1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 2: Well, Elon Musk is now the richest person on the planet. 3 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 2: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 2: controlled by one man. 5 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 3: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. He 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 3: says he's always voted for Democrats, but this year it 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 3: will be different. 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: He'll vote Republican. 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 3: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 10 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,040 Speaker 3: on him. Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's 11 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 3: done nothing. 12 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 2: Anything he does, he's fascinating the people. Welcome to Elon Ink, 13 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 2: Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. It's Tuesday, February fourth. 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: I'm your host, Max Chafkin in for David Papadopoulos. A 15 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: few months ago, many people, although not let's be clear, 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: the people on this podcast, were seeing Elon Musk as 17 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: at best sort of a figurehead within the Trump administration, 18 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 2: somebody who'd be on a blue ribbon panel and would 19 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 2: mostly spend his time running his six very large, very 20 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 2: important companies. But the events of the past few days 21 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: have been shocking even to those of us who thought 22 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 2: that Elon would take a big role. Starting late last week, 23 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 2: Musk and his Doge team members went out across numerous 24 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 2: federal departments and armed with Trump's executive orders, began sowing chaos. 25 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 2: We're going to get into what happened and what might 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: come next, and then take a look at how Musk's 27 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 2: actual businesses are doing with a trade roar at home 28 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 2: and all of this Musk created chaos and political divisiveness 29 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 2: here at home. It's a lot to discuss all this. 30 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 2: We have Bloomberg's elon Musk reporter Dana Hull Hey Dana 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: Hey Nax and Bloomberg Politics reporter Ted Man joining us 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 2: from DC Hey, Tedy. And here in New York, Anthony Cormier, 33 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 2: a investigative reporter who co authored a great story yesterday 34 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: from inside the offices of Musk's attempted takeover of USAID. 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: Welcome Anthony, Thanks for having me. 36 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 2: All right, So, Anthony, you co wrote this story with 37 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 2: our colleague Jason Leopold. 38 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 3: It is basically an inside. 39 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: Account on what's kind of like a battle almost that 40 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 2: played out inside of this us AID, which is a 41 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: big foreign aid office inside the federal government. 42 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 3: Just tell us what happened as far as you understand. 43 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 4: It well, And there was a really unusual confrontation in fact, 44 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 4: on Saturday between a group of what people are calling 45 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 4: the Doge kids. These are young technologists who seem to 46 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 4: have an ideological bent that is similar to Elon's. And 47 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 4: they've been tapped by Musk and this new Doge team 48 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 4: to go in and look for spending cuts and they 49 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:03,399 Speaker 4: took aim last week at USID, and so they show 50 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 4: up on Saturday as the building is empty, and they 51 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:12,079 Speaker 4: demand access to the entire suite of offices, root around, 52 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 4: and after some back and forth, one of the members 53 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 4: of the Dose team calls Elon himself, and Elon gets 54 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 4: on the phone with the security office of USAID and says, look, 55 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 4: if you don't let us in, I'm going to call 56 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 4: the Marshall Service. Which is kind of an extraordinary circumstance, 57 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,239 Speaker 4: kind of an unheard of conversation between these two sides. 58 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 3: They get in. 59 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 4: It's our understanding that they do in fact go through offices. 60 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 4: They're looking, in fact in desk drawers, and ultimately they 61 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 4: want to get into a security office, a secure facility 62 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 4: that you need a certain security clearance to get into. 63 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 4: Security says, no way, you can't do it. One of 64 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 4: our piece of our reporting suggests that they actually tried 65 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 4: to open a locked door to this secure facility. There's 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 4: a big blowout, the security officials are put on leave. 67 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 4: It's unclear at this point where than in fact they 68 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 4: did get into this office and what they were seeking. 