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Speaker 1: Pushkin. It's no secret that Nordic countries have very high

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Speaker 1: levels of well being. Ever since the World Happiness Report

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Speaker 1: launched their famous country happiness rankings back in twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: Scandinavian countries have consistently dominated the competition. In fact, Finland

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Speaker 1: and Denmark have claimed the top spots for an impressive

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Speaker 1: seven years running. The US and UK, by contrast, they

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Speaker 1: haven't even broken into the top ten. So what's behind

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Speaker 1: this Nordic happiness advantage. Journalist Helen Russell believes it starts

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Speaker 1: in childhood.

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Speaker 2: It's not an accident that people from the Nordic countries

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Speaker 2: have voted the happiest in the world year after year.

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Speaker 1: This is how they are raised. If you're a fan

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Speaker 1: of The Happiness Lab, you might remember Helen from a

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Speaker 1: previous episode entitled Move to Your Happy Place. I asked

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Speaker 1: Helen to return for this special series on parenting because

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Speaker 1: she is travel a rather circuitous path towards a happier

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Speaker 1: family life.

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Speaker 2: So I am London born and bred and my husband

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Speaker 2: got a job at Lego in Denmark and we had

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Speaker 2: no intention of ever leaving London, but Denmark kept being

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Speaker 2: voted the happiest country in the world, and I kind

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Speaker 2: of wondered, what was it all about? Could it be

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Speaker 2: that beer, bacon, Danish pastries really made you that happy?

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Speaker 2: So I decided I would give it a year, investigating

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Speaker 2: the Danish happiness phenomenon firsthand, looking at different areas of

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Speaker 2: Danish living to see if any of them made me happier,

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Speaker 2: and spoiler alert, it sort of did. And I ended

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Speaker 2: up staying not one year, but nearly twelve in the end,

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Speaker 2: and parenting a very loud mini redhead and surprise twins.

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Speaker 2: So life changed in ways I didn't expect at all,

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Speaker 2: But I did learn that Viking children grow up happier

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Speaker 2: and healthier and more independent. We bought a home, our

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Speaker 2: first home together, in the Danish countryside, in a very

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Speaker 2: Danish neighborhood, so yeah, really getting under the skin of

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Speaker 2: being part of the groups and clubs and associations, and

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Speaker 2: sending our kids into Danish childcare, really understanding what it

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Speaker 2: means to live danishly, and then really looking throughout the

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Speaker 2: other Nordic countries of the things that they do that

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Speaker 2: are very similar and very different to how I think

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Speaker 2: we do it in the.

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Speaker 1: Rest of the world. Helen's now the author of the

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Speaker 1: Deaner's Secret to Happy Kids, how the Viking way of

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Speaker 1: raising children makes them happier, healthier, and more independent. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to chat with Helen about why Nordic parenting is

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Speaker 1: so much less stressful than parenting in the US. One

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Speaker 1: of the big things you talk about is being really different.

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Speaker 1: Concerns this idea of trust in Denmark, which seems different

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Speaker 1: in the US and the UK. You talked in your

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Speaker 1: book about this idea of tillid. What does that word

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Speaker 1: mean and why is it so important in Denmark? So

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Speaker 1: this is this magical word. It's a mixture of trust

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Speaker 1: and faith, and really the whole of Danish society is

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Speaker 1: built around this. You have to have trust in the

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Speaker 1: people around you that they will also behave well and

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Speaker 1: that everyone will contribute their fair share, and then you

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Speaker 1: have to kind of have a bit of faith that

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Speaker 1: it will all turn out okay. So things like this

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Speaker 1: famous idea of Danes leaving their babies to nap outside

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Speaker 1: in their prams during the day while they pop into

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Speaker 1: a cafe for lunch or go for a coffee or

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Speaker 1: go for a swimming And I've seen once and there

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Speaker 1: is this trust that no harm will come to them.

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Speaker 1: There's a faith that the whole community will rally round

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Speaker 1: so that whoever the adult is in a certain situation

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Speaker 1: will have eyes on the children in their sphere around them.

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Speaker 1: And as a parent, where you can feel so alone

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Speaker 1: and so isolated and so terrified, frankly, a lot of

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Speaker 1: the time, that really helped, because you sort of have

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Speaker 1: the headspace to be happy and relaxed if you have

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Speaker 1: this trust and faith that it's kind of going to

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Speaker 1: be okay and that most people are not out to

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Speaker 1: get you, that people have got your back. And that

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Speaker 1: kind of trust seems to extend to how parents think

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Speaker 1: about kids and what they're capable of. How is this

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Speaker 1: different in terms of how Danish parents trust kids than

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing you've see in the US and

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Speaker 1: the UK.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think when I first started looking around Danish daycare,

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Speaker 2: so they start around ten months in something called bugustu

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Speaker 2: or nursery room, and the children from around the age

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Speaker 2: of two are expected to dress themselves to go outside.

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Speaker 2: They can climb trees, they can do all this stuff.

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Speaker 2: They're trusted to have autonomy over their body, and then

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Speaker 2: from around the age of three they'll often be maybe

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Speaker 2: candles lip candles in the window sills of the bernerhun

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Speaker 2: or the children's gardens, and again the children are trusted

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Speaker 2: to do it. They're trusted to use knives to chop

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Speaker 2: up the fruit. My children all attended something terrifying institution

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Speaker 2: known as Family Scouts from around age two, where they

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Speaker 2: taught kids how to whittle would so I had two

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Speaker 2: year old twins either side of me, each being given

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Speaker 2: a knife.

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Speaker 1: It was terrifying. It feels like the Danish Health and

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Speaker 1: Safety should like jump in and make you not do this,

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Speaker 1: But now.

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Speaker 2: There is no Danish health and safety. It does not

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Speaker 2: exist for Viking. We have this now family catchphrase if

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Speaker 2: you can have a saw once you're four, that I

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Speaker 2: had to say to my two year olds because their

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Speaker 2: big brother was five had his own saw. But there

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Speaker 2: is this trust that if you let children have that freedom,

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Speaker 2: and of course there's a healthcare service, so it's not

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Speaker 2: like a broken arm as medical bankruptcy, but it's a

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Speaker 2: sense that if they fall and they break an arm,

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Speaker 2: nor one wants that, but if it happens, it's not

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Speaker 2: the end of the world, and it's much better for

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Speaker 2: them to learn. So they are given this great freedom

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Speaker 2: and Yeah, this great trust is placed in them to

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Speaker 2: be responsible for their own bodies, to do the right

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Speaker 2: thing and to learn by doing I.

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Speaker 1: Guess, and in Denmark trust is sort of heralded and

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Speaker 1: everyone's into it. But the idea that's poop pood is

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Speaker 1: this concept of curling, which seems to be something that

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Speaker 1: parents in the US and the UK are really into.

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Speaker 1: So what's curling?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so named after I think this is the Scottish

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Speaker 2: sport where you're kind of going ahead with brooms trying

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Speaker 2: to make space and the ideas that you're clearing out

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Speaker 2: any obstacles away from your children, also known as helicopter parenting.

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Speaker 2: But there's not so much of it, I would say

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Speaker 2: in the Nordic countries. In Denmark, my Danish parent friends

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Speaker 2: were the best teachers. They are explaining how to do

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Speaker 2: things on a day by day basis when I am clueless.

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Speaker 2: I am always the idiot in these situations. So every

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Speaker 2: day was a school day. But they would explain to

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Speaker 2: me things like, instead of intervening in doing things for

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Speaker 2: your kids, you set it up so that they can

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Speaker 2: do it for themselves. So for example, you make sure

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Speaker 2: all the hooks where their coats or their backpacks for

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Speaker 2: school are or an area that they can reach them,

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Speaker 2: a place where they can put them away. All of

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Speaker 2: that is accessible to them, and so you're not doing

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Speaker 2: it for them, but thinking what are the obstacles to

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Speaker 2: the child doing what I want them to do? Quite

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Speaker 2: child led.

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Speaker 1: I'd say. You've also talked about how Danish parenting is

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Speaker 1: more focused on the process than the product. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean there?

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Speaker 2: I guess in all of Danish society, for example, and

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Speaker 2: there's this great idea that everyone is equal and that

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Speaker 2: no one is to think they're special, and everyone is

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Speaker 2: worthy of respect just because and this extends to children.

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Speaker 2: So this idea that it doesn't necessarily matter if you

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Speaker 2: become the CEO of a company. It matters if you're

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Speaker 2: a good person. It matters if you have good friends,

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Speaker 2: if you have maybe great hobbies, if you have a

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Speaker 2: full and rich life, not rich in the financial sense.

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Speaker 2: I spoke to parents who weren't that fussed about how

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Speaker 2: their kids did grades wise at school, which is lucky

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Speaker 2: because there's not that much pressure on that. That's not

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Speaker 2: much book learning very early on, but it's more about

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Speaker 2: will they be happy and first, as a sort of

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Speaker 2: cynical brit I thought, well, maybe this is a massive

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Speaker 2: nation of slackers, but no, you see the statistics. Denmark

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Speaker 2: punches above. It's in terms of businesses, in terms of

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Speaker 2: creative endeavors, and kids do quite well by the age

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Speaker 2: of fifteen. It's above of the OECD average in terms

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Speaker 2: of maths, reading science. So they're doing well, but they

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Speaker 2: are happier in the process. I think that's the big thing.

