1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: This is a me eat podcast coming in you shirtless 2 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:18,319 Speaker 1: severely vote bitten in my case underwear lessening podcast. You 3 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: can't predict anything, um me and the lavin ego. Here 4 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: did a little duck hunt in this morning? Is that 5 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: make you jealous? Christum browse? It does? It does? I 6 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: did a little driving this morning, did you? We're all 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: enjoying the wilds uh do, Christie Wound? If you run 8 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: through a couple of news points, love issues, let's do introductions. 9 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: I'll introduce you. Okay, sounds good? Uh. Author, I don't 10 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: get to say this very often. Author and poet Julia 11 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: Husain had books of poetry. Come on, don't start with that. 12 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: You don't believe me kidding? He had, He had multiple 13 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: works of poetry and one of the Iraq War was 14 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: going on. I would often catch myself saying, um, the 15 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: novelist and poet Saddam Hussein because he had published novels 16 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: and published books of poetry similar Similar to Saddam, krist 17 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: Dombrowski has, No, you don't have any novels, novels, not 18 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: yet books of poetry. I think that you're probably the 19 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: first poet, the first actual real live publishing poet that 20 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: we had on the show. That's fantastic, But I mean 21 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: the only three of you. Harrison's dead, right, that's true, 22 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 1: that's true. It was his birthday yesterday, by the way. 23 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: Oh it was. Yeah. Chris used used to guide, used 24 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: to you were like a guide for Jim Harris. Yeah, 25 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: I wrote Jim down the river. Guiding is probably a 26 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: you know, not quite an accurate an exchange of money. No, No, 27 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: you guys are just hanging out and and every time 28 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: I would you have an idea, he would say, go 29 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: to the other bank, you know. So if anything he 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: was he was guiding, but not rowing. So you were 31 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: just like a facilitator, facilitator, a wine opener, dispenser of 32 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: chicken thighs like you got a lot of you know, 33 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: as a guide, right, you've seen the thousand people cast? Right? 34 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: Is he a good fisherman? He was an exceptionally good caster. Absolutely. 35 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: I remember being so thrilled when the first time I 36 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: saw him cast, and I've realized that he could actually cast. 37 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: You know, because I grew up in Michigan. I worked 38 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: for this, as did he, as did he, as did you, 39 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: as it as did uh so many Michian Tannins. But um, 40 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: you know, I can remember I worked at this lodge 41 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: up in Grailing as a kid, and the experts, the 42 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: so called experts would come through and you'd always be 43 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 1: so disappointed when you actually saw him cast. You know, 44 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: they were so bad compared to you know, your buddies whatnot. 45 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 1: So the first time I said, Jim Cass, I thought 46 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: I was I was, well, yeah it was. That is 47 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: a relief as a guide when you see h the 48 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: client cast and they're good and you've never seen it before. 49 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: It's definitely just like yeah, But then you hope that 50 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: that doesn't come with some real she expectations. It usually 51 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: reverses the karma, right, you know, yeah, if you're if 52 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: you if you're telling me that you're Mike's two fingers 53 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: off your lip. Yeah, he's got really big hands. April 54 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: fulkey are you are you? Are you familiar with Have 55 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: you ever met Chris before? No, we haven't met. We 56 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 1: met about five minutes ago. Okay, had you had any when? Uh? 57 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: Had you seen his book around? I saw this afternoon. Sorry, Chris, 58 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: but I'm excited to learn more about it. We sprang 59 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: this on April. We didn't give April the long lead time. Well, 60 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: in order to go read up on on body of Water. 61 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: Ryan actually sprung it on me last night because I 62 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: I was podcasting Ryan this morning or this afternoon, and 63 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: I still see you tomorrow. He goes, oh, yeah, for 64 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: the Chris podcast, and I went, who what? So, but 65 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 1: what a pleasure. I'm I'm thrilled to be here. I'm 66 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: glad share professional connections though because of the whole you know, 67 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: fishing world. Are you guide still? I still got about 68 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: eighty days a year? Yeah, I've count that. It's still 69 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: being a guy. Dude. We have at this table right 70 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: now are four people who have at some point in 71 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: their life done professional been professional fly fishing guides? Are 72 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: you the only one who hasn't? I'm the one that hasn't, 73 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: the smart one with so that meaning there's four people 74 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: at this table who horror themselves out and one who hasn't. 75 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: Open that the driven snow. I think it's real good 76 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: for recruitment purposes that you never guided anybody. Uh. That's 77 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 1: the voice of Ryan Callahan who's also here, and then um, 78 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: then Yannimani, Hello, So we talked about that. I was 79 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: asking you a couple of news items. Yeah, um, a dude, Okay, 80 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: a guy in Alaska. Check this out. A guy in Alaska. Uh, 81 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: just got jail time in a one hundred thousand dollar 82 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: fine for poaching some moose. Man, those guys do not 83 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: mess around in Alaska. What do you mean some moose? 84 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: Because he killed three He killed and ditched three moose. 85 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: Here's what they think. Okay, we talked without four like 86 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: in Alaska. Depending on where you are, there's always exceptions, 87 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: but generally, like generally for a bull moves to be 88 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 1: legal in Alaska has to be either depending where you are, 89 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: has to be either a three have three brow times 90 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: on one side, or be fifty inches tip to tip 91 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: antler spread. Or you might be in a unit that's 92 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: what you'd call a four brow time unit where it 93 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: has to have four brow times on one side, oh 94 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: were and or b fifty in tip to tip. And 95 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,160 Speaker 1: then there's other units that are like any bowl or whatever. 96 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: But but typically you're either it's either a three brow 97 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: time or four brow time area. And it's when we're 98 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: hunting moose, like it's real nice to see the brow 99 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 1: times because gauging fifty inch tip to tip is some 100 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: tricky ship, real trip it's nerve racking, like to shoot. 101 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: There's a lot of guys like my brother Danny's a 102 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: very experienced moves hunter. He is not. It makes him 103 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: very uncomfortable to shoot a bowl on spread and to 104 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 1: not shoot a bull on brow time count. But it 105 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: seems like this feller was just real bad. It seems 106 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 1: like real bad at judging, and he'd kind of check 107 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: them once they were down to see if they're legal. 108 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: Three of them hundred thousand dollar fine. I like that, man, 109 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 1: I was gonna say, it's so be it. I mean, 110 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: that's pretty ignoring because now and then you hear something 111 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: doing something like agreedgious stuff. Then is he winds up 112 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: with a misdemeanor, has to do like a day of 113 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: community service. They don't mess around, man Like Alaska does 114 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,559 Speaker 1: not mess around on game and fish violations. They treated 115 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: like business. Is there not some sort of calculation that 116 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: you can make from afar? Yeah, So that's where the 117 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: stuff gets tricky. If he like, let's say he's broadside 118 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: and turns his head and look at you, there's all 119 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: these little tricks like if that outside swoop hits the 120 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: midpoint on his hump, or you know that a standard 121 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: run of the mill bowl is ear to ear. I 122 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: can't remember. I can't either, but it's out there's a 123 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: measurement of like, hey, like your typical mature bull is 124 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: x inches ear to ear ten per year and plus 125 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: ten in between. Yeah, so you got like that, and 126 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: then you imagine does it go you know, a percentage 127 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: of that? That way all this stuff, what you arrive 128 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: at is unless like a friend of mine, is a guide, 129 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 1: Like unless you look at and you're like, you know, 130 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: it blows like you you feel that your heart's gonna 131 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: stop because it's obviously don't mess around? So wait, did 132 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: they did they count? Did they measure? Then did it 133 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:24,119 Speaker 1: come in? It? Like one was I read the article. 134 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: I came here with the other ones, but one, the 135 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: biggest one was around Okay, did he take any part 136 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: of the animal? Says more? All? Most of all three 137 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: went to waste? Most so is he stripping backstraps and stuff? 138 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: You know, you're asking a lot of great questions, and 139 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: I think that, uh, we have to do a little 140 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: more reading. Body mind just sent me the article. So 141 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: I'm a little bit guilty of having not done a 142 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: ton of research. But the outline of it, I have 143 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: a sense of the outline, but that um it said 144 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: like left most to rot. It sounds like a hundred thousand. 145 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: It's fair. That's big. Yeah, and I do. I was 146 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: wondering if there's a little more to the story because 147 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: I can see that price tag climbing, if I can 148 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: see that fine being less. If it was like guy 149 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: was caught with three moose that were fully processed going 150 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: to feed his family the ditchen the ditch of definitely 151 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 1: probably colors that many favorite past violations probably covered. Some 152 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: states have a thing where if it if it's a 153 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: trophy animal, then your fines go through the roof. Yeah, 154 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: poaching a trophy class animal costs you a lot more 155 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 1: money than than then if you're like a pop hunter, 156 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: then they slap you down harder. Uh. What a couple 157 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: of things I want to talk about. Oh, guy had 158 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: some feedback on something. Cal you were here for this 159 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: conversation where our buddy Steve kendrot this is tricky. Check 160 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: this out, Chris Uh, Our buddy Steve Kendrott shoots him 161 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: seek a deer down in Maryland and it's missing a 162 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: time in Antler time. His buddy shoots a sea Kadeer 163 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: and he's skinning it and there, lo and behold is 164 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: Steve Kendrot's antler time embedded in the buck. So they 165 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: are these are pugnacious little fighters, you know. And he 166 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: snaps his antler time off in the buck, and so 167 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: the guy uh kept the antler time. Steve was able 168 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: to take the anler time to match it up. And 169 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: I was saying, how I felt that if that friend 170 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: of his was an honorable friend, he would have given 171 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: Steve Kendra at the antler time. Steve Kendra, I'm glad 172 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: you said that, because everybody that rolled in we took 173 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: a vote at that day at the table. I mean, 174 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: cal you said, you've made a good point that well 175 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: maybe the story, because I agree with you, like he 176 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: should have just given it to him. Becaw said, well, 177 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: the story is just as good if the anertine's hanging 178 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: like near that trophy that head, because he's like, this 179 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 1: is what I had in my neck and I was 180 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: still alive, right, but go ahead. Well, the guy, one 181 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: of the guys, one of the many guys that wrote 182 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 1: in about it, was looking at it like this. He's 183 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: contrary to my my personal opinion, he says, contrary to 184 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 1: my Steve's opinion. Um, he's like, the fight between these 185 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: two things happened outside the realm of man. The fight 186 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 1: was the fight, and it wasn't involved I didn't involve people, 187 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: And there's there's no room to weigh in on the 188 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: people perspective. They had a fight, and he likens it 189 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: to this. Let's say you've got a knife fight. Or 190 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: let's say someone came up and stabbed you in the 191 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: leg and in the scuffle, the his knife blade snaps 192 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: off in your leg. Whose knife blade is that? Now 193 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,839 Speaker 1: that's a good no? Wait later, would that guy say, oh, 194 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: I need you? Would like, what would your response to 195 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: that fair enough? That knife blade would go in my shelf? Absolutely, 196 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: and when people came over and be like, see that 197 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: knife blade? But would you feel differently if in this 198 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: fantastical world it was his finger that he had jabbed 199 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: into your thigh, broken his finger, and I would have 200 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: it on my shelf and when people came over and 201 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: they were and I caught him looking at it like 202 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: you see that, and I would tell them about it. 203 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:43,959 Speaker 1: I don't think it's a great comparison. I'm sorry, I 204 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: think that's a horrible comparison. So the time was in 205 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: the animal or in the animals donlers you know what, 206 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: because you missed it was in the animal right and animal. 207 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: So this book a like Buck A and Buck B. Yeah, 208 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: they get a fight and Buck A's antler ends up 209 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 1: snapping off into Buck B. My body shoots A, who's 210 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: missing it's antler, and his body shoots B and finds 211 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: embedded in its body, and the body keeps be bark. No, 212 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: you've explained it. But my thing is, what is what 213 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: is that buddy going to do with it? I mean, 214 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: it's one thing if it was if it was wedged 215 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: into the antler somewhere and it told the story like 216 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: what you're talking about. That makes sense. That's a piece 217 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: of art. You know, you're putting the story up to 218 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: mount on your wall. But it was ingrained in the shoulder. 219 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: You can't just hang it on. It's like that's like 220 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: having a fish sculpture and hanging a fly out of it. 221 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: It's got some stupid chuck an. It's ridiculous. Give it 222 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: to your buddy so he can superglue it onto his 223 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: You know, he mounted We thought he should hang it 224 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: from it in a deck with some decorative. Just set 225 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: it next to it, your guys. Is decor is a 226 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: lot different in my opinion. But okay, I don't think. 