1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,920 Speaker 1: Quody bus, but Joseph's gotten more. I travel a lot 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 1: now at this stage of my life. You think that 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: it's going to be kind of the opposite. You know 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: that you would slow down maybe the more miles you 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: get on your tires. But for me that's sped up, 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: and I go to go to Great Britain a lot now, 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of times a year. It seems 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: I'd be going back again in June. As a matter 9 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: of fact, for crime con The thing that's so attractive 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: to me about London and Great Britain in general is 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: how ancient it is from our sensibilities, not if you're 12 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: a Greek obviously, but anxient enough. And one area in 13 00:00:54,520 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: London in particular is notable cause of maybe some infamous 14 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: things you've heard about it relative to homicide, but because 15 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: an old Roman road ran through it. As a matter 16 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: of fact, that old Roman road made up the outer 17 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: defenses of what was once called not London but Londonium, 18 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: which is the old Roman settlement right along the Thames 19 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: River that runs through the middle of London. Today we're 20 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: going to talk about something I think in our modern 21 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: minds it seems ancient, but really wasn't that long ago, 22 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: just over one hundred years ago that happened that since 23 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: shockwaves through London and by that measure, around the world, 24 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: and that is the murders that occurred in Whitechapel. Those 25 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: murders have been famously connected to one individual that went 26 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: by the name of Jack the Ripper, And the question 27 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: is has his identity as this perpetrator been finally positively identified. 28 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks David no 29 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: a priddle on and on about Great Britain and my 30 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: travels over there, and probably get tired of hearing about it. 31 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: I just wish I could drag you along with me. 32 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 2: Much to do it. 33 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: I think we'd have a glorious time. But you know, 34 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: this last time that Kimmy and I were in London 35 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: for Crome Con, we'll see it would be the London 36 00:02:55,120 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: Crome Con twenty twenty four. We stayed adjacent to where 37 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: the meeting was being held, but we stayed over a 38 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: few extra days because I went and visited universities while 39 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: I was there, and we wound up staying in Whitechapel. 40 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: And I got to tell you, I know you're gonna 41 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: laugh at me. We did a lot of touristy things 42 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: because I'd never spent time in Whitechapel and all of 43 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: my visits to London. So with that said, let me 44 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: tell you what we did that was kind of touristy. 45 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: I love fish and chips, I do. It's better than 46 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: any kind of American fast food. I love fish anyway. 47 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: And you get these big, deep fried, golden pieces of heaven, 48 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: you know, and you put the malt vinegar on it 49 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: and maybe a little tartar sauce and just one the 50 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: pieces are so big, just one piece of fish will 51 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: satisfy you. And it's golden brown, you know. And of 52 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: course they're famous for their chips, which are not chips, 53 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: they're French fries. And then here's the other thing that 54 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: Kim is like really into mushy peas, which are English 55 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: peas that are mashed up with a bit of onion 56 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: and garlic salt in our garlic powder, I think, in them, 57 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: and they're almost like mashed potatoes, and everybody eats them 58 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: and it's an interesting combination. 59 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 2: And I do not have a palette that would survive 60 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 2: that just saying. 61 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: Well, I got it. The reason I'm telling you this. 62 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: The restaurant that we went to, which is right on 63 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,679 Speaker 1: the main drag through the middle of White Chapel where 64 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper probably strode about. The name of the 65 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: chip stand is actually called you ready for this, Jack 66 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: the Chipper, Jack the Chipper. So you know, we went 67 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 1: there like I don't know, three times and eight and 68 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: it was always late at night because their days ran 69 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,799 Speaker 1: so long, and you're always kind of in a funk anyway, 70 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: because the time changed your body. It takes a while 71 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: for your body to get adjusted. For me, it does, 72 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 1: particularly at this age. But the other indulgence that I 73 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: that I have is I love going to the Turkish 74 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,239 Speaker 1: barber shop. And Turkish barbers are all over Great Britain 75 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: and they're amazing at what they do. You know, everything 76 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: from the hot towel around your face to you know, 77 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: the shave with an actual straight razor, which is you know, 78 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:41,480 Speaker 1: kind of I don't know, kind of interesting. In Whitechapel, 79 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: what do you put it that way, and you really 80 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: get tended to. They even give you a glass of whiskey. 81 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: You probably need that just to survive the fear factor 82 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: of going in in the Whitechapel where Jack the Ripper 83 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 2: is known worldwide. And you got a guy with a. 84 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: Yeah and scissors. So anyway, the name of the name 85 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: of the barber is called Jack the Clipper. And so 86 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: I've got pictures. I'll post them of my social media. 