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Speaker 2: So for a Danish parent, it would be no good

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Speaker 2: if your child was top of the class but miserable.

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Speaker 2: And actually I spoke to some parents in Finland. He

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Speaker 2: said they sort of told their children to study a

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Speaker 2: bit less because they wanted them to just do a

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Speaker 2: few more extracurricular activities. It doesn't matter about being top

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Speaker 2: of the class. It matters about being happy and balanced

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Speaker 2: and fulfilled, which is a very different approach, I guess,

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Speaker 2: to the one that many of us will grow up with.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, it's such a different approach than the Yale

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Speaker 1: students that I work with, you know, And it sounds

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Speaker 1: like one of the best ways to get there is

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Speaker 1: to sort of not intervene, even in these domains where

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Speaker 1: you think intervention is the best approach, and one of

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Speaker 1: the ones that you talked about in your book, which

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Speaker 1: I think you had a hard time with yourself, was

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Speaker 1: not intervening when kids are fighting. Explain why that was

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Speaker 1: so tricky for you and what you learned from Danish parents.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it starts really early on. So in this ugustoo,

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Speaker 2: in this nursery room, the pedagogues, the early years educators

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Speaker 2: have a policy of sitting on their hands.

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Speaker 1: They would tell me.

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Speaker 2: I thought they meant this sort of metaphorically, but no,

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Speaker 2: they mean literally that if little Anton is starting a

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Speaker 2: fight with little Spen, then you sit on your hands,

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Speaker 2: so you're not intervening. You see if they can get

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Speaker 2: themselves to the peace table by themselves. You know, I

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Speaker 2: grew up an only child and went to an all girls' school.

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Speaker 2: There was no rough and tumble, none of that sort

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Speaker 2: of physical contact. I never had that at all until

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Speaker 2: I became a parent. And then parenting toddlers is fifty

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Speaker 2: percent running, fifty percent WW and you wrestling.

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Speaker 1: So I've got all that then.

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Speaker 2: But actually play fighting itccurs throughout the animal kingdom. So

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Speaker 2: they've seen studies in rats that those deprived of the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to play fight will end up not being able

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Speaker 2: to read social cues properly. In later life they become

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Speaker 2: a bit lary. They don't know when it's appropriate to

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Speaker 2: escalate to aggression and when it isn't. So the approach

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Speaker 2: for a lot of the Danish parents and experts I

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Speaker 2: spoke to you was that it's better to let children

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Speaker 2: find that physicality to grapple it out. Only intervene if

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Speaker 2: you really have to. I with seriously talking cut lips

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Speaker 2: and to see if they can get themselves to the

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Speaker 2: peace table. And it was even my children's teachers telling

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Speaker 2: me this, which is quite shocking as a parent and

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Speaker 2: you're considering sending your child to this school and then

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Speaker 2: the teacher is telling you that, well, they might have

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Speaker 2: some bumps and bruises. I do see the point there,

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Speaker 2: but I still find it quite hard.

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Speaker 1: One.

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Speaker 2: No one wants to watch their kid getting hurt.

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Speaker 1: Talk about the Danish parents' relationship to allowing their kids

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Speaker 1: to be outside.

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Speaker 2: I mean the relationship is put them outside all time

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Speaker 2: from a really early age. So the sleeping outside in

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Speaker 2: your prams, for example, it can be up until it

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Speaker 2: used to be minus fourteen, and now it's minus four

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Speaker 2: Since what I did all my kids they've made it

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Speaker 2: a little bit less freezing.

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Speaker 1: But are you put your kids outside in negative for

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Speaker 1: degree weather.

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Speaker 2: To sleep during the day?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Wow, let me just check the temperature and yeah, so

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Speaker 2: it's a I'm going celsius to fahrenheit. Yeah, so it

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Speaker 2: used to be the advice was minus twenty degree celsius

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Speaker 2: or minus four and now the advice is minus ten celsius.

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Speaker 2: So that's fourteen degrees fahrenheit.

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Speaker 1: I mean either way, like, that's cold, that's cold.

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Speaker 2: Well, they're really used to. You get the gear, I

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Speaker 2: mean it's an investment, but you get your child's a

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Speaker 2: snowsuit and a balaklava. They call it an elephant hat,

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Speaker 2: don't No one knows why, and mittens and layers and

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Speaker 2: wool and you're getting this for your kid from the

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Speaker 2: age of around six months onwards. But there is an

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Speaker 2: understanding that as a parent, part of what you do

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Speaker 2: is you equip your child with the necessary clothes to

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Speaker 2: survive outside all year round. And so there's no question

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Speaker 2: that you don't go outside when it's raining. You go

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Speaker 2: outside every day. Otherwise you would never go outside at

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Speaker 2: all if you waited for a sunny day. So there's

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Speaker 2: no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes,

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Speaker 2: and all their peers do it as well, so it's

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Speaker 2: normalized in a way that's very helpful. As a parent,

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Speaker 2: you do it because that's what you do here.

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Speaker 1: And what are some of the benefits of kind of

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Speaker 1: getting outside so often even in the yucky weather.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there's so many studies about how helpful

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Speaker 2: it is for us psychologically, better for our mind, better

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Speaker 2: for our bodies to get outside in nature. There was

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Speaker 2: an amazing studies saying that the average British child spends

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Speaker 2: less time outside than prisoners, and that's madness. So the

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Speaker 2: idea of shoving children outside in all weather is really good.

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Speaker 2: And the Viking approach is that that's what they had

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Speaker 2: to do historically to survive, and so you keep doing it.

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Speaker 2: In Sweden they even have sometimes classes about how to

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Speaker 2: dig yourself out if you get into an ice hole.

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Speaker 2: Toddlers in Norway will learn how to use a match

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Speaker 2: and use a compass and read maps. These real sort

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Speaker 2: of boy scout skills that they're learning really early, makes

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Speaker 2: them feel more resilient, makes them feel quite strong. My

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Speaker 2: kids certainly felt quite proud when they had been out

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Speaker 2: all day in the snow, and they had mastered how

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Speaker 2: to whittle sticks. They feel this sense of mastery over

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Speaker 2: their body. It makes them feel more confident and they

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Speaker 2: seem to thrive on it.

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Speaker 1: As you talk more about kind of danger and whittling

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Speaker 1: and all this stuff, I can assume that there might

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Speaker 1: be some parents who are thinking, Oh, my gosh, are

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Speaker 1: you just saying I should just like throw my kid

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Speaker 1: into the woods with a knife and sort of see

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Speaker 1: what happens. How would you respond to a critique like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, don't do that. It's age appropriate risk in a

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Speaker 2: sort of environment where you know that it's safe and

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Speaker 2: supported and parents know, we know what is best for

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Speaker 2: our child. Caregiverers understand what the limits of that child is.

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Speaker 2: So it's just baby steps to see what that child

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Speaker 2: is ready for. I grew up with that sense of

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Speaker 2: wanting to wrap my children in cottonwooll at all times.

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Speaker 2: And I lost my sister when I was younger, so

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Speaker 2: this idea of protecting a child. I had a lot

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Speaker 2: of fertility treatment, took me a long time to become

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Speaker 2: a parent, and when I finally had children, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: didn't want any harm to come to them at all,

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Speaker 2: But actually play researchers have looked at the link between

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Speaker 2: being able to have this kind of risky play and

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Speaker 2: resilience and the short term it can lead to injury.

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Speaker 2: Within the long term it's going to help them. Children

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Speaker 2: are natural risk seekers, that they have curiosity, and one

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Speaker 2: psychologist told me that she saw in her experience that

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Speaker 2: it was the children who didn't climb trees that had

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Speaker 2: the fear of hypes. It's not the one who climb

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Speaker 2: trees and fell. Also, she saw a lot in her

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Speaker 2: practice that it was the children maybe who who denied

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Speaker 2: these opportunities for age appropriate, relatively safe risky play in

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Speaker 2: childhood will end up seeking out those thrills. There's risks

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Speaker 2: in maybe adolescence at a time when it's much more precarious,

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Speaker 2: the stakes are far higher. So I ended up sort

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Speaker 2: of reasoning it was hard, it took me a while,

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Speaker 2: but that it was better for to let my children

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Speaker 2: run a bit wild and climb the trees and whittle

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Speaker 2: at this age than to have them go off riding

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Speaker 2: a car in an unsafe way in their teenage years.

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Speaker 2: That it was better for them to get their thrills

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Speaker 2: this way.

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Speaker 1: But the idea is that probably those thrills and that

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Speaker 1: risk taking is also normative for teenagers too. So any

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Speaker 1: advice for parents with older kids who are maybe trying

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Speaker 1: to embrace this idea In the book you mentioned this idea?

