WEBVTT - Crab Bag, Part 4: For Whom the Crab Tolls

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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<v Speaker 2>is Robert Lamb.

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<v Speaker 3>And I am Joe McCormick, and we are back with

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<v Speaker 3>the fourth and I think for now final part in

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<v Speaker 3>our crab Bag series. We've been doing episodes on all

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<v Speaker 3>things crab. No real organizing principle except I guess the

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<v Speaker 3>decapod crustacean body plan. In the previous three episodes of

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<v Speaker 3>this series, we have talked about a bunch of stuff.

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<v Speaker 3>We got into the legend of a miracle crab connected

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<v Speaker 3>with the Catholic missionary Saint Francis Xavier and how that

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<v Speaker 3>story connects loosely to a real species known as the

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<v Speaker 3>Crucifix crab, and we got into a bit about questions

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<v Speaker 3>of object carrying behavior in crabs. We talked about the

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<v Speaker 3>family of crabs known as Raninity or FROs, and they's

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<v Speaker 3>somewhat uncrab like. Elongated body shape crabs have a very

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<v Speaker 3>side to side kind of orientation. The Raninity have instead

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<v Speaker 3>specialized for backwards burrowing by somewhat elongating their body front

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<v Speaker 3>to back. We talked about a legendary type of monster

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<v Speaker 3>crab from the traditions of the Lunda people of Zambia.

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<v Speaker 3>A crab with two heads that attacks by eating your

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<v Speaker 3>shadow had some interesting hippopotamus properties as well. We talked

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<v Speaker 3>about the idea of seeing faces in the shells of crabs,

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<v Speaker 3>and in the last episode we read a bizarre and

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<v Speaker 3>interesting eighteen sixty four letter to Scientific American which argued

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<v Speaker 3>that the US Navy should construct a giant biomimetic attack

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<v Speaker 3>submarine based on the model of the Atlantic horseshoe crab.

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<v Speaker 3>The letter writer called this the King Crab Warship, and

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<v Speaker 3>this led into a general discussion about the sort of

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<v Speaker 3>patent fever surrounding the US Civil War and Abraham Lincoln's

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<v Speaker 3>surprising relationship with very eager inventors of every kind, and

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<v Speaker 3>this ran the whole gamut from scammers and cranks to

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<v Speaker 3>real innovators. And in that episode we also talked about

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<v Speaker 3>the cultural significance of crabs in China, including getting into

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<v Speaker 3>a short older report from Fujian of crabs being involved

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<v Speaker 3>in exorcism and protective magic. And then we also talked

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<v Speaker 3>about the more common association in China between crabs and

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<v Speaker 3>good fortune, wealth and luck, and got into a few

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<v Speaker 3>other stories there, like the story of Bajied, the first

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<v Speaker 3>man to eat a crab, which is a great distinction.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, So a lot of discussion of

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<v Speaker 2>crab iconography, with crabs clutching coins or setting on big

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<v Speaker 2>piles of coins, almost like a Western dragon. So was

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<v Speaker 2>really into that. One thing I wanted to mention You

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<v Speaker 2>were talking about the proposal that the United States needed

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<v Speaker 2>a large crab mech to do its bidding. This reminded

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<v Speaker 2>me of something. I was like, what is it reminding

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<v Speaker 2>me of? And it is the mobile Oppression Palace from Futurama.

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<v Speaker 2>This is an episode in which titled a Taste of Freedom,

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<v Speaker 2>one of my favorites, in which Zoidberg's people end up

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<v Speaker 2>temporarily conquering the earth and they have this giant crab

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<v Speaker 2>mech that also has a sand castle on top of

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<v Speaker 2>it and these big claws for tearing things apart, and

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<v Speaker 2>it is the mobile oppression Palace.

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<v Speaker 3>Does it crawl front to back or side to side.

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<v Speaker 2>A definite side to side movement as I recall, because

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<v Speaker 2>of course Zoidberg does a lot of side to side

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<v Speaker 2>movement from time to time, and the little crab dance. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so yeah, I'm excited to get into more crab topic.

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<v Speaker 2>I was showing you this before him, but I even

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<v Speaker 2>brought out my little crab mini here that I painted

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<v Speaker 2>a while back. Crab folk from Dungeons and Dragons.

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<v Speaker 3>Is this a playable people? Can you make crab folk characters?

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's not one of like the given species that

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<v Speaker 2>you can play, But I think ultimately you can play

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<v Speaker 2>any species you want. There are rules for adapting it,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think really we should all of all of

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<v Speaker 2>all of my fellow Dungeons and Dragons players out there,

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<v Speaker 2>go ahead and mix it up, and in your very

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<v Speaker 2>next session insist that your dungeon master let you play

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<v Speaker 2>a crab folk and insist on lateral movement only when

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<v Speaker 2>you're on the battle map.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh that's yeah, that's good. Uh okay, So are you

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<v Speaker 3>good if I kick things off today with a discussion

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<v Speaker 3>of claw fraud.

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<v Speaker 2>Claw fraud sounds perfect for our crab bag series. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>let's do it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay. So this is a bit of funny biological

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<v Speaker 3>research that I turned up when I was reading about

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<v Speaker 3>our old friends, the Fiddler Crabs. So the term Fiddler

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<v Speaker 3>crabs refers to any one of roughly one hundred species

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<v Speaker 3>in the Brachiurin family, Occipoddy brachurins are the true crabs.

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<v Speaker 3>So unlike some of the other examples we've been talking about,

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<v Speaker 3>like you know, horseshoe crabs are not true crabs. In fact,

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<v Speaker 3>they're not really crabs at all. They're just sort of

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<v Speaker 3>crabs by common naming convention. These are true crabs. They're brachurins.

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<v Speaker 3>The family again, is ossipodidy. Not all occipodity are fiddler crabs,

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<v Speaker 3>but all fiddler crabs are occipodity, and they are known

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<v Speaker 3>for their sexually dimorphic trait of extreme claw asymmetry. So

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<v Speaker 3>even if you've never read much about fiddler crabs before,

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<v Speaker 3>you've probably seen a picture of one of these at

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<v Speaker 3>some point. Among male fiddler crabs, one claw is way

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<v Speaker 3>bigger than the other. It's not just bigger, it is

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<v Speaker 3>often absurdly comically bigger than the other. In extreme cases,

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<v Speaker 3>the bigger claw is up to half of the male's

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<v Speaker 3>total body weight. So for a rough analogy, imagine you

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<v Speaker 3>know an average adult human male and one of his

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<v Speaker 3>hands is normal, but the other hand is about four

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<v Speaker 3>feet wide and weighs like eighty to one hundred pounds.

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<v Speaker 2>Right right oversized and as we'll get into expensive.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, we explored the biology of the fiddler crab in

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<v Speaker 3>a good bit of detail in a series we did

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<v Speaker 3>a few years back called The Lesser of Two Crab Claws.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that was the title we went with. Those

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<v Speaker 3>episodes were generally about asymmetry in nature, but the male

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<v Speaker 3>fiddler crab is one of the most amazing and bizarre

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<v Speaker 3>examples in the animal kingdom, so it had a kind

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<v Speaker 3>of central place in that series. I guess I'll start

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<v Speaker 3>off by mentioning a few general observations about fiddler crabs

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<v Speaker 3>before we get into the main claw research I wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to talk about today. As I already mentioned, this huge

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<v Speaker 3>asymmetrical claw is a sexually dimorphic trait, so you only

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<v Speaker 3>see it in males. Female fiddler crabs have two smaller,

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<v Speaker 3>matched regular size claws. Fiddler crabs are burrowing crabs, so

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<v Speaker 3>they nest in these little tunnels that they dig in

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<v Speaker 3>the mudflats or in the sandy intertidal areas where they live.

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<v Speaker 3>And exactly how the burrows are used varies between species,

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<v Speaker 3>but usually they're involved in say brooding, you know, laying

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<v Speaker 3>eggs or reproduction in some way, and the quality of

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<v Speaker 3>the burrow defended by a male contributes to the male's

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<v Speaker 3>success in mating. Fiddler crabs have a very interesting way

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<v Speaker 3>of eating. They use their front claws to shovel lumps

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<v Speaker 3>of sand or mud into their mouthparts, and then their

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<v Speaker 3>mouthparts rapidly dig around in this glob of sand or

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<v Speaker 3>mud to find clean and extract any edible material like

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<v Speaker 3>algae or bacteria or bits of dead other detrit us.

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<v Speaker 3>This feeding process creates a very cute waste product. Actually,

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<v Speaker 3>in a couple of sources I was seeing refer to

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<v Speaker 3>this as pseudo feces. I don't know if this technically

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<v Speaker 3>counts as pseudo feces to a zoologist or not, but

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<v Speaker 3>they're little leftover pellets of mud or sand that pile

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<v Speaker 3>up around the fiddler crab's burrow. These are the pellets

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<v Speaker 3>the crab has spit out after extracting food from them,

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<v Speaker 3>to the extent that they are called pseudo feces there.

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<v Speaker 3>This would be because they're not real feces that you know,

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<v Speaker 3>they haven't passed through the animal's whole digestive system. They're

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<v Speaker 3>sort of what gets rejected by the bouncer at the

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<v Speaker 3>entrance of the digestive system rather than what comes out

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<v Speaker 3>at the end, though they do look like and are

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<v Speaker 3>often mistaken for droppings, Hence they would be kind of

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<v Speaker 3>false feces. Rob I've got a picture for you to

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<v Speaker 3>look at in the outline here. I don't know why

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<v Speaker 3>these these little diesel balls are cute to me.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, And it really speaks to the metics nature

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<v Speaker 2>of crab consumption in general, and we as humans we

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<v Speaker 2>might think, oh, gross, you're producing pseudo feces. I think

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<v Speaker 2>the crabs, if they were capable of judging us back,

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<v Speaker 2>would say, it is disgusting that you are not producing

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<v Speaker 2>pseudo feces. You're just saying let it all in, we'll

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<v Speaker 2>work it all out in the truth feces at the end.

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<v Speaker 2>They would probably say disgusting. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I love thinking about their feeding method and trying to

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<v Speaker 3>imagine the human analogy. So it would be like if

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<v Speaker 3>you ate by running around in the yard and scooping

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<v Speaker 3>up handfuls of dirt from the ground, and then you

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<v Speaker 3>put the clod of dirt in your mouth and you

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<v Speaker 3>swish it around until you extract and swallow any earthworms,

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<v Speaker 3>edible roots termite larva like old dorrito as somebody dropped.

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<v Speaker 3>You get all that out of there, you swallow it,

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<v Speaker 3>and then you spit out a tidy little clod of

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<v Speaker 3>soil that is left over, and then you just keep

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<v Speaker 3>doing this over and over all day until you have

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<v Speaker 3>a little mountain of spherical dirt clods piled up around

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<v Speaker 3>your front door.

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<v Speaker 2>I love it. I celebrate it.

