1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:17,800 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Welcome back to voter Nomics, 2 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: where politics and markets collide. This year, voters around the 3 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: world have the ability to affect markets, countries, and economies 4 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: like never before, so we've created this series to help 5 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: you make sense of it all. I'm Alegri Stratton. 6 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 2: And I'm Stephanie Flanders, So Steph. 7 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: This week are tackling an issue that I think we 8 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: all think goes to the heart of what voteronomics is 9 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: all about, which is basically boardrooms colliding with election results. 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: And the reason it's particularly acute this week is probably 11 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: there's two examples of it. One is what happened at 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: the Washington Post over their decision not to endure well, 13 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: their decision not to endorse a candidates at all, and 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: whether or not that was complicated by their proprietors business interests. 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: And then the second is Elon Musk and his appearance 16 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: not just once on stage for Trump. 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 3: And we had one president who couldn't climb a flight 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 3: of stairs. 19 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 4: And another who was this pumping. 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 5: After getting shot, fight fight fight. 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: Many times over the last last few months. Now, his 22 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: metamorphosis to sort of want to be politician continues to pace. 23 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 5: Your money is being wasted, and the Apartment of Government 24 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 5: Divisions is going to fix that make the margin of 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 5: victory so big that you know what can't happen. 26 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: So it's really quite acute this week, isn't it. Steph. 27 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 5: Yeah. 28 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: I mean we're used to there being lots of big 29 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 2: corporate money involved in US elections, particularly since twenty ten, 30 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: where there was a sort of big legal ruling that 31 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: made it easier for that to happen, and for just 32 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: asked amounts to go into these campaigns over the years. 33 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 2: It always makes anyone outside the US there's sort of 34 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: head spin that the billions involved. But I think what 35 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: is obviously distinctive about this season is, on the one hand, 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 2: you have, as you say, the boardroom sort of chief 37 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 2: executive level people very nervous of engaging even to say 38 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 2: they support a peaceful transfer of power, which you would 39 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: have thought would not be controversial. And at the same 40 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 2: time a number of very high prive four billionaires being 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 2: quite you know, quite closely associated with the Trump campaign. 42 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: And we should say there's also been money going on 43 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 2: the other side, our own founder of Michael Bloomberg and 44 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: also Bill Gates. It turns out very quietly have given 45 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 2: up to fifty million dollars to Kamala Harris campaign in 46 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 2: the last in recent weeks. But you know that's sort 47 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: of that's been quite low key in their very large amounts. 48 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: And then you have, as you say, Elon Musk, very 49 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 2: publicly not just supporting Donald Trump and amplifying some of 50 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 2: the rhetoric and misinformation that is associated with the Trump campaign, 51 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 2: but I think also seeming to specifically have corporate interest 52 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: in Trump winning and potentially a future role in a 53 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 2: Trump administration. I think that is a whole new ball game. 54 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 1: It does feel like something's changed. Warren Buffett back to 55 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: Barbara in eight twelve and twelve and then Clinton in 56 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,119 Speaker 1: sixteen and this time staying out of the race. There's 57 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: more examples of that that we could cherry pick, but 58 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: that feels a particularly striking one. I think the question 59 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: for later in the podcast is has something changed or 60 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: is this a reversion to what should be normal? In 61 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: a moment, you'll hear our conversation with Charles Elson. He's 62 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: a leading authority on corporate governance issues and the founding 63 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: director of the John L. Weinberg Center for Corporate Governance. 64 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: But before we hear from Charles, we're going to chat 65 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: about one CEO who has zero qualms about sharing his 66 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: thoughts and feelings. Elon Musk, our colleague that the podcast 67 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: eat On Inc. Have created a special series about, you know, 68 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: Musk's meddling in politics. It is called Citizen Elon, and 69 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: we are not going to speak with the host, Max Chafkin. Max, 70 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: did you see this coming, the role that Musk is 71 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: playing in politics? 72 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 4: Kind of yeah. 73 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,680 Speaker 3: I mean I've been paying very close attention to Elon's 74 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 3: political evolution over the last couple of years, and with 75 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 3: the purchase of Twitter now x, he has been trending 76 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 3: in this direction. I think the surprise to me anyway, 77 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 3: is just the amount of money that he's spending. You know, 78 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 3: the latest filings, you know, it's above one hundred and 79 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: thirty million, when when you sort of look at like 80 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 3: what his pack has spent, the fact that there have 81 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 3: been some dark money spending as well, that there's other 82 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: potential races, and that there's still time between the last 83 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 3: filing and election day. 84 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 4: You know, we're looking at probably. 