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Speaker 1: Is it bool?

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Speaker 2: A friend of mine who's also a Scout leader ended

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Speaker 2: up saying this, my pronunciation is also terrible, but ball

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Speaker 2: this idea of trouble or problems, like you seek out

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Speaker 2: trouble not so much, but just a bit. There is

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Speaker 2: a sense that you fail as caregivers if you don't

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Speaker 2: deny your children opportunities for risky play, and many parents

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Speaker 2: would suddenly instead just doing maybe a risk assessment of

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Speaker 2: a future scenario, they do a risk benefit assessment and think, well,

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Speaker 2: hang on, here's what they could learn. It's a bit

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Speaker 2: like that, what if I fall, but what if I fly?

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Speaker 2: What are the things that they could learn from this experience?

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Speaker 2: How is it expansive? So trying to bear that in mind,

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Speaker 2: but it's not easy. And certainly if you parent this

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Speaker 2: way from the beginning, you have a bit of an

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Speaker 2: advantage because actually teenagers don't have that much to rebel

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Speaker 2: against in Denmark because they've had a pretty free life

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Speaker 2: until then. Egalitarian society no hierarchy, so there's not much

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Speaker 2: to kick back against, to push against. Danish teenagers tend

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Speaker 2: to get along better with their parents than teenagers. Typically

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Speaker 2: the cliches go elsewhere, But I think there is still

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Speaker 2: some opportunity. I would hope, and I'm not there yet

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Speaker 2: with my own kids, but to give them that freedom,

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Speaker 2: and as you say, it's that natural thing to want

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Speaker 2: to separate yourself from your parents and see if they

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Speaker 2: feel that they have that autonomy to be able to

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Speaker 2: take that next step.

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Speaker 1: So do sum up what we've worn so far. Beer

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Speaker 1: bacon and Danish pastries may be delicious, but there's more

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Speaker 1: to the American Danish well being gap than access to

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Speaker 1: Nordic fresh means. If we want children to become happier, healthier,

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Speaker 1: and more independent, we need to build a society based

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Speaker 1: on trust, one in which people take a more relaxed

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Speaker 1: approach to low stakes risks when the happiness labor turns.

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Speaker 1: From the break, we'll take into a few other things

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Speaker 1: we can learn from modern day vikings. We'll see why

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Speaker 1: playtime matters both for kids and adults, and why Danish

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Speaker 1: parents don't hang children's artwork on their refrigerators. The Happiness

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Speaker 1: Lab will be right back. If you're a fan of

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Speaker 1: the show. You and I often talk about the painful

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Speaker 1: phenomenon of time famine, that sense of overwhelm we feel

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Speaker 1: when our days are filled to the brim with obligations,

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Speaker 1: leaving little room to relax or even breathe. But studies

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Speaker 1: show that these days it's not just adults who suffer

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Speaker 1: from time famine. Our kids also have packed schedules filled

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Speaker 1: with school obligations, homework, structured activities, lessons, sports, dates, and

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Speaker 1: on and on. Most parents want what's best for their

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Speaker 1: life children, but are super packed schedules the right approach.

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Speaker 1: Danish parenting expert Helen Russell thinks parents and kids might

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Speaker 1: be missing out on something even more important. Time for

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Speaker 1: a play.

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Speaker 2: Play is so big in the Nordic countries that they

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Speaker 2: named it twice. It's the New York of the Nordics.

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Speaker 2: So there's a verb form of play which is liar

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Speaker 2: with sort of unstructured, intrinsically motivated play. And then there's

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Speaker 2: also spiela in Danish for when you're playing maybe sports

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Speaker 2: or a board game or music. And it's really important

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Speaker 2: for Danish parents that to have all of these types

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Speaker 2: of play covered, and there's a sense that if you're

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Speaker 2: not playing, then something's wrong, and that if children aren't

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Speaker 2: allowed to play, then there's almost a deficit that builds up,

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Speaker 2: and that they need to be able to just get

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Speaker 2: out there and express themselves in that way, and they

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Speaker 2: believe that it helps with collaboration and teamwork and communication,

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Speaker 2: and play is kind of all Nordic children do. It's

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Speaker 2: all Vikings do until they turn six when they start

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Speaker 2: school in Denmark. They start till their seven in Finland,

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Speaker 2: so it's everything. There is a sense that that's how

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Speaker 2: you learn, and these are the skills that you developed first,

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with book learning until much much later.

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Speaker 2: And actually I spoke to researchers at Cambridge who were

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Speaker 2: saying that children who learn via play rather than via

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Speaker 2: the old school book method tend to be happier and

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Speaker 2: more calm and better at collaborating too. So there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of play research out there. I think as a parent.

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Speaker 2: I tried to read it all, found it all quite

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Speaker 2: hard going, but I kind of broke it down to

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Speaker 2: this four approaches to play that are things that I

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Speaker 2: think about in terms of like decorating a cake. So

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Speaker 2: there's the getting the decorations of the cake, so getting

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Speaker 2: it out and saying do what you like. They're sort

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Speaker 2: of guided, so saying well can you make your cake

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Speaker 2: look like an otter whatever? Or the gamification so who

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Speaker 2: can do it the fastest. And then there's this step

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Speaker 2: by step instruction of sitting down with them best attempted

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Speaker 2: after a really good night to sleep. But by Danish

396
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Speaker 2: parent friends were making time to do all of these

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Speaker 2: in a way that I found quite overwhelming and stressful,

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Speaker 2: almost as a parent, because I'm not used to that.

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Speaker 2: My own experience of childhood was very much get on

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Speaker 2: with the books, get on early, and this idea that

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Speaker 2: we should all just be having fun and playing was

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Speaker 2: quite alien. And even in the Nordic country's parents still

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Speaker 2: feel quite time stretched. Eighty percent of mothers work, both

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Speaker 2: parents tend to be working. But play is so important

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Speaker 2: that people are prioritizing it. They are putting aside time

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Speaker 2: and they're thinking, I'm going to be doing this playing,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, all the research there is seem to say

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Speaker 2: that's a really good thing, and that children playing with

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Speaker 2: their parents as well as their peers is very good

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Speaker 2: for bonding. So I found that quite hard, but it's

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Speaker 2: something that I try to do.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things that comes up in

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Speaker 1: the US and the UK is that, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not like parents are down on play. It's just like

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Speaker 1: there's this different pressure that takes precedence, which is this

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Speaker 1: pressure to succeed, especially academically. What's the kind of right

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Speaker 1: way to balance that if you're thinking about happiness from

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Speaker 1: a Danish perspective.

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Speaker 2: So Danish parent, friends and caregivers and the teachers would

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Speaker 2: say that the play will give them a lot of

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Speaker 2: what they need, which I think that's the shift from

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Speaker 2: the approach maybe in the US and the UK certainly,

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Speaker 2: so that that way they'll be happier and that actually

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Speaker 2: you can make a lot of things into play. What

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Speaker 2: the Nordic countries have is the idea that the goal

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Speaker 2: sort of is happiness and a good life, and not

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Speaker 2: happiness in that sort of jazz hands Richts grinway, but

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Speaker 2: a deep contentment and a really balanced life where you

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Speaker 2: have time for family, time for friends, time for your

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Speaker 2: hobbies and a job. So the academic part that would,

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Speaker 2: I guess later become the job part. The career success.

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Speaker 2: That's only a small slice of the pie in the Nordics,

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Speaker 2: that's not everything. So by that metric, it means that

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Speaker 2: it's never going to be as much pressure, and that

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Speaker 2: filters out of children because they see their parents. I mean,

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Speaker 2: of course they're still workplace stress for parents and even

437
00:19:48,836 --> 00:19:51,956
Speaker 2: high levels of antipressant use in Denmark, but that's because

438
00:19:51,996 --> 00:19:53,756
Speaker 2: there is this sense that you're supposed to enjoy life,

439
00:19:53,756 --> 00:19:55,156
Speaker 2: you're supposed to be having a nice time, and if

440
00:19:55,156 --> 00:19:57,236
Speaker 2: you're not, you do something about it. So I think

441
00:19:57,276 --> 00:20:00,316
Speaker 2: for children, they will go to clubs and activities, they

442
00:20:00,356 --> 00:20:03,116
Speaker 2: will do sports, they will do hobbies and things, and

443
00:20:03,156 --> 00:20:06,036
Speaker 2: there's a big volunteer culture, so that these clubs and

444
00:20:06,036 --> 00:20:09,316
Speaker 2: associations that kids go to tend to be run by parents.

445
00:20:09,116 --> 00:20:11,916
Speaker 2: It's for free giving up their time, and a parent

446
00:20:11,996 --> 00:20:13,836
Speaker 2: will typically think, if I want my kid to be

447
00:20:13,876 --> 00:20:16,076
Speaker 2: able to go to this club, I will have to volunteer.

448
00:20:16,196 --> 00:20:18,956
Speaker 2: So throughout my friends, for example, one dad was a

449
00:20:18,956 --> 00:20:22,316
Speaker 2: basketball coach, one taught football, one was a swimming teacher.

