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Speaker 1: Pushkin. My mom used to actually say this about the Bible.

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Speaker 1: You can some of the Bible in three words, obey, obey, obey.

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Speaker 1: Megan felps Roper grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church,

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Speaker 1: a religious cult out of Topeka, Kansas that's often called

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Speaker 1: the most obnoxious and rapid hate group in America. Meghan

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Speaker 1: was a fervent believer in everything Westborough stood for, but

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Speaker 1: when she was in her mid twenties, Meghan decided to

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Speaker 1: leave it all behind, her family, her community, and everything

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Speaker 1: she had ever believed to be true. It felt like

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Speaker 1: this physical, like like I had a giant boulder sitting

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Speaker 1: on my chest and I couldn't breathe, and I couldn't

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Speaker 1: see around it, and I had no vision of the future.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea what my life was going to

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Speaker 1: look like today. A story of someone who was absolutely

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Speaker 1: persuaded by terrible ideas until one day she changed her mind.

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Speaker 1: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,

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Speaker 1: a show that dives deep into the world of change

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Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently at that change

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Speaker 1: in our own lives. All right, Megan, So I'd love

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Speaker 1: to start from the beginning. Your grandfather started the Westboro

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Speaker 1: Baptist Church, right, tell me more about the church. So

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Speaker 1: what did you guys believe in. We believed that we

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Speaker 1: were the elect of God, this very small remnant that

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Speaker 1: was bound for heaven, and that basically almost everyone else

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Speaker 1: in the world was headed for hell, that God had

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Speaker 1: condemned them because of their sins. And so for me,

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Speaker 1: how I came into that was when I was five

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Speaker 1: years old, my family started protesting, protesting all across the country,

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Speaker 1: usually several times a week, and every single day in

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Speaker 1: my hometown. Our most infamous message was God Hates fags.

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Speaker 1: So it started as a protest movement against the LGBTQ community,

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Speaker 1: but as I say, like it very quickly expanded to

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Speaker 1: include everybody who wasn't part of our church. Were you

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Speaker 1: able to comprehend what those signs were even saying did

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Speaker 1: you understand what it is that you were actually protesting?

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Speaker 1: To bring it back to that scene, yeah, So after

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Speaker 1: church it started. After church one Sunday, we kind of

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Speaker 1: piled into our vehicles and drove It was about a

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Speaker 1: half a mile. This park was about a half a

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Speaker 1: mile from the church, and we walked out there with

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Speaker 1: these signs I couldn't read at the time. Of course,

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Speaker 1: it was just before I started kindergarten, and I remember,

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Speaker 1: you know, people of course were very angry the messages

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Speaker 1: on our signs. Uh. You know, one of the very

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Speaker 1: early ones what said gays are worthy of death. And

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Speaker 1: you know, people saw those signs and were immediately inflamed.

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Speaker 1: And people would start like driving their cars at us,

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Speaker 1: jumping out of their cars, like parking in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the street, you know, these busy thoroughfare and to

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Speaker 1: come after us on foot. And so you know, my

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Speaker 1: dad and and the kind of older men in the

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Speaker 1: church would come and try to, you know, form a

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Speaker 1: kind of barricade between us and you know, counter protesters

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Speaker 1: and people who came out to attack us. And at

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Speaker 1: the time, of course, I did not understand Westboro's theology

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Speaker 1: in all of its particulars. But the main theme that

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Speaker 1: I understood was about obedience. And this was a theme

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Speaker 1: that was you know, constantly harped upon in my family.

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Speaker 1: So it's the idea that if you obey God, how

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Speaker 1: bless you. And if you disobey God, then he will

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Speaker 1: curse you. And so my family taught me that this

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Speaker 1: was the definition of love. What we were doing to

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Speaker 1: go out and warn people of the consequences of their

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Speaker 1: sins that if they continue to go down this path

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Speaker 1: of supporting you know, the LGBTQ community, or fornication or adultery,

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Speaker 1: you know, which my family and church defined as to

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Speaker 1: include divorce and remarriage. To go down this path is

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Speaker 1: to incur necessarily the curses of God. We considered it

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Speaker 1: a great privilege that we got to go and speak

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Speaker 1: the truth into this, you know, the language that he used.

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Speaker 1: We get to go in and inject a little Bible

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Speaker 1: truth into this insane orgy of fag lies. That's how

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Speaker 1: we put it, and that's how they talked about, you know,

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Speaker 1: death generally, it could never be just you know, somebody

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Speaker 1: dying of natural causes, you know, of old age or something.