69 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 2: Okay, so I want to get more into this confrontation 70 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: over the weekend before we do that, Ted, There's been 71 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: a lot happening with DOGE in Washington. We've seen Musk 72 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,559 Speaker 2: sort of go after a handful of targets, the Office 73 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: of Personnel Management, which is like HR for the government 74 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 2: General Services Administration, which controls I think the buildings the 75 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 2: Treasury Department's payment system. We talked about that on the 76 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 2: Emergency podcast over the weekend. Can you just sort of 77 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: put this latest thing into context for us, sure? 78 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: I mean what Anthesy is describing as an especially dramatic 79 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: and colorful version of what has happened at a bunch 80 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: of these other offices you just mentioned, where these landing 81 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,720 Speaker 1: teams of DOGE employees are just showing up and requesting 82 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: access to the basic plumbing systems of the federal government, 83 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:52,799 Speaker 1: how money moves around, how people get hired, the information 84 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: that is stored about every program and every person who 85 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: works in the federal government. So it really is exactly 86 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: what the executve orders that created this non agency agency promised, 87 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: which is that they've they've given him the keys to 88 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: all the systems, or they're trying to at any rate. 89 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 1: In some cases, obviously they're having to try to take 90 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: them because they lack the legal authority. But it does 91 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: seem like this is this attempt to kind of get 92 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: over top of the whole machine and figure out how 93 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: it works. 94 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 3: And Dana, is you on doing anything else of the moment? 95 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 2: Is he basically just is this like a doze like 96 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 2: one hundred percent full time right now. 97 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 5: He did take an hour out of his busy schedule 98 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 5: last week to like be on Tesla's earning call, but 99 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 5: he is hunkered down in Washington, d C. His plane 100 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 5: has been at Dulles for two weeks. And Anthony, what 101 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 5: kind of really struck me about your story over the 102 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 5: weekend is kind of the gleeful abandon with which Musk 103 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 5: and the Doze crew, where kids as some as some 104 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 5: have called them, are going about this. I listened to 105 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 5: Elon Musk do his X spaces on Sunday night, and 106 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 5: he was like very euphoric about about what they had done. 107 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 6: To be clear, shutting down which we're in the past 108 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 6: is doing shutting down USAID. The reason for that, as 109 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 6: opposed to simply, you know, trying to do some minor 110 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 6: house cleaning, is is that as we dug into USAID, 111 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 6: it became apparent that what we have here is not 112 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 6: an apple with a worm in it, but we have 113 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 6: actually just a bowl of worms. 114 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 2: He also said, we spent the weekend feeding USAID into 115 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 2: a wood chipper. Could have gone to some great parties, 116 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 2: did that instead? 117 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, Anthony, I think this is a really important point. 118 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 5: Like Musk is not a nine to five person. He 119 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 5: operates a lot on the weekends and a lot late 120 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 5: at night, and the fact that this kind of confrontation 121 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 5: happened on a Saturday is just super striking to me. 122 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 5: I think that's by design. And could you just talk 123 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 5: a little bit more about like who the doged landing 124 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 5: team at USA I did is? I mean you and 125 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 5: Jason and your story actually had like the names of 126 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 5: these people and many of them are like twenty five 127 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 5: and under, recent college graduates, young engineers who have worked 128 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 5: for Elon's other companies. Can you give us a little 129 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 5: bit more census to who exactly they are. Do they 130 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 5: have security clearances? Are they special government employees? 131 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 3: They are all great questions, we think. 132 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 4: So far, they've been assigned to other government offices, the 133 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 4: Office of Personnel Management, the GSA, the Small Businesses Administration. 134 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 4: I believe one of them has been and they all 135 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 4: seem to have, like I said earlier, an ideological bent 136 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 4: as far as we can tell. For instance, there's a 137 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 4: fellow called Gavin Kleeber. He's a twenty something who has 138 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 4: a blog, and on his blog he expounds on these 139 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 4: kind of conspiracies about how the CIA was responsible for 140 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 4: everything that happened to Congressman Matt Getz. There's another individual 141 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 4: on that that sort of beachhead team that was at usaid. 142 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 4: This is a person who is a teeal fellow. Right, 143 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 4: So we're seeing people who come from that sort of strainingly. 144 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: Online right wing conspiratorial ecosystem. 145 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 3: Right, your words are perfect, right. 146 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 4: These are the people who sort of believe in that mission, 147 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 4: whatever you think of it, and they've been hired and 148 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 4: tasked with many of the similar things. I mean, there's 149 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 4: a brilliant story in the New York Times about how 150 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 4: this mirrors what happened at X right that they go 151 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 4: in and wipe out half the staff and figure it 152 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 4: out later. And folks at USAID are saying to us, like, 153 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 4: you can't break malaria coverage, like it's irresponsible to stop 154 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 4: some of the funding of these measures, and they've to 155 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 4: use his words, put it in a wood chipper. 