1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin. In the first years of this century, there was 2 00:00:22,636 --> 00:00:25,996 Speaker 1: a wave of technological innovation in the way people get 3 00:00:26,036 --> 00:00:29,396 Speaker 1: oil and gas out of the ground. It was popularly 4 00:00:29,436 --> 00:00:32,716 Speaker 1: referred to as fracking, but in fact fracking had been 5 00:00:32,716 --> 00:00:35,436 Speaker 1: around for a long time. What was going on was 6 00:00:35,516 --> 00:00:39,036 Speaker 1: a combination of techniques that people in the industry called 7 00:00:39,116 --> 00:00:42,956 Speaker 1: the shale revolution. This boom brought down the price of 8 00:00:43,036 --> 00:00:46,396 Speaker 1: natural gas, and it turned the United States into the 9 00:00:46,436 --> 00:00:51,676 Speaker 1: world's biggest producer of oil and gas. It also arguably 10 00:00:51,956 --> 00:00:56,196 Speaker 1: extended human being's ability to live in a fossil fuel 11 00:00:56,356 --> 00:01:00,676 Speaker 1: powered world, slowed the transition to carbon free energy, and 12 00:01:00,756 --> 00:01:06,396 Speaker 1: so made climate change worse. But what if you could 13 00:01:06,436 --> 00:01:11,236 Speaker 1: take the technological innovations of the shale revolution and use 14 00:01:11,316 --> 00:01:14,796 Speaker 1: them to generate a different kind of energy, energy that's 15 00:01:14,876 --> 00:01:18,036 Speaker 1: carbon free energy, that helps get the world off of 16 00:01:18,116 --> 00:01:26,956 Speaker 1: fossil fuels. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem, 17 00:01:27,036 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 1: the show where I talk to people who are trying 18 00:01:29,236 --> 00:01:33,436 Speaker 1: to make technological progress. My guest today is Tim Latimer. 19 00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:37,796 Speaker 1: He's the co founder and CEO of Fervo Energy. Tim's 20 00:01:37,796 --> 00:01:40,996 Speaker 1: problem is this, how do you use innovations from the 21 00:01:40,996 --> 00:01:46,276 Speaker 1: oil and gas industry to generate carbon free energy. Tim 22 00:01:46,316 --> 00:01:49,036 Speaker 1: told me he started his career deep in the heart 23 00:01:49,396 --> 00:01:50,436 Speaker 1: of the shale revolution. 24 00:01:52,316 --> 00:01:54,996 Speaker 2: I grew up in Texas and then I went to 25 00:01:54,996 --> 00:01:59,516 Speaker 2: college at the University of Tulsa, both places where you know, 26 00:01:59,556 --> 00:02:01,716 Speaker 2: sort of the oil and gas industries in the blood 27 00:02:01,756 --> 00:02:06,796 Speaker 2: of the people here. And I happened to graduate at 28 00:02:06,836 --> 00:02:11,476 Speaker 2: the very advent of the US oil and gas shale boom. 29 00:02:12,796 --> 00:02:16,076 Speaker 2: And I think probably almost everybody I knew went into 30 00:02:16,116 --> 00:02:18,276 Speaker 2: the oil and gas industry out of my college class 31 00:02:18,396 --> 00:02:20,796 Speaker 2: as kind of a consequence of it being a boom 32 00:02:20,836 --> 00:02:23,756 Speaker 2: time in Oklahoma. And so I took a job back 33 00:02:23,796 --> 00:02:26,596 Speaker 2: in what was my original hometown of Houston, started my 34 00:02:26,636 --> 00:02:30,076 Speaker 2: career as a drilling engineer, and in that role, I 35 00:02:30,116 --> 00:02:33,476 Speaker 2: mostly worked out on the rigs themselves as a site supervisor. 36 00:02:33,516 --> 00:02:35,596 Speaker 2: So I've spent the majority of my time with the 37 00:02:35,596 --> 00:02:39,236 Speaker 2: oil field, either in South Texas or West Texas, supervising 38 00:02:39,556 --> 00:02:40,436 Speaker 2: field crews. 39 00:02:40,996 --> 00:02:43,596 Speaker 1: So what was the turn? Why aren't you still doing that? 40 00:02:44,596 --> 00:02:47,556 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting even when I joined the industry, 41 00:02:47,796 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 2: already had some questions about, you know, what is the 42 00:02:50,676 --> 00:02:53,436 Speaker 2: future in this industry in a world where we all 43 00:02:53,476 --> 00:02:55,756 Speaker 2: know that climate change is a much more serious energet 44 00:02:55,756 --> 00:02:59,596 Speaker 2: problem than we had previously understood. And so what I 45 00:02:59,716 --> 00:03:01,996 Speaker 2: found is that the more time I spent in the industry, 46 00:03:02,076 --> 00:03:05,156 Speaker 2: the more passionate I was about climate change, and the 47 00:03:05,276 --> 00:03:09,236 Speaker 2: less I was seeing the industry adapt around me the 48 00:03:09,236 --> 00:03:12,036 Speaker 2: way I thought was necessary to face the urgent crisis 49 00:03:12,036 --> 00:03:12,556 Speaker 2: of climate. 50 00:03:12,916 --> 00:03:15,596 Speaker 1: So what's the move? What do you do? Well? 51 00:03:15,636 --> 00:03:19,996 Speaker 2: I was looking at clean energy, and I thought what 52 00:03:20,436 --> 00:03:23,396 Speaker 2: can I do? And so when I looked at solar 53 00:03:23,476 --> 00:03:26,996 Speaker 2: or wind or automotive, I thought, you know, in electric vehicles. 54 00:03:26,996 --> 00:03:29,236 Speaker 2: I thought, these are all important things, but what do 55 00:03:29,316 --> 00:03:32,036 Speaker 2: I have to add there? And so I was always 56 00:03:32,116 --> 00:03:34,796 Speaker 2: kind of looking for my move. And then actually an 57 00:03:34,876 --> 00:03:37,476 Speaker 2: early project I worked on when I was a drilling 58 00:03:37,516 --> 00:03:40,596 Speaker 2: engineer in South Texas. The wells we were drilling are 59 00:03:40,596 --> 00:03:43,676 Speaker 2: actually a little bit higher temperature than normal oil and 60 00:03:43,716 --> 00:03:46,916 Speaker 2: gas wells, and so one of my first jobs was, hey, 61 00:03:46,956 --> 00:03:51,636 Speaker 2: research how we can make high temperature drilling work. And 62 00:03:51,876 --> 00:03:54,836 Speaker 2: all of the literature I found on researching high temperature 63 00:03:54,876 --> 00:03:57,556 Speaker 2: drilling came from this field called geothermal, and this was 64 00:03:57,636 --> 00:04:00,036 Speaker 2: about a decade ago, and to be honest, I'd never 65 00:04:00,036 --> 00:04:02,196 Speaker 2: heard of geothermal before at that point in time, and 66 00:04:03,956 --> 00:04:05,956 Speaker 2: I read more about it, and it was like, Oh, 67 00:04:05,956 --> 00:04:08,476 Speaker 2: you drill wells, but you just produce steam and you 68 00:04:08,516 --> 00:04:11,636 Speaker 2: make carbon free electricity from it. And that's where I 69 00:04:11,636 --> 00:04:14,196 Speaker 2: became incredibly excited about the opportunity. I was like, wait, 70 00:04:14,236 --> 00:04:15,836 Speaker 2: I can do what I already know how to do, 71 00:04:16,996 --> 00:04:20,236 Speaker 2: but for a carbon free and sustainable energy resource, and 72 00:04:20,276 --> 00:04:22,036 Speaker 2: that to me just seemed too good of an opportunity 73 00:04:22,036 --> 00:04:22,636 Speaker 2: to pass up. 74 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:25,436 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, one of the most interesting things to 75 00:04:25,476 --> 00:04:28,436 Speaker 1: me about what you're trying to do at a certain 76 00:04:28,516 --> 00:04:34,356 Speaker 1: level is you're trying to take this innovation that came 77 00:04:34,476 --> 00:04:37,156 Speaker 1: out of the fossil fuel industry, probably the most important 78 00:04:37,156 --> 00:04:39,276 Speaker 1: innovation of the twenty first century in the fossil fuel 79 00:04:39,316 --> 00:04:43,476 Speaker 1: industry right and use it to get energy without fossil fuels, 80 00:04:43,476 --> 00:04:45,396 Speaker 1: to move us away from fossil fuels. Is there something 81 00:04:45,396 --> 00:04:47,396 Speaker 1: really elegant about that? 82 