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Speaker 1: It's like, no, this was a punishment from God because

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Speaker 1: this person was a sinner. I was kind of marinating

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Speaker 1: in that ideology all the time. It was absolutely something

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Speaker 1: that I lived and breathed and desperately wanted to, you know,

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Speaker 1: to be a good and proper advocate for So when

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Speaker 1: I graduated from college and you know, I learned about Twitter,

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Speaker 1: it was something that I really, I thought, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: this could be a new avenue for us to get

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Speaker 1: this message out. Can you tell me a bit more

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Speaker 1: about what your Twitter exchanges were like. So, yeah, when

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Speaker 1: I got on Twitter, at one of the first people

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Speaker 1: that I targeted because the Jewish community at that point

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Speaker 1: was very much in focus of the church, and it

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Speaker 1: was around the time at the High Holidays, and I

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Speaker 1: reached out to this man named David Abbottball who ran

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Speaker 1: a blog called Julicious, and I think my first tweet

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Speaker 1: said something so I mean to him was something about

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Speaker 1: how about Jewish people needing to really repent? And you know,

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Speaker 1: I thought he mistook the tone of my tweet because

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Speaker 1: he responded with thanks Megan, that's handy what with youngpoor

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Speaker 1: coming up. So then I like made sure the next

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Speaker 1: message wouldn't be misunderstood. I told him that Whish customs

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Speaker 1: were dead, wrote rituals that would lead them all to hell.

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Speaker 1: So that started this you know, kind of back and

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Speaker 1: forth where at the at the beginning, you know, it

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Speaker 1: started out very hostile, but very quickly David changed his tone.

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Speaker 1: And and not just David, but there was there were

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Speaker 1: other people on the platform too who took this kind

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Speaker 1: of more relaxed as I'm gonna understant that's quite the

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Speaker 1: right word this. It just it just wasn't as aggressive

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Speaker 1: they were. They were willing to ask questions and to

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Speaker 1: be calm and to really try to understand where I

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Speaker 1: was coming from instead of just assuming the worst of

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Speaker 1: me and my family and our motives, and their willingness

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Speaker 1: to listen ultimately allowed them to find these internal inconsistencies

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Speaker 1: in our doctrine. And so David actually ended up being

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Speaker 1: the first person to find one of those internal inconsistencies,

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Speaker 1: and it was really mind blowing for me, and I

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Speaker 1: refused to admit to him at the time. You know,

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Speaker 1: he had clearly, you know, pointed out this contradiction, and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't something that I could argue my way out of,

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Speaker 1: and coming from a family full of lawyers who had

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Speaker 1: been teaching me this ideology every day, you know, essentially

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Speaker 1: from the time I was old enough to understand language.

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Speaker 1: For me not to have the answer felt, you know,

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Speaker 1: I felt like at a complete loss in that moment.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't have an answer for the contradiction. I

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Speaker 1: shut down the conversation and then I just stopped talking

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Speaker 1: to him for a while what was the contradiction It was,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's it's so funny looking bad because it's

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Speaker 1: a relatively you know, small point of theology, or seemingly so.

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Speaker 1: It was about a sign that we had that said

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Speaker 1: death penalty for fags. And I should say I the

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Speaker 1: only reason I continued to use that language is because

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Speaker 1: I think it's important too to show kind of the

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Speaker 1: depths of you know, the destructiveness of our of our message.

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Speaker 1: So that's what the sign said, it's calling for the

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Speaker 1: death penalty for gay people. And you know, David pointed out,

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Speaker 1: what didn't Jesus say, let he who is without sin

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Speaker 1: cast the first stone? And you know, we had an

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Speaker 1: answer for that because people would you know, throw that

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Speaker 1: verse at us, And what we would say is, we're

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Speaker 1: not casting stones. We're preaching words like, we're not actually

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Speaker 1: out trying to you know, murder anybody. And David, you know,

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Speaker 1: pointed out the obvious, you know problem with an argument,

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Speaker 1: which is like, yeah, but you're advocating that the government

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Speaker 1: cast stones, which he's exactly right, that's what we were doing.

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Speaker 1: And it had never occurred to me. So again, this

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Speaker 1: is the moment that I first kind of you know

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Speaker 1: feel like whoa like, I feel like I've missed something here.

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Speaker 1: And then but then David kept going. He said, and

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Speaker 1: didn't your mother have your oldest brother out of wedlock?

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Speaker 1: And we had an answer for that too, and the

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Speaker 1: answer was that, you know, God doesn't require sinlessness, that's

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Speaker 1: not the standard of God. He requires repentance. And of

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Speaker 1: course my mom repented of that sin, and it's not

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Speaker 1: like she's you know, she was still committing forn occasion.