450
00:20:22,756 --> 00:20:25,796
Speaker 2: So again children then see their parents modeling that behavior

451
00:20:25,836 --> 00:20:26,876
Speaker 2: and think, oh, that's what you do.

452
00:20:26,956 --> 00:20:27,196
Speaker 1: I guess.

453
00:20:27,236 --> 00:20:28,676
Speaker 2: I guess one part of the pie is you have

454
00:20:28,716 --> 00:20:30,236
Speaker 2: a job and then you have your family, and then

455
00:20:30,276 --> 00:20:32,556
Speaker 2: you do something for the community, and it's just a

456
00:20:32,636 --> 00:20:35,996
Speaker 2: much more balanced life than I think the culture that

457
00:20:36,036 --> 00:20:37,516
Speaker 2: many of us will have grown up.

458
00:20:37,436 --> 00:20:39,796
Speaker 1: In, which is really important because it suggests parents are

459
00:20:39,796 --> 00:20:43,236
Speaker 1: doing something different too. They are also prioritizing their own fun,

460
00:20:43,556 --> 00:20:45,996
Speaker 1: which is something I think definitely in the US, a

461
00:20:45,996 --> 00:20:48,036
Speaker 1: lot of parents say they're really struggling.

462
00:20:47,636 --> 00:20:49,836
Speaker 2: When there's a bit of putting your own oxygen mask

463
00:20:49,956 --> 00:20:52,036
Speaker 2: on first, I think in the Nordic countries because again,

464
00:20:52,076 --> 00:20:55,036
Speaker 2: at this egalitarian society, there's no but being a martyr,

465
00:20:55,236 --> 00:20:57,436
Speaker 2: and I grew up Irish Catholics, so I'm on that bit.

466
00:20:57,476 --> 00:20:59,396
Speaker 2: But that's not going to make you happy, it's not

467
00:20:59,436 --> 00:21:02,316
Speaker 2: going to help your child. So of course it's a

468
00:21:02,396 --> 00:21:04,476
Speaker 2: luxury and a privilege to be able to have free

469
00:21:04,476 --> 00:21:07,396
Speaker 2: time and to have any time outside of the work

470
00:21:07,436 --> 00:21:09,836
Speaker 2: that pays the bills. But if you are fortunate enough

471
00:21:09,836 --> 00:21:13,356
Speaker 2: to have that, then there's no point busting. The tax

472
00:21:13,396 --> 00:21:16,956
Speaker 2: situation in the Nordic countries is high, and so if

473
00:21:16,996 --> 00:21:18,916
Speaker 2: you work harder to get a promotion, to get a

474
00:21:18,916 --> 00:21:21,236
Speaker 2: pay rise, you're going to be ending up giving quite

475
00:21:21,276 --> 00:21:23,276
Speaker 2: a lot of that away in tax anyway, so there's

476
00:21:23,356 --> 00:21:25,956
Speaker 2: less of an incentive I guess financially to be doing that.

477
00:21:26,516 --> 00:21:29,356
Speaker 2: But people are still ambitious. People still earn good money,

478
00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:31,676
Speaker 2: they have nice cars, they have nice jobs. But that's

479
00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:33,356
Speaker 2: not the be all and end all. You're not judged

480
00:21:33,396 --> 00:21:35,636
Speaker 2: by that. So I guess children see that as well.

481
00:21:35,996 --> 00:21:38,756
Speaker 2: Their goal is not to have the flash's car. Your

482
00:21:38,796 --> 00:21:41,916
Speaker 2: goal is to have spare time. That's the price. It's time,

483
00:21:41,996 --> 00:21:45,036
Speaker 2: not money, And so I think children see that as well,

484
00:21:45,436 --> 00:21:48,436
Speaker 2: and it makes people more relaxed.

485
00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:50,796
Speaker 1: I guess, And that relationship to time I think changes

486
00:21:50,836 --> 00:21:53,156
Speaker 1: the way parents are spending time with kids a lot.

487
00:21:53,236 --> 00:21:54,796
Speaker 1: One of the things I was surprised by in your

488
00:21:54,796 --> 00:21:58,036
Speaker 1: book is all the kind of tiny moments where you

489
00:21:58,076 --> 00:22:01,796
Speaker 1: and your kids weren't necessarily doing kid activities specifically, but

490
00:22:01,916 --> 00:22:05,636
Speaker 1: you had the kids participating in whatever activities you were doing,

491
00:22:05,916 --> 00:22:08,276
Speaker 1: kind of getting the kids to do adult things early on.

492
00:22:08,636 --> 00:22:11,876
Speaker 1: What are some of the consequences of that for parent happiness? Oh?

493
00:22:11,916 --> 00:22:15,556
Speaker 2: Interesting, There is a sense that with a shorter working

494
00:22:15,596 --> 00:22:18,396
Speaker 2: week than elsewhere, the idea of having a home cooked

495
00:22:18,396 --> 00:22:21,396
Speaker 2: family dinner, for example, is a norm in the Nordic countries,

496
00:22:21,476 --> 00:22:23,516
Speaker 2: and it will be a child's job to lay the

497
00:22:23,516 --> 00:22:26,156
Speaker 2: table a child's job to light the candles, candles for

498
00:22:26,196 --> 00:22:28,956
Speaker 2: all meal times, even breakfast, to get that Hugo vibe.

499
00:22:29,236 --> 00:22:32,076
Speaker 2: A child will help with tiding up, and then you

500
00:22:32,116 --> 00:22:34,116
Speaker 2: do your clubs and activities after, so.

501
00:22:34,076 --> 00:22:36,116
Speaker 1: It kind of seems like kids are even more members

502
00:22:36,156 --> 00:22:36,676
Speaker 1: of the team.

503
00:22:36,996 --> 00:22:37,236
Speaker 2: Yeah.

504
00:22:37,236 --> 00:22:39,836
Speaker 1: Some American parents complain about feeling like they're kind of

505
00:22:39,876 --> 00:22:42,756
Speaker 1: like high end concierge for their kids, where they're driving

506
00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:45,596
Speaker 1: them around and making sure everything's perfect for them, you know,

507
00:22:45,636 --> 00:22:48,516
Speaker 1: even being their alarm clock in some situations. Or it

508
00:22:48,556 --> 00:22:51,236
Speaker 1: sounds like in Denmark there's like just an expectation that

509
00:22:51,316 --> 00:22:53,316
Speaker 1: kids are going to do more and that helps the

510
00:22:53,396 --> 00:22:54,956
Speaker 1: parents not feel so overwhelmed.

511
00:22:55,276 --> 00:22:57,036
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the team point is a really good one.

512
00:22:57,076 --> 00:22:59,236
Speaker 2: There's definitely a sense that we are in this family team.

513
00:22:59,236 --> 00:23:01,316
Speaker 2: I mean, the whole of Danish society is about teamwork,

514
00:23:01,476 --> 00:23:03,796
Speaker 2: so yeah, of course, why wouldn't your family be a team.

515
00:23:03,876 --> 00:23:05,956
Speaker 2: There's not a hierarchy. A lot of my Danish friends

516
00:23:05,956 --> 00:23:07,956
Speaker 2: would say I had no clue when I was growing

517
00:23:08,036 --> 00:23:10,876
Speaker 2: up that my vote on like what color we painted

518
00:23:10,876 --> 00:23:14,556
Speaker 2: the kitchen was no less worthy than my parents, and

519
00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:17,556
Speaker 2: just had no concept that they were lesser just because

520
00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:21,036
Speaker 2: they were children. But yeah, this emphasis on autonomy again.

521
00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:24,436
Speaker 2: There's a great late Danish psychologist called yes but Yule

522
00:23:24,476 --> 00:23:28,556
Speaker 2: who wrote a very seminal parenting book. He famously said

523
00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:30,716
Speaker 2: all children from the age of around five should be

524
00:23:30,716 --> 00:23:32,556
Speaker 2: able to wake themselves up with an alarm clock.

525
00:23:32,916 --> 00:23:34,076
Speaker 1: Wait. Wait, I just want to point out that you

526
00:23:34,116 --> 00:23:38,356
Speaker 1: said five, because I have Yale students whose parents still

527
00:23:38,516 --> 00:23:41,076
Speaker 1: call them and are their alarms especially during the like

528
00:23:41,156 --> 00:23:44,396
Speaker 1: you know, midterm season and so on, like, So five,

529
00:23:44,516 --> 00:23:47,996
Speaker 1: not twenty five, five repeat five. Just want to make sure.

530
00:23:48,076 --> 00:23:51,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he even gives parents a script of what

531
00:23:51,196 --> 00:23:54,876
Speaker 2: to say if they're not sure. My eldest, fiery redhead,

532
00:23:55,116 --> 00:23:57,076
Speaker 2: I didn't know quite how this was going to go down.