85 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 3: Close to two hundred million dollars and that is an 86 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 3: enormous amount of money. He's going to be one of 87 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: the biggest all time political contributors. And I haven't even 88 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,799 Speaker 3: mentioned the fact that he spent forty four billion dollars 89 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 3: to buy Twitter now X and that he has essentially 90 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 3: turned that into a right leaning a sort of campaign 91 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 3: mechanism for Foreign President Trump. 92 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: Even with those numbers, when you consider the stakes for Tesla, 93 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 1: for SpaceX and so on, people have called this the 94 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: business opportunity of the century for him. 95 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 4: That is business, yes, for sure. 96 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 3: And we've seen this with Foreign President Trump, you know, 97 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 3: kind of the last go around, like various CEOs attempting 98 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 3: to kind of leverage the fact that Trump is sort 99 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 3: of ideologically pretty flexible and that he seems to like 100 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 3: these sort of CEO types. But you're right, I mean, 101 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 3: Elon Musk is kind of unique in his position to 102 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 3: sort of benefit from an association with the former president, 103 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 3: but also the risks that he faces in terms of regulation, 104 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: you know, from a potential Harris administration. Right he is 105 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 3: a major defense contractor in SpaceX. He would very much 106 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 3: like some additional contracts to launch rockets and perhaps develop 107 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 3: weapons systems or whatever. You have have potential security concerns 108 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: that have been raised at various times. I'm sure he 109 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 3: would very much like those to go away. You also 110 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: have just like a host of regulatory agencies over the 111 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 3: last five or so years that have opened investigations or 112 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 3: have have had investigations, who have been looking into various 113 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 3: parts of Musk's empire. 114 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 4: He would of course like to continue to ignore those. 115 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 4: And then Tesla, his car company. 116 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 3: Which is, you know, the biggest source of his wealth, 117 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 3: is very much dependent on regulatory structure that of course 118 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 3: could change, and is also vuying to launch robotaxis, you know, 119 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 3: autonomous vehicles, and is hoping to have friendly regulations there. 120 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 3: So there are all sorts of ways that he's already 121 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 3: the world's richest person, but that he could become even 122 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 3: richer if Donald Trump wins in a week. 123 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,800 Speaker 2: Do you think he's expecting a concrete role in the administration? 124 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously that the President Trump has talked about 125 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 2: him leading a group to find efficiencies in government, and 126 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: this potential conflict of interests all over that, given the 127 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 2: amount of contracts he has with the government. But you 128 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: think he's actually expecting to have a role in the government. 129 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: For this is more of a defensive position. 130 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 3: It's hard to imagine Elon Musk is like a civil servant, 131 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: right Like, I don't know that this is going to 132 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 3: be a five days a week. 133 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: You can say the saying about Donald Trump being here. 134 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: I don't know that he's gonna be you know. I 135 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 3: don't know if he's gonna get a badge and show 136 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 3: up every day to work. But I do think that 137 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 3: this role that he has announced for himself and that 138 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 3: Donald Trump has repeatedly on the stump. I was at 139 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: Madison Square Garden on Sunday in New York where Trump 140 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 3: had this massive rally. Elon played a big role. They 141 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 3: were both talking about it. Other people were talking about 142 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 3: it was getting. 143 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 4: Huge applause lines. 144 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 3: The way I interpret this is that Elon Musk will 145 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 3: have a big voice in how Donald Trump seeks to 146 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 3: reform the executive branch. He's made that a huge part 147 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 3: of house, of his campaign and his kind of political project. 148 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 3: So I don't know that we should expect Elon to 149 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 3: have cabinet post or something like that. I think it's 150 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 3: much more likely that he will be effectively a senior advisor, 151 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 3: maybe the most important senior advisor to the former president. 