1 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, George didn't say a word. He felt quite trembly. 2 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: He knew something tremendous had taken place that morning. For 3 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: a few brief moments, he had touched with the very 4 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: tips of his fingers the edge of a magic world. 5 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: That's from George's Marvelous Medicine by the author Rolled Doll. Hi, 6 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,560 Speaker 1: my name is Ben, my name is Noll. And what 7 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: a weaver of dreams that Roll Doll was. Yes, if 8 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: you're like millions of children in the United States, the 9 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: UK and beyond, then you grew up reading books by 10 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: Rolled Doll, stuff like not just George's marvel Medicine, but 11 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Yeah, George is a deep 12 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: cut for me. Um, I've never read that one. My 13 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: favorites growing up were Matilda, Um The Chocolate Factory books, 14 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: including the Great Glass Elevator, which people kind of seem 15 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: to forget about. They go, they go up into space 16 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: and there's their space aliens and stuff. Um. The Witches 17 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: was super creepy and uh and the movie The Witches 18 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: movie really freaked me out. Fantastic. They pull their faces 19 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: off and stuff, and they all have wigs and he's 20 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: a mouse it's no, it's fun. It's fun movie, but 21 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: definitely um back when they made movies for kids that 22 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: gave kids nightmares. Yeah, And in the course of research 23 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: for today's episode, one of the things I discovered is 24 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 1: that there's this danger in young adult fiction without all 25 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 1: of the trappings of banality you find in so much 26 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: grown up adult, full adult fiction, you know, and we 27 00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: see stuff that's so much more honest, visceral and candidly frightening. 28 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: Rule Doll wrote some pretty dark stuff. Uh. And it's 29 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: easy I think for maybe someone who just saw the 30 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: newest adaptation of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, right, I 31 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: think it's easy for them to say, oh, this is 32 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: just sort of kookie, but as most of us know, 33 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: the original one is frightening. Especially there's no way of knowing. 34 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: In fact, Marilyn Manson sort did a did a redo 35 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: of that on one of his early records, UM, showing 36 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: how it kind of really worked on that absurdly creepy, 37 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: dark level. Um. But yeah, Doll, I kind of look 38 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: at him is almost like a Dickens type figure in 39 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: terms of the characters and the absurdity and some of 40 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: the satire that he did, but it was in fact 41 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: for kids. And today we have, you know, this genre 42 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: of young adult fiction that tries to be a little 43 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: bit more um, dark and edgy. But these books were 44 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: written for children, right, Yeah, this isn't stuff like you know. 45 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 1: Edward Gorey, for instance, has a child's book formats, but 46 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: is pretty much clearly for adults. Roaldall was writing for children, 47 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: but he was doing much much more than that. And 48 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: the true life story of Roald Dahl is as interesting 49 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: and strange, if not more interesting and strange, then some 50 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: of the fictional stories he wrote, because it turned out 51 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: that he lived during one of the most important, dangerous, magnificent, 52 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: storied times in modern history, absolutely right in the thick 53 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: of World War Two. And Doll himself even described the 54 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: mission of Churchill and the British government and the Royal 55 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: Air Force which he was a part of, as saving 56 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: the world. I mean, he really looked at it that way, 57 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: and that's not too far from the true. And at 58 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: the time, um, the United States was not about that war. 59 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: We were in a very isolationist period. Um. Guys like 60 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: Charles Lindberg really pushed for this America first ideology. U 61 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: ms that sound familiar um, but yeah, it was a 62 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: big deal to get the United States on board the 63 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 1: war effort to help fight the Nazis in what Doll 64 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: himself described as a battle against like good and evil 65 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: in the life or death situation that could literally result 66 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: in the end of the world as it was known 67 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: at that time. And so in today's episode, we're exploring 68 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating things about Rule Doll that 69 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: you might not know, which is that he was not 70 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: just a fight race. He was not just a military man. 71 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: It was not just a fantastically prolific children's author. He 72 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: was a spy, not only a spy, like a super spy, 73 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 