WEBVTT - Leaving a Religious Cult 0:00:14.916 --> 0:00:32.036 Pushkin. My mom used to actually say this about the Bible. 0:00:32.036 --> 0:00:35.076 You can some of the Bible in three words, obey, obey, obey. 0:00:35.996 --> 0:00:38.756 Megan felps Roper grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church, 0:00:38.996 --> 0:00:42.156 a religious cult out of Topeka, Kansas that's often called 0:00:42.196 --> 0:00:46.596 the most obnoxious and rapid hate group in America. Meghan 0:00:46.756 --> 0:00:50.476 was a fervent believer in everything Westborough stood for, but 0:00:50.596 --> 0:00:53.036 when she was in her mid twenties, Meghan decided to 0:00:53.116 --> 0:00:57.076 leave it all behind, her family, her community, and everything 0:00:57.156 --> 0:01:00.156 she had ever believed to be true. It felt like 0:01:00.236 --> 0:01:03.756 this physical, like like I had a giant boulder sitting 0:01:03.756 --> 0:01:06.596 on my chest and I couldn't breathe, and I couldn't 0:01:06.596 --> 0:01:09.716 see around it, and I had no vision of the future. 0:01:09.756 --> 0:01:12.236 I had no idea what my life was going to 0:01:12.316 --> 0:01:16.476 look like today. A story of someone who was absolutely 0:01:16.516 --> 0:01:20.996 persuaded by terrible ideas until one day she changed her mind. 0:01:22.116 --> 0:01:24.996 I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:25.436 --> 0:01:27.836 a show that dives deep into the world of change 0:01:28.196 --> 0:01:30.876 and hopefully gets us to think differently at that change 0:01:30.956 --> 0:01:55.636 in our own lives. All right, Megan, So I'd love 0:01:55.676 --> 0:01:59.596 to start from the beginning. Your grandfather started the Westboro 0:01:59.676 --> 0:02:02.436 Baptist Church, right, tell me more about the church. So 0:02:02.476 --> 0:02:05.556 what did you guys believe in. We believed that we 0:02:05.556 --> 0:02:08.516 were the elect of God, this very small remnant that 0:02:08.556 --> 0:02:12.236 was bound for heaven, and that basically almost everyone else 0:02:12.276 --> 0:02:15.076 in the world was headed for hell, that God had 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:18.796 condemned them because of their sins. And so for me, 0:02:19.036 --> 0:02:20.916 how I came into that was when I was five 0:02:20.956 --> 0:02:25.156 years old, my family started protesting, protesting all across the country, 0:02:25.636 --> 0:02:28.676 usually several times a week, and every single day in 0:02:28.756 --> 0:02:33.716 my hometown. Our most infamous message was God Hates fags. 0:02:34.196 --> 0:02:38.876 So it started as a protest movement against the LGBTQ community, 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:42.436 but as I say, like it very quickly expanded to 0:02:42.596 --> 0:02:46.956 include everybody who wasn't part of our church. Were you 0:02:47.036 --> 0:02:50.076 able to comprehend what those signs were even saying did 0:02:50.076 --> 0:02:52.956 you understand what it is that you were actually protesting? 0:02:52.956 --> 0:02:56.156 To bring it back to that scene, yeah, So after 0:02:56.236 --> 0:02:59.076 church it started. After church one Sunday, we kind of 0:02:59.116 --> 0:03:02.636 piled into our vehicles and drove It was about a 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:04.356 half a mile. This park was about a half a 0:03:04.396 --> 0:03:07.236 mile from the church, and we walked out there with 0:03:07.276 --> 0:03:09.516 these signs I couldn't read at the time. Of course, 0:03:09.556 --> 0:03:12.836 it was just before I started kindergarten, and I remember, 0:03:12.916 --> 0:03:15.916 you know, people of course were very angry the messages 0:03:15.916 --> 0:03:18.236 on our signs. Uh. You know, one of the very 0:03:18.276 --> 0:03:22.076 early ones what said gays are worthy of death. And 0:03:22.396 --> 0:03:25.236 you know, people saw those signs and were immediately inflamed. 