227 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: I don't think bringing a knife to it is is 228 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: necessarily the same. Analogy. Great analogy. Okay, one more quick 229 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: one and then we're gonna we're gonna talk about other stuff. Um, 230 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: I know how to really attack this one. Not long 231 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: ago we were talking about this. We're talking about that 232 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: when you're sitting in a tree stand and it's cold 233 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,079 Speaker 1: out and a big buck comes through, and you get 234 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: all excited, and then the big buck wanders off about 235 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: his business unscathed, and then I personally all sudn't feel 236 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: like I'm cold, like it left me like I then 237 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: I'm like, this is like, God, am I cold? And 238 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: that guy was talking about how my brother when he 239 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: goes he calls going off to take a growler, going 240 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: off to take a heater. Right. The guy wrote in 241 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: about a doctor writes in to explain these two things. 242 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: He says, you haven't autonomic nervous system of the human 243 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 1: body and has two parts, the sympathetic nervous system and 244 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: the parasympathetic nervous system. The sympathetic nervous system releases epidephrine, 245 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: EPERN and other stress hormones to prepare for what is 246 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: often referred to as fight or flight response. Some of 247 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: these things with like UH affects of these hormones increase 248 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: heart rate, dilate pupils, vassal constrict blood vessels. It shunts 249 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: blood to the core vital organs. The skin becomes pale, cool, 250 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: and diaphretic. The vassal constriction of peripheral vessels is why 251 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: a person might feel cold after a stressful encounter with 252 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: game animals dragon. On the other side, the parasympathetic nervous 253 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: system is known as the rest and digest nervous system. 254 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: The parasympathetic nervous system is active when the body is 255 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: not under stress, i e. Eating fornicating. Now, poor word 256 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: choice on his part, because fornicating means having sex outside 257 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: of marriage. How do you know that? Yes, there could 258 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: be probably only if you're married. Yeah, but I'm saying 259 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: you could be having like some serious stressful Let's say 260 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: you a fella was a woman. Let's say a woman 261 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: was married and the old man's off at work. I 262 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: feel like, right now he's got a little bit of 263 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: bad word choice with fornicating, because he's saying when the 264 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: body is not under stressed, I e. Eating, fornicating eating. Yes, 265 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: fornicating isn't just synonymous with love making. Fornicating means marriage 266 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: outside of or sex outside of marriage. So a woman 267 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: could be in a situation where she's you know, like 268 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: nervous about being discovered by her old man, you dragon, 269 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: which could make it stressful, which would then involve the 270 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: other side of the nervous system. Yeah, where there's like 271 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: you got the fight and fight going on because you're poor. 272 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: You know. I think he should have said, um, love making, 273 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: which is makes that that word just makes people uncomfortable. 274 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: So the parasympathetic nervous system is active when the body 275 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: is not understressed, I eat, eating, love making, or in 276 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: this case, pushing out a grumpy The act of bearing 277 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 1: down to defecate stimulates the vague nerve, which is part 278 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: of the parasympathetic nervous system. When the parasympathetic nervous system 279 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: is stimulated, you get vaso dilation to peripheral blood vessels, 280 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: therefore increased blood flow to the skin, resulting in a 281 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: warmer sensation. Therefore, bearing out my brother's observation that when 282 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: he goes off in the woods on the cold morning 283 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: to turn over a rock, so to speak, Um, he 284 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: feels warmed up by it all, that's all. And can 285 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: you confirm that you do feel cooler or colder gonna 286 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: a big deer walks by? And what's the different? Where 287 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: does adrenaline fall into all of this? I think it's 288 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: what he's saying is that when a big buck comes by, 289 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: you get the adrenaline spike and then it drops and 290 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: you're that's when I become cold. And I do feel 291 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 1: that you get warmed up going off and rolling over rock. Definitely. 292 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 1: You guys have a lot of strange ways of saying 293 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: taking a poop. I've heard three different ways in two minutes. 294 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: Because that's what you're saying though, right is you know, 295 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: like the term like turn out saying earlier that makes 296 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: people uncomfortable growler growlers? Oh love making it. Yeah, going 297 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: poop it just sounds so personal. I love it. I 298 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,479 Speaker 1: think it's great. Pooping sounds fantastic. We use that like 299 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: that's what our what with our kids? Yeah, they need 300 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: to poop, they're pooping. It's just like I feel like 301 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: it's very family a family term it is, but taking 302 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: a growler is a hunting term. I'm in laden. I've 303 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 1: learned a lot so far. Well that's interesting. That's a 304 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: very wordy way of saying. Um, yeah, you know, but 305 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: I'm so happy that that's explained it just like it 306 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: makes sense right, seem like not engaged. I've been thinking 307 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: about poop a lot this fall because I've been, um, 308 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: I've been hunting hungarian partridge a lot. So I'm just uh, 309 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 1: you know, they like a covey of partridge. Huns will 310 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: roost together, and they roost tails together, so when you 311 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: find their roost, you actually find this neat little pile 312 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: of poop um And I can't you know, they're tough 313 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: to find. Bird. I have a great bird dog, but 314 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: a lot of times you're just walking around looking for 315 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 1: sign which are these little white tip dropping So the 316 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: same thing they come in, they back, they back into 317 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: each other and make a little circle and make a 318 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: little collective like poop group. No, I was not disinterested. 319 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: I was lost in thought, you know, doing my poet thing. 320 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: How do we getting out of that? How best? How 321 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:12,479 Speaker 1: best to to get get to our subject matter at hand? Well, 322 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,439 Speaker 1: I could tell you why I think huns are the No, 323 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: not that. Oh, what is our subject I want to 324 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 1: talk about? Uh? I want to talk about your book 325 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 1: of course in bone fishing in general. Yeah, well that's 326 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: what I was gonna say. I could tell you about 327 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: how huns are the bones that do that. So I 328 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: have been thinking about them a lot this fall, and 329 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: and uh there's something to the um the seemingly uh 330 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: mundane habitat and huns living you know, uh, grassy hillsides 331 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: there their seat mostly seed eaters. They don't um, they 332 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 1: don't need a whole lot of agriculture to survive. They're 333 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: really hearty birds. Um. And they covey up. They group 334 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: up a lot of times. You know, bone fish will 335 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: uh we'll school up as well. But you're doing a 336 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: very good job man. For the most part. The reason 337 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: why I enjoy traversing that wide, wide country. It reminds 338 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: me of being on the flats. You know, there's there 339 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: are these what mcgwaen called these long silences you know 340 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: between would you actually find a covey of birds when 341 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,479 Speaker 1: your dog goes on pointing. Uh, it's usually you know, 342 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: right about when you think nothing's gonna happen. And then 343 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: suddenly yeah, uh, I found some hunts. I shot some 344 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:35,960 Speaker 1: huns one time of my late buddy Eric that had 345 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: their crops were full of um grasshoppers. Oh yeah, they 346 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: that's their chief chief food in the in the early fall, 347 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: and then they go to cheat grass after the hoppers, 348 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: you know, die off for the My buddy told me 349 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: he found one, uh clean one last year and the 350 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: hunt had in its crop a grasshopper that was still 351 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: kicking when he cleaned it. That doesn't surprise me, So 352 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: it upsets me a little bit, but doesn't surprise for 353 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: the just just like it'd be like a little bit startling, 354 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: I guess cleaning the bird and there's a live grasshopper 355 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: in there, Well, I wouldn't feel bad for him. Uh. 356 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:16,640 Speaker 1: You guys have all you I mean, as you've caught 357 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 1: a whole pile of bone fish right April. Yeah, I 358 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: think I've caught a few. Never really yep, yeah, I 359 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: always kind of poo pooed those things. Got a lot 360 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: of white fish in my day. You can go if 361 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 1: you're if you got something else to do, because we 362 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: thought you'd caught bone fish. So oh really, yeah, I've 363 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: seen him. I took a couple of casts one time, yeah, 364 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: a few, though only a few. Fifteen years ago. I 365 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: was down in Belize for I don't know, a couple 366 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: of weeks and I maybe landed a half dozen. Okay, nice, 367 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: So your butt Chrissy explains how that fish went from 368 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: being it does a lot of things, but explains how 369 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: like how that how the bone fish became a celebrity 370 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: fish when it used to just be a what well, 371 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 1: they threw it into piles that went into making dog 372 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: food back in the day. You know, the commercial netters would, 373 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: uh if bone fish ended up in their catch, they 374 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: would basically throw it into a pile that went to 375 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: uh to purina or or some other uh, you know, 376 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: undesirable pile of fish, right uh. And that the evolution 377 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: of that is really what, as you say, the book 378 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: is about, at least on um on the surface level. Um. 379 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: Why nineteen fifty one was when the first Bahamian bone 380 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: fish lodge was erected, this guy named Art See I 381 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: read the book, but I don't remember being that early really, 382 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: so people in we were thinking like, oh, this is 383 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: a cool fish to catch. Yeah, well, not very many people. 384 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:05,400 Speaker 1: There was wealthy Floridian guy named Gil Drake Um who 385 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 1: had bone fish in the keys. There were a few 386 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: guys that had bone fishing the keys. Now most most 387 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: people that kind of famed Bahamian bone fish guy. This 388 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: guy named Crazy Charlie Smith. You know that Crazy Church 389 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 1: is the fly everyone knows about. But I got I 390 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: got a small problem. Yes, what's the guy's name again? 391 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: Because here's the guy you got me thinking, the guy 392 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: that shot the moose and got in trouble. Guess what 393 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,919 Speaker 1: his name is? Gil Drake. No, he's got the perfect No, 394 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: Rusty counts. Rusty counts. That sounds like, yeah, Rusty counts. Okay, 395 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: So Gil Drake, Okay, so Gil Drake. And about nineteen 396 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: fifty one, I actually had to listen to this book 397 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: on audio book to remind myself of a few things. Yeah, 398 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: I hadn't read it in a couple of years, so 399 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: I had to re requain myself. But uh, fifty one 400 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: sounds right. Gil Drake was this wealthy Floridian guy who 401 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: lived in Palm Beach in his is um. His wife 402 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: basically fronted into money, uh to go down to the 403 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: Bahamas and build a lodge um and he you know, 404 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: the flight from Palm beach to the east end of 405 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: Graham Bahama is really thirty five forty minutes, right, So 406 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: he found this at the far east end of the archipelago, 407 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: this little island that was that came to be called 408 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: Deepwater Key. And uh after a few months of being 409 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,440 Speaker 1: down there, he hired a man named David Pender, who 410 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: who he hired to basically uh cleaned the island of 411 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 1: mangroves and helped them lug rock and and you know 412 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: rudimentary construction project. But soon he found out that Pender, 413 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: who had been born and raised on this tiny little island, 414 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: uh knew a lot about where the bone fish lived. 415 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: Right for what reason? Just be he I mean, he 416 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: grew up foraging. He was a shore for his father 417 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,560 Speaker 1: had been a sponger, you know, and had drifted uh 418 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: uh kind of islands, islands, island. Pender says in the 419 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: book the sponger like got to collect sponges from the 420 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 1: exactly and that's not ornamental, right, that's for sponge. They 421 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: were so yeah, they were selling them for sponges. Um. 422 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: Pender contends that that the sponges were over harvested at 423 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: one point. Uh, so you know, he was basically a 424 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: sponger's son who had spent in an ordinarate amount of 425 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: timeand this tiny little island at the east end of 426 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,159 Speaker 1: Grand Bahama, and so he knew where the bonefish lived. 427 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: He was basically be mused when uh Drake said, you 428 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: think you could show us where to catch them because 429 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: of you know, of what use was a bone fish? Right? 430 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: They were uh tedious to eat at best, you know, 431 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:56,880 Speaker 1: and there was snapper plentiful and and uh lobsters and whatnot. 