forever and most of us make under forty thousand dollars

759
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:34,360
Speaker 1: and are not criminals. So why are why are we

760
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: paying for this guy who definitely killed some folks to

761
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 1: get to get a cushy job, a nice house, and

762
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:47,479
Speaker 1: sixty grand a year. The taxes, I always forget about

763
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: the taxes. Oh right, crap, it's got up, yep. But

764
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: it's just no, just the concept that we're all dishing

765
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: out for the other folks. Well, that's fine. This is

766
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: a look this program is. It's a drop in the

767
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,799
Speaker 1: bucket compared to a lot of other major programs that

768
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,879
Speaker 1: we're also paid. Sure. Yeah, how much your income goes

769
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: to pay for sidewinder missiles things like that? Yeah, because

770
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: you don't get it. You don't get a little form

771
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: and your taxes that check off where you want the

772
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: money to go, and we don't even get to play

773
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 1: with the missiles. Seem fair. No, they get mad at

774
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: you just for going to the fence. It's weird. Very

775
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 1: if we make some weird looking balloons, we shoot them

776
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 1: up really high, maybe we could get to play with

777
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: a missile at least in a secondhand way. Yes, yeah,

778
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: I support this idea. Yes I love I'm adding that

779
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: to my list of billionaire pranks. That's great. So the

780
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,480
Speaker 1: Marshall Service Uncle Sam in general, they're aware of this

781
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,879
Speaker 1: controversy and they get it, you know what I mean.

782
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 1: And a lot of individuals who make witness security work

783
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: have probably had their own ethical quandaries, right, like they

784
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 1: have probably had some dark knights of the soul about

785
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 1: the concept of greater good. Right are we letting an

786
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: evil person go in order to combat a greater evil?

787
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: And that's a tough question to answer. And that's not

788
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: a ding on the people who are involved with these programs.

789
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,680
Speaker 1: That's just saying we understand the conundrums and dilemmas that

790
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: could arise. Because the marshals are sensitive. They want you

791
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 1: self sufficient asap, like you need to be at least

792
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:30,959
Speaker 1: aggressively seeking a job, or they're cutting you off. And

793
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: when they cut you off, when they turn off the

794
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: faucet for that subsistence that sixty thousand dollars a year,

795
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 1: they'll tell you, hey, why don't you just a role

796
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:45,040
Speaker 1: in public assistance? Wow? Yeah, So they don't want to play.

797
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: And the most important rule is you gotta uphold the conspiracy.

798
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: This is where everybody goes wrong when they try to ghost.

799
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: You cannot contact your former associates, your family members. In

800
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: the age of social media. That means no more dopamine

801
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: rushes from from your your look at me casino of choice. Right,

802
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:11,040
Speaker 1: no Instagram, no Twitter, no TikTok, no Facebook, no more comments. Sorry,

803
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: but no more phone calls either, Matt to your old

804
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:20,439
Speaker 1: friends at all, No WhatsApp, no telegram. Wow, I like that, Matt. Matt,

805
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: You're like Robert de Niro and heat. Yeah, I'm gonna

806
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: go to the I'm gonna go to the pond and

807
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,399
Speaker 1: just be uh. And of course you can't go back

808
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 1: to your old town or any place you hung out.

809
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: They're just gonna have to wonder what happened to you.

810
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 1: And we talked about this, the success rate. The Marshall

811
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: Service phrases this and really kind of I don't know.

812
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: I think it's a sinister, nuanced way to phrase the

813
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:51,800
Speaker 1: success of their program. Yeah, they say, quote, no witness

814
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: who has followed these rules has ever been killed. If

815
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: you follow it, you're gonna be okay. Otherwise, what are

816
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: we gonna do? Sort of like avoiding your warranty, you know,

817
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: on a piece of equipment if you like, if if

818
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: you try to fix it yourself, and you did, you

819
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 1: do the thing where you open it up and mess around,

820
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: We can't help you. We no longer cover you, and

821
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 1: we do not claim you. No one in a submarine

822
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: has died in a car accident while in the submarine,

823
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: you know what, Like, it's just a tricky way to

824
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: frame it. No one dies at Disney World, the situation,

825
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, good luck, Mike louden Schlager or whatever I

826
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: said before Golden schlager stein, thank you something else. There

