WEBVTT - #075 Jason Flom with Sadhguru 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.680 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up like cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.760 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.320 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:19.840 This isn't supposed to happen this way. 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:23.920 I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. I know I had 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:24.880 nothing to do with this. 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:27.240 How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.600 I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:33.639 that every human being should do the right thing. And 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:35.559 that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.000 corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:40.760 me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:42.840 fact that I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.479 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.120 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:51.839 Our system. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:54.040 Since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:55.480 but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.480 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:04.600 This is wrongful conviction. 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.319 Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. Today I 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:27.000 have that's me, But today I have an extraordinary treat 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.000 for me and for you the audience. 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:34.160 My guest today is sad Guru. And sad Garu is. 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:40.920 An internationally renowned yogi and mystic teacher of meditation, a 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.680 New York Times bestselling author, and a man who has 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:49.360 done fantastic work in prisons all over the world, teaching 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:53.880 meditation and enlightenment to people. 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.520 Who most needed. I think you could say so, sod Guru, 0:01:57.600 --> 0:01:58.480 welcome to the show. 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:00.320 Thank you for having me here. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:07.120 So this is so exciting because the idea of being 0:02:07.120 --> 0:02:13.720 able to explore this aspect of the mind and the 0:02:14.639 --> 0:02:18.600 you know, the mind inside the prison and how to 0:02:18.639 --> 0:02:23.359 transcend these most terrible circumstances, which I've heard you talk 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:27.000 about in videos, It's something that I think can help 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.680 people both on the inside and the outside. Family members 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:34.120 as well, but everybody. So I'm really interested in knowing 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.400 how you how you got started first of all, on 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:42.400 this journey, and even more so, how you became interested 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:46.880 and involved in taking this practice inside the prison walls. 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:51.680 So this is almost twenty seven, twenty eight years ago, 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:55.200 I think twenty eight years ago, there was a ladies 0:02:55.240 --> 0:03:00.240 club in cormetor city where we are located now. They 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.840 invited me to speak in that ladies club. This is, 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.280 you know, a group of maybe two hundred very elite 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:14.799 women of the town. So I was talking to them 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:19.399 and just outside their club building there's a nice tree. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:21.200 We were sitting under the tree and I was speaking 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:25.480 to them. Then I saw this big wall which is 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:29.679 nearly twenty feet tall wall. I looked at the wall 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.280 and said, why such a big wall here? And the 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:36.760 fantastic thing is none of them knew. Then I just 0:03:36.920 --> 0:03:39.440 enquired with the volunteers that were around me. They said, 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:43.000 this is the prison. It is in the heart of 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.720 the city and there's a prison. These ladies that club, 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:50.320 the you know, one part of their club is touching 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:55.240 the wall and they don't know it's a prison. And 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:57.760 then I discovered the road, the main road in the 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:02.480 city is called jail Road. Yes, then I said, I 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:04.080 would like to meet those people who are on the 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:05.520 other side of the wall. I would like to do 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:07.680 something with them. I would like to see who are they. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.600 Then we discovered the superintendent of the prison was somebody 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:16.200 who was known to me. Then I tried to put 0:04:16.200 --> 0:04:18.120 an application saying that I would like to come and 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:18.680 do something. 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:20.400 So you're breaking into the prison. 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.840 Yes, breaking into the prison is not easy. It took 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.240 me over two years to get inside. I did not 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:27.680 have the qualifications. 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.839 And what was your application when you were saying that 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:32.800 I want to go inside? 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.359 Because because I said I would like to do something 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:38.880 with his prisoners and see who they are. Then I 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:44.960 discovered there were over fourteen hundred prisoners inside. I said, 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:47.920 fourteen hundred people, what are they for? It doesn't matter. 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:50.560 My work is with human beings. It doesn't matter where 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:54.400 they are, So let's go. So when I went inside 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.640 or and I tried to get inside, they put me 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.080 through some three interviews that I'm fit enough to go 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:07.320 to the prison or not. And they've said Seth Grew, 0:05:07.400 --> 0:05:10.040 don't waste your time here these guys. You just can't 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:13.880 do anything with them. Every Sunday some Christian priests comes. 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.960 All they do is mischief, and Friday, some Islamic guys 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.679 are coming. No good and another festival days and other things. 