533
00:23:57,076 --> 00:23:58,716
Speaker 2: And I've got three children, and I have a job,

534
00:23:58,716 --> 00:24:01,036
Speaker 2: and I'm busy, And so he said, you say to

535
00:24:01,076 --> 00:24:04,076
Speaker 2: the child, listen. When you were really little, I thought

536
00:24:04,116 --> 00:24:05,596
Speaker 2: it was quite cute to wake you up every day,

537
00:24:05,596 --> 00:24:07,516
Speaker 2: but now I find it kind of a pain. And

538
00:24:07,556 --> 00:24:09,836
Speaker 2: so this is the alarm clock. You're going to wake

539
00:24:09,836 --> 00:24:12,716
Speaker 2: yourself up. That's how it is now. And I was

540
00:24:12,756 --> 00:24:15,596
Speaker 2: expecting some pushback, but my son just went, I got

541
00:24:15,596 --> 00:24:18,156
Speaker 2: my own alarm clock. Cool, it was done, and so

542
00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:21,116
Speaker 2: all of my children have their own alarm clocks. They

543
00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:24,716
Speaker 2: get themselves up. There is also a sense of for example,

544
00:24:25,076 --> 00:24:27,276
Speaker 2: if a parent needed to talk on the phone, or

545
00:24:27,316 --> 00:24:29,796
Speaker 2: even if they just wanted to again, not that martyr thing.

546
00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:32,076
Speaker 2: Maybe you just want to chat with your friend. You

547
00:24:32,116 --> 00:24:34,156
Speaker 2: say I can't talk right now because I'm talking to

548
00:24:34,156 --> 00:24:37,196
Speaker 2: my friend, and no explanation. Again, it's the equality piece,

549
00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:39,236
Speaker 2: so you don't have to be trying to raise the

550
00:24:39,236 --> 00:24:42,036
Speaker 2: ego of a child. You just say it how it is.

551
00:24:42,156 --> 00:24:44,876
Speaker 2: I think there's quite a reputation for straight talking, which

552
00:24:44,916 --> 00:24:46,796
Speaker 2: as of people pleasing brit I was not used to

553
00:24:46,836 --> 00:24:49,156
Speaker 2: it at all, But there is a bluntness and you

554
00:24:49,196 --> 00:24:51,276
Speaker 2: say what you mean, and you mean what you say,

555
00:24:51,476 --> 00:24:53,676
Speaker 2: and everyone knows where they stand. And I came to

556
00:24:53,756 --> 00:24:55,156
Speaker 2: really appreciate that.

557
00:24:55,236 --> 00:24:57,156
Speaker 1: I think after a while this was a part of

558
00:24:57,196 --> 00:25:00,756
Speaker 1: your book that seems so different from American parenting. We

559
00:25:00,956 --> 00:25:03,876
Speaker 1: just recently had a big report by our Surgeon General

560
00:25:04,036 --> 00:25:06,636
Speaker 1: at the time, vi Vic Murphy, who talked about one

561
00:25:06,676 --> 00:25:09,836
Speaker 1: of the mean things parents are experiencing these days is guilt,

562
00:25:10,036 --> 00:25:12,716
Speaker 1: just this negative emotion of not doing enough stuff. And

563
00:25:12,756 --> 00:25:14,836
Speaker 1: I love your example because you're just telling your kid look,

564
00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:16,756
Speaker 1: it's just not fun for me anymore to wake you up,

565
00:25:16,836 --> 00:25:18,316
Speaker 1: or I need to talk on the phone with my

566
00:25:18,396 --> 00:25:20,756
Speaker 1: friend and just kind of deal with it. But it

567
00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:23,596
Speaker 1: seems like Danish parents are able to do that without guilt.

568
00:25:24,076 --> 00:25:24,876
Speaker 1: How does that work?

569
00:25:25,196 --> 00:25:28,036
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's not perfect, and there will of

570
00:25:28,076 --> 00:25:30,636
Speaker 2: course be examples of parents who do feel guilty about stuff.

571
00:25:30,636 --> 00:25:32,636
Speaker 2: But I think if you take this basic idea that

572
00:25:32,676 --> 00:25:35,476
Speaker 2: respect is a given, that everyone is worthy just because

573
00:25:35,556 --> 00:25:38,236
Speaker 2: they exist, you don't have to prove yourself you are

574
00:25:38,476 --> 00:25:41,916
Speaker 2: enough just because you exist, which is mind blowing for

575
00:25:42,156 --> 00:25:45,716
Speaker 2: people of my generation. But I think if you're taking

576
00:25:45,716 --> 00:25:49,436
Speaker 2: that as your baseline, then why should anyone feel guilty?

577
00:25:49,476 --> 00:25:53,396
Speaker 2: I think this idea where you don't have to overpraise

578
00:25:53,476 --> 00:25:56,196
Speaker 2: your child to try and make them feel good. What

579
00:25:56,316 --> 00:25:59,236
Speaker 2: I see with parent friends from other countries is if

580
00:25:59,316 --> 00:26:01,436
Speaker 2: a parent is feeling a little guilty, there will be

581
00:26:01,676 --> 00:26:04,596
Speaker 2: a tendency perhaps to overcompensate. Maybe that's with gifts, maybe

582
00:26:04,636 --> 00:26:06,596
Speaker 2: that's with food, maybe that's with saying, oh, that's the

583
00:26:06,636 --> 00:26:09,716
Speaker 2: best picture I've ever seen, well done. And the Danish

584
00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:12,396
Speaker 2: ways not to do that so much. Firstly, as a

585
00:26:12,476 --> 00:26:14,676
Speaker 2: Danish child, you wouldn't know if your parents thought something

586
00:26:14,676 --> 00:26:17,236
Speaker 2: you'd done necessarily was good or not. But also it

587
00:26:17,236 --> 00:26:19,836
Speaker 2: wouldn't matter because you would know you were loved anyway,

588
00:26:19,996 --> 00:26:24,876
Speaker 2: just because. And secondly, the idea is that if a

589
00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:29,036
Speaker 2: child is constantly being praised and over praised from an

590
00:26:29,036 --> 00:26:32,596
Speaker 2: external person, they will spend their whole life seeking external validation,

591
00:26:33,156 --> 00:26:36,516
Speaker 2: which I think many of us will find familiar. So

592
00:26:36,636 --> 00:26:39,316
Speaker 2: actually it's much better for a child to develop their

593
00:26:39,356 --> 00:26:42,276
Speaker 2: own internal idea of I think this is good or no,

594
00:26:42,396 --> 00:26:44,356
Speaker 2: I think I can do something a bit different next time,

595
00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:48,756
Speaker 2: and they have that internal compass that again helps with autonomy,

596
00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:52,476
Speaker 2: feeling stronger, feeling more sort of in control of the world.

597
00:26:52,556 --> 00:26:54,556
Speaker 2: The world is a big scary place, but do you

598
00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:56,276
Speaker 2: feel more in control if you think, no, I know

599
00:26:56,796 --> 00:26:58,716
Speaker 2: that's the right thing to do. And so instead of

600
00:26:58,756 --> 00:27:01,916
Speaker 2: looking for external validation, they just center themselves and they

601
00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:04,796
Speaker 2: get to know themselves a little bit. And yeah, it

602
00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:06,996
Speaker 2: means that not every picture needs to go up on

603
00:27:07,076 --> 00:27:10,676
Speaker 2: the refrigerator, and that you're not constantly telling your child

604
00:27:10,676 --> 00:27:12,956
Speaker 2: that they're the best everthing, because they won't be.

605
00:27:13,076 --> 00:27:15,916
Speaker 1: They're not. So to recap if we want to raise

606
00:27:15,916 --> 00:27:19,156
Speaker 1: happier kids, we might need to broaden our definition of success.

607
00:27:19,716 --> 00:27:22,276
Speaker 1: We might need to take play more seriously, and we

608
00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:24,076
Speaker 1: might need to relax a bit when it comes to

609
00:27:24,116 --> 00:27:27,116
Speaker 1: the academic stuff. But if you're a parent, you're probably

610
00:27:27,156 --> 00:27:30,716
Speaker 1: thinking while all that's easier said than done. So after

611
00:27:30,756 --> 00:27:33,396
Speaker 1: the break we'll dive into Helen's actionable tips for how

612
00:27:33,436 --> 00:27:36,396
Speaker 1: caretakers can set the kinds of healthier boundaries that lead

613
00:27:36,396 --> 00:27:38,996
Speaker 1: to a less stressful life, not just for kids, but

614
00:27:39,036 --> 00:27:41,796
Speaker 1: for parents too. The Happiness Lab will be back in

615
00:27:41,836 --> 00:27:52,356
Speaker 1: a moment. I often hear from parents who tell me

616
00:27:52,516 --> 00:27:54,396
Speaker 1: that they just don't have the same sense of self

617
00:27:54,436 --> 00:27:57,836
Speaker 1: now as they did before having kids. They love their children,

618
00:27:58,156 --> 00:28:00,316
Speaker 1: but they worry that they've lost their own preferences and

619
00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:03,156
Speaker 1: identity somewhere on the path to becoming mom or dad.

620
00:28:03,756 --> 00:28:06,676
Speaker 1: Author Helen Russell says this is another spot where Nordic

621
00:28:06,716 --> 00:28:09,076
Speaker 1: families seem to be navigating things a little bit better.