00:04:48,036 --> 00:04:50,676 Speaker 2: There is, and that was something that always appealed to 83 00:04:50,676 --> 00:04:52,836 Speaker 2: me in the job of oil and gas. I mean, honestly, 84 00:04:52,876 --> 00:04:56,036 Speaker 2: if it wasn't for climate change and sustainability challenges, I 85 00:04:56,036 --> 00:04:58,156 Speaker 2: would have never left that career because it's a very 86 00:04:58,156 --> 00:05:01,276 Speaker 2: exciting thing. You're working with really bright people and solving 87 00:05:01,316 --> 00:05:03,756 Speaker 2: major technical challenges and one of the things that was 88 00:05:03,796 --> 00:05:07,556 Speaker 2: exciting for me is a decade ago, the advent of 89 00:05:07,596 --> 00:05:10,556 Speaker 2: things like horizontal drilling was still so new that the 90 00:05:10,556 --> 00:05:13,036 Speaker 2: innovations were coming out fast and furious. You know, when 91 00:05:13,076 --> 00:05:15,196 Speaker 2: you work in the field, I was working a two 92 00:05:15,196 --> 00:05:17,356 Speaker 2: week on, two week off rotation. You know, you go 93 00:05:17,396 --> 00:05:18,076 Speaker 2: live on the rig for. 94 00:05:18,116 --> 00:05:20,276 Speaker 1: Two out you live on an oil rig, yeah. 95 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:21,876 Speaker 2: Yep, and then you have two weeks off. And the 96 00:05:21,956 --> 00:05:23,836 Speaker 2: number of times I came back from my two weeks 97 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:25,876 Speaker 2: off and there was a new piece of equipment out there, 98 00:05:26,236 --> 00:05:28,876 Speaker 2: or a new function or a new software program that 99 00:05:28,956 --> 00:05:32,076 Speaker 2: had been developed in our time off was just shocking. 100 00:05:32,116 --> 00:05:33,796 Speaker 2: It was just so invigorating to work in a place 101 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 2: where the technology advancement was happening so rapidly. And so 102 00:05:38,636 --> 00:05:40,796 Speaker 2: that's one of the things that clicked for me whenever 103 00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:43,916 Speaker 2: I looked at geothermal is geothermal is an industry that 104 00:05:44,036 --> 00:05:47,276 Speaker 2: historically has been much smaller than oil and gas, and 105 00:05:47,316 --> 00:05:49,116 Speaker 2: they just don't drill as much many wells as oil 106 00:05:49,156 --> 00:05:52,356 Speaker 2: and gas. And for a variety of reasons. Right when 107 00:05:52,356 --> 00:05:55,236 Speaker 2: the shale boom and fracking was taking off for oil 108 00:05:55,276 --> 00:05:58,956 Speaker 2: and gas in America fifteen years ago, it became a 109 00:05:58,956 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 2: really tough market for geothermal. So right when the drilling 110 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:05,396 Speaker 2: technology breakthroughs were coming fast and furious, no one was 111 00:06:05,396 --> 00:06:09,276 Speaker 2: actually drilling geothermal wells anymore because of economic challenges. So 112 00:06:10,156 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 2: I think as a result, there wasn't this technology transfer, 113 00:06:13,836 --> 00:06:17,436 Speaker 2: this natural dissemination of information from oil and gas drilling 114 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:20,636 Speaker 2: to geothermal drilling. And I started looking at things like 115 00:06:20,716 --> 00:06:24,876 Speaker 2: the cost assumptions that went into what people thought it 116 00:06:24,916 --> 00:06:27,796 Speaker 2: would cost to drill geothermal well and I realized that 117 00:06:27,796 --> 00:06:33,396 Speaker 2: they were somewhat frozen in time from before the advent 118 00:06:33,556 --> 00:06:36,196 Speaker 2: of the shale boom, and as a result, it was 119 00:06:36,316 --> 00:06:40,436 Speaker 2: using performance targets that were a decade too old, and 120 00:06:40,636 --> 00:06:43,036 Speaker 2: with as fast as the innovation was happening in our sector, 121 00:06:43,316 --> 00:06:46,396 Speaker 2: a decade too old and it was ten times too conservative. 122 00:06:46,916 --> 00:06:48,356 Speaker 1: Huh. It would be like if you were trying to 123 00:06:48,356 --> 00:06:50,996 Speaker 1: build something with AI right now and we're sort of 124 00:06:51,276 --> 00:06:55,196 Speaker 1: using assumptions about AI five years ago or something exactly. 125 00:06:55,236 --> 00:06:56,996 Speaker 2: To give you an example of that, you know, when 126 00:06:57,036 --> 00:06:58,996 Speaker 2: you think about the year Tesla was founded in two 127 00:06:59,036 --> 00:07:02,356 Speaker 2: thousand and three, nobody, not the big automotive companies, not 128 00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:06,316 Speaker 2: the Department of Energy, No one assumed that electric vehicles 129 00:07:06,356 --> 00:07:08,116 Speaker 2: were going to actually be a meaningful part of the 130 00:07:08,196 --> 00:07:10,836 Speaker 2: energy mix. And the big reason was that they thought 131 00:07:10,996 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 2: the battery storage was going to be too expensive. And 132 00:07:13,796 --> 00:07:15,796 Speaker 2: you know what, if we had to start an industry 133 00:07:15,836 --> 00:07:19,036 Speaker 2: from scratch where the only use case for batteries was 134 00:07:20,156 --> 00:07:22,956 Speaker 2: electric vehicles, it would have never come down the cost curve. 135 00:07:23,276 --> 00:07:25,196 Speaker 2: But what happened in the nineties. We came out with 136 00:07:25,196 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 2: cell phones and laptops, and all of a sudden, lithium 137 00:07:28,116 --> 00:07:32,876 Speaker 2: ion batteries got incredibly cheap and incredibly high quality because 138 00:07:32,916 --> 00:07:36,676 Speaker 2: there was a huge manufacturing production system that grew up 139 00:07:36,716 --> 00:07:39,356 Speaker 2: around providing a nice battery for your laptop and phone. 140 00:07:39,796 --> 00:07:42,956 Speaker 2: And so the innovation Tesla had was, OK, everybody was 141 00:07:43,076 --> 00:07:48,356 Speaker 2: using decade old assumptions on battery technology, but there's been 142 00:07:48,356 --> 00:07:51,836 Speaker 2: a boom in battery technology driven by consumer electronics. What 143 00:07:51,876 --> 00:07:53,316 Speaker 2: if we just tape them all together and put them 144 00:07:53,316 --> 00:07:55,996 Speaker 2: in a car. And so it's amazing how often you 145 00:07:56,036 --> 00:08:00,236 Speaker 2: see innovations where you know, if geothermal had to completely 146 00:08:00,236 --> 00:08:03,356 Speaker 2: reinvent the way that wells were drilled to be successful, 147 00:08:03,636 --> 00:08:05,876 Speaker 2: it'd be really tough to do. But whenever we can 148 00:08:05,916 --> 00:08:08,036 Speaker 2: look at an industry like oil and gas that drills 149 00:08:08,116 --> 00:08:10,716 Speaker 2: one hundred times as many way else the geothermal industry does, 150 00:08:11,076 --> 00:08:13,796 Speaker 2: and then cherry pick the innovations from that to advance 151 00:08:13,836 --> 00:08:17,756 Speaker 2: our cost curve forward. It can be have dramatic results. 152 00:08:18,636 --> 00:08:23,516 Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about geothermal energy. I mean, 153 00:08:24,276 --> 00:08:26,316 Speaker 1: what it is is kind of right there in the name, 154 00:08:26,396 --> 00:08:29,116 Speaker 1: but let's start there. Anyways, what's geothermal energy? 