0:03:25.516 --> 0:03:27.516 And people would start like driving their cars at us, 0:03:28.356 --> 0:03:30.316 jumping out of their cars, like parking in the middle 0:03:30.316 --> 0:03:33.036 of the street, you know, these busy thoroughfare and to 0:03:33.076 --> 0:03:35.276 come after us on foot. And so you know, my 0:03:35.356 --> 0:03:38.116 dad and and the kind of older men in the 0:03:38.236 --> 0:03:40.956 church would come and try to, you know, form a 0:03:41.196 --> 0:03:44.156 kind of barricade between us and you know, counter protesters 0:03:44.196 --> 0:03:47.876 and people who came out to attack us. And at 0:03:47.876 --> 0:03:50.876 the time, of course, I did not understand Westboro's theology 0:03:50.916 --> 0:03:54.916 in all of its particulars. But the main theme that 0:03:54.956 --> 0:03:58.836 I understood was about obedience. And this was a theme 0:03:58.876 --> 0:04:01.396 that was you know, constantly harped upon in my family. 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:03.996 So it's the idea that if you obey God, how 0:04:04.036 --> 0:04:06.436 bless you. And if you disobey God, then he will 0:04:06.476 --> 0:04:09.796 curse you. And so my family taught me that this 0:04:09.836 --> 0:04:12.196 was the definition of love. What we were doing to 0:04:12.356 --> 0:04:15.676 go out and warn people of the consequences of their 0:04:15.716 --> 0:04:18.676 sins that if they continue to go down this path 0:04:18.876 --> 0:04:24.316 of supporting you know, the LGBTQ community, or fornication or adultery, 0:04:24.476 --> 0:04:27.676 you know, which my family and church defined as to 0:04:27.796 --> 0:04:31.116 include divorce and remarriage. To go down this path is 0:04:31.116 --> 0:04:35.756 to incur necessarily the curses of God. We considered it 0:04:35.796 --> 0:04:39.076 a great privilege that we got to go and speak 0:04:39.116 --> 0:04:42.236 the truth into this, you know, the language that he used. 0:04:42.596 --> 0:04:44.476 We get to go in and inject a little Bible 0:04:44.516 --> 0:04:47.796 truth into this insane orgy of fag lies. That's how 0:04:47.796 --> 0:04:51.396 we put it, and that's how they talked about, you know, 0:04:51.516 --> 0:04:55.316 death generally, it could never be just you know, somebody 0:04:55.396 --> 0:04:58.356 dying of natural causes, you know, of old age or something. 0:04:58.396 --> 0:05:00.516 It's like, no, this was a punishment from God because 0:05:00.716 --> 0:05:03.556 this person was a sinner. I was kind of marinating 0:05:03.596 --> 0:05:06.916 in that ideology all the time. It was absolutely something 0:05:06.916 --> 0:05:11.356 that I lived and breathed and desperately wanted to, you know, 0:05:11.356 --> 0:05:15.756 to be a good and proper advocate for So when 0:05:15.836 --> 0:05:19.716 I graduated from college and you know, I learned about Twitter, 0:05:20.236 --> 0:05:22.716 it was something that I really, I thought, Okay, well, 0:05:22.716 --> 0:05:25.636 this could be a new avenue for us to get 0:05:25.676 --> 0:05:28.636 this message out. Can you tell me a bit more 0:05:28.716 --> 0:05:33.996 about what your Twitter exchanges were like. So, yeah, when 0:05:33.996 --> 0:05:35.716 I got on Twitter, at one of the first people 0:05:35.716 --> 0:05:38.916 that I targeted because the Jewish community at that point 0:05:39.116 --> 0:05:41.836 was very much in focus of the church, and it 0:05:41.836 --> 0:05:43.396 was around the time at the High Holidays, and I 0:05:43.436 --> 0:05:45.956 reached out to this man named David Abbottball who ran 0:05:45.996 --> 0:05:50.796 a blog called Julicious, and I think my first tweet 0:05:50.836 --> 0:05:53.036 said something so I mean to him was something about 0:05:53.116 --> 0:05:57.116 how about Jewish people needing to really repent? And you know, 0:05:57.596 --> 0:05:59.796 I thought he mistook the tone of my tweet because 0:05:59.956 --> 0:06:02.796 he responded with thanks Megan, that's handy what with youngpoor 0:06:02.876 --> 0:06:06.556 coming up. So then I like made sure the next 0:06:06.556 --> 0:06:09.716 message wouldn't be misunderstood. I told him that Whish customs 0:06:09.716 --> 0:06:12.316 were dead, wrote rituals that would lead them all to hell. 0:06:12.796 --> 0:06:14.916 