152 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: Unlike many business people, part of His sort of demeanor 153 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 2: has often been that you get the sense that these 154 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: companies are like train sets for them, toys, you know, 155 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 2: that he gets to play with. He kind of has 156 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: that air about him, And I just wondered, does he 157 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: think the US government is now going to just be 158 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: another train set for him to play with? Now that 159 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 2: he's bought his brought his way in with this support 160 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 2: for Donald Trump and this particular candidate, he might have 161 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: the scope to do that in a way he wouldn't 162 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 2: with another candidate. 163 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 3: It seems like he definitely sees it that way now. 164 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 3: Almost ten years ago or so, SpaceX began selling this 165 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 3: flamethrower as a kind of a marketing stunt. They and 166 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 3: when it became clear that you're not supposed to sell 167 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 3: a flamethrower, he changed the name to not a Flamethrower. 168 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 4: Was a sort of jab at regulators. 169 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 3: When people brought up recently that, you know, him being 170 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 3: the CEO of Tesla and directing federal policy might be 171 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 3: a conflict of interest, he said, Oh, don't worry, We'll 172 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 3: just change the name of the Department of Government Efficiency 173 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 3: to not the Department of Government Efficiency. He clearly thinks 174 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 3: that he can essentially approach government the same way that 175 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 3: he's approached business, which is by the seat of his pants, 176 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 3: ignoring norms and regulations and like being very productive. And 177 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 3: I think that is the optimistic story that you would tell. 178 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 3: Like that is part of why Donald Trump is excited about. 179 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 3: Why the voters and why that the crowds at Madison 180 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 3: Square Garden and other Trump rallies have given him huge 181 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 3: rounds of plause. 182 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 4: That's what they're excited about. 183 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: They think he's gonna bring that kind of crazy Elon Musk, 184 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 3: you know, super productive, super weird out their business sense 185 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 3: to politics. 186 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 2: Going back to sort of boring policy substance for a 187 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 2: minute and stripping out some of the more colorful aspects 188 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 2: of this. One of the reasons why a few years 189 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 2: ago you would have said that this was an unlikely 190 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 2: combination was that the one thing that Elon was kind 191 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 2: of politically identified with was action to combat climate change, 192 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: and indeed is put that into action with Tesla with 193 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: a huge investment in electric card That is one of 194 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 2: the things that one would both the support for electric 195 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 2: vehicles and the entire stance towards climate change would be 196 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 2: one of the big changes under a Trump administration that 197 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 2: we'd expect. How does that work? How is he bridging 198 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: that gulf? 199 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:25,839 Speaker 4: Yeah? 200 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: I mean, as somebody who's followed Elon Musk for a 201 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 3: long time, and you know, I first met him in 202 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 3: two thousand and six. The thing that's weirdest about this 203 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 3: is watching Donald Trump get on the stump and essentially 204 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 3: deny that climate change is a real problem, and then 205 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 3: watching Elon Musk agree with it, Because for such a 206 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 3: long time that was impossible to imagine. Elon has been 207 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 3: very closely defined with like sort of green capitalism and 208 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 3: so on, but he's been pretty ideologically flexible. And that 209 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: definition of Elon as this green capitalist it really started 210 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 3: during the Obama years, right. He kind of embraced it 211 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: when it was most politically advantageous and has been walking 212 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 3: away from it as it has become sort of maybe 213 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 3: less politically advantageous. 214 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 4: The other thing is Elon Musk. 215 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: At this point has a dominant position in electric vehicles. 216 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 3: So if Trump were to sort of get rid of 217 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 3: all subsidies for evs, which would be a problem for Tesla, 218 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 3: and make no mistake, it would arguably hurt Tesla a 219 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 3: lot less than a lot of these other automakers who 220 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 3: are not selling tons of electric cars right now. 221 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 5: Max. 222 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: The other thing that you, as you've known, been following 223 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: him since twenty or six, then you will have the 224 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: buy below or certainly the kind of almanac on his 225 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: flip flops and his change in positions. For instance, Donald Trump. 