1: like the spy. Totally. Yes, So let's give just a 74 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 1: little bit of his background to get to the juicy 75 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: once top secret stuff. Oh and by the way, shout 76 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: out to our super producer for today, Ramsey Junt. Thanks 77 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: for coming. Ramsey much appreciated, saving the day, saving the day, 78 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: saving the show. So Casey is out with the flu 79 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: and we wish him a quick convalescence. Yes, yes, uh so, 80 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: please feel free to write to Ramsey and Casey as 81 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,599 Speaker 1: well as us if you would like Roll Doll though 82 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: Roll Doll here's the thing. Born in September of nineteen sixteen, 83 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: and he lived until nineteen nineties, so he he had 84 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: a full life. And he's one of those guys know 85 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: that when I read the biography or something, I feel 86 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: like I just haven't done anything. I'm like, what a jury? 87 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: I know? Right, It's like, hey, I read, uh, I 88 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: read a lot of books, I guess, but I I 89 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: haven't helped in Jannier clandestine geopolitics, right, I haven't shot 90 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: people out of the sky yet. So Ruled was born 91 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: in Wales of Norwegian extract. His parents were both from Norway, 92 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: and he was named after the Norwegian explorer that we've 93 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: mentioned in previous episodes here Ruled Amondson. So that's r. 94 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: O A L D. Actually his first language was Norwegian, 95 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: which was startling to to think of, you know, and 96 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 1: like many kids, he went to a boarding school and 97 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,000 Speaker 1: some of the some of the experiences he had, they're 98 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: definitely informed the way he approaches authority figures in his books. 99 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: And there's actually a book he wrote, I think his 100 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: only work of nonfiction as as in his later career, 101 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: called Boy, where he talks about growing up and he 102 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: talks about some really horrible experiences he had at that 103 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: boarding school, one of which included um being caned by 104 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: the headmaster or by some high official until he was 105 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: bloody Yeah, Headmaster Geoffrey Fisher. And you're correct, boy. Tales 106 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: of Childhood was his almost an expose, you know, but 107 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: so far in the past, you'll always hear that thing. Oh, 108 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: it was a different time. That's how they disciplined them. 109 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: But luckily for us and luckily for young readers around 110 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: the world, he did survive that horrific boarding school experience, 111 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: and in nineteen thirty four, when he finished school, he 112 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: crossed the Atlantic on the RMS Nova Scotia and highted 113 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: through Newfoundland and eventually he got a job. Yeah. That 114 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,239 Speaker 1: was in September of nineteen thirty nine when he started 115 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: working for the Shell Oil Company in East Africa. Um. 116 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: And it was at this time when England declared war 117 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: on Germany, and like many uh, you know, strapping youths 118 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,559 Speaker 1: his age, he decided to heed the call of war 119 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: and go join his compatriots and serve his country. So 120 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: he drove from Dare S salam Um to Nirobi and 121 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: there was a Royal Air Force headquarters there and um 122 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,239 Speaker 1: that is where he signed up to become a fighter pilot. 123 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: And just want to say up front, some of this 124 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: information we got from a fantastic book called The Irregulars 125 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: Roll Doll in the British Spy Ring in wartime Washington, 126 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: which was written by a journalist American journalist by the 127 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: name of Janette Connent. Yes, it's a fantastic book. It's 128 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,719 Speaker 1: actually a fairly recent book too, and we can't recommend 129 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 1: it enough. It's the kind of thing that we would 130 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: read for fun, which is always a beautiful thing to say. 131 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: But one thing that is definitely not beautiful would be 132 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: the reality of life as an aircraftman in World War Two, 133 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: especially his time. He was accepted, as Null said in 134 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: Nairoubi for flight training with sixteen other men, but only 135 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: four of those, counting Rule Doll, would survive the war. 136 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: And it's interesting because they were so desperate for pilots 137 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: that even at six ft six uh quite lanky bean 138 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: pole of a man um he was accepted and in 139 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: in the Irregulars um it's described as he had to 140 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: quote curl up into a fetal position with his knees 141 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: tucked tightly under his chin in order to sit in 142 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: the cockpit and his head stuck out above the windshield 143 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: like some kind of cartoon character. But because the pilots 144 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,839 Speaker 1: were so in demand, um, he was accepted. And then 145 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: he trained very quickly, I think two months doing test 146 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: flights Shake and Kenya exactly. And then next thing you know, 147 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: he is thrust into the fray, right, uh, flying an 148 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: obsolete crap gloucestered Gladiator, the last biplane fighter used by 149 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: the Royal Air Force ever. And if you have ever 150 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 1: flown in a biplane, uh, it's a it's a fantastic 151 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: experience and it's terrifying to imagine having to conduct any 152 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: sort of mission of war in one of those things. 