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<v Speaker 3>So this actually, this feeding method actually brings us back

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<v Speaker 3>to some interesting things about the claw asymmetry in male

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<v Speaker 3>fiddler crabs. As you might imagine, sifting balls of sand

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<v Speaker 3>and mud through your mouthparts is not the most efficient

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<v Speaker 3>way to find high quality nutrition, so you have to

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<v Speaker 3>do a lot of it. So eating mud is kind

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<v Speaker 3>of a It's a job that requires long hours, it

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<v Speaker 3>takes persistence, and for males it is even worse because

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<v Speaker 3>it turns out that one giant monster claw is pretty

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<v Speaker 3>much completely useless for feeding. So if you watch female

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<v Speaker 3>fiddler crabs eat, they will rapidly shovel mud and sand

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<v Speaker 3>into their mouthparts with both claws in a continuous back

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<v Speaker 3>and forth cycling motion. But because males only have the

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<v Speaker 3>one normal sized claw, their ability to feed themselves is

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<v Speaker 3>basically cut in half. It's like I've just got my

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<v Speaker 3>one good eaten hand and then I've got this big hand,

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<v Speaker 3>but I can't really use it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like if you went to an Ethiopian restaurant with

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<v Speaker 2>Freddy Krueger, Like, what's he gonna do? The claws just

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<v Speaker 2>got a set there.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so yeah with the with the knives, you can't

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<v Speaker 3>really scoop up with, you know, the delicious food. You've

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<v Speaker 3>only got the one hand to use. So, because they

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<v Speaker 3>only have the one claw that is useful for feeding,

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<v Speaker 3>male fiddler crabs have much lower foraging efficiency than females.

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<v Speaker 3>They might need to spend nearly twice as much time

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<v Speaker 3>eating to extract the same number of calories, so that

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<v Speaker 3>in itself is interesting. You might look at a male

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<v Speaker 3>fiddler crab with this one giant superclaw and you think

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<v Speaker 3>this is a mighty weapon. You know, it makes the

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<v Speaker 3>male that wields it incredibly hardy and healthy and fit.

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<v Speaker 3>And while a big claw might often be a sign

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<v Speaker 3>of underlying fitness, is not the cause of underlying fitness.

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<v Speaker 3>It mainly comes with downsides to the crab's ability to

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<v Speaker 3>survive the daily struggle for food. So not only does

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<v Speaker 3>the claw greatly hamper the mail crab's ability to eat.

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<v Speaker 3>It hugely increases the mail crab's food energy needs. So

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<v Speaker 3>you've got this big old claw. It's a heavy piece

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<v Speaker 3>of tissue, so it increases the crab's based metabolism, and

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<v Speaker 3>it also makes it more energetically expensive for the crab

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<v Speaker 3>to move, to run around and move because it's carrying

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<v Speaker 3>this thing. So you imagine if you had to live

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<v Speaker 3>your life with an eighty pound suitcase surgically attached to

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<v Speaker 3>your hand, that would kind of you would need to

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<v Speaker 3>eat more food. It would just you know, cause a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of trouble for everything else you needed to do well.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes me think too of examples of humans who cultivate,

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<v Speaker 2>say an extreme bodybuilder physique that then comes with its

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<v Speaker 2>own drawbacks, including perhaps having to eat like multiple boiled

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<v Speaker 2>chickens per day.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, good thing. This is a funny thing. Actually, if

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<v Speaker 3>you read about like serious bodybuilders, we're trying to maintain

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<v Speaker 3>huge amounts of muscle mass. A hilarious problem they talk

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<v Speaker 3>about is like difficulty eating as much as they need

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<v Speaker 3>to eat. Is like, ah, I got to eat you know,

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<v Speaker 3>fourteen chicken breasts today. I can't eat that much.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah. You hear stories about like pro wrestlers on

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<v Speaker 2>the road and trying to keep up with that kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thing, and it's like, oh, I'm in you know,

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<v Speaker 2>small town Minnesota, and I need to acquire this many

0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.319
<v Speaker 2>boiled chickens at the local waffle house.

0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:39.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So anyway, you might think, well, okay, so this

0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:42.439
<v Speaker 3>big crab claw, it comes at a metabolic cost. I

0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.920
<v Speaker 3>understand that it's heavy, it's hard to move around, it

0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:49.000
<v Speaker 3>increases your metabolism, but at least it's a big weapon

0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.280
<v Speaker 3>and it provides a defense against predators. So you know,

0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:54.240
<v Speaker 3>like something comes to eat you and you can use

0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:58.800
<v Speaker 3>the big claw to fight back. That is not necessarily true.

0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:02.679
<v Speaker 3>It might deter some predators, but research has found that

0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:07.079
<v Speaker 3>birds like grackles, which prey on fiddler crabs, are actually

0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:11.680
<v Speaker 3>more likely to target and attack males with big claws

0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.000
<v Speaker 3>than they are to attack females or males with smaller claws.

0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 3>So a big claw means you're number one, easier for

0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.000
<v Speaker 3>the predators to see, and also you are a more

0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:24.600
<v Speaker 3>valuable prize because there's more meat inside you.

0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.400
<v Speaker 2>Hmm yeah. Yeah, So the birds recognize the claw meat

0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:31.120
<v Speaker 2>is good and the claw meat is big in these specimens.

0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:33.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and you're just you're easier to pick out. You know,

0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 3>the birds flying above hunting for crabs. You like it

0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:49.800
<v Speaker 3>sees the one with waving the big claw around. So

0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.000
<v Speaker 3>if one giant claw comes with all of these tremendous

0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:57.760
<v Speaker 3>downsides to fitness, what is it for? It seems to

0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:02.400
<v Speaker 3>serve a major purpose related to reproduction, and then possibly

0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:06.440
<v Speaker 3>a couple of minor practical purposes. To start with the

0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.600
<v Speaker 3>minor practical purposes, I've read that males sometimes use the

0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 3>large claw to kind of cover and shield the entrances

0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.120
<v Speaker 3>of their burrows, so a large claw may provide extra

0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:21.560
<v Speaker 3>defense in some situations there but by far the most

0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.359
<v Speaker 3>widely recognized purpose of the large claw is in sexual

0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:31.840
<v Speaker 3>competition and sexual signaling to appeal to female fiddler crabs

0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.800
<v Speaker 3>and to intimidate and fight off rival males, especially in

0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:43.280
<v Speaker 3>competition for access to burrows and the quality of burrows

0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:46.440
<v Speaker 3>is in part what appeals to females who are looking

0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:50.640
<v Speaker 3>to mate. So when it comes time for mating, male

0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.720
<v Speaker 3>fiddler crabs engage in a ritualized behavior known as waving,

0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:58.480
<v Speaker 3>where they stake out territory in front of their burrows

0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:00.800
<v Speaker 3>and they wave their big claw up in the air

0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.000
<v Speaker 3>for all to see. Each fiddler species has its own

0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:09.520
<v Speaker 3>specific waving pattern, and this waving behavior serves to intimidate

0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:12.040
<v Speaker 3>rival males and drive them away from the area of

0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:15.560
<v Speaker 3>the crabs borough. A big claw so helps with this

0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:17.320
<v Speaker 3>as well, you got a big claw, so it's like,

0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:19.400
<v Speaker 3>oh wow, you know, don't want to mess with that guy.

0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:24.000
<v Speaker 3>And as for appealing to females, the results are in

0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:27.560
<v Speaker 3>and it turns out female fiddler crabs do like big claws,

0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.000
<v Speaker 3>that's what they're into. Big claws are often taken as

0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.080
<v Speaker 3>an honest signal of genetic fitness, for one thing, because

0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.880
<v Speaker 3>they take a lot of energy to grow and sustain,

0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:42.080
<v Speaker 3>so they are evidence that this crab must be eating well,

0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.640
<v Speaker 3>it's doing well, it's probably a good mate. And then

0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:50.560
<v Speaker 3>also crabs continue to grow throughout their lives, so that

0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:54.440
<v Speaker 3>means that bigger crabs tend to be older crabs. So

0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:58.480
<v Speaker 3>a bigger claw usually functions as a somewhat honest indication

0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.520
<v Speaker 3>that a particular crab is a survivor across many seasons.

0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:04.680
<v Speaker 2>All right, so some good genes there.

0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.920
<v Speaker 3>But there is an exception to this honest signaling principle,

0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.080
<v Speaker 3>and that's what got me interested in coming back to

0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.119
<v Speaker 3>the fiddler crab today. So, as I said earlier, I

0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:17.040
<v Speaker 3>want to talk about claw fraud, and this has to

0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:22.919
<v Speaker 3>do with regenerated limbs, an interesting topic unto itself. My

0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.359
<v Speaker 3>main source here is a Royal Society Biological Sciences paper

0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:29.400
<v Speaker 3>from the year two thousand by Patricia Backwell and co

0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:35.120
<v Speaker 3>authors called Dishonest Signaling in a Fiddler Crab. The authors

0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.640
<v Speaker 3>of this paper start off by talking about how when

0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:42.639
<v Speaker 3>animals exchange information with one another in situations in all

0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:46.280
<v Speaker 3>kinds of situations like predator prey interactions, make choice and

0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:51.520
<v Speaker 3>competition for resources, you would naturally expect to find some

0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:58.960
<v Speaker 3>evolutionary attempts at dishonest communication. So like, if we're always

0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.840
<v Speaker 3>going to compare shoe sizes to decide who gets to

0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.160
<v Speaker 3>eat this animal carcass, we both found it would pay

0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:07.720
<v Speaker 3>biologically for me to find a way to make my

0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:13.040
<v Speaker 3>feet seem bigger than they actually are. On the other hand,

0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:17.760
<v Speaker 3>there are some theories in biology that say, you know,

0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:22.399
<v Speaker 3>you can't have too much cheating or dishonesty in information

0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:27.280
<v Speaker 3>exchanges in nature, or the information exchange becomes unstable and

0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:29.199
<v Speaker 3>it just like doesn't really work for this, Like if

0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:34.000
<v Speaker 3>everybody's lying, then the signal just becomes unreliable and it's

0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.000
<v Speaker 3>it's no longer useful biologically.

0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:37.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that makes sense.

0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:40.359
<v Speaker 3>So the authors say, even though you would expect to

0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:44.480
<v Speaker 3>find some animals trying to cheat at trying to lie

0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.480
<v Speaker 3>at information exchange, they say that at the time of

0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.440
<v Speaker 3>this study in the year two thousand, empirical research had

0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:56.440
<v Speaker 3>not found many examples of cheating in sexually selected signals

0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:59.720
<v Speaker 3>in nature. The author is right quote this is not

0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:03.320
<v Speaker 3>so prizing since there are logistic and conceptual problems in

0:19:03.359 --> 0:19:08.159
<v Speaker 3>demonstrating cheating. Cheats are designed to go unnoticed. Even if

0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:12.520
<v Speaker 3>you identify an individual with a disproportionately large signal for

0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:16.520
<v Speaker 3>its underlying quality, it is unclear how you can differentiate

0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:21.199
<v Speaker 3>this from natural variation in the relationship between signal size

0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:26.520
<v Speaker 3>and male quality. However, in the fiddler crab species that

0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:31.800
<v Speaker 3>they call Uca and ulypis now known as Ostrica and Ulypus,

0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:35.560
<v Speaker 3>they argue that it is possible to identify a clear

0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:40.680
<v Speaker 3>example of a dishonest sexually selected signal, and it goes

0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:44.840
<v Speaker 3>like this. When crabs lose a limb, they can often

0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:48.000
<v Speaker 3>grow it back. You know, this is one of the

0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.520
<v Speaker 3>advantages of being something like a crab. Mammals or not

0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.320
<v Speaker 3>like this. We can regenerate some types of tissue, but

0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.560
<v Speaker 3>if we lose a whole limb, it's gone. You know,

0:19:55.720 --> 0:20:00.760
<v Speaker 3>it's not growing back. But crabs frequently lose limp due

0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:04.679
<v Speaker 3>to attacks by predators or fights with rival males, and

0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:09.680
<v Speaker 3>grow new limbs in their place. So, according to the authors,

0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.600
<v Speaker 3>when most filler crab species lose a claw, they regenerate

0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:16.280
<v Speaker 3>one that is pretty similar to the original in form,

0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:21.520
<v Speaker 3>But in a few species, including Ostrica and Alypus quote,

0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:26.439
<v Speaker 3>males instead regenerate claws that are lighter, more slender, and

0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:31.680
<v Speaker 3>less robust, which they call leptokilus than the original claus,

0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:36.160
<v Speaker 3>which are called brachikilus. So again, Brachychelus means it's the

0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:40.960
<v Speaker 3>strong claw that the crab had originally. The leptokilis claw

0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:47.360
<v Speaker 3>is the weaker, less muscled regenerated claw, they continue quote.