87 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: So we went there, and but you know, when we 88 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: went back to the barbershop, Dave, this is when it 89 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: kind of hit me because the roads streets, I say roads, 90 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: but the streets that you run through they're paved, obviously, 91 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: but every now and then you'll see a crack in 92 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: the asphalt and you'll see the old cobblestones that are 93 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: immediately beneath. And just for a moment in my own 94 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: crazy mind, you can hear the clatter of horse hoofs, 95 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: or you can hear the sound of a buggy, you know, 96 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: kind of rumbling down the street. And the streets are 97 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: still very dark. It's very very dark, and everything is 98 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: kind of closed in. And yeah, it's obviously more illuminated 99 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: than it was back in the eighteen eighties, but just 100 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: for a moment, Tom, you can appreciate what a kind 101 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: of interesting environment it would have been in, particularly if 102 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: you're working as a prostitute turning tricks out there on 103 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: these dark looks, and there's these little cubby holes that 104 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: kind of extend. They're kind of like little back alleys, 105 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: and they would actually apply their trade. And not to 106 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: be too inappropriate, but you know, these prostitutes would many 107 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: times conduct their trades standing against a wall, you know, 108 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: with a john that would come along and either that 109 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 1: or they would take them back to and here's an 110 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: interesting bit of trivia as well, take them back to 111 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: their crib. And we hear, you know, we've heard the 112 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: word crib in the modern vernacular for ever and ever, 113 00:07:58,040 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: we're going to go back to the crib. Well, you know, 114 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: the or know the word crib as it applies to 115 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 1: a dwelling actually goes to prostitution. The prostitutes had cribs 116 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: that they would go to, that's what they referred to 117 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: them as. And a lot of these prostitutes had babies, 118 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, they would be you know, in a crib, 119 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: within the crib in the same room while they're turning tricks. 120 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: It was a different world back then. And I hope 121 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: that I've kind of painted the picture from my you know, 122 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: through my own two eyes here relative to the best 123 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: that I can kind of target in for those that 124 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,319 Speaker 1: have never been there. A lot of interesting little areas 125 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: and alcoves in Whitechapel, and you know, you've got big 126 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 1: businesses that have popped up headquarters for all kinds of 127 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: people there, lad Bible, which is internationally known. Actually I 128 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: did an interview on lad Bible taped it there just 129 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: adjacent to Whitechapel. Their studios are there. But you've also 130 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: got a large traditional and I'm saying not recent, but 131 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: traditional immigrant community. This is one of the first places 132 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: where people from Bangladesh that was part of the British 133 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: Empire came to the UK and set up businesses and 134 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: have restaurants and all these sorts of things. And then 135 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: there was a large Jewish population that was also also 136 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: part of this environment, along with other nationalities. So it 137 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: was we talked about being a melting pot here in America. 138 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: I don't think that people really realize the comings and 139 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,079 Speaker 1: goings of immigrants in London because it's all long before 140 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: we ever existed as a country here in the US. 141 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: Great Britain has always been an international city and they 142 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: would hop right off the boat off the Thames, which 143 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: by the way, is I'm not going to say it's 144 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: a stone's throw. But as you start heading south, Whitechapel 145 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: is on the north shore of the Thame, and as 146 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: you start heading south and kind of southwest, you run 147 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: right into the Tower of London Day where you know, 148 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: people were held in prison and all that sort of thing. 149 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: This is an ancient, ancient area. It's where the city 150 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: actually kind of began all those you know, hundreds and 151 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: hundreds of years ago. So this kind of dark specter 152 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: that has always lingered over this area of London, it's 153 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: not necessarily surprising that something so ghastly would happen there, 154 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: and certainly by by the standards of those days, you know, 155 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: you had violence, but to the level that Jack the 156 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: Ripper quote unquote perpetrated these crimes, not nothing like this. 157 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: This is why it kind of grabbed the attention of 158 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: all of the you know, the newspapers and you know 159 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: rags of that day, you know, because everything was really 160 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: over the top with these events and people think, you 161 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: know that people think that Jack the Ripper was limited 162 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: to five to seven victims. It was actually there was 163 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: there was what was called the White Chapel murders. It 164 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: goes under different names. They actually extended out to eighteen 165 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: ninety one, there were actually eleven victims, but not all 166 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: of them had the same mo as Jack the Ripper. 167 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: And that's why what made him think that those were 168 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: part and parcel of this. Because the five Ripper cases 169 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about actually do have a 170 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: number of similarities. But what about the other ones? Are 171 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 2: they dramatically different or just not? Were they earlier or later? 172 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: Did you say they were later? 173 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: Okay? And so I think that some people kind of 174 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: believe that perhaps they were in a way of thinking, 175 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: they may have been kind of a cop cat type 176 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: of event, you know, that kind of went along with 177 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: the narrative of of Jack the Ripper. Now, there was 178 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: one case that occurred, I think it was like April 179 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: the third, eighteen eighty eight. Yeah, the ones that and 180 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: that's kind of outside of the descriptors for the actual 181 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper cases, which you know, I think ran 182 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 1: pretty much through the month of September of eighteen eighty 183 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: eight and wound up going I think the final one 184 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: that they really truly tagged him with was in November 185 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: of night. So they actually occurred over a very short 186 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: period of time. But you had other ones, You had 187 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: other ones that involved things like strangulation. You know what 188 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: I'm saying, that didn't necessarily necessarily fit the mo You 189 00:12:54,000 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 1: had one of the victims that was essentially gain raped, 190 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: and they just didn't fit them. 191 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: And you know what they did with that one, you 192 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,440 Speaker 2: mentioned the gang. You know, they actually tried that one 193 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: and ended up attributing it. They even though it didn't 194 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 2: match up, there was no evidence or anything else. They 195 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 2: they I think were like caught up in the swell 196 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 2: of the two and I think they just added it 197 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: to it because they didn't have a solved crime with it. 198 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 2: You know, it was a gang and it was because 199 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 2: I read up on those It was so funny, funny, 200 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:31,199 Speaker 2: strange because when they had this one, it was different, 201 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: and yet they took it to trial. 