226 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: In the Wilter Isaacson biography, it's very clear that when 227 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,319 Speaker 1: Musk first meets him, he doesn't think much of him. 228 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: And now we have the possibility of him having a 229 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: role in a possible Trump second presidency, and there's a 230 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: host of other issues aren't there where he just changes 231 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: his mind, either the facts so different or he's sort 232 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: of evolved. If he were to have a role in government, 233 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: it might be a bit dismal constraining, and he might think, actually, 234 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: I don't want to do this again. But also he 235 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 1: might decide, actually President Trump isn't doing quite what I won't, 236 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: so I'm gonna go. 237 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 3: If Kamala Harris wins next week and and becomes a president, 238 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: there are a host of these investigations, various, you know, 239 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: like issues around his security clearance. Like I would expect 240 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 3: all of those to continue, maybe to even intensify, you know, 241 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 3: it would be it would be sort of natural to 242 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 3: think that a new administration is gonna ask some hard 243 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: questions about do we really want one of our largest 244 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 3: defense contractors to be in regular touch with Latim rip Putin? 245 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 3: Do we really want one of our largest defense contractors 246 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 3: smoking pot on the Joe Rogan Show, you know, as 247 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 3: Elon Musk has done. Now on the other side, Right, 248 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 3: there's the upside for Elon Musk with Trump is obvious. Right, 249 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: Trump has said on the stump, We're just gonna order 250 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 3: up some rockets and take him to Mars. Right, He's 251 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 3: He's essentially like said, we're gonna have like I'm gonna 252 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 3: give Elon Musk a multi billion dollar contract for for 253 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 3: a Mars program that doesn't really exist at this point. 254 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 3: He suggested that he's going to let Elon Musk take 255 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 3: a red pen to the government, which of course can 256 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 3: help him. Now, the thing is, though Tesla's customer base 257 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 3: is largely progressive is liberal, they are on the left, 258 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 3: and I don't think the customer base has fully processed 259 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 3: what is happening. And so if Trump is elected, there 260 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 3: is going to be a lot of talk politically about 261 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 3: the role that Elon Musk played this historic amount of 262 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 3: money and support he played, and that I think is 263 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: going to lead to a backlash that is going to 264 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: put Tesla under pressure. There are going to be a 265 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 3: lot of people who own Tesla's who are I think 266 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 3: they're already not feeling awesome about them, but are going 267 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 3: to have to think, you know, is this the political 268 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 3: statement I want to make? And we've seen this happen 269 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 3: with the former president before. He is a cultural force 270 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 3: and it works in both directions and really help companies, 271 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 3: but it can also create a lot of pressures that 272 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 3: could put Elon Musk in an uncomfortable position, could make 273 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 3: him want to walk away. Now, if Trump loses, I 274 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,000 Speaker 3: don't think Elon Musk is going to do a one 275 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 3: to eighty. I think he is pretty committed to this 276 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 3: this kind of like. 277 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 4: You know, right wing positioning. 278 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: If Trump were to lose very badly, like a like 279 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 3: a sort of humiliating defeat, which doesn't seem likely based 280 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 3: on the polls, then I don't know. Elan is a 281 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 3: is a adaptable guy, and I would now be surprised 282 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 3: if if he evolved again. 283 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 2: Well, we can certainly expect to see a lot of 284 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: played out on X Twitter, You're gonna be so busy. 285 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 4: Absolutely, Yeah, that was great, Thank you so much. 286 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: Now we welcome Charles Elson. Charles is the founding director 287 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: of the Weinberg Center for Corporate Governance and a leading 288 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: authority on corporate governance issues. Charles, I mean this is 289 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: real issues, right, This is corporate governance issues. This is 290 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: CEO is trying to navigate what is a very finely 291 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: balanced to your selection. 292 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 5: Absolutely, this is sort of governance one oh one, and 293 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 5: it's frankly bord oversight of CEO's one oh one. And 294 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 5: it's from a CEO standpoint, it's politics one one. It's 295 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 5: a combo of everything rankly this year. 296 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 1: So Charles tell us, Okay, what is different this time 297 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: round compared to others. Has something changed in this balance? 298 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 5: Well, I think when had happened. Traditionally CEO stayed out 299 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 5: of elections. It just wasn't considered a good idea. You 300 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 5: alienated too many people by doing it. And the role 301 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 5: of the CEO is run the company, not to be 302 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 5: a political figure. That changed a couple of years ago, 303 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 5: I think really basically during the Trump administration, when there 304 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 5: was significant opposition to him in parts of the business community. 