156 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 5: It also really mirrors what happened at TESLA, right, So 157 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,680 Speaker 5: like last spring, Elon Musk fired nearly twenty percent of 158 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 5: the staff at Tesla and people literally like were going 159 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 5: to work in the morning and they only knew that 160 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 5: they had been dismissed because their badges no longer worked 161 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 5: and they were immediately cut off from all systems. That's 162 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 5: what's happening at USAID right. Like people that are like 163 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 5: in missions around the world are like all of a 164 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 5: sudden like told like that they're fired, but they can't 165 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 5: even access any kind of system to like get reimbursed 166 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 5: for they're plane ticket home or like to close out 167 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 5: what they'd been working on with their partners. I mean, 168 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,839 Speaker 5: people are really like around the globe or left hanging. 169 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: There's medicine on the loading dock in some cases, like 170 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: there's just we've just walked away from real obligations that 171 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: affect real lives. 172 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: TED build on that a little bit, because I don't 173 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 2: think we've totally established what said stake here, Like, first 174 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 2: of all, I don't think it's clear that Elon Musk 175 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: has in fact destroyed like he I'm not sure that 176 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: you know, sorry to use the metaphor, but put it 177 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 2: in the wood chipper. And also like if he were 178 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: to destroy USID, like, what does this organization actually do well? 179 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: I mean, to your first point, there are a lot 180 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: of people who point out he legally lacks the authority 181 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 1: to destroy USAID was created by a statute. It was, 182 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, a law made this thing. He can't undo 183 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: it by waiving a magic wand at it. The question 184 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,079 Speaker 1: is whether anyone in Washington who opposes this is going 185 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: to stand up to it or going to find a 186 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: way that's effective. And we don't really know the answer 187 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: to that. USADA is broad, and it's like a lot 188 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: of federal agencies where it's it's they all have something 189 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: that we've talked about this before. It's easy to pull 190 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 1: out and make fun of. You know, there's always some 191 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: budget line for research that sounds stupid if you want 192 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: to make it look like they're just out there wasting money. 193 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: But it's also it's an agency directing soft power by 194 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: funding humanitarian efforts around the world. It's intended from its 195 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: outset to project American benevolence and force in opposition to 196 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: other superpowers, namely Russia and China. So, yeah, that's the 197 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: thing that they have just switched off with no warning. 198 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: It does sound like it's very analogous to what you're 199 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: describing Dana Tesla and what happened at X, but you know, 200 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: it's a little bit different when we're talking about baby formula. 201 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, this has come up in a few stories and 202 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 2: Anthony and maybe it's you've even come across it. 203 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 3: I'm curious. 204 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: But like the idea that they're using quote unquote AI, 205 00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: these these dose kids are using AI to essentially figure 206 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: out what's cut And I feel like, to Ted's point, 207 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 2: like a lot of these things you do a search 208 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,719 Speaker 2: for them and it sounds pretty bad or it sounds like, oh, 209 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: this is some frivolous thing. But a lot of what 210 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 2: USAID does is sort of project American influence in the world, 211 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 2: Like this is this is like a big part of 212 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: our like Foreign Policy and. 213 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 4: Foreign Policy Magazine once describe usa AIDA's work as trying 214 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 4: to do good things in bad places. And it's everything 215 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 4: from again, like HIV treatment in Sub Saharan Africa, it's 216 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 4: rebuilding Ukraine. They've got there' spent loads of money there, 217 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 4: appropriate loads of money there. And I think to its critics, 218 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 4: like their USAID is seen as sort of a front 219 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 4: for the CIA. I mean, there's not real evidence to support, 220 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 4: at least in recent years anyway, but you can see 221 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 4: why it might be a target of folks like Elon 222 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 4: Musk or Donald Trumptil who have an ideological bent against 223 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 4: expound our power. And also, like Trump, ran on an 224 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 4: America first platform, and their argument is going to be 225 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 4: I think that these programs still serve Americans first. Right, 226 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 4: No one on this call is going to be the 227 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 4: beneficiary of a USAID program. But I think you could 228 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 4: make an argument that like solving famine and poverty in 229 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 4: developing countries does keep the United States safe. I mean, 230 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 4: that's like what JFK started this whole thing about, right. 