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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 1: do know that everything was stacked against me.

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Speaker 3: Everything like everything.

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Speaker 4: This isn't supposed to happen this way.

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Speaker 2: I'm innocent. I know I'm innocent. I know I had

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with this.

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Speaker 1: How is this possible?

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Speaker 3: I grew up trusting the systems. I grew up believing

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Speaker 3: that every human being should do the right thing. And

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Speaker 3: that's why, even though I knew I was dealing with

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Speaker 3: corerough people, I wasn't going to break anyone to get

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Speaker 3: me out of prison because I wouldn't live with the

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Speaker 3: fact that I break my way out of my wife's death.

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Speaker 3: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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Speaker 3: prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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Speaker 2: Our system.

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Speaker 1: Since I've been out ten years, it's come a little ways,

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Speaker 1: but it's still broken.

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Speaker 3: I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

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Speaker 2: This is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 4: Welcome back to wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. Today I

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Speaker 4: have that's me, But today I have an extraordinary treat

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Speaker 4: for me and for you the audience.

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Speaker 2: My guest today is sad Guru. And sad Garu is.

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Speaker 4: An internationally renowned yogi and mystic teacher of meditation, a

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Speaker 4: New York Times bestselling author, and a man who has

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Speaker 4: done fantastic work in prisons all over the world, teaching

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Speaker 4: meditation and enlightenment to people.

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Speaker 2: Who most needed. I think you could say so, sod Guru,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me here.

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Speaker 4: So this is so exciting because the idea of being

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Speaker 4: able to explore this aspect of the mind and the

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Speaker 4: you know, the mind inside the prison and how to

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Speaker 4: transcend these most terrible circumstances, which I've heard you talk

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Speaker 4: about in videos, It's something that I think can help

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Speaker 4: people both on the inside and the outside. Family members

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Speaker 4: as well, but everybody. So I'm really interested in knowing

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Speaker 4: how you how you got started first of all, on

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Speaker 4: this journey, and even more so, how you became interested

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Speaker 4: and involved in taking this practice inside the prison walls.

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Speaker 1: So this is almost twenty seven, twenty eight years ago,

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Speaker 1: I think twenty eight years ago, there was a ladies

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Speaker 1: club in cormetor city where we are located now. They

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Speaker 1: invited me to speak in that ladies club. This is,

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Speaker 1: you know, a group of maybe two hundred very elite

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Speaker 1: women of the town. So I was talking to them

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Speaker 1: and just outside their club building there's a nice tree.

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Speaker 1: We were sitting under the tree and I was speaking

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Speaker 1: to them. Then I saw this big wall which is

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Speaker 1: nearly twenty feet tall wall. I looked at the wall

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Speaker 1: and said, why such a big wall here? And the

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Speaker 1: fantastic thing is none of them knew. Then I just

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Speaker 1: enquired with the volunteers that were around me. They said,

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Speaker 1: this is the prison. It is in the heart of

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Speaker 1: the city and there's a prison. These ladies that club,

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Speaker 1: the you know, one part of their club is touching

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Speaker 1: the wall and they don't know it's a prison. And

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Speaker 1: then I discovered the road, the main road in the

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Speaker 1: city is called jail Road. Yes, then I said, I

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Speaker 1: would like to meet those people who are on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the wall. I would like to do

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Speaker 1: something with them. I would like to see who are they.

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Speaker 1: Then we discovered the superintendent of the prison was somebody

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Speaker 1: who was known to me. Then I tried to put

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Speaker 1: an application saying that I would like to come and

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Speaker 1: do something.

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Speaker 2: So you're breaking into the prison.

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Speaker 1: Yes, breaking into the prison is not easy. It took

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Speaker 1: me over two years to get inside. I did not

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Speaker 1: have the qualifications.

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Speaker 4: And what was your application when you were saying that

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Speaker 4: I want to go inside?

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Speaker 1: Because because I said I would like to do something

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Speaker 1: with his prisoners and see who they are. Then I

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Speaker 1: discovered there were over fourteen hundred prisoners inside. I said,

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Speaker 1: fourteen hundred people, what are they for? It doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: My work is with human beings. It doesn't matter where

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Speaker 1: they are, So let's go. So when I went inside

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Speaker 1: or and I tried to get inside, they put me

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Speaker 1: through some three interviews that I'm fit enough to go

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Speaker 1: to the prison or not. And they've said Seth Grew,

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Speaker 1: don't waste your time here these guys. You just can't

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Speaker 1: do anything with them. Every Sunday some Christian priests comes.

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Speaker 1: All they do is mischief, and Friday, some Islamic guys

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Speaker 1: are coming. No good and another festival days and other things.

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Speaker 1: The Hindu people are coming. It's no good nothing. You

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Speaker 1: can't teach them anything, you can't do anything with them.

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Speaker 1: All they understand, is just beating punishment? This all you

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Speaker 1: don't waste your time here.

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Speaker 4: Well, let me ask you this prison. Was this considered

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Speaker 4: a maximum security prison. It is, and so the people

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Speaker 4: there are mostly in for murder or silent crimes.

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Speaker 1: Nearly nearly, probably six hundred to seven hundred them of

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Speaker 1: them are for murder, but largely long term prisoners. Long

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Speaker 1: term means in India anything over eight years is considered

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Speaker 1: long term prison. So my said, give me a chance,

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Speaker 1: let me just talk to them. It took me a

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Speaker 1: little over two years to convince them that they should

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Speaker 1: let me in. So when we went in, there were

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Speaker 1: twelve words. You know, in each word there is something

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Speaker 1: like one hundred and thirty two hundred and forty. So

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Speaker 1: we picked a ward which had over two hundred prisoners,

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Speaker 1: the largest ward, and this is everybody has come there

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Speaker 1: for life imprisonment. This means they have done either murder

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Speaker 1: or more. So I said, let me do this. So

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Speaker 1: they put full security armed police. I said, take them out.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to harm me anything. Just take them out.

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Speaker 1: It's not a problem. They said, no, we cannot do that. Anyway.