202 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, here's an interesting thing, David, you 203 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: know this area, I've been uh, you know, I've been 204 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 1: kind of you know with my amusements about this and 205 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: being kind of lighthearted. But these are real people, you know, 206 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: were real real people, and these were really you know, violent, 207 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: violent events that affected it. But you know, one of 208 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: the things, and this is kind of a thread that 209 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: runs through a lot of a lot of cases, even 210 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: now to this day, these were the poorest of the poor. 211 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: I mean, this was a slum area. And you know, 212 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: sometimes you know, I've talked to police officers that police 213 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: and really impoverished areas, and it's not necessarily that the 214 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: police don't want to do anything about it. Many times 215 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: it's because the people that are let's see that should 216 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: be the governmental benefactors of the individual that are intigen 217 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: and poor, don't put resources and nothing. You know, they say, 218 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: nothing's new under the sun. So the fact that these 219 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: poor women who were turning tricks in dark alleys, uh, 220 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, with their babies maybe there and that sort 221 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: of thing. You know, they're they're forgotten, easily forgotten. Now 222 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: that this has happened adjacent to Buckingham Palace, uh, you know, 223 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: we it very well may have been a for an 224 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: outcome and it may have ceased a lot quicker. Here's 225 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: an interesting little aside too, and I you know, look, 226 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: I got to interject a little bit of my background 227 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: relative to working serial deaths, Dave. I've only been involved 228 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: in one set of serialized homicides where they weren't prostitutes, 229 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: and that was a group of elderly ladies that had 230 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: been strangled and sexually assault and strangled to death. Every 231 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: other series, whether it was New Orleans or Atlanta over 232 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 1: the course of my career, always always involved prostitutes every 233 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: single time, So, you know, going back to the old 234 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: adage of nothing new under the sun. I've never had 235 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: cases though, like the Ripper where you had individuals that 236 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: were mutilated, and mutilation plays a big part in this, 237 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: and that's I think that that was really the start 238 00:15:57,680 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: of what was going on. The cases that I worked 239 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: primarily dealt with manual strangulation, literature strangulation, or execution style 240 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: gunshot wents to the back of the head. But they 241 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: were all to a person. Prostitutes I never worked. I 242 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: know a lot of I've had colleagues, you know, that 243 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 1: have worked cases over the years. You think of the 244 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: Golden State Killer out West obviously, where you had just 245 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: just random people that were being killed in their homes 246 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, for instance. Those poor women were not prostitutes, 247 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, primarily young college students, those sorts of things. 248 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,920 Speaker 1: But for me, and I think that a lot of 249 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: people that work in death investigation most are going to 250 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: be and it's that they're so easily targeted and that 251 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: they're attaining some kind of thrill off of this that 252 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 1: is the perpetrator and they're easily victimized. And again that 253 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: cycles back to this idea that it makes the cases 254 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: somewhat very difficult to solve. And of course, here we 255 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: are all these years later, Dave, from the eighteen eighties 256 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: to as we're taping right now, twenty twenty five, where 257 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: these cases still give us pause to scratch our head 258 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: and maybe, just maybe, as a result of recent information, 259 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: we're one step closer to solving one of the biggest 260 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: true crime mysteries of all time. Had the opportunity, and 261 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: I've mentioned this man before, to work with a fellow 262 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: named William Eckert. Doctor Eckert was a forensic pathologist, rather 263 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: famous in his time, and doctor Eckert, toward the end 264 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: of his career, well, I guess it was kind of 265 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: later mid range of his career, traveled all over the 266 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: world consulting on cases. And one of the one of 267 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: the cases that he did are cases plural that he 268 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,199 Speaker 1: consulted on was Jack the Ripper, And you know, he 269 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: was I think probably one of the first people to 270 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: visit Scotland yard. He took a look at a lot 271 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: of the evidence that still existed, police reports, those sorts 272 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: of things, and you know, visited sites and this is 273 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: back I think in the nineteen seventies, and he drew 274 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: some conclusions during that period of time. And I remember asking, 275 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 1: because I'd never really had a huge overriding interest in 276 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: the Ripper cases. I just and when you work, when 277 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: you're working in death investigation, it's like, it's not like 278 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: people that do death investigation as a profession sit around 279 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: and watch through crime. It's not like, you know, it's 280 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: a busman's holiday. It's not something that we're necessarily interested in. 281 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 1: But because he had been drawn into it, I was 282 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: We had just finished up an autopsy one day, and 283 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: I remember asking doctor Eckert, specifically doctor Eckert, I'm fascinated 284 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: by the fact that you went to Great Britain and 285 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: that you've consulted with Scotland Yard on the Ripper cases. 