153 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: He almost died, as it turns out, right when he 154 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: again with this obsolete technology and we're talking obsoletely even 155 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen thirties. Uh, he almost died because 156 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: he was flying and was low on fuel and he 157 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: crashed landed in the desert in Egypt, and was able 158 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 1: to pull himself from the wreckage, from that fetal position, 159 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: from the wreckage and get far enough away quickly enough 160 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: to avoid the subsequent explosion and the hail of machine 161 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,559 Speaker 1: gun fire that was set off by that blaze. Can 162 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: you imagine, just like trudging through I think he was 163 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: picked up eventually by a patrol and rescued. And this 164 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: dodging of a conflagration of machine gun fires especially miraculous 165 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,119 Speaker 1: we consider the piss poor condition he was in immediately. 166 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: His skull was fractured, his nose was smashed. Most importantly, 167 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: he was temporarily blind, so he had no idea what 168 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: was going on, and he remained blind for some time. Actually, 169 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: his face was reconstructed by a plastic surgeon, and you know, 170 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: he sustained spinal damage which caused him significant pain that 171 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: would endure for the rest of his life. Yeah, And 172 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: as it turned out, the Royal Air Force made an 173 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: inquiry into the crash, and they learned that the place 174 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: he had been told to go it was the wrong place. 175 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: It wasn't even supposed to be flying that way. Can 176 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: you imagine, just just like with the technology they had 177 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: at the time, managing all that, sending these you know, 178 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: squads and keeping things secret and having pet people end 179 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: up in the right place with these obsolete aircraft, I mean, 180 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: I think more people would be crashing in the desert 181 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: in this situation. You know, given the circumstances. That's a 182 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: really good point. Too. Fast forward to let's say nineteen 183 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: forty one or so. Uh, he finally gets out of 184 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: the hospital from this crash, and again because of that desperation, 185 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: he's back in the air. Yeah he is. He is 186 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: rated fully fit for flying duties, although we will find 187 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: out later that's not exactly the case unfortunately. So what 188 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: happens next, well, next he is sent on what basically 189 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: amounted to a suicide mission. The Italians had German reinforcements 190 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: and the British were outnumbered in protecting Greece. Dall was 191 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: sent as part of the eighties squadron to basically protect 192 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,040 Speaker 1: the island of Greece, and that was only one of 193 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 1: two R A F squadrons to cover this entire region, 194 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: and they were severely outnumbered. Severely outnumbered is a great 195 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: way to put it. His first aerial combat occurs in 196 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: the same year in April, and he attacks uh six 197 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: other planes and once uh they're junkers JU eight eight. 198 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: He these are bombers, right, He manages German planes, yeah, 199 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: German plans. He manages to shoot one down and later 200 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: the I think that next day it was like the 201 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: fifte and the sixteenth. So he shot down one plane 202 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: one day and another plane the day after, which does 203 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: that make him of fighting ace? Ye? No by my standards, 204 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: sure yea. By our standards. I'm not sure what the 205 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:54,319 Speaker 1: qualification for a status was, but Uh, certainly a badass, right, 206 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: and his career as an airman continues. He is in 207 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: a time him and in a position that is notoriously dangerous. Right, 208 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: he is not only surviving, but arguably he's thriving. Yeah, 209 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: it's pretty insane. In that campaign which ultimately the Germans 210 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: totally ousted the Brits from Greece, and one the day, 211 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: around thirteen thousand British fighter pilots were killed, wounded or imprisoned, 212 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: and as the Germans were advancing on Athens, Doll was 213 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: evacuated along with this folks to Egypt. Uh and the 