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.320 The Hindu people are coming. It's no good nothing. You 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:27.720 can't teach them anything, you can't do anything with them. 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:31.480 All they understand, is just beating punishment? This all you 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:32.680 don't waste your time here. 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:34.920 Well, let me ask you this prison. Was this considered 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.200 a maximum security prison. It is, and so the people 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:42.800 there are mostly in for murder or silent crimes. 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:49.440 Nearly nearly, probably six hundred to seven hundred them of 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:54.440 them are for murder, but largely long term prisoners. Long 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.360 term means in India anything over eight years is considered 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:03.040 long term prison. So my said, give me a chance, 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.680 let me just talk to them. It took me a 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:09.320 little over two years to convince them that they should 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:14.240 let me in. So when we went in, there were 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:19.719 twelve words. You know, in each word there is something 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.000 like one hundred and thirty two hundred and forty. So 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.600 we picked a ward which had over two hundred prisoners, 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.920 the largest ward, and this is everybody has come there 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.880 for life imprisonment. This means they have done either murder 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:37.680 or more. So I said, let me do this. So 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:40.719 they put full security armed police. I said, take them out. 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:42.880 They're not going to harm me anything. Just take them out. 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:47.360 It's not a problem. They said, no, we cannot do that. Anyway. 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:50.839 There were some policemen. Then I asked them together outside, 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:53.839 they all came looking at me. Okay, what is this 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.120 guy going to do with us? So we just arranged 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.880 a small game and started playing the game with them. 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:03.800 So, okay, so it's you and two hundred. 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:10.680 Yes, and fifteen criminals hardened and softened. I don't know 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.080 all of them are there for murder or more. So 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:18.680 we started playing a game and they got so involved 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.040 like little children. They screamed and yelled, and they played 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.240 the game full on for about an hour. Then I 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.560 stopped and then for about half an hour because they 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:31.040 gave me only two hours maximum two hours you have 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.480 to leave the prison. So then I spoke to them 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:35.160 for half an hour and told them, see, this is 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:37.360 what I wish to do. All of you guys should 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:42.080 write to the authority, to the superintendent that you want 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.360 this program for you. You won't believe when I had 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.080 to leave at the end of two hours, at least 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:53.480 sixty percent of them were all in tears. They're saying, 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:57.400 you don't go, you stay with us. So seeing this, 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.720 then they allowed me to conduct a program. The first 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.480 program I did it was a ten day thing, two 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:08.600 hours every day, ten days. So I sought permission to 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.720 stay inside the prison. I said, let me stay there 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.920 ten days with them, so that they feel I'm there 0:08:15.400 --> 0:08:18.160 really wanting to do something with them, not just for 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.920 cosmetic purposes. I couldn't get that permission because there were 0:08:21.920 --> 0:08:26.920 some militants in India they called terrorists, so some of 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:29.240 the terrorists were in prison in that prison. They said, no, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.160 we can't let you stay there. But every day I 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.880 went there. My thing was only for two hours, but 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:39.480 I went there, served mail to them, participated with them 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:42.720 in their break times. I was there. We participated in 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:46.280 all activity in the prison, in that ward where these 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:47.200 prisoners were there. 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:49.640 I want to back up a second. So you would 0:08:49.679 --> 0:08:51.640 go in and even the first time you said you'd 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:52.920 play a game, what kind of a game. 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.600 We just played simple games. We have certain games like 0:08:56.679 --> 0:08:58.880 dodgeball and that kind of stuff. 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:01.559 Two hundred people. Yeah, that sounds. 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:05.160 Insane, rolicking fun we had. So every day in the 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.080 two hour program ten days, we had about half an 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.680 hour to forty five minutes was just games. Then we 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.800 thought them some simple process of yoga and spoke to 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.599 them a variety of things. The kind of transformation it 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:20.840 brought about there. This prison on that day had one 0:09:20.920 --> 0:09:23.640 hundred and thirty six years of history. It was during 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:25.520 the British era that it was set up as a 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:31.120 maximum security prison. In these one thirty six years, every day, 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:35.920 literally every day, someone was always in the solitary. The 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:39.040 solitary in that prison is like a four by four box, 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.480 four feet by four feet steel box. You can only sit, 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:47.440 you can't stand up, so in that they put you 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.320 for a week ten days like this. But after we 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.840 did the program, after we did three programs, I think 0:09:55.760 --> 0:10:00.000 nobody went into the solitary for more than two years. 