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Speaker 1: There were some policemen. Then I asked them together outside,

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Speaker 1: they all came looking at me. Okay, what is this

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Speaker 1: guy going to do with us? So we just arranged

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Speaker 1: a small game and started playing the game with them.

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Speaker 2: So, okay, so it's you and two hundred.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and fifteen criminals hardened and softened. I don't know

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Speaker 1: all of them are there for murder or more. So

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Speaker 1: we started playing a game and they got so involved

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Speaker 1: like little children. They screamed and yelled, and they played

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Speaker 1: the game full on for about an hour. Then I

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Speaker 1: stopped and then for about half an hour because they

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Speaker 1: gave me only two hours maximum two hours you have

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Speaker 1: to leave the prison. So then I spoke to them

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Speaker 1: for half an hour and told them, see, this is

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Speaker 1: what I wish to do. All of you guys should

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Speaker 1: write to the authority, to the superintendent that you want

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Speaker 1: this program for you. You won't believe when I had

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Speaker 1: to leave at the end of two hours, at least

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Speaker 1: sixty percent of them were all in tears. They're saying,

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Speaker 1: you don't go, you stay with us. So seeing this,

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Speaker 1: then they allowed me to conduct a program. The first

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Speaker 1: program I did it was a ten day thing, two

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Speaker 1: hours every day, ten days. So I sought permission to

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Speaker 1: stay inside the prison. I said, let me stay there

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Speaker 1: ten days with them, so that they feel I'm there

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Speaker 1: really wanting to do something with them, not just for

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Speaker 1: cosmetic purposes. I couldn't get that permission because there were

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Speaker 1: some militants in India they called terrorists, so some of

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Speaker 1: the terrorists were in prison in that prison. They said, no,

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Speaker 1: we can't let you stay there. But every day I

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Speaker 1: went there. My thing was only for two hours, but

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Speaker 1: I went there, served mail to them, participated with them

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Speaker 1: in their break times. I was there. We participated in

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Speaker 1: all activity in the prison, in that ward where these

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Speaker 1: prisoners were there.

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Speaker 4: I want to back up a second. So you would

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Speaker 4: go in and even the first time you said you'd

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Speaker 4: play a game, what kind of a game.

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Speaker 1: We just played simple games. We have certain games like

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Speaker 1: dodgeball and that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 2: Two hundred people. Yeah, that sounds.

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Speaker 1: Insane, rolicking fun we had. So every day in the

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Speaker 1: two hour program ten days, we had about half an

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Speaker 1: hour to forty five minutes was just games. Then we

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Speaker 1: thought them some simple process of yoga and spoke to

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Speaker 1: them a variety of things. The kind of transformation it

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Speaker 1: brought about there. This prison on that day had one

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Speaker 1: hundred and thirty six years of history. It was during

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Speaker 1: the British era that it was set up as a

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Speaker 1: maximum security prison. In these one thirty six years, every day,

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Speaker 1: literally every day, someone was always in the solitary. The

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Speaker 1: solitary in that prison is like a four by four box,

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Speaker 1: four feet by four feet steel box. You can only sit,

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Speaker 1: you can't stand up, so in that they put you

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Speaker 1: for a week ten days like this. But after we

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Speaker 1: did the program, after we did three programs, I think

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Speaker 1: nobody went into the solitary for more than two years.

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Speaker 1: Not a single person entered the solitary. That's the kind

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Speaker 1: of difference it made. And they burst forth into poetry.

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Speaker 1: Most of them are school dropouts or many of them illiterate,

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Speaker 1: but they all burst out into poetry, writing poems. We

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Speaker 1: have over three to four thousand poems which is being

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Speaker 1: released in India as a part of this program. Be

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Speaker 1: called as in a Freedom for the imprisoned.

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Speaker 2: In her freedom for the impression, I must tell you this.

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Speaker 1: There was one guy's name is Shanmogum. I think he's

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Speaker 1: been executed now. He was there for three murders which

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Speaker 1: he committed in the courtroom. He killed three people in

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Speaker 1: the courtroom. Wow, so that is a kind of crime.

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Speaker 1: You can't get away in the courtroom. When you do it,

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Speaker 1: it's considered the worst thing.

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Speaker 4: Well, and it's pretty hard too, yeah, I mean it's

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Speaker 4: that of the judge, I mean.

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Speaker 1: Your judges, the eyewitness.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, you're pretty much done there.

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Speaker 1: So he wrote a poem which you brought the entire

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Speaker 1: prison into tears and just about anybody who reads the poem.

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Speaker 1: He just said he's been in the on the death

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Speaker 1: row for about seven years. By then, every time in

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Speaker 1: the evening, see, daytime is quite okay in the prison.

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Speaker 1: From morning six to evening six, it's fine. Sunset, everybody

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Speaker 1: goes into the cells and the cell door closes. Normally

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Speaker 1: in India it's a eight by five cell. Three people

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Speaker 1: will be there. That is when all kinds of horrors begin.

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Speaker 1: One thing the prison psychologists told us is every day

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Speaker 1: in the night, in their sleep, people are howling like animals.

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Speaker 1: One simple thing that happened with the simple meditation process

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Speaker 1: we brought is people first sharing is their sleeping peacefully.

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Speaker 1: All these sounds and ailings stopped. And this guy poem.

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Speaker 1: Every day when the cell door closes, I thought this

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Speaker 1: was my grave but now this has become my body tree.

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Speaker 1: If the cell door closes, you know, the Bodhi tree

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Speaker 1: were Buddha, God enlightened. When the cell door closes, I

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Speaker 1: close my eyes and I'm in a different world altogether.

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Speaker 1: This has become my body tree. He wrote this poem

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Speaker 1: in Tamil in the local language. So like this there

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Speaker 1: we've seen many, many fantastic transformational stories. See, the law

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Speaker 1: has its ways. I mean, it's not for me to

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Speaker 1: suddenly ask for a change in law or something, because

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Speaker 1: you have to maintain law and order in a country.