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Speaker 1: And David said, yeah, but if you had instituted the

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Speaker 1: death penalty for that sin, she would have been killed

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Speaker 1: and would not have had the opportunity to repent and

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Speaker 1: be forgiven. And that realization, like my family would not

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Speaker 1: exist without the mercy that my mother experienced, like the

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Speaker 1: fact that she lived in a society where she was

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Speaker 1: not murdered for that sin or executed rather for that sin.

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Speaker 1: I was, just, like I said, at a complete loss.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because David's approach with you reminds me of

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Speaker 1: this concept in cognitive science called moral reframing, and it

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Speaker 1: basically says that we're more effective at changing people's minds

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Speaker 1: when we ground our arguments in ways that affirm rather

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Speaker 1: than threaten their moral values. So rather than you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to undermine the entire belief system, right, rather than

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Speaker 1: trying to challenge all the axioms, right, the fundamental ideology,

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Speaker 1: you roote your arguments in basically the language they speak.

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Speaker 1: And it seems like what David was doing was grounding

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Speaker 1: his arguments to you in terms of existing values that

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Speaker 1: you had, right, and that had he gone, you know,

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Speaker 1: the extra step of saying began what you think is

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Speaker 1: absolutely that shit crazy, it probably would not have worked

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Speaker 1: as well. Can you can you share your thoughts on that? Yeah? Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: this is so amazing. I didn't realize there was a

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Speaker 1: word for that. I hadn't heard that phrase moral reframing.

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Speaker 1: The questions and the doubts often start with internal inconsistencies

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Speaker 1: or the group's failure to live up to its own standards.

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Speaker 1: That this is This is how doubt creeps in initially,

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Speaker 1: and then the system overall can ultimately be undermined. But

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Speaker 1: it has to start with those very small things. And

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Speaker 1: like you said, you are affirming or or utilizing, you know,

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Speaker 1: source material that they already find compelling. But you are

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Speaker 1: also you know, by asking questions and trying to understand

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Speaker 1: where they're coming from. You know, you are signaling to

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Speaker 1: them that they're being which tends to make people more

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Speaker 1: receptive to hearing about your ideas as well. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: when David is asking me all these questions, David, and

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of other people on Twitter, when

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Speaker 1: they're asking me these questions, you're hearing kind of other

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Speaker 1: learning about other parts of their their lives and such,

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Speaker 1: developing these essentially you know, these relationships, however distant and

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Speaker 1: kind of tenuous it is. And that was I experienced

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Speaker 1: that over and over again on Twitter. Un tell there

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Speaker 1: was this you know, community of people that I that

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Speaker 1: I did feel like I had some kind of connection to.

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Speaker 1: You know. That was the beginning of the process of

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Speaker 1: It was like the thread that started to unravel the

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Speaker 1: rest of the tapestry of Westbroo's ideology. In my mind,

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Speaker 1: will be right back with a slight change of plants.

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Speaker 1: Megan's faith in Westborough was beginning to falter. In the

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Speaker 1: spring of twenty eleven, another crack in her belief system

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Speaker 1: formed when a group of Westborough's male leaders turned on

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Speaker 1: Meghan's mom. They said she wasn't following the rules. They

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Speaker 1: called her a troublemaker, and they stripped her of all

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Speaker 1: her church duties. Meghan's mom was devastated. The church had

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Speaker 1: meant everything to her. It was the first time I'd

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Speaker 1: watched it happened to other members of the church, and

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Speaker 1: I was never close enough to those people to really

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Speaker 1: challenge it even in my own mind. And seeing it

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Speaker 1: happened to my mother, who I spent so much time with,

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Speaker 1: so much of my day to hear the things that

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Speaker 1: the other church members were saying about her, I knew

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Speaker 1: that they were wrong, and it was a really terrifying

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Speaker 1: thing for me to be feeling these things and to

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Speaker 1: be rejecting the judgment of the church on any issue.

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Speaker 1: It made me feel as if, you know, Satan was

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Speaker 1: whispering in my ear, and this was a test from God,

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Speaker 1: and I was failing it because I didn't just go

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Speaker 1: along with it the way that everybody else seemed to be.

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Speaker 1: Was there one moment in particular where you felt, Okay,

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Speaker 1: now I'm fully beyond the point of return. Yeah, there

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Speaker 1: was this moment in the summer of twenty twelve. So

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Speaker 1: I was painting in a friend's basement with my sister.

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Speaker 1: We were supposed to be covering up these purple stripes

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Speaker 1: with white paint, and I just I advocate for that.

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Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of purple stripes on the wall.