827
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 1: was another one at the end. What was it, Golden

828
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: Schluger stein Bergen, Golden schlager stein Bergen. Yes, and your

829
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: children will hate you when they learned that they didn't

830
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 1: have to write the entirety of that name in school,

831
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:55,520
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I always felt bad for

832
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: the kids with really long names. Well, it's speaking of

833
00:51:57,960 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 1: your children hating you. I'm sorry this is a little

834
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,360
Speaker 1: out of order here, are going back to mething we

835
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:06,319
Speaker 1: said earlier. Kids freak out and go through crazy you know,

836
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 1: phases for nothing and not to mention if you like,

837
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 1: uproot them from their school and moved to another town,

838
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: let alone change their name, and and they never get

839
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: to see their friends or family ever again. Can you imagine? Yeah,

840
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: I can imagine being a huge problem and very difficult,

841
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 1: very difficult rubicon to cross. So we'd have to talk

842
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: with professionals to see how they navigate that, especially when

843
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: children are on social media, expected to be on social

844
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,839
Speaker 1: media at an increasingly early age. So once you're settled in,

845
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,320
Speaker 1: let's say, yea, all of this goes well, you're following

846
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 1: the rules, your kids, your loved ones that are with you.

847
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 1: You're fine. You have a new job you work at

848
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: you know, the home depot or the Lows or you,

849
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, you have an office job something like that,

850
00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 1: and you are now living some version of the American dream.

851
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 1: The good news is, after after all the hullabaloo passes,

852
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 1: you only have to check in with the government once

853
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: a year. Uh. After after the hullabaloo Montana moment passes, you,

854
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: you do have to check in with him if you

855
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 1: have a big life change, if you want to move,

856
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: if you commit any kind of crime, they are going

857
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: to know about it before maybe before you do. And

858
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: any government agency that wants to contact you about anything

859
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:37,839
Speaker 1: having to do with your old life from the very

860
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: top to the very bottom, they have to go through

861
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice, through the OEO or the marshals.

862
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: And that can irritate some people. Some people want to

863
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,960
Speaker 1: go out, which is why one in five of them

864
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: commit crimes again and get in trouble. You mean go

865
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,200
Speaker 1: out like out on the town, or you mean like

866
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: just escape that life both okay, Yeah, escape the boordomand

867
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: or just fall back on some things that you know

868
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 1: how to do, and you know you can make a

869
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: little more money doing that. Maybe potentially I want to

870
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,680
Speaker 1: feel alive again. Let's do an old fashioned grift. Yeah,

871
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: but seventeen percent is not bad, right, especially if you

872
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 1: think about people who are incarcerated and then the recidivism

873
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: rate after getting out of prison. Yeah, only and that's

874
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: that's about forty recidivism rate only about sixty percent of

875
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 1: paroled criminals managed to stay out of trouble. And again

876
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: I want to go back to some of the systemic

877
00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:45,719
Speaker 1: problems there. Do powerful forces conspire to keep the prisons

878
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 1: of this country or revolving door, Yes, one hundred percent.

879
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: It's it can be very difficult to get out of

880
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: that cycle. That's why a common saying in the US

881
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,439
Speaker 1: prison system is it's easy to get in, it's hard

882
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: to get out. But like we alluded, like you're mentioning

883
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: Noel Matt, you can also just quit witness protection if

884
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,760
Speaker 1: you want, you can just go. And if you leave,

885
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: the marshals will still keep tabs on you for the

886
00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: rest of your life because they need to be able

887
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 1: to locate you at any time for any reason. And

888
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: again they say, if you follow the rules, they have

889
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 1: one hundred percent success rate. But other countries have witness

890
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: protection too, lots of countries and their independent organizations. Unfortunately,

891
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 1: not everyone is as successful as the US, and in

892
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:40,120
Speaker 1: some cases, I'm thinking of Italy in particular, their operations

893
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: have been compromised, so your mileage may vary. But knowing

894
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: all this, the question is this for us, this for

895
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,919
Speaker 1: you listening with us, would you join Witness Security. Would

896
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: you join Witness Protection? Yes, I think we came up

897
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: with a good name, so you adjoined it. Yeah, I

898
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 1: would change my name though, I want to be Crystal Pemberton.