155 00:08:29,916 --> 00:08:32,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, the name, you know, basically means earth and hot, 156 00:08:32,916 --> 00:08:35,636 Speaker 2: and that's sort of the basic premise of what we're 157 00:08:35,676 --> 00:08:38,476 Speaker 2: going for. You know, the world is very big, and 158 00:08:38,516 --> 00:08:40,436 Speaker 2: the world is very hot, and the deeper you go, 159 00:08:40,596 --> 00:08:44,916 Speaker 2: the hotter it gets, and so you know, the energy 160 00:08:44,956 --> 00:08:47,156 Speaker 2: content in the heat of the Earth is so large 161 00:08:47,196 --> 00:08:51,836 Speaker 2: that it's essentially inexhaustible. And so geothermal really has been 162 00:08:51,876 --> 00:08:54,116 Speaker 2: around for millennia. You know, you can go and visit 163 00:08:54,196 --> 00:08:58,316 Speaker 2: these you know, Roman baths all over Europe or elsewhere 164 00:08:58,436 --> 00:09:00,916 Speaker 2: that were built on thermal hot springs, and if you 165 00:09:00,956 --> 00:09:03,396 Speaker 2: think about it, that's geothermal energy at work. You're swimming 166 00:09:03,436 --> 00:09:06,276 Speaker 2: in a nice heated pool because the hot water is 167 00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:08,796 Speaker 2: flowing up from the heat of the Earth. And then 168 00:09:08,796 --> 00:09:11,916 Speaker 2: around one hundred years ago in Italy, actually in Tuscany, 169 00:09:12,356 --> 00:09:15,956 Speaker 2: the very first geothermal power project worked where some a 170 00:09:15,996 --> 00:09:18,476 Speaker 2: brilliant team came up with the idea that, you know, 171 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:20,316 Speaker 2: if there's steam coming out of the ground because it's 172 00:09:20,316 --> 00:09:22,476 Speaker 2: really hot here, what if we use that to power 173 00:09:22,516 --> 00:09:26,236 Speaker 2: a turbine and make electricity. So the first ever electricity 174 00:09:26,276 --> 00:09:28,996 Speaker 2: from geothermal came from tapping into some of these natural 175 00:09:29,356 --> 00:09:32,436 Speaker 2: steam vents over one hundred years ago. And that's sort 176 00:09:32,436 --> 00:09:35,396 Speaker 2: of the idea of geothermal as it's advanced. You know, 177 00:09:35,716 --> 00:09:37,836 Speaker 2: you know, the number of spots where steam literally comes 178 00:09:37,836 --> 00:09:39,756 Speaker 2: out of the ground on its own is a little 179 00:09:39,756 --> 00:09:43,836 Speaker 2: bit limited. So people began using the idea of drilling 180 00:09:43,956 --> 00:09:46,276 Speaker 2: and so starting back in New Zealand and the northern 181 00:09:46,276 --> 00:09:49,796 Speaker 2: California in like the nineteen fifties and sixties, people started 182 00:09:49,876 --> 00:09:53,036 Speaker 2: drilling wells in areas where they knew the geology was hotter, 183 00:09:53,436 --> 00:09:57,156 Speaker 2: which replaces that are basically so hot that steam is practically, 184 00:09:57,236 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 2: you know, bursting to come out of the ground, and 185 00:09:58,796 --> 00:10:01,276 Speaker 2: then you drill into those areas. And that was really 186 00:10:01,276 --> 00:10:04,996 Speaker 2: what the industry took off on, and you know, began 187 00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:07,836 Speaker 2: sixty years ago with that kind of geothermal development, and 188 00:10:07,876 --> 00:10:10,916 Speaker 2: it's progressed now to be and twenty five countries all 189 00:10:10,956 --> 00:10:13,676 Speaker 2: over the world there's twenty five countries more that have 190 00:10:13,716 --> 00:10:17,876 Speaker 2: geothermal projects and development. As a total percentage of the 191 00:10:18,356 --> 00:10:20,156 Speaker 2: energy mix, it's less than one percent of the world 192 00:10:20,276 --> 00:10:24,356 Speaker 2: energy mix, so it's still not huge, but it's really 193 00:10:24,396 --> 00:10:26,276 Speaker 2: meaningful in certain markets. 194 00:10:26,276 --> 00:10:29,996 Speaker 1: Like there just aren't that many places where everything lines 195 00:10:30,116 --> 00:10:33,236 Speaker 1: up so that with this sort of twentieth century technology 196 00:10:33,676 --> 00:10:36,316 Speaker 1: you can get energy from the heat of the earth 197 00:10:36,356 --> 00:10:39,036 Speaker 1: in an efficient and useful way. Right, it's quite limited 198 00:10:39,116 --> 00:10:39,556 Speaker 1: in the end. 199 00:10:39,876 --> 00:10:44,196 Speaker 2: Exactly exactly what we found with geothermal is that as 200 00:10:44,196 --> 00:10:48,436 Speaker 2: we tapped those really low hanging fruit resources and stuff 201 00:10:48,436 --> 00:10:51,356 Speaker 2: that was shallow and hot and highly productive. As we 202 00:10:51,396 --> 00:10:54,236 Speaker 2: tapped that and we tried to move to deeper resources 203 00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:56,356 Speaker 2: that maybe wouldn't flow as much or not be as hot, 204 00:10:56,916 --> 00:10:59,316 Speaker 2: the technology wasn't there to be able to still produce 205 00:10:59,356 --> 00:11:02,516 Speaker 2: that power and to do so economically, because drilling is 206 00:11:02,796 --> 00:11:04,956 Speaker 2: costs are very dependent by how deep you have to go. 207 00:11:05,756 --> 00:11:09,516 Speaker 2: And as we started tapping the shallow geothermal resources and 208 00:11:09,556 --> 00:11:11,796 Speaker 2: having to move on to the deep ones, the technology 209 00:11:11,796 --> 00:11:15,636 Speaker 2: couldn't keep up, and those deeper resources became uneconomics. So 210 00:11:15,716 --> 00:11:17,676 Speaker 2: the industry, at least in the United States kind of 211 00:11:17,676 --> 00:11:21,156 Speaker 2: stalled out. In the nineties, once these natural hotspots had 212 00:11:21,196 --> 00:11:24,996 Speaker 2: been tapped and really really had been a bit of 213 00:11:24,996 --> 00:11:26,636 Speaker 2: a period of stagnation ever since then. 214 00:11:27,076 --> 00:11:29,276 Speaker 1: And I understand that by the time you wanted to 215 00:11:29,316 --> 00:11:33,476 Speaker 1: start a company, you know, to make geothermal energy, harvest 216 00:11:33,516 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 1: geothermal energy, it was sort of out of fashion, right, 217 00:11:37,236 --> 00:11:39,156 Speaker 1: People had kind of given up. 218 00:11:39,716 --> 00:11:41,876 Speaker 2: It was very much out of fashion. And so early 219 00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:43,716 Speaker 2: on I was looking for funding. And I remember going 220 00:11:43,716 --> 00:11:47,916 Speaker 2: to an investor conference, an energy investor conference, and I 221 00:11:47,956 --> 00:11:49,596 Speaker 2: walked up to somebody that I knew was a big 222 00:11:49,596 --> 00:11:53,116 Speaker 2: investor in the space, and I introduced myself to him, 223 00:11:53,116 --> 00:11:55,636 Speaker 2: and this would have been about twenty seventeen, and I said, Hey, 224 00:11:55,676 --> 00:11:58,436 Speaker 2: I'm Tim. I'm working on Fervo Energy. It's a startup 225 00:11:58,436 --> 00:12:01,276 Speaker 2: I co founded that does geothermal energy. And he holds 226 00:12:01,276 --> 00:12:03,636 Speaker 2: his hand up and says, I'm going to stop you 227 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:06,436 Speaker 2: right there and save us both some time. I'm not 228 00:12:06,516 --> 00:12:10,236 Speaker 2: interested in geothermal energy. Thanks for the converse, and walked away. 229 00:12:12,156 --> 00:12:14,076 Speaker 2: And that was a lot of the sentiment around what, 230 00:12:14,356 --> 00:12:17,236 Speaker 2: you know, what what was the future for geothermal is is? 231 00:12:17,316 --> 00:12:18,876 Speaker 2: That was sort of the reaction that we got on 232 00:12:19,036 --> 00:12:21,356 Speaker 2: energy conferences. It was a bit of a bit of 233 00:12:21,356 --> 00:12:22,516 Speaker 2: a punchline. 