0:20:47.440 --> 0:20:51.480
<v Speaker 3>For a given claw length, leptokilis claws have a smaller

0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:55.280
<v Speaker 3>muscle mass than do brachykilis claws, and they may thus

0:20:55.359 --> 0:21:00.280
<v Speaker 3>be weaker and less effective weapons. So these regenera did

0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:04.080
<v Speaker 3>leptokilis clause match the original big claw in some ways.

0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:08.280
<v Speaker 3>For example, they sometimes match it in length, but are

0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.800
<v Speaker 3>reduced in terms of strength and internal muscle mass. So

0:21:12.840 --> 0:21:16.040
<v Speaker 3>they regrow a claw that looks big, but it is

0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:20.560
<v Speaker 3>literally partially hollow, like, it does have muscles inside, but

0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.840
<v Speaker 3>it's got less muscle mass inside than the original claw did.

0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:27.000
<v Speaker 3>So if it actually came down to a real fight,

0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:31.880
<v Speaker 3>this regenerated claw would usually lose. And the authors did

0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:34.960
<v Speaker 3>test this out. They staged some fiddler crab fights to

0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.240
<v Speaker 3>make sure, and they indeed found that the Leptokilis males

0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:42.199
<v Speaker 3>were significantly worse at fighting and lost in battle against

0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:43.440
<v Speaker 3>Brackykilis males.

0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:49.240
<v Speaker 2>So it's kind of like imagine a bodybuilder who has

0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.879
<v Speaker 2>not maintained the same physique that they previously had, but

0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:57.200
<v Speaker 2>then for their dating profile photo they use some alchemy

0:21:57.440 --> 0:22:02.840
<v Speaker 2>of dishonest photoshoppery or generative AI to make their current

0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:05.760
<v Speaker 2>physique look like their previous physique. So on one level,

0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:08.399
<v Speaker 2>they're saying this is accurate because this is what I

0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:12.680
<v Speaker 2>once had, but in reality it is not packed the

0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:14.840
<v Speaker 2>same strength and it is there is a dishonesty to

0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:15.399
<v Speaker 2>the signal.

0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.440
<v Speaker 3>Right, yeah, maybe they're like stuffing fake muscles under their

0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:22.560
<v Speaker 3>shirt or something so like, look, I look pretty big,

0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:25.400
<v Speaker 3>but I don't I can't actually lift as much weight

0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:26.639
<v Speaker 3>as I as I once could.

0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:27.200
<v Speaker 2>Right.

0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:33.080
<v Speaker 3>However, crab competition often does not come down to real fighting,

0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:38.600
<v Speaker 3>and intimidation displays can drive away rivals before a fight begins.

0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:41.120
<v Speaker 3>We've talked about this a lot on the show before.

0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:43.639
<v Speaker 3>This is the case with tons of animal species that

0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:48.600
<v Speaker 3>have aggressive competition for mates. It is in everybody's interest

0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:51.840
<v Speaker 3>to avoid a fight whenever possible, because even if you

0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:57.400
<v Speaker 3>win the fight, actually fighting cost energy, it is risky

0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.480
<v Speaker 3>and could lead to injuries which reduce fitness and could

0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:03.960
<v Speaker 3>later kill you. So fighting is just something you want

0:23:04.000 --> 0:23:06.479
<v Speaker 3>to avoid, even if you're probably going to win. So

0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:10.320
<v Speaker 3>it's better for everybody involved if the competing males have

0:23:10.400 --> 0:23:14.159
<v Speaker 3>a way of sizing each other up and deciding who

0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:17.720
<v Speaker 3>would probably win the fight, allowing them to skip the

0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:21.280
<v Speaker 3>fight altogether, so you know the likely loser, they have

0:23:21.400 --> 0:23:23.800
<v Speaker 3>some kind of piece of evidence, you know, maybe horn

0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.240
<v Speaker 3>size or in the case of crabs, probably claw size,

0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:30.840
<v Speaker 3>They see the evidence of the likely winner's fitness, and

0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:36.320
<v Speaker 3>the likely loser just retreats before combat starts. Previous research

0:23:36.400 --> 0:23:39.600
<v Speaker 3>in fiddler crabs has found that the main criterion that

0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:43.679
<v Speaker 3>males use to assess each other's fighting ability is big

0:23:43.800 --> 0:23:48.440
<v Speaker 3>claw length, which is not necessarily reduced to the same

0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:51.360
<v Speaker 3>degree in the regenerated claw. The way that other measures

0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:56.040
<v Speaker 3>like strength and internal muscle mass are also appeal to

0:23:56.160 --> 0:24:00.760
<v Speaker 3>females seems related to assessments of claw length. Females of

0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.520
<v Speaker 3>this fiddler crab species are looking for males with a

0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:08.919
<v Speaker 3>long claw, so how does this relate to regeneration. The

0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:12.439
<v Speaker 3>authors of the paper set out to investigate whether in

0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:17.880
<v Speaker 3>this species the weaker, partially hollow regenerated clause would serve

0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:22.840
<v Speaker 3>as a dishonest but effective signal to win mating opportunities.

0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:28.080
<v Speaker 3>Could males with these weaker claws bluff their way into

0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:33.000
<v Speaker 3>competitive victory, control of burrows and into sects And the

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 3>answer is basically yes, the bluffing works. So one way

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:41.600
<v Speaker 3>of assessing the question is if males with strong original

0:24:41.640 --> 0:24:45.719
<v Speaker 3>clause usually win fights against males with the regenerated clause,

0:24:46.520 --> 0:24:50.560
<v Speaker 3>do the males with strong original clause seek out males

0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:54.560
<v Speaker 3>with regenerated clause to dominate in bully or are they

0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:59.080
<v Speaker 3>more likely to aggressively escalate to real fighting against males

0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:02.080
<v Speaker 3>with regenerated claus. In this study, the answer was no.

0:25:02.359 --> 0:25:06.200
<v Speaker 3>It really just doesn't affect choices about whether to fight

0:25:06.320 --> 0:25:06.920
<v Speaker 3>or who to fight.

0:25:07.240 --> 0:25:07.680
<v Speaker 2>Quote.

0:25:07.840 --> 0:25:11.399
<v Speaker 3>Males with original clause do not differentially fight males with

0:25:11.480 --> 0:25:15.560
<v Speaker 3>regenerated claws, even though they're likely to win. Regenerated clause

0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:20.160
<v Speaker 3>effectively bluff fighting ability and deter potential opponents before they fight.

0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:24.399
<v Speaker 3>So the partially hollow claws, the weaker, less muscled claus

0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:28.560
<v Speaker 3>are an effective bluff against rival males, and again, do

0:25:28.600 --> 0:25:33.159
<v Speaker 3>they convince females Yes? Quote During mate searching, females do

0:25:33.240 --> 0:25:37.600
<v Speaker 3>not discriminate against males with low mass regenerated claws, indicating

0:25:37.640 --> 0:25:40.639
<v Speaker 3>that they are deceived as to the true cost males

0:25:40.680 --> 0:25:44.879
<v Speaker 3>pay to produce sexual signals. So it really seems like

0:25:44.920 --> 0:25:47.639
<v Speaker 3>the the you know, the weaker claw is a very

0:25:47.680 --> 0:25:51.280
<v Speaker 3>smart gamble. It is true, it's not as good at fighting,

0:25:51.680 --> 0:25:54.320
<v Speaker 3>but at least within the species, it gets the important

0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:59.639
<v Speaker 3>jobs of bluffing rival males and impressing females done quite well.

0:26:00.480 --> 0:26:03.920
<v Speaker 2>And this is the primary These are the primary spaces

0:26:03.960 --> 0:26:06.080
<v Speaker 2>where the crab claw is useful.

0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:09.280
<v Speaker 3>Anyway, Yeah, I mean, sometimes it does come down to

0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:11.600
<v Speaker 3>a fight. But you want to avoid fighting anywhere, right,

0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:14.200
<v Speaker 3>So sometimes you'll have to fight and you're kind of

0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:17.520
<v Speaker 3>out of luck there, but most of the time you're

0:26:17.560 --> 0:26:20.800
<v Speaker 3>just trying to get by without fighting. So the authors

0:26:20.880 --> 0:26:24.080
<v Speaker 3>note that in natural populations of this species, up to

0:26:24.280 --> 0:26:28.000
<v Speaker 3>forty four percent of males are leptokuilas they have the

0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:31.960
<v Speaker 3>regenerated weaker claw, and it's kind of like, why not

0:26:32.600 --> 0:26:36.439
<v Speaker 3>the author's right quote. Since Leptokilis claws have a lower

0:26:36.480 --> 0:26:41.359
<v Speaker 3>mass than brachikilis clauseleptekilis males use less energy to wave

0:26:41.440 --> 0:26:44.680
<v Speaker 3>at a given rate. Remember, the sexual display is waving

0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:46.840
<v Speaker 3>the big claw in the air, so if you've got

0:26:46.880 --> 0:26:49.600
<v Speaker 3>a claw with less muscle mass in it, it's easier

0:26:49.640 --> 0:26:52.359
<v Speaker 3>to wave around, so you can actually show off more

0:26:52.840 --> 0:26:57.840
<v Speaker 3>with a weaker claw. Quote. Thus, even when in relatively

0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:02.439
<v Speaker 3>poor condition compared with Brakikilas males, Leptokulis males can wave

0:27:02.520 --> 0:27:07.520
<v Speaker 3>at the same rate. In biological terms, it's cheaper to

0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:11.440
<v Speaker 3>make and maintain, and it's easier to use for their

0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:16.040
<v Speaker 3>primary purpose, and it works just as well for most things,

0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:19.520
<v Speaker 3>it seems like, so the real question kind of turns

0:27:19.520 --> 0:27:24.119
<v Speaker 3>into why do the male fiddler crabs produce the original

0:27:24.240 --> 0:27:27.160
<v Speaker 3>stronger claw in the first place, Like, why hasn't evolution

0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:31.000
<v Speaker 3>just completely gotten rid of the strong claw and you know,

0:27:31.359 --> 0:27:34.879
<v Speaker 3>just started making these weaker, more hollow claws because the

0:27:34.880 --> 0:27:37.480
<v Speaker 3>strong claw is very costly. It's a great burden to

0:27:37.520 --> 0:27:41.000
<v Speaker 3>the crab. One thing that again is worth noting, is

0:27:41.040 --> 0:27:44.440
<v Speaker 3>that if there is too much cheating or dishonest signaling

0:27:44.480 --> 0:27:48.160
<v Speaker 3>within a population of animals, of course the signal loses

0:27:48.200 --> 0:27:50.760
<v Speaker 3>its value, right, So that can be you know that

0:27:50.920 --> 0:27:56.000
<v Speaker 3>the whole system can be destabilized by excessive deception or cheating.