899
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:10,280
Speaker 1: Who okay, okay, CP, all right, I like it doesn't

900
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 1: really call it the initials rule though I don't care.

901
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: My name is Crystal. That's so Crystal of you bro

902
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: still with a K or with a C? Oh probably

903
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:25,600
Speaker 1: a C? Okay, fair enough, classic Crystal cry sda definitely

904
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: definitely Okay. You're not gonna style on the name. Nope,

905
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 1: Pemberton just says you imagine, Uh are you are people

906
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: gonna call you Chris? Yes, okay, Oh that's interesting. Okay,

907
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:43,799
Speaker 1: that that adds it. I'm gonna build this whole my

908
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,719
Speaker 1: D and D stuff. It's gonna be awesome, fantastic. What

909
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,919
Speaker 1: about you know, would you join Witness Protection? Well? Yeah,

910
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: as as opposed to the alternative of being tortured and murdered, Yeah,

911
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 1: it's a freaking lootly. I mean, it seems like it's

912
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: a rock and a hard place kind of joy. Nobody

913
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 1: wants to join Witness Protection program, but if you know,

914
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 1: given the alternative, I think it's probably a pretty pretty good.

915
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 1: Good bet rolling the dice there rather than just fending

916
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: for yourself. And I stand by uh Neil's barnes. I

917
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 1: think it's good. Please, yeah, I think it's good. Thank God.

918
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: How about you been no comment? So yeah, the Marshals

919
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 1: Service said, start a new life by doing a podcast

920
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: about conspiracies. Well you kind of just fell into it,

921
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 1: ben hold on, hold on, Oh no, boy, we got

922
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: I like that you're saying it's a bet though, because

923
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,800
Speaker 1: that's the question you're betting against yourself. Could you participate

924
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: in an ongoing conspiracy every day, every hour, every minute

925
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life? What do you think? Folks? Uh?

926
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: Let us know again, As as Matt said so beautifully

927
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 1: at the top here, if you are actively a witness protection,

928
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 1: don't write to us, no, we got your back, call us,

929
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:15,360
Speaker 1: don't email us, because we we also want you to

930
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: be safe and anything we can do to help in

931
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 1: that regard probably falls under the category of not being

932
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 1: in contact. Correct that sounds cold, But but if you're not.

933
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: But if you're not a witness protection, we'd love to

934
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,960
Speaker 1: hear what your thoughts. So I find us on the internet,

935
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: so somewhere, Yeah, you can if you have the Internet,

936
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: if they even lay What about the Internet? We didn't

937
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 1: really talk about that, right, Like do they filter your Internet?

938
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 1: Do they somehow limit your ability to do normal outreach

939
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,960
Speaker 1: Internet type stuff? Do they closely monitor your social What

940
00:58:54,040 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: about social media? Do people in Witness protection have social media?

941
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: Not really? We also also we didn't mention maybe we'll

942
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: get to this in the future, but we didn't have

943
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: time to mention a side effect of increasing Witness security

944
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: folks who are associated with terrorist groups and are often

945
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 1: in the country illegally. That's another thing that's really controversial

946
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: to some people because now is that functioning as a

947
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: backdoor to something like citizenship. A lot of people find

948
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 1: that a lot of people object strongly to that. But

949
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 1: let us know your thoughts. On social media, you know

950
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: that's right. You can find us a conspiracy stuff on Twitter, YouTube,

951
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: and Facebook where we have our Facebook group. Here's where

952
00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: it gets crazy. On Instagram and TikTok we are conspiracy

953
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,200
Speaker 1: stuff show. But wait, there's more. If you have a

954
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 1: phone and you would like to use it to use

955
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 1: your mouth to talk to us, call one eight three

956
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 1: three stdwy t K and leave a message. You've got

957
00:59:54,680 --> 00:59:57,240
Speaker 1: three minutes. Give yourself a cool nickname. We don't care

958
00:59:57,240 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: what it is as long as it's not your government

959
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 1: name or your wit SEC name. Again, don't call us.

960
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: If you're in the program, let us know if we

961
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: can use your name and voice on the air. If

962
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 1: you would like to not use your mouth and voice,

963
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,200
Speaker 1: why not instead use your hands and phone or computer

964
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:36,760
Speaker 1: to email us. We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

965
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

966
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

967
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.