432 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,239 Speaker 1: So we talked about this that in Hawaii they make 433 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,479 Speaker 1: a ground up patty. They're not bad. I've I've eaten one, 434 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: I mean, but regardless, one thing we gotta do. Yeah, 435 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: somebody needs to explain, like what a bone fish isn't 436 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: where it lives. I can do it, go for it, 437 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 1: all right? Well, so it's a um you know, the 438 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 1: bone fish is a a sport fish. Now it's really 439 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: average is about three to five pounds. Um. It's a 440 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: fish that lives in deep water. Looks to you know, 441 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 1: the Western I or even the Midwestern I like a whitefish. Basically, 442 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: if you caught Lake Superior whitefish in Michigan, or you 443 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: caught Rocky Mountain whitefish, Um. The bonefish looks very very similar. UM. 444 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: It can travel with speeds of up to thirty miles 445 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: an hour. UM. So it's a you know, a super 446 00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: sporty fish when hooked right, UM strong strong, kind of 447 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: straight ahead laser sharp runs. Not not real. UM. It 448 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: doesn't make a whole lot of buck rockets when you 449 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: hook them. The line going through the water, I cameber 450 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: I came up with this somewhere else? Did I don't know, 451 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: Maybe I stole it from someone. When that fish takes 452 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: off and your lines caught in the water, it sounds 453 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: like someone ripping news print. Yeah, that is exactly what 454 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 1: it sounds like. If you did steal that. That's a 455 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: good theft. Um. You you actually in the chapter I'm 456 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 1: kind of describing the physicality of the bone fish. I 457 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: quote a bit from Meat either the book. You have 458 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: a great line where you say their nose looks like 459 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: the working in of a rechargeable vacuum. I finger like 460 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: your mas va, your mom's the kind of vacuum like 461 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: stick in the wall with tell. I forget what those 462 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: are called, but dust something and that's not so that's 463 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 1: not um anyway. So they live um for the most 464 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: part in deep water where they're rarely caught, but they 465 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: come onto the flats defeats, so the saltwater flats being 466 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: ankle to knee deep really um and and exceptionally clear. Uh. 467 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: They eat crabs, they eat shrimp, they little benthic worms, 468 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: They eat sea urchins, they eat small perch. They even 469 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: eat small bone fish. There's a great story in here 470 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: where this old guy, David Pender who I mentioned, uh, 471 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: just catches a bone fish that has a small a 472 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: twelve pound bone fish that has a one pound bone fish, uh, 473 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: actually still alive and in its in its belly. Um, 474 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,479 Speaker 1: it's the only fish you can maybe that's the only one. 475 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: But when a very few fish you can track down. 476 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: Oh sure, yeah, because they leave signs. They leave signs. 477 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: They go up and go into the mud and make 478 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: a little looks like it looks like someone like kind 479 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: of jammed golf ball down on the ground and pulled 480 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: it back out again, and you'd be like, oh, they've 481 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: been through here. Yeah, you see like dark gray patches 482 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: the MUDs everywhere. Yeah, and then those little little what 483 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: you call little divot rootings, Yeah, little rootings. But they 484 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: don't you know, they don't jump. I think they are 485 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: certainly fast, but they they're probably best renowned for their speed, 486 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: right and their and their strengths for their size. And 487 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: I think at the time when Gil Drake this this 488 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: Floridian was thinking he could make a fishing lodge based 489 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: on this bone fish, it was their their fickleness, you know, 490 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: they're the difficulty um of pursuit that kind of made 491 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: them a target as a sport fish. Um. I'm assuming 492 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: he never fished permit, you know, he would have, he 493 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: would have chanced upon him in the keys. Um. His 494 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: wife actually became an actually his son's wife, Into Drake, 495 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: became an incredible keys guide, and Fat Harrison used to 496 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 1: fish with her. Um. Do you do you don't recognize 497 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: that name, Linda Drake? Yeah, she she was. She was. 498 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: She also guided for this lodge where, um, most of 499 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: the book takes place, called Deepwater key. Um. Yeah. So anyway, 500 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 1: this old old man, David pender Um started guiding basically 501 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,520 Speaker 1: for five dollars a day, and yeah, five bucks a day, 502 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: five bucks a day, right, um, And he had been 503 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: working at a some kind of a missile detection site 504 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: near Freeport. You know, I'm making probably five bucks a month. 505 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: So five bucks a day was just incredible raised for 506 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: him and opportunity um and over the course of because 507 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: there's a great story where he's like working there and 508 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: he must just be doing hard labor too, and it's 509 00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: him and two other dudes, and that's when uh Rap 510 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: comes up and he's looking for a strong, healthy worker 511 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 1: and he's literally he doesn't know anything about these three 512 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: men except just he's just sizing them up. And Pinner 513 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: gets picked and he's like that that was the day 514 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: of all my days. That was the moment that wasn't 515 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: life changed? Right? It's an amazing It's a really a 516 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: beautiful moment. I think, Um it was. I want to 517 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: say it was whatever. Ruination Day is the same day 518 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: the Titanic sank Um, the Titanic sinking has a name, yeah, 519 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: Ruination Day, and it's based off the Titanic sinking. Well, 520 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: I had this argument with with my editor actually because 521 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: she said it was um it was a Gillian Welch 522 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: phrase or invention, but whatever, the same day, same day 523 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: Lincoln was assassinated, right and in the Titanic. Yeah, anyway, 524 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: so man, the guy a shot Lincoln. What a nut 525 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: job that guy was? Man, I didn't realize that I 526 00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: recently was watching something that I mean, you're obviously nut job, 527 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: right man, But I mean just like, you know, it's 528 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: kind of like a drunken derelict, you know, total loser. 529 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: You can't believe it even besides, like how bad you 530 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: are to kill a man, let alone kill the president. 531 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: But in addition, it was just like a drunken Yeah, 532 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: they're walked into the playhouse. Drunken theater. Guy, go ahead, though, 533 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: all right, I will see if anybody had any doubts 534 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: whether or not the assassin. But I could be like, 535 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: now there's a fine specimen of a gentleman did Yeah, 536 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: So it's Abraham Lincoln's assassination, the Titanic sinking and the 537 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: Black Sunday dust one adds up to ruinations. There you go, 538 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: and everybody's saying bad things happen in threes. And then 539 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: Gillian um First brought attention to this historical confluence on 540 00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: her two thousand one album Time Good Yeah, okay, now 541 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: remind me, remind me the guy that goes down and 542 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: he and he opens the thing up to try to 543 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: establish a fishery, right, Gil Drake? Does he need to 544 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,879 Speaker 1: because he's trying to take a fish that no one 545 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: cares about and make people begin part of his job 546 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: to market the fish. He needs like manufacture a clientele. Yeah, 547 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: but he's still decades really away ahead of himself as 548 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 1: far as acts concerned. I mean, this is the fifties. 549 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: So um, he's really just putting up a cool place 550 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: for he and his buds to go hang out. Um, 551 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: but he thinks it's fun and doesn't care if you 552 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 1: think it's fun exactly. He's he's fronted, his wife's fronted 553 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: in the money. He's he's going to go down and 554 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: enjoy himself and and then um, the fishery kind of 555 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:55,479 Speaker 1: begins to take off, um, and and some crazy things coinside. Uh. 556 00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: Timing wise, so as the rise of f ye fishing 557 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,720 Speaker 1: uh for bone fish starts to happen, Um, we're also 558 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: looking at the height of the Columbian drug cartel. Right, 559 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: so um, you know Deepwater Key becomes this destination probably 560 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: next to uh Charlie Smith's Bang Bang Club, the great 561 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: Bahamian bone fish destination at the time. Right, what's Charlie 562 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:30,359 Speaker 1: Smith's Bank Bank Club that's over on Androws. Yeah, that's 563 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: over on Andrews and Charlie Smith is probably the real famed. Uh. 564 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: If you ask people who started bone fishing, who was 565 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 1: the first Bahamian bone fish guy, almost everybody will say 566 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: Charlie Smith. They won't say David Pinder, who is at 567 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: the center of this book and actually was the first guy. 568 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: But there's really Pinder has that that's a generational family, 569 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: right because I was guided by a Pinder when I 570 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: was there. Yeahah, you might have been guided by William. 571 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 1: You might have been guided by Joseph. His two sons, 572 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: David Jr. And Jeffrey guide up out of Freeport. They're all, 573 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:05,319 Speaker 1: you know, incredible. And then, um, third generation is a 574 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: guy named Miko Glinton, who's who's people know from his 575 00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 1: his YouTube world and his I mean I think he 576 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: and I fished. Yeah, we fished for a day and 577 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,640 Speaker 1: he would do this like he does the Michael Jackson turns. 578 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: He'll do a cast and the in between castle do this, 579 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: you know, Michael Jackson turned on the bat with the 580 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: boat and complete his cast. Yeah. Yeah, it's incredible. He 581 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: can throw his he can throw the whole line with 582 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: just his hands, you know. Um, so yeah, Miko is 583 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: third generation and um, you know the book. I'm getting 584 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,319 Speaker 1: ahead of myself. But if we go back to the seventies, 585 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: Gil Drake's son comes around, becomes this also a great 586 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: young guide in the area, and um, bone fishes. The 587 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: bone fish is like a viable sport fish. Now suddenly 588 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 1: people are traveling to to the Bahamas to you know, 589 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: catch this fish. Right. Um. Meantime, the Bohemian economy is 590 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: in the tank, right Yeah, we're just getting to the 591 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 1: drug cartel. So we're still I mean, some people like 592 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: Prime Minister Linden Pindling are getting exceptionally rich, you know, 593 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: taking bribes from from the cartel, but everybody else is, um, 594 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: it's floundering. And about that time someone discovers that the 595 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: bone fish is the reason people are coming to You know, 596 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,360 Speaker 1: we didn't use they didn't use the term eco tourism 597 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: back then, but um, someone had a good sense to say, look, 598 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 1: we can keep giving the Colombians all this money, um 599 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: or all this you know, play in the islands, or 600 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,399 Speaker 1: we can kick them out all together and see if 601 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: our economy can actually be based on this this fish. 602 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: So as it would turn out in two thousand and ten, 603 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: that same fish that Pender guided toward for five bucks 604 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: a day in the fifties. The bone fish is a 605 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:06,319 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty one million dollar industry tourism wise per 606 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 1: year in the Bahamas is then the Bahamas alone, So 607 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 1: it's and that's you know, eight hundred thousand people, maybe 608 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,600 Speaker 1: nine thousand now, but it's the it's the crux of 609 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: of their eco tourism industry. Um, and what's one day 610 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 1: of flats fishing out there right now? I want to 611 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: say it's seven seven bucks. Now, maybe there's a friend 612 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: of mine who did what it cost to go fish. 613 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: That's what it cost to go up and stay at 614 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:34,360 Speaker 1: a lodge and fish in Alaska right bcs it lodges. 615 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: They do a lot of you know, week long packages. 616 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 1: So it's great for the entire economy there. Yeah. Um, 617 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: the can you still do like? I don't know why 618 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be able to? Like in ninety six, my 619 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 1: brother flew to Cancun, took a bus to apply Adele 620 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: Carmen and then ball shiploads of beans and rice and 621 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,840 Speaker 1: a bunch of water and just walked and slept on 622 00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: the beach and fish bone fish And you'd like now 623 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,279 Speaker 1: and then run into do it? Who was doing it? 624 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: But it wasn't like a thing people were doing. So 625 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: just do I y on the beach has complicated that 626 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. I mean you could still 627 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: do it in Mexico. You can still do it and believe. Yeah. 628 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: So if we go if we take that, uh, that 629 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: five dollars a day in the fifties, and we compare 630 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:38,600 Speaker 1: it to the seven per guy day today seven dollars 631 00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: seven hundred and nine dollars per day. Um. According to 632 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: this Econ guy that I talked to, nothing but gold 633 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 1: has appreciated more in that span of time. So you 634 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: take this fish that was basically thrown away, uh, discarded 635 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: into piles for dog food whatnot, and it literally becomes 636 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: the crux of this whole whole country's economy, gets him 637 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 1: out from under uh the drug cartels, um, you know, 638 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 1: the shadow of the drug cartel. And really now that 639 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: we're talking the third generation of Bahamian guides, uh helps 640 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: a country becomes self sufficient. Um. This guy Prescott Smith, 641 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: who's uh, go ahead, you can take You can take 642 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: this on later if you want. Um. Is the money 643 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: phone to Bohemians or is it all phone to Americans? 644 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,439 Speaker 1: Good question, because take that when you want, well, I'll 645 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: take it on now is about where I was gonna go. 646 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: So um, Prescott Smith is the son of Charlie Smith, 647 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: that crazy Charlie guy, right, And what's Prescott? He's a 648 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: bohemian yet and he's funny. I didn't want to I was. 649 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: Oliver White recently corrected me. I said, oh, is your 650 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:05,760 Speaker 1: wife bohemian? He said, bohemian? Right, it is. It's easy 651 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 1: to confuse it to you. A fact. When I was 652 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:10,759 Speaker 1: working on this book, I must have said bohemian a 653 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 1: few times, and people thought, like, God, this guy. I 654 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:15,279 Speaker 1: knew this guy was weird, but I didn't think even 655 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: that weird to write a book about bohemian. If crazy 656 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: Charlie was a local, yeah, so crazy Charlie. He has 657 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: a famous lodge over on Androws, and his son Prescott 658 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: has become the voice of this second third generation of 659 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: guy's basically saying we have to get these lodges out 660 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:45,400 Speaker 1: from under the ownership of these wealthy um Floridian dudes 661 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:49,000 Speaker 1: or or or wherever they're from, and we need to 662 00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,319 Speaker 1: we need to own these lodges because only if we 663 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: own them will the conservation be uh. The necessary choices 664 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: in conservation he made right. Um, he talks. That's a 665 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 1: bold statement. It is man, and he's a he's a 666 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: hated dude in a lot of ways. UM. You you 667 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,799 Speaker 1: asked about the UM, can you just get a bag 668 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,320 Speaker 1: of beans and rice and go kind of dirt bag it? Uh. 669 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 1: In the last couple of years, the Bahamas UH passed 670 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: the law that basically said you can't do that. And 671 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: when I was in the Bahamas, I mean I did 672 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,400 Speaker 1: a lot of d I I knew that when I 673 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: was going there. You still couldn't guide there as you know, 674 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:34,240 Speaker 1: if you weren't from there, but you could do it yourself. 