622
00:28:09,676 --> 00:28:12,636
Speaker 1: Danish parents don't have as much trouble expressing their preferences

623
00:28:12,636 --> 00:28:15,876
Speaker 1: as US parents do, For instance, take bedtime.

624
00:28:16,196 --> 00:28:19,276
Speaker 2: So this is another really good example in that parenting

625
00:28:19,276 --> 00:28:21,996
Speaker 2: books i'd read from the UK and the US all

626
00:28:22,036 --> 00:28:24,756
Speaker 2: SAIDs things that there were basically along the lines of

627
00:28:24,836 --> 00:28:27,036
Speaker 2: a little bit kind of tricking your kid into going

628
00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:29,236
Speaker 2: to bed and just going, oh, look at the time,

629
00:28:29,276 --> 00:28:30,956
Speaker 2: now you're going to be tired tomorrow, and sort of

630
00:28:30,996 --> 00:28:35,116
Speaker 2: telling your child how they feel, which isn't the naudic approach.

631
00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:37,956
Speaker 2: Instead the culture there is much more saying but you

632
00:28:37,956 --> 00:28:40,196
Speaker 2: know what, I as a parent, I'm kind of tired now,

633
00:28:40,196 --> 00:28:41,756
Speaker 2: I'm kind of done. So if you could go to bed,

634
00:28:41,916 --> 00:28:43,356
Speaker 2: that would be great because I'm not doing any more

635
00:28:43,356 --> 00:28:45,636
Speaker 2: parenting now. So good night, I love you, I'll see

636
00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:48,236
Speaker 2: you in the morning with her alarm and that's it.

637
00:28:48,516 --> 00:28:51,596
Speaker 2: But again it's that trusting that the child will get

638
00:28:51,596 --> 00:28:54,436
Speaker 2: to know themselves. So the idea is that a child

639
00:28:54,516 --> 00:28:56,836
Speaker 2: should be able to have autonomy over when they are tired.

640
00:28:56,876 --> 00:28:58,516
Speaker 2: So you're not telling a child that they're sleepy. They

641
00:28:58,556 --> 00:29:00,516
Speaker 2: may not be sleepy. They can sit in bed if

642
00:29:00,516 --> 00:29:02,916
Speaker 2: they like, they're nothing exciting in there. They can read

643
00:29:02,916 --> 00:29:04,756
Speaker 2: a book if they really want to, but they are

644
00:29:04,796 --> 00:29:08,116
Speaker 2: just in bed now because it's parent time. And again,

645
00:29:08,156 --> 00:29:10,716
Speaker 2: around food, it's more that a child should be able

646
00:29:10,756 --> 00:29:12,076
Speaker 2: to tell if they are hungry or not. So you

647
00:29:12,116 --> 00:29:14,516
Speaker 2: don't say to a child you have to finish your

648
00:29:14,516 --> 00:29:18,276
Speaker 2: plate or no pudding Instead, you trust that a child

649
00:29:18,516 --> 00:29:21,036
Speaker 2: may have an idiosyncretic biological clock, they may not be

650
00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:23,396
Speaker 2: hungry and we are, and that they should be in

651
00:29:23,436 --> 00:29:26,236
Speaker 2: control of things like whether they're tired or hungry, or

652
00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:29,076
Speaker 2: whether they're too warm or too cold. You trust that

653
00:29:29,156 --> 00:29:32,836
Speaker 2: the child will know that, which I found again quite

654
00:29:32,916 --> 00:29:35,396
Speaker 2: challenging as an outsider, because I grew up with the

655
00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:38,596
Speaker 2: generation that you finish your plate, and then lots of

656
00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:41,476
Speaker 2: my peers had eating disorders in their teens and twenties

657
00:29:41,676 --> 00:29:45,756
Speaker 2: and just not trusting our own appetites for anything. I

658
00:29:45,916 --> 00:29:48,596
Speaker 2: do feel it's quite problematic, and so I found it

659
00:29:48,716 --> 00:29:50,556
Speaker 2: very difficult, but it was something I knew. I definitely

660
00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:53,316
Speaker 2: wanted to try to put in place for my children

661
00:29:53,356 --> 00:29:56,076
Speaker 2: so that they again got this sense of themselves that

662
00:29:56,316 --> 00:29:58,316
Speaker 2: wasn't from external voices.

663
00:29:58,636 --> 00:30:00,156
Speaker 1: It strikes me up at this in some ways as

664
00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:02,316
Speaker 1: easier for comparance. Obviously, it's harder because you want to

665
00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:04,476
Speaker 1: help your kids and make sure they're you're eating rye

666
00:30:04,476 --> 00:30:06,636
Speaker 1: and going to sleep on time and so on. But

667
00:30:06,756 --> 00:30:09,716
Speaker 1: if you give your kids that responsibility, it must be

668
00:30:09,756 --> 00:30:12,396
Speaker 1: that parents wind up feeling less overwhelmed because there's kind

669
00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:13,956
Speaker 1: of less stuff that you have to do if you're

670
00:30:13,956 --> 00:30:16,796
Speaker 1: worrying about their senses and their feelings and their needs

671
00:30:16,876 --> 00:30:18,996
Speaker 1: all the time. Like if you offload that so that

672
00:30:19,036 --> 00:30:21,076
Speaker 1: they do it themselves, not only do they learn how

673
00:30:21,076 --> 00:30:23,236
Speaker 1: to do it, but it's kind of less overwhelmed and

674
00:30:23,316 --> 00:30:25,876
Speaker 1: less work for you as a parent too. I think so.

675
00:30:25,996 --> 00:30:28,156
Speaker 2: And some people have kids who are just a great

676
00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:30,556
Speaker 2: sleepers or great eaters, and that's brilliant for them. I

677
00:30:30,596 --> 00:30:34,876
Speaker 2: have three very different children. I have experienced many different approaches,

678
00:30:35,036 --> 00:30:38,116
Speaker 2: but actually the only thing I have control over is myself.

679
00:30:38,276 --> 00:30:41,316
Speaker 2: So if I say I'm tired, and that's true, I

680
00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:43,996
Speaker 2: am exhausted by about ten PM. So if I say

681
00:30:44,036 --> 00:30:46,916
Speaker 2: I'm tired now, so I need you to go to bed,

682
00:30:47,196 --> 00:30:48,596
Speaker 2: I'll see you in the morning and I love you,

683
00:30:48,996 --> 00:30:51,636
Speaker 2: then again that feels like I'm modeling because I'm saying, well,

684
00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:53,316
Speaker 2: I have needs, these are my needs. I need to

685
00:30:53,316 --> 00:30:56,116
Speaker 2: be done with parenting now for the day to be fresh,

686
00:30:56,156 --> 00:30:58,836
Speaker 2: to be ready for the next day. And gives a

687
00:30:58,836 --> 00:31:00,876
Speaker 2: bit of a life back to parents, which I think

688
00:31:01,196 --> 00:31:06,636
Speaker 2: so many parenting manuals or advice columns or gurus out there.

689
00:31:06,956 --> 00:31:08,476
Speaker 2: As you say, there's a lot of pressure and it

690
00:31:08,516 --> 00:31:10,156
Speaker 2: you can feel very guilty, and you can feel like

691
00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:11,956
Speaker 2: you're not doing the right thing, and it's never enough.

692
00:31:12,316 --> 00:31:15,796
Speaker 2: And this Nordic approach just seemed kind of easy. You

693
00:31:15,796 --> 00:31:17,956
Speaker 2: can kind of let your shoulders drop and you can

694
00:31:18,036 --> 00:31:21,396
Speaker 2: exhale finally, and you get a bit of your life back.

695
00:31:21,716 --> 00:31:23,876
Speaker 2: And if the studies are to be believed, your children

696
00:31:23,916 --> 00:31:26,716
Speaker 2: are happier, healthier, and more resilient. And I certainly see

697
00:31:27,196 --> 00:31:29,036
Speaker 2: with my own children and the children and my friends

698
00:31:29,036 --> 00:31:31,076
Speaker 2: and throughout the Nordic countries, all of the young people

699
00:31:31,076 --> 00:31:33,556
Speaker 2: I spoke to, that there is something in it. It

700
00:31:33,636 --> 00:31:35,836
Speaker 2: makes sense that they have this autonomy, this sense of

701
00:31:35,876 --> 00:31:36,556
Speaker 2: self worth.

702
00:31:36,636 --> 00:31:38,916
Speaker 1: It also seems like Danish parents are just kind of

703
00:31:39,076 --> 00:31:42,636
Speaker 1: chiller generally, like they just kind of don't get as

704
00:31:42,716 --> 00:31:45,796
Speaker 1: upset about their kids resistant behavior and so on. Was

705
00:31:45,836 --> 00:31:48,196
Speaker 1: that something you observed and was that something you were

706
00:31:48,196 --> 00:31:49,236
Speaker 1: able to model yourself?