0:27:56.640 --> 0:28:00.360
<v Speaker 3>But that doesn't necessarily explain like why the individual will

0:28:00.800 --> 0:28:03.640
<v Speaker 3>you know, what would be against the individual crab evolving

0:28:03.640 --> 0:28:06.960
<v Speaker 3>in that direction to just have the weaker hollow clause

0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:11.439
<v Speaker 3>from the beginning. And so the authors do explore this

0:28:11.480 --> 0:28:14.240
<v Speaker 3>a little bit. They say one difference is that since

0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:19.480
<v Speaker 3>the leptokilis males are worse at actually fighting, they are

0:28:19.520 --> 0:28:23.119
<v Speaker 3>somewhat more likely to lose their burrows in fights to

0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:26.959
<v Speaker 3>be driven away by stronger males. The authors tracked this

0:28:27.040 --> 0:28:29.439
<v Speaker 3>behavior as well. They were like, what happens after this?

0:28:29.640 --> 0:28:34.360
<v Speaker 3>What happens to both leptokilis and Brachikilus crabs after they're

0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:37.480
<v Speaker 3>driven from their burrows and have to find a new one.

0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:41.520
<v Speaker 3>The authors discovered that there was no major difference in

0:28:41.600 --> 0:28:44.240
<v Speaker 3>how long it took them to find new boroughs, nor

0:28:44.320 --> 0:28:47.040
<v Speaker 3>in the distance they had to travel, nor in the

0:28:47.120 --> 0:28:52.040
<v Speaker 3>number of fights initiated in competition for burroughs. There was

0:28:52.240 --> 0:28:56.600
<v Speaker 3>a difference in how the crabs got new burroughs. So

0:28:56.840 --> 0:29:01.200
<v Speaker 3>Brachikilus males more often got their new borough by fighting

0:29:01.280 --> 0:29:05.640
<v Speaker 3>and driving out an occupant. Leptochilus males more often found

0:29:05.760 --> 0:29:11.080
<v Speaker 3>empty burrows and moved in. But then again, does this

0:29:11.160 --> 0:29:13.880
<v Speaker 3>really make a difference. The authors looked into it, and

0:29:13.920 --> 0:29:16.880
<v Speaker 3>they found that the empty burrows that were occupied by

0:29:17.000 --> 0:29:20.600
<v Speaker 3>the lighter clawed males were just as attractive to females

0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:24.080
<v Speaker 3>and thus were no lower in quality than the occupied

0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:28.880
<v Speaker 3>burrows that were seized by fighting. Quote Hence, neither the

0:29:28.960 --> 0:29:32.959
<v Speaker 3>process nor the outcome of searching for new burroughs seems

0:29:32.960 --> 0:29:37.040
<v Speaker 3>to be more costly for Leptokilis than Brachykilus males. A

0:29:37.120 --> 0:29:40.920
<v Speaker 3>higher frequency of borrow loss for Leptochilus males is the

0:29:40.960 --> 0:29:44.400
<v Speaker 3>only cost that seems to favor the Brachykilis claw form,

0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:46.760
<v Speaker 3>So the only difference they're finding is that when you

0:29:46.800 --> 0:29:49.200
<v Speaker 3>have the weaker claw, you're more likely to lose your

0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:53.400
<v Speaker 3>burrow to be driven out. They say. Quote, small males

0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:57.000
<v Speaker 3>are on average more often involved in fights since there

0:29:57.040 --> 0:30:00.000
<v Speaker 3>are more males in the population that are slightly large

0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:04.400
<v Speaker 3>than them. The increased benefits of having a brachykili's claw

0:30:04.680 --> 0:30:09.160
<v Speaker 3>when small may therefore select for the initial production of

0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:14.240
<v Speaker 3>this robust claw form. As males grow, the relative frequency

0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:19.560
<v Speaker 3>of fighting decreases, and brachikille may be less advantageous. Moreover,

0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:25.840
<v Speaker 3>larger males spend more time waving. Something feels almost metaphorically

0:30:25.880 --> 0:30:29.720
<v Speaker 3>interesting about this, So like, when you're young, you are

0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:32.560
<v Speaker 3>more likely to have to fight for what you get

0:30:32.800 --> 0:30:35.640
<v Speaker 3>or have to fight to defend what you've got, so

0:30:35.920 --> 0:30:39.640
<v Speaker 3>it pays to have the actual muscle inside. Because you're smaller,

0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:42.760
<v Speaker 3>you look like a softer target, so you're to be

0:30:42.920 --> 0:30:45.960
<v Speaker 3>you're going to be escalating to actual fights more often

0:30:46.040 --> 0:30:49.720
<v Speaker 3>when you're younger, But as you get older and bigger

0:30:49.920 --> 0:30:53.960
<v Speaker 3>and scarier, you can more often bluff your way out

0:30:54.000 --> 0:30:57.960
<v Speaker 3>of fights. Thus the advantage of having a real fighting

0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:01.440
<v Speaker 3>claw is reduced and starts to pay more and more

0:31:01.600 --> 0:31:04.960
<v Speaker 3>to bluff and cheat with with with this weaker claw

0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:07.200
<v Speaker 3>that is easy to wave around in the air.

0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is fascinating, And yeah, we can think of

0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:16.480
<v Speaker 2>various various human analogies for that. I'm sure you know

0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:19.880
<v Speaker 2>in you know, in the fighting base, but also you know,

0:31:20.320 --> 0:31:23.280
<v Speaker 2>in other aspects of life as well. Well.

0:31:23.440 --> 0:31:26.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, this is not a perfect analogy, but it kind

0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:29.080
<v Speaker 3>of reminds me of adages, like, you know, give someone

0:31:29.080 --> 0:31:31.360
<v Speaker 3>a reputation as an early riser and they can sleep

0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:35.040
<v Speaker 3>till noon. There's there's sort of a principle that once

0:31:35.160 --> 0:31:38.640
<v Speaker 3>you your reputation is already established, or you have some

0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:42.360
<v Speaker 3>kind of you have some kind of appearance of prestige

0:31:42.520 --> 0:31:46.560
<v Speaker 3>or having been established, you have to do less actual

0:31:46.640 --> 0:31:49.160
<v Speaker 3>work or it will less often come down to you

0:31:49.240 --> 0:31:53.000
<v Speaker 3>really proving your ability, and more often you can kind

0:31:53.000 --> 0:31:56.360
<v Speaker 3>of bluff and cheat your way through situations because people

0:31:56.400 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 3>are you know, you seem to be established, you are

0:31:58.920 --> 0:32:02.600
<v Speaker 3>more intimidating, andeople are less likely to question you, and

0:32:02.680 --> 0:32:06.800
<v Speaker 3>so real ability to compete at whatever, real ability to

0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:10.520
<v Speaker 3>do the thing tends to be much more important when

0:32:10.520 --> 0:32:14.280
<v Speaker 3>you have less of a reputation already. Yeah, but it's

0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:16.480
<v Speaker 3>also really interesting to come back to the idea of

0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:20.960
<v Speaker 3>how of course, you know, systems of information exchange are

0:32:21.080 --> 0:32:26.440
<v Speaker 3>always destabilized and eventually destroyed if there is enough lying

0:32:26.520 --> 0:32:30.760
<v Speaker 3>within the system, Like information exchange doesn't work if everybody's lying.

0:32:31.840 --> 0:32:36.120
<v Speaker 3>So it is kind of surprising to me that there

0:32:36.560 --> 0:32:42.840
<v Speaker 3>could still remain this type of sexual signaling, this type

0:32:42.880 --> 0:32:47.280
<v Speaker 3>of information exchange based on claw size in populations that

0:32:47.360 --> 0:32:51.520
<v Speaker 3>have rates this high of deception in them. That might

0:32:51.600 --> 0:32:53.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, in some cases up to forty you know,

0:32:53.520 --> 0:32:57.720
<v Speaker 3>nearly half of males are using a claw that misrepresents

0:32:57.760 --> 0:32:58.720
<v Speaker 3>their ability to fight.

0:32:59.480 --> 0:33:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is fascinating, Like the signal has somehow not

0:33:02.600 --> 0:33:06.959
<v Speaker 2>become completely useless, and it hasn't begin to unravel as

0:33:06.960 --> 0:33:07.760
<v Speaker 2>far as we can tell.

0:33:08.040 --> 0:33:10.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I didn't look into the like the math of

0:33:10.080 --> 0:33:12.120
<v Speaker 3>what are thought to be the limits on you know,

0:33:12.200 --> 0:33:16.280
<v Speaker 3>the theoretical limits of ratios within a population of deception,

0:33:17.400 --> 0:33:20.480
<v Speaker 3>But that would just intuitively seem to me to be

0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:22.920
<v Speaker 3>near the edge, Like that's goin to be about as

0:33:22.960 --> 0:33:25.160
<v Speaker 3>high as you can get. I don't know, yeah, especially,

0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:27.560
<v Speaker 3>I mean you can. I guess it's a bit more

0:33:27.600 --> 0:33:33.520
<v Speaker 3>complicated in human scenarios because human cultures involve so many

0:33:33.560 --> 0:33:37.160
<v Speaker 3>other factors and there's so many different ways we're communicating

0:33:37.200 --> 0:33:39.520
<v Speaker 3>to each other. We're not just waving our claw around

0:33:39.520 --> 0:33:42.440
<v Speaker 3>in the air and so forth. That's certainly true, though

0:33:42.520 --> 0:33:45.400
<v Speaker 3>I would say I'm I'm always cautious on the show

0:33:45.440 --> 0:33:49.960
<v Speaker 3>to draw too many direct analogies from animal behavior to

0:33:50.320 --> 0:33:55.800
<v Speaker 3>lessons in human life, because not just any animals. Yeah,

0:33:55.880 --> 0:34:02.160
<v Speaker 3>but I think it's absolutely true that that our lives

0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:06.960
<v Speaker 3>are sustained by tons of systems that rely on honest communication,

0:34:07.520 --> 0:34:10.600
<v Speaker 3>and that when you reach certain thresholds of lying within

0:34:10.640 --> 0:34:13.879
<v Speaker 3>those systems, the systems do break down, and that can

0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:18.880
<v Speaker 3>have devastating consequences. Like our lives are sustained by webs

0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:22.520
<v Speaker 3>of trust, and you know, enough violations of that trust

0:34:22.600 --> 0:34:25.960
<v Speaker 3>pile up, and like there are devastating consequences for the species.