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Speaker 1: You know. Funny thing in hindsight, like the more I

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Speaker 1: tried to cover that, that cover that paint up, nothing

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Speaker 1: was working. You could still see the darkness underneath. Is

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Speaker 1: this a metaphor? I know? And it's like it was,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was a horrible moment. So I was

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Speaker 1: painting in the basement with my sister, or painting opposite

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Speaker 1: walls so our backs are to each other. This incredibly

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Speaker 1: sad music is playing on the speaker. What was it?

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Speaker 1: What was the song? It was called just One by

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Speaker 1: a blind pilot, And you know, and I'm barely hearing,

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Speaker 1: you know, the music because at this point, you know,

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Speaker 1: all of those all of those questions and doubts just

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Speaker 1: building and building in my mind. And there's the level

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Speaker 1: of shame and regret and humiliation that I felt in

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Speaker 1: that moment. It's hard to describe because I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you if you imagine, like what it would be like

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Speaker 1: to look back and think that you had spent decades

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Speaker 1: of your life sewing doom and discord to the rest

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Speaker 1: of the world, offering nothing but condemnation, going to people

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Speaker 1: in their most vulnerable moments and telling them that God

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Speaker 1: was punishing them that they deserved, you know, this, this

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Speaker 1: horrible thing that's happened to their family. You know. So

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Speaker 1: I'm looking back at all of those things and realizing that,

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Speaker 1: oh my God, this wasn't the work of God. This

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Speaker 1: wasn't you know, a necessary divine truth. No, this was Gramps,

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Speaker 1: you know, this was his understanding of the world. And

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Speaker 1: it's completely wrong. And so to have this thing that

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Speaker 1: I had seen as such a blessing and this just

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Speaker 1: what a beautiful gift to go and speak for God.

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Speaker 1: It's like having this beautiful gem in your hand and

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Speaker 1: then suddenly realize that it's like it's it's not a gem.

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Speaker 1: It's like turning to like ashes. It was just horrifying.

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Speaker 1: So was there a particular song lyric that precipitated these thoughts?

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Speaker 1: You know? The line was will I break and will

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Speaker 1: I bow? If I cannot let it go break bo

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm sitting there again a whole onto

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Speaker 1: all of these questions, and like the song continues, and

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Speaker 1: I can't I know that I can't let those questions

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Speaker 1: go there was I was never going to be able

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Speaker 1: to let it go. And then you know, it gets

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Speaker 1: to a little a few lines later and he says,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe we get just one life, you know,

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Speaker 1: is what he's talking about. And the idea of, you know,

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Speaker 1: having spent all at that point, all of my one

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Speaker 1: life doing nothing but but going around hurting people with

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Speaker 1: all the best intentions. We had done this thing that

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Speaker 1: had caused so much destruction in so many lives, including

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Speaker 1: our own, and the idea of spending the rest of

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Speaker 1: my life that way, I just that was the moment

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Speaker 1: I knew that I had just gone too far down

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Speaker 1: the path in my mind that I would never be

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Speaker 1: able to go back and pretend. I actually thought in

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Speaker 1: that moment, like could I pretend for the sake of

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Speaker 1: my families, just so I could keep them, to not

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Speaker 1: have to lose them. You know, I'm the third of

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Speaker 1: eleven children, you know, fifty some cousins, and we all

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Speaker 1: lived within a few blocks of each other. The church

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Speaker 1: members were our entire life, They were in our entire community,

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Speaker 1: the only people we were ever allowed to be close with.

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Speaker 1: And the idea of walking away and losing all of

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Speaker 1: them immediately in one Fell Swope, but they would never

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Speaker 1: talk to me again. That the prospect of that kind

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Speaker 1: of loss is just almost impossible to comprehend. I was

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Speaker 1: wondering if you could bring me back to the day

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Speaker 1: when your parents found out that you were planning to leave. Yeah. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we had My sister and I had been making plans

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Speaker 1: for a couple of months or so. At that point,

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Speaker 1: we had started moving out boxes, and but we kept

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Speaker 1: delaying our exit because we were we were just hoping

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Speaker 1: that if we if we could just convince them, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe we could just move it all back and pretend

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Speaker 1: like it, you know, it had never happened. Maybe we

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Speaker 1: could convince them that they were wrong, and then we

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have to that we would be saved, you know,

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Speaker 1: from our plans. And and so one day a friend, um,

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Speaker 1: a former friend actually, you know, she had she knew

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Speaker 1: all about our plans to leave, and and she sent

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Speaker 1: a message to our parents, you know, telling them that

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Speaker 1: we were going to leave. And you know that, of course,

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Speaker 1: immediately brought everything to a crashing halt. Um. We had

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Speaker 1: barely been able to keep it together as it was. Um,

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Speaker 1: but then when that when that happened. We just knew this.