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Speaker 1: There are many issues, but no matter where a human

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Speaker 1: being is. Actually everywhere they call it a correction center,

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Speaker 1: but there is no room for correction. In fact, people

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Speaker 1: who go to prison for short stints and come they

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Speaker 1: become really hardcore criminals when they come out. At least

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Speaker 1: that's true in India. So when they go in they

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Speaker 1: may be just pretty criminals, when they come out they

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Speaker 1: become serious level of crime.

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Speaker 4: Right, that's a generalization here. I shouldn't say that, but

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Speaker 4: it does happen because it's logical. And also when we

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Speaker 4: people here come out, they come out with a stigma

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Speaker 4: having been incarcerated. It's harder to get a job, and

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Speaker 4: it's harder, you know, they.

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Speaker 2: If they had what else come out of it?

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Speaker 4: Skills, they may learn criminal skills. But I want to

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Speaker 4: say too, just not to direct your flow here, but

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Speaker 4: today is it particularly an interesting day for you to

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Speaker 4: be here, because as we were discussing before, today is

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Speaker 4: the day when Washington State abolished the death penalty, becoming

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Speaker 4: it's wonderful the twentieth state in America to do so,

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Speaker 4: and hopefully we'll get all fifty because it's preposterous that

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Speaker 4: we send it's disgusting that we as a country still

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Speaker 4: execute people. It's also the eve of and you brought

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Speaker 4: this up. You know, we call it correctional, as you said,

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Speaker 4: but it's just punitive. All we do is punish people.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there are some little programs here and there,

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Speaker 4: but they've been cut back and cut back and back,

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Speaker 4: which of course is crazy too, because the more we

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Speaker 4: invest inside the prisons in helping people to better themselves

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Speaker 4: and to advance themselves spiritually as you do, or educationally

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Speaker 4: or whatever it is, the better chance they have of

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Speaker 4: not reoffending, it to becoming productive citizens and paying taxes

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Speaker 4: and not causing problems on the outside and to that

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Speaker 4: end Today tomorrow group is going of about thirty correction officials.

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Speaker 4: My friend Dan Slepion is going with them to tour

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Speaker 4: prisons in Scandinavia and parts of Europe to see how

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Speaker 4: they do it there, because there they focus on rehabilitation

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Speaker 4: and they do it right. So by and large, so

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Speaker 4: hopefully that some of those practices will be brought back here.

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Speaker 4: But I think it's exciting that there is some progress

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Speaker 4: and some momentum, more than any time since I've started

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Speaker 4: working on this twenty five years ago for this type

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Speaker 4: of change.

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Speaker 1: See, of all the things, the most important thing is

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Speaker 1: that one who is imprisoned learns to handle this condition

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Speaker 1: in a healthy manner within himself or herself.

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Speaker 2: Please explain.

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Speaker 1: My work is Essentially, see, it doesn't matter where you are,

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Speaker 1: whether you're in New York City or in India or

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Speaker 1: in Africa. You're a prisoner, you're a politician, you're a musician,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter who you are. Essentially, every human being

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Speaker 1: has the right to be joyful and peaceful outside conditions.

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Speaker 1: In our lives. What the world throws at us is

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Speaker 1: not always determined by us, but what we make out

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Speaker 1: of it within ourselves is entirely ours one hundred percent.

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Speaker 1: So to empower people like this, whether they're inside the prison,

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Speaker 1: outside the prison, because those who are outside the prison

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're living joyfully. Many of them suffer more

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Speaker 1: than the prisoners. When I went into the prison in

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Speaker 1: an Aquimeto where I personally worked, after that we trained teachers,

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Speaker 1: and now in the last twenty three years it's become

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Speaker 1: a mandatory program in southern Indian prisons. What I saw

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Speaker 1: was see when you go into the prison, it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty organized place. Your food comes on the dot, your

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Speaker 1: door open, somebody who opens doors for you, she'd said

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Speaker 1: for you. I'm saying it's a very organized place. A

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Speaker 1: lot of people aspire for that in their lives, and

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Speaker 1: it never happens. The only problem is I've never been

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Speaker 1: into these prisons, either in India or in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and come out without tears in my eyes, simply because

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Speaker 1: there is pain in the air. This is how important

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Speaker 1: freedom is for a human being. There's nothing else. Food

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Speaker 1: is on time. In fact, people who are living in

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Speaker 1: prison are far fitter than those people who are living outside.

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Speaker 1: They're very physically fit, they're well fed. Everything only thing

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Speaker 1: is there's no freedom, and how much it hurts a

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Speaker 1: human being is unbelievable. There's simply pain in the air.

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Speaker 1: If you just breathe that air, you know, tears well

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Speaker 1: up in your eyes, not because I think of something

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Speaker 1: emotional about them, simply the very atmosphere is full of pain.

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Speaker 1: This is how significant freedom mets for a human being.

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Speaker 1: If you just take away that one thing, how much

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Speaker 1: pain and how much damage it does to a human

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Speaker 1: being in a very profound way is unbelievable.

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Speaker 4: Well, and I do want to say in America, of course,

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Speaker 4: we have you know, conditions in the prisons, in many

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Speaker 4: prisons that are really terrible. And that does extend to

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Speaker 4: the food. Yes, you get three meals a day, but

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Speaker 4: the food is could be rotten, it can be it's

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Speaker 4: certainly not nutritious, and you know, it is something that

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Speaker 4: I think there's disease prone, you know, because of the

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Speaker 4: quality and the substance that they're being fed. So I

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Speaker 4: don't want to sugarcoat that, but you are absolutely correct

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Speaker 4: it is.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying they're getting the best food. I'm saying

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Speaker 1: regular food. Regular they're never hungry. Food is given to them,

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Speaker 1: and they're healthy because they're fit. They kept themselves fit

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Speaker 1: inside the prison. I am not trying to elogize a prison.

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Speaker 1: I am trying to point out just because freedom is

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Speaker 1: taken away, how much it hurts a human day.

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Speaker 4: I think that's a very good point and it's interesting too.