305 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 5: And with the two thousand election, which was considered such 306 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 5: a choice, if you will, between two dramatically ways of 307 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 5: looking at things, and combined with the summer of George Floyd, 308 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 5: companies became much more politically active than they had been. 309 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 5: You saw all kinds of statements where companies were opposing 310 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 5: changes to the voting rights laws in certain states. You 311 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 5: heard all kinds of demands for companies to make statements 312 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 5: on political issues, and a lot of CEOs did and 313 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 5: felt that it was their role their obligation to do so. 314 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 5: Some did, I think, based on personal conviction. Others did 315 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 5: it I think because they felt they were getting enormous 316 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 5: pressure from their employees. You had the huge controversy at 317 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 5: Disney where Disney announced it was not taking a position 318 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 5: on a particular law that it was. The CEO ultimately left, 319 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 5: and this really started a debate in this country as 320 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 5: to whether or not the CEOs should really be that 321 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 5: involved in the political process. They always kind of were, 322 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 5: because companies did, through packs and whatnot, made contributions well 323 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 5: through their packs, i should say, to candidates, and there 324 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 5: were CEOs who personally contributed on both sides of the 325 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 5: aisle to candidates companies are always accused traditionally of being 326 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 5: very pro Republican, and a case that came out of 327 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 5: the Supreme Court that basically allowed corporations to make direct 328 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 5: political effectively make political contributions, not to campaigns, but to 329 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 5: make their views known on political issues Citizens United, if 330 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 5: you recall, it came out during the Obama administration, and 331 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 5: people on the left at least decried it, saying this 332 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 5: is going to increase corporate influence over the elections. Problem is, 333 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 5: it didn't work out that way. It turns out that 334 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 5: most large corporations ended up supporting democratic causes as opposed 335 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 5: to Republican causes, and it was the other party who 336 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 5: got upset about the ruling. So that's where That's kind 337 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,719 Speaker 5: of where we were until now that sets up for now. 338 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 2: It's very interesting you say that there's obviously been big 339 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: money flowing into politics on both sides thanks to Citizens United. 340 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 2: That decision, I guess that was in twenty ten. But 341 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 2: that doesn't put a lot of money on both sides 342 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 2: of the political argument in the US in a way 343 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 2: that certainly in the UK and in Europe we would 344 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: find is against our sort of culture of political contributions. 345 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: But the thing that striking this time, I would have 346 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 2: thought was that even stating that you're in favor of 347 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 2: free and fair elections has become something that chief executives 348 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: are nervous of doing, and that seems like that takes 349 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: things to a whole different level. 350 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 5: Oh, I think it does, because what happened was because 351 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 5: after the significant corporate involvement, it created a blowback. It 352 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 5: was felt that a number of companies in the stands 353 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 5: they were taking were very I guess sort of left 354 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 5: of center as opposed to right of center, and the 355 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 5: particularly following the abortion ruling of Roe v. Wade, and 356 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 5: a lot of folks on the right of the divide, 357 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 5: felt that corporations had become a captive to the left 358 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 5: the divide. So they threatened, boycott's attacked, and CEOs for 359 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 5: speaking out, employees got angry, and you created a mess. 360 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,239 Speaker 5: And the mess, frankly, could have been avoided had the 361 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:09,120 Speaker 5: CEOs not jumped into this thing to begin with, which happened, 362 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 5: as I said, during the Trump era and after the 363 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 5: two thousand elections, that's what really blew it up. And 364 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 5: a lot of people, including me, said, look, you need 365 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 5: to stay out of this completely because it divides people, 366 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 5: and companies only work if there's unanimity within the company 367 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 5: on corporate purpose despite your politics. Now that being said, 368 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 5: the democracy point I think you make a good one 369 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 5: is why is it so terrible to support democracy? Because 370 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:41,159 Speaker 5: it became a politicized term. Trump was viewed as anti 371 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 5: democratic or complaining about the results of the election. He 372 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 5: was a threat to democracy, so that term became rather 373 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 5: than we all are supported democracy, the term became loaded 374 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 5: and that it was well supporting quote democracy means opposing Trump, 375 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 5: supporting you know, Joe Biden or Kambella Harris. That's the 376 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 5: issue now, So. 377 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: Charles, can we just be clear. Do you think what 378 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: we're seeing right now, which is essentially it looks like 379 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: the sort of pedging by CEO sitting on the fence, 380 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, do you think that 381 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: that is because of the very real possibility of retribution 382 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: by a second president Trump or do you think that 383 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: this is a backlash or you know, a swing back 384 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: to the norm. 385 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 5: Oh, I think it's a return to the tradition. I 386 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 5: don't think it's based on you know, fear of retribution. 