707
00:31:49,316 --> 00:31:50,996
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, we all had this idea. Well, I

708
00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:54,876
Speaker 2: certainly did a vikings of these big, strong, marauding group

709
00:31:54,956 --> 00:31:57,676
Speaker 2: of people, but actually moder day vikings, it turns out,

710
00:31:57,756 --> 00:32:00,556
Speaker 2: barely raise their voices at all. I was really surprised,

711
00:32:00,676 --> 00:32:04,356
Speaker 2: and coming from a different parenting culture, I am used

712
00:32:04,396 --> 00:32:08,356
Speaker 2: to perhaps hearing in supermarkets, you know, a parent telling

713
00:32:08,396 --> 00:32:12,676
Speaker 2: their child off. I rarely hear parents raise their voices

714
00:32:12,716 --> 00:32:15,996
Speaker 2: in the Nordic countries. In Sweden especially, there's this very soft,

715
00:32:16,036 --> 00:32:18,836
Speaker 2: sort of soothing voice. And one of the parents I

716
00:32:18,836 --> 00:32:20,756
Speaker 2: spoke to you there, said yeah, I couldn't believe it.

717
00:32:20,916 --> 00:32:22,996
Speaker 2: She's British and she lives in Sweden and she was saying,

718
00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:25,476
Speaker 2: my neighbor's kid lock themselves in the shed and said,

719
00:32:25,516 --> 00:32:26,996
Speaker 2: you weren't going to school. And I said, did you

720
00:32:27,036 --> 00:32:27,756
Speaker 2: lose your mind?

721
00:32:27,836 --> 00:32:28,316
Speaker 1: She said no.

722
00:32:28,476 --> 00:32:32,796
Speaker 2: I said, well, we'll try again tomorrow. I'm not sure

723
00:32:33,276 --> 00:32:36,156
Speaker 2: I would have that patience, but there seem to be

724
00:32:36,316 --> 00:32:39,996
Speaker 2: reserves of patients, and I'm thinking it's something to do

725
00:32:40,036 --> 00:32:42,796
Speaker 2: with being raised that way themselves, that they know what works.

726
00:32:43,116 --> 00:32:45,316
Speaker 2: As you say, it's kind of giving more time and

727
00:32:45,556 --> 00:32:47,836
Speaker 2: headspace back to the parents. So they just are a

728
00:32:47,836 --> 00:32:50,436
Speaker 2: little calmer. They're a bit better able to cope with

729
00:32:50,556 --> 00:32:55,196
Speaker 2: the challenges that parenting can throw at any of us. So, yes,

730
00:32:55,316 --> 00:32:57,756
Speaker 2: it is very calm. There is a sense that if

731
00:32:57,756 --> 00:32:59,996
Speaker 2: you raise your voice, you've lost it, You've lost that battle,

732
00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:02,396
Speaker 2: and again you're modeling to your child, and brains can

733
00:33:02,516 --> 00:33:03,956
Speaker 2: show that if you raise your voice at a child.

734
00:33:03,956 --> 00:33:06,276
Speaker 2: If you're shouting at a child, they can go into

735
00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:08,876
Speaker 2: that defensive mode where they're not actually hearing what you

736
00:33:08,916 --> 00:33:11,796
Speaker 2: say say or taking in anyway, which I thought sounded

737
00:33:11,876 --> 00:33:13,756
Speaker 2: very convenient when I first heard it. Better, you know,

738
00:33:13,796 --> 00:33:15,676
Speaker 2: I've seen the brain scans, I've seen the science, and

739
00:33:15,716 --> 00:33:18,516
Speaker 2: now I'm thinking, oh, yes, okay, that's true, and I'm

740
00:33:18,596 --> 00:33:20,556
Speaker 2: still not immune to doing that, but I know that

741
00:33:20,596 --> 00:33:22,676
Speaker 2: I've lost when that happens, and I know that if

742
00:33:22,716 --> 00:33:25,356
Speaker 2: I really want to get through, I have to channel

743
00:33:25,396 --> 00:33:28,116
Speaker 2: my inner Nordic parent and try and remain, can't.

744
00:33:28,236 --> 00:33:30,156
Speaker 1: I think another thing is different from America, I mean

745
00:33:30,196 --> 00:33:32,396
Speaker 1: the UK parents is that even in that shed situation

746
00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:34,476
Speaker 1: you talked about, like if you don't get the kid

747
00:33:34,556 --> 00:33:36,276
Speaker 1: to school, and sometimes it's like, oh my gosh, the

748
00:33:36,356 --> 00:33:37,836
Speaker 1: kid's not going to go to school and they won't

749
00:33:37,836 --> 00:33:39,636
Speaker 1: get the right grades and they'll never get into college.

750
00:33:39,676 --> 00:33:43,596
Speaker 1: There's this real fear of failure I think in US parenting,

751
00:33:43,996 --> 00:33:46,636
Speaker 1: but in Danish parenting system it seems like failure is

752
00:33:46,716 --> 00:33:48,956
Speaker 1: kind of okay, it's sort of just like this, oh well,

753
00:33:48,996 --> 00:33:50,556
Speaker 1: there's even a word for it too that I think

754
00:33:50,556 --> 00:33:52,716
Speaker 1: you really embraced, right. I think it's actually behind you

755
00:33:52,796 --> 00:33:55,796
Speaker 1: right now, the pit the pyt Oh, yeah, do you

756
00:33:55,876 --> 00:33:56,276
Speaker 1: know what's it?

757
00:33:56,556 --> 00:33:58,836
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is this idea where it means sort of

758
00:33:58,876 --> 00:34:01,636
Speaker 2: like it doesn't matter, it's fine. So yeah, along with

759
00:34:01,676 --> 00:34:04,196
Speaker 2: the trouble and the tillid this is the great word.

760
00:34:04,276 --> 00:34:06,796
Speaker 2: So you just think, oh, just let it go, it's fine.

761
00:34:06,996 --> 00:34:09,556
Speaker 2: And as a naturally repressed British woman, I have to

762
00:34:09,596 --> 00:34:12,156
Speaker 2: just remind myself of this at all times. But yeah,

763
00:34:12,196 --> 00:34:14,236
Speaker 2: I think that feeds into the parenting. As you say,

764
00:34:14,356 --> 00:34:16,836
Speaker 2: is this idea of it's not the end of the world.

765
00:34:17,076 --> 00:34:18,996
Speaker 2: And we know enough of studies now to know that

766
00:34:19,276 --> 00:34:21,716
Speaker 2: failure is important for growth and that it happens, you

767
00:34:21,716 --> 00:34:25,196
Speaker 2: can't avoid it, So why not just let it happen

768
00:34:25,236 --> 00:34:27,196
Speaker 2: when it happens, and hope that it happens in fairly

769
00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:29,756
Speaker 2: low stakes ways so that it doesn't happen in the

770
00:34:29,756 --> 00:34:32,436
Speaker 2: big stakes way later on. And I think again, it's

771
00:34:32,436 --> 00:34:35,236
Speaker 2: this idea where we're all worthy just because, and there's

772
00:34:35,276 --> 00:34:38,116
Speaker 2: an emotional safety net at all times, so that if

773
00:34:38,116 --> 00:34:41,316
Speaker 2: something goes wrong, you are still loved and held and

774
00:34:41,356 --> 00:34:43,836
Speaker 2: you will be helped back up to hopefully learn from it.

775
00:34:43,876 --> 00:34:44,396
Speaker 2: Next time.

776
00:34:44,916 --> 00:34:46,676
Speaker 1: So one of the reasons I was especially excited to

777
00:34:46,676 --> 00:34:49,156
Speaker 1: talk to you now is that I know you've recently

778
00:34:49,396 --> 00:34:52,116
Speaker 1: left the Viking world and moved back to the UK.

779
00:34:52,676 --> 00:34:55,596
Speaker 1: So having kind of been a Danish parent for a decade,

780
00:34:55,636 --> 00:34:57,996
Speaker 1: now you're back to being the UK parent, and so

781
00:34:58,036 --> 00:35:01,196
Speaker 1: I'm curious how you keep these Danish norms in a

782
00:35:01,236 --> 00:35:04,516
Speaker 1: situation where many parents aren't following them. How do you

783
00:35:04,556 --> 00:35:07,076
Speaker 1: follow the Danish ways even if you're maybe not living

784
00:35:07,116 --> 00:35:08,156
Speaker 1: in Denmark at the time.

785
00:35:08,436 --> 00:35:10,316
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been interesting and it has sort of put

786
00:35:10,356 --> 00:35:11,676
Speaker 2: it to test because when I wrote the book, I

787
00:35:11,676 --> 00:35:13,796
Speaker 2: didn't know that i'd be moving back. And as you say,

788
00:35:13,796 --> 00:35:16,316
Speaker 2: it's much easier to put all these things into practice

789
00:35:16,396 --> 00:35:18,676
Speaker 2: when you're in the Nordic countries, and when you're out

790
00:35:18,676 --> 00:35:20,076
Speaker 2: of them, that's when they're really put to the test.