0:34:26.400 --> 0:34:40.000
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely all right, For the remainder of the episode, here,

0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:42.160
<v Speaker 2>we're going to turn back to the world of Yes,

0:34:42.200 --> 0:34:45.200
<v Speaker 2>there's going to be more crab demons and more crab spirits,

0:34:46.480 --> 0:34:51.359
<v Speaker 2>mostly diving into more really back into the world of

0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:54.480
<v Speaker 2>crabs from Japanese folklore and in a little bit from

0:34:54.560 --> 0:34:55.760
<v Speaker 2>pop culture as well.

0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:57.640
<v Speaker 3>I'm very excited for this.

0:34:58.320 --> 0:35:02.560
<v Speaker 2>So we've already covered the samurai crabs of Haika, and

0:35:02.640 --> 0:35:04.879
<v Speaker 2>of course, as we mentioned, this was something we talked

0:35:04.880 --> 0:35:06.560
<v Speaker 2>about in a much older episode of Stuff to Blow

0:35:06.640 --> 0:35:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Your Mind you can find in our audio archives wherever

0:35:09.200 --> 0:35:13.680
<v Speaker 2>you get your podcasts. But Japanese culture is much amused

0:35:13.680 --> 0:35:17.839
<v Speaker 2>by crabs, which makes sense. Crabs are endlessly amusing, and

0:35:17.880 --> 0:35:20.360
<v Speaker 2>so there are so many other examples to draw from.

0:35:21.000 --> 0:35:24.279
<v Speaker 2>We briefly mention the late Japanese pro wrestler of Grand

0:35:24.320 --> 0:35:28.200
<v Speaker 2>Naniwa and the two thousand and six comedy crab Goalkeeper,

0:35:28.600 --> 0:35:31.160
<v Speaker 2>but there are of course numerous other monster crabs and

0:35:31.239 --> 0:35:35.200
<v Speaker 2>kaiju crabs to reference. There's one in the nineteen seventy

0:35:35.239 --> 0:35:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Toho film Space Amiba, and then there is of course

0:35:39.200 --> 0:35:42.080
<v Speaker 2>Ibira Horror of the Deep from the nineteen sixty six

0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:45.200
<v Speaker 2>Godzilla movie of the same name. I think the US

0:35:45.320 --> 0:35:47.480
<v Speaker 2>name for this is what Godzilla versus the crab monster.

0:35:48.000 --> 0:35:50.839
<v Speaker 3>Oh okay, are these crabs? I don't know. I feel

0:35:50.840 --> 0:35:52.960
<v Speaker 3>like both of them are a little more lobstery. Don't

0:35:52.960 --> 0:35:55.840
<v Speaker 3>they feel kind of elongated? Am I wrong about that? Well?

0:35:55.880 --> 0:35:58.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, if a horseshoe crab is a crab, and

0:35:59.000 --> 0:36:02.320
<v Speaker 2>these crab monsters can be crabs, nobody's calling it Godzilla

0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:08.040
<v Speaker 2>versus the lobster. So I'm giving them crabdom status.

0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:09.320
<v Speaker 3>God Zilla versus the shrimp.

0:36:10.440 --> 0:36:15.320
<v Speaker 2>It could be yeah, yeah, Prong Kaiju giant mantis shrimp.

0:36:15.400 --> 0:36:19.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah that'd be yeah, yeah, absolutely quite a punch. Let's

0:36:19.320 --> 0:36:21.719
<v Speaker 2>see another. Really, I was looking around for Okay, what

0:36:21.719 --> 0:36:23.640
<v Speaker 2>are some that I'm not familiar with, some that I've

0:36:23.680 --> 0:36:26.600
<v Speaker 2>never seen. And there's a really fun sounding example in

0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:30.640
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen sixty nine anime film Flying Phantom Ship, which

0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:34.400
<v Speaker 2>features some early Miyazaki designs and animation. This is a

0:36:34.440 --> 0:36:37.719
<v Speaker 2>movie that has some sort of a pirate ship, a

0:36:37.760 --> 0:36:41.279
<v Speaker 2>flying pirate ship sort of. There's a giant robot, and

0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:44.280
<v Speaker 2>then there is also a giant crab. And I included

0:36:44.320 --> 0:36:46.120
<v Speaker 2>images of this crab for you here, Joe.

0:36:46.600 --> 0:36:48.799
<v Speaker 3>And this is weird. I thought I had tracked down

0:36:48.960 --> 0:36:52.200
<v Speaker 3>all giant crab movies before, but I didn't know about

0:36:52.200 --> 0:36:52.600
<v Speaker 3>this one.

0:36:52.920 --> 0:36:55.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this one is new to me as well, you know,

0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:59.360
<v Speaker 2>certainly familiar with some of the the the Western examples

0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:03.719
<v Speaker 2>of giant crab movies. Yeah, let's see, there's a these

0:37:03.719 --> 0:37:07.520
<v Speaker 2>are not giant crabs. But I found a tantalizing example

0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:10.480
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen eighty two American Japanese horror film The

0:37:10.480 --> 0:37:13.880
<v Speaker 2>House where Evil Dwells. This is a ghost movie, but

0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:17.640
<v Speaker 2>there's a scene where the ghosts either take the form

0:37:17.920 --> 0:37:20.600
<v Speaker 2>of a swarm of spider crabs or they kind of

0:37:20.640 --> 0:37:23.480
<v Speaker 2>like dredge up a swarm of spider crabs and they

0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:28.399
<v Speaker 2>attack one of the human characters. Okay, There of course

0:37:28.440 --> 0:37:32.480
<v Speaker 2>plenty more recent examples of crab related beings in Japanese

0:37:32.520 --> 0:37:36.000
<v Speaker 2>pop culture. There is, I believe if I'm pronouncing this correctly,

0:37:36.040 --> 0:37:39.799
<v Speaker 2>there is crab Lante from One punch Man. This is

0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:42.160
<v Speaker 2>not a show. I'm really familiar with it all. It's

0:37:42.200 --> 0:37:47.080
<v Speaker 2>based on Amonga. A twenty sixteen episode featured this crab

0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:50.000
<v Speaker 2>based human who kind of looks like a muscly man

0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:54.200
<v Speaker 2>in a pair of tidy whitey underwear, but his torso

0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:57.200
<v Speaker 2>and head they're all like crab based.

0:37:57.480 --> 0:38:01.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So he's got, you know, based, a human shaped

0:38:01.320 --> 0:38:04.680
<v Speaker 3>arm with a bend at the elbow. But then the forearm,

0:38:04.920 --> 0:38:07.560
<v Speaker 3>instead of a human forearm, is a big crab claw.

0:38:07.880 --> 0:38:11.600
<v Speaker 3>In that respect, he resembles Popeye with the big forearms

0:38:11.600 --> 0:38:12.719
<v Speaker 3>except their claws.

0:38:13.080 --> 0:38:17.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And if I'm to trust the subtitles on the screencap,

0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:20.640
<v Speaker 2>I grabbed here he was transformed into a crab because

0:38:20.640 --> 0:38:22.840
<v Speaker 2>he ate too much crab, which that checks.

0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:23.800
<v Speaker 3>Out, that does happen.

0:38:23.880 --> 0:38:28.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so I decided to dig more into some crab

0:38:28.760 --> 0:38:31.920
<v Speaker 2>folklore and sort of like the folkloric types you can

0:38:31.960 --> 0:38:36.160
<v Speaker 2>find in Japanese folklore. And I was looking at a book.

0:38:36.200 --> 0:38:40.160
<v Speaker 2>This is from nineteen sixty six by Kego Seki, and

0:38:40.239 --> 0:38:44.040
<v Speaker 2>it is types of Japanese folk tales. And some of

0:38:44.040 --> 0:38:47.520
<v Speaker 2>these are very simple, like some of them are basically

0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:49.920
<v Speaker 2>like a crab saves a girl from a snake, a

0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:53.120
<v Speaker 2>man punishes his wife for killing and eating his favorite crab.

0:38:53.440 --> 0:38:56.279
<v Speaker 2>And as general types, these are going to be more

0:38:56.320 --> 0:38:58.279
<v Speaker 2>embellished in the actual telling, you know.

0:38:58.760 --> 0:39:00.719
<v Speaker 3>So there's kind of a skeleton of the story that

0:39:00.800 --> 0:39:03.719
<v Speaker 3>remains the same and people add their own embellishments and

0:39:03.760 --> 0:39:04.600
<v Speaker 3>details to it.

0:39:04.880 --> 0:39:06.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, If any any of you out there have

0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:12.080
<v Speaker 2>dug around too much in folklore academic work, you'll know

0:39:12.080 --> 0:39:14.280
<v Speaker 2>that you have the different numbers as well, the numbering

0:39:14.320 --> 0:39:17.240
<v Speaker 2>system of the tail types and so forth, and people

0:39:17.239 --> 0:39:19.799
<v Speaker 2>can be like, ah, this is a sixty six. It's

0:39:19.800 --> 0:39:24.400
<v Speaker 2>a good one right there. But yeah, so I do

0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:26.399
<v Speaker 2>want to point out though, the basic one here about

0:39:26.680 --> 0:39:30.200
<v Speaker 2>a crab saving a girl from a snake. This one,

0:39:30.719 --> 0:39:34.239
<v Speaker 2>this particular trope of a crab protector factors into a

0:39:34.280 --> 0:39:39.440
<v Speaker 2>key early Japanese animated film, nineteen twenty five's Crab Temple

0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:44.560
<v Speaker 2>omen and in fact, future big time Japanese director Tamu

0:39:44.719 --> 0:39:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Ocheedah worked on this one. He's a guy who's really

0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:52.880
<v Speaker 2>not otherwise known for animation, most famous for such Japanese

0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:56.360
<v Speaker 2>films as fifty five's Bloody Spear at Mount Fuji. Sixty

0:39:56.360 --> 0:39:58.239
<v Speaker 2>two is the Mad Fox and sixty five is the

0:39:58.280 --> 0:40:01.600
<v Speaker 2>Fugitive from the past, but he was involved in this

0:40:02.400 --> 0:40:05.960
<v Speaker 2>bit of animation, and the style is that of silhouette animation.

0:40:06.440 --> 0:40:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Joe quoted screenshot here. I think this will remind you

0:40:09.239 --> 0:40:09.920
<v Speaker 2>of something.

0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:12.440
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, like Ashen Puddle, which we talked about on

0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:16.560
<v Speaker 3>Weird House Cinema by the German animator Alata Reininger.

0:40:17.040 --> 0:40:21.640
<v Speaker 2>Correct. Yeah, they were active during the same decade, and

0:40:22.400 --> 0:40:24.120
<v Speaker 2>it was a little uncertain. Based on some of the sources,

0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:26.520
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like there was some amount of inspiration going

0:40:26.520 --> 0:40:29.880
<v Speaker 2>back and forth between these two. So I think I

0:40:29.960 --> 0:40:33.319
<v Speaker 2>think maybe the Japanese animators were inspired by her work,

0:40:33.400 --> 0:40:36.600
<v Speaker 2>but could have gone both ways, as creative inspiration all

0:40:36.719 --> 0:40:37.319
<v Speaker 2>often does.

0:40:37.800 --> 0:40:43.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, ashen Puddle was silhouette animated adaptation of the Cinderella story,

0:40:43.160 --> 0:40:47.160
<v Speaker 3>which actually had some hilarious animations in it and the

0:40:47.280 --> 0:40:49.720
<v Speaker 3>art where like the sisters keep trying to cut parts

0:40:49.719 --> 0:40:51.440
<v Speaker 3>off of their feet to fit them in the shoe.