675 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:35,800 Speaker 1: So they've changed that in the last few years. In 676 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,719 Speaker 1: the last few years, I shouldn't say this, Well, that's 677 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:42,200 Speaker 1: the thing. It's not. I was actually down there. We 678 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: went down as a family, UM to celebrate the book 679 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,359 Speaker 1: with this whole town, this little town of maybe three 680 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: people called mcclean's town, and that's where David Pender lives. 681 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: We went down to celebrate the publication of and I 682 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 1: wanted to take Luca our son bone fishing, so UM 683 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: I had to get him a license. But no one 684 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,600 Speaker 1: thought you needed to have a license. They thought the 685 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: old rules were still in place, so to find the 686 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: actual license was as a classic high jinks of like, 687 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: you know, island time, you should go over see Steve. Well, 688 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,319 Speaker 1: Steve told me to go over see April. You know, 689 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Um. So no one appears to be 690 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,279 Speaker 1: monitoring it, but I had We had an argument in 691 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,640 Speaker 1: the Bahamas, uh, and I don't want to say where, 692 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: because it's kind of not a place, not when people 693 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: go to. We had an argument in the Bahamas with 694 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: the guy we were rent in a house from where 695 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: he was insulted when we suggested the need for a 696 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: fishing license, and was especially insulted when we when we 697 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:44,799 Speaker 1: mentioned that there was uh distances from the land where 698 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:50,000 Speaker 1: you cannot spearfish, and he's like, didn't not that he 699 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,879 Speaker 1: didn't like the law, was like insulted that we would 700 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 1: be so stupid as to bring up the idea that 701 00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: someone could possibly even make that law. Yes, I had 702 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,400 Speaker 1: the same conversation with a gentleman who who thought that 703 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: going to try to buy a license was the stupidest thing. 704 00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 1: But you know, he's like, he's you're telling me that 705 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: there's no way it could be true that you can't 706 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:15,840 Speaker 1: use spearfish where you want money, that's great anyway. So 707 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: Prescott Smith has become a kind of a controversial figure. 708 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: But what he talks a lot about conservation wise. Um, 709 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: the Bahamian Archipelago is a fascinating um geological specimen. If 710 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,279 Speaker 1: you will, right, if you um, if you want to 711 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 1: forego you're ambient tonight, just pick up a book on 712 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: Bahamian geology. Um, it's it's a real sleeper. But everything 713 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: but every like five pages or something, you you discover 714 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,000 Speaker 1: some really cool things. For one, UM, slavery didn't really 715 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: take in the Bahamas. Um, the Bahamas had a um 716 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: way different narrative in terms of colonialism than most of 717 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: the Caribbean. Uh because culturally it wasn't suitable ground to 718 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: grow cane both but the latter for the most part. 719 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: So for the same reason that cane didn't grow there. 720 00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: The limestone. Right, Um, we we get this thing called 721 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: the freshwater lens. So obviously the islands exists in salt water, 722 00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: but rain falls onto limestone and basically percolates through the 723 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: tiny um holes in limestone and then spreads out and 724 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,160 Speaker 1: makes what's called the freshwater lens. It's like a meniscus 725 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: of freshwater that um allow the mangroves to flourish, floats 726 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,879 Speaker 1: on top of the salt water. It floats on top 727 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,640 Speaker 1: of it. Yet is that why when we were catching 728 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: baby tarp and they were saying it was I mean 729 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:51,719 Speaker 1: I knew it was brackish. Yeah, That's exactly why I 730 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,680 Speaker 1: was hearing how they could have how they could have 731 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: brackish water in that area. So that's how it doesn't 732 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: make any sense until you, you know, see this gigantic 733 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: map of so. Prescott Smith is a huge proponent of 734 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: preserving these freshwater lens is because they are the places 735 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,360 Speaker 1: where mangroves can flourish. And if you can get mangroves 736 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,759 Speaker 1: to flourish, you can get you know, the bait fish 737 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 1: to flourish, the lobsters which they commercially fish for to 738 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 1: flourish all of these things. Um, when that freshwater lens 739 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 1: is destroyed, uh, basically according to Prescott and really um, 740 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: this other biologist named Andy Danield Chuck who works at 741 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,920 Speaker 1: you Mask you know, so he was you know a 742 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: great content that study, that study that they did, he 743 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: and his wife, Right, they did that incredible study. Right, 744 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,879 Speaker 1: I mean, he's probably one of the people I talked 745 00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: to scientifically the most while while working on his book, 746 00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: and he helped establish, you know, the value of these. 747 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: I read the whole paper. It was fascinesting it is. 748 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,279 Speaker 1: It just starts saying body of water instead of the book, 749 00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 1: so it burns into people's head. Thank you. What the 750 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: name of the story is the body of Water? Two 751 00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,320 Speaker 1: things about the freshwater lens body of water. I have 752 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,759 Speaker 1: often in body Water you mentioned the freshwater lens. Um, dude. 753 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,239 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time puzzling over how in 754 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:09,120 Speaker 1: the hell, Like, let's say you see a little island. 755 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,479 Speaker 1: It's got mangroves on it, but there's no fresh water, 756 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:15,799 Speaker 1: there's no pond, there's no creek. I've often been like, 757 00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,400 Speaker 1: how in the world does that things survive? That's what 758 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: I'm wondering. So is that is that a Is that 759 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,560 Speaker 1: a lens there? It's possible that there is one. But 760 00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:29,080 Speaker 1: mangroves are really like the most hardy plant you'll ever 761 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,879 Speaker 1: come across. I mean, they can live basically underwater. Their 762 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,799 Speaker 1: roots poke up and kind of snorkel for air, you know. 763 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 1: They um they can store salt water and shed it 764 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:45,399 Speaker 1: basically through dead leaves, so they're an incredible survivor. Um. 765 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 1: I don't know that you know direct answer to that question, 766 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,799 Speaker 1: but but I would say the kind of tenacity of 767 00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: mangroves has something something to do with it. Can they 768 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: clip all their freshwater from the simple rain? It's got 769 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,400 Speaker 1: to be that, right. This second point is you talk 770 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,560 Speaker 1: about saltwater, how freshwater float on saltwater. I dove in 771 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:12,000 Speaker 1: a in a body water in the Philippines where there 772 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:18,480 Speaker 1: are freshwater species, and then you dive down and there 773 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 1: are saltwater species because it's like it's a freshwater lake 774 00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,920 Speaker 1: that has an out like like like a cave entrance 775 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,439 Speaker 1: that leads out into the ocean. And so there's there's 776 00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,400 Speaker 1: these like sicklids that are up in the freshwater portion, 777 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,759 Speaker 1: but then down in the saltwater portion you'll run into 778 00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: barricoot and other stuff that come in and out. You 779 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,600 Speaker 1: can dive down through and the temperature changes unbelievable. Do 780 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,839 Speaker 1: they have blue holes down there? It was like one 781 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,960 Speaker 1: of it was one of those. They didn't call it that, 782 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,319 Speaker 1: but it was it was like a blue hole setup. Right, 783 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,759 Speaker 1: there's a few of those around. Somehow these freshwater fish 784 00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: got established in that these freshwater fish somehow got established 785 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,319 Speaker 1: in there and formed like a little population. You dive down, 786 00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: the water's warm and you dive down in there, and 787 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:00,879 Speaker 1: also the water is like frigid, and there's that open 788 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,480 Speaker 1: ocean salt water. But that somehow that that that body 789 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: of water fresh water on top of the well. So 790 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,320 Speaker 1: I mean, if you if you imagine this, this table 791 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: here is is an island in the Bahamas. Whenever a 792 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:24,080 Speaker 1: piece of ground is developed, an infrastructure is put in, 793 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,839 Speaker 1: they basically have to cut into that limestone and when 794 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: they do that, they destroy that freshwater lens. So if 795 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 1: you look at um places like zuma Um where the 796 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:39,440 Speaker 1: fishery has kind of been uh destroyed by resorts and such, 797 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,400 Speaker 1: that's what guys like Prescott Smith are trying to stop 798 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: from happening, and really are are allowed in the guiding 799 00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 1: community UM because they want to take this Bahamian resource 800 00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,400 Speaker 1: and keep it a Bohemian resource. They don't want, you 801 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 1: know what what has happened for generations. Someone comes in, 802 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:05,480 Speaker 1: build something, mess is something up, leaves, it goes somewhere else, 803 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,080 Speaker 1: and mess is something up. You know, they don't want 804 00:50:07,120 --> 00:50:12,360 Speaker 1: that same process. Are our bone fishing resorts doing that 805 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:14,680 Speaker 1: level of development. Like when I think of a bone 806 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,040 Speaker 1: fishing place, I think I'm being real chill, Well, how 807 00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,120 Speaker 1: long does it take for that so when you dig 808 00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: up the flats bottom? I mean I heard it takes 809 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 1: an astronomical amount of time for it to get all 810 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,160 Speaker 1: of its nutrients backs. Right, how long does it take 811 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,120 Speaker 1: to do that? Well, I mean all, I would say, 812 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:31,839 Speaker 1: exponentially longer than it takes to destroy it. So a 813 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:37,600 Speaker 1: little tiny island like deep water Key Sorry, um, that's 814 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,319 Speaker 1: like a two square mile island. I think you know 815 00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:46,239 Speaker 1: they proposed the economic well being on the island is 816 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:48,399 Speaker 1: it was for a long time owned by a guy 817 00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,480 Speaker 1: that you know, we talked this about this but um 818 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:57,400 Speaker 1: on the island, and they proposed putting in I think 819 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,080 Speaker 1: a hundred houses. So that would that would do it? 820 00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,840 Speaker 1: I mean that would, um, a hundred houses would on 821 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:10,600 Speaker 1: a two mile island basically damage significantly that habitat nearest 822 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 1: the island. Now, everyone wants a dock, right, everyone wants 823 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:14,719 Speaker 1: a dock. And if you look at the damage that 824 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,040 Speaker 1: all of those docks do, it's it is unbelievable. And 825 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:22,399 Speaker 1: then you get the outboards you've ever seen all the scrapes, yeah, Chris, 826 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:24,239 Speaker 1: especially when you're flying over that kind of when you're 827 00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 1: flying over those flats and see all those out, those 828 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 1: engine scars out, and those take forever to repair. I 829 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:33,040 Speaker 1: saw recently. So the guys want to build a house. 830 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,319 Speaker 1: They're trying. They want to do like a golf course model. Yeah. Yeah, 831 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:43,879 Speaker 1: basically come down in golf fish, right. I mean, the 832 00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,759 Speaker 1: notion that a small island could support kind of a 833 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 1: an ocean reef club sized development is crazy. But over 834 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,280 Speaker 1: and over and over, management the management of this small 835 00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:03,680 Speaker 1: island changed hands, and as changed hands, you suddenly somebody 836 00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,160 Speaker 1: needed to make more money in the endeavor than the 837 00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:12,439 Speaker 1: last guy did, right, Um, And so uh essentially, as 838 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:17,120 Speaker 1: the as we find it in the book Body of Water, Um, 839 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,319 Speaker 1: the island itself is at an impass, and um the 840 00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:25,560 Speaker 1: community is is about to be uh damaged by what 841 00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,719 Speaker 1: might transpire. Right. So um. David Pender, who was was 842 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:36,480 Speaker 1: the original guide, he goes basically through Um he becomes famous, 843 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 1: if you will, as a guy. He's he guides like 844 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:41,760 Speaker 1: a J. McClain and Joe Brooks and all the famed 845 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,600 Speaker 1: you know, magazine stars of the day. And they come 846 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 1: down and they write about him and he makes deepwater 847 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,400 Speaker 1: key what it is, the the great destination of Bahamian 848 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,920 Speaker 1: bonefish lodges. But there's there's kind of a caveat as 849 00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,920 Speaker 1: he's as he's working all these decades, he's not wearing 850 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,879 Speaker 1: polarized glasses, so he's developing severe cataracts on his eyes. 851 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:09,360 Speaker 1: And as the lodge itself grows kind of into fame, uh, 852 00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,120 Speaker 1: his site declines and he's eventually you know, ship can 853 00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 1: by the lodge and given a severance of I want 854 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,040 Speaker 1: to say, eighteen thousand dollars is the amount they gave 855 00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,520 Speaker 1: him for forty year or so years of service, which 856 00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:24,000 Speaker 1: um was the severance back that was you know, a 857 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,920 Speaker 1: dollar an extra dollar twenty five a day. We should 858 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,719 Speaker 1: point out here that the that these fish, and you 859 00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:34,279 Speaker 1: can talk about this as well, um, the preferred way 860 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,960 Speaker 1: of catching them just to see them, yes, see them, 861 00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,120 Speaker 1: stalk them and cast him. I mean I've caught him 862 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:44,680 Speaker 1: out just like dicking around too. But yeah, if you're 863 00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:47,720 Speaker 1: one vision, one's vision. I was just saying, one's eyesight 864 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,279 Speaker 1: is quite important. Absolutely, yeah. I mean apparently Pender was 865 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,760 Speaker 1: so skilled at finding these fish that one lodge owner 866 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,480 Speaker 1: said he hears the fish, he doesn't need to see them. 867 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:00,759 Speaker 1: But um, you know it was a knack to it 868 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 1: for sure. Man like spotting fish. It's huge. Like people, 869 00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:05,480 Speaker 1: you can be like no right there, no, no, no no, 870 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:07,600 Speaker 1: no right there, right there there. It's like spot mule deer. 871 00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,480 Speaker 1: But it's not the prefer I just want to say, like, 872 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,880 Speaker 1: it's not the as fly fisherman to people, you know, 873 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:13,319 Speaker 1: think we're just trying to make it harder. It's not 874 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:16,800 Speaker 1: the preferred method. It's it's the most efficient method. So 875 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: if you could, you could blindcast all day and don't 876 00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,560 Speaker 1: get me wrong, when