234 00:12:22,636 --> 00:12:24,596 Speaker 1: Because people had tried it and it seemed like it 235 00:12:24,636 --> 00:12:30,796 Speaker 1: didn't work exactly. So how do you how do you 236 00:12:30,956 --> 00:12:33,156 Speaker 1: how do you get going in that environment? How do 237 00:12:33,156 --> 00:12:34,836 Speaker 1: you get from the guy putting his hand in your 238 00:12:34,836 --> 00:12:36,676 Speaker 1: face to actually building a company? 239 00:12:36,836 --> 00:12:39,756 Speaker 2: I realized that there was such a gap between how 240 00:12:39,836 --> 00:12:42,116 Speaker 2: quickly the technology for drilling had advanced an oil on 241 00:12:42,156 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 2: gas and what the geothermal industry was used to that 242 00:12:44,276 --> 00:12:47,236 Speaker 2: people just didn't know what the performance was really like. 243 00:12:47,316 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 2: And I remember having some very bizarre conversations where people 244 00:12:50,236 --> 00:12:53,436 Speaker 2: would tell me things like you can't drill horizontally, and 245 00:12:53,476 --> 00:12:56,636 Speaker 2: I'm like, I just got off a rig, you know, 246 00:12:56,636 --> 00:12:58,996 Speaker 2: a few weeks ago where that's what I was doing, 247 00:12:59,036 --> 00:13:00,956 Speaker 2: and we were doing it for the thousandth time, like, 248 00:13:01,396 --> 00:13:03,756 Speaker 2: and it was just amazing the gap and understanding of 249 00:13:03,756 --> 00:13:06,796 Speaker 2: technology there, and so I knew we were onto something. 250 00:13:07,196 --> 00:13:10,076 Speaker 1: Do you think part of that is like the culture gap? 251 00:13:10,316 --> 00:13:13,316 Speaker 1: I mean that even if the technical skills are kind 252 00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:17,436 Speaker 1: of overlapping, the culture gap between people who were fracking 253 00:13:17,476 --> 00:13:19,836 Speaker 1: on an oil rig in West Texas or whatever and 254 00:13:19,836 --> 00:13:21,876 Speaker 1: the people who are trying to geothermal start up in 255 00:13:21,956 --> 00:13:24,436 Speaker 1: Northern California, they're just not talking to each other, because 256 00:13:24,476 --> 00:13:25,956 Speaker 1: why would they No. 257 00:13:26,116 --> 00:13:28,516 Speaker 2: I think that's I think that I think there's a 258 00:13:28,516 --> 00:13:30,956 Speaker 2: lot of that. You know, one piece of advice I 259 00:13:30,996 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 2: got from a mentor early on who'd invested in a 260 00:13:34,276 --> 00:13:36,956 Speaker 2: bunch of different sectors is that if you want to 261 00:13:36,996 --> 00:13:38,596 Speaker 2: be the leader in a sector, you need to be 262 00:13:38,636 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 2: at the geographic center of where that sector works. You know, 263 00:13:41,476 --> 00:13:44,076 Speaker 2: if you're starting an AI company, you're probably going to 264 00:13:44,076 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 2: be really well served to be in the Bay Area. 265 00:13:46,196 --> 00:13:49,236 Speaker 2: If you're starting a medical device or pharmaceutical company, you're 266 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:51,356 Speaker 2: going to be well served to be in Boston. If 267 00:13:51,396 --> 00:13:54,716 Speaker 2: you're starting a drilling company, you should probably be in Houston. 268 00:13:55,356 --> 00:13:57,516 Speaker 2: And one of the things that I found is when 269 00:13:57,556 --> 00:14:01,956 Speaker 2: we started Fervo, there was zero geothermal companies in Houston. 270 00:14:01,996 --> 00:14:03,916 Speaker 2: They were all in places all over the world, but 271 00:14:04,116 --> 00:14:06,836 Speaker 2: in America they were not. None of them were close 272 00:14:06,916 --> 00:14:07,396 Speaker 2: to Houston. 273 00:14:07,556 --> 00:14:10,236 Speaker 1: And Houston is like the intellection rual center of this 274 00:14:11,276 --> 00:14:15,356 Speaker 1: shale fracking drilling revolution. Right, there's this incredible innovation coming 275 00:14:15,396 --> 00:14:17,116 Speaker 1: out of there. It is like the Bay Area for 276 00:14:17,156 --> 00:14:19,116 Speaker 1: AI or something exactly right. 277 00:14:19,196 --> 00:14:23,356 Speaker 2: All the big companies, all the big suppliers, some of 278 00:14:22,836 --> 00:14:26,436 Speaker 2: the best research institutions, whether you're talking about in Houston, 279 00:14:26,476 --> 00:14:29,076 Speaker 2: like the University of Houston or Rice, or in the 280 00:14:29,156 --> 00:14:31,436 Speaker 2: area like the University of Texas or Texas A and 281 00:14:31,556 --> 00:14:34,676 Speaker 2: M all kind of centered around this intellectual hub of 282 00:14:34,756 --> 00:14:39,236 Speaker 2: subsurface that is in Houston. And there was no geothermal 283 00:14:39,276 --> 00:14:42,436 Speaker 2: here and no geothermal presence here. And I think it 284 00:14:42,476 --> 00:14:44,396 Speaker 2: is Yeah, you could say it's cultural, but it's also 285 00:14:44,476 --> 00:14:47,956 Speaker 2: just geographical. There weren't the same number of water cooler 286 00:14:47,996 --> 00:14:50,356 Speaker 2: conversations or people bump into each other and in the 287 00:14:50,356 --> 00:14:54,516 Speaker 2: hallway in these other areas where that knowledge share can happen. 288 00:14:54,556 --> 00:14:57,836 Speaker 2: And so that was actually something being somebody from Houston 289 00:14:58,036 --> 00:14:59,756 Speaker 2: and I actually part of my journey. We did move 290 00:14:59,796 --> 00:15:02,196 Speaker 2: out to the Bay Area to start the company, and 291 00:15:02,556 --> 00:15:05,156 Speaker 2: that's where we founded the company, but always with a 292 00:15:05,276 --> 00:15:08,676 Speaker 2: lens of making Houston the headquarters because we wanted to 293 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:11,636 Speaker 2: be in and the center of that intellectual hub. 294 00:15:12,276 --> 00:15:13,916 Speaker 1: Well why start the company in the Bay Area? 295 00:15:13,956 --> 00:15:17,956 Speaker 2: Then, briefly, it's gets to an interesting question speaking about geography. 296 00:15:18,036 --> 00:15:21,436 Speaker 2: I mean the Bay areas where startups happen, you know, 297 00:15:21,636 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 2: And it sort of is interesting even to this day. 298 00:15:24,356 --> 00:15:27,556 Speaker 2: And Houston has an actually incredible and vibrant and growing 299 00:15:27,636 --> 00:15:29,476 Speaker 2: innovation ecosystem. 300 00:15:29,036 --> 00:15:31,756 Speaker 1: You need, like the hybrid DNA you need, the startup 301 00:15:31,876 --> 00:15:34,996 Speaker 1: DNA in the Bay Area, and the fracking DNA of Houston. 302 00:15:35,076 --> 00:15:36,476 Speaker 1: Basically you do. 303 00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:40,516 Speaker 2: That's part of the magic. And the amount of capital 304 00:15:40,756 --> 00:15:43,876 Speaker 2: available for people with wild ideas that could change the 305 00:15:43,916 --> 00:15:46,756 Speaker 2: world is still so concentrated in the Bay Area. 306 00:15:47,036 --> 00:15:49,036 Speaker 1: That's the It's like when they ask the guy, why 307 00:15:49,036 --> 00:15:50,676 Speaker 1: do you rob banks, and he said, that's where the 308 00:15:50,676 --> 00:15:53,716 Speaker 1: money is. That's why the Bay Area. That is exactly right, 309 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:57,196 Speaker 1: and that said, right now, where are you talking to 310 00:15:57,316 --> 00:15:57,756 Speaker 1: me from? 311 00:15:58,276 --> 00:16:01,236 Speaker 2: I'm in Houston, Texas net right now in twenty twenty 312 00:16:01,316 --> 00:16:04,316 Speaker 2: and our third year of existence as a company. We 313 00:16:04,396 --> 00:16:05,756 Speaker 2: still have an office in the Bay Area and a 314 00:16:05,836 --> 00:16:08,396 Speaker 2: lot of great people that work there. But we made 315 00:16:08,436 --> 00:16:10,356 Speaker 2: the decision that now it's time to scale up. Now 316 00:16:10,356 --> 00:16:12,796 Speaker 2: it's time to start drilling these wells. Now is the 317 00:16:12,836 --> 00:16:15,956 Speaker 2: time where it's most important that we're located here in Houston, 318 00:16:15,996 --> 00:16:19,396 Speaker 2: and so I relocated back here and our corporate headquarters 319 00:16:19,396 --> 00:16:20,196 Speaker 2: are here in Houston. 