0:40:51.640 --> 0:40:56.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, recommend going back and listening to

0:40:56.080 --> 0:40:58.480
<v Speaker 2>that Weird House episode. We did a couple of silent

0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:01.520
<v Speaker 2>films and that was one of them. Call correctly, but

0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:03.800
<v Speaker 2>this film too, Crab Temple Omen. You can find this

0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:07.719
<v Speaker 2>online in various places of streaming. I don't know that

0:41:07.800 --> 0:41:14.560
<v Speaker 2>it's the title cards have actually been translated into English.

0:41:14.560 --> 0:41:16.480
<v Speaker 2>I think you have to find like a separate translation

0:41:16.560 --> 0:41:19.040
<v Speaker 2>for them. But this is not a story that depends

0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:20.959
<v Speaker 2>too much on that sort of thing. You can enjoy

0:41:21.000 --> 0:41:23.600
<v Speaker 2>it without being able to read Japanese or know the

0:41:23.640 --> 0:41:27.479
<v Speaker 2>translation of the text. But yeah, you have these great

0:41:27.480 --> 0:41:29.840
<v Speaker 2>scenes where a woman saves a crab and is later

0:41:29.920 --> 0:41:32.400
<v Speaker 2>saved from a snake by swarming crabs.

0:41:32.800 --> 0:41:34.160
<v Speaker 3>M beautiful.

0:41:34.760 --> 0:41:38.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So moving on to a few other tale types

0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:42.399
<v Speaker 2>that Sika points out in this book, I think they're

0:41:42.440 --> 0:41:46.160
<v Speaker 2>pretty amusing and they nicely demonstrate the sort of attributed

0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:49.719
<v Speaker 2>crab personality that we're often dealing with, and then they

0:41:49.760 --> 0:41:52.000
<v Speaker 2>also factor in some other examples. I'm going to bring

0:41:52.080 --> 0:41:55.879
<v Speaker 2>up Crab, Yo Kai and the like. So a couple

0:41:55.880 --> 0:41:58.360
<v Speaker 2>of stories here for you. First, I'm going to read

0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:01.759
<v Speaker 2>quotes from the text here. The first is going to

0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:05.640
<v Speaker 2>be the story of the Toad and the Crab. Bearing

0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:09.600
<v Speaker 2>in mind again, this is a tail type summary and

0:42:09.680 --> 0:42:12.720
<v Speaker 2>it is in translation, so if it feels a little choppy,

0:42:12.760 --> 0:42:15.720
<v Speaker 2>that's why. Okay, all right, So this is the first story.

0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:19.280
<v Speaker 2>Toad and Crab were friends. Once Toad does not listen

0:42:19.280 --> 0:42:22.400
<v Speaker 2>to Crab's advice, and in consequence, Toad is trodden on

0:42:22.480 --> 0:42:25.960
<v Speaker 2>by a horse, his tongue is pressed out or his

0:42:26.080 --> 0:42:30.360
<v Speaker 2>eyes stick out. Crab mocks Toad. Toad says that a

0:42:30.719 --> 0:42:33.200
<v Speaker 2>his tongue is out because he is pretending to eat mochi,

0:42:34.840 --> 0:42:40.600
<v Speaker 2>or his eyes stick out because he is staring. So okay,

0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:43.440
<v Speaker 2>I love what we're beginning to learn here about certainly

0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:46.040
<v Speaker 2>about Toad, but also about Crab. Crab is not going

0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:49.320
<v Speaker 2>to suffer foolishness and let it go unrecognized, and Toad

0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:53.640
<v Speaker 2>is going to lie his face off to save face,

0:42:53.800 --> 0:42:55.640
<v Speaker 2>even after being stepped on by a horse.

0:42:56.120 --> 0:42:58.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no, I wanted to look like this.

0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:02.280
<v Speaker 2>Yes, my tongue is out because I'm pretending to eat mochi.

0:43:02.320 --> 0:43:03.359
<v Speaker 2>I love that.

0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:06.160
<v Speaker 3>I'm sorry. This just connects to a book that we

0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:09.400
<v Speaker 3>read in our house for our daughter, the Frog and

0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:12.520
<v Speaker 3>Toad books. Oh yes, yes, Frog and Toad our friends.

0:43:13.200 --> 0:43:16.160
<v Speaker 3>But those are much sweeter than this. There's no face

0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:17.160
<v Speaker 3>mashing out in.

0:43:17.160 --> 0:43:20.360
<v Speaker 2>The All right, well there's here's another one. And this

0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:23.719
<v Speaker 2>one also concerns concerns mochi, not just pretend mochi, but

0:43:23.800 --> 0:43:28.080
<v Speaker 2>actual mochi. So this is the monkey and the crab

0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:32.080
<v Speaker 2>make mochi together. All right, So this is how it's

0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:35.160
<v Speaker 2>summarized in the text. Monkey and crab make mochi together.

0:43:36.440 --> 0:43:39.239
<v Speaker 2>Monkey climbs up a tree, taking all the mochi and

0:43:39.280 --> 0:43:42.360
<v Speaker 2>does not share it with crab. Crab says to Monkey

0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:44.759
<v Speaker 2>that mochi will taste better if he puts it on

0:43:44.800 --> 0:43:48.200
<v Speaker 2>a dead branch and shakes the branch. Monkey does so,

0:43:48.480 --> 0:43:52.040
<v Speaker 2>The branch breaks and mochi falls to the ground. Crab

0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:55.800
<v Speaker 2>carries it into his hole. Crab does not give mochi

0:43:55.880 --> 0:43:59.480
<v Speaker 2>to Monkey, who in return drops dung into the mouth

0:43:59.480 --> 0:44:02.839
<v Speaker 2>of crab hole. Wow, I'm to assume this means like,

0:44:03.320 --> 0:44:06.160
<v Speaker 2>the monkey goes up to the crab hole, positions butt

0:44:06.280 --> 0:44:11.200
<v Speaker 2>over the crab hole, and begins to defecate. But I

0:44:11.280 --> 0:44:13.440
<v Speaker 2>think you can all see where this is going. His

0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:17.799
<v Speaker 2>bottom is pinched by crab. Monkey gets himself released from

0:44:17.800 --> 0:44:21.200
<v Speaker 2>the pinch in exchange for giving his hair to crab.

0:44:21.920 --> 0:44:25.200
<v Speaker 2>For this reason, Monkey's face is red and crab has

0:44:25.239 --> 0:44:27.520
<v Speaker 2>hair on his legs. Wow.

0:44:27.680 --> 0:44:30.600
<v Speaker 3>So just so, I didn't expect it to become like

0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:34.239
<v Speaker 3>a natural ideological tale, but this is one of these

0:44:34.280 --> 0:44:37.960
<v Speaker 3>tales that explains how animals got their characteristics. Yeah.

0:44:38.160 --> 0:44:42.279
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. It also reminds basically an animal duel. That makes

0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:46.240
<v Speaker 2>me think of the wizarding duel from Disney's The Sword

0:44:46.280 --> 0:44:46.840
<v Speaker 2>in the Stone.

0:44:47.640 --> 0:44:49.480
<v Speaker 3>One of them turns into a crab at some point.

0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:51.919
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the wizard does. He turns into a crab. It's

0:44:51.920 --> 0:44:54.520
<v Speaker 2>like crab versus snake or worm, and then it's crab

0:44:54.600 --> 0:44:56.400
<v Speaker 2>versus rhinoceros and so forth.

0:44:57.040 --> 0:44:59.839
<v Speaker 3>So let's see, I'm trying to assess in the first tail,

0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:02.919
<v Speaker 3>the crab was the wise one. The crab had good

0:45:02.920 --> 0:45:06.000
<v Speaker 3>advice and was not heated by toad. In this case,

0:45:06.320 --> 0:45:08.600
<v Speaker 3>it seems kind of balanced, like they both are kind

0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:11.080
<v Speaker 3>of selfish and greedy, and they get revenge on each other.

0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:14.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but the crab is provoked. Yeah, crab does not

0:45:14.600 --> 0:45:19.600
<v Speaker 2>initiate this, this battle between the two and ultimately gets

0:45:19.640 --> 0:45:32.439
<v Speaker 2>the upper hand. Yeah, all right, and then there here's

0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:35.320
<v Speaker 2>another one that he mentions. This one I'm going to

0:45:35.400 --> 0:45:38.279
<v Speaker 2>be able to expand on more. Traveler stops at a

0:45:38.360 --> 0:45:41.879
<v Speaker 2>hut in the wood. A ghost appears and says, eight

0:45:41.920 --> 0:45:46.440
<v Speaker 2>little legs, two big legs, both eyes sparkling toward Heaven,

0:45:46.760 --> 0:45:51.759
<v Speaker 2>walks sideways. Traveler answers crab. Then the ghost disappears.

0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:56.480
<v Speaker 3>So it's a riddle. It's a riddle, but that doesn't

0:45:56.480 --> 0:45:58.560
<v Speaker 3>seem like a very hard riddle. That's like a very

0:45:58.560 --> 0:46:00.120
<v Speaker 3>straightforward description.

0:45:59.800 --> 0:46:03.239
<v Speaker 2>Of a Yeah, this one does make me wonder if

0:46:03.480 --> 0:46:06.280
<v Speaker 2>in the original Japanese this is a little more clever,

0:46:07.480 --> 0:46:09.600
<v Speaker 2>because I mean, but then again, we're in a podcast

0:46:09.880 --> 0:46:12.840
<v Speaker 2>talking all about crabs, and we know what the answer is.

0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:15.520
<v Speaker 3>Going to be, right exactly. Yeah, So I'm wondering if

0:46:16.080 --> 0:46:18.920
<v Speaker 3>there's something about the original framing that just wouldn't make

0:46:18.960 --> 0:46:20.799
<v Speaker 3>you think of sea animals.

0:46:21.239 --> 0:46:24.479
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I also love the idea that both eyes

0:46:24.520 --> 0:46:28.200
<v Speaker 2>are sparkling toward heaven. There's a divine aspect to the crab.

0:46:29.920 --> 0:46:32.880
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, so this is all very spooky anytime a

0:46:32.920 --> 0:46:35.239
<v Speaker 2>ghost as you a riddle, But it leads to the

0:46:35.280 --> 0:46:38.640
<v Speaker 2>next example. I want to discuss a crab spirit or

0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:43.360
<v Speaker 2>yokai known as Connie Bozu the Crab Priest, and I

0:46:43.400 --> 0:46:46.120
<v Speaker 2>was reading about this one. This one's not referenced in

0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:48.480
<v Speaker 2>one of the main yochai books that I often turned to,

0:46:48.680 --> 0:46:53.640
<v Speaker 2>but it is in Zach Davison's Ultimate Guides Japanese Yokai,

0:46:53.960 --> 0:46:57.560
<v Speaker 2>and it's also listed on Matthew Meyer's yokai dot com website.