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Speaker 1: We can't delay this any longer. We just we just

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Speaker 1: have to We just have to explain and we have

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Speaker 1: to go. What was the most important thing that you packed?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you're packing up your entire life and you're

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Speaker 1: not sure you're you're ever going to return. I copied,

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Speaker 1: you know, sixty some DVDs worth of home movies, and

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Speaker 1: you know, watching the scenes play like it was a

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Speaker 1: funeral reel. It was just it was it was horrifying.

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Speaker 1: But it was important for me to have those things

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Speaker 1: to take with me. But it was also important for

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Speaker 1: me to leave things behind. You know, as I was packing,

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Speaker 1: I was looking at all of these letters and cards,

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Speaker 1: birthday cards and just you know, thank you cards, things

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Speaker 1: that my family had given me that I kept in

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Speaker 1: this box. And as I'm going through it and I'm reading,

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Speaker 1: there's a qualification on all of these cards. I love

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Speaker 1: you because you love the Lord. I love you because

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Speaker 1: you walk this path with us, things like that, and

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Speaker 1: so everything that I wrote to my family in those months,

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Speaker 1: it was I love you forever and ever, no matter what,

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Speaker 1: and I'm always going to be here for you no

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Speaker 1: matter what happens. Things like that, and you know when

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Speaker 1: you when you know that this connection is going to

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00:19:58,796 --> 00:20:06,076
Speaker 1: be so cleanly severed, it just brings everything into very

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Speaker 1: sharp focus. So you know, I'm thinking about I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to put myself in your shoes. So there's the day

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Speaker 1: you left, and you know, anxiety, trepidation, fear, adrenaline, it's

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00:20:19,956 --> 00:20:22,236
Speaker 1: all getting you through the day. And then there's the

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00:20:22,316 --> 00:20:26,316
Speaker 1: next morning when you wake up and this stark reality

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00:20:26,396 --> 00:20:29,156
Speaker 1: hits you, and you know it occurred to me. I

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00:20:29,196 --> 00:20:32,956
Speaker 1: think it's easy to see your childhood as having been oppressive,

341
00:20:33,156 --> 00:20:37,716
Speaker 1: right bound by the Church's ideology and its rigidity. But

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00:20:37,836 --> 00:20:40,796
Speaker 1: I do feel that there is an ease that comes

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Speaker 1: from never having to ask existential questions as a child.

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Speaker 1: Every answer is spoon fed to you, every decision and

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00:20:49,716 --> 00:20:53,556
Speaker 1: action is licensed, And I'm just curious to know how

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Speaker 1: do you transition to a world right you're waking up

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00:20:55,876 --> 00:20:59,396
Speaker 1: that next morning none of this is true anymore. What

348
00:20:59,516 --> 00:21:03,156
Speaker 1: it felt like for me, it felt like this physical,

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00:21:03,276 --> 00:21:06,076
Speaker 1: like like I had a giant boulder sitting on my

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Speaker 1: chest and I couldn't breathe, and I couldn't see a

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Speaker 1: round it, and I had no vision of the future.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea what my life was going to

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Speaker 1: look like, and I had every reason to believe that,

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Speaker 1: you know, the fact that I had so boldly, you know,

355
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Speaker 1: gone forth in the name of Westboro and you know,

356
00:21:24,276 --> 00:21:26,436
Speaker 1: done all these horrible things, and that nobody had any

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00:21:26,476 --> 00:21:29,276
Speaker 1: reason to give me a second chance, and I had

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Speaker 1: left the only people you know who had any reason

359
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Speaker 1: to love me. You know, Once it was actually done,

360
00:21:36,916 --> 00:21:40,516
Speaker 1: there was an enormous sense of relief too. Along with

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Speaker 1: that boulder, there was this weird sense, strange sense of

362
00:21:43,356 --> 00:21:48,556
Speaker 1: relief that I could now live and behave and speak

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Speaker 1: according to my conscience, to not have to act for

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Speaker 1: the sake of my family, That I could be upfront

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Speaker 1: with the people around me about what I really thought,

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Speaker 1: about what I really believed, and to ask the questions

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00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:05,036
Speaker 1: that I needed to ask, and talk to, you know,

368
00:22:05,116 --> 00:22:07,636
Speaker 1: to people and try to understand different ways of thinking

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00:22:08,036 --> 00:22:12,356
Speaker 1: and seeing the world. It was incredibly valuable to be

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Speaker 1: able to be open. When you reflect back on your

371
00:22:16,236 --> 00:22:20,636
Speaker 1: time in Westboro, it must feel at least slightly jarring

372
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Speaker 1: to reconcile that Megan with the Megan you are today.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think it raises some interesting philosophical

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Speaker 1: questions about what it really means to be you, right.