320 00:16:22,796 --> 00:16:25,476 Speaker 1: In a minute, Tim and his company build a real 321 00:16:25,756 --> 00:16:38,676 Speaker 1: geothermal power corner. So where are you now? I mean, 322 00:16:38,676 --> 00:16:41,916 Speaker 1: you have this thesis several years ago, which is basically 323 00:16:42,756 --> 00:16:45,836 Speaker 1: if we bring the technology from the shale boom, if 324 00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:48,556 Speaker 1: you're fracking technology to bear on geothermal, we can make 325 00:16:48,596 --> 00:16:48,996 Speaker 1: it work. 326 00:16:49,636 --> 00:16:53,276 Speaker 2: Where are you now, Yeah, we're making it work. That's 327 00:16:53,276 --> 00:16:57,036 Speaker 2: where we are now. So in twenty twenty two, we 328 00:16:57,196 --> 00:16:59,876 Speaker 2: drilled three wells at a site in northern Nevada as 329 00:16:59,916 --> 00:17:02,196 Speaker 2: part of a development agreement with Google Google pay It 330 00:17:02,276 --> 00:17:04,996 Speaker 2: played a major catalytic role in this. Google is one 331 00:17:05,036 --> 00:17:07,916 Speaker 2: of the first people to bring up an awareness of 332 00:17:07,956 --> 00:17:11,756 Speaker 2: something that is a recognition in the market that's benefitted 333 00:17:11,836 --> 00:17:14,596 Speaker 2: Fervo a lot, which is that solar and wind are 334 00:17:14,636 --> 00:17:17,996 Speaker 2: going to be the workhorses of a decarbonized electric cred 335 00:17:18,076 --> 00:17:20,156 Speaker 2: but cannot do the job all on their own, and 336 00:17:20,236 --> 00:17:23,276 Speaker 2: we need a complementary resource like geothermal that can work 337 00:17:23,316 --> 00:17:25,996 Speaker 2: twenty four to seven to complement wind and solar so 338 00:17:25,996 --> 00:17:28,636 Speaker 2: we can get all the way to decarbonized electric cred. 339 00:17:29,036 --> 00:17:30,716 Speaker 2: And I think the exciting thing for us as a 340 00:17:30,756 --> 00:17:34,076 Speaker 2: company is we began that project in twenty twenty two. 341 00:17:34,236 --> 00:17:37,796 Speaker 2: We published results from a very successful test phase of 342 00:17:37,796 --> 00:17:42,876 Speaker 2: that project a just over the summer, and after the 343 00:17:42,916 --> 00:17:45,236 Speaker 2: results of that test phase, we move forward with commissioning 344 00:17:45,236 --> 00:17:48,436 Speaker 2: that project and that product is now producing electricity. We've 345 00:17:48,476 --> 00:17:50,916 Speaker 2: now just finished and brought onto the Electric cred our 346 00:17:51,036 --> 00:17:55,476 Speaker 2: very first ever electricity producing project using advanced geothermal technology. 347 00:17:55,996 --> 00:18:00,036 Speaker 1: Great, so you have this project in Nevada that just 348 00:18:01,236 --> 00:18:05,676 Speaker 1: turned on, just started producing real electricity for real people 349 00:18:06,796 --> 00:18:10,636 Speaker 1: in the last few months. Right, Yes, how does it work? Like, 350 00:18:10,796 --> 00:18:12,556 Speaker 1: just tell me what's going on there? How's it work? 351 00:18:13,476 --> 00:18:17,476 Speaker 2: Yeah? So the way our kind of geothermal works. And 352 00:18:17,516 --> 00:18:21,276 Speaker 2: again I told you earlier that we had the tech 353 00:18:21,316 --> 00:18:25,156 Speaker 2: fifty years ago to do these perfect shallow hot productive resources, 354 00:18:25,476 --> 00:18:27,956 Speaker 2: but it's always been a struggle to make the other deeper, 355 00:18:28,076 --> 00:18:29,556 Speaker 2: less productive resources work. 356 00:18:29,756 --> 00:18:32,436 Speaker 1: Most of the world, the vast majority. 357 00:18:31,956 --> 00:18:35,196 Speaker 2: Of the most of the world, every place that's not Iceland, basically. 358 00:18:36,996 --> 00:18:39,516 Speaker 2: And so what we do differently is we drill our 359 00:18:39,556 --> 00:18:42,196 Speaker 2: wells deeper, for one. And then when we drill these 360 00:18:42,196 --> 00:18:44,836 Speaker 2: wells deeper, not only do we drill them down vertically, 361 00:18:44,836 --> 00:18:46,836 Speaker 2: but we then drill them horizontally as well. So to 362 00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:50,876 Speaker 2: give you some depths to think about the project that 363 00:18:50,916 --> 00:18:53,316 Speaker 2: we did in Nevada, we drilled that well eight thousand 364 00:18:53,356 --> 00:18:56,636 Speaker 2: feet straight down and then four thousand feet horizontally. 365 00:18:56,996 --> 00:18:59,956 Speaker 1: Wow, so like a mile and a half down and 366 00:19:00,516 --> 00:19:04,156 Speaker 1: almost a mile over, So like an L. I should 367 00:19:04,156 --> 00:19:05,436 Speaker 1: be thinking of a capital L. 368 00:19:06,116 --> 00:19:09,396 Speaker 2: Yes, a giant capital L. And then we but a 369 00:19:09,396 --> 00:19:12,236 Speaker 2: second giant capital L right next to it in parallel. 370 00:19:12,276 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 2: So a few hundred feet away is another well that's 371 00:19:15,076 --> 00:19:16,276 Speaker 2: as deep in parallel. 372 00:19:16,636 --> 00:19:20,036 Speaker 1: Two l's running parallel giant under the. 373 00:19:19,996 --> 00:19:23,796 Speaker 2: Two big pipes in the ground. Exactly how big the 374 00:19:23,836 --> 00:19:26,596 Speaker 2: pipes themselves are seven inches across. 375 00:19:26,756 --> 00:19:29,796 Speaker 1: Not big long, but narrow long. 376 00:19:29,596 --> 00:19:31,556 Speaker 2: But narrow that I think about them like really big 377 00:19:31,596 --> 00:19:33,156 Speaker 2: pipes that we've stuck into the ground. 378 00:19:33,876 --> 00:19:38,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, and it's just rock all the way through there. 379 00:19:38,516 --> 00:19:40,956 Speaker 1: You're just going down and over in the rock. 380 00:19:41,076 --> 00:19:44,196 Speaker 2: It's rock all the way through there. And importantly for us, 381 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:45,436 Speaker 2: it's hot rock. 382 00:19:46,196 --> 00:19:49,356 Speaker 1: Okay, yes, hot, right, that's the key, both geo and thermal. 383 00:19:49,756 --> 00:19:50,796 Speaker 1: Then what happens? 384 00:19:51,276 --> 00:19:53,036 Speaker 2: Okay, so let me tell you how this works. Now, 385 00:19:53,036 --> 00:19:55,476 Speaker 2: we just have the pipes in place, and the pipes 386 00:19:55,516 --> 00:19:57,996 Speaker 2: go through the rock. And what we end up doing 387 00:19:58,116 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 2: to create the geothermal electricity, you know, because those rocks 388 00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:02,876 Speaker 2: are hot, but the he just won't move on its own. 389 00:20:03,156 --> 00:20:05,196 Speaker 2: What we do is we actually pump cold water down 390 00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:07,716 Speaker 2: the injection well, and then that injection well has about 391 00:20:07,716 --> 00:20:10,596 Speaker 2: one hundred different ports in that water can flow out 392 00:20:10,836 --> 00:20:14,116 Speaker 2: and it flows across the rock over to the production well. 393 00:20:14,476 --> 00:20:17,996 Speaker 1: They're like holes in the side of the pipe basically yep, yeah, 394 00:20:18,036 --> 00:20:19,556 Speaker 1: and the water goes out of the pipe. Now in 395 00:20:19,556 --> 