you find a whole school of 877 00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,760 Speaker 1: bone fish and they're mudding up, you can cast into 878 00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,879 Speaker 1: that enormous mess of fishing and you'll catch a bunch 879 00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:27,799 Speaker 1: of little I mean catch them out of channels because 880 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,040 Speaker 1: they travel the channels. Yeah, but you know you're gonna 881 00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,160 Speaker 1: be blindcasting all day long. You're gonna be much more 882 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,480 Speaker 1: productive if you start pulling the flats and you're siting them, 883 00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:39,719 Speaker 1: and then you can preferred because it's more productive. Because 884 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:41,279 Speaker 1: if I said it's more productive to blow them up 885 00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:42,759 Speaker 1: with dynamite, that doesn't mean you're going to blow them 886 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,920 Speaker 1: up with dynamite. I would actually argue it's more that 887 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,799 Speaker 1: it's still more productive to fly fish for them then 888 00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:52,960 Speaker 1: blowing up up with dynamite. Okay, He's like, No, the 889 00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,920 Speaker 1: fishery is what it is is because people want to 890 00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:57,839 Speaker 1: go down and site fish for the fish. They're not 891 00:54:57,880 --> 00:54:59,480 Speaker 1: like I want to catch a bone fish and I 892 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,960 Speaker 1: don't care if I'm if I'm out in a hundred 893 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:03,799 Speaker 1: feet of water with a pound of lead and a 894 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:06,440 Speaker 1: live shrimp. They're not. They want to come down and 895 00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:11,359 Speaker 1: they want to see that fish. If you prefer to 896 00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,880 Speaker 1: come down and see that fish and stalk that fish 897 00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:18,080 Speaker 1: and present fly whatever four ft off the end of 898 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:19,759 Speaker 1: its nose firs, and you're not gonna scare the ship 899 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,560 Speaker 1: out of it and have it pick it up. Like 900 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,120 Speaker 1: that's the thing. If he's like all cunning and I 901 00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,279 Speaker 1: and I it was a tough day, you know, And 902 00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:28,600 Speaker 1: I said, I'm gonna give you a heat seeking bullet 903 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,160 Speaker 1: and you can safely shoot it onto that mountain side 904 00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:36,480 Speaker 1: and it will find you know, the wouldn't do it. 905 00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:43,680 Speaker 1: I don't big we talk, So my only point I 906 00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:45,680 Speaker 1: mean to derail the conversation. But I was just saying, 907 00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:49,319 Speaker 1: like when the dude loses his right like waynes you're 908 00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,520 Speaker 1: kind of but as I say, Wayne is according to 909 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:54,719 Speaker 1: the ownership at this lodge. And this is the you know, 910 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: this is the point in the book where he becomes 911 00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:02,440 Speaker 1: kind of that that you know, the classic archetypal figure 912 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,840 Speaker 1: that was cast aside. Right, he helped basically, he literally 913 00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,120 Speaker 1: built the place with his hands. And then when he 914 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:12,440 Speaker 1: becomes a little yes, less useful, he's cast aside. So 915 00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 1: he um, he takes on a little bit of this 916 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:20,520 Speaker 1: this mythic quality. And and as I would discover, he actually, um, 917 00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,719 Speaker 1: he didn't lose his sight altogether. We fished together quite 918 00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:26,239 Speaker 1: a few times, and he was just as good as 919 00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:30,560 Speaker 1: a spotting bone fishes, um as you or I would be, 920 00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,120 Speaker 1: because he could hear him, I don't know, he could 921 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,800 Speaker 1: send them somehow, or or his eyes healed up. He 922 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,319 Speaker 1: got cataract surgery and didn't tell anyone. You know, there's 923 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:41,680 Speaker 1: a there are a few kind of mysterious missing pieces 924 00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:44,840 Speaker 1: in the in the narrative. Um, not missing because I 925 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,280 Speaker 1: didn't research them, but missing because I got different answers 926 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,759 Speaker 1: from you know, different people. Um, how what what even 927 00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:54,200 Speaker 1: brought you down there in first place? Were you trying 928 00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:59,040 Speaker 1: to work down there? No, I my original uh tripped 929 00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:03,160 Speaker 1: down there was on a how to Are aware two 930 00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:07,920 Speaker 1: piece for you know, Outside magazine, And um, I had 931 00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,399 Speaker 1: an old friend and old client. I'm sure you how 932 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:12,759 Speaker 1: long have you been guiding or were you guiding before you? 933 00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:20,920 Speaker 1: So you probably have a large group of people you 934 00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,680 Speaker 1: would consider your friends, right, that you have from your 935 00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,640 Speaker 1: client set. So I had this awesome client, a guy 936 00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 1: named Jeff Miller who grew up in St. Louis and 937 00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: had fished at Deepwater Key from the late seventies early eighties. Um, 938 00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,000 Speaker 1: and when I went down there, he said, you gotta 939 00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,400 Speaker 1: meet this guy, David Pinner. He's he's the guy that 940 00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,920 Speaker 1: started at all. If you if you really want to 941 00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,440 Speaker 1: write about bone fishing in the Bahamas, you need to 942 00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:47,360 Speaker 1: know David Pinder. Of course, you know. I went down 943 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: with the hopes of dashing off an article and fishing 944 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:55,040 Speaker 1: the rest of the time myself, right, Um, But on 945 00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,920 Speaker 1: subsequent trips I would bring groups of clients down. On 946 00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,960 Speaker 1: subsequent trips, I met Pender and spent a lot more 947 00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:04,240 Speaker 1: time with him and realized that he was one of 948 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,280 Speaker 1: those kind of singular dudes, I mean, a person who 949 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:11,240 Speaker 1: has spent his entire life on a two mile island. 950 00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,800 Speaker 1: I mean he grew up foraging for snails and crabs 951 00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:20,000 Speaker 1: and whatever he could find. Um lived on the same 952 00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:24,000 Speaker 1: plot of land that entire time. So um, the more 953 00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,040 Speaker 1: more time I spend down there, the more time I 954 00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:31,000 Speaker 1: realized that he he was the subject of whatever this 955 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,959 Speaker 1: this book might be. And when you say you brought 956 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,680 Speaker 1: people down like you were a promoter, no, I was 957 00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,360 Speaker 1: a host. I just hosted a group of my clients 958 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,840 Speaker 1: who wanted to go down and bone fish at this lodge. 959 00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,280 Speaker 1: What's that relationship look like? It looks good if you 960 00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:48,160 Speaker 1: get it for free? I mean, yeah, so if you 961 00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:50,440 Speaker 1: get eight people, then um, you get to go for 962 00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,240 Speaker 1: free and then cut your check for whatever. The April 963 00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,680 Speaker 1: used to do that, right, But I also heart well, no, 964 00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:57,440 Speaker 1: and I used to do. I've done trips to the 965 00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,680 Speaker 1: Bahamas and Belize and yeah, and I'd get a check, 966 00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:03,959 Speaker 1: But I also would sit there and I wouldn't fish, 967 00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:07,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, that's right. But I would host these trips 968 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:09,880 Speaker 1: and unless my client caught a permit, for example, I'd 969 00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,080 Speaker 1: be sitting on the boat being like, oh, and I 970 00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,640 Speaker 1: don't know about you, but my clients are great steelhead fishermen, 971 00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:17,600 Speaker 1: they're not all great in a flat boat. So I 972 00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,360 Speaker 1: did a lot of just sitting and watching. What do 973 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,520 Speaker 1: you mean you would be like anxious about them being successful? 974 00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:27,560 Speaker 1: But no, I no, yes, no, I couldn't catch a fish. Professionally, 975 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:30,320 Speaker 1: I didn't feel comfortable fishing until my clients had caught 976 00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,240 Speaker 1: a fish. I mean, there are two different kinds of hosts. 977 00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:36,400 Speaker 1: There are some hosts that that don't have that same consideration. 978 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,680 Speaker 1: I felt it would be a professional courtesy to take 979 00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:41,840 Speaker 1: a back seat. What are they asking of you though, 980 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,080 Speaker 1: to talk to them and just give them advice. So 981 00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,400 Speaker 1: these be people like in your in your case you 982 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:52,880 Speaker 1: guys steelhead clients, you become friend professional friendly with the 983 00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,120 Speaker 1: clients and they say, man, I would love to go 984 00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:57,480 Speaker 1: fish bone fish, but I'm not comfortable just going down 985 00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,080 Speaker 1: there and cold rolling in Like you're be my host 986 01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:03,880 Speaker 1: so that I have a familiar face when I arrive 987 01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,520 Speaker 1: and when we arrange everything right, So it's not even 988 01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,760 Speaker 1: so April is going, I'm gonna make sure we're going 989 01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:15,400 Speaker 1: with the right operation. They got the right boat. We're 990 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,120 Speaker 1: going to make sure that we're weve gotten in with 991 01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,800 Speaker 1: the right tides and the right you know, guides and 992 01:00:19,800 --> 01:00:24,360 Speaker 1: when something goes wrong, it's kind of on you. Yeah, 993 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:26,640 Speaker 1: and you've been there before, right, you sussed it out. 994 01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:28,600 Speaker 1: You know how to get from the plane to the 995 01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,640 Speaker 1: shuttle to the lodge. And have you done this? M 996 01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,360 Speaker 1: It's something I'd no longer do. Um. I find it 997 01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:40,120 Speaker 1: really exhausting. It's a lot of work. Yeah, and well 998 01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:41,760 Speaker 1: it depends on I mean a lot of my clients 999 01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:43,720 Speaker 1: are amazing and for their friends, you know, it's a 1000 01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,200 Speaker 1: great time. But you you still have to be on 1001 01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,480 Speaker 1: And I don't know, did you did you take a 1002 01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:54,520 Speaker 1: back seat? I wouldn't do a great business. No, no, 1003 01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:56,440 Speaker 1: I wouldn't do it again. I wouldn't do it again. 1004 01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,680 Speaker 1: How many times you do it enough? A dozen't? Yeah, 1005 01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,479 Speaker 1: you know half it doesn't. I think it's a young 1006 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,600 Speaker 1: five fishing guy though. Boy was something you dreamed about? Man, 1007 01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,640 Speaker 1: Because you get at that point, Oh yeah, you're here 1008 01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,520 Speaker 1: like senior guys talking about doing these trips and you're 1009 01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:15,720 Speaker 1: like if that sounds like paradise? Oh yeah, but you 1010 01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:18,880 Speaker 1: end up you know it. Your your commission gets put 1011 01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,280 Speaker 1: towards air fare and stuff, and yeah, you don't make 1012 01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,200 Speaker 1: any money off of it, and you get to a 1013 01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:25,800 Speaker 1: point as you get older, I think you're like, I 1014 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:30,320 Speaker 1: would rather pay to not have dude take a Yeah you, 1015 01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,440 Speaker 1: I mean your guy. By the time I stopped doing it, 1016 01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,640 Speaker 1: we our family was growing. I didn't want to be 1017 01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:38,400 Speaker 1: going from the family at its best. It's a free 1018 01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,680 Speaker 1: week of fishing at it's best. Right. Yeah, So it's 1019 01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,480 Speaker 1: so just so I'm understand the business right, it's more 1020 01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:49,040 Speaker 1: of a way because like guiding, I appreciate that guiding 1021 01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: can be lucrative, but I gathered from the guides I 1022 01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:56,760 Speaker 1: know that it's a pretty it's like a bootstrap, it's seasonal. Yeah, 1023 01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:58,160 Speaker 1: it could be a tough way to make a living. 1024 01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:04,760 Speaker 1: Just terms two thousand to uh, is that what you're saying? No, No, 1025 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:09,280 Speaker 1: that wasn't. I wasn't referring to anyone's particularly. My sense 1026 01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:12,320 Speaker 1: of it is is that as a guide, it's like 1027 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,120 Speaker 1: a great lifestyle that people want to do, but when 1028 01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:16,920 Speaker 1: it comes it's not like you know, there's a lot 1029 01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,760 Speaker 1: of guys out there that aren't meanting money. So it's 1030 01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,600 Speaker 1: the hosting do I'm understanding the business right. The hosting 1031 01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:25,440 Speaker 1: is the thing you do because you want to go 1032 01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 1: down in your position. I would love to go down. 1033 01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:31,280 Speaker 1: No way, I'm going to spend the money on that. 1034 01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:33,640 Speaker 1: All I need to do to make it that I 1035 01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:38,160 Speaker 1: can go is to assemble this trip. It's usually I 1036 01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:41,600 Speaker 1: can't afford to pay that money to go on that. 1037 01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:43,280 Speaker 1: Here's what I'll do to make it happen. There are 1038 01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:47,560 Speaker 1: a number of book booking aige would you call a 1039 01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:52,840 Speaker 1: and sees that that's their whole business, right, the entire business. 1040 01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:57,520 Speaker 1: It's like it's another service that you can provide to 1041 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:05,080 Speaker 1: your stable of clients that keeps them hanging out with you. Also, right, 1042 01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,360 Speaker 1: and so hey, I mean I've done it on the 1043 01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,560 Speaker 1: hunt side, and I mean really it's I mean, be honest, 1044 01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,920 Speaker 1: is doing a something very very similar every time he 1045 01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:18,280 Speaker 1: sets up a meat eator shoot, right, And you get 1046 01:03:18,280 --> 01:03:20,680 Speaker 1: a taste of it when you invite somebody out to 1047 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:24,760 Speaker 1: hunt with you, and there's that kind of like gnawing 1048 01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:26,560 Speaker 1: feeling in the back of your head where you're like, 1049 01:03:27,520 --> 01:03:29,240 Speaker 1: I know I shouldn't feel this way, but I really 1050 01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:31,600 Speaker 1: want these guys to have success. I hope everything goes 1051 01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,040 Speaker 1: well this trip. I hope we at least see something 1052 01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:38,160 Speaker 1: that's not just total goat rope. The whole time. The 1053 01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:40,360 Speaker 1: difference is is if you bring one guest on the show, 1054 01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:42,440 Speaker 1: you have to deal with one person. But if you 1055 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,240 Speaker 1: have ten guests, there's usually a sour apple in there somewhere, 1056 01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:49,880 Speaker 1: so it can make things interesting. Yeah, the lodge, the 1057 01:03:50,360 --> 01:03:54,200 Speaker 1: post phishing lodge dynamic does not always show people out 1058 01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,880 Speaker 1: their best. You know, April caught a twelve pounder. My 1059 01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:03,160 Speaker 1: biggest fish was five cow. Kind of permit, what everyone's disappointed? 1060 01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:05,840 Speaker 1: You did you see any permit? It turns into pretty 1061 01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,680 Speaker 1: much drivel pretty pretty quickly, I think, or even well, 1062 01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:11,000 Speaker 1: I wish they would have told me to bring that fly, 1063 01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:15,560 Speaker 1: you know. And you're like, or why is the host 1064 01:04:15,600 --> 01:04:18,200 Speaker 1: always getting the best guys? You know, that's a big 1065 01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:22,240 Speaker 1: one too. I've heard nightmare stories from different like or 1066 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:25,000 Speaker 1: about different hosts. There's some great hosts and there's some 1067 01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:28,600 Speaker 1: real shitty hosts. So there, as we all know. I 1068 01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,560 Speaker 1: won't mention them, but yeah, there's some shitty one they're 1069 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:32,240 Speaker 1: just selfishly trying to get that free trip. But there 1070 01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:35,480 Speaker 1: are other hosts who really care about your quality experience, 1071 01:04:35,560 --> 01:04:37,040 Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of people who host 1072 01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,960 Speaker 1: trips own fly shops, so for them it's an opportunity 1073 01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,240 Speaker 1: for them to sell gear. Right. Oh, no, ship man, 1074 01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,400 Speaker 1: just like a neat little business you guys all got 1075 01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:47,760 Speaker 1: involved in. There's a work you know you're talking about, 1076 01:04:47,760 --> 01:04:52,360 Speaker 1: Like I think he almost said scam. No, No, there's 1077 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:54,880 Speaker 1: a I was gonna name I want to name my 1078 01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:57,640 Speaker 1: daughter after my mother, but I wanted to name my 1079 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:03,440 Speaker 1: daughter uh zinny uh And Zinnia is a word. It's 1080 01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:05,680 Speaker 1: a word that has to do with the guest host bond, 1081 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:07,919 Speaker 1: the bond that forms between the guests and the host. 1082 01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,480 Speaker 1: And I believe it's somehow related to it comes from 1083 01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:15,200 Speaker 1: the action of a flower and the pollinator. Point being, 1084 01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:19,280 Speaker 1: I'm interested in this guesthole situation. Don't get too interested. 