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.920 Not a single person entered the solitary. That's the kind 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:07.320 of difference it made. And they burst forth into poetry. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.559 Most of them are school dropouts or many of them illiterate, 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.560 but they all burst out into poetry, writing poems. We 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:19.000 have over three to four thousand poems which is being 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:23.680 released in India as a part of this program. Be 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.559 called as in a Freedom for the imprisoned. 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.200 In her freedom for the impression, I must tell you this. 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.480 There was one guy's name is Shanmogum. I think he's 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:37.120 been executed now. He was there for three murders which 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:40.080 he committed in the courtroom. He killed three people in 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:44.760 the courtroom. Wow, so that is a kind of crime. 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:47.319 You can't get away in the courtroom. When you do it, 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:48.840 it's considered the worst thing. 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:52.400 Well, and it's pretty hard too, yeah, I mean it's 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:54.880 that of the judge, I mean. 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:58.160 Your judges, the eyewitness. 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.560 So yeah, you're pretty much done there. 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:06.839 So he wrote a poem which you brought the entire 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:12.360 prison into tears and just about anybody who reads the poem. 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.640 He just said he's been in the on the death 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.360 row for about seven years. By then, every time in 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:23.280 the evening, see, daytime is quite okay in the prison. 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:27.520 From morning six to evening six, it's fine. Sunset, everybody 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.440 goes into the cells and the cell door closes. Normally 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.360 in India it's a eight by five cell. Three people 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.680 will be there. That is when all kinds of horrors begin. 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.079 One thing the prison psychologists told us is every day 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:46.400 in the night, in their sleep, people are howling like animals. 0:11:47.840 --> 0:11:51.120 One simple thing that happened with the simple meditation process 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.880 we brought is people first sharing is their sleeping peacefully. 0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:00.600 All these sounds and ailings stopped. And this guy poem. 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.320 Every day when the cell door closes, I thought this 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.000 was my grave but now this has become my body tree. 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.600 If the cell door closes, you know, the Bodhi tree 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.160 were Buddha, God enlightened. When the cell door closes, I 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.880 close my eyes and I'm in a different world altogether. 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.760 This has become my body tree. He wrote this poem 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:23.240 in Tamil in the local language. So like this there 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:30.280 we've seen many, many fantastic transformational stories. See, the law 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.440 has its ways. I mean, it's not for me to 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.840 suddenly ask for a change in law or something, because 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.559 you have to maintain law and order in a country. 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:43.920 There are many issues, but no matter where a human 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.800 being is. Actually everywhere they call it a correction center, 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.880 but there is no room for correction. In fact, people 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:54.680 who go to prison for short stints and come they 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.160 become really hardcore criminals when they come out. At least 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.000 that's true in India. So when they go in they 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.720 may be just pretty criminals, when they come out they 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.360 become serious level of crime. 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.920 Right, that's a generalization here. I shouldn't say that, but 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.680 it does happen because it's logical. And also when we 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:13.680 people here come out, they come out with a stigma 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:15.920 having been incarcerated. It's harder to get a job, and 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:16.880 it's harder, you know, they. 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:18.400 If they had what else come out of it? 0:13:18.480 --> 0:13:22.120 Skills, they may learn criminal skills. But I want to 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.400 say too, just not to direct your flow here, but 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:29.080 today is it particularly an interesting day for you to 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:32.120 be here, because as we were discussing before, today is 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.280 the day when Washington State abolished the death penalty, becoming 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.959 it's wonderful the twentieth state in America to do so, 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:43.000 and hopefully we'll get all fifty because it's preposterous that 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.560 we send it's disgusting that we as a country still 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:48.640 execute people. It's also the eve of and you brought 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.079 this up. You know, we call it correctional, as you said, 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.920 but it's just punitive. All we do is punish people. 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.320 I mean, there are some little programs here and there, 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.439 but they've been cut back and cut back and back, 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:03.920 which of course is crazy too, because the more we 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:07.640 invest inside the prisons in helping people to better themselves 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:11.800 and to advance themselves spiritually as you do, or educationally 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.240 or whatever it is, the better chance they have of 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.040 not reoffending, it to becoming productive citizens and paying taxes 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:21.240 and not causing problems on the outside and to that 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:28.200 end Today tomorrow group is going of about thirty correction officials. 