So that started this you know, kind of back and 0:06:14.956 --> 0:06:18.316 forth where at the at the beginning, you know, it 0:06:18.356 --> 0:06:22.396 started out very hostile, but very quickly David changed his tone. 0:06:22.956 --> 0:06:25.236 And and not just David, but there was there were 0:06:25.276 --> 0:06:28.316 other people on the platform too who took this kind 0:06:28.356 --> 0:06:33.316 of more relaxed as I'm gonna understant that's quite the 0:06:33.396 --> 0:06:36.596 right word this. It just it just wasn't as aggressive 0:06:36.716 --> 0:06:39.996 they were. They were willing to ask questions and to 0:06:40.316 --> 0:06:43.716 be calm and to really try to understand where I 0:06:43.756 --> 0:06:46.636 was coming from instead of just assuming the worst of 0:06:46.796 --> 0:06:51.156 me and my family and our motives, and their willingness 0:06:51.196 --> 0:06:55.876 to listen ultimately allowed them to find these internal inconsistencies 0:06:55.876 --> 0:06:59.996 in our doctrine. And so David actually ended up being 0:06:59.996 --> 0:07:04.196 the first person to find one of those internal inconsistencies, 0:07:04.636 --> 0:07:07.716 and it was really mind blowing for me, and I 0:07:08.076 --> 0:07:10.876 refused to admit to him at the time. You know, 0:07:10.916 --> 0:07:13.756 he had clearly, you know, pointed out this contradiction, and 0:07:14.316 --> 0:07:16.716 it wasn't something that I could argue my way out of, 0:07:16.796 --> 0:07:19.876 and coming from a family full of lawyers who had 0:07:20.116 --> 0:07:23.236 been teaching me this ideology every day, you know, essentially 0:07:23.276 --> 0:07:26.756 from the time I was old enough to understand language. 0:07:27.156 --> 0:07:30.956 For me not to have the answer felt, you know, 0:07:31.636 --> 0:07:34.516 I felt like at a complete loss in that moment. 0:07:34.916 --> 0:07:37.236 So I didn't have an answer for the contradiction. I 0:07:37.316 --> 0:07:39.796 shut down the conversation and then I just stopped talking 0:07:39.796 --> 0:07:43.916 to him for a while what was the contradiction It was, 0:07:44.116 --> 0:07:45.956 you know, it's it's so funny looking bad because it's 0:07:45.956 --> 0:07:49.996 a relatively you know, small point of theology, or seemingly so. 0:07:50.396 --> 0:07:52.316 It was about a sign that we had that said 0:07:52.796 --> 0:07:56.796 death penalty for fags. And I should say I the 0:07:56.836 --> 0:07:59.196 only reason I continued to use that language is because 0:07:59.196 --> 0:08:02.036 I think it's important too to show kind of the 0:08:02.116 --> 0:08:06.876 depths of you know, the destructiveness of our of our message. 0:08:07.436 --> 0:08:09.556 So that's what the sign said, it's calling for the 0:08:09.596 --> 0:08:13.396 death penalty for gay people. And you know, David pointed out, 0:08:13.436 --> 0:08:16.156 what didn't Jesus say, let he who is without sin 0:08:16.276 --> 0:08:19.516 cast the first stone? And you know, we had an 0:08:19.516 --> 0:08:22.276 answer for that because people would you know, throw that 0:08:22.436 --> 0:08:26.236 verse at us, And what we would say is, we're 0:08:26.236 --> 0:08:29.116 not casting stones. We're preaching words like, we're not actually 0:08:29.116 --> 0:08:33.356 out trying to you know, murder anybody. And David, you know, 0:08:33.356 --> 0:08:35.716 pointed out the obvious, you know problem with an argument, 0:08:35.716 --> 0:08:38.156 which is like, yeah, but you're advocating that the government 0:08:38.196 --> 0:08:41.756 cast stones, which he's exactly right, that's what we were doing. 0:08:41.796 --> 0:08:45.076 And it had never occurred to me. So again, this 0:08:45.556 --> 0:08:46.916 is the moment that I first kind of you know 0:08:46.996 --> 0:08:50.436 feel like whoa like, I feel like I've missed something here. 0:08:50.996 --> 0:08:54.196 And then but then David kept going. He said, and 0:08:54.356 --> 0:08:57.156 didn't your mother have your oldest brother out of wedlock? 