214 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: squadron got back together. They put the band back together 215 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: in Haifa. From Haifa, he continued to fly, but in 216 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: June he began to get the worst most stabilitating headaches 217 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: you could imagine, like beyond migraines, to the point where 218 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 1: he actually blacked out a few times during fly Uh, 219 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: and then he got checked out and the medics told 220 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: him it was probably because of altitude or like geez, 221 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: gravitational effects UM. But it turned out that was not 222 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: the case and it was just to holdover from that 223 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: head injury he got UM during that fateful crash back 224 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: in Egypt, his first flight UM. So he was discharged honorably, Yes, 225 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: it was honorably discharged. He was originally hoping that as 226 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: he as he recovered, he would be able to one 227 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: day in the future become an instructor for newer pilots, 228 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: newer air serviceman. But then something happened, A plot twist occurred. 229 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: He had a meeting at a club with a very 230 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: influential figure named Major Harold Balfour, who was serving as 231 00:15:54,920 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: the Under Secretary of State for Air. Balfour was impressed. 232 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: It was like, this guy is walking the walk, he's 233 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: a fighter race. At least Balford thought he was nice. Right, 234 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 1: So Balfour appoints Doll, who was still a young cat 235 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: by the way at this time, is right, what are 236 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: we doing with our lives? We're doing this, I guess, yeah, 237 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: well you know we are. Uh So bal for gets 238 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: to do all a position as Assistant Air attache at 239 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: the British Embassy in d C. And this launches another 240 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: series of travels and incredibly important meetings. Initially, Doll is 241 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: amazed by all the luxuries in North America, but ten 242 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: days in almost two weeks in uh, he hates it. 243 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: He thinks his job is pointless. He doesn't understand like 244 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: what he's doing. And while he's it was meant to 245 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: be like a public relations kind of a position, right, 246 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: and he wasn't feeling it at all. He didn't want 247 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: to do in the first place. I mean, when Val 248 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: four basically insisted that this is the job for you, um, 249 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: Dall is quoted as saying, oh no, sir, please sir, 250 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: anything but that, sir. But Balfour was like, nope, and 251 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: he made it in order and said, according to the irregulars, 252 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 1: that it was jolly important. Yes, he saw maybe through 253 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: just the way Dall kind of carried himself. He was 254 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 1: reported to be quite dashing and good at talking to 255 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: people and very ingratiating or whatever, so maybe you know 256 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: he saw him. Okay, well you can't fly. You were 257 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: a good soldier, but now I think we can use 258 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: you in America. Yes, and so Dall kept his stiff 259 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 1: upper lip, sucked it in and as as we say, 260 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: he crossed the Atlantic and he hated it. There's a 261 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: quote that there's a quote we found this pretty funny. 262 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,399 Speaker 1: He notes how priorities had shifted. He said, I'd just 263 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: come from the war. People were getting killed. I had 264 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: been flying around and seeing horrible things. Now almost instantly 265 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 1: I found myself in the middle of a pre war 266 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: cocktail party in America. Not to mention that back in London, 267 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: I mean they were getting bombed right by the Nazis, 268 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: you know. It was. There was even a period where 269 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: Dall lost track of his family, you know, when he 270 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: was away and he was told, well, they probably got bombed, 271 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: you know, and he did eventually find them. But he 272 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: came from you know, this experience of everything is just 273 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: bleak and uh fallen, crumbling infrastructure. To being in d C, 274 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 1: where they had not yet declared war on the Japanese, 275 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, in Pearl Harbor is what brought them into 276 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: the fight. Um. But like you said earlier, there was 277 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: this isolationist thing and we're like, well, we're here in 278 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: d C, you know, living it up with the swells. 279 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: Can you imagine you're someone saying, so ruled Doll, you're 280 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: from England. How's your family? And he's like, I don't know, 281 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,719 Speaker 1: they might be dead. Well, have you tried the shrimp? 