387 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 5: It's fear of retribution from your customers. That's the problems, 388 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 5: and that's really what happened. I think they learn the 389 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 5: lesson that, look, by taking a stance, half the country 390 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 5: will love you, the other half will hate you, and 391 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 5: that's terrible way to run a business. 392 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 2: People would be surprised to hear you say it's sort 393 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 2: of back to the previous datus quote, because obviously in 394 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: the old days, there wasn't a sort of majority of 395 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: American voters expecting potentially violence on either side of election day, 396 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 2: and we hadn't had a presidential candidate refused to concede 397 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 2: an election result. So it does feel like the stakes 398 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 2: are quite high. 399 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 5: I think the danger when you get jumped into this, 400 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 5: whether you're pro or anti Trump or pro or Annie Harris, 401 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:24,479 Speaker 5: it's that because we're so divided as a country, no 402 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 5: matter what you do in a political stance, you're going 403 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 5: to offend half your audience, half your employees. 404 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: But it shouldn't be political, though, right. I guess that's 405 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 2: the issue. I think that's what concerns people is and 406 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 2: you pointed it out yourself that what has become political 407 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 2: is actually supporting the constitution, right. 408 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 5: I don't think the Republican Party or the Democratic Party 409 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 5: frankly at their core support violence. I don't believe that, 410 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 5: and I think that in the end, if something does 411 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 5: come up, I would be shocked if either party condoned 412 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 5: it either way. I just don't think that's part of 413 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 5: the There's a lot of heated rhetoric. But I think 414 00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 5: when push comes to shove, ultimately the rhetoric disappears and 415 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 5: you come together as a country. But I just don't 416 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 5: I don't see that happening clearly. 417 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:15,360 Speaker 1: January the sixth slightly slightly complicates that assertion. I think 418 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: we'd all like to agree that you're right, but I mean, 419 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: it was it was it was a it was an uprising, 420 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: and it was an uprising that had that did have 421 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: some support from the then that then booted out President. 422 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 5: Well, he made a terrible mistake, and I think that, 423 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 5: you know, frankly, his rhetoric was improper. I agree, And 424 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 5: that's the problem with heated rhetoric on either side us. 425 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 5: You know, his rhetoric or the rhetoric of you know, 426 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 5: using fascists, this, that and the other. It's that it's 427 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 5: really a bad thing to do. It insides violence on 428 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 5: both sides. Trump, you know, he's a strange figure he's 429 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 5: a populist and populist listen, Andrew Jackson was a populous 430 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,959 Speaker 5: I mean, I can go back in history. I mean 431 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 5: I can think of Gosh, wave back, Lofolette was a populist. 432 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 5: I mean, they all use that kind of rhetoric. 433 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 2: It's a much longer tradition in the US than it 434 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 2: is in other places. And you certainly have populis on 435 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 2: both sides going back into the nineteenth century, and we've 436 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: had in the early nineties and two thousand sort of precursors. 437 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: Patrick Buchanan, all those people. I think you're describing what 438 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 2: and you talk about the boardroom, you describe what many 439 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 2: chief executives certainly the approach they would like to take 440 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: if they feel, you know, if they're able to, if 441 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 2: the situation doesn't become so polarized that they're really forced 442 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 2: to sort of stand up for something. I guess many 443 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 2: people would say the action is elsewhere. Actually in these 444 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: in the billionaire donors to it with very kind of 445 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 2: personal support for candidates, and you know, in the case 446 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 2: of Elon Musk, for example, we'd talk elsewhere in the 447 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 2: program about, you know, the very public role he's taking. 448 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: I just wonder do you think that. 449 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 5: Well, you know, mister Musk and I have had our 450 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 5: disagreements on his pay issues. You know, look, I think 451 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 5: a normal CEO, a normal CEO, and a normal board 452 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 5: would never have been allowed to do what mister Musk 453 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 5: has done in this situation. I think that what he's 454 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 5: done is expressed as dramatic support for one candidate, and 455 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 5: it's polarizing. I'm sure that people who work for him 456 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 5: probably are just as divided as the rest of the country. 457 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 5: And taking a position like that is a real problem 458 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 5: in your organization. And I think that that gets to 459 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,199 Speaker 5: the heart of the issues with Tesla and the board. 