00:20:22,716 Speaker 1: my mind, it's just rock down there. Yeah, So like 396 00:20:22,916 --> 00:20:26,436 Speaker 1: what happens? What, like what's going on there? Yeah? 397 00:20:26,476 --> 00:20:28,676 Speaker 2: Water can always flow through rock. I mean, this is 398 00:20:28,716 --> 00:20:31,036 Speaker 2: the same way that oil is produced or water wells work. 399 00:20:31,076 --> 00:20:33,756 Speaker 2: Water can always flow through rock. In our case is 400 00:20:33,836 --> 00:20:37,716 Speaker 2: we have actually created these fractures that go from one 401 00:20:37,756 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 2: well to the other. So think about these giant cracks 402 00:20:40,676 --> 00:20:43,196 Speaker 2: in the rock that now that water flows through. So 403 00:20:43,236 --> 00:20:46,516 Speaker 2: it connects the injection well to the production well and 404 00:20:46,796 --> 00:20:50,436 Speaker 2: its own isolated system. So it goes out the ports, 405 00:20:50,556 --> 00:20:54,036 Speaker 2: flows through the rock hundreds of feet and in that 406 00:20:54,156 --> 00:20:56,556 Speaker 2: hundreds of feet it heats up and the wells. We're 407 00:20:56,556 --> 00:20:59,236 Speaker 2: doing it around four hundred degrees fahrenheit, So by the 408 00:20:59,276 --> 00:21:02,356 Speaker 2: time that cold water reaches the other well, it's already 409 00:21:02,356 --> 00:21:04,916 Speaker 2: heated up to about four hundred degrees fahrenheit. Even though 410 00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:07,396 Speaker 2: it's four hundred degrees fahrenheit, we actually produce it still 411 00:21:07,396 --> 00:21:08,676 Speaker 2: in a water in a liquid phase. 412 00:21:08,716 --> 00:21:10,996 Speaker 1: Wo, So it's highly pressure as water that can be 413 00:21:11,036 --> 00:21:12,556 Speaker 1: four hundred degrees and not yet. 414 00:21:12,396 --> 00:21:16,516 Speaker 2: Steam exactly, and so then it gets to the surface 415 00:21:16,796 --> 00:21:19,036 Speaker 2: it's hot water. And then what we do is we 416 00:21:19,076 --> 00:21:22,836 Speaker 2: actually can pump that water over to the electric the 417 00:21:23,236 --> 00:21:26,316 Speaker 2: power plant that we have at this site, and then 418 00:21:26,436 --> 00:21:28,396 Speaker 2: we take the water and we run it through a 419 00:21:28,436 --> 00:21:32,316 Speaker 2: heat exchanger, so that heat then goes into the power cycle, 420 00:21:32,916 --> 00:21:35,236 Speaker 2: and then we collect the cold water after it's giving 421 00:21:35,316 --> 00:21:37,396 Speaker 2: up all of its heat again and pump it right 422 00:21:37,436 --> 00:21:39,716 Speaker 2: back down the injection well. So all we're doing is 423 00:21:39,716 --> 00:21:42,956 Speaker 2: circulate in the same water over and over and over again. 424 00:21:42,996 --> 00:21:46,316 Speaker 2: In the system. It goes down cold, heats up in 425 00:21:46,356 --> 00:21:50,596 Speaker 2: the rock, comes up hot. We then gather that heat 426 00:21:50,596 --> 00:21:53,036 Speaker 2: at the surface to create electricity, and then we pump 427 00:21:53,036 --> 00:21:54,676 Speaker 2: the cold water back again, and we do that for 428 00:21:54,676 --> 00:21:57,236 Speaker 2: decades and decades and decades. And the key here is 429 00:21:57,236 --> 00:22:00,116 Speaker 2: we're getting this heat not by burning something, not by 430 00:22:00,116 --> 00:22:02,836 Speaker 2: burning natural gas or coal, but by the natural heat 431 00:22:02,836 --> 00:22:05,596 Speaker 2: of the earth itself. And so it's a zero emission technology. 432 00:22:05,956 --> 00:22:09,556 Speaker 1: Great, and you have a sort of small version working 433 00:22:09,636 --> 00:22:10,196 Speaker 1: now right. 434 00:22:10,756 --> 00:22:13,796 Speaker 2: It's on the order of around two to three megawatts 435 00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:16,916 Speaker 2: of production, and so it's not big when it comes 436 00:22:16,916 --> 00:22:19,836 Speaker 2: to power infrastructure. But that's still enough electricity to power 437 00:22:20,116 --> 00:22:24,356 Speaker 2: several thousand homes worth of electricity generation. But it really 438 00:22:24,396 --> 00:22:27,596 Speaker 2: is just the beginning of what we are planning to 439 00:22:27,636 --> 00:22:30,196 Speaker 2: do as we scale this technology. 440 00:22:31,196 --> 00:22:35,196 Speaker 1: So if that's the beginning, what's the middle This summer? 441 00:22:35,236 --> 00:22:38,556 Speaker 2: Actually, after we had these really successful results from our 442 00:22:38,596 --> 00:22:42,316 Speaker 2: first ever pilot, we move forward to a site in 443 00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:46,276 Speaker 2: southwest Utah and we broke the ground on our next project, 444 00:22:46,396 --> 00:22:49,076 Speaker 2: which is going to be roughly one hundred times bigger 445 00:22:49,076 --> 00:22:50,236 Speaker 2: than our first project. 446 00:22:50,436 --> 00:22:53,596 Speaker 1: So how do you increase the power output by one 447 00:22:53,636 --> 00:22:55,716 Speaker 1: hundred x? What do you got to do to do that? 448 00:22:56,516 --> 00:22:58,916 Speaker 2: We drill more wells. Well one thing. The wells that 449 00:22:58,956 --> 00:23:02,156 Speaker 2: we're going to drill now are going to be bigger, 450 00:23:02,436 --> 00:23:04,516 Speaker 2: for one, and so we're going to get actually more 451 00:23:04,556 --> 00:23:06,796 Speaker 2: power output for every well that we drill, and then 452 00:23:06,796 --> 00:23:09,036 Speaker 2: we're going to drill more of them. And I tell 453 00:23:09,036 --> 00:23:11,196 Speaker 2: you one thing that's exciting about this in terms of 454 00:23:11,916 --> 00:23:15,276 Speaker 2: again a sustainability standpoint, one of the really attractive things 455 00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:18,676 Speaker 2: about geothermal power is the actual land you need to 456 00:23:18,676 --> 00:23:20,676 Speaker 2: do it is very minimal compared to almost any other 457 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:21,796 Speaker 2: type of energy resource. 458 00:23:22,156 --> 00:23:24,316 Speaker 1: It's a low footprint on the ground, but a big 459 00:23:24,396 --> 00:23:26,716 Speaker 1: footprint under the ground exactly. 460 00:23:26,836 --> 00:23:28,676 Speaker 2: So it's a very you know, you can be at 461 00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:31,836 Speaker 2: a very small pad that's only a few acres, but 462 00:23:31,916 --> 00:23:35,236 Speaker 2: then underneath you are can be dozens of wells that extend, 463 00:23:35,716 --> 00:23:37,156 Speaker 2: you know, across miles and miles. 464 00:23:38,236 --> 00:23:40,476 Speaker 1: What are you worried about in that next project? 465 00:23:41,716 --> 00:23:45,756 Speaker 2: What are we worried about? You know, it's interesting, I'd 466 00:23:45,756 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 2: say the first thing is policy support. You know, geothermal, 467 00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:51,876 Speaker 2: as you noted when you were asking me how it 468 00:23:51,876 --> 00:23:54,836 Speaker 2: works earlier, nobody knows about it. Nobody knows how it works. 469 00:23:54,876 --> 00:23:57,716 Speaker 2: Before I read some random paper ten years ago, I 470 00:23:57,716 --> 00:24:00,476 Speaker 2: didn't know about it. And as a result, it's sort 471 00:24:00,516 --> 00:24:02,356 Speaker 2: of this forgotten renewable and we end up in a 472 00:24:02,396 --> 00:24:05,476 Speaker 2: situation where again and again it gets left out of 473 00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:09,116 Speaker 2: the same incentive schemes and government grants and supportive policy 474 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:13,836 Speaker 2: that almost any other energy resource you have. We're structuring 475 00:24:13,876 --> 00:24:17,196 Speaker 2: to compete with technologies that get significantly more government funding 476 00:24:17,196 --> 00:24:18,036 Speaker 2: and policy support. 