282 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 1: It's it's a really disconcerting thing in this time him 283 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: in this sort of if we're going Joseph Campbell with it, 284 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: in this journey in the wilderness and this dark Night 285 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: of the Soul or whatever. Uh, this is when Doll 286 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: meets another person that will change his life an author 287 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: named cs Forrester. Cs Forrester had written this very popular 288 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: series of books featuring a character Horatio Hornblower, who was 289 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: a navelman, and you know, it was all these adventures 290 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: and Doll and his cohorts in the r A f 291 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: would have been super familiar with these, you know, in 292 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: their downtime reading these books. And he was approached by 293 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: this man who came directly to see him and wanted 294 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 1: to interview him about that crash in Egypt that we 295 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: talked about earlier, where he you know, went down and 296 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 1: had to run away from the explosion and very heroic stuff. 297 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: Because there was a newly established organization within the British 298 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: government that was based in the United States called the 299 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: British information s pervices, and their job was kind of 300 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: to helps sway American sentiment towards supporting the war effort 301 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: and aiding Britain, who had always been a huge ally 302 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: of ours, but yet because of that isolationist position, it 303 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: wasn't something that our government was interested in getting involved in. 304 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: And one way of doing that and swaying that opinion 305 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: was with stories of heroism and these you know, these 306 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: moments like what happened to Doll And we'll say it propaganda. Okay, yes, yeah, 307 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: it's it's propagand that doesn't mean it's not true. That 308 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: just means it's it's it's a narrative with an end goal. 309 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 1: It's persuasive writing. So Forrester has a deal where he's 310 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: going to sort of ghost, right, is what they assumed. 311 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 1: They assumed that it would be like Saturday Evening Post 312 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: features fighter Ace roled Doll as told to cs Forrester, 313 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: you know the way a lot of politicians today don't 314 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: actually write their own books. But turns out that after 315 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: Forrester read dolls account, he thought, I don't have to 316 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: change this. This guy is actually a bang up writer. 317 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: He's top notch or the bee's knees or aces or 318 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: whatever people said at the time. The point is he 319 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: was surprisingly good, and they published the article with the 320 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: name shot down over Libya, and that was sort of 321 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: a more sensationalized title that was different from Doll's original title, 322 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: which was the slightly more tongue in cheek A piece 323 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: of cake, which is a term that fighter pilots used 324 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: kind of jokingly to refer to like maneuvers. That's a 325 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 1: piece of cake, right. But the fun thing about this 326 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: is that it maybe in an effort to impress this 327 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 1: very famous writer who he looked up to, he fictionalized 328 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: the hell out of his account. Yes, yes, that's the 329 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: always the problem when somebody's reminiscing about their past events, 330 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: isn't it. He was maybe a little more heroic, as 331 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: you recall friends and neighbors from earlier in the episode. 332 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,959 Speaker 1: He was not shot down, not in real life. He 333 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: was not. He ran a gas Yeah, he ran out 334 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: of gas. But it worked. He was actually promoted, and 335 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: I think it has something to do with his success 336 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 1: in this field and this this particular article a piece 337 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: of cake, Shotdown of Libya. They could have just combined 338 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: it into one sentence, A piece of cake shotdown over. 339 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: That would have been good. It would have been cool. Uh. 340 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: This leads him to another significant meeting. He meets a 341 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: fellow named William Stevenson, and this is where the superspy 342 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: world kind of opens up for doll Um. Stevenson was 343 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: the mastermind behind this secret ring I guess of intelligence 344 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: agents called the British Security Coordination or be SC. This 345 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: was a top secret institution set up in New York 346 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,919 Speaker 1: City by m I six in nineteen forty under the 347 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: authorization of Churchill and my six being sort of the 348 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 1: British equivalent of the c I A. Yeah, yeah, the 349 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: OSS at the time, Yeah there, Yeah, they're the uh, 350 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: they're the guys in the dark with the trench coats, right, or, 351 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: in the case of m I six, just fantastic tailored suits. Yeah, exactly, 352 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 1: the dashing young men in the tailor's suits with the 353 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: cocktails at the cocktail parties, betting influential heiressism politicians. Yes, exactly, 354 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: and that is betting B E, D, D, I N G. 355 