286 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,719 Speaker 1: You know, a few years back, I said, what's your 287 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: overwriting opinion here? You know what you believe? And he 288 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: told me at that time, and I think that this 289 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: was probably pretty widely known, but to hear it coming 290 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 1: from him, a guy that works with scalpels and dissecting 291 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: knives and scissors every single day of his life and 292 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: had at that point in time, for over thirty years. 293 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: He pointedly said to me, this guy was skilled with 294 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: edged weapons based upon everything that he had seen, and 295 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: that you know that really, I'm not going to say 296 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: it's sent a chill up my spine, but it did 297 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: give me an insight I think into what those people 298 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,480 Speaker 1: may have been looking at back then, and it you know, 299 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: I think that we're all of us would be fools 300 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: to assume that they didn't have violent crime back then. 301 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: They didn't have people that were mutilated. A lot of 302 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 1: people carried knives. They didn't just carry knives merely to 303 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: protect themselves. They carried knives because they were integral in 304 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: day to day life, you know, cutting things and prying things. 305 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: People carried knives back then, so it would not have 306 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: been unusual for somebody to carry a knife. But when 307 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: you begin to think about skill that goes to training, 308 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: doesn't it. It goes to a certain touch, if you will. 309 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 1: And so when doctor Eckert said that to me, it 310 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 1: really kind of grabbed me. 311 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,400 Speaker 2: Well, Joe, when we look at these the five specific 312 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 2: ripper murders that all showed a talent medically speaking, that's 313 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 2: a pretty big deal when you're looking at the eighteen eighties, 314 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 2: it's not like what we have now with the education 315 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 2: we have. You've walked me through how medical schools have 316 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: come to be and what is and isn't expected from 317 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: back then. But what kind of a person would develop 318 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 2: these kind of skills that would not be known to 319 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 2: law enforcement? I mean, you mentioned barber, but is there 320 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: any other field where a person would develop the kind 321 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 2: of biological knowledge necessary to be able to do this. 322 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: There's a plethora of them. Anybody that worked in anybody 323 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: that worked in a butcher shop, anybody that worked in 324 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 1: a slaughterhouse. For those of you that have never been 325 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: to a slaughterhouse, which I have been, it's if you 326 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: think that morgs are ghastly, you cannot imagine carnage on 327 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: on an assembly line level. And I've I've you know, 328 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: I've I've been to you know, chicken slaughter houses. I've 329 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 1: been to hog hog uh slaughter houses, and it's it's 330 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: something to behold on it. And when you're holding a 331 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: knife in your hand, uh, you you just develop a 332 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: skill set. It's like swinging a golf club or a 333 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: baseball bat, or even using a sewing needle. It's just 334 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: it's uh, or if you're a cobbler, uh, working on shoes. 335 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. Do cobbler still exist? I think they do. 336 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: They do. Yeah, But you know, it's just not to 337 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: say the cobblers, you know what I'm just saying. It's 338 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: just a skill set. You know that like cobbling with shoes, 339 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: you know, taking soles off and all that stuff. You've 340 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: become really good with hammers, right, you become really good 341 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: with tax and nails and all that sort of stuff. 342 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: And so yeah, we've got you know, we've got groups 343 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: of individuals that work at slaughterhouses. And there there were 344 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: open markets. As a matter of fact, one of the 345 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: biggest markets in in London is immediately adjacent to Whitechapel. 346 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, it was that particular market 347 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: supplied the royal family with a lot of their goods 348 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 1: and they would slaughter animals, you know, right there. So 349 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: you've got those individuals. It wasn't done in some distant 350 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 1: location where to be trucked in, because they didn't truck 351 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: stuff in back then. You had to do it there 352 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: because they knew that the meat would ride. Then, of course, 353 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: you know you had mentioned you had mentioned barbers. Well, 354 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: there's a long tradition of barbers going back hundreds and 355 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: hundreds of years where these individuals were not just there 356 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 1: to cut your hair, but they were also there to 357 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: do surgeries as well. That's one of the significance of 358 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 1: the barber pole. You know, the white stripe, the blue stripe, 359 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: and the red stripe. Every time you see that, those 360 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: colors are emblematic of different skills sets, and that poll 361 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: goes back a long long time, and that was to 362 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: give people an indication that if you, you know, if 363 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: you need a tumor removed from your neck, or if 364 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: you need a trim, come on in, we'll take care 365 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: of it. We'll take care of it. That puts the 366 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: whole jack the clipper thing all in a new perspective, 367 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: doesn't it. They did not offer to do surgery on 368 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: me there, but I have no doubt that they would 369 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: have been rather skilled. And then you have those that 370 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: are involved in medicine day, you had surgeons and for 371 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: many years there was a through line, a thread that 372 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: ran through everything that gave you an indication that well, 373 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people have opined over the years. Everybody's 374 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: got an opinion. You know, that this was some kind 375 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: of maniac surgeon that was running about. And one of 376 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: the indications was that I think either one or two 377 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: of the women had had their wombs removed. And that's 378 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: that's a you know, that's a very specific anatomical feature 379 00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: that you're looking for. And by the way, having worked 380 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: in the morgue all those years, the two see how 381 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: can I put this in order to remove female internal 382 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: sex organs is not something that's easily undertaken without a 383 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: level of skill, you know what I'm saying. It's something 384 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: that it takes a bit. Well, first off, you have 385 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: to have specific anatomical knowledge, and not to say that 386 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: the uterus the womb is not located approximating the same 387 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: location say in a hog or you know, in some 388 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: other goat or sheep. But you know, with the way 389 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 1: our anatomical orientation is set up, it's a bit different, 390 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: and that specific, that specific organ in and of itself, 391 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: a lot can be implied. Well, you know, some people 392 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: thought that, you know, if the womb is being removed, 393 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: that it would be for some type of medical purpose. 