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:31.200 My friend Dan Slepion is going with them to tour 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:34.240 prisons in Scandinavia and parts of Europe to see how 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:36.800 they do it there, because there they focus on rehabilitation 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.280 and they do it right. So by and large, so 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.280 hopefully that some of those practices will be brought back here. 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:47.640 But I think it's exciting that there is some progress 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.240 and some momentum, more than any time since I've started 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.520 working on this twenty five years ago for this type 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:54.960 of change. 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:57.560 See, of all the things, the most important thing is 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:04.320 that one who is imprisoned learns to handle this condition 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.440 in a healthy manner within himself or herself. 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:08.760 Please explain. 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:15.480 My work is Essentially, see, it doesn't matter where you are, 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.320 whether you're in New York City or in India or 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:23.440 in Africa. You're a prisoner, you're a politician, you're a musician, 0:15:23.440 --> 0:15:27.720 it doesn't matter who you are. Essentially, every human being 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:34.600 has the right to be joyful and peaceful outside conditions. 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.200 In our lives. What the world throws at us is 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:42.240 not always determined by us, but what we make out 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:45.200 of it within ourselves is entirely ours one hundred percent. 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.840 So to empower people like this, whether they're inside the prison, 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:54.320 outside the prison, because those who are outside the prison 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.360 doesn't mean they're living joyfully. Many of them suffer more 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:11.720 than the prisoners. When I went into the prison in 0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.560 an Aquimeto where I personally worked, after that we trained teachers, 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:17.960 and now in the last twenty three years it's become 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:22.680 a mandatory program in southern Indian prisons. What I saw 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:27.080 was see when you go into the prison, it's a 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:34.080 pretty organized place. Your food comes on the dot, your 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.600 door open, somebody who opens doors for you, she'd said 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:41.560 for you. I'm saying it's a very organized place. A 0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:43.880 lot of people aspire for that in their lives, and 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:49.120 it never happens. The only problem is I've never been 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.840 into these prisons, either in India or in the United States, 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.280 and come out without tears in my eyes, simply because 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:58.800 there is pain in the air. This is how important 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:02.800 freedom is for a human being. There's nothing else. Food 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:04.720 is on time. In fact, people who are living in 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.760 prison are far fitter than those people who are living outside. 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:14.280 They're very physically fit, they're well fed. Everything only thing 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.199 is there's no freedom, and how much it hurts a 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.760 human being is unbelievable. There's simply pain in the air. 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.159 If you just breathe that air, you know, tears well 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:25.960 up in your eyes, not because I think of something 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:30.439 emotional about them, simply the very atmosphere is full of pain. 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.000 This is how significant freedom mets for a human being. 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.520 If you just take away that one thing, how much 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:42.240 pain and how much damage it does to a human 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.840 being in a very profound way is unbelievable. 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.320 Well, and I do want to say in America, of course, 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:53.400 we have you know, conditions in the prisons, in many 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:57.040 prisons that are really terrible. And that does extend to 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.240 the food. Yes, you get three meals a day, but 0:17:59.280 --> 0:18:02.160 the food is could be rotten, it can be it's 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.879 certainly not nutritious, and you know, it is something that 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:11.680 I think there's disease prone, you know, because of the 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.399 quality and the substance that they're being fed. So I 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:19.520 don't want to sugarcoat that, but you are absolutely correct 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:19.800 it is. 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.400 I'm not saying they're getting the best food. I'm saying 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:26.480 regular food. Regular they're never hungry. Food is given to them, 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.479 and they're healthy because they're fit. They kept themselves fit 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.159 inside the prison. I am not trying to elogize a prison. 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.199 I am trying to point out just because freedom is 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:39.359 taken away, how much it hurts a human day. 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:42.080 I think that's a very good point and it's interesting too. 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.280 I'm reading a book now. I'm almost finished with this 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.760 book by Anthony ray Hinton called The Sun Does Shine, 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.359 and it's his story of spending thirty years on death 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:55.920 row in Alabama for a crime he didn't commit, and 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.399 how he was able to escape from his you know, 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.960 taking is his own mind and using it to escape 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:04.359 from this five y eight. 