460 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 5: This was the criticism that the judge had that the 461 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:49,239 Speaker 5: board was not independent she found of mister Musk, and 462 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 5: I think that this what's happened today kind of demonstrates 463 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 5: that because any normal board would say stay out of this, 464 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 5: this is not your area. 465 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: You say, normal bullet, But we're talking about Ela Musk 466 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: and we're talking about Tesla. I'm talking about space X. 467 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a company the reverse park to rocket, 468 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: you know, ten days ago, two weeks ago. It's not 469 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: a normal company. Where does this end with this? As 470 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: you say this very abnormal relationship between a billionaire an 471 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 1: entrepreneur that's being offered a job in government. Right, we know, 472 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: if Trump wins, he's going into government. Where does this end? 473 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 5: Well, I think the question is does he actually end 474 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 5: up with a job and A does Trump win? B 475 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 5: does he actually end up with a job in government? 476 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 5: And see what has that due to the rest of 477 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 5: his companies. You got to remember too, He's got a 478 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 5: lot of stock in Tesla, and he leaves Tesla as 479 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 5: what he threatened to do, the stock in Tesla falls 480 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 5: and his worth falls. That's the crux of this whole 481 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 5: compensation dispute, which has to do with giving him an 482 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 5: extra twenty percent of the company, which you remember, or 483 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 5: fifteen percent, which if you remember to begin with that 484 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 5: he had a lot of twenty five percent. He sold 485 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 5: some of it to buy x now, and so is 486 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 5: ownership position came down. He wants this compensation to bring 487 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 5: his position up. But if he leaves Tesla, theoretically so 488 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 5: it's argued, the value collapses. That's the hell of the 489 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 5: whole thing. It's a strange situation. But the question is 490 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 5: why in the world would a board let someone put 491 00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 5: themselves in this particular situation. Remember, they did just stockholders 492 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 5: of Teeslas. They did, and that suggests to me, or 493 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 5: at least it backs up the judges view that they 494 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 5: weren't independent of him. That's all she said in the opinion. 495 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 5: They weren't. They were paid so much money that they 496 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 5: be on that board that they were not going to 497 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 5: be independent. 498 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 2: So I think there's any downside for company executives or 499 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 2: for companies to have sat this one out to the 500 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 2: extent that they've managed to do that. I'm just wondering 501 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 2: when things like in the sort of the heat of 502 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 2: Black Lives Matter, I think there were a lot of 503 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 2: companies that just felt, due to the nature of their 504 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 2: customer base, they couldn't afford to stay out of it. 505 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 2: They had to have a carefully modulated but a sort 506 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: of sympathetic statement. And obviously the statement black lives matter 507 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: also should not be controversial, even though it came to 508 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: signify many things, but both in terms of their relationship 509 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 2: with their employees and particularly certain generations, younger generations, but 510 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: in the sort of broader customer base. I just wonder 511 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 2: whether you think there's any companies that at least are 512 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 2: a little bit nervous about the flip side. You know, 513 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: they may be worried now about retribution by future president Trump, 514 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: but what about five or ten years time if they've 515 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: not been vocal at key moments. 516 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 5: I just think you make a mistake when you mix 517 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 5: politics and business, politics and economics. I think you make 518 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 5: a mistake because an economic venture is oddly enough, one 519 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 5: of the few places still around where everyone can agree 520 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 5: and that we all want to produce a good product 521 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 5: and a fair price and make a profit and get paid. Well, 522 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 5: that's everyone can agree to. That, that's universal, and that's 523 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 5: what's so nice ahead of business that you check your 524 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 5: politics at the door, you check your clients at the door. 525 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 5: In the end, you need to separate the two. You 526 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 5: know that. That's why you never talk about politics at Thanksgiving, 527 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 5: which is coming up here in a couple of weeks, 528 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,600 Speaker 5: because it always ends up in a terrible argument and 529 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 5: it's sort of pointless. Just think of it this way. 530 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 5: If the only people saying crazy things are the politicians, 531 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 5: then the rest of the world stays sane. Everyone else. 532 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 2: If it's true that Jeff Bezos prevented them from declaring 533 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: a choice in the presidential election, as they always have 534 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,720 Speaker 2: in an editorial. Do you think that was a good 535 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: judgment by Jeff Bezos about the rest of his company. 