0:08:57.876 --> 0:08:59.596 And we had an answer for that too, and the 0:08:59.676 --> 0:09:02.796 answer was that, you know, God doesn't require sinlessness, that's 0:09:02.836 --> 0:09:07.036 not the standard of God. He requires repentance. And of 0:09:07.076 --> 0:09:09.356 course my mom repented of that sin, and it's not 0:09:09.476 --> 0:09:11.676 like she's you know, she was still committing forn occasion. 0:09:12.316 --> 0:09:15.476 And David said, yeah, but if you had instituted the 0:09:15.556 --> 0:09:18.156 death penalty for that sin, she would have been killed 0:09:18.396 --> 0:09:21.276 and would not have had the opportunity to repent and 0:09:21.316 --> 0:09:27.156 be forgiven. And that realization, like my family would not 0:09:27.276 --> 0:09:31.316 exist without the mercy that my mother experienced, like the 0:09:31.356 --> 0:09:33.116 fact that she lived in a society where she was 0:09:33.156 --> 0:09:37.436 not murdered for that sin or executed rather for that sin. 0:09:38.916 --> 0:09:41.876 I was, just, like I said, at a complete loss. 0:09:42.876 --> 0:09:46.796 It's interesting because David's approach with you reminds me of 0:09:47.636 --> 0:09:51.916 this concept in cognitive science called moral reframing, and it 0:09:51.996 --> 0:09:55.476 basically says that we're more effective at changing people's minds 0:09:55.516 --> 0:09:59.116 when we ground our arguments in ways that affirm rather 0:09:59.156 --> 0:10:02.676 than threaten their moral values. So rather than you know, 0:10:02.876 --> 0:10:06.116 trying to undermine the entire belief system, right, rather than 0:10:06.156 --> 0:10:09.756 trying to challenge all the axioms, right, the fundamental ideology, 0:10:09.876 --> 0:10:13.356 you roote your arguments in basically the language they speak. 0:10:13.636 --> 0:10:17.156 And it seems like what David was doing was grounding 0:10:17.196 --> 0:10:21.116 his arguments to you in terms of existing values that 0:10:21.156 --> 0:10:24.356 you had, right, and that had he gone, you know, 0:10:24.476 --> 0:10:26.716 the extra step of saying began what you think is 0:10:26.876 --> 0:10:30.236 absolutely that shit crazy, it probably would not have worked 0:10:30.276 --> 0:10:33.236 as well. Can you can you share your thoughts on that? Yeah? Absolutely, 0:10:33.276 --> 0:10:35.356 this is so amazing. I didn't realize there was a 0:10:35.356 --> 0:10:38.156 word for that. I hadn't heard that phrase moral reframing. 0:10:39.516 --> 0:10:42.876 The questions and the doubts often start with internal inconsistencies 0:10:43.716 --> 0:10:46.396 or the group's failure to live up to its own standards. 0:10:46.396 --> 0:10:48.796 That this is This is how doubt creeps in initially, 0:10:49.116 --> 0:10:52.196 and then the system overall can ultimately be undermined. But 0:10:52.236 --> 0:10:55.156 it has to start with those very small things. And 0:10:55.196 --> 0:10:59.316 like you said, you are affirming or or utilizing, you know, 0:10:59.356 --> 0:11:02.436 source material that they already find compelling. But you are 0:11:02.516 --> 0:11:05.236 also you know, by asking questions and trying to understand 0:11:05.236 --> 0:11:08.236 where they're coming from. You know, you are signaling to 0:11:08.276 --> 0:11:12.036 them that they're being which tends to make people more 0:11:12.076 --> 0:11:15.436 receptive to hearing about your ideas as well. So, I mean, 0:11:15.676 --> 0:11:18.276 when David is asking me all these questions, David, and 0:11:18.556 --> 0:11:19.916 you know a lot of other people on Twitter, when 0:11:19.916 --> 0:11:23.716 they're asking me these questions, you're hearing kind of other 0:11:23.956 --> 0:11:26.276 learning about other parts of their their lives and such, 0:11:26.676 --> 0:11:31.316 developing these essentially you know, these relationships, however distant and 0:11:31.396 --> 0:11:35.196 kind of tenuous it is. And that was I experienced 0:11:35.236 --> 0:11:37.676 that over and over again on Twitter. Un tell there 0:11:37.796 --> 0:11:40.956 was this you know, community of people that I that 0:11:41.036 --> 0:11:45.436 I did feel like I had some kind of connection to. 0:11:46.436 --> 0:11:50.636 You know. That was the beginning of the process of 0:11:51.116 --> 0:11:54.076 It was like the thread that started to unravel the 0:11:54.116 --> 0:11:56.916 rest of the tapestry of Westbroo's ideology. In my mind, 0:12:01.356 --> 0:12:03.636 will be right back with a slight change of plants. 