231 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 4: JFK in nineteen sixty one, to combat some Soviet Union 232 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 4: essentially said that American security American national security is best 233 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 4: served by stability across the world. So he starts a 234 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 4: program that will reduce famine, war, and poverty across the 235 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 4: world in the hopes that it will keep us safe 236 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 4: here at home. And I think that's what soft power 237 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 4: looks like. 238 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 2: So we've seen a couple of congress people, Senator Roger 239 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 2: rit Wicker of Mississippi kind of pushback gently. He said 240 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 2: he'd seen usaid kind of to your point, Anthony as 241 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: quote our way of combating the Belton Road initiative, that's 242 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 2: like the Chinese equivalent of soft power. We've also seen 243 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 2: Democrats push back, probably even more strongly. Let's play a 244 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: clip from Senator Bryan Shatz. 245 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 7: You cannot wave away an agency that you don't like 246 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 7: or that you disagree with by executive order or by 247 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 7: literally storming into the building and taking over the servers. 248 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's kind of where the Democrats are, Dana, do 249 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 2: we have a sense of where President Trump is here? 250 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: I mean this has been kind of a running theme, 251 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: like how like plugged in, is President Trump here? How 252 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 2: was he like, Yeah, Elon, go go destroy usaid, go 253 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 2: put in the woodshipper, or did Elon kind of do 254 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: this on his own. 255 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 5: I think that Elon did it with Trump's blessing. I 256 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 5: think that there was a comment from Trump at one 257 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 5: of the briefings that Elon can't do everything that he wants, 258 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 5: but he checks in and like this was okay. Marco 259 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 5: Rubio yesterday said that now parts of USAID are going 260 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 5: to be sort of absorbed into the State Department. So 261 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 5: this is not Elon going rogue. Elon Musks thinks that 262 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 5: he has a mandate to do this, and until the 263 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 5: Trump administration stops him, he is not going to stop. 264 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 5: I think what has surprised people is like the speed 265 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 5: with which he is doing it. It's almost like watching 266 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 5: like a foreign nation get sacked, where like they take 267 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 5: like city over city over city, and they're going agency 268 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 5: by agency by agency. And I think that they've had 269 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 5: this plan in the works for months. And I'm also 270 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 5: super interested in how Doge is working with either in 271 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 5: tandem or in parallel with the folks at omb and 272 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 5: Ross Voyd and Project twenty twenty five, Like these are 273 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 5: very similar objectives. 274 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. 275 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I think we're gonna we're gonna have to 276 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: talk about Russ Vaught at some point on this podcast. 277 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: I wanted to play one more clip from that very 278 00:14:55,880 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 2: surreal Twitter spaces. You know, first of all, the who 279 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: is out at Dose just like showed up as a 280 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 2: co host, which was sort of weird and amusing, and 281 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: there was this like slightly awkward vibe I thought between 282 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: the two men. And then there was also this moment 283 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: where Musk actually spoke to his kind of relationship with 284 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: President Trump. Let's just listen to that real quick. 285 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 6: And this could be done without the full support of 286 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 6: the President and with regard to the USA, I do stuff. 287 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: I went went over with him, you know, in. 288 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 6: Detail, and he agreed with the that we should we 289 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 6: should shut it down. I mean, that's want to be clear, 290 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 6: that's and I actually checked with him a few times. 291 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 3: Are you sure, like yes, so we're shutting it down? 292 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: Ted, Did you take that as Musk having Trump's full 293 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: and complete endorsement or whatever? Like there was something a 294 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 2: little bit like like protest too much to me about 295 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: Like I asked him once and he said yes. Then 296 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 2: I asked him again and he said, like it just 297 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 2: I don't know, there was something about that. And I 298 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 2: also just sort of wondering, you know, we're seeing Congress 299 00:15:55,240 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 2: people senators and House members make statements, do you sense 300 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 2: any kind of political blowback or even the beginnings of 301 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 2: political blowback, either from Republicans or Democrats. 302 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: I don't know how much Musk was sensing blowback in 303 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: that moment when he said that, it's certainly I hear 304 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: it the same way that if the blowback is coming, 305 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: he's reminding everybody that the leader of their group, of 306 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: their movement approves of what he's doing, or at least 307 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: has given him the whip hand. But there is blowback coming. 