477 00:24:18,396 --> 00:24:22,116 Speaker 1: Tell me about price, Like this project you're working on 478 00:24:22,156 --> 00:24:24,996 Speaker 1: in Utah, Like what's it going to cost to get 479 00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:28,236 Speaker 1: electricity out of that project? And how does that compare 480 00:24:28,276 --> 00:24:30,276 Speaker 1: to other sources? Of electricity. 481 00:24:30,556 --> 00:24:34,956 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll end up investing well over a billion 482 00:24:34,996 --> 00:24:37,876 Speaker 2: dollars in this project in southwest Utah. But it's a 483 00:24:37,956 --> 00:24:43,036 Speaker 2: very sizable project. It's four hundred megawatts from a price standpoint. 484 00:24:43,436 --> 00:24:46,756 Speaker 2: It's really interesting to think about the electric grid because 485 00:24:46,956 --> 00:24:50,236 Speaker 2: everyone always thinks about the electric grid. Is electricity, it's 486 00:24:50,236 --> 00:24:53,516 Speaker 2: a commodity. Well it sort of isn't It isn't. The 487 00:24:53,596 --> 00:24:57,596 Speaker 2: thing about electricity is that when people want electricity, they 488 00:24:57,596 --> 00:25:01,796 Speaker 2: want it now, right, and so the reliability is incredibly 489 00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:05,076 Speaker 2: important for electricity. So it's one thing to produce electricity, 490 00:25:05,436 --> 00:25:08,556 Speaker 2: it's an entirely different thing to produce electricity when it's needed. 491 00:25:09,156 --> 00:25:14,916 Speaker 2: So whenever you look at how utilities construct portfolios, they 492 00:25:14,956 --> 00:25:17,356 Speaker 2: find that you know, of course you want solar, and 493 00:25:17,356 --> 00:25:18,876 Speaker 2: of course you want wind, and of course you want 494 00:25:18,876 --> 00:25:21,716 Speaker 2: batteries because those are very low cost resources. But you 495 00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:25,596 Speaker 2: also need stuff that works when those resources don't, and 496 00:25:25,716 --> 00:25:29,836 Speaker 2: historically in this country that has been coal or natural gas. Increasingly, 497 00:25:29,916 --> 00:25:32,356 Speaker 2: less coal and more natural gas. But if you want 498 00:25:32,356 --> 00:25:34,556 Speaker 2: to do it both keep the lights on and do 499 00:25:34,636 --> 00:25:36,556 Speaker 2: it in a sustainable and carbon free way, we need 500 00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:39,116 Speaker 2: to find a substitute for that natural gas part of 501 00:25:39,116 --> 00:25:41,516 Speaker 2: the portfolio as well. And so all this to say, 502 00:25:41,556 --> 00:25:44,836 Speaker 2: whenever you look at a portfolio approach, geo thermal offers 503 00:25:44,876 --> 00:25:47,876 Speaker 2: things that other energy resources don't. It's always there when 504 00:25:47,876 --> 00:25:50,516 Speaker 2: you need it, and it doesn't produce carbon emissions. 505 00:25:51,116 --> 00:25:54,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I feel like you're telling me it's more expensive, 506 00:25:54,676 --> 00:25:57,036 Speaker 1: but you can use it when it's dark out and 507 00:25:57,076 --> 00:25:58,916 Speaker 1: the wind isn't blowing. Is that what you're saying. 508 00:25:58,996 --> 00:26:01,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say that's right. And what you find 509 00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:03,916 Speaker 2: is that a little bit of what we sell. You know, 510 00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:07,356 Speaker 2: if you are trying to figure out for your business, 511 00:26:07,436 --> 00:26:09,876 Speaker 2: or for your city, or for your utility, you know 512 00:26:09,916 --> 00:26:12,316 Speaker 2: what's the least cost way to provide electricity. It turns 513 00:26:12,356 --> 00:26:15,996 Speaker 2: out buying twenty percent of your electricity from US, even 514 00:26:15,996 --> 00:26:18,636 Speaker 2: at a premium price, ends up allowing you to have 515 00:26:18,636 --> 00:26:21,876 Speaker 2: a much lower overall cost because it provides these really 516 00:26:22,036 --> 00:26:24,036 Speaker 2: high valuable attributes to the grid. 517 00:26:24,036 --> 00:26:25,916 Speaker 1: And you don't have to have like a gas peaker 518 00:26:25,996 --> 00:26:29,596 Speaker 1: plant that you build and only use a few hours 519 00:26:29,596 --> 00:26:30,476 Speaker 1: a year or whatever. 520 00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:33,996 Speaker 2: Exactly exactly what else. 521 00:26:33,836 --> 00:26:36,796 Speaker 1: You worried about. You're about to build a billion dollar plant. 522 00:26:36,836 --> 00:26:40,076 Speaker 1: Surely your worries cannot solely be outward facing. 523 00:26:40,676 --> 00:26:42,556 Speaker 2: So we always joke about the fact that we really 524 00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:45,796 Speaker 2: smashed two types of companies together. We're and so we 525 00:26:45,876 --> 00:26:48,276 Speaker 2: hire a lot of people from renewable energy developers, and 526 00:26:48,316 --> 00:26:49,916 Speaker 2: we hire a lot of people from oil on gas, 527 00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:53,356 Speaker 2: and we smash us together in one big company to 528 00:26:53,396 --> 00:26:54,436 Speaker 2: execute these goals. 529 00:26:54,556 --> 00:26:57,796 Speaker 1: It's like the hippies and the roughnecks basically, that's right. 530 00:26:57,876 --> 00:26:59,796 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what that's Yeah, you could you could say 531 00:26:59,836 --> 00:27:02,156 Speaker 2: that maybe that'll be our next like holiday party theme. 532 00:27:02,076 --> 00:27:03,516 Speaker 1: Or something like that. I like it. 533 00:27:03,596 --> 00:27:05,596 Speaker 2: I like it, the hippies and the roughnecks, and we 534 00:27:05,636 --> 00:27:07,396 Speaker 2: try to make it work. But the reason I say 535 00:27:07,436 --> 00:27:09,996 Speaker 2: this is, yeah, we're about to we're in the process 536 00:27:09,996 --> 00:27:13,236 Speaker 2: of doing a billion dollar plus project. But the nice 537 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:15,076 Speaker 2: thing is that everybody that we've hired to work on 538 00:27:15,116 --> 00:27:17,516 Speaker 2: our team has done projects of that size and scale before. 539 00:27:18,116 --> 00:27:21,196 Speaker 1: When you're going to turn on this big plant in Utah. 540 00:27:20,996 --> 00:27:23,716 Speaker 2: Twenty twenty six is the first time we'll be making 541 00:27:23,716 --> 00:27:26,516 Speaker 2: electricity from this facility. So it's going to come online 542 00:27:26,516 --> 00:27:28,836 Speaker 2: in a few phases. That full four hundred megawatts will 543 00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:33,236 Speaker 2: be done by twenty twenty eight. We'll be producing our 544 00:27:33,276 --> 00:27:36,236 Speaker 2: first electricity there. Really in just a couple of years. 545 00:27:36,836 --> 00:27:39,156 Speaker 2: Looking at the date now, I guess it's almost twenty 546 00:27:39,196 --> 00:27:41,556 Speaker 2: twenty four already, which I find hard to believe. So 547 00:27:42,156 --> 00:27:44,316 Speaker 2: just around the corner, twenty twenty six, we'll be making 548 00:27:44,316 --> 00:27:47,436 Speaker 2: first electricity from our facility in Utah. 549 00:27:48,596 --> 00:27:50,716 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 550 00:28:01,996 --> 00:28:03,396 Speaker 1: I want to finish with the lightning round. 