1085 01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:22,680 Speaker 1: It's really not that great. It's really not It was 1086 01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:24,880 Speaker 1: a way for me to get down to get back 1087 01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:28,520 Speaker 1: down there. I had a good buddy who he kind 1088 01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:34,720 Speaker 1: of was a fixer of sorts for destination lodges, right, um, 1089 01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:38,480 Speaker 1: And you could hire him and he would go hang 1090 01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:42,080 Speaker 1: out at your lodge and help kind of ferret out 1091 01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:45,600 Speaker 1: the usual crap that happens at those things. Right. Had 1092 01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:47,320 Speaker 1: a little bit of theft, a little bit and like 1093 01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:50,000 Speaker 1: not you know, taking cash under the table instead of 1094 01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,600 Speaker 1: running at through the books type of stuff. And and 1095 01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:55,680 Speaker 1: he had quite the experience out there in the Bahamas 1096 01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:59,440 Speaker 1: and and just taught. He's like, man, I he's like 1097 01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:03,560 Speaker 1: I had. He's like a part of the deal is 1098 01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:06,120 Speaker 1: like I could take a boat out and go fish 1099 01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:09,440 Speaker 1: and I he's like, but I didn't get to enjoy 1100 01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:16,120 Speaker 1: any of it because there was so much animosity between me, 1101 01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:21,600 Speaker 1: the white dude, and the staff, right the local guides. Um. 1102 01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:26,960 Speaker 1: And he said the friction was like nothing he had 1103 01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,600 Speaker 1: ever experienced. And but that's really what it was. It 1104 01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,840 Speaker 1: was during that time of like, hey, we gotta make 1105 01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:38,880 Speaker 1: sure that we control this industry and and because nobody's 1106 01:06:38,920 --> 01:06:41,880 Speaker 1: gonna take care of it the way we wanted to 1107 01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:45,120 Speaker 1: be taken care of. Yeah, yeah, no that I I 1108 01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:49,840 Speaker 1: saw that dynamic at work too, And um yeah, I 1109 01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:54,439 Speaker 1: think you know, Um, it's funny because funny you bring 1110 01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:59,160 Speaker 1: that up. Of all the things that reviewers talked about 1111 01:06:59,200 --> 01:07:01,360 Speaker 1: in regard to this book Body of Water, no one 1112 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,880 Speaker 1: would no one would touch race, you know, even though 1113 01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:08,240 Speaker 1: it's definitely a subject in the book. So you write 1114 01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:10,080 Speaker 1: about race with the reviewers that want to talk about 1115 01:07:10,080 --> 01:07:13,360 Speaker 1: how it talks about race. Yeah, even sitting here right now, 1116 01:07:13,400 --> 01:07:15,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it. I mean stories, 1117 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:19,040 Speaker 1: I've got stories for days. But I'm just like, okay, 1118 01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:23,520 Speaker 1: I got more tell me about Okay. Well, I mean 1119 01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:27,880 Speaker 1: there's it's not surprising to me to hear that there's 1120 01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:33,120 Speaker 1: a little racial tension between Well, there isn't every recreational economy, 1121 01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:37,760 Speaker 1: and it's not like necessarily black, white, brown, white, whatever 1122 01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,360 Speaker 1: it's you're from here, You're not from here. And even 1123 01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:45,200 Speaker 1: though I'm making my living off of this industry, it 1124 01:07:45,320 --> 01:07:51,240 Speaker 1: is totally totally hyper focused on people not from here 1125 01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:54,960 Speaker 1: as an American, and you're going to feel it. It's 1126 01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:57,680 Speaker 1: nothing to do with color, So it's more insider outsider, 1127 01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,760 Speaker 1: but it happens to be overlaid with race rather than 1128 01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:05,960 Speaker 1: being black versus white, right, I mean, according to Prescott Smith, 1129 01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:09,040 Speaker 1: the guy mentioned earlier, he all, he says he's different 1130 01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:11,680 Speaker 1: really Island Island. He says, you know, on on Androws, 1131 01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:15,600 Speaker 1: race relations are far more evolved than they are on 1132 01:08:15,680 --> 01:08:18,000 Speaker 1: say the east end of Graham Bahama, which I would 1133 01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:20,479 Speaker 1: gather after spending a lot of time, there's there's a 1134 01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:25,240 Speaker 1: lot more in the wilderness, if you will, right, Um, 1135 01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:27,720 Speaker 1: But with that kind of racial tension though, man, it does. 1136 01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,639 Speaker 1: It's there's a lot of it in Hawaii, and there's 1137 01:08:31,680 --> 01:08:35,040 Speaker 1: an inside. It's insider outsider, but it's also not because 1138 01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:37,800 Speaker 1: look at the like the derogatory term for an outsider 1139 01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:41,479 Speaker 1: is like a howiy right, So ghosts you presume like 1140 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:45,439 Speaker 1: white ghost so like it's it's us them we they 1141 01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,320 Speaker 1: inside outside, But it's overlaid by racial So there's a 1142 01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:51,960 Speaker 1: moment in the books, it's probably two thirds of the 1143 01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:55,439 Speaker 1: way through. There's this guy, Walter Recley, who's guiding me 1144 01:08:56,000 --> 01:09:01,120 Speaker 1: uh On on a given day. And Walter did an 1145 01:09:01,120 --> 01:09:04,880 Speaker 1: interesting thing. After guiding for this prestigious lodge deep Water 1146 01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:07,800 Speaker 1: Key for twenty five years or so, he along with 1147 01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:11,519 Speaker 1: another local guide from mc cleanstown, got together with a 1148 01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:14,280 Speaker 1: couple investors and said, we want to build our own lodge. 1149 01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:17,320 Speaker 1: Will you front us the money for this? And the investors, 1150 01:09:17,360 --> 01:09:19,519 Speaker 1: who had fished with them for thirty years or so, 1151 01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:21,800 Speaker 1: said yeah, let's do it. You know, we'll build it 1152 01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:24,639 Speaker 1: across the channel from deep Water Key. It'll be within 1153 01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:26,759 Speaker 1: i shot but and it won't have its own island, 1154 01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:28,280 Speaker 1: but you know, you'll have your own boats, you'll have 1155 01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:31,800 Speaker 1: your own dock, everything, and um, this is a place 1156 01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,720 Speaker 1: called East End Lodge, which is still in existence and 1157 01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:39,080 Speaker 1: still like yellow Dog takes people down there. Um. But 1158 01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:43,559 Speaker 1: for a couple of years it was floundering, and so 1159 01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:45,799 Speaker 1: Walter had to go back to work for the lodge 1160 01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:47,920 Speaker 1: that he had turned his back on, and of course, 1161 01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:49,640 Speaker 1: you you know, fall in at the bottom of the 1162 01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:52,680 Speaker 1: totem polled. So we're sitting at lunch one day and 1163 01:09:53,080 --> 01:09:56,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about this, and I'm trying to dig a 1164 01:09:56,280 --> 01:10:00,120 Speaker 1: little bit out of him from a research standpoint. You know, 1165 01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:03,160 Speaker 1: I kind of play this conspicuous role in the book 1166 01:10:03,160 --> 01:10:05,040 Speaker 1: and my poet and my a ficient guy to my 1167 01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:07,880 Speaker 1: a nonfiction writer, what am I doing down here? But 1168 01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:12,040 Speaker 1: he finally caves and and says, like, um, how would 1169 01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:15,760 Speaker 1: you feel? He says, how would you feel if where 1170 01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:18,240 Speaker 1: are you from again? Manitoba? That's what he says, And 1171 01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:22,160 Speaker 1: say Montana? And he says, well, how would you feel if, um, 1172 01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:27,160 Speaker 1: if someone opened up a lodge in Montana? Or if 1173 01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:29,479 Speaker 1: you worked for a lodge and you worked your entire 1174 01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,120 Speaker 1: life but you could never own the boats, you could 1175 01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:36,360 Speaker 1: never own the equipment, you could never really get ahead, right, 1176 01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:40,040 Speaker 1: And that's a you know, a moment in the book 1177 01:10:40,120 --> 01:10:42,760 Speaker 1: where I and epiphany, if you will, where I begin 1178 01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:47,679 Speaker 1: to see far deeper into the lens of these local 1179 01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:52,000 Speaker 1: Bahamians because it's the answer is obvious, right, you feel 1180 01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,439 Speaker 1: like shit, I understand exactly where they're coming from. Look 1181 01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:56,400 Speaker 1: at believes now compared to what it used to be 1182 01:10:56,720 --> 01:10:59,439 Speaker 1: when you know, you Americans, when I bought up everything 1183 01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:02,160 Speaker 1: or standing to San Pedro, right like yeah, you guys, 1184 01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,120 Speaker 1: you too, do the culprits. But yeah, I get where 1185 01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,920 Speaker 1: they're coming from. I mean, it's a limited resource. Do 1186 01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,120 Speaker 1: you see this up and BC? I mean BC is 1187 01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:13,320 Speaker 1: a lot more controlled in some ways, right it is. 1188 01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:15,360 Speaker 1: But yeah, there's always going to be that little bit 1189 01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:17,280 Speaker 1: of I mean, you can be an American and have 1190 01:11:17,280 --> 01:11:18,840 Speaker 1: a lodge, but we want to see that you've put 1191 01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:22,400 Speaker 1: your time into you know, be one of us, because 1192 01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:24,080 Speaker 1: it's just it's like, why are you here taking from 1193 01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,000 Speaker 1: the resource? And what are you giving back? That's the 1194 01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,960 Speaker 1: big question. What are you giving back? So that's you know, 1195 01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:33,759 Speaker 1: the same question this guy, Prescott Smith asked the same question. 1196 01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:37,800 Speaker 1: Walter asked, alright, So by the end of the book, 1197 01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:41,320 Speaker 1: we um body of water, body of water, we we 1198 01:11:41,439 --> 01:11:45,880 Speaker 1: see this lodge, uh called North Riding Point also kind 1199 01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:49,240 Speaker 1: of an old prestigious lodge in the Bahamas which becomes 1200 01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:51,679 Speaker 1: managed by this guy named Paul Adams, who had grown 1201 01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:55,280 Speaker 1: up on deep Water Key, had grown up um with 1202 01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:59,000 Speaker 1: David pinder as as a friend, as a mentor. His 1203 01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:01,880 Speaker 1: his parents had managed the lodge, and then he goes 1204 01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:05,240 Speaker 1: off to prep school and college whatever, ends up back 1205 01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:08,839 Speaker 1: and at this lodge called North Riding Point. Their model 1206 01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:12,840 Speaker 1: is far different. They want um, you know, we talked 1207 01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:17,120 Speaker 1: about Miko earlier, Miko Glinton. They hired Miko away from 1208 01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:19,439 Speaker 1: deep Water Key and said, we want to groom you 1209 01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:22,080 Speaker 1: to be the manager of this place. In the meantime, 1210 01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:26,479 Speaker 1: we're gonna send your three kids to school, private school 1211 01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,880 Speaker 1: and freeport. We're gonna give your wife a job as 1212 01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:34,720 Speaker 1: assistant manager. Uh. Samantha is also a masseuse, you know. Um. 1213 01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:38,840 Speaker 1: And so that that old kind of antiquated post colonial 1214 01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:42,080 Speaker 1: model that deep Water Key had been following for so 1215 01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:46,559 Speaker 1: long is beginning to be usurped, if you will, or 1216 01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:50,519 Speaker 1: um bettered by by some newer lodges. So they're giving back, 1217 01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:54,240 Speaker 1: even though the money is presumably coming from somewhere up here. 1218 01:12:54,280 --> 01:12:57,439 Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what makes it tricky is that 1219 01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:02,519 Speaker 1: the industry is driven by outsiders, right right. It's like, 1220 01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:06,680 Speaker 1: it's not like there's this economy going on and then 1221 01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,920 Speaker 1: outsiders come in and they're like, Oh, what a cute 1222 01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:14,160 Speaker 1: thing you've created here, We're gonna grab it from you. 1223 01:13:14,760 --> 01:13:17,120 Speaker 1: It's like, well, no, ship. There's a lot of outside 1224 01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,240 Speaker 1: interest in the economics of it because it's fueled by 1225 01:13:20,280 --> 01:13:22,680 Speaker 1: outside and trust. If it wasn't for the if it 1226 01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:27,000 Speaker 1: wasn't for outsiders coming to fish, those jobs wouldn't exist. 1227 01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:30,880 Speaker 1: So what it's not, it's not it's clean, right right. 1228 01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:35,280 Speaker 1: But I mean eventually it's the same discussion we're having 1229 01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:41,800 Speaker 1: here in Montana. What is sustainable and what isn't? Right? Um, 1230 01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:45,680 Speaker 1: what is erecting fifty or a hundred houses on a 1231 01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:51,960 Speaker 1: to mile island sustainable to the environment? Probably not? Um, 1232 01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:55,240 Speaker 1: Could this economy support it? Probably not? Would people continue 1233 01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:57,400 Speaker 1: to go there after years and years? No, So you'd 1234 01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:00,240 Speaker 1: end up with something that's not sustainable and was it? 1235 01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:04,400 Speaker 1: And it's one of those things that, yeah, you have 1236 01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:07,479 Speaker 1: the cliche loving something to death. It's one of those 1237 01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:12,559 Speaker 1: things that in in pursuit of an ideal, you wreck 1238 01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:16,320 Speaker 1: the entire You wrecked the entire point of it all. Yeah, 1239 01:14:16,479 --> 01:14:20,160 Speaker 1: I mean I I see the statistics in Montana were 1240 01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:25,360 Speaker 1: the outdoor recreation industry is bringing in billions, literally billions 1241 01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,639 Speaker 1: of dollars seven point one billion is the last stat 1242 01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:32,400 Speaker 1: that I saw. And outfitting and guiding is third in 1243 01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:37,200 Speaker 1: outdoor wreck tier of things, a lot behind lodging and gas. 1244 01:14:37,240 --> 01:14:41,960 Speaker 1: So we're also contributing to those as well. Um, but yeah, 1245 01:14:42,000 --> 01:14:45,920 Speaker 1: there's a breaking point for sure, I think, And and 1246 01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:49,600 Speaker 1: these are good examples, right, It's like, yeah, it's like, 1247 01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:53,840 Speaker 1: well I was in Belize when it was really good 1248 01:14:53,880 --> 01:14:56,120 Speaker 1: and it wasn't bought up, and so I don't even 1249 01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:58,120 Speaker 1: want to go there anymore. So then you move on 1250 01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:00,760 Speaker 1: to the next spot and ruin that. Like before you 1251 01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,040 Speaker 1: guys get any of that, Like when you go around 1252 01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:07,360 Speaker 1: you you're kind of rolling loud at this point, right, 1253 01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:10,519 Speaker 1: I mean, had a role real quiet, and we typically 1254 01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:12,559 Speaker 1: do roll real quiet, and if we don't roll real 1255 01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:17,439 Speaker 1: real quiet, it's not good, right, So people, we try 1256 01:15:17,479 --> 01:15:21,200 Speaker 1: to be discreet. Man. People don't know where somewhere. People 1257 01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:23,519 Speaker 1: don't know we're somewhere unless they hear it from a 1258 01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,400 Speaker 1: name until the episode airs, and then do you hear 1259 01:15:26,439 --> 01:15:29,800 Speaker 1: it not. I mean we have starting that blew up 1260 01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:31,960 Speaker 1: a place. Is that what you're getting at? No, I'm 1261 01:15:31,960 --> 01:15:34,160 Speaker 1: not accusing you that, I'm just saying like I mean, 1262 01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:37,200 Speaker 1: when you go and do like a kid that amazing 1263 01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,839 Speaker 1: caribou hunt you know where you see that fifty miles 1264 01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:47,000 Speaker 1: string of caribou coming through? Are your email inboxes getting 1265 01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:49,400 Speaker 1: lit up every week? Like you want the thing that 1266 01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:52,280 Speaker 1: we've been We get asked about most. We get asked 1267 01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:57,000 Speaker 1: by by a factor of ten. Um. We get ask 1268 01:15:57,120 --> 01:16:05,080 Speaker 1: most about a particular antalope unit. No kidding why Um? 1269 01:16:05,280 --> 01:16:13,120 Speaker 1: Some things are self limiting okay, because of inaccessibility, because 1270 01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:18,880 Speaker 1: of uh needed to like draw like limited entry permit 1271 01:16:18,960 --> 01:16:22,519 Speaker 1: lotteries for tags right where there's only a set number 1272 01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:25,160 Speaker 1: of participants that can engage anyways because they have a cap. 1273 01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:27,640 Speaker 1: You could be carible hunting in a place that has 1274 01:16:27,640 --> 01:16:34,960 Speaker 1: a quota. So it's it's the quota gets filled every year. Right, Um, 1275 01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:37,840 Speaker 1: you could make it, you could make you could blow 1276 01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:41,400 Speaker 1: it up and that you make it. Participation become harder 1277 01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:45,360 Speaker 1: because there's increased interest and so therefore getting one of 1278 01:16:45,400 --> 01:16:49,360 Speaker 1: those permits becomes more difficult. But in a lot of places, 1279 01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:52,360 Speaker 1: including the place that we would never in a millionaires 1280 01:16:52,439 --> 01:17:00,000 Speaker 1: divulge um. The the Antelope unit, we would never divulge. Uh. 1281 01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:02,439 Speaker 1: You can't blow it up because there's that limiting thing. 