375
00:22:32,436 --> 00:22:35,236
Speaker 1: I mean, so technically you were the same physical person,

376
00:22:35,356 --> 00:22:38,516
Speaker 1: you had the same consciousness, all the same memories, but

377
00:22:38,636 --> 00:22:45,436
Speaker 1: you held a starkly different and harmful worldview. And how

378
00:22:45,476 --> 00:22:47,436
Speaker 1: do you feel about that? I mean, do you actively

379
00:22:47,476 --> 00:22:54,396
Speaker 1: try and distance yourself from that? Megan? I do not

380
00:22:54,756 --> 00:22:58,556
Speaker 1: try to distance myself from it. When I left, I

381
00:22:58,596 --> 00:23:02,716
Speaker 1: did not delete you know, twenty some thousand tweets, you know,

382
00:23:02,796 --> 00:23:04,836
Speaker 1: where I had been posting for the church and saying

383
00:23:04,836 --> 00:23:07,396
Speaker 1: all those heinous things. I didn't go and delete all

384
00:23:07,396 --> 00:23:11,316
Speaker 1: my Facebook photo and you know, pictures from pickets and such,

385
00:23:11,516 --> 00:23:13,796
Speaker 1: and so I still get these memories popping up on

386
00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:18,156
Speaker 1: my Facebook about about these things, and sometimes in some

387
00:23:18,236 --> 00:23:22,036
Speaker 1: moments I'm like, wow, I cannot believe that was my life,

388
00:23:22,516 --> 00:23:25,196
Speaker 1: and it does feel distant. But I think part of

389
00:23:25,236 --> 00:23:29,196
Speaker 1: the reason, part of what helps me have such a

390
00:23:29,276 --> 00:23:32,476
Speaker 1: posture of grace toward other people and even you know,

391
00:23:32,516 --> 00:23:35,996
Speaker 1: specifically people that I believe are doing harmful things, is

392
00:23:36,436 --> 00:23:39,116
Speaker 1: because I feel so close to the person that I was, Like,

393
00:23:39,156 --> 00:23:44,476
Speaker 1: I remember what it is like to be absolutely persuaded

394
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Speaker 1: by very bad ideas, and so for me, I've been

395
00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:53,516
Speaker 1: extremely grateful that people have been willing to allow me

396
00:23:53,716 --> 00:23:57,156
Speaker 1: to show the nuance of this picture, to see the

397
00:23:57,236 --> 00:23:59,876
Speaker 1: hope in that, because if somebody is doing bad but

398
00:23:59,996 --> 00:24:03,076
Speaker 1: has good intentions, you know you at least have the

399
00:24:03,156 --> 00:24:05,996
Speaker 1: intentions to tap into. If you can just help them

400
00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:10,836
Speaker 1: reframe whatever the situation is, then there is a possibility

401
00:24:10,876 --> 00:24:13,516
Speaker 1: for change. And I just I am a prisoner to

402
00:24:13,596 --> 00:24:16,276
Speaker 1: that hope because I know what it's like to believe

403
00:24:16,276 --> 00:24:19,316
Speaker 1: so strongly in something and then to now believe you

404
00:24:19,516 --> 00:24:23,876
Speaker 1: completely the opposite. In so many ways, I admire that

405
00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:28,516
Speaker 1: despite the discomfort in having to embrace prior megan, it

406
00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:32,956
Speaker 1: is essentially the thing that allows you to sustain the

407
00:24:32,996 --> 00:24:35,276
Speaker 1: empathy you feel. In many ways, it's something you probably

408
00:24:35,316 --> 00:24:38,156
Speaker 1: feel you have to do in order to feel not

409
00:24:38,316 --> 00:24:40,876
Speaker 1: fully alienated from your family, right like the people that

410
00:24:40,956 --> 00:24:44,036
Speaker 1: you love, like you have to cultivate this mindset. I

411
00:24:44,076 --> 00:24:47,156
Speaker 1: believe that I just responded in a very human way

412
00:24:47,556 --> 00:24:50,596
Speaker 1: to people who treated me like a human being, and

413
00:24:50,636 --> 00:24:53,596
Speaker 1: that if my family were exposed to the same kind

414
00:24:53,636 --> 00:24:56,636
Speaker 1: of thing that I was exposed to, that they would

415
00:24:56,676 --> 00:24:59,636
Speaker 1: have left too, And so they just haven't yet had