394 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,399 Speaker 1: Perhaps I don't know what that might be. Maybe it 395 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: was just an exploration of female anatomy. But Dave, you 396 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: know now kind of understanding just at a baseline for 397 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: you and I both because neither one of us are 398 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: forensic psychologists. That's if this wasn't sexualized enough, that's very sexualized. 399 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: And then what are you going to do with it 400 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: once you get it? Are you in it? 401 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 2: Is it? Is it a trophy? I mean precisely, But 402 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 2: let me ask you something quickly because I'm concerned that 403 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 2: you know, we're talking about an intense knowledge driven anatomical 404 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 2: you know, pulling out of something, and yet we're talking 405 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 2: about Whitechapel, which is dark, dank, scary at its best. 406 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 2: So when doing this type of carnage require light to 407 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,640 Speaker 2: do it, I mean, when you need to have enough 408 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 2: light to see what you were doing. 409 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: Well, brother, that goes to skill again, right, I mean, 410 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that there are people out there that 411 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: could do surgery in the dark, however, or autopsy in 412 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: the dark. First off, I've cut myself many times at autopsies. 413 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: I'd certainly be missing a finger, you know, if you 414 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,719 Speaker 1: try to do it in the dark. But you know, 415 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: you still have. It's that tactile nature. So let's just 416 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: say they're using I don't know if that area was electrified. 417 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: I doubt that it was at that early on. I 418 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: would imagine street lights were probably I'm sure that they 419 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: had gas lamps at that point in time, but you know, 420 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: you're still talking about I guess they could have had. 421 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: I can't imagine the poorest of the poor in the 422 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 1: slum having access to a gas line coming into a crib, 423 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: you know, a prostitute. And some of these women were 424 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: found in yards, Dave. They're founding yards and alleyways. They're 425 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:16,679 Speaker 1: not necessarily found within the crib itself. So to have 426 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: them kind of lying about that goes to your point, 427 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 1: doesn't it. This was done outdoors at night with whatever 428 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,719 Speaker 1: this individual is carrying on their person. And here's another 429 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: interesting tidbit to all of this. It's this idea of 430 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: the leather apron. You know, because you've got many of 431 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: the prosecutes that were interviewed at that particular time had 432 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: stated that whoever this individual was, he he has a 433 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: rather hair suit, mustache, and he's wearing a leather apron. Well, 434 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: who wear who in the world would wear a leather apron. Well, 435 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: back then you didn't. I mean, they had vulcanized rubber. 436 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: But you know, in the Morgue people wore rubber aprons, 437 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: but not back then, people all wore leather. Surgeons wore 438 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: leather aprons, if not cloth, something that they could take 439 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: off and be washed, but leather aprons even I've seen 440 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: images of them from the Civil War, for instance, and 441 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: there are things that can be you can apply water 442 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: and soap to it and just kind of wash it off. 443 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: And butchers wore leather aprons. Medical professionals probably wore leather aprons. 444 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: I think the big question is would a barber wear 445 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: a leather apron or would they merely wear some kind 446 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: of overcoat, you know, or like almost like a lab coat. 447 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: But I would suspect that many of them wore leather aprons. Well, 448 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: why would you want to do that? And why would 449 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: that individual be walking around? Who's gonna you know, I 450 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: guess if you saw somebody back then with a leather 451 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: apron on walking about, you would assume that there's some 452 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: kind of tradesmen right that they're you know, uh, that 453 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: they're going from, you know, wherever it is they make 454 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: barrels or make shoes, or or maybe working a butcher 455 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 1: in a slaughterhouse, they're going to wear a leather apron. 456 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: But that, you know that that goes to the idea 457 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: that the individuals trying to protect their clothing and trying 458 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: to protect themselves from from being splashed with blood, not 459 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: that they necessarily had the DNA h Carl Einstein or 460 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: hadn't even come a wrong yet to invent blood typing, 461 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: that that would be a couple of decades later. You 462 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: know it, You're you're you're trying to protect your clothing 463 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: so that you don't get uh, you know, spattered with 464 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: blood at that point in time. So you've got these 465 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: little threads that kind of run run along with this 466 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 1: individual where you're looking at the subject that would have 467 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: done it. And we can talk all day about motivation. 