308 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: Like Bill Cassidy is a center from Louisiana, he's also 309 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: a doctor, and I think it was earlier today, if 310 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: not yesterday, he was criticizing the fact that this is 311 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: shut down PEPFAR, which is probably the most successful public 312 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: health initiative certainly of the last half century, which is 313 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 1: also a Republican program. It's a Bush program. People are 314 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: starting to grapple with the consequences, and it's not just 315 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: Democrats complaining. I think Musk probably is aware that he's 316 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: going to have to sort of defend some of this 317 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: stuff if he wants it to stick. I would just 318 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: point out, though I think you used the word glee earlier. 319 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: There is like on the subject of russ Vote, like 320 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: in the way that the DOGE people are talking to 321 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: the civil servants who are going after the weird shot 322 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 1: at all of them in the offer of the retirement package, 323 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: where they said, we'd like to move you from low 324 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: productivity public sector work into the private sector. Like this 325 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: disdain for anyone who works for the government is a 326 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: connective tissue to the rest of MAGA. That's the way 327 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: russ Vote has spoken about wanting every civil servant to 328 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: feel like a villain and to not want to go 329 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: to work in the morning. And there is this shared 330 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: antipathy for the government worker has a type, and I 331 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: think that that is the way at least right now 332 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: where they're working in harmony. 333 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, Anthony, I was curious if that came up in 334 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: your reporting, just the extent to which part of the 335 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: goal here seems to be the performance as much as 336 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 2: it is the actual like actually cutting these programs, but 337 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 2: to make civil servants feel bad or something like that. 338 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 4: No, not as much as not explicitly. The thing that 339 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 4: did come up is a real lack of transparency. It's 340 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 4: very difficult for us to understand who in fact works 341 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 4: for doughe like, what are they do? Like, how are 342 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 4: they communicating with one another? Like my colleague, you guys 343 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 4: probably know Chas Leopold is the most aggressive user of 344 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,959 Speaker 4: the Freedom of Information Act. And I am sure we 345 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 4: will be litigating some of these issues, but I am 346 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 4: struck by the lack of complete transparency. I mean, it's 347 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 4: happening on a social media platform that the great world's 348 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 4: richest man owns, Like he's setting and explaining public policy 349 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 4: on an all on a business that he owns. That 350 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 4: does not strike me as being businesses as usual. 351 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, to the point about lack of transparency, We've seen 352 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: reports saying that these doge kids are will. 353 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 3: Like refusing to give their last name. 354 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 2: So like many of the people at these agencies don't 355 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:48,719 Speaker 2: even know who they're dealing with. And just to be clear, like, 356 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 2: legally Elon cannot shut down usaid ted you kind of 357 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 2: you said it, but I just want to establish that, right. 358 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's certainly the argument you hear from every Democrat 359 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: in Congress I've heard talk about this to say, Look, 360 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: he's got an executive order saying that he can recommend 361 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 1: changes to the government, but that doesn't mean that he 362 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: can go in and remove something that is in the 363 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: Statutes of the United States that was created by law. 364 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 1: But that's going to be something where I think every 365 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: indication is they're going to dare the other side to 366 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: fight them and to take it to court. 367 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 2: And anthony this kind of these tactics, this kind of playbook. 368 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 2: Do we have any sense of whether it has been 369 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 2: replicated at any other federal agencies or whether we expect 370 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 2: to see the same kind of approach anywhere else within 371 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 2: the government. 372 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so. 373 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 4: We don't know yet where they've gone, but we do 374 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 4: know we understand that one of the main DOGE kids, 375 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 4: for lack of a better word, is a guy called 376 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 4: Gavin Kleeger, and his name has not been copied on 377 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 4: a number of other emails to other agencies. So the 378 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 4: thought is from people who work at these agencies, if 379 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 4: we're not now we're next right, that they are priming 380 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 4: the pump, so to speak, to come knock on our 381 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 4: door in the future. So it doesn't seem to end 382 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 4: with USAID or GSA or oh PM. It looks like 383 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 4: this is going to be a step by step process. 