536 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 5: I think it was a very bold decision of William 537 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 5: Lewis's part. He and I are old friends, and I'm 538 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 5: curious as to what whether it came from Bezos or 539 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 5: it came from from William. But it was an interesting 540 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 5: stand and in a way it was smart, I think, 541 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 5: and suggesting in this partisan year, we are going to 542 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 5: report and let you decide. We're not going to try 543 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 5: to influence you one way or the other, because once 544 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 5: you start to take a position, it affects the way 545 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 5: you present the facts. And I think that's the argument here. Again, 546 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 5: I don't know what their reasoning was or not, but 547 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 5: at least when I saw it, I took it that way. 548 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: And it's complicated by the fact that three of the 549 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: editorial board have resigned over it. I think that there's 550 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,719 Speaker 1: some suggestion that they had written an editorial for Kamana 551 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: Harris one. And I think the other complicating fact has 552 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: to be you know, I think we have to agree 553 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: that that Bezos having such financial interest both in his 554 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: Blue Origin company but also in aws in federal government 555 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: contracts does make it a complex picture. 556 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 4: It is. 557 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: I've had a lot of sympathy reading his quote saying listen, actually, 558 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: newspaper endorsements don't really matter anymore. I think we can 559 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: all agree that there's some evidence of that one. And 560 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: also to your point just then is powerful, which is 561 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: it just creates a sense of bias that irritates fifty 562 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: percent of our readership. That's one hand, But on the 563 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: other hand, he is his companies make a lot from 564 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: the federal government. 565 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 5: You know, that's that's a fair point. Again, I don't 566 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 5: know where that came into is thinking or not. 567 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: It insists not. 568 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 5: It is fascinating that this is the first time I 569 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 5: can remember where a paper actually said actually the two 570 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 5: papers that are saying, you know, they're not going to 571 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 5: endorse anyone. 572 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 2: That was quite clear as well. The publishers in LA 573 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 2: Times they've prevented it. 574 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 5: La Times, Yeah, which I thought was really But I 575 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 5: get they have an interesting point, But do people really 576 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 5: support the endorsements and when you endorse? 577 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 2: But why have they not had this point before? I 578 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 2: guess that's what we're going back to the uniqueness of 579 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 2: Donald Trump, aren't we Because why is it that businesses 580 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 2: felt more nervous about this than in the past. 581 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: And I think, and I think, to just back up 582 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: your points, Steph might view, you know, Charles, earlier you 583 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: were saying this is a healthy corrective to the kind 584 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: of over in elligence of CEOs, thinking people cared about 585 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: their opinion esg and all of that. But I suppose 586 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 1: my kind of head scratch on this is why why 587 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: is it at one minute to midnight? Why is it 588 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: sort of ten days to go? Why did we not 589 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: see this repositioning earlier in the year when they say, look, okay, 590 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,240 Speaker 1: we're approaching this election year and we're going to have 591 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: a different approach. We're not going to be endorsing, and 592 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: we're going to sit back and watch. 593 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 5: I think the rhetoric. I think the rhetoric got too hot. 594 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 5: I think the I think the assassination attempt, the two 595 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 5: attempts on Trump. I think that the language that you 596 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 5: began to see, you know, the last couple of weeks, 597 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 5: particularly the use of the term nazi fascist, really turned 598 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 5: up the heat so significantly that people became frightened. There's 599 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 5: nothing more divisive than this within families that happens, you know, 600 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 5: I would constantly get into a debate with my dad 601 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 5: at Thanksgiving, and finally I realized he's not going to 602 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 5: change my mind and I'm not going to change his. 603 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 5: What's the point you enjoyed it? 604 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: That's you have raised a good point. There's many things 605 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 2: that people are sort of raising themselves and potentially dreading 606 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 2: about the next few weeks and Thanksgiving dinner with the 607 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 2: rest of the family. 608 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 5: I'm going to be in England for the election, so 609 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 5: you come. 610 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: To the safe. That's fantastic. Charles Elson, thank you very 611 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 1: much for joining us. Thanks for listening to this week's 612 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: voting nomics from Bloomberg. This episode was hosted by me 613 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: Alecri Stratton with Stephanie Flanders. It was produced by Sumersadi, 614 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 1: production support from Isabella Ward, sound designed by Moses, and 615 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: special thanks to Max Chafkin and Charles Elson. Please subscribe, rate, 616 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: and review wherever you listen to podcasts.