468 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: Is it is it an individual that and I think 469 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: that we you and I both day can answer in 470 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: the affirmative that absolutely hated women because we don't have 471 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: any male victims. There's no male victims that we know 472 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: about from that period of time that are disemboweled, which 473 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: we have. We've got throat throats being cut, we've got 474 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: disfigurement in one where it's just ghastly. If you've ever 475 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: seen some of the images where they're twisted and mangled, 476 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: I mean, and and the amount, the amount of trauma 477 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: that these poor souls were subjected to, Dave, this would 478 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: take a copious amount of time to do this. This 479 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 1: is not like something that where you stick a knife 480 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: into their throat or slit their throat and then walk away. 481 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: This is somebody that truly truly hated these women. Who 482 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: knows what this kind of seed of evil was that 483 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: you know kind of endwell this, but I do know 484 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: this that with every slice, with every cut, with every puncture, 485 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: with every mutilation, with every droplet of blood that was 486 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: found pulled in the yards, in the rooms and on 487 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 1: the streets of Whitechapel, that stain to this day it 488 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: still exists. Dave. I'm viewing you here on the camera 489 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: and Bubba looks like you've got a fresh haircut. YEA, 490 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: thank you your hair. You look good man. I got 491 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: to tell you, yeah, dude's got a great, great crown 492 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: of white hair. I'll tell you what. Well, uh, there's 493 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: a barber we're going to talk about. 494 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 2: Me and Santa have great hair on her head and 495 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: great bellies above our way. So there you go. 496 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: Oh man, come on, old belly. Uh yet the barber 497 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about is a fellow named Aaron Kasminsky, 498 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: and he is known to have been a Polish immigrant. 499 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 2: Can I add something here very quickly? 500 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? 501 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: Sure, all right. It's something I didn't know about the 502 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 2: story until you and I started talking about and we 503 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 2: talked about it from the end and going back that 504 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 2: there was a lot of press coverage of these murders. 505 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: There was a lot of chatter social media. Would have 506 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 2: been said of Twitter, although people might not have used Twitter, 507 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: but you know what I mean, It was a much 508 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,479 Speaker 2: talked about thing. They were constantly throwing out ideas and 509 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 2: the media was highly involved in sharing rumors and drawings 510 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 2: of people that were victimized or possible suspects. This was 511 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 2: a case that drew a lot of attention and sold 512 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: a lot of papers. And in looking at what some 513 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 2: of the investigators did to try to find, you know, 514 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 2: a solution, they it was just amazing to me. This 515 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: was not something that when you mentioned it earlier. First 516 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: of all, it only lasted a couple of months, you know, 517 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,840 Speaker 2: in these five main ones. Now, the others could certainly 518 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: be part of it, but just these five. We're talking 519 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 2: from August thirty first to November the ninth in eighteen 520 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 2: eighty eight. That's not a very big window. And I 521 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 2: don't assume that mary Ann Nichols was butchered the way 522 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,720 Speaker 2: she was as a first attack. And it just seems 523 00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 2: like they did escalate from there. From Maryann Nichols attack 524 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,919 Speaker 2: to Annie Chapman's attack to Elizabeth Stride, each one got 525 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 2: progressively different and worse. But there was that dread running 526 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 2: through that tied them all together. So there's got to 527 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:09,879 Speaker 2: be more. 528 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, I think that there has to be. 529 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 1: And there's a boldness that, you know that kind of 530 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 1: sets in with this, but you know, in in the 531 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 1: modern context now, I think that for us, what's so 532 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 1: striking about this recent news that has dropped. Not only 533 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: do we have a person that is named now because 534 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: of one alleged sampling that has been done relative to 535 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: a genetic finding, this Aaron Kominsky, but we have to 536 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: think about the source. You know, where did this come from. 537 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: We've got this connection now from DNA linkage from a 538 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: shawl that was possessed and owned by essentially the fifth 539 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: victim from September thirtieth, eighteen eighty eight, Catherine Edwardson and Dave. 540 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: I've seen the shawl. The shawl. You know, the shawl 541 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: is nothing like I thought that it would look like 542 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: because I was thinking, you know, when I think shawl, 543 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: I think kind of a loose woven you know, kind 544 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: of what am I saying? Almost looks like an Afghan 545 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: I guess, kind of, you know what I'm saying. It's 546 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: not like that. The shawl is actually even today, I'm 547 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: actually sitting here, you know, taking a look at this 548 00:36:51,719 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: thing is actually quite beautiful. It's a it's in two colors. 549 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: It's tightly, tightly woven. I would imagine that this that 550 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: this shawl is primarily made of wool, and you know, 551 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: Great Britain was known for the wool trade, and it's 552 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: been dyed. It's in two different colors. One color is 553 00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: this striking kind of light blue color, and the rest 554 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: of it there's a distinctive dividing line that has almost 555 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: a silky looking appearance to it, that's a copper tone 556 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 1: to it. And it's it's tightly woven. It's it's literally 557 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: something that if you put it around your shoulders, you're 558 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: not going to uh, you're not going to fill the breeze, 559 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: if you will, the cold kind of seeping through. It's 560 00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: quite lovely actually to see. So when I think about 561 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: out the h the deposition of any kind of of 562 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: DNA or biological evidence that might be found on there, 563 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 1: you could see how it could get down into those 564 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: really tightly woven fibers and be retained. Here's here's kind 565 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: of the interesting thing though, it's through this shawl. And 566 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: by the way, this this individual's uh Russell Edwards is 567 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: his name. Who is the actual owner of the shawl? 568 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 2: And was this something passed down? Was he related or 569 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:32,240 Speaker 2: is a body auction? 