0:12:15.316 --> 0:12:18.516 Megan's faith in Westborough was beginning to falter. In the 0:12:18.596 --> 0:12:21.676 spring of twenty eleven, another crack in her belief system 0:12:21.716 --> 0:12:24.916 formed when a group of Westborough's male leaders turned on 0:12:25.036 --> 0:12:28.356 Meghan's mom. They said she wasn't following the rules. They 0:12:28.396 --> 0:12:31.196 called her a troublemaker, and they stripped her of all 0:12:31.236 --> 0:12:35.556 her church duties. Meghan's mom was devastated. The church had 0:12:35.556 --> 0:12:39.156 meant everything to her. It was the first time I'd 0:12:39.156 --> 0:12:41.876 watched it happened to other members of the church, and 0:12:42.076 --> 0:12:45.916 I was never close enough to those people to really 0:12:46.036 --> 0:12:48.716 challenge it even in my own mind. And seeing it 0:12:48.796 --> 0:12:52.436 happened to my mother, who I spent so much time with, 0:12:52.876 --> 0:12:56.516 so much of my day to hear the things that 0:12:56.996 --> 0:13:00.396 the other church members were saying about her, I knew 0:13:00.396 --> 0:13:03.076 that they were wrong, and it was a really terrifying 0:13:03.196 --> 0:13:06.076 thing for me to be feeling these things and to 0:13:06.196 --> 0:13:10.836 be rejecting the judgment of the church on any issue. 0:13:12.156 --> 0:13:14.236 It made me feel as if, you know, Satan was 0:13:14.236 --> 0:13:16.436 whispering in my ear, and this was a test from God, 0:13:16.476 --> 0:13:18.876 and I was failing it because I didn't just go 0:13:18.956 --> 0:13:20.876 along with it the way that everybody else seemed to be. 0:13:23.036 --> 0:13:26.556 Was there one moment in particular where you felt, Okay, 0:13:26.756 --> 0:13:31.316 now I'm fully beyond the point of return. Yeah, there 0:13:31.396 --> 0:13:35.796 was this moment in the summer of twenty twelve. So 0:13:35.876 --> 0:13:39.796 I was painting in a friend's basement with my sister. 0:13:40.156 --> 0:13:42.996 We were supposed to be covering up these purple stripes 0:13:42.996 --> 0:13:46.116 with white paint, and I just I advocate for that. 0:13:46.556 --> 0:13:48.396 I'm not a fan of purple stripes on the wall. 0:13:49.516 --> 0:13:52.116 You know. Funny thing in hindsight, like the more I 0:13:52.156 --> 0:13:55.916 tried to cover that, that cover that paint up, nothing 0:13:55.996 --> 0:13:59.196 was working. You could still see the darkness underneath. Is 0:13:59.236 --> 0:14:02.516 this a metaphor? I know? And it's like it was, 0:14:02.596 --> 0:14:04.356 it was. It was a horrible moment. So I was 0:14:04.396 --> 0:14:07.236 painting in the basement with my sister, or painting opposite 0:14:07.236 --> 0:14:10.316 walls so our backs are to each other. This incredibly 0:14:10.316 --> 0:14:13.236 sad music is playing on the speaker. What was it? 0:14:13.276 --> 0:14:15.836 What was the song? It was called just One by 0:14:15.876 --> 0:14:19.876 a blind pilot, And you know, and I'm barely hearing, 0:14:20.476 --> 0:14:22.556 you know, the music because at this point, you know, 0:14:22.836 --> 0:14:26.036 all of those all of those questions and doubts just 0:14:26.116 --> 0:14:28.956 building and building in my mind. And there's the level 0:14:29.156 --> 0:14:33.556 of shame and regret and humiliation that I felt in 0:14:33.636 --> 0:14:36.516 that moment. It's hard to describe because I mean, if 0:14:36.556 --> 0:14:39.796 you if you imagine, like what it would be like 0:14:40.516 --> 0:14:44.876 to look back and think that you had spent decades 0:14:44.996 --> 0:14:51.036 of your life sewing doom and discord to the rest 0:14:51.036 --> 0:14:55.516 of the world, offering nothing but condemnation, going to people 0:14:55.636 --> 0:14:58.716 in their most vulnerable moments and telling them that God 0:14:58.756 --> 0:15:01.676 was punishing them that they deserved, you know, this, this 0:15:01.716 --> 0:15:04.796 horrible thing that's happened to their family. You know. So 0:15:04.876 --> 0:15:08.316 I'm looking back at all of those things and realizing that, 0:15:08.716 --> 0:15:12.436 oh my God, this wasn't the work of God. This 0:15:12.636 --> 0:15:18.556 wasn't you know, a necessary divine truth. No, this was Gramps, 0:15:18.796 --> 0:15:21.436 you know, this was his understanding of the world. And 0:15:21.476 --> 0:15:25.196 it's completely wrong. And so to have this thing that 0:15:25.276 --> 0:15:29.076 I had seen as such a blessing and this just 0:15:29.396 --> 0:15:31.956 what a beautiful gift to go and speak for God. 0:15:32.356 --> 0:15:35.076 It's like having this beautiful gem in your hand and 0:15:35.116 --> 0:15:37.596 then suddenly realize that it's like it's it's not a gem. 0:15:37.836 --> 0:15:41.876 It's like turning to like ashes. It was just horrifying. 0:15:42.396 --> 0:15:46.996 So was there a particular song lyric that precipitated these thoughts? 0:15:47.916 --> 0:15:51.196 You know? The line was will I break and will 0:15:51.236 --> 0:16:06.396 I bow? If I cannot let it go break bo 0:16:07.076 --> 0:16:09.596 And I'm like, I'm sitting there again a whole onto 0:16:09.676 --> 0:16:12.916 all of these questions, and like the song continues, and 0:16:12.956 --> 0:16:14.716 I can't I know that I can't let those questions 0:16:14.716 --> 0:16:16.476 go there was I was never going to be able 0:16:16.476 --> 0:16:18.836 to let it go. And then you know, it gets 0:16:18.876 --> 0:16:22.196 to a little a few lines later and he says, 0:16:22.476 --> 0:16:25.916 I can't believe we get just one life, you know, 0:16:26.356 --> 0:16:30.236 is what he's talking about. And the idea of, you know, 0:16:30.316 --> 0:16:33.356 having spent all at that point, all of my one 0:16:33.436 --> 0:16:38.756 life doing nothing but but going around hurting people with 0:16:38.796 --> 0:16:42.076 all the best intentions. We had done this thing that 0:16:42.156 --> 0:16:45.996 had caused so much destruction in so many lives, including 0:16:45.996 --> 0:16:50.916 our own, and the idea of spending the rest of 0:16:50.956 --> 0:16:53.956 my life that way, I just that was the moment 0:16:53.996 --> 0:16:57.516 I knew that I had just gone too far down 0:16:57.556 --> 0:16:59.076 the path in my mind that I would never be 0:16:59.116 --> 0:17:03.596 able to go back and pretend. I actually thought in 0:17:03.636 --> 0:17:06.916 that moment, like could I pretend for the sake of 0:17:06.956 --> 0:17:09.596 my families, just so I could keep them, to not 0:17:09.676 --> 0:17:13.116 have to lose them. You know, I'm the third of 0:17:13.116 --> 0:17:18.276 eleven children, you know, fifty some cousins, and we all 0:17:18.356 --> 0:17:20.756 lived within a few blocks of each other. The church 0:17:20.756 --> 0:17:23.716 members were our entire life, They were in our entire community, 0:17:24.076 --> 0:17:26.476 the only people we were ever allowed to be close with. 0:17:27.276 --> 0:17:31.996 And the idea of walking away and losing all of 0:17:32.036 --> 0:17:34.636 them immediately in one Fell Swope, but they would never 0:17:35.116 --> 0:17:40.636 talk to me again. That the prospect of that kind 0:17:40.676 --> 0:17:46.716 of loss is just almost impossible to comprehend. I was 0:17:46.756 --> 0:17:48.676 wondering if you could bring me back to the day 0:17:49.436 --> 0:17:54.596 when your parents found out that you were planning to leave. Yeah. So, yeah, 0:17:54.636 --> 0:17:56.796 we had My sister and I had been making plans 0:17:57.036 --> 0:18:00.036 for a couple of months or so. At that point, 0:18:00.076 --> 0:18:03.076 we had started moving out boxes, and but we kept 0:18:03.156 --> 0:18:06.076 delaying our exit because we were we were just hoping 0:18:06.516 --> 0:18:09.356 that if we if we could just convince them, you know, 0:18:09.396 --> 0:18:11.316 maybe we could just move it all back and pretend 0:18:11.316 --> 0:18:12.916 like it, you know, it had never