0:46:58.120 --> 0:47:02.440
<v Speaker 2>It involves crabs and riddles and does seem directly connected

0:47:02.440 --> 0:47:05.600
<v Speaker 2>to the aforementioned tale type. So the creature here, I'm

0:47:05.600 --> 0:47:08.680
<v Speaker 2>going to and spoil what the yokai is. It is

0:47:09.120 --> 0:47:11.640
<v Speaker 2>a giant crab that takes on the disguise of a

0:47:11.719 --> 0:47:16.680
<v Speaker 2>wandering priest who apparently asks riddles of people he runs into,

0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:21.200
<v Speaker 2>or it runs into, and the main story seemingly becomes

0:47:21.280 --> 0:47:25.920
<v Speaker 2>popular is part of a Caujun comedic play. According to Meyer,

0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:29.240
<v Speaker 2>and then Davison references an eighteen eighty five written record.

0:47:29.600 --> 0:47:32.160
<v Speaker 2>It seems to be a recording of a story that

0:47:32.239 --> 0:47:35.040
<v Speaker 2>was told at some point after seventeen twenty six, given

0:47:35.400 --> 0:47:39.719
<v Speaker 2>a reference to a renamed mountain in the work. So

0:47:40.040 --> 0:47:43.960
<v Speaker 2>in the version that Meyer relates and Davison also essentially

0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:47.520
<v Speaker 2>relates the same story, so I think they're in agreeance

0:47:47.600 --> 0:47:50.360
<v Speaker 2>for the most part. Here you have a wandering priest

0:47:51.000 --> 0:47:54.319
<v Speaker 2>and he arrives at a temple that seems cursed to

0:47:54.440 --> 0:47:57.560
<v Speaker 2>lose a new head priest anytime one is assigned to it.

0:47:57.960 --> 0:48:00.759
<v Speaker 2>So there's a rural temple every time I'm a new

0:48:00.880 --> 0:48:03.160
<v Speaker 2>priest is sent out there to take care of it.

0:48:03.440 --> 0:48:06.759
<v Speaker 2>They disappear after a single night, and the local villagers

0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:09.200
<v Speaker 2>just assume the place is haunted. There's some sort of

0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:13.680
<v Speaker 2>vengeful ghost here killing every priest that shows up. The

0:48:13.719 --> 0:48:17.000
<v Speaker 2>wandering priest that has arrived in our story, however, doesn't

0:48:17.040 --> 0:48:19.719
<v Speaker 2>know anything about this. He's going door to door in

0:48:19.719 --> 0:48:21.440
<v Speaker 2>the village looking for a place to sleep, and the

0:48:21.520 --> 0:48:23.279
<v Speaker 2>villagers are like, hey, why don't you go check out

0:48:23.320 --> 0:48:28.719
<v Speaker 2>that ruined temple? Wow? Cold, Yeah, I mean I don't

0:48:28.719 --> 0:48:31.200
<v Speaker 2>know how we're supposed to I was supposed to take that,

0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:34.440
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, He's like, okay, sounds good to me. He

0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:37.920
<v Speaker 2>goes there, goes inside, falls asleep, and then when he

0:48:37.960 --> 0:48:42.680
<v Speaker 2>wakes up, there's a priest standing or squatting beside him,

0:48:42.760 --> 0:48:47.080
<v Speaker 2>kind of hovering over him, and this stranger priest asks

0:48:47.160 --> 0:48:50.400
<v Speaker 2>him that very crab riddle, what has eight small legs

0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:53.120
<v Speaker 2>two large legs, walk sideways and his eyes pointing straight

0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:57.640
<v Speaker 2>upwards towards heaven. And the wandering priest not only solves

0:48:57.640 --> 0:49:00.719
<v Speaker 2>the riddle, but in solving it, sees through the disguise

0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:03.400
<v Speaker 2>and he declared he either says you were a crab

0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:06.120
<v Speaker 2>or says the answer is crab, that's what you are,

0:49:06.280 --> 0:49:09.799
<v Speaker 2>something to that effect, and then he picks up his

0:49:09.840 --> 0:49:13.240
<v Speaker 2>priest's staff. He strikes the crab and this causes the

0:49:13.280 --> 0:49:16.760
<v Speaker 2>disguise to fall away from the monster crab the crab

0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:21.120
<v Speaker 2>since the gig is up, the monster crab scuttles sideways

0:49:21.719 --> 0:49:23.839
<v Speaker 2>out of the way. The priest throws his staff at

0:49:23.840 --> 0:49:26.840
<v Speaker 2>the monster and it cracks the creature's shell, but the

0:49:26.880 --> 0:49:30.360
<v Speaker 2>crab still escapes. The villagers show up shortly after this,

0:49:30.480 --> 0:49:34.200
<v Speaker 2>and they're like, hey, what's going on. We heard some ruckus.

0:49:34.760 --> 0:49:37.560
<v Speaker 2>We can see you're not dead. That's good, And the

0:49:37.560 --> 0:49:39.440
<v Speaker 2>priest says, all right, everybody, we're going to drain the

0:49:39.480 --> 0:49:43.120
<v Speaker 2>pond behind the temple. They do so, and they uncovered

0:49:43.200 --> 0:49:46.480
<v Speaker 2>the numerous skeletons of all the dead priests that had

0:49:46.480 --> 0:49:49.239
<v Speaker 2>been assigned to the ruined temple over the years, the

0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:52.040
<v Speaker 2>ones that had never survived a single night. And they

0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:55.640
<v Speaker 2>also find the body of a giant dead crab with

0:49:55.719 --> 0:49:57.399
<v Speaker 2>a cracked shell.

0:49:57.560 --> 0:50:01.160
<v Speaker 3>So the implication is all of the previous priests did

0:50:01.200 --> 0:50:05.560
<v Speaker 3>not answer the riddle correctly and were killed by the crab.

0:50:05.480 --> 0:50:08.400
<v Speaker 2>I assume, So yeah, yeah, And so the wandering priest

0:50:08.480 --> 0:50:11.359
<v Speaker 2>then becomes the new head priest. He gets to take

0:50:11.400 --> 0:50:13.880
<v Speaker 2>over this temple and nothing bad happens afterwards.

0:50:14.200 --> 0:50:15.839
<v Speaker 3>They all lived happily ever after.

0:50:16.320 --> 0:50:20.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. And the Davison version is very very similar, with

0:50:20.480 --> 0:50:22.760
<v Speaker 2>the key difference being that the hero's name is given

0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:25.600
<v Speaker 2>as Honan, and the crab priest asked the riddle of

0:50:25.640 --> 0:50:27.680
<v Speaker 2>every priest he encounters and beats them to death with

0:50:27.719 --> 0:50:32.640
<v Speaker 2>a staff if they can't answer. So yeah, it's it's

0:50:32.680 --> 0:50:34.880
<v Speaker 2>a fun little story and I think has some legitimate

0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:38.920
<v Speaker 2>creepiness to it. It made me wonder if, presumably it

0:50:38.920 --> 0:50:41.440
<v Speaker 2>has been reproduced on the stage in some of these

0:50:41.480 --> 0:50:44.799
<v Speaker 2>comedic plays, but it seems like this one would be

0:50:44.800 --> 0:50:48.479
<v Speaker 2>a great one for adaptation into animation or even live action.

0:50:48.880 --> 0:50:50.480
<v Speaker 3>I feel like you would have to spin it out

0:50:50.480 --> 0:50:52.400
<v Speaker 3>a little bit more. You'd need to show some earlier

0:50:52.520 --> 0:50:53.800
<v Speaker 3>encounters or something.

0:50:54.040 --> 0:50:56.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or you know, if it was an anthology format,

0:50:56.160 --> 0:50:58.279
<v Speaker 2>you might be able to get by its very quick

0:50:58.320 --> 0:51:02.040
<v Speaker 2>and an easy adup take of it. But anything to

0:51:02.080 --> 0:51:06.160
<v Speaker 2>get this monster crab on the screen, let's see. Davison

0:51:06.400 --> 0:51:10.400
<v Speaker 2>also alludes to other crab tales. He mentions this this

0:51:10.480 --> 0:51:14.320
<v Speaker 2>comedic play from the sixteenth century, that it also involves,

0:51:14.640 --> 0:51:16.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, a priest and acolyte in a crab, and

0:51:16.280 --> 0:51:19.680
<v Speaker 2>I think this would be the popularizing prey play that

0:51:19.880 --> 0:51:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Maya refers to. Davison also mentions that the travel guide

0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:30.560
<v Speaker 2>Hiram may Show junra Zua from eighteen oh four has

0:51:30.600 --> 0:51:34.000
<v Speaker 2>grant giant crabs in it the torment people, and he

0:51:34.080 --> 0:51:37.400
<v Speaker 2>also writes quote the great monk Kobo Dashi banished the

0:51:37.440 --> 0:51:41.040
<v Speaker 2>crab and the slope where it lived is called Kanakazaka,

0:51:41.120 --> 0:51:43.960
<v Speaker 2>a crab slope to this day. So there are some

0:51:44.040 --> 0:51:49.399
<v Speaker 2>other tales out there floating around of monks holy men

0:51:49.520 --> 0:51:51.360
<v Speaker 2>engaging in battles against the crab.

0:51:51.800 --> 0:51:54.640
<v Speaker 3>So if it's mentioned in a travel guide. The idea

0:51:54.719 --> 0:51:57.959
<v Speaker 3>is like that this was a local hazard in a place.

0:51:58.320 --> 0:52:00.440
<v Speaker 2>I guess so, or you know this is this place

0:52:00.480 --> 0:52:02.480
<v Speaker 2>is called such and such. This is good. You know

0:52:02.920 --> 0:52:05.160
<v Speaker 2>it's named after a crab because of this story.

0:52:05.200 --> 0:52:07.759
<v Speaker 3>That's sort of Yeah, was once a hazard, now is

0:52:07.840 --> 0:52:08.640
<v Speaker 3>just the namesake.

0:52:09.040 --> 0:52:15.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah now. Meyer also lists a creature called Connie one

0:52:15.400 --> 0:52:18.680
<v Speaker 2>or demon crab, and this one is featured in the

0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:23.800
<v Speaker 2>famous monster scroll Bakumono zukushi Imaki from the eighteenth and

0:52:23.880 --> 0:52:26.839
<v Speaker 2>nineteenth centuries. You can look up an image of this,

0:52:26.920 --> 0:52:28.520
<v Speaker 2>you might have to. I had to poke around a

0:52:28.520 --> 0:52:32.279
<v Speaker 2>little bit before I could find the picture from this

0:52:32.400 --> 0:52:35.839
<v Speaker 2>scroll all this demon crab, but I have it here

0:52:35.840 --> 0:52:36.440
<v Speaker 2>for you, Joe.

0:52:38.400 --> 0:52:40.239
<v Speaker 3>Googly eyes and human.