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Speaker 4: I'm reading a book now. I'm almost finished with this

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Speaker 4: book by Anthony ray Hinton called The Sun Does Shine,

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Speaker 4: and it's his story of spending thirty years on death

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Speaker 4: row in Alabama for a crime he didn't commit, and

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Speaker 4: how he was able to escape from his you know,

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Speaker 4: taking is his own mind and using it to escape

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Speaker 4: from this five y eight.

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Speaker 2: Cell that he was trapped in.

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Speaker 4: It's quite extraordinary, and I think that he, like a

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Speaker 4: lot of people, found some variation of the principles that

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Speaker 4: you teach on his own because it was the only

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Speaker 4: way that he could survive this unbelievable ordeal seeing so

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Speaker 4: many of the people around him executed, smelling that smell

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Speaker 4: of death and all the other deprivations of death throw

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Speaker 4: It's quite remarkable, and to me, I get so much

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Speaker 4: inspiration and gratitude from being around these extraordinary individuals who

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Speaker 4: have persevered through these impossible conditions and found, like I

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Speaker 4: said through necessity or despiration or inspiration or some combination

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Speaker 4: thereof again some variation of the very things that you

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Speaker 4: are able to bring inside. And I want to turn

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Speaker 4: to that too, because you've done work in prisons in

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Speaker 4: America as well.

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Speaker 2: And how did that happen?

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Speaker 1: When I came to Nashville, because we kind of centered

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Speaker 1: around Nashville, I visited this old prison from the kind

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Speaker 1: of colonial times, and they took me into this place

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Speaker 1: where where the executions happen.

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Speaker 2: Just the.

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Speaker 1: Energy that the stones around the stone walls have absorbed

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Speaker 1: and still exchued is so terrible. So right there I

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Speaker 1: decided we need to go in to the prisons and

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Speaker 1: do something. But we didn't get permission in Tennessee, so

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Speaker 1: we went to Kentucky and then we came to Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 1: These are two which allowed. But then I found that

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of resistance from religious groups and

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Speaker 1: others for any yoga or anything to come. And they

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Speaker 1: openly argued with me, we will put them in prisons

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Speaker 1: because we want them to suffer. We don't want you

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Speaker 1: to have them blissed out. There was a lot of

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Speaker 1: resistance and struggle. So we have not done much in

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Speaker 1: the last few years in America, but in India it continues.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I'm glad you brought that up too, because I

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Speaker 4: am trying to remember a friend of mine who I

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Speaker 4: met acquaintance several years ago, had been teaching yoga and

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Speaker 4: meditation in prisons in America and was so successful in

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Speaker 4: terms of the results being like what you described in India,

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Speaker 4: where the violence, the rates of violence inside the prisons plummeted, right,

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Speaker 4: the infractions of the prisoners, every aspect of it just

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Speaker 4: was so much better. The inmate on inmate violence, inmate

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Speaker 4: inmate to guard, vice versa. Everything just was so much better.

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Speaker 4: Of course, so they canceled the program, right, and it's

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Speaker 4: really remarkable.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 4: There's a case that I'm involved with now, and this

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Speaker 4: is how crazy our system is in America. In South Dakota,

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Speaker 4: where and you brought this to mind, a guy his

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Speaker 4: last name is Rhymes. He was sentenced to death by

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Speaker 4: a jury who said that they sentenced him to death

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Speaker 4: instead of life because he's gay, and they felt that

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Speaker 4: sensing him to life in prison would entitle him to

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Speaker 4: a life of enjoyment because he would enjoy being in

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Speaker 4: there in amongst the presence of other men because he's gay. Now,

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Speaker 4: this is such an outrageous and terrible thing for anyone

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Speaker 4: to say, and the idea that it's allowed to stand

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Speaker 4: in this country. It's almost like the jury was committing

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Speaker 4: a hate crime. So many of us are working now,

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Speaker 4: including people at the MISS Project, on trying to get

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Speaker 4: clemency from the governor because it's it's an extreme version

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Speaker 4: of what you were talking about, the idea that we

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Speaker 4: sit there and say, well, we don't want there to

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Speaker 4: be any joy of any kind or any and you

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Speaker 4: contrast it with places like Norway, right where in Norway

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Speaker 4: the guards are trained for two years. My understanding is

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Speaker 4: that only ten percent of the ones who apply actually

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Speaker 4: are accepted. They're trained in psychology, they're trained in conflict resolution,

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Speaker 4: they're trained in all types of different protocols.

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Speaker 2: And when people are brought to the.

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Speaker 4: Prison, the warden gives a speech where he says something

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Speaker 4: along the lines. So this is first of all, the

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Speaker 4: guards sing a song and then and some people listening

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Speaker 4: are gonna say, well, this is outraged, this is too much.

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Speaker 2: We can't do that, it's too nice.

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Speaker 4: Or whatever whatever, But this is the way they do

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Speaker 4: it over there, and the Warden says, it makes a

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Speaker 4: speech and says something like that, I recognize that your people,

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Speaker 4: your human beings, like me, and when you come out

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Speaker 4: you might be my neighbor. Therefore, I want to treat

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Speaker 4: you as my equal and treat you, as you know,

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Speaker 4: with dignity, so that when you are done with your sin.

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Speaker 1: The intention of correction is very alive. That's what it means.

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Speaker 4: Yes, over there, it's a very very don In Germany,

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Speaker 4: it's true too where they have the cells have locks,

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Speaker 4: but they lock from the inside. You know, how different

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Speaker 4: is that?

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Speaker 2: Right? What?

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Speaker 4: It's simple change they lock from the inside, so you

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Speaker 4: could have privacy.

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Speaker 1: Huh, that's a home when you lock from inside, it's

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Speaker 1: a home.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you don't want to be there, right, I

414
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Speaker 4: don't want to be there. You don't want to be there,

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Speaker 4: No right minded person wants to be there. But at

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Speaker 4: least again, it provides a certain level of dignity that

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Speaker 4: allows for and it's quite opposite.