791
00:35:20,076 --> 00:35:21,836
Speaker 2: But I've been going back to it, following my own

792
00:35:21,836 --> 00:35:24,916
Speaker 2: advice or following the advice of these Nordic parenting experts

793
00:35:24,916 --> 00:35:28,636
Speaker 2: and parent friends. And of course it's a different school system.

794
00:35:28,676 --> 00:35:30,916
Speaker 2: They've never done exams for, they've never done homework before,

795
00:35:30,956 --> 00:35:33,596
Speaker 2: but hoping that they understand that. Of course, I want

796
00:35:33,596 --> 00:35:35,756
Speaker 2: you to learn and I want you to try your best,

797
00:35:35,876 --> 00:35:37,756
Speaker 2: but it's not the end of the world. They still

798
00:35:37,796 --> 00:35:40,196
Speaker 2: have their alarm clocks. I still tell them when I'm

799
00:35:40,236 --> 00:35:41,876
Speaker 2: done for the day, you need to be in your

800
00:35:41,916 --> 00:35:44,396
Speaker 2: rooms now. And I try and make sure with all

801
00:35:44,396 --> 00:35:46,676
Speaker 2: of the activities and the business and the schedules that

802
00:35:46,716 --> 00:35:48,876
Speaker 2: we all have these days, that there is time for

803
00:35:48,916 --> 00:35:51,996
Speaker 2: them to just be and be really bored. Boredom's the

804
00:35:52,036 --> 00:35:53,636
Speaker 2: best thing, you know. I wouldn't have been a writer

805
00:35:53,676 --> 00:35:55,676
Speaker 2: if I hadn't had the opportunity to be bored as

806
00:35:55,676 --> 00:35:57,916
Speaker 2: a child, and I think that's something we often lose

807
00:35:57,956 --> 00:36:01,116
Speaker 2: a lot in modern lives. Also, I have one daughter.

808
00:36:01,516 --> 00:36:04,116
Speaker 2: It was really important to me that she was allowed

809
00:36:04,156 --> 00:36:07,716
Speaker 2: to still do all of the kind of marauding Viking stuff.

810
00:36:07,996 --> 00:36:10,036
Speaker 2: So I want all of my children to still be

811
00:36:10,076 --> 00:36:12,476
Speaker 2: able to take risks and to be active and to

812
00:36:12,516 --> 00:36:14,996
Speaker 2: be outdoors. It was really important to me that nobody

813
00:36:15,036 --> 00:36:16,996
Speaker 2: ever told my daughter that she can't climb a tree,

814
00:36:17,276 --> 00:36:19,236
Speaker 2: and I'm very happy to say that in a month and

815
00:36:19,276 --> 00:36:21,076
Speaker 2: a half in she is higher up the trees than

816
00:36:21,076 --> 00:36:23,316
Speaker 2: she's ever been. I do get some strange looks from

817
00:36:23,316 --> 00:36:25,476
Speaker 2: other parents. Someone asked me the other day, my kids

818
00:36:25,476 --> 00:36:29,716
Speaker 2: were all outside and she said, you do know it's raining, right, Yeah,

819
00:36:29,796 --> 00:36:34,436
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, that's fine. So just trying to, I guess,

820
00:36:34,676 --> 00:36:36,756
Speaker 2: give them that autonomy. So I have given them all

821
00:36:36,916 --> 00:36:38,596
Speaker 2: jobs and they have things that they have to do

822
00:36:38,636 --> 00:36:41,716
Speaker 2: with the running of the household. I've got my hammer out.

823
00:36:41,716 --> 00:36:43,796
Speaker 2: I've put up a lot of shells at kid height

824
00:36:44,116 --> 00:36:45,236
Speaker 2: so they can reach everything.

825
00:36:45,236 --> 00:36:46,076
Speaker 1: They can do everything.

826
00:36:46,436 --> 00:36:48,996
Speaker 2: There's a cupboard where there are any time snacks that

827
00:36:49,036 --> 00:36:51,876
Speaker 2: they're allowed any time, so I don't have to be

828
00:36:51,956 --> 00:36:55,356
Speaker 2: the one providing snacks for them or their friends. And yes,

829
00:36:55,676 --> 00:36:57,276
Speaker 2: someone also asked me the other day, like, you don't

830
00:36:57,276 --> 00:36:59,236
Speaker 2: have any of your kids' pictures on the fridge. No

831
00:37:00,396 --> 00:37:04,436
Speaker 2: kids pictured it on the refrigerator. So yeah, I'm trying

832
00:37:04,436 --> 00:37:07,196
Speaker 2: to put it into practice in the non Nordic world now.

833
00:37:07,236 --> 00:37:09,276
Speaker 1: And so you get pushed back from other parents. This

834
00:37:09,356 --> 00:37:11,476
Speaker 1: is something a lot of American parents report feeling the

835
00:37:11,556 --> 00:37:13,356
Speaker 1: most guilty about, is when they get the kind of

836
00:37:13,676 --> 00:37:16,236
Speaker 1: side eye from another mom being like, oh, you're doing that.

837
00:37:16,876 --> 00:37:18,956
Speaker 1: How do you steal yourself against that? How do you

838
00:37:18,996 --> 00:37:21,196
Speaker 1: decide like, well, I'm proud of what I'm doing.

839
00:37:21,476 --> 00:37:23,476
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I'm a massive geek, so I defer

840
00:37:23,516 --> 00:37:25,516
Speaker 2: to people like you. I'll defer to all the science

841
00:37:25,556 --> 00:37:28,356
Speaker 2: and say, well, actually, OECD studies, so raising children in

842
00:37:28,396 --> 00:37:30,236
Speaker 2: the Nordic mode helps them to be happier and healthier,

843
00:37:30,356 --> 00:37:32,796
Speaker 2: more resilient. And there's so much now that we know

844
00:37:33,276 --> 00:37:36,836
Speaker 2: about things like work life balance, things like school, things

845
00:37:36,956 --> 00:37:40,356
Speaker 2: like autonomy and risky play that I just tend to

846
00:37:40,356 --> 00:37:42,596
Speaker 2: be a massive geek and reel off the science. So

847
00:37:43,316 --> 00:37:45,196
Speaker 2: in the back of this book, I've written all the

848
00:37:45,196 --> 00:37:48,196
Speaker 2: studies just flick it in their paces that's flicking in

849
00:37:48,236 --> 00:37:50,796
Speaker 2: the other parent places, and we'll start a Viking revolution.

850
00:37:52,156 --> 00:37:55,116
Speaker 1: I love Helen's idea of starting a Viking parent revolution,

851
00:37:55,716 --> 00:37:58,636
Speaker 1: and just to recap Helen's ideas for how to do that. First,

852
00:37:58,756 --> 00:38:00,796
Speaker 1: remember that taking time for what you need as a

853
00:38:00,836 --> 00:38:04,476
Speaker 1: parent isn't selfish, it's modeling self care. When you trust

854
00:38:04,476 --> 00:38:07,236
Speaker 1: yourself in your needs, your children will learn to trust

855
00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:11,516
Speaker 1: theirs too. Second, embraced quiet, boredom and failure. If your

856
00:38:11,596 --> 00:38:14,636
Speaker 1: kid locks themselves into proverbial shed one day, know that

857
00:38:14,676 --> 00:38:16,436
Speaker 1: even though it feels like the end of the world,

858
00:38:16,636 --> 00:38:19,796
Speaker 1: the sun will rise again. And finally, don't let other

859
00:38:19,836 --> 00:38:22,796
Speaker 1: parents side eyes keep you from embracing your inner Viking.

860
00:38:23,836 --> 00:38:26,236
Speaker 1: In the next episode, we'll tackle the question of how

861
00:38:26,236 --> 00:38:29,836
Speaker 1: we can set healthier boundaries, both in our parenting and beyond.

862
00:38:30,156 --> 00:38:33,436
Speaker 1: We'll chat with clinical psychologist and parenting expert doctor Becky

863
00:38:33,516 --> 00:38:37,036
Speaker 1: Kennedy will share her expert tips for expressing boundaries and

864
00:38:37,156 --> 00:38:38,556
Speaker 1: firm but compassionate ways.

865
00:38:38,836 --> 00:38:41,916
Speaker 3: We have some unconscious belief that, like I'm going to

866
00:38:41,996 --> 00:38:44,756
Speaker 3: set some really good boundary for my kid, my kid's

867
00:38:44,796 --> 00:38:47,596
Speaker 3: gonna be like that is amazing parenting mom. Thank you,

868
00:38:47,756 --> 00:38:49,196
Speaker 3: I do need to go to bed. Thank you for

869
00:38:49,236 --> 00:38:52,556
Speaker 3: turning off the TV. Never no child in my house

870
00:38:52,636 --> 00:38:54,556
Speaker 3: or any child I know with normal has ever said

871
00:38:54,556 --> 00:38:55,316
Speaker 3: that all that.

872
00:38:55,356 --> 00:38:58,276
Speaker 1: Next time on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie

873
00:38:58,276 --> 00:38:58,756
Speaker 1: Santo's