570 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,919 Speaker 1: That's the one. That's the one trick to this that 571 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: I've been unable to kind of put together succinctly. I 572 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: do know that this this journey starts back in two 573 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 1: thousand and six, so we're talking now, uh to two 574 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: decades I guess now, well one almost two decades since 575 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: this journey kind of started. Relative to this, this this item, 576 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, what's the provenance of this? How did he 577 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: actually come into possession of this? And he started looking 578 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 1: at attempting because he knew what he had was connected 579 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: to a victim. You know, you would think that something 580 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 1: like a shawl like this would be retained, you know, 581 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: by the Metropolitan Police, which is Scotland yard. But you 582 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 1: know how many thousands and thousands of crimes have they 583 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: had that involve physical evidence? Since anybody wondering eighteen eighty 584 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: something's there's not enough room in the world to store 585 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: all of this stuff. 586 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 2: In particular case of that shawl, though, it actually was 587 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 2: a sergeant on duty and who actually he was acting 588 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 2: Sergeant Amos Simpson is the guy who was near the 589 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 2: crime scene and he's the one that got Catherine shawl 590 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 2: and he's the one that passed it down to family 591 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,120 Speaker 2: members until it pops up in two thousand and seven 592 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 2: and author Russell Edwards buys it. But according to Amos, 593 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 2: you know Simpson, this was the shaw that he picked 594 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 2: up near the scene. Well again, but where's the where's 595 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 2: the trade the Yeah? 596 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: I know exactly. You begin to think about the provenance 597 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: of the of the Let me see, how can I 598 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,760 Speaker 1: say this of the evidence? Yeah, the chain of custody, 599 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, thank you? I had did I did too? 600 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 2: I was looking at you, going please, yeah, there's no 601 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 2: change of custody here. We have to try to Amos 602 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 2: Simpson recovered this shawl and then because they didn't have 603 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:44,759 Speaker 2: paper bags, I don't know what they had then. I 604 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 2: was gonna say, didn't have plastic bags. But they would 605 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,720 Speaker 2: have used paper bags or cloth to store something like this, right, probably. 606 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,680 Speaker 1: Cloth, I would imagine, particularly for a bloody item that 607 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,319 Speaker 1: they didn't want to And they didn't wear gloves, so 608 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: you would unless they had leather gloves on. 609 00:40:58,920 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 2: Right. 610 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, you imagine taking those off and sticking them 611 00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: back in your pocket and your wife says, hey, can 612 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: I bar your gloves and all manner of things that 613 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: you've that you've touched. But yeah, and so here, here's 614 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 1: here's the thing for me. If he's present, this acting sergeant, 615 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:22,399 Speaker 1: if he's present at the scene, he's picked this thing up, 616 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 1: you would expect you would expect the victims DNA to 617 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: be on it. Okay, So what's the sourcing? What you know? 618 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 1: Where where did her DNA come from? Uh? Was it 619 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: blood or was it some other bodily fluid that had 620 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: leached onto the surface. But here's the big thing, Dave, 621 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: here's a big thing. If we're looking at Aaron Kaminsky, 622 00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: who by the way, is Polish, but he's also Jewish, 623 00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: and there's been a thread of anti Semitism that has 624 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,239 Speaker 1: and through this for a long long time, I mean 625 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: dating well back decades, I think, you know, relative to 626 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: suspects where they were trying to put it on a 627 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: particular member of an immigrant population. I think that we 628 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: have to take due care in that as well, because 629 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: if Aaron Kaminsky was known to anybody with the met 630 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: and they had it in for him, how did they 631 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 1: you know, did they get a blood source for him 632 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 1: or is And it would be also important is this 633 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,200 Speaker 1: a seminal? This is this ejaculate that was left behind 634 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: on the shawl? And now we can say, you know, 635 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: I think you can say pretty confidently that if it's ejaculate, 636 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: then that bit of DNA would be harder to come by, say, 637 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: for instance, if it were you know, a touch of 638 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,759 Speaker 1: his blood that was placed on it or whatever. But 639 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 1: you know, that still doesn't make sense because as I said, 640 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,399 Speaker 1: blood type, and it's not something that was done at 641 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,719 Speaker 1: that point in time. It's not something certainly you know, 642 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 1: blood typing itself. I mentioned Carl Landsteiner a few moments ago. 643 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: Blood typing itself when it first came into being, was 644 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,399 Speaker 1: not for the purposes of crime science on any level. 645 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 1: It was trying to find a match that we could 646 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 1: do transfusions. And again we could do a whole episode 647 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: on that. They actually used to try to use Lamb's 648 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,840 Speaker 1: blood to transfuse people with and as you can imagine 649 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,319 Speaker 1: and work out too well, sheep's blood and so you 650 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: know that, you know, trial and error and so. But anyway, 651 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,920 Speaker 1: I digress the fact that you do have both of 652 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,359 Speaker 1: these individuals, the victim and Aaron Kuzminski. You have his 653 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: DNA that is present here and Dave, this is not 654 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,719 Speaker 1: something that's passing. I don't want you to think that 655 00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: that this is something that you know, no insult intended, 656 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:09,000 Speaker 1: but it's not something that the London Sun merely conjured up. Okay, 657 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: this was actually written up in the Journal of Forensic Science, 658 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: which is one of the most esteemed academic journals in 659 00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:23,840 Speaker 1: forensic science that exists. This paper, I think, first appeared 660 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:30,560 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen. This is something that has been in 661 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: the process of occurring low these many years. Now here's 662 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: the big question. Okay, just because you have and I 663 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 1: hate to rain on everybody's parade here, but just because 664 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,919 Speaker 1: you have Aaron Kosminski's DNA deposition on that shawl, which 665 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: again you cannot necessarily verify the provenance of. 666 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 2: Okay, it would not hold up in court. 