416
00:24:59,676 --> 00:25:02,436
Speaker 1: the experiences that I had for it to become undeniable

417
00:25:02,476 --> 00:25:05,036
Speaker 1: for me, that we were wrong and that I had

418
00:25:05,076 --> 00:25:07,716
Speaker 1: to find a different way. They haven't had those experiences yet,

419
00:25:07,716 --> 00:25:10,996
Speaker 1: and that's the only difference between them and me. It

420
00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:13,476
Speaker 1: seems like there are a lot of counterfactual worlds where

421
00:25:13,796 --> 00:25:18,036
Speaker 1: if things had played out ever so differently, it might

422
00:25:18,076 --> 00:25:20,916
Speaker 1: have been your family who left and not you, right,

423
00:25:20,956 --> 00:25:24,116
Speaker 1: And I think that's such an important thought experiment, because

424
00:25:24,636 --> 00:25:28,316
Speaker 1: sometimes the best way to empathize with others, to forgive others,

425
00:25:28,316 --> 00:25:30,956
Speaker 1: to under try and understand where they're coming from, is

426
00:25:30,956 --> 00:25:34,836
Speaker 1: to recognize that there's not that much that actually separates

427
00:25:34,876 --> 00:25:39,676
Speaker 1: you from them. What's your relationship like with your your parents?

428
00:25:41,036 --> 00:25:44,356
Speaker 1: Do you talk to them? I missed my mom so much.

429
00:25:44,396 --> 00:25:47,356
Speaker 1: We spent so much time together all the time, and I,

430
00:25:49,196 --> 00:25:51,956
Speaker 1: you know, when I see videos of her now, especially

431
00:25:52,316 --> 00:25:55,396
Speaker 1: back when there was vine. I remember just shortly after

432
00:25:55,396 --> 00:25:58,196
Speaker 1: I left, just watching videos of her on a loop,

433
00:25:58,236 --> 00:26:00,916
Speaker 1: those six six second videos just to hear just to

434
00:26:00,956 --> 00:26:05,796
Speaker 1: hear her voice. It's very one sided. So they don't

435
00:26:05,796 --> 00:26:07,436
Speaker 1: believe that they can have anything to do with me,

436
00:26:07,676 --> 00:26:09,956
Speaker 1: you know, on this way. We're daughter and I, you know,

437
00:26:10,036 --> 00:26:12,196
Speaker 1: have to show me that that I'm doing wrong so

438
00:26:12,276 --> 00:26:14,796
Speaker 1: that I can, you know, understand, understand that I'm doing

439
00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:18,596
Speaker 1: wrong and repent. So largely it is, you know, the

440
00:26:19,076 --> 00:26:23,516
Speaker 1: our relationship consists of me sending letters and birthday cards

441
00:26:23,556 --> 00:26:27,196
Speaker 1: and wedding gifts and tweets, and whenever I'm in Topeka,

442
00:26:27,316 --> 00:26:29,836
Speaker 1: like I always go and like walk around the block

443
00:26:30,396 --> 00:26:32,676
Speaker 1: where I used to live, and I leave something in

444
00:26:32,756 --> 00:26:35,916
Speaker 1: the door for for my parents. And I don't try

445
00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:37,516
Speaker 1: to get them to come out and talk to me,

446
00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:39,796
Speaker 1: because I'm not trying to put them on the spot

447
00:26:40,076 --> 00:26:43,196
Speaker 1: or make them feel like they're betraying the church or

448
00:26:43,236 --> 00:26:45,796
Speaker 1: the rest of the family. But it's important to me

449
00:26:45,876 --> 00:26:48,996
Speaker 1: to leave those things for them so that they know

450
00:26:49,116 --> 00:26:51,436
Speaker 1: without a doubt that I have not forgotten them and

451
00:26:51,956 --> 00:26:56,196
Speaker 1: that I love them, and you know, I know, And

452
00:26:56,196 --> 00:26:58,996
Speaker 1: this is one of the things that I think is

453
00:26:59,036 --> 00:27:01,836
Speaker 1: the reason that I'm not an emotional basket case, is

454
00:27:01,916 --> 00:27:06,436
Speaker 1: that I understand that they love me. In spite of

455
00:27:06,436 --> 00:27:08,956
Speaker 1: the fact that they have completely cut off this communication

456
00:27:08,956 --> 00:27:11,276
Speaker 1: with me. I understand that they love me and that

457
00:27:11,316 --> 00:27:13,796
Speaker 1: they're doing this because they believe it is for my good,

458
00:27:13,916 --> 00:27:17,076
Speaker 1: and that the way that they raised me left me

459
00:27:17,156 --> 00:27:21,636
Speaker 1: with no doubt of this. You know, deep motherly, fatherly

460
00:27:21,676 --> 00:27:23,436
Speaker 1: love that they have for me, and that's something that

461
00:27:23,476 --> 00:27:28,436
Speaker 1: I can't forget and that I won't forget. So having

462
00:27:28,436 --> 00:27:34,716
Speaker 1: gone through such a momentous change, do you fear change? No?