1282 01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:05,439 Speaker 1: There's gonna be set. A number of people are engaged 1283 01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:07,559 Speaker 1: in the activity every year and that's kept by law 1284 01:17:08,120 --> 01:17:10,320 Speaker 1: other things. Yeah, you could, you could blow it up. 1285 01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:14,200 Speaker 1: And I think that that happens to some extent, but 1286 01:17:15,200 --> 01:17:17,479 Speaker 1: a lot I think that a lot of the people 1287 01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:20,000 Speaker 1: that watch the shore are like, honestly just interested in 1288 01:17:20,040 --> 01:17:21,960 Speaker 1: seeing the experience, and a lot of it's not something 1289 01:17:21,960 --> 01:17:23,800 Speaker 1: that people it's not something that a ton of people 1290 01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:28,360 Speaker 1: really want to go do. Always um, in cases where 1291 01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:30,280 Speaker 1: we are up front about it, sure, I have absolutely 1292 01:17:30,280 --> 01:17:33,720 Speaker 1: no doubt that it that it that it does a 1293 01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:37,599 Speaker 1: negative to it. Um. And there's all kinds of arguments 1294 01:17:37,640 --> 01:17:41,479 Speaker 1: to be made about to what uh, to the extent 1295 01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:46,400 Speaker 1: that awareness and advocacy and people's engagement with the resources 1296 01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:51,639 Speaker 1: is beneficial. And there's two really good arguments. There's two 1297 01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:56,639 Speaker 1: really good arguments, and I can articulate them both, and 1298 01:17:56,880 --> 01:18:01,760 Speaker 1: I vacillate between the two. And the one is that, um, 1299 01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,040 Speaker 1: there's this great stuff out there. I don't want anyone 1300 01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:07,000 Speaker 1: to know about it. I just wanted for me. And 1301 01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:11,320 Speaker 1: the other argument is is that that mindset, we'll sink 1302 01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:16,440 Speaker 1: you in the end. Just had this discussion earlier today. 1303 01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:19,559 Speaker 1: It's a it's a balancing act. Yeah, did my old 1304 01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:24,200 Speaker 1: my old boss, This guy, Rusty Gates, he owned a 1305 01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:27,000 Speaker 1: lodge on the Assemble up in Grayling, Michigan and was 1306 01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:31,599 Speaker 1: one of the first fierce conservationists in that area. He um, 1307 01:18:31,680 --> 01:18:33,680 Speaker 1: not a lot of them. No, he fought off like 1308 01:18:33,800 --> 01:18:36,800 Speaker 1: Nestley and some big oil wells from going in, and 1309 01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:41,200 Speaker 1: he amassed this group of doctors and lawyers who were 1310 01:18:41,200 --> 01:18:43,519 Speaker 1: his clientele and basically said, look, they're gonna screw this 1311 01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:46,280 Speaker 1: river up if we don't fight them. Until he started 1312 01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:48,599 Speaker 1: this thing called the Anglish of the Assable. But you say, 1313 01:18:48,640 --> 01:18:53,880 Speaker 1: in fact, I quit throwing my refrigerators and old exactly. 1314 01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:56,240 Speaker 1: But I remember when I started bird on and he said, 1315 01:18:56,240 --> 01:18:58,839 Speaker 1: you know, CD, that's not a that's not a sport. 1316 01:18:58,880 --> 01:19:02,000 Speaker 1: You want to get too many people into. So there 1317 01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:04,640 Speaker 1: is that, there is that feeling. But I read an 1318 01:19:04,640 --> 01:19:08,599 Speaker 1: amazing book. Um. I was asked to write a blurb 1319 01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:11,000 Speaker 1: for an amazing book by a writer named Dean Kuiper's 1320 01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:14,280 Speaker 1: called The Deer Camp, which takes place in Michigan and 1321 01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:18,719 Speaker 1: Keiper's He wrote for Spin magazine forever and has written 1322 01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:22,839 Speaker 1: a lot of kind of environmental justice pieces, but he 1323 01:19:22,960 --> 01:19:26,799 Speaker 1: talks a lot about all the Leopold's philosophy and basically 1324 01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,240 Speaker 1: that notion that I'm gonna write read this note I wrote. 1325 01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:33,519 Speaker 1: He says something like, we can be ethical only in 1326 01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:37,080 Speaker 1: relation to something we can see, feel, understand, or otherwise 1327 01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:41,720 Speaker 1: have faith in, you know, so that idea that um, yeah, 1328 01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:44,320 Speaker 1: you want to keep something yourself, but if you keep 1329 01:19:44,320 --> 01:19:48,600 Speaker 1: it really all to yourself, the next generation ceases to 1330 01:19:48,640 --> 01:19:51,880 Speaker 1: have the ability to have to that direct contact, you know, 1331 01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:57,040 Speaker 1: that thing that inspires uh, stewardship and conservation and and whatnot. 1332 01:19:57,160 --> 01:20:00,280 Speaker 1: And and that's the that's the the razor's edge you 1333 01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:05,080 Speaker 1: walk right, It's I want to influence people. And you 1334 01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:08,280 Speaker 1: got a book like Body Water here that's going to 1335 01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:11,960 Speaker 1: be very influential to who reads it. But you want 1336 01:20:11,960 --> 01:20:15,719 Speaker 1: to inspire folks just enough to where if they get asked, 1337 01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:19,240 Speaker 1: if hey, just by chance, would you care if we 1338 01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:23,479 Speaker 1: ended fishing in the state of Montown, they'd be like, boy, 1339 01:20:23,560 --> 01:20:26,160 Speaker 1: you know, I don't fish there personally, but I don't 1340 01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:30,320 Speaker 1: think that's a good idea, right, but you don't necessarily 1341 01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:34,360 Speaker 1: want him out there on the on the river. You 1342 01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:38,960 Speaker 1: no doubt know the fishing writer John Geerrick, Yeah, and 1343 01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:42,439 Speaker 1: then his uh, he's got a fly time buddy a 1344 01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:45,880 Speaker 1: k bas No, it wasn't a k Best to said, 1345 01:20:45,880 --> 01:20:48,160 Speaker 1: it's Yehny, who's the guy that had the quote about 1346 01:20:48,200 --> 01:20:52,800 Speaker 1: what are you doing over there taxing? Brody? Know what 1347 01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:56,240 Speaker 1: I'll bring this. I'll help you sell people on why 1348 01:20:56,280 --> 01:20:57,880 Speaker 1: you're doing that, and I'll bring it full circle and say, 1349 01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:01,519 Speaker 1: Brody's a fishing guide too. That's right in Colorado and 1350 01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:03,839 Speaker 1: he used to do quite a few of these hosted trips. 1351 01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:07,479 Speaker 1: I'm just keeping I'm just keeping your little side activity 1352 01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:10,360 Speaker 1: and making it seem like it's have many side activities 1353 01:21:10,400 --> 01:21:15,120 Speaker 1: going during these conversations. Help me out. Though, it wasn't 1354 01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:17,240 Speaker 1: a k beast who said the role casting quote that 1355 01:21:17,240 --> 01:21:21,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote. Yeah. We even asked John about this 1356 01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:25,479 Speaker 1: in some fishing writer, some fishing writer who John Gearrick 1357 01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:31,680 Speaker 1: Admiers was saying, I won't write about any river that 1358 01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:34,840 Speaker 1: I can roll cast across, and I can roll cast 1359 01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:39,040 Speaker 1: a long way. That's a great I think that's a 1360 01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:43,120 Speaker 1: really really great rules. Sure, it's okay to write about 1361 01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:46,120 Speaker 1: the Missouri. It's like, are you bigger than right? What 1362 01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:49,280 Speaker 1: do you like? You can keep that secret? Yeah, this Missouri. 1363 01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:54,719 Speaker 1: You speak up, but you're walking the line, dude, because 1364 01:21:54,720 --> 01:21:57,400 Speaker 1: there's no doubt. Like I read it, I've done that, 1365 01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:01,160 Speaker 1: I've done that. I've five for bone fish in Mexico, 1366 01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:03,720 Speaker 1: I flat fish for bone fish and Belize, I fly 1367 01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:06,599 Speaker 1: fish for bone fish in the Bahamas. Okay, but kind 1368 01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:10,840 Speaker 1: of like whatever did it? Moved on to other things. 1369 01:22:11,520 --> 01:22:13,880 Speaker 1: But reading I'm like, damn, that is pretty cool, man, 1370 01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:16,120 Speaker 1: I do It's like makes me want to go back 1371 01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:17,800 Speaker 1: because you write about it. But we haven't talked about this, 1372 01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:20,000 Speaker 1: but you write about it very beautifully. I can tell. 1373 01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:22,400 Speaker 1: I can see you struggle as a poet and writer 1374 01:22:22,720 --> 01:22:25,559 Speaker 1: because you're trying to mix. You're you're putting a poetic 1375 01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:31,800 Speaker 1: sensibility into certain passages, but also there's a journalist sensibility, 1376 01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:35,920 Speaker 1: and those two things are not always dancing nice. There 1377 01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:39,800 Speaker 1: are not always like dancing nice dances and dirty. But 1378 01:22:39,920 --> 01:22:41,640 Speaker 1: the point let me fish this thing to take the 1379 01:22:41,680 --> 01:22:43,639 Speaker 1: writing on. But want to finish the point here, you're 1380 01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:48,000 Speaker 1: sending people down there by writing beautifully about a place 1381 01:22:48,200 --> 01:22:50,720 Speaker 1: that you feel could potentially be destroyed by people going 1382 01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:54,000 Speaker 1: down there. I know you're setting up a real conundrum. 1383 01:22:54,040 --> 01:22:57,519 Speaker 1: It's the thin edge of the wedge, right, Yeah, I 1384 01:22:57,560 --> 01:23:01,400 Speaker 1: know it's I think. Um, you know, a place like 1385 01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:05,439 Speaker 1: deep Water Key has been developed to the extent that 1386 01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:07,759 Speaker 1: it can be developed, and it sounds like the money 1387 01:23:07,800 --> 01:23:09,719 Speaker 1: was pulled. No one's gonna be able to build fifty 1388 01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:13,000 Speaker 1: houses anymore. That that's kind of a pipe dream. Um, 1389 01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:16,120 Speaker 1: But I do think about that. I've never written one 1390 01:23:18,360 --> 01:23:24,160 Speaker 1: fishing piece on Montana that even remotely refers to a 1391 01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:26,439 Speaker 1: body of water that you could locate. In fact, I 1392 01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:29,519 Speaker 1: try to obscure it as as best as possible, right, 1393 01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:36,960 Speaker 1: I try to, um super cute. Um, you know, I'll 1394 01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:41,080 Speaker 1: I'll obscure it as best possible hunting hunting pieces in 1395 01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:45,760 Speaker 1: the same way. Um, but back to your notion of 1396 01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:50,240 Speaker 1: that that kind of poeticized journalism or whatnot. When um, 1397 01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:52,760 Speaker 1: I showed David James Duncan an early draft of this, 1398 01:23:52,840 --> 01:23:56,080 Speaker 1: who's a real good friend of mine, probably my first readers, 1399 01:23:56,720 --> 01:24:00,720 Speaker 1: uh hisn The manuscript came back and every now and 1400 01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:05,040 Speaker 1: then he would write this acronym which stood for poet 1401 01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:10,080 Speaker 1: colon right pros exclamation point. You know so, um, it 1402 01:24:10,080 --> 01:24:12,000 Speaker 1: did take me a long time to try to weed 1403 01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:18,160 Speaker 1: myself out of the impulse to um to poeticize something 1404 01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:20,320 Speaker 1: that really didn't need to be poeticized. Are you better 1405 01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:24,200 Speaker 1: because um? Are you better because you just can't make 1406 01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:29,479 Speaker 1: poetry pay? Oh? No, that took me, you know? Are 1407 01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:33,000 Speaker 1: you better because one cannot make? No? That's why. That's 1408 01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:36,160 Speaker 1: why poetry. There's a great guy Clark's song about that, right, 1409 01:24:36,479 --> 01:24:38,559 Speaker 1: that's what keeps the poet free. I forget what the 1410 01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:41,639 Speaker 1: actual line is, but yeah, no, poetry is not supposed 1411 01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:44,960 Speaker 1: to pay. It's uh, it's below money, it's above money. 1412 01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:53,400 Speaker 1: It hovers in the ether. It's romantics. Is lovemaking that? Yeah, 1413 01:24:53,520 --> 01:24:56,080 Speaker 1: in the right field. I have a fun way to 1414 01:24:56,160 --> 01:24:58,160 Speaker 1: make it pay. But a matter of fact, it has 1415 01:24:58,240 --> 01:25:02,240 Speaker 1: cost me quite some money. But um, so you don't 1416 01:25:03,680 --> 01:25:05,280 Speaker 1: do you still write poems? Yeah? I have a new 1417 01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:07,839 Speaker 1: book of poems coming out in March called Ragged Anthem. 1418 01:25:07,880 --> 01:25:11,360 Speaker 1: It actually has there's there's um, there's three hunting poems 1419 01:25:11,400 --> 01:25:14,280 Speaker 1: in it. I can't trying to remember, because you were 1420 01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:16,759 Speaker 1: once telling me you you didn't like to mix fishing 1421 01:25:16,760 --> 01:25:19,000 Speaker 1: in poem. Right, no, no, there's and I actually went 1422 01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:21,360 Speaker 1: back and look there's there's one poem in there. The 1423 01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:23,519 Speaker 1: last poem in the book is it's not a fishing poem, 1424 01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:26,080 Speaker 1: but it is a poem that has a brook trout 1425 01:25:26,120 --> 01:25:29,439 Speaker 1: in it that's actually grabbed, you know, by hand and 1426 01:25:29,800 --> 01:25:34,400 Speaker 1: eating over a stick fire. Um, it's you know, you 1427 01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:36,519 Speaker 1: can what you can say about poetry. Everybody's gonna just 1428 01:25:37,200 --> 01:25:40,200 Speaker 1: turn their phones off. Let me rip Let me rip 1429 01:25:40,200 --> 01:25:41,720 Speaker 1: out a lot of poetry, and you tell me who 1430 01:25:41,760 --> 01:25:44,360 Speaker 1: said it. Okay. Um, there are strange things done in 1431 01:25:44,360 --> 01:25:47,240 Speaker 1: the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold 1432 01:25:49,680 --> 01:25:54,760 Speaker 1: pop service, Sam Maghee. Okay, all right, you got me? 1433 01:25:56,000 --> 01:25:58,400 Speaker 1: Can I rip out another one? This is the only 1434 01:25:58,439 --> 01:26:01,759 Speaker 1: poem I know? Okay? Um? How was the hunting Hunter? 1435 01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:07,719 Speaker 1: Bold Brother? The watch was long and cold? Rob Service? Okay? 1436 01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:11,920 Speaker 1: Group bottle line of poetry? Oh man, Uh you know 1437 01:26:12,080 --> 01:26:17,920 Speaker 1: yesterday was Harrison's birthday. Uh. He has a great line 1438 01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:20,280 Speaker 1: from a poem called Cabbage. If only I had the 1439 01:26:20,360 --> 01:26:24,639 Speaker 1: genius of a cabbage, or even an onion to grow 1440 01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:28,200 Speaker 1: myself in their lamon a from the holy core that 1441 01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:32,400 Speaker 1: bespeaks the final shape. Oh yeah, yeah, gives me a 1442 01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:37,960 Speaker 1: little choke. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know you mentioned gear Rock. 1443 01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:39,880 Speaker 1: He was sweet to this book. He I'd never met 1444 01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:41,760 Speaker 1: him before. I've grown up reading him, you know. I 1445 01:26:41,880 --> 01:26:46,160 Speaker 1: read everything I could. Uh. And then, um, my publicist 1446 01:26:46,240 --> 01:26:48,120 Speaker 1: called me up in November, right after the book came 1447 01:26:48,120 --> 01:26:51,000 Speaker 1: out and said, you know a guy named John Guy Rich. 1448 01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:58,240 Speaker 1: I said, um, what some writer John Guy? I said, 1449 01:26:58,320 --> 01:27:00,519 Speaker 1: John gear Rock. She said, yeah, you better check the 1450 01:27:00,520 --> 01:27:02,519 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. He just wrote a review on Body 1451 01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:05,640 Speaker 1: of Water. So no, yeah, he had he'd written a 1452 01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:07,880 Speaker 1: beauty this quote on the back of the book. You 1453 01:27:07,920 --> 01:27:10,760 Speaker 1: didn't know he was putting that in there. And that's 1454 01:27:10,840 --> 01:27:13,719 Speaker 1: the paperback, so um, you know he wrote the review 1455 01:27:13,720 --> 01:27:16,360 Speaker 1: about the hard back and I had no idea. No, 1456 01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:20,200 Speaker 1: I just saw the literal paper, which was fantastic. It 1457 01:27:20,280 --> 01:27:21,720 Speaker 1: was the first thing I saw when I well, I mean, 1458 01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:24,920 Speaker 1: obviously it's the top quote, but definitely stuck out to me. 1459 01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:28,439 Speaker 1: I saw the Body of Water. But he came up 1460 01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:32,320 Speaker 1: to Missoula last year to give a reading. Fantastic crowd 1461 01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:34,920 Speaker 1: out there, and we had a nice dinner and he said, 1462 01:27:34,960 --> 01:27:38,160 Speaker 1: you know, um, he said, he wrote a good book. 1463 01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:41,719 Speaker 1: Thanks not. It's really humbling to hear and he said, 1464 01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:46,280 Speaker 1: but you can only write one bad one, so you know, 1465 01:27:46,320 --> 01:27:48,479 Speaker 1: get back to work. All of the book, he says. 1466 01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:53,519 Speaker 1: Krist Dombrowski's exacting descriptions of the sport made me long 1467 01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:57,040 Speaker 1: to try it again and to wish that more fishing 1468 01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:03,360 Speaker 1: books were written by poets. It's amazing. I'm excited to 1469 01:28:03,360 --> 01:28:05,080 Speaker 1: read it, but I'm kind of scared. I don't want 1470 01:28:05,080 --> 01:28:07,599 Speaker 1: to get sucked into wanting to fish for bone fish again. 