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Speaker 1: Form that way, that form that he wrote about every

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Speaker 1: time the cell door closed it felt like my grave

420
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Speaker 1: in that he describes the clang of the boat when

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Speaker 1: the damned door and clang crack they lock it. He

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Speaker 1: always thought it's his debthnel, you know, when he heard

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Speaker 1: the sound that life is over every day. It's just

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Speaker 1: the way somebody locks the door from outside, if you

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Speaker 1: could lock it from inside. It's a world of difference.

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Speaker 2: It's a world of difference.

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Speaker 4: And again, the recidivism rates in these countries are so

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Speaker 4: much lower than ours because partially because of the fact

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Speaker 4: that these people are treated as human beings when they

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Speaker 4: go there and you know here, and of course I

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Speaker 4: do want to touch on this too, and I'm interested

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Speaker 4: in your take on this because in America we treat

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Speaker 4: people with mental illness as pariahs and we lock them

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Speaker 4: up instead of treating them for the syndromes that they

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Speaker 4: suffer from. Now, I'm not saying that if someone's mentally

436
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Speaker 4: ill and they go and kill, you know, people, that

437
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 4: they shouldn't be punished in some way. But and I,

438
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 4: like you, believe in a system of law and order.

439
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,560
Speaker 4: I do think we need a justice system. We need

440
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 4: to be free society, but we also have everyone is

441
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:13,239
Speaker 4: entitled to be safe. So but it is incredible that

442
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 4: we lock people with mental illness up in these prisons

443
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 4: at the numbers that we do. The estimates of the

444
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 4: number of people who suffer from a diagnosable medical you know,

445
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 4: recognizable mental illness that are incarcerated in this country. I

446
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 4: think it's something like thirty five percent of the inmates

447
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 4: in this country have this and so, and those people

448
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 4: are damned to an even more dire faith because of

449
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 4: the fact that they can't obey the rules, right, So

450
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 4: they're constantly being punished on top of their punishment because

451
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 4: they're not mentally able to sometimes understand or go along

452
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 4: with due to whatever it might be, schizophrenia or whatever

453
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 4: they have. And so they end up in the hole,

454
00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 4: or they end up in these you know, the shoe

455
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 4: or even worse can additions, and of course all that

456
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 4: does is exacerbate their mental illness. So what is your

457
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 4: I mean, do you have any insight into this?

458
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,640
Speaker 1: See, the thing is in the defense system of when

459
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 1: people want to lawyers want to defend their clients of

460
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: very terrible crimes that have been committed, the first step

461
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: that they take is mental disorder because it's the easiest

462
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: way to get away. So I think even those who

463
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: make judgments, either a judge or a jury system in America,

464
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: it's very hard for them to really decide for sure

465
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: which is real mental illness which is not? Because every

466
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: one of us, if we are willing, if you push

467
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: ourselves a little bit, we can cross the line of

468
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: sanity and behave in a certain way. A lot of

469
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: people do under all influence of alcohol or a drug.

470
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: They are crazy today, but tomorrow morning they may be fine.

471
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: Having said that, when somebody is diagnos with an illness,

472
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 1: treating him as a normal person and punishing him for

473
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 1: those things is inhuman. But at the same time, the

474
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: system might not have evolved to a place to handle

475
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: such people. Well, there may be no systemic in a

476
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: country like America, you should be able to do it.

477
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: In India, I'm saying we don't have a systemic arrangement

478
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: to be able to handle such people. But in being

479
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: in all these prisons, being in no communication with various

480
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 1: prison authorities, I've not heard of mental illness patients being

481
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: there because usually they will be sent to a mental

482
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: institution rather than keeping them in prison, because prison is

483
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: simply not equipped to handle those things. But we do

484
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,719
Speaker 1: not know how many people are there who have an

485
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: ailment but who have not been properly diagnosed as such

486
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: and being treated as normal with punishments and stuff. It

487
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 1: must be happening, I'm sure.

488
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

489
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 4: In New York City, we don't have facilities for people

490
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 4: in those conditions. We don't have the type of treatment

491
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 4: centers that you would associate with what many people think

492
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 4: is the greatest on one of the greatest cities in

493
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 4: the world.

494
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 2: I do, I grew up here. I love my city.

495
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 4: But it's crazy that we have We have no ability

496
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 4: to house these people in a secure but safe environment

497
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 4: where they can be treated and hopefully get the help

498
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 4: that they need in order to overcome or get some

499
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 4: progress on these conditions that are afflicting them. And so

500
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 4: we put them into the criminal justice system where they

501
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 4: are you know, they're going to be abused in ways

502
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: that that are even worse than people who are mentally fit.

503
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: For these situations. For these individual sufferings, and if it's

504
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: also a systemic situation. One significant aspect is we've made

505
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 1: a huge difference. The reason why it's mandatory now in

506
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: southern area because the difference it made to the people

507
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: and how their behavior has changed, and many of them

508
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: who are known to be a little crazy and doing

509
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: wild things inside the prison, all of them leveled out

510
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: just taking yoga into the prisons can be a big thing.

511
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: But when I say yoga, not the kind of yoga

512
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: you're doing in the studios in New York City. There

513
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: is another dimension of yoga. If we take this dimension

514
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: of yoga into prisons, if the right kind of people

515
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: take it in with at most care, concern and compassion

516
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 1: for the people inside, it can make a phenomenal difference.

517
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: It has made a big, big difference in India. We're

518
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: doing largely in southern India. There are other people who

519
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: are doing in northern part of the India. And without doubt,

520
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: every prison has reported significant changes in the behavioral patterns

521
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: and the amount of violence was there in the prison

522
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: because everything is settled. You know, hands are the first

523
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: things which move in these people.

524
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 4: And how does this How long does this particular? How

525
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 4: many minutes a day do people need to devote to

526
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 4: the practice.

527
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: They just have to devote twenty one minutes a day.

528
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 4: Twenty one minutes and seven days a week. Yes, yes,

529
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 4: And and the change is.

530
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 1: Sax days a week, just every day, every day that

531
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: you can't carry seven days. There's too much of a

532
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: burden to caddy.

533
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 2: I agree.