happened. Maybe we 0:18:12.916 --> 0:18:15.236 could convince them that they were wrong, and then we 0:18:15.236 --> 0:18:17.836 wouldn't have to that we would be saved, you know, 0:18:17.916 --> 0:18:22.836 from our plans. And and so one day a friend, um, 0:18:22.876 --> 0:18:25.636 a former friend actually, you know, she had she knew 0:18:25.676 --> 0:18:29.116 all about our plans to leave, and and she sent 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:31.996 a message to our parents, you know, telling them that 0:18:32.076 --> 0:18:35.196 we were going to leave. And you know that, of course, 0:18:35.236 --> 0:18:40.036 immediately brought everything to a crashing halt. Um. We had 0:18:40.076 --> 0:18:43.796 barely been able to keep it together as it was. Um, 0:18:43.836 --> 0:18:46.316 but then when that when that happened. We just knew this. 0:18:46.756 --> 0:18:48.676 We can't delay this any longer. We just we just 0:18:48.716 --> 0:18:51.356 have to We just have to explain and we have 0:18:51.436 --> 0:18:54.796 to go. What was the most important thing that you packed? 0:18:54.836 --> 0:18:57.836 I mean, you're packing up your entire life and you're 0:18:57.836 --> 0:19:01.796 not sure you're you're ever going to return. I copied, 0:19:02.116 --> 0:19:04.796 you know, sixty some DVDs worth of home movies, and 0:19:05.076 --> 0:19:06.796 you know, watching the scenes play like it was a 0:19:06.796 --> 0:19:10.116 funeral reel. It was just it was it was horrifying. 0:19:10.756 --> 0:19:14.196 But it was important for me to have those things 0:19:14.316 --> 0:19:17.396 to take with me. But it was also important for 0:19:17.476 --> 0:19:20.996 me to leave things behind. You know, as I was packing, 0:19:21.556 --> 0:19:23.956 I was looking at all of these letters and cards, 0:19:23.996 --> 0:19:26.396 birthday cards and just you know, thank you cards, things 0:19:26.436 --> 0:19:28.156 that my family had given me that I kept in 0:19:28.156 --> 0:19:32.396 this box. And as I'm going through it and I'm reading, 0:19:33.036 --> 0:19:35.996 there's a qualification on all of these cards. I love 0:19:36.036 --> 0:19:38.556 you because you love the Lord. I love you because 0:19:38.636 --> 0:19:41.836 you walk this path with us, things like that, and 0:19:41.996 --> 0:19:44.996 so everything that I wrote to my family in those months, 0:19:45.276 --> 0:19:48.156 it was I love you forever and ever, no matter what, 0:19:48.516 --> 0:19:50.636 and I'm always going to be here for you no 0:19:50.676 --> 0:19:56.196 matter what happens. Things like that, and you know when 0:19:56.276 --> 0:19:58.716 you when you know that this connection is going to 0:19:58.796 --> 0:20:06.076 be so cleanly severed, it just brings everything into very 0:20:06.116 --> 0:20:11.156 sharp focus. So you know, I'm thinking about I'm trying 0:20:11.196 --> 0:20:12.956 to put myself in your shoes. So there's the day 0:20:12.956 --> 0:20:19.956 you left, and you know, anxiety, trepidation, fear, adrenaline, it's 0:20:19.956 --> 0:20:22.236 all getting you through the day. And then there's the 0:20:22.316 --> 0:20:26.316 next morning when you wake up and this stark reality 0:20:26.396 --> 0:20:29.156 hits you, and you know it occurred to me. I 0:20:29.196 --> 0:20:32.956 think it's easy to see your childhood as having been oppressive, 0:20:33.156 --> 0:20:37.716 right bound by the Church's ideology and its rigidity. But 0:20:37.836 --> 0:20:40.796 I do feel that there is an ease that comes 0:20:40.876 --> 0:20:44.996 from never having to ask existential questions as a child. 0:20:45.716 --> 0:20:49.596 Every answer is spoon fed to you, every decision and 0:20:49.716 --> 0:20:53.556 action is licensed, And I'm just curious to know how 0:20:53.596 --> 0:20:55.836 do you transition to a world right you're waking up 0:20:55.876 --> 0:20:59.396 that next morning none of this is true anymore. What 0:20:59.516 --> 0:21:03.156 it felt like for me, it felt like this physical, 0:21:03.276 --> 0:21:06.076 like like I had a giant boulder sitting on my 0:21:06.196 --> 0:21:08.916 chest and I couldn't breathe, and I couldn't see a 0:21:09.156 --> 0:21:11.756 round it, and I had no vision of the future. 