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: Let's be clear about that. Sir William Stevenson, as as 356 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: we noted, is the head of this organization that the 357 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 1: U United Kingdoms public and the U S public have 358 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: no idea exists. Uh was doing some things that were 359 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: technically illegal, like he was passing, you know, like UK 360 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: secrets to Roosevelt. He was passing US secrets to the UK. 361 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: And he was also masterminding in a very serious way, 362 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: this push to alter the US opinion the average voter, 363 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 1: given the way the US government works, the average voter 364 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: had to support this idea. We had to be persuaded 365 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 1: that it was somehow worth American lives two send people 366 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: across the seas and spend enormous amounts of money to 367 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: save other people in foreign lands, which today happens all 368 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: the time. Frankly, absolutely, But I mean it feels like 369 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: there's a real parallel between the attitude of the government 370 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 1: in our country right now and the way things were 371 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: back then, and so what have when Dall and Stevenson meet. 372 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: So what came of this meeting with Stevenson was Doll 373 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 1: being first kind of recruited as a freelancer for the 374 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: b sc um And a lot of that had to 375 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: do with his success at writing all of these pieces 376 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: that are ultimately propaganda pieces, including a piece about gremlins. 377 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: He wrote a book, a short story about Gremlins that 378 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: got picked up by Disney, and he had like personal 379 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: meetings with Walt Disney and Gremlins if you I mean 380 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: you know, like obviously the Gremlins the movie, but the 381 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: Gremlins were originally these little creatures that would mess with 382 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: fighter pilots. And it was this lore, especially in in 383 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: Britain in the R A F that they would uh 384 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: make their planes malfunction and they blamed it on gremlins 385 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: and throw a red and chare. One great example of 386 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: that lore in fiction comes from The Twilight Zone in 387 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: the famous episode uh Yeah with William Shatner who sees 388 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,119 Speaker 1: a gremlin on the wing of a plane. Although it 389 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 1: is a commercial play which makes it creepy, Twilight Zones 390 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: a great show. I love it. Um. But yeah. So 391 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: that was probably what got Stevenson's attention was Doll's success, 392 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: and he wrote a lot of different pieces that ended 393 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: up in a lot of different places that were perceived 394 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: as being successful propaganda. UM. And part of the b 395 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 1: sc S mission was similar to what the British Information 396 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: Services Mission was, was to turn that public opinion towards 397 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: supporting the United Kingdom in that war effort, but he 398 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: only freelanced for like a handful of months before he 399 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: was made a full fledged member of this group known 400 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: as the Baker Street Irregulars, which was named after the 401 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: spy ring that Sherlock Holmes kind of managed um in 402 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: those books by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. And they were 403 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,239 Speaker 1: sort of street urchins that were sort of like, uh, 404 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: if you're a Game of Thrones fan, his little birds 405 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: that would, like, you know, whisper things and and find 406 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: secrets and and tell him so he could be on 407 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: top of He had eyes and ears everywhere, and that 408 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: was what Doll was a part of. And he wasn't 409 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: the only um soon to be beloved author that was 410 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: in this group, right. One of them was a little 411 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: guy into the name of Ian Fleming, right, the author 412 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: of the famous James Bond series. But today Ian Fleming 413 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: is a little bit more well known as a guy 414 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: who was a spy. Rural Doll was doesn't get some 415 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: of the credit that he deserves for this, especially when 416 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 1: you consider that they were living undercover at the time, 417 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: just like a CIA agents or CIA assets might have 418 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: a job in an embassy, as the I T guy 419 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: that actually does happen. Uh. He was working as a 420 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: public relations dude, a PR man, that was the front. 421 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:50,200 Speaker 1: But when you when you hear some of the stuff 422 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 1: we're about to tell you, UM, I don't think you'd 423 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:56,360 Speaker 1: be too hard pressed to believe that James Bond may 424 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,919 Speaker 1: have been based on Doll himself. That's that's how I 425 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: see it, I really do. He's definitely part of it. 426 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: I absolutely completely agree. I love the way that our author, 427 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: uh Lori L. Dove, writing for a House of Works, 428 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 1: describes Doll's spy career. Did this sentence stick out to you? 429 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: By all reports, he was both very good and very 430 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: bad at it. He was living extremes, I know, because 431 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: a big part of it was, you know, obviously keeping secrets. 