534
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 4: When I heard myself say that. I said, well, it

535
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 4: sounds like a lot that you said every day. I

536
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 4: was like, well that I could do. It's like it's

537
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 4: like aa one day at a time, right, So.

538
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: Never days come in bunches at you. It only comes

539
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: one at a time. Yeah, that's good, isn't It's such

540
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: a wonderful grace that creation never throws bunches of days

541
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: at you. Suppose it came like a bunch of grapes,

542
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: twenty five days came at you at a time, What

543
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: would you do.

544
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 4: Especially if it's like Wednesday, Thursday, and Monday at the

545
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 4: same time, or Sunday and Tuesday and Friday would be

546
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 4: like so confusing, you know what I mean, nobody would

547
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 4: know what to do. Then we'd have a metaphysical problem

548
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 4: as well. So how can we full time in America?

549
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: Now? Not most of the time.

550
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 1: No, I have teams of people here, volunteers.

551
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 4: So we need to figure out a way to work

552
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 4: together to bring this teaching inside more prisons here and

553
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 4: see if we can.

554
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: You know, I think this would work much better on

555
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: East Coast and West coast. But most of the work

556
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: that we tried to do, we did it in the

557
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: Midwest and the levels of resistance. See the I think

558
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: when we attempted this also about eight ten years ago.

559
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: From then to now, I think the opinion of what

560
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: yoga is has changed dramatically. In America. People thought this

561
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: is some religious practice from India. Now they understand it

562
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: is the signs of well being. So I think that

563
00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: understanding has seeped into the society quite well. Now. Should

564
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: be much easier to do it now than when we

565
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: attempted to do it here.

566
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean, I would love to see if

567
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 4: we can work on it in New York State. You know,

568
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 4: there are But the good news is there are. As

569
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 4: much as there's a lot of people in positions of

570
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 4: power who are maybe closed minded, there are also a

571
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 4: lot of people who are open minded and who want

572
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,000
Speaker 4: to improve the conditions. And it's better for everyone when

573
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 4: we're able to do that. It's better for I think

574
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 4: everyone in that ecosystem of the prison, not just the inmates.

575
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 1: Even the closed minded people when they're very happy, they

576
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: open their minds a little bit. Yeah, so that is

577
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: my thing. People, they were amazed, So, how is it

578
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: these criminals they're all behaving so well with you, They're

579
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: so happy with you. I said, this is all it is.

580
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 1: If you keep a human being happy, he's a wonderful

581
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: guy always. If you're don't happy, he could be ready.

582
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: That's different. That's true with everybody, isn't it?

583
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 2: So twenty one minutes a day not bad.

584
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: It's a way to put it very simply, to put

585
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 1: it technically, it's like this. So all human experience has

586
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,800
Speaker 1: a chemical basis to it. What you call is stress,

587
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: what you calls anxiety, what you call as tranquility, misery, joy, agony, ecstasy.

588
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: Everything has a chemical basis to it within the system. Now,

589
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: don't think about other chemicals in New York City. I'm

590
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: talking about the chemistry in the body. So every human

591
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 1: experience has a chemical basis to it. Now, if you

592
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 1: create a chemistry of blissfulness, you are blissful by your

593
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: own nature. This is like a chemical soup. You are

594
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: a chemical soup, actually a very complex chemical soup. The

595
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,399
Speaker 1: question is only are you a great, super or lousy soup.

596
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: So this is just about teaching people how to make

597
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 1: a great soup out of yourself, that it tastes really

598
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 1: wonderful from within. And when you're feeling wonderful, you're naturally

599
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: wonderful to everything around you.

600
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 4: And how can people? So people are listening now, right,

601
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 4: I'm sure they're wondering, how can I get involved with this?

602
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 4: How can I myself? I'm not in prison, I'm out

603
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 4: bad about doing whatever I'm doing. A lot of people

604
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 4: are listening in their cars.

605
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: Those who are in prison, not by the government but

606
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: by their own nature.

607
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 4: But this practice, this magical twenty and this is like

608
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 4: a tease to people. Right, they're listening now, they're going,

609
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 4: where's this twenty one minutes? How do I find these twenty.

610
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: What do I do?

611
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 1: It's called inner engineering? They must look it up. Inner engineering, Yes,

612
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 1: inner engineering.

613
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 4: And there's YouTube videos and things so I can learn,

614
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 4: because I want to learn myself.

615
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 2: Now.

616
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: You know there's even appropriatory online program uh huh.

617
00:35:57,760 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 2: And you can just pull it up and.

618
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 4: Start doing it right now, Yes, they can. I can

619
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 4: envision people now driving to work and pulling over on

620
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 4: the side of the road.

621
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: Of people across the world have done it. We are

622
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: an organization which is completely run by volunteers. We have

623
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: about four forty six hundred full time volunteers and over

624
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: nine million part time volunteers. It's all done by them.

625
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 4: Well, I mean you might have nine million and one

626
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 4: by the time we finished with this podcast, right, So

627
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 4: it's www dot inter engineering dot com. Www dot inter

628
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 4: engineering dot com. And I want to also say, I mean,

629
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 4: I've had the privilege of getting to know so many

630
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 4: people who are either still on inside prison like y

631
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 4: Ensuring who is.

632
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,919
Speaker 1: Those people that you have helped to come out, those

633
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: who are wrongly incarcerated, and now you help them to

634
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: come out, we would be privileged to conduct a special

635
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: program for them if they're in one place somewhere.

636
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: Okay, fantastic, We're going to know what we're going to do.

637
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 4: We'll organize that for the next Innocent Network conference, where

638
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 4: we're going to have approximately two hundred people who are

639
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 4: wrongfully convicted all gathering together.

640
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 1: We will do the program. We'll offer the program at

641
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,680
Speaker 1: our cost. We will whatever is needed for those people.

642
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 4: That will be wonderful and much appreciate, and we're going

643
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 4: to make that happen. But I was going to say

644
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 4: too that I've had the privilege of getting to know

645
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 4: some extraordinary people like Sunny Jacobs, who I was talking

646
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 4: to you about before, who was sentenced to death, who

647
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 4: taught herself these practices from things she remembered seeing on TV.