0:21:11.836 --> 0:21:14.316 I had no idea what my life was going to 0:21:14.396 --> 0:21:17.436 look like, and I had every reason to believe that, 0:21:17.716 --> 0:21:20.836 you know, the fact that I had so boldly, you know, 0:21:20.916 --> 0:21:24.196 gone forth in the name of Westboro and you know, 0:21:24.276 --> 0:21:26.436 done all these horrible things, and that nobody had any 0:21:26.476 --> 0:21:29.276 reason to give me a second chance, and I had 0:21:29.356 --> 0:21:32.276 left the only people you know who had any reason 0:21:32.316 --> 0:21:36.076 to love me. You know, Once it was actually done, 0:21:36.916 --> 0:21:40.516 there was an enormous sense of relief too. Along with 0:21:40.596 --> 0:21:43.356 that boulder, there was this weird sense, strange sense of 0:21:43.356 --> 0:21:48.556 relief that I could now live and behave and speak 0:21:49.036 --> 0:21:52.716 according to my conscience, to not have to act for 0:21:52.796 --> 0:21:55.276 the sake of my family, That I could be upfront 0:21:55.396 --> 0:21:59.076 with the people around me about what I really thought, 0:21:59.116 --> 0:22:01.076 about what I really believed, and to ask the questions 0:22:01.076 --> 0:22:05.036 that I needed to ask, and talk to, you know, 0:22:05.116 --> 0:22:07.636 to people and try to understand different ways of thinking 0:22:08.036 --> 0:22:12.356 and seeing the world. It was incredibly valuable to be 0:22:12.396 --> 0:22:16.236 able to be open. When you reflect back on your 0:22:16.236 --> 0:22:20.636 time in Westboro, it must feel at least slightly jarring 0:22:20.956 --> 0:22:25.356 to reconcile that Megan with the Megan you are today. 0:22:25.756 --> 0:22:29.076 And you know, I think it raises some interesting philosophical 0:22:29.156 --> 0:22:32.436 questions about what it really means to be you, right. 0:22:32.436 --> 0:22:35.236 I mean, so technically you were the same physical person, 0:22:35.356 --> 0:22:38.516 you had the same consciousness, all the same memories, but 0:22:38.636 --> 0:22:45.436 you held a starkly different and harmful worldview. And how 0:22:45.476 --> 0:22:47.436 do you feel about that? I mean, do you actively 0:22:47.476 --> 0:22:54.396 try and distance yourself from that? Megan? I do not 0:22:54.756 --> 0:22:58.556 try to distance myself from it. When I left, I 0:22:58.596 --> 0:23:02.716 did not delete you know, twenty some thousand tweets, you know, 0:23:02.796 --> 0:23:04.836 where I had been posting for the church and saying 0:23:04.836 --> 0:23:07.396 all those heinous things. I didn't go and delete all 0:23:07.396 --> 0:23:11.316 my Facebook photo and you know, pictures from pickets and such, 0:23:11.516 --> 0:23:13.796 and so I still get these memories popping up on 0:23:14.436 --> 0:23:18.156 my Facebook about about these things, and sometimes in some 0:23:18.236 --> 0:23:22.036 moments I'm like, wow, I cannot believe that was my life, 0:23:22.516 --> 0:23:25.196 and it does feel distant. But I think part of 0:23:25.236 --> 0:23:29.196 the reason, part of what helps me have such a 0:23:29.276 --> 0:23:32.476 posture of grace toward other people and even you know, 0:23:32.516 --> 0:23:35.996 specifically people that I believe are doing harmful things, is 0:23:36.436 --> 0:23:39.116 because I feel so close to the person that I was, Like, 0:23:39.156 --> 0:23:44.476 I remember what it is like to be absolutely persuaded 0:23:44.876 --> 0:23:50.036 by very bad ideas, and so for me, I've been 0:23:50.076 --> 0:23:53.516 extremely grateful that people have been willing to allow me 0:23:53.716 --> 0:23:57.156 to show the nuance of this picture, to see the 0:23:57.236 --> 0:23:59.876 hope in that, because if somebody is doing bad but 0:23:59.996 --> 0:24:03.076 has good intentions, you know you at least have the 0:24:03.156 --> 0:24:05.996 intentions to tap into. If you can just help them 0:24:06.236 --> 0:24:10.836 reframe whatever the situation is, then there is a possibility 0:24:10.876 --> 0:24:13.516