667 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,120 Speaker 1: No, not in our course. I don't even think that 668 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,399 Speaker 1: it would hold up in the courts then, But does 669 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: it mean that he's necessarily connected to the other homicides 670 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,439 Speaker 1: that occur. So you've only got connectivity to this one 671 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 1: individual right now, And the odds that they're going to 672 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,640 Speaker 1: have any other kind of physical evidence that can tie 673 00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:25,320 Speaker 1: it back, that can tie it back to this individual 674 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,240 Speaker 1: I think would probably be slim and none right now. 675 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,840 Speaker 1: And at this point, Tom at least that's to my 676 00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:34,040 Speaker 1: way of thinking. I don't know how you feel about it, 677 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:35,760 Speaker 1: but that's just my thought. 678 00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,439 Speaker 2: I actually I did the same thing in my head, Joe. 679 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 2: I pulled a Nancy Grace and played Devil's advocate for 680 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 2: a minute, and I'm like, Okay, if we were in 681 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,800 Speaker 2: a court of law, this would never make it because 682 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,719 Speaker 2: of the chain of custody on the shawl in and 683 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,000 Speaker 2: of itself. We have to trust Amos Simpson, and we 684 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 2: don't know anything about him in terms of his He 685 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,000 Speaker 2: could be another Mark Furman for all we know. Yeah, 686 00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,440 Speaker 2: but in the court of public opinion, we actually have 687 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 2: a shawl that was from the crime scene. We have 688 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 2: an actual police officer who collected the shaw as evidence, 689 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:08,800 Speaker 2: you know, for the future. But they couldn't do anything 690 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 2: with it then it was just a piece of evidence 691 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 2: that was attached to the victim. And so assuming we 692 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:18,320 Speaker 2: can make a few assumptions here and based on those 693 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,720 Speaker 2: assumptions that everything's the way it should be, then testing 694 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,319 Speaker 2: and coming back with a positive result that actually is 695 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,000 Speaker 2: a person who actually fits the profile of the potential 696 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 2: suspect in the crime. I think it's again part of 697 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 2: public opinion, we could get a conviction. 698 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,759 Speaker 1: Well, I got to tell you the met Scotland Yard, 699 00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: they actually had a Kosminsky Komensky am I pronouncing not 700 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: correctly Cosminsky. They actually had an individual listed on their 701 00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,320 Speaker 1: suspect list, but they had have it listed with a 702 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,360 Speaker 1: first name. But they did in fact say that the 703 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:08,160 Speaker 1: individual was in an insane asylum. And as it turns out, uh, 704 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: this individual wasn't an insane asylum, uh, and eventually died 705 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: in one and of all things, he had been committed 706 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,680 Speaker 1: are you ready for this? For threatening his sister with 707 00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: a knife, and he had had you know, he had 708 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:31,879 Speaker 1: had other problems quote unquote, if you will along the way. So, yeah, 709 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,880 Speaker 1: does he does he fit a particular type? Well? Yeah, 710 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,040 Speaker 1: I'd say that he would be a good candidate if 711 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,400 Speaker 1: you and I were working a case like this now, 712 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 1: he would certainly be somebody I would want to sit 713 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,319 Speaker 1: down and have as the let's keep this British here 714 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,319 Speaker 1: to have a chin wag with over you know, over 715 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: his whereabouts and his connectivity to any of these women, 716 00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: where he was domiciled, where he was living at this 717 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:03,319 Speaker 1: particular time. Was he actually functioning as a barber? And 718 00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: they don't just here's something else that's interesting. They don't 719 00:48:06,719 --> 00:48:10,320 Speaker 1: just list his occupation as a barber but also a hairdresser. 720 00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: So I'm wondering, you know, is he attending to women? 721 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 1: Because in the modern modern parlance, you know, when you 722 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,600 Speaker 1: think hairdresser, I don't know about you. I still go 723 00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: to a guy named Pete to get my hair cut. 724 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 1: I don't go to a hairdresser. Hairdresser that term is 725 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: generally associated with women having their hairstyle Wow, isn't that 726 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,839 Speaker 1: kind of fascinating as well when you begin to think 727 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,560 Speaker 1: about that. And I know I'm running kind of far 728 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:42,400 Speaker 1: afield here, but here he is lingering over over ladies perhaps, 729 00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 1: and he's quote unquote dressing their hair, and all the 730 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:50,880 Speaker 1: while he's circulating around them with sharp objects, you know, 731 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 1: fascinated by them. And I can't imagine that a prostitute 732 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,719 Speaker 1: necessarily would have the type of money that would be 733 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:04,919 Speaker 1: required to go to a formal hairdresser. I've actually had 734 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,359 Speaker 1: cases involving serialized homicides, one in particular that stands out 735 00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,440 Speaker 1: that I had a gentleman that every time he would 736 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: go and get into a fight with his girlfriend, he 737 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,560 Speaker 1: would go out and kill a prostitute. And so there's 738 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,840 Speaker 1: that transference of anger, you know, that takes place. I 739 00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 1: don't know, it's just look, we could speculate about this 740 00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,120 Speaker 1: all day long, but I think that it's interesting. It's 741 00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:37,080 Speaker 1: certainly interesting. I felt like that you and I were 742 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,799 Speaker 1: you know, that we needed to talk about this on 743 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:44,879 Speaker 1: body backs, because let's face it, whether you're interested in 744 00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,480 Speaker 1: crime science or true crime or not, you have to 745 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: admit that after all of these years, as we look 746 00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 1: back through decades and article and verbiage and conversations and 747 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:07,200 Speaker 1: whispers and rumors and everything. When it comes down to it, 748 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:13,240 Speaker 1: those events that occurred in Whitechapel all those years ago, 749 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,920 Speaker 1: that was really the first time that we begin to 750 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:23,400 Speaker 1: think about a serialized event. Now, obviously it wasn't called 751 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:28,000 Speaker 1: that back then, but this is the first, I believe, 752 00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:35,759 Speaker 1: and certainly the most widely known serial perpetrator in history. 753 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.