648
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 4: And this was in the seventies when she was convicted

649
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 4: late seventies, early eighties, and who got her, you know,

650
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 4: who managed to maintain her sanity in her years in

651
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 4: isolation on death row by using some similar techniques practices.

652
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 4: And then there's a guy who I always think about him,

653
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 4: Yen Surring, who's still in after thirty one years in Virginia,

654
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 4: who is a meditation practitioner and a tai chi master,

655
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 4: and I know he's teaching others in the in the

656
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 4: prison that he's in Virginia some of these practices and

657
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 4: writing books about it and other things like that. So

658
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 4: you know it's out there and it's already percolating, and

659
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 4: you know it's helping people, but it needs to be

660
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 4: done on a much more organized and.

661
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: More organized scale. Scale is important if you want to

662
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 1: see the difference.

663
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 2: That's the word I was looking for. Scale.

664
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 4: So I would love to see if we can start.

665
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 4: I mean, for instance, I think New York State is

666
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 4: a good place to start. We have some very good

667
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 4: people in positions of great authority inside the correction system

668
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 4: who I think would be very open minded to this

669
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 4: and I have a prison in mind right now, or

670
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 4: my friend JJ Velasquez John A. Trivelasquez, who's been on

671
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 4: the show, it's still locked up in sing Sing and

672
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 4: I think we're going to let's explore and see if

673
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 4: we can bring this practice inside there. They do a

674
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 4: lot of wonderful things their voices from within and other

675
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 4: programs that are that are progressive, I would say, but

676
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 4: this would be I mean, there's so many good things

677
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 4: that can come out of you being here and starting

678
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 4: this process.

679
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 2: Now.

680
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 4: Now, it's interesting because you're such a such an interesting

681
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 4: and inspirational man, and yet you are a victim of

682
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 4: the same affliction as I am, which is called golf.

683
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 4: So why do you suffer.

684
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: I don't suffer that as an infliction. It's just that

685
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 1: I used to play a variety of games. I played

686
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: a lot of field hockey when I was young. I

687
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 1: played soccer, being in India, played cricket. I was when

688
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: I was in school. I was in some twelve disciplines

689
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: of games. That's all I did, just sport most of

690
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: the time. But about seven eight years ago, I was

691
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: playing soccer with the kids and I tore my a

692
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 1: cl and my left knee cartilage. So after that injury,

693
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 1: I was just sitting. I had a event and I

694
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 1: was sitting at a dinner table and somebody brought one

695
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: brand new tailor made golf and they said, sad, grow,

696
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: it's time you play golf. You're too old for the

697
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: other games. Time it's time you understand this. The next day,

698
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: all packed up my knee, I went to the golf course,

699
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: straight onto the course. I've never been to a driving

700
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: range till now. I just went straight, straight on the

701
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 1: course and I hit the ball. It went straight the

702
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: amazing I said, what's a big problem. It's a bloody

703
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: sitting ball. Nice not moving, He's not moving. It's a

704
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: sitting ball. Any other game I played, the ball was

705
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: coming at me at different angles, different velocities, different spins.

706
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: Here it's sitting. What's a big deal about hitting it?

707
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 1: So I never took a lesson, I never been on

708
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: a range. Now I'm playing for a handicup of nine ten.

709
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: Not bad, pretty amazing.

710
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 4: You'd like going to be the successor to Tiger Woods

711
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 4: or something like that.

712
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 2: We're going to get you on the tour. It's going

713
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 2: to be amazing.

714
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 4: Self taught and everything else. So and I think we

715
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 4: may we may have to go out and hit some

716
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 4: balls together tomorrow. I think the weather is going to cooperate.

717
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 4: So that's the plan, and I'm excited about that. We'll

718
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 4: with the ball will sit there and wait for us,

719
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 4: and we will go out there and address it problem.

720
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: I will never go anywhere. It's hits and weights.

721
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it doesn't know who we are either until

722
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: we hit it.

723
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 4: And it is amazing because when people ask me about

724
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 4: golf and they say, we're getting way off topic here,

725
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 4: But people who don't play golf, they ask me, why

726
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 4: why do you do?

727
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:21,479
Speaker 2: This?

728
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 4: Is waste a time? Four hours just that the other

729
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 4: what First of all, you're out there in nature.

730
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: It's beautiful.

731
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 4: It's grass and water and trees and birds and air

732
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 4: and whatever, which is very nice, you know, nice day whatever.

733
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 4: With friends, it's social. But moreover, on those rare occasions

734
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 4: when you actually hit a golf ball properly and you

735
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 4: can the physics are the same in golf as other

736
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 4: sports with balls. Right when you hit one side of

737
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 4: the ball, it compresses and then that energy has to

738
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 4: go somewhere, so it explodes out the other side of

739
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 4: the ball and then the ball flies and on that

740
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 4: rare occasion when I have had the privilege of hitting

741
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 4: it properly, you can actually feel that compression and it

742
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,720
Speaker 4: goes through the ball to the club, into your hands,

743
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:02,319
Speaker 4: and through your body into your soul and connects you

744
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,359
Speaker 4: to the center of the universe in a way. That

745
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 4: is that's my that's my definition. I don't know it does.

746
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 4: Like I said, it happens maybe once every few rounds,

747
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 4: but that shot is what I live for when I'm

748
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 4: out there. You know, it's just such a great, amazing feeling.

749
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,760
Speaker 4: And then unlike other sports, you don't have to run,

750
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 4: Nobody tackles you, nobody's.

751
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: Saying to take your ball left.

752
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 4: You just go and walk and look and catch up

753
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 4: with the ball and think a little bit.

754
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 2: What kind of shot. And it's a very nice little breeze.

755
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 4: It's nice, nice nace. So hopefully tomorrow will have that experience.

756
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: I can't guarantee it, but we'll see what.

757
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: It freaks people, mainly because they got nobody to blame,

758
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: but the ball that went into the lake, they know

759
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: it's them.