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:07.160 Cell that he was trapped in. 0:19:08.520 --> 0:19:12.200 It's quite extraordinary, and I think that he, like a 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:17.199 lot of people, found some variation of the principles that 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:21.720 you teach on his own because it was the only 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:26.080 way that he could survive this unbelievable ordeal seeing so 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.679 many of the people around him executed, smelling that smell 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:34.639 of death and all the other deprivations of death throw 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:39.480 It's quite remarkable, and to me, I get so much 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:51.360 inspiration and gratitude from being around these extraordinary individuals who 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:57.679 have persevered through these impossible conditions and found, like I 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:03.240 said through necessity or despiration or inspiration or some combination 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:08.639 thereof again some variation of the very things that you 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:11.840 are able to bring inside. And I want to turn 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.600 to that too, because you've done work in prisons in 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:15.639 America as well. 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:17.280 And how did that happen? 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:25.240 When I came to Nashville, because we kind of centered 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:32.160 around Nashville, I visited this old prison from the kind 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:36.159 of colonial times, and they took me into this place 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.280 where where the executions happen. 0:20:41.440 --> 0:20:41.720 Just the. 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.000 Energy that the stones around the stone walls have absorbed 0:20:47.320 --> 0:20:52.080 and still exchued is so terrible. So right there I 0:20:52.160 --> 0:20:53.919 decided we need to go in to the prisons and 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.840 do something. But we didn't get permission in Tennessee, so 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:01.320 we went to Kentucky and then we came to Pennsylvania. 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:06.240 These are two which allowed. But then I found that 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.960 there was a lot of resistance from religious groups and 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:13.120 others for any yoga or anything to come. And they 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.120 openly argued with me, we will put them in prisons 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:18.480 because we want them to suffer. We don't want you 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:23.239 to have them blissed out. There was a lot of 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:26.480 resistance and struggle. So we have not done much in 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:30.480 the last few years in America, but in India it continues. 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:34.199 Yes, I'm glad you brought that up too, because I 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.359 am trying to remember a friend of mine who I 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:41.639 met acquaintance several years ago, had been teaching yoga and 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:46.679 meditation in prisons in America and was so successful in 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:50.119 terms of the results being like what you described in India, 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:54.480 where the violence, the rates of violence inside the prisons plummeted, right, 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:58.560 the infractions of the prisoners, every aspect of it just 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:01.840 was so much better. The inmate on inmate violence, inmate 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:06.119 inmate to guard, vice versa. Everything just was so much better. 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:09.320 Of course, so they canceled the program, right, and it's 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:10.280 really remarkable. 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:10.520 You know. 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.640 There's a case that I'm involved with now, and this 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:19.680 is how crazy our system is in America. In South Dakota, 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.320 where and you brought this to mind, a guy his 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:26.880 last name is Rhymes. He was sentenced to death by 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:30.040 a jury who said that they sentenced him to death 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:33.399 instead of life because he's gay, and they felt that 0:22:33.440 --> 0:22:35.919 sensing him to life in prison would entitle him to 0:22:35.960 --> 0:22:38.919 a life of enjoyment because he would enjoy being in 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:43.119 there in amongst the presence of other men because he's gay. Now, 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:49.400 this is such an outrageous and terrible thing for anyone 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:51.920 to say, and the idea that it's allowed to stand 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:54.240 in this country. It's almost like the jury was committing 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:58.960 a hate crime. So many of us are working now, 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:02.400 including people at the MISS Project, on trying to get 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:10.920 clemency from the governor because it's it's an extreme version 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:13.160 of what you were talking about, the idea that we 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:15.399 sit there and say, well, we don't want there to 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.720 be any joy of any kind or any and you 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:23.560 contrast it with places like Norway, right where in Norway 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:28.040 the guards are trained for two years. My understanding is 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:30.040 that only ten percent of the ones who apply actually 0:23:30.080 --> 0:23:34.200 are accepted. They're trained in psychology, they're trained in conflict resolution, 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:38.240 they're trained in all types of different protocols. 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:42.160 And when people are brought to the. 0:23:42.080 --> 0:23:45.680 Prison, the warden gives a speech where he says something 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:46.960 along the lines. So this is first of all, the 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:51.200 guards sing a song and then and some people listening 0:23:51.200 --> 0:23:52.840 are gonna say, well, this is outraged, this is too much. 0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:54.800 We can't do that, it's too nice. 0:23:54.680 --> 0:23:56.439 Or whatever whatever, But this is the way they do 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:58.840 it over there, and the Warden says, it makes a 0:23:58.880 --> 0:24:01.840 speech and says something like that, I recognize that your people, 0:24:01.920 --> 0:24:03.760 your human beings, like me, and when you come out 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:06.560 you might be my neighbor. Therefore, I want to treat 0:24:06.600 --> 0:24:09.840