384 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: As you guys are saying, they're going to be more 385 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: of these standoffs. 386 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 3: We're going to be following it. Anthony, hope to. 387 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: Have you back to talk about as you as you 388 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: and your colleagues follow these stories. 389 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 3: Thanks again for being with us, Thanks for having me. 390 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: All right, let's talk about the impact that these very 391 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: well publicized antics and potentially consequential handtics are having on 392 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: Musk's businesses. 393 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 3: You know, we have talked over and. 394 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: Over again on this podcast, Dana will know ted you 395 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 2: may have even picked up a hint of it because 396 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 2: it comes up so often about the prospect that Musk's 397 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,400 Speaker 2: politicking will somehow hurt Tesla. David Popadopolis is like obsessed 398 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 2: with this question. He's always trying to force Dana to 399 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: admit that that maybe there's an impact. 400 00:20:58,119 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 3: And Dan, I think we've got it now, right. 401 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 2: Tesla's sales declined in California pretty significantly, the Model three, 402 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: especially down by like a third. Are we ready to 403 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 2: start saying, hey, like Tesla's sales may be suffering because 404 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 2: of Elon Musk's politics. 405 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 5: Yes, I would just caution that Tesla gets like like 406 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 5: forty percent of Tesla's sales are in China, and it 407 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 5: is a global auto market, and for every person that says, 408 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 5: I hate Elon Musket as politics. I'm never going to 409 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 5: buy a Tesla, Like people don't buy cars in the 410 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 5: same way that they buy like bud Light or shop 411 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 5: Target versus Costco. But yes, you are seeing people trade 412 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 5: in their Tesla's four rivians. You saw sales dip in 413 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 5: the in particularly in California, which is like the most 414 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 5: mature ev market in the country. You're seeing people's spray 415 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 5: paint stuff on the side of cyber trucks and vandalized stores, 416 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 5: and like you are seeing those sort of goofy bumper stickers. 417 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 5: I bought my Tesla before Elon went crazy, Like more 418 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,360 Speaker 5: are more common now. 419 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 2: The cyber truck in particular is almost like a rolling 420 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 2: bodiment of the dynamic that we discussed earlier. Right, it's 421 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 2: like two big, it's sort of like bullying the road. 422 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 2: Like it almost feels like that car in particular sort 423 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 2: of increasing this sense of Elon as a political figure 424 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: in a way that if they had, you know, had 425 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: a nice much smaller car, like a little smart car 426 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: type thing, maybe maybe it would it would counter it. 427 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: I think the cyber truck is the magahead of the 428 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: musk movement. It's a provocation, like you are asking for 429 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: the eyeball to even drive it down the street. 430 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely. 431 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 2: And also what's crazy about these sales numbers in the 432 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 2: US anyway, is that they Tesla had a new model, 433 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: essentially like a cyber truck is relatively new, and so 434 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 2: so the fact that the sales are falling despite the 435 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: cyber truck, or maybe because of it, seems doubly concerning 436 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 2: ted Let's let's let's stay with you and and move 437 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 2: on to tariffs, because we've seen this kind of Trump 438 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,479 Speaker 2: sort of threatened tariffs against Canada Mexico and then quickly 439 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 2: reverse course. We have the prospect of tariffs on China. 440 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 2: And you wrote a story for Bloomberg over the EV 441 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 2: graphite and the prospect of much much greater tariffs on graphite, 442 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 2: which is necessary, I believe to make batteries. Where does 443 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 2: that stand and how big a deal is it for Tesla. 444 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: It's a potentially big guilt for all the EV makers, 445 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: especially Tesla, as well as just the battery companies too. 446 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: This is an interesting example that we chose partly because 447 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: it starts in the first Trump term, when Trump imposed 448 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: duties on imports from China. One of the things that 449 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: got hit in that first wave was graphite, which is 450 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: needed in huge quantities and a great purity to make battery. 451 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: Sells the anode of a battery, so a ton of 452 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: it gets imported, including by Tesla, also by Panasonic and 453 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: other battery makers. They were hit with this duty the 454 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: first time around when Trump imposed tariffs on China. They 455 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: successfully Tesla succesfully lobbied for an exclusion. In other words, 456 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: they got to not pay the tariff, which was raising 457 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: their input costs for this this material that they desperately needed. 