760
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: That's true.

761
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: That's what you see people freaking because they know if

762
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: it's any other game, you can say the other guy

763
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,399
Speaker 1: did it here. There is nobody else when the ball

764
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: lands in the lake, you know, it's just you. That's

765
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,760
Speaker 1: what makes them make people go totally crazy.

766
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 4: So there's a strong element of personal responsibilities which you're

767
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 4: out there, which I can see that. So, Saguru, before

768
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 4: we close, I wanted to do the same thing I

769
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,919
Speaker 4: do when i'm every more or less every episode, which

770
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 4: is to ask my guest if I can just turn

771
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 4: the microphone my microphone off and thank you again for

772
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 4: being here and sharing your thoughts and your experience and

773
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 4: your wisdom with me and with the audience, and then

774
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 4: just turn it over to you for any other ideas

775
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 4: that you would like to share.

776
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 1: So this is something everyone should understand. That everybody is

777
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: some kind of a prisoner of their own making, some

778
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: unfortunately by the state, but rest by themselves. When I

779
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: say prisoner, people have limited themselves in some way. They've

780
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: drawn their own by boundaries. The boundaries may be of gender, race,

781
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: or religion, or ethnicity or nationality. We've drawn boundaries that

782
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: we cannot cross in our own minds, which is the

783
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 1: basis of so much of suffering that's happening within human beings.

784
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: So we need to understand this, as there is a

785
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,759
Speaker 1: science and technology for external well being. When I say

786
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 1: science and technology for external well being, if you just

787
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: look back and see what is the level of comfort

788
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 1: and convenience that people enjoyed one hundred years ago, and

789
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: what is the level of comfort and convenience we are

790
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 1: enjoying today, it's just unbelievable. No generation ever knew these

791
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: kinds of comforts and conveniences, so we should be the

792
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: most joyful generation. But such a thing has not happened

793
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: simply because we've fixed the outside too much, done nothing

794
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: about our interiority. So as there is a science and

795
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: technology for external well being, there is a whole science

796
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: and technology for inner well being. You don't have to

797
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: believe anything, you don't have to belong to any group,

798
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: if you just learn a few things about how to

799
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,280
Speaker 1: manage your body, how to manage your thought process, your emotion,

800
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: and your energies. If these four dimensions your body, mind, emotion,

801
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 1: and energy take instructions from you, you will live healthy,

802
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,840
Speaker 1: you will live blissed out, and you will live a

803
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: powerfully intense life. This is possible for every human being

804
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 1: when it comes to the outside action, not to human

805
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: beings are equal. What we can do with our body,

806
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: what we can do with our mind. No, to human

807
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: beings are equal, but when it comes to the inner dimension,

808
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: all of us are equally capable. Such a thing has

809
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,959
Speaker 1: not happened to most people simply because they never paid

810
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: attention to what is within. They thought, by fixing the outside,

811
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: everything will be okay. You see the hammer and banging,

812
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: because they think by fixing the outside, everything is going

813
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: to be okay. We have more comfort and convenience than

814
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 1: any generation ever had in the history of humanity. We

815
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: are the most comfortable generation ever. But we are almost complaining,

816
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 1: like neurotic complaint level, simply because we have not done

817
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: anything about the inner nature of who we are. So

818
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: what we are referring to us in engineering is this possibility.

819
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,239
Speaker 1: This is not only for people who are in some

820
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: state of suffering or imprisoned or whatever. First and foremost

821
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: thing is people in positions of responsibility and power must

822
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: get this because if they don't break their limitations within themselves,

823
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: though they don't erase the boundaries of their individuality, they

824
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: cannot change the situation. They cannot bring about a new possibility.

825
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: You have heard the word yoga. Of course, the word

826
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: yoga means union. The word yoga does not mean twisting

827
00:46:55,560 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: and turning. Yoga means union. Union means there is you

828
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,800
Speaker 1: and the universe right now. If you look at individual

829
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: human beings, their life is like it is you versus

830
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: the universe. You versus universe is a stupid competition to

831
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: get into the Yoga means consciously you erase the boundaries

832
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 1: of your individuality. Where there is no you and the universe.

833
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: You are a part of the universe in your living experience,

834
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: not as an idea, not as an intellectual process, not

835
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: as an emotional process, but as a living experience. Like

836
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: you experience the ten fingers of your hand, you experience

837
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: all life around you. If a human being is touched

838
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,120
Speaker 1: by this experience, even for a moment, the very way

839
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: you perceive, experience, and express your life alters dramatically, And

840
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: that is what needs to happen. We're just doing cosmetic

841
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: changes to human beings by teaching them morality, ethics, small

842
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: changes in attitudes. This is not good enough. Only when

843
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 1: you experience the other as myself, everything about you changes.

844
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,760
Speaker 1: This is what yoga means. This is what engineering means.

845
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: In a way.

846
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 4: On that note, I want to thank you again for.

847
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 1: In whatever way we can be useful for these people

848
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: who have been unjustly punished by a society. We will

849
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: do our best. Please call upon us whenever we needed

850
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: Thank you.

851
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 4: I will be doing so. And thank you for that

852
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 4: very kind and generous offer.

853
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: And also get ready to be beaten in the golf

854
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 1: game tomorrow.

855
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 4: Oh boy, I thought we are one and one is

856
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 4: two and the other one is together and we're gonna

857
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 4: We're gonna be one with the universe. So okay, Well,

858
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,720
Speaker 4: it's good to know that that doesn't That doesn't extend

859
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 4: all the way to the golf course. It stops at

860
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 4: the entrance to the club. So anyway, well, this has

861
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 4: been a real treat for me.

862
00:48:58,719 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: Don't forget to.

863
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 4: Give us a fit tastic review wherever you get your podcasts.

864
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: It really helps.

865
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 4: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and

866
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 4: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

867
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 4: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

868
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 4: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

869
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,800
Speaker 4: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

870
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 4: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

871
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 4: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

872
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 4: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

873
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 4: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

874
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 4: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

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Speaker 4: with Signal Company Number one