463
00:27:34,876 --> 00:27:38,196
Speaker 1: I really relish it. Actually, I think you know. One

464
00:27:38,236 --> 00:27:41,076
Speaker 1: of the things that I realized after I left was

465
00:27:41,756 --> 00:27:45,596
Speaker 1: what an enormous burden it was to feel like I

466
00:27:45,636 --> 00:27:47,716
Speaker 1: had the answers to everything, or that I had to

467
00:27:47,756 --> 00:27:51,276
Speaker 1: have the answers to everything. What limits that places on

468
00:27:51,316 --> 00:27:54,796
Speaker 1: your mind and on your life? And now, like, what

469
00:27:54,876 --> 00:27:57,596
Speaker 1: an amazing thing to realize, like how big the world is?

470
00:27:57,636 --> 00:27:59,156
Speaker 1: Like Wow, all these things that I just took for

471
00:27:59,196 --> 00:28:02,716
Speaker 1: granted as true and necessary, and the way you know

472
00:28:02,796 --> 00:28:06,516
Speaker 1: it's it's all questionable, and it's all the possibility there

473
00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:11,636
Speaker 1: is amazing. It's incredible to realize how much is undiscovered,

474
00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:36,676
Speaker 1: and like what a joy that makes life. Hey, thanks

475
00:28:36,676 --> 00:28:39,196
Speaker 1: for listening. Join me next week when I talk with

476
00:28:39,236 --> 00:28:42,876
Speaker 1: Adam Grant, we discuss how incredibly challenging it can be

477
00:28:42,996 --> 00:28:46,596
Speaker 1: to change your mind about just about anything. Adam and

478
00:28:46,636 --> 00:28:49,436
Speaker 1: I talk about science based strategies we can use to

479
00:28:49,516 --> 00:28:53,716
Speaker 1: help encourage this change in ourselves. People generally assume that

480
00:28:53,756 --> 00:28:56,396
Speaker 1: they're less biased than others. Right, This is my favorite bias.

481
00:28:56,516 --> 00:28:59,596
Speaker 1: It's I'm not biased biased, right, everybody else is biased.

482
00:28:59,916 --> 00:29:04,396
Speaker 1: I am objective. I see things with perfect neutrality, and

483
00:29:04,476 --> 00:29:07,476
Speaker 1: I think that the higher your intelligence, the more likely

484
00:29:07,516 --> 00:29:19,076
Speaker 1: you are to fall victim to that bias. A Slight

485
00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:21,996
Speaker 1: Change of Plans is created an executive produce by me

486
00:29:22,196 --> 00:29:26,636
Speaker 1: Maya Shunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries, including

487
00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:31,196
Speaker 1: our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and Julia Goodman,

488
00:29:31,676 --> 00:29:36,516
Speaker 1: executive producers Mia Lavelle and Justine Lang, senior editor Jen Guera,

489
00:29:36,916 --> 00:29:40,916
Speaker 1: and sound design and mixed engineers Ben Tolliday and Jason Gambrel.

490
00:29:41,796 --> 00:29:44,516
Speaker 1: Thanks also to Louise Gara who wrote our theme song,

491
00:29:44,676 --> 00:29:48,356
Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith who helped arrange the vocals, incidental music

492
00:29:48,396 --> 00:29:52,316
Speaker 1: from Epidemic Sound, and of course a very special thanks

493
00:29:52,396 --> 00:29:55,196
Speaker 1: to Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of

494
00:29:55,236 --> 00:30:08,076
Speaker 1: Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker. Megan, I just

495
00:30:08,116 --> 00:30:10,556
Speaker 1: want to say thanks so much for joining me in

496
00:30:10,556 --> 00:30:15,716
Speaker 1: this conversation. It was absolutely fascinating and can you say

497
00:30:15,716 --> 00:30:22,316
Speaker 1: something back? Sure? Well, I guess it feelings one sided, folks.

498
00:30:22,516 --> 00:30:25,436
Speaker 1: I'm one of us to join the conversation. I'm totally kidding.

499
00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:27,356
Speaker 1: I thought I thought I was supposed to be quiet

500
00:30:27,356 --> 00:30:29,596
Speaker 1: so you could just talk