458 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: Under the Biden administration, where Biden kept some of those 459 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: tariffs in place, you could petition to have your exclusion 460 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: continued and renewed, and they lost theirs. They failed to 461 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: get the renewal, so now they're paying a twenty five 462 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: percent duty on the graphight that they import. The issue here, though, 463 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,880 Speaker 1: is the domestic graphight producers in the United States are 464 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: seeking a much much larger tariff on that material coming in. 465 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: They say there's no chance that a big industry that 466 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: we will really need for EVS but also for the 467 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: energy transition, because you'll need a lot of energy storage 468 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: systems will never be able to produce that raw material 469 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: if China is flooding the market with super low cost, 470 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: improperly low cost graphite, So they're asking for more than 471 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: nine hundred percent tariffs on graphite imports, and Tesla is 472 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: lobbying against that, which we just found. It's pretty interesting, right, 473 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,679 Speaker 1: this is Donald Trump's favorite rich guy and Donald Trump's 474 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: almost only economic theory, which is just imposing tariffs on 475 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: everybody else and then you'll get a revival of American manufacturing. 476 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: And the two are directly at loggerheads. 477 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 2: Tesla is in certain ways almost like a Chinese car company, 478 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,640 Speaker 2: or it's like an American company and a Chinese car 479 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: company married together or something. And as Ted is kind 480 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: of hinting at, you know, it's not just the tariffs 481 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 2: are a big issue for Trump, but China is a 482 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: big issue. I mean where do you have any sense 483 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: of like where and how Tesla could be hurt by 484 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 2: Trump's approach to China, whether he's he takes a harder 485 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: line than Biden or maybe a sort of lighter touch. 486 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 5: Well, Tesla is in better shape that other car companies 487 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 5: in terms of tariffs, just because they most of you know, 488 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 5: the cars that they sell in the United States, they 489 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 5: make in the United States, and they have a very 490 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 5: high percentage of American content. They are not making cars 491 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,239 Speaker 5: in Mexico. They're not importing a lot from Canada. Like, 492 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 5: they have a very domestic supply chain, which is why 493 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 5: they benefit so much. 494 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 3: They make all their parts or most of them. 495 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's why they actually benefit quite so much 496 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 5: from Biden's inflation Production Act is because they have so 497 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 5: much domestic content and domestic manufacturing. But with China, like 498 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 5: the plant in Shanghai exports those vehicles to Europe and 499 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 5: to Canada and is the most productive factory that they 500 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 5: have on the globe. And so as the trade war 501 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 5: evolves and like other nations get involved, like if Europe 502 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 5: gets dragged in, you could just see it having like 503 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 5: longer repercussions. But I think that like Musk is kind 504 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 5: of okay with tariffs because it hurts his competitors more 505 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 5: than it hurts him. I don't think Elon really cares though. 506 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 2: I do think though, that Musk cares about his companies, 507 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 2: and I think that as much as he's political, and 508 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 2: I will point out like he's had some real wins, 509 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 2: wins for his companies. So the new head of NASA 510 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 2: is a big fan at Elon Musk. The guy who's 511 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 2: gonna run the Air Force is a guy that Musk wanted, 512 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: and like these these are potential buyers of SpaceX's services. 513 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 2: I mean ted to me like one of the ways 514 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 2: that we're going to evaluate Elon's sort of performance in government, 515 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 2: there will be the doge metrics how much money did 516 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: he does he say cut? And then also like how 517 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 2: does it help his companies? I mean, where do you 518 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: think he stands right now? Like in terms of if 519 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,959 Speaker 2: you were just looking this as a transactional thing, like 520 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 2: what is he getting for all of this? 521 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 3: Do you think he's gotten anything? A lot, a little. 522 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: I would answer that question by pointing you to the 523 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: story that our Collie Kelsey Griffiths reported last night, which 524 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: is that the Trump folks are bringing in a critic 525 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: of the Biden era broadband rollout, which has been delayed 526 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: and subject of controversy. That's a forty two billion dollars 527 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,800 Speaker 1: pot of money that was not designed to just go 528 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 1: to starlink and they're not going to give it all 529 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: the month, but they're bringing in someone who didn't like 530 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: the program that he didn't like, who will presumably approach 531 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: it in a different fashion and will give him a 532 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: better opportunit getting some of that federal money. So I 533 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 1: think that that's the approach that we should expect him 534 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: to continue, taking a Dana, your point is well taken 535 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: that he's willing to have there be short term chaos 536 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: and pain and to do things that are not immediately 537 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: to his you know, you know, benefit on day two. 538 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: But I also do think that there's this sense that, 539 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 1: as you said, that there will be more contracts. 