551 00:28:03,676 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 2: Okay. 552 00:28:04,876 --> 00:28:06,956 Speaker 1: What's the best thing about working on an oil rig. 553 00:28:08,596 --> 00:28:13,676 Speaker 2: There's no substitute to actually physically seeing your progress when 554 00:28:13,716 --> 00:28:15,716 Speaker 2: you work. You know, I grew up in the countryside 555 00:28:15,796 --> 00:28:18,276 Speaker 2: and we would farm, and I worked on a rig 556 00:28:18,316 --> 00:28:19,996 Speaker 2: and we do things, and I can tell you it's 557 00:28:20,316 --> 00:28:23,276 Speaker 2: a little funny sometimes to do work and just have 558 00:28:23,356 --> 00:28:25,556 Speaker 2: like a PowerPoint presentation and email at the end of 559 00:28:25,556 --> 00:28:26,956 Speaker 2: the day to show it, and you know there's things 560 00:28:26,996 --> 00:28:28,996 Speaker 2: going on out there, but you can't see it. To 561 00:28:29,036 --> 00:28:30,876 Speaker 2: be able to start your shift and say, you know, 562 00:28:30,956 --> 00:28:33,036 Speaker 2: when I started, we were seven thousand feet deep, and 563 00:28:33,036 --> 00:28:35,756 Speaker 2: when I got off shift, we were eight thousand feet deep, 564 00:28:35,796 --> 00:28:38,156 Speaker 2: and I can see the difference that we've made is 565 00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:40,996 Speaker 2: something that like, you know, that's that's a really nice 566 00:28:41,596 --> 00:28:44,836 Speaker 2: tangible thing about the work that I always appreciated. 567 00:28:45,276 --> 00:28:47,476 Speaker 1: What's the worst thing about working on an oil rig. 568 00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:50,156 Speaker 2: It's hard to be away from home. You know. You 569 00:28:50,196 --> 00:28:54,636 Speaker 2: spend weeks out there sometimes without without coming home, and 570 00:28:54,716 --> 00:28:57,356 Speaker 2: you end up building a great community of people that 571 00:28:57,396 --> 00:29:00,076 Speaker 2: you work with, your co workers. But you know, there's 572 00:29:00,116 --> 00:29:02,996 Speaker 2: no substitute for seeing your friends and family and sleeping 573 00:29:02,996 --> 00:29:04,156 Speaker 2: in your whole, in your own bed. 574 00:29:05,876 --> 00:29:08,596 Speaker 1: When I typed Fervo into my phone, I was just 575 00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:10,876 Speaker 1: like making some notes when I was preparing for this interview. 576 00:29:11,396 --> 00:29:15,116 Speaker 1: It auto corrected it to Gerbo. You have an idea, 577 00:29:15,116 --> 00:29:16,796 Speaker 1: what's going on with that? What is Gerbo? 578 00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:19,596 Speaker 2: I don't know about Gerbo. I can tell you Fervo. 579 00:29:19,796 --> 00:29:22,236 Speaker 2: We picked the name because it's a It's a word 580 00:29:22,356 --> 00:29:26,156 Speaker 2: that means energetic and boiling, which is kind of what's 581 00:29:26,236 --> 00:29:29,356 Speaker 2: our what our business is in what language? All of 582 00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:31,436 Speaker 2: them really any Romance language. 583 00:29:31,236 --> 00:29:33,836 Speaker 1: So it's like fervent. Does the word fervent come. 584 00:29:33,716 --> 00:29:36,116 Speaker 2: From the same exactly, fervent. We're in the business and 585 00:29:36,196 --> 00:29:38,596 Speaker 2: making steam, so our name is steam. 586 00:29:38,956 --> 00:29:41,796 Speaker 1: If you were not working on geothermal energy, what would 587 00:29:41,796 --> 00:29:42,436 Speaker 1: you be working on? 588 00:29:44,396 --> 00:29:51,436 Speaker 2: Good question. I am obsessive about urban design and transportation. 589 00:29:51,676 --> 00:29:53,916 Speaker 2: I think you start working in energy, then you start 590 00:29:53,956 --> 00:29:57,436 Speaker 2: working in climate and it becomes a foray to thinking, Wow, 591 00:29:57,516 --> 00:30:00,476 Speaker 2: what we could design our cities so much better in 592 00:30:00,516 --> 00:30:02,756 Speaker 2: a way that would be more sustainable and fun and 593 00:30:02,756 --> 00:30:05,596 Speaker 2: and uh, you know, even though I live in Houston, Texas, 594 00:30:05,596 --> 00:30:09,436 Speaker 2: which is famous for our driving, I bike to work 595 00:30:09,476 --> 00:30:11,516 Speaker 2: every day. I live right by our light rail line, 596 00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:14,996 Speaker 2: and I'm just obsessed with ways we can design our 597 00:30:15,036 --> 00:30:17,636 Speaker 2: cities better. And if I wasn't doing for oh, I'd 598 00:30:17,676 --> 00:30:18,476 Speaker 2: probably be doing that. 599 00:30:19,076 --> 00:30:24,116 Speaker 1: Okay, last one, what's one thing you understand about geology 600 00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:27,756 Speaker 1: about the Earth that most people don't? Oh? 601 00:30:29,676 --> 00:30:32,716 Speaker 2: Ah, can I half answer your question? 602 00:30:32,956 --> 00:30:34,436 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, anything you want. 603 00:30:35,156 --> 00:30:37,636 Speaker 2: So here's a question. Here's the thing about geology not 604 00:30:37,756 --> 00:30:43,156 Speaker 2: on the Earth that I've become obsessed with. Fascinating project 605 00:30:43,236 --> 00:30:47,116 Speaker 2: that NASA ran a couple of years ago where they 606 00:30:47,156 --> 00:30:51,436 Speaker 2: actually drilled into Mars and installed a seismometer in Mars, 607 00:30:52,156 --> 00:30:55,876 Speaker 2: and as a result, we know way more about Mars 608 00:30:55,956 --> 00:30:58,196 Speaker 2: geology than we did a couple of years ago, and 609 00:30:58,236 --> 00:31:01,516 Speaker 2: they detected regular and frequent Mars quakes there, which were 610 00:31:01,556 --> 00:31:04,796 Speaker 2: totally unexpected. And so just in the last couple of years, 611 00:31:05,476 --> 00:31:11,196 Speaker 2: we've completely rethought our understanding of Mars geology, and it 612 00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:14,996 Speaker 2: seems to be much more geologically active than we thought 613 00:31:15,196 --> 00:31:18,276 Speaker 2: even two or three years ago, and I don't know, 614 00:31:18,316 --> 00:31:20,436 Speaker 2: maybe to make a bit of a business proposition for it. 615 00:31:20,796 --> 00:31:23,636 Speaker 2: Geologically active means that it probably has a higher thermal 616 00:31:23,636 --> 00:31:26,996 Speaker 2: gradient than we've anticipated. So my team always has to 617 00:31:27,036 --> 00:31:29,276 Speaker 2: remind me to focus on Earth first. But it's a 618 00:31:29,316 --> 00:31:32,596 Speaker 2: funny thing to think about. You know, if we ever 619 00:31:32,676 --> 00:31:35,276 Speaker 2: make it to Mars, geothermal might be the way to 620 00:31:35,796 --> 00:31:37,956 Speaker 2: be the way to make our power workout there. 621 00:31:38,516 --> 00:31:42,196 Speaker 1: I love it. I love the fifty year vision. Well, 622 00:31:42,316 --> 00:31:44,356 Speaker 1: it's great to talk with you. Thank you for your time. 623 00:31:45,116 --> 00:31:47,476 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. I appreciate the invitation. 624 00:31:49,316 --> 00:31:53,196 Speaker 1: Jim Latimer is the co founder and CEO of Fervo Energy. 625 00:31:53,956 --> 00:31:57,876 Speaker 1: Today's show was produced by Joey Fishground and Edith Russilo. 626 00:31:58,396 --> 00:32:02,996 Speaker 1: It was edited by Karen Chakerji and engineered by Sarah Bruguier. 627 00:32:03,796 --> 00:32:07,196 Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM. 628 00:32:07,676 --> 00:32:10,076 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with 629 00:32:10,116 --> 00:32:16,436 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem. Mhm mm hmm.