0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:45.400
<v Speaker 2>Teeth, yes, and they are stained black. Apparently this is

0:52:45.560 --> 0:52:50.920
<v Speaker 2>in reference to Oha guru, the aristocratic and sometimes samurai

0:52:50.960 --> 0:52:57.640
<v Speaker 2>practice of staining one's teeth black cee tooth staining traditions

0:52:57.640 --> 0:53:02.640
<v Speaker 2>in various cultures. But yeah, any else that has whiskers

0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:07.839
<v Speaker 2>the googly eyes very much an one's kind of demonic expression. Yeah,

0:53:08.560 --> 0:53:11.280
<v Speaker 2>so I loved this guy. This guy's got great demon

0:53:11.360 --> 0:53:17.440
<v Speaker 2>crab energy. And Meyer presents the possible connection to a

0:53:17.800 --> 0:53:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Kim ingani or demon mass crab. I think the the

0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:25.680
<v Speaker 2>species on this is is drippy Senika. I included some

0:53:25.760 --> 0:53:28.719
<v Speaker 2>images of this particular crab for you, Joe, and yeah,

0:53:28.800 --> 0:53:30.480
<v Speaker 2>I mean looks like a demon face. This is a

0:53:30.560 --> 0:53:33.480
<v Speaker 2>very very similar situation to the samurai crabs that we

0:53:33.480 --> 0:53:34.560
<v Speaker 2>were discussing earlier.

0:53:34.840 --> 0:53:36.560
<v Speaker 3>Coming back to I guess we got into this in

0:53:36.600 --> 0:53:39.839
<v Speaker 3>part two about the how easy it is to see

0:53:39.840 --> 0:53:45.000
<v Speaker 3>faces in the shells of crabs just for anatomical reasons

0:53:45.040 --> 0:53:48.080
<v Speaker 3>related to bilateral symmetry and our natural paradolia.

0:53:48.600 --> 0:53:51.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so there you have it. It's clearly the face

0:53:51.360 --> 0:53:53.560
<v Speaker 2>of an one on the back of this crab.

0:53:54.160 --> 0:53:57.560
<v Speaker 3>I guess the level of threat implied hinges on? Does

0:53:57.600 --> 0:53:59.920
<v Speaker 3>it ask a riddle? And how hard is the riddle?

0:54:00.440 --> 0:54:02.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know that this guy has a riddle.

0:54:02.440 --> 0:54:04.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. He looks he's up to some business,

0:54:04.280 --> 0:54:10.120
<v Speaker 2>but I don't think it's riddle related, but that he's

0:54:11.040 --> 0:54:12.800
<v Speaker 2>he's not to be trusted, that's to be sure.

0:54:13.120 --> 0:54:16.719
<v Speaker 3>I wonder if there is a demon crab behind this

0:54:17.400 --> 0:54:20.200
<v Speaker 3>new variety of I think actually this is often AI

0:54:20.400 --> 0:54:25.960
<v Speaker 3>behind this variety variety of posts on social media that

0:54:25.960 --> 0:54:28.640
<v Speaker 3>that offer a riddle that doesn't actually have an answer

0:54:28.680 --> 0:54:30.640
<v Speaker 3>and it's just rage engagement farming.

0:54:31.040 --> 0:54:32.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I haven't encountered this before.

0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:36.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think it's common on a lot of platforms.

0:54:36.360 --> 0:54:39.120
<v Speaker 3>You know, it will be kind of like a provocative

0:54:39.160 --> 0:54:41.600
<v Speaker 3>post of some kind that seems to be a puzzle,

0:54:41.719 --> 0:54:45.279
<v Speaker 3>Like it's an image that says, like, you know when

0:54:45.360 --> 0:54:48.360
<v Speaker 3>you see it, about this image, but there's actually there's nothing,

0:54:48.520 --> 0:54:50.799
<v Speaker 3>So it just gets people arguing in the comments in

0:54:50.920 --> 0:54:53.640
<v Speaker 3>order to farm engagement, or a riddle that has no

0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:56.239
<v Speaker 3>clear answer, just to get people arguing.

0:54:56.239 --> 0:54:59.080
<v Speaker 2>Like why is a raven like a writing desk? Maybe

0:54:59.080 --> 0:55:02.480
<v Speaker 2>that woe has an answer, but I it's my understand

0:55:02.520 --> 0:55:04.840
<v Speaker 2>I have long believed that one doesn't have an answer,

0:55:04.880 --> 0:55:06.200
<v Speaker 2>and it's kind of infuriating.

0:55:06.560 --> 0:55:07.840
<v Speaker 3>I don't know if I've heard of that one. What

0:55:07.840 --> 0:55:08.200
<v Speaker 3>does that mean?

0:55:08.600 --> 0:55:13.040
<v Speaker 2>It's a riddle that's asked in Peter Beegle's The Last

0:55:13.120 --> 0:55:19.520
<v Speaker 2>Unicorn and also in the adaptation. But yeah, it's my understanding.

0:55:19.560 --> 0:55:20.960
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't have an answer, but maybe it does have

0:55:20.960 --> 0:55:23.120
<v Speaker 2>an answer, and if listeners know it, they should write

0:55:23.120 --> 0:55:25.719
<v Speaker 2>in and let me know, and that'll that'll close a

0:55:25.840 --> 0:55:29.840
<v Speaker 2>chapter in my life right there. If I knew why

0:55:29.920 --> 0:55:31.399
<v Speaker 2>a raven is like writing desk.

0:55:32.360 --> 0:55:35.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that one's got me stumped to but but to

0:55:35.440 --> 0:55:38.520
<v Speaker 3>reiterate my point, yes, something does feel like there's a

0:55:38.640 --> 0:55:43.400
<v Speaker 3>very crab like mentality, something like in the decapod predatory behavior,

0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:46.840
<v Speaker 3>in the farming of engagement through riddles with no answers.

0:55:47.080 --> 0:55:50.000
<v Speaker 2>Hmmm, yeah, I could see something. I could see monster

0:55:50.040 --> 0:55:51.239
<v Speaker 2>crabs being very into that.

0:55:51.760 --> 0:55:54.000
<v Speaker 3>I think it's really just probably machines doing.

0:55:55.320 --> 0:56:01.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and again we come back to crab machine comparisons. Right, listeners,

0:56:01.320 --> 0:56:03.120
<v Speaker 2>I would love to hear from you if you have

0:56:03.239 --> 0:56:08.840
<v Speaker 2>your own favorite monster or demon crabs, either from folklore

0:56:08.840 --> 0:56:12.560
<v Speaker 2>and legend or from pop culture, certainly from you know,

0:56:12.560 --> 0:56:17.879
<v Speaker 2>any examples from anime, comic books, and b movies right

0:56:17.960 --> 0:56:20.200
<v Speaker 2>in We would love to hear from you. They don't

0:56:20.239 --> 0:56:22.920
<v Speaker 2>all necessarily bear mentioning in this podcast because a lot

0:56:22.920 --> 0:56:24.760
<v Speaker 2>of times it's just like what if a crab was big?

0:56:25.160 --> 0:56:28.520
<v Speaker 2>What would he do? And you know, it can be

0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:33.120
<v Speaker 2>endlessly amusing in the picture, but it's not necessarily not

0:56:33.160 --> 0:56:35.160
<v Speaker 2>necessarily much to talk about regarding it.

0:56:35.560 --> 0:56:38.919
<v Speaker 3>Did you realize that while we have discussed it in

0:56:39.040 --> 0:56:42.839
<v Speaker 3>depth on Core episodes before, we've never done a weird

0:56:42.880 --> 0:56:45.520
<v Speaker 3>House Cinema on Attack of the Crab monsteris Yeah.

0:56:45.560 --> 0:56:48.200
<v Speaker 2>I've thought about that, yeah, quite a bit. It's a

0:56:48.200 --> 0:56:51.200
<v Speaker 2>film we reference all the time, but we've never specifically

0:56:51.400 --> 0:56:53.320
<v Speaker 2>covered it, so we we should probably come back to

0:56:53.320 --> 0:56:55.120
<v Speaker 2>it at some point. It's kind of a foundational text

0:56:55.160 --> 0:56:56.080
<v Speaker 2>for us.

0:56:56.160 --> 0:56:58.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, certainly for me. It means a lot to me,

0:57:00.280 --> 0:57:03.279
<v Speaker 3>coming back to the idea of claw regeneration.

0:57:03.440 --> 0:57:03.600
<v Speaker 2>You know.

0:57:03.920 --> 0:57:06.800
<v Speaker 3>You might recall there's a part in the movie where

0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:10.840
<v Speaker 3>the humans are able to wound the giant psychic crab

0:57:10.920 --> 0:57:14.120
<v Speaker 3>with explosives. I think they blow off its arm, one

0:57:14.120 --> 0:57:17.000
<v Speaker 3>of its arms or claws or something, and it speaks

0:57:17.040 --> 0:57:19.680
<v Speaker 3>to them. It says, so you have wounded me, I

0:57:19.720 --> 0:57:22.360
<v Speaker 3>can grow a new one, But will you grow new

0:57:22.520 --> 0:57:24.640
<v Speaker 3>lives when I have taken yours from you?

0:57:25.880 --> 0:57:28.800
<v Speaker 2>That makes you think that's some good crab arrogance right there.

0:57:29.920 --> 0:57:32.560
<v Speaker 2>All right, we're gonna go ahead and close the crab

0:57:32.600 --> 0:57:36.240
<v Speaker 2>bag at least for now. But there are so many

0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:39.120
<v Speaker 2>crabs out there we did not cover them all, and

0:57:39.160 --> 0:57:41.240
<v Speaker 2>they may swarm for us in the night and ask

0:57:41.320 --> 0:57:44.360
<v Speaker 2>us riddles. So we may well come back in the

0:57:44.360 --> 0:57:47.640
<v Speaker 2>future and discuss more crab matters, But for now, we're

0:57:47.640 --> 0:57:50.480
<v Speaker 2>going to call it an episode again, write in. We

0:57:50.480 --> 0:57:53.080
<v Speaker 2>would love to hear from everyone out there. Just a

0:57:53.120 --> 0:57:55.760
<v Speaker 2>reminder first of all, yes, Stuff to Blow Your Mind

0:57:55.800 --> 0:57:58.280
<v Speaker 2>has been around as a podcast for quite a while,

0:57:58.800 --> 0:58:01.080
<v Speaker 2>and if you would like to dig into the audio

0:58:01.200 --> 0:58:03.000
<v Speaker 2>archives of the show, you can find us wherever you

0:58:03.080 --> 0:58:05.720
<v Speaker 2>get your audio podcasts. It goes back years and years.

0:58:06.840 --> 0:58:09.720
<v Speaker 2>Let's see. We'll remind you that we're primarily a science

0:58:09.720 --> 0:58:12.280
<v Speaker 2>and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursday,

0:58:12.320 --> 0:58:14.680
<v Speaker 2>short form episodes on Wednesdays and on Fridays. We set

0:58:14.720 --> 0:58:17.080
<v Speaker 2>aside most serious concerns to just talk about a weird

0:58:17.080 --> 0:58:20.040
<v Speaker 2>film on Weird House Cinema. Those sometimes those selections do

0:58:20.200 --> 0:58:22.640
<v Speaker 2>factor in to our discussions on core episodes.

0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:26.720
<v Speaker 3>Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

0:58:27.120 --> 0:58:29.000
<v Speaker 3>If you would like to get in touch with us

0:58:29.000 --> 0:58:31.520
<v Speaker 3>with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

0:58:31.520 --> 0:58:33.520
<v Speaker 3>a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

0:58:33.680 --> 0:58:36.240
<v Speaker 3>you can email us at contact a, Stuff to Blow

0:58:36.240 --> 0:58:43.840
<v Speaker 3>your Mind dot com.

0:58:43.960 --> 0:58:46.880
<v Speaker 1>Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

0:58:46.960 --> 0:58:49.760
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