540 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 5: Elon gets the trough no matter what Biden is president, 541 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:31,439 Speaker 5: Like this fire hose of money in the form of 542 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 5: the Inflation Reduction Act is like aimed squarely at Tesla. 543 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 5: Trump gets elected, like now we're going to see maybe 544 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 5: more contracts for Starlink. Like no matter who's in power, 545 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 5: Elon wins. And it's because, frankly, his companies are the best, 546 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 5: Like SpaceX is the low cost provider that has conquered 547 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 5: the launch market, Tesla is the most profitable ev maker 548 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 5: in the United States, and and Elon has you know, 549 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 5: he's played both sides like throughout his career very adroitly. 550 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: I just want to end with sort of asking guys 551 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 2: to look ahead a little bit and sort of say, 552 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 2: what do each of you think we're going to be 553 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 2: talking about on the subject of Elon Musk and the 554 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 2: government next week? Which agency I guess is the next 555 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 2: target ted I'll start with you. 556 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: Oh, I have to pick an agency. I'm not going 557 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: to pick an agency. I will just say that these 558 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: guys are dedicated to doing what they're doing to the government. 559 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: They also seem a little bit new at it in 560 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: the way they talk about must keep saying we'll just 561 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: get rid of rules and add back one if we 562 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 1: decide we needed it suggests a total unfamiliarity with the 563 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: process that they're disrupting. And one aspect of that will 564 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: be they're going to gore an ox that they're not 565 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: expecting will be as big of a problem as it is. 566 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: And you're seeing that even among conservative Republican senators talking 567 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: about foreign aid, which they usually have no problem just 568 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: talking about how foreign eight is all the waste, But 569 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: even there you're starting to hear those rumblings of blowback. 570 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: And if continues with this approach, agency by agency across 571 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: the government, you start to hit things that people actually 572 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: do care about and that people who in the abstract 573 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: are for tearing it all down don't actually like when 574 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: you do it. So I think that that will be 575 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: the question is where does he cross that line with 576 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: which part of the Republican majority and what happens then. 577 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 5: So there are like four hundred government agencies and including 578 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 5: some small ones that nobody has ever heard about. But 579 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 5: I personally am going to keep my eye on the 580 00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 5: Department of Education because, as we've reported, like Musk has 581 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 5: a huge interest in education himself. He has a foundation 582 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 5: that's very dedicated to education. He has started a preschool 583 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,959 Speaker 5: in Texas. A lot of this is ideological around wokeism, 584 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 5: and you know, we don't have a confirmed head of 585 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 5: the Department of d yet, but I just sort of 586 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,719 Speaker 5: worry and predict that, like you will see Doge at 587 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 5: the Department of Bed relatively soon. 588 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, And to Ted's point, I mean that is going 589 00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 2: to be. 590 00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 3: A massive vector for blowback. 591 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 2: People get mad when their public schools start to get defunded, 592 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 2: and depending on how subtle this is, there could be 593 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 2: real consequences. Let's end there. Ted, Dana, thanks for being here. 594 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 2: Really appreciate it. 595 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you. 596 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 2: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong. Anna Masarakis is 597 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,959 Speaker 2: our editor, and Rahan Harmanci our senior editor. Blake Maple's 598 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 2: handles engineering and Dave Purcell fact checks. Our supervising producer 599 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 2: is Magnus Hendrickson. The Elanink theme is written and performed 600 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 2: by Taka Yazuzawa and Alex Sagierra. Brendan Francis Newnham is 601 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: our executive producer, and Sage Bauman is the head of 602 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: Bloomberg Podcasts Big thanks to Joel Weber. 603 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 3: And Brad Stone. I'm Max Chafkin. 604 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 2: If you have a minute, rate and review our show, 605 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 2: it'll help other listeners find us and we will see 606 00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 2: you next week.