1471 01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:10,760 Speaker 1: You know what's funny, I have such little desire to 1472 01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:15,520 Speaker 1: fish for bone fish at this point. I know, Yeah, 1473 01:28:15,520 --> 01:28:20,120 Speaker 1: why What I don't miss, what I don't think I'll 1474 01:28:20,160 --> 01:28:23,680 Speaker 1: ever not want to do, is is the hunt, the 1475 01:28:23,800 --> 01:28:25,960 Speaker 1: visual hunt for the fish. And we were talking about 1476 01:28:25,960 --> 01:28:29,120 Speaker 1: this earlier, you know, the preferred, the preferred way. I 1477 01:28:29,160 --> 01:28:32,439 Speaker 1: think it's preferred because it does it takes us back 1478 01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:35,680 Speaker 1: way back into that like place, to seeing brain that 1479 01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:39,920 Speaker 1: has really not been missing from our world for too long. 1480 01:28:39,960 --> 01:28:43,680 Speaker 1: It's you know, our new brain hasn't been in existence, 1481 01:28:43,800 --> 01:28:46,240 Speaker 1: not up to date. No, it's not. So we desire that, 1482 01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:50,200 Speaker 1: we we crave that that language, of that visual language, 1483 01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:53,400 Speaker 1: and that that doctor was talking about. I mean, I 1484 01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:56,080 Speaker 1: would imagine if it got cold out there, which it does. 1485 01:28:56,200 --> 01:28:57,800 Speaker 1: You know, you heat up in that moment and then 1486 01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:00,640 Speaker 1: if it's cold to get cold again, chill if you 1487 01:29:00,680 --> 01:29:04,920 Speaker 1: have to take a heater. So I've been thinking about 1488 01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:08,519 Speaker 1: something you said, April. You're right, Uh, dynamite is not. No, 1489 01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:12,519 Speaker 1: I'm not kidding. You're right about this. If one found 1490 01:29:12,560 --> 01:29:18,439 Speaker 1: themselves in bone fish country and someone and uh put 1491 01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:20,240 Speaker 1: a gun to your head and they're like, you catch 1492 01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:25,320 Speaker 1: one as fast as possible or I'll shoot you. Um, yeah, man, 1493 01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:28,160 Speaker 1: that's probably what you would set out to do, is 1494 01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:30,600 Speaker 1: go look for one. Yeah, you wouldn't go out and 1495 01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:36,080 Speaker 1: start wailing away out and look you and a for 1496 01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:38,400 Speaker 1: you guys are probably more an expert on this than I. 1497 01:29:38,479 --> 01:29:41,200 Speaker 1: But I know people that guide bone fish in the Keys, 1498 01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:44,240 Speaker 1: and I think that if you put that question to 1499 01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:47,080 Speaker 1: at least two of my buddies down there and what 1500 01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:51,200 Speaker 1: tool they would use, they'd say a very nudely spin 1501 01:29:51,280 --> 01:29:54,640 Speaker 1: casting rod with a shrimp on it. But but I 1502 01:29:54,680 --> 01:29:57,320 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily saying that the fly is the most proctive. 1503 01:29:57,360 --> 01:30:01,519 Speaker 1: I'm saying sit site fishing for then and casting to 1504 01:30:01,600 --> 01:30:04,360 Speaker 1: them like a live crab in the flats that's going 1505 01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:06,559 Speaker 1: to clean up everywhere so it doesn't matter if it's 1506 01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:10,320 Speaker 1: flier or bait, but it's the site fishing and specifically 1507 01:30:10,360 --> 01:30:12,880 Speaker 1: tracking that fish rather than just blind casting over and 1508 01:30:12,920 --> 01:30:15,200 Speaker 1: over again and hoping one goes by. In the likelihood 1509 01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:18,720 Speaker 1: that you're gonna spook one if you're just casting over 1510 01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:20,880 Speaker 1: you know what books sent me down to want to 1511 01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:24,320 Speaker 1: go catch one real man? Uh remember dude, I don't 1512 01:30:24,320 --> 01:30:27,000 Speaker 1: know if he's on the scene anymore. Randall Kaufman. Yeah, 1513 01:30:27,240 --> 01:30:29,479 Speaker 1: he was kind of big, like Oregon and ship like 1514 01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:33,720 Speaker 1: that and sold fly tian equipment whatnot. He had a book, yeah, 1515 01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:37,559 Speaker 1: Kaufman stream Born. He had a bone fish book. It's big, 1516 01:30:37,600 --> 01:30:41,360 Speaker 1: it's hard back, great photos. And then my brother Danny 1517 01:30:41,439 --> 01:30:43,960 Speaker 1: had one of those my bro Dames of Fisheries biologist. 1518 01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:46,960 Speaker 1: I think you know this. Uh, he's a big fly 1519 01:30:47,080 --> 01:30:52,439 Speaker 1: pole fisherman. He uh to this day. He had one 1520 01:30:52,479 --> 01:30:58,439 Speaker 1: of those calendars where it's like cool fishing pictures. I 1521 01:30:58,479 --> 01:31:00,479 Speaker 1: think I had this too, Yeah, and everything third one 1522 01:31:01,520 --> 01:31:03,680 Speaker 1: was a bone fish picture or some dude on the 1523 01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:08,000 Speaker 1: flats or some dude doing something like that, and you know, 1524 01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:11,439 Speaker 1: every third day you're like, damn, that looks cool and 1525 01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:14,640 Speaker 1: that's what like, you know, it was being inspired not 1526 01:31:14,760 --> 01:31:16,960 Speaker 1: by people. I didn't know anybody that's ever done it. 1527 01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:19,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't being inspired by people who did it. It 1528 01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:22,000 Speaker 1: was being inspired by art. I feel like it's one 1529 01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:25,280 Speaker 1: of those things that art sends you to do it. 1530 01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:30,599 Speaker 1: Art doesn't send you to fish through the ice. Something 1531 01:31:30,600 --> 01:31:32,320 Speaker 1: else sends you to fish to the ice. It's not art, 1532 01:31:32,720 --> 01:31:37,360 Speaker 1: but art propels one, you know, madness, It sends you 1533 01:31:37,400 --> 01:31:46,320 Speaker 1: to the ice and hunger, hunger or a buzz. But 1534 01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:48,200 Speaker 1: it's just so easy to catch a lot of bone 1535 01:31:48,200 --> 01:31:50,439 Speaker 1: fish in a lot in a lot of places. I 1536 01:31:50,439 --> 01:31:53,160 Speaker 1: mean not always. I always say to people that you know, 1537 01:31:53,320 --> 01:31:55,880 Speaker 1: especially people who are new to fishing, salt bone fish 1538 01:31:55,880 --> 01:31:57,400 Speaker 1: are an excellent way to hone up your skills. I 1539 01:31:57,439 --> 01:31:59,280 Speaker 1: don't want to take you permit fishing if you haven't 1540 01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:01,879 Speaker 1: gone bone fish, because they're just gonna be like miserable. 1541 01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:04,639 Speaker 1: Well and there, they can be difficult, especially those big ones. 1542 01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:07,120 Speaker 1: I mean, they are just a whole new world. Right. 1543 01:32:07,160 --> 01:32:09,800 Speaker 1: If you see someone getting nervous in front of a 1544 01:32:09,840 --> 01:32:13,439 Speaker 1: bone fish, you know they're just going to free a permit. 1545 01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:15,639 Speaker 1: But I think there's a lot of opportunity for this 1546 01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:17,920 Speaker 1: art because it is pretty I mean you can go 1547 01:32:18,040 --> 01:32:20,960 Speaker 1: to wile Ease and catch fifty bone fish. Really, especially 1548 01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:22,960 Speaker 1: if you're casting into like a big over a day 1549 01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:26,839 Speaker 1: or I mean over a trip that depends, but definitely 1550 01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:29,200 Speaker 1: easy over a trip, easy over I mean there'll being 1551 01:32:29,240 --> 01:32:32,000 Speaker 1: a big mud pile. Right, so you're literally just casting, 1552 01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:35,280 Speaker 1: you're flying and stripping and anything's gonna bite. It makes 1553 01:32:35,280 --> 01:32:36,760 Speaker 1: you feel like I was going about it all wrong, 1554 01:32:36,880 --> 01:32:38,800 Speaker 1: and we do. We're kicking ask to catch a few 1555 01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:40,800 Speaker 1: of them. Well that's what it should be like. Yeah, 1556 01:32:40,960 --> 01:32:45,360 Speaker 1: they're you know, the the purest frown upon throwing into 1557 01:32:45,360 --> 01:32:48,120 Speaker 1: the MUDs. But if you're a guy, you're a guide 1558 01:32:48,200 --> 01:32:52,800 Speaker 1: or a host and it's day six or hate into 1559 01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:58,720 Speaker 1: a mud, I think personally I really don't care. But 1560 01:32:58,720 --> 01:33:01,439 Speaker 1: but for some people yet it can be deemed the 1561 01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:03,920 Speaker 1: mud is really cool. There they You know, you see 1562 01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:07,240 Speaker 1: this kind of dense cloud of milky water and then 1563 01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:09,240 Speaker 1: you just see a little flash or two up to 1564 01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:13,040 Speaker 1: little tails and wagging around. Do you have to kind 1565 01:33:13,040 --> 01:33:15,679 Speaker 1: of disagree with you like you're earlier comment in April 1566 01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:21,920 Speaker 1: and which bone fish Like, hadn't you ever heard of permit? 1567 01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:25,679 Speaker 1: What do you mean? In the fifties by him? Yeah, 1568 01:33:25,720 --> 01:33:30,400 Speaker 1: because I mean just think tongue in cheek. It's like 1569 01:33:30,680 --> 01:33:33,040 Speaker 1: these things coming in and out of fashion to like 1570 01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:37,200 Speaker 1: fly fishing or fishing in general is you know, it's 1571 01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:40,040 Speaker 1: like driven by what's cool not And I know a 1572 01:33:40,120 --> 01:33:43,920 Speaker 1: lot man who love bone fishing and do not like 1573 01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:46,280 Speaker 1: to go fishing for permit or even turpin. You know 1574 01:33:46,320 --> 01:33:47,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people who are into that. But a 1575 01:33:47,800 --> 01:33:49,439 Speaker 1: lot of this also has to do with like in 1576 01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:51,640 Speaker 1: the fifties, I don't know, we don't have enough time 1577 01:33:51,680 --> 01:33:53,559 Speaker 1: to drive you know, to jump into the history of 1578 01:33:53,560 --> 01:33:55,280 Speaker 1: like Joe Brooks and a lot of those guys. But 1579 01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:57,840 Speaker 1: a lot of that, like you're saying it was fashionable 1580 01:33:57,960 --> 01:34:00,320 Speaker 1: or a lot of people knew at that time that 1581 01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:02,760 Speaker 1: they could catch bone fish, but they didn't know that 1582 01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:06,519 Speaker 1: you could catch permit, so it wasn't necessary that. I 1583 01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:07,720 Speaker 1: mean a lot of it could have just been that 1584 01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:12,040 Speaker 1: he didn't didn't know that he could catch permit. Yeah, 1585 01:34:12,040 --> 01:34:17,040 Speaker 1: pure ignorance. It's just like nobody fishes, you know, five 1586 01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:20,080 Speaker 1: years ago, nobody threw flies at trigger fish, and like 1587 01:34:20,360 --> 01:34:23,519 Speaker 1: everybody wants to catch trigger fish. Well they did five 1588 01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:25,559 Speaker 1: years ago, but it's really trendy. Yeah, you know, it's 1589 01:34:25,800 --> 01:34:30,559 Speaker 1: the hip like, you're right, it goes to it goes well, 1590 01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:32,040 Speaker 1: that's I was going to get to that. I mean, 1591 01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:37,400 Speaker 1: I think even ten fifteen years ago, people I thought 1592 01:34:37,439 --> 01:34:40,559 Speaker 1: you couldn't catch permit. You know, now we think they're tough. 1593 01:34:41,280 --> 01:34:45,440 Speaker 1: Late in the book, this guy, David Pender, this amazing 1594 01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:49,160 Speaker 1: human being and one of the great guides and anglers 1595 01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:53,360 Speaker 1: in the Caribbean, tells this story where at almost dinner, 1596 01:34:53,479 --> 01:35:00,760 Speaker 1: this tiny little shack of dinner in mcclean's towns conch fritters, lobsters, 1597 01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:05,080 Speaker 1: you know, peas and rice. I always get it wrong, 1598 01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:11,720 Speaker 1: peas and rice. Um. And somehow one of his his 1599 01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:15,200 Speaker 1: son's winds him into this glory story of having guided 1600 01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:20,400 Speaker 1: back in the eighties a man, a Coca Cola executive 1601 01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:23,839 Speaker 1: into a double on permit. He and his partner doubled 1602 01:35:23,880 --> 01:35:28,120 Speaker 1: on permit and landed him simultaneously. You know. Um. So 1603 01:35:28,880 --> 01:35:32,080 Speaker 1: it's a story that that's told in great detail, and 1604 01:35:32,800 --> 01:35:38,960 Speaker 1: um it's like an amazing One fish goes east, peels 1605 01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:41,040 Speaker 1: into the backing and leaves just a couple of cranks 1606 01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:43,360 Speaker 1: left on the reel, and the other fish goes north 1607 01:35:43,439 --> 01:35:46,559 Speaker 1: and does the same thing, and and penderested make these 1608 01:35:46,600 --> 01:35:49,720 Speaker 1: incredible adjustments to land both of these fish and um 1609 01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:53,960 Speaker 1: and they do. I remember going home after hearing that 1610 01:35:54,080 --> 01:35:58,439 Speaker 1: story and uh and thinking, maybe, you know, we'd fallen 1611 01:35:58,520 --> 01:36:01,479 Speaker 1: over into the edge of of and and lore and 1612 01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:04,880 Speaker 1: this didn't actually happen. But at this point in the book, 1613 01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:08,599 Speaker 1: I was gonna give Pinder his own his own voice, right, 1614 01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:12,559 Speaker 1: he'd earned it, and um so I just I left 1615 01:36:12,600 --> 01:36:15,040 Speaker 1: it his is. You know, he told the story. It happened, 1616 01:36:15,040 --> 01:36:16,639 Speaker 1: But in the back of my mind, I was always thinking, 1617 01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:18,280 Speaker 1: was you know it was that a little bit of 1618 01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:21,040 Speaker 1: a fish tail? Um So, the book had been out 1619 01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:26,200 Speaker 1: maybe um three or four or five months, and I 1620 01:36:26,240 --> 01:36:31,080 Speaker 1: get this private message on my Facebook author page, and 1621 01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:34,840 Speaker 1: it's a picture, an old black and white picture of 1622 01:36:35,080 --> 01:36:37,479 Speaker 1: this old dude they called the Coca Cola Man and 1623 01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:40,920 Speaker 1: Pinder sitting on the dock with these uh two permit 1624 01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:45,280 Speaker 1: And yeah, the picture had been sent by uh, this 1625 01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:48,559 Speaker 1: guy who basically captain's a yacht for the Coca Cola 1626 01:36:48,600 --> 01:36:51,439 Speaker 1: Man and they go all over the world and and fish. 1627 01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:55,800 Speaker 1: And he said, I was reading your book and I 1628 01:36:55,840 --> 01:36:58,519 Speaker 1: got to this passage about the double on permit and 1629 01:36:58,560 --> 01:37:01,160 Speaker 1: I said, oh my god, hey, boss, come here, you 1630 01:37:01,200 --> 01:37:03,080 Speaker 1: gotta take a look at this or whatever. So he, 1631 01:37:03,600 --> 01:37:07,439 Speaker 1: you know, procured the picture. Was down in the the 1632 01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:10,640 Speaker 1: lodge or or the bar of the yacht, and he 1633 01:37:10,720 --> 01:37:12,160 Speaker 1: took a picture of it and sent it to me. 1634 01:37:12,200 --> 01:37:16,479 Speaker 1: And that's great. I'm told this before, but on the 1635 01:37:16,520 --> 01:37:20,080 Speaker 1: difficulty of permit I was with I was down with 1636 01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:21,680 Speaker 1: my brother one time. We were in the Bahamas, my 1637 01:37:21,720 --> 01:37:24,559 Speaker 1: brother Danny, and he was out wanting around looking for 1638 01:37:24,600 --> 01:37:29,360 Speaker 1: bone fish, and I was taking some We had been 1639 01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:32,360 Speaker 1: spear fishing, and I was taking some snapper heads and 1640 01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:36,880 Speaker 1: catching some little sharks, and uh, I hook a big ray. 1641 01:37:37,160 --> 01:37:40,960 Speaker 1: You know, permits like the following. So the ray goes along, 1642 01:37:41,800 --> 01:37:43,880 Speaker 1: and the ray just goes along, and he's moving along 1643 01:37:43,880 --> 01:37:47,400 Speaker 1: and he's silting, stirring up the silt and spooking up stuff, 1644 01:37:47,439 --> 01:37:49,439 Speaker 1: and so permit just in bone fish were just getting 1645 01:37:49,439 --> 01:37:51,479 Speaker 1: the habit of following behind him to see what they 1646 01:37:51,560 --> 01:37:55,280 Speaker 1: kick up. So here I have a big ray on 1647 01:37:55,320 --> 01:37:58,639 Speaker 1: the end of my line. Okay, And after a couple 1648 01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:02,479 Speaker 1: of seconds, there's to permit in mudding behind the ray 1649 01:38:02,479 --> 01:38:04,439 Speaker 1: because he's raising the real ruckus because I got him 1650 01:38:04,439 --> 01:38:09,160 Speaker 1: on my line. So I motioned frantically for Danny to 1651 01:38:09,160 --> 01:38:13,200 Speaker 1: come over, because here, what better scenario you have to 1652 01:38:13,439 --> 01:38:16,080 Speaker 1: permit that you know, we're feeding there, like looking for 1653 01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:19,880 Speaker 1: food because they're following behind the ray and the rays 1654 01:38:19,960 --> 01:38:22,600 Speaker 1: kicking up so much silt that there's like dust in 1655 01:38:22,640 --> 01:38:26,640 Speaker 1: the air, dust in the water. So it would presumably 1656 01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:31,439 Speaker 1: like impair the permit's vision in some way. And he 1657 01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:35,200 Speaker 1: is able to just take cast after cast because I 1658 01:38:35,240 --> 01:38:38,160 Speaker 1: can reel the ray in and then let him back again, 1659 01:38:38,240 --> 01:38:40,519 Speaker 1: let the drag loose. He goes back out on the 1660 01:38:40,560 --> 01:38:42,080 Speaker 1: permit and the ray go out and the permit the 1661 01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:44,439 Speaker 1: ray come in the permit, and meanwhile he's like cast 1662 01:38:44,520 --> 01:38:47,880 Speaker 1: after cast after cast after cast. Sons of bitches would 1663 01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:54,120 Speaker 1: not know because they're like so yeah, like that, they 1664 01:38:54,200 --> 01:38:57,520 Speaker 1: like run up, they want to I'm gonna kill that thing. 1665 01:38:57,680 --> 01:38:59,639 Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop and smell it. Look at the size 1666 01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:03,400 Speaker 1: of their Did you cook that ray on purpose? No, 1667 01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:04,960 Speaker 1: I was trying to get sharks and the ray picked 1668 01:39:04,960 --> 01:39:10,880 Speaker 1: it up. I um, that ray lives today. Well, let's 1669 01:39:10,880 --> 01:39:12,479 Speaker 1: something else killed the hammer head shark might have come 1670 01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:14,320 Speaker 1: and killed it. I don't know. I didn't mess with it. 1671 01:39:14,640 --> 01:39:22,680 Speaker 1: Kristen Browski body not though body, but body of water awesome, man, 1672 01:39:22,720 --> 01:39:25,160 Speaker 1: thanks for having me. Yeah, people should go read the book, man, 1673 01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:29,640 Speaker 1: please do. It's got like a real It tells a 1674 01:39:29,640 --> 01:39:31,760 Speaker 1: cool story and it tells you and it tells you 1675 01:39:31,800 --> 01:39:33,599 Speaker 1: what to do about it. There's a bunch of good 1676 01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:37,559 Speaker 1: guiding David guiding stories in there. Another one pops into 1677 01:39:37,720 --> 01:39:40,519 Speaker 1: into the head where he's got the investor in the 1678 01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:44,040 Speaker 1: original owner in the boat. And I'm not gonna give 1679 01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:46,559 Speaker 1: it away because you gotta go get and read Body 1680 01:39:46,600 --> 01:39:49,960 Speaker 1: of Water to get this story. But that's a good one. 1681 01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:53,839 Speaker 1: Like there's a fish on and then I'll hope is lost. 1682 01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:57,880 Speaker 1: But then the guide says, you know what, let's try 1683 01:39:57,960 --> 01:40:02,800 Speaker 1: this and yeah, and this is coming from a former guy, right, yeah, yeah, 1684 01:40:02,840 --> 01:40:04,719 Speaker 1: I could go on. I know we're short on time, 1685 01:40:04,800 --> 01:40:07,559 Speaker 1: but I was just thinking about the times where rowing 1686 01:40:07,560 --> 01:40:10,040 Speaker 1: a boat, you know, you got to fish on and 1687 01:40:10,080 --> 01:40:12,280 Speaker 1: they're not just like any two fish where you're like, yeah, 1688 01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:14,280 Speaker 1: just skip that thing across the surface. But these things 1689 01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:17,479 Speaker 1: are like bone a rod over there on the bottom 1690 01:40:17,479 --> 01:40:19,439 Speaker 1: of the river, and you're like, okay, what am I 1691 01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:21,200 Speaker 1: gonna do? How's it gonna work? Oh, there's a rapid 1692 01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:23,439 Speaker 1: coming up, Holy sh it. And then somehow you at 1693 01:40:23,439 --> 01:40:25,080 Speaker 1: the bottom of the rapid and you've got to fish 1694 01:40:25,080 --> 01:40:33,479 Speaker 1: in one net and it's just everybody's Yeah, those are 1695 01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:37,320 Speaker 1: good times, good stories. Kristen Browsky Body of Water. Folks 1696 01:40:37,360 --> 01:40:40,800 Speaker 1: can go buy it on Amazon, right, And you gotta 1697 01:40:40,880 --> 01:40:45,960 Speaker 1: know that you have influenced at least one more dirty 1698 01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:49,600 Speaker 1: bum fishing guy to pursue his writing dreams. And my 1699 01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:51,960 Speaker 1: buddy Colin Scott, you wanted me to be sure to 1700 01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:56,720 Speaker 1: let you know that he uh really looks up to you, 1701 01:40:56,720 --> 01:40:59,639 Speaker 1: and you let him know that it is in fact 1702 01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:02,920 Speaker 1: pop boy. So he's still bumming at in ak and 1703 01:41:03,400 --> 01:41:07,960 Speaker 1: writing screenplays. So you're not only are you ruining bonefish 1704 01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:11,880 Speaker 1: people clouding it up, you're ruining writing and bringing in 1705 01:41:11,920 --> 01:41:16,000 Speaker 1: all the kind of writers now competing precious limited resources. 1706 01:41:16,000 --> 01:41:19,800 Speaker 1: Pretty soon they're all gonna have TV shows too. Come on, 1707 01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:23,120 Speaker 1: it's great to be here. You guys are fantastic. Thank 1708 01:41:23,120 --> 01:41:42,040 Speaker 1: you very much everyone,