432 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: And in a biography called Storyteller, Um, Doll's daughter actually 433 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: sort of said, yeah, Dad was a pretty bad gossip 434 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: and and really didn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Um. 435 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: But the part that he was really good at was 436 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: ingratiating himself two powerful people, and that included, as we 437 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: said earlier, powerful women who he let's just go ahead 438 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: and say it, seduced. Yeah, we were talking about this 439 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: off air. Doll was a phenomenally talented lothario, a ladies man, 440 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: and this really came in handy. This was a skill 441 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: that could be applied to sway in the opinions of 442 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: important people. But uh, Noel, I know there was a 443 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: quote that you have been waiting to bring to the air. 444 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: I gotta do it, I gotta do it. Um. In Storyteller, 445 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: the Authorized Biography of Roll Doll by Donald Sturten, he 446 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: has a quote from one of Doll's close friends, a 447 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: man with a gloriously British name, Creek Moore Fat, who 448 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: described Doll as being quote one of the biggest coxman 449 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: in Washington. I'm just gonna leave that there, all one word, 450 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,239 Speaker 1: by the way, all one word. Uh. And you know 451 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: he is in the same way that you know, and 452 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: it's it doesn't quite hold up today. And some of 453 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: the James Bond movies, the way we see Bond manipulating 454 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 1: women and and being a bit of a rake, right, 455 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: that was Doll. Yeah. So he had numerous affairs. Uh. 456 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: One with the heiress to the Standard Oil Fortune, one 457 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: with a congresswoman named Claire booth Loose who later became 458 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: an ambassador. Uh. And this is just the beginning but 459 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: you have to wonder how effective of a spy he 460 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,560 Speaker 1: was because he was swaying opinions, but then he was 461 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: talking about it, so it was probably not a secret, 462 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: or at least a very open secret that he was 463 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 1: sleeping around d c oh for sure. And he eventually 464 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: became pals with a guy by the name of Charles 465 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: Marsh who was a Texan UH newspaper tycoon UM who 466 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: was a huge fan of Churchill and a big proponent 467 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: of allying with UM the UK in support of the 468 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: fight against Hitler. And this was the big goal, right, 469 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: so he was probably able to kind of help sway 470 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: that in some of the reporting in Marsha's papers. UM. 471 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: He also became close to a lot of other prominent 472 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: American journalists and uh several big time US officials, including 473 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: the Vice President Henry Wallace, who he played tennis with 474 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: on a regular basis. Uh he he also there there's 475 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 1: a quote from Marsha's daughter, Antoinette marsh Haskell that I 476 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: I love. In a piece written by Chris Irving over 477 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: at the Telegraph, he quotes Antonette marsh Haskell is saying 478 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: girls just fell at Rold's feet. I think he slept 479 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: with everybody on the East and West coast that was 480 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,600 Speaker 1: worth more than fifty thousand dollars a year. And uh 481 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: he also, by virtue of knowing these titans of industry 482 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 1: and government, he was able to function as uh, not 483 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: just a propagandist, but a clan destin avenue of information, 484 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: of transmission of information. So he told, He told Stevenson 485 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: and the other folks of the UK that he believed, 486 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 1: for instance, the president, President Franklin Roosevelt, was sleeping around 487 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: with the Crown Princess of Norway who had been granted 488 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 1: asylum in the US. He also I think gave first 489 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: word to the UK that the US was going to 490 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 1: the moon. Yeah, he was telling people important things. I mean, 491 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: he even worked his way up to becoming so cozy 492 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: with Roosevelt himself that he was pretty regularly invited to 493 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: vacation with the man at his Hyde Park estate in 494 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: New York. Yes. And in nine he began experiencing back 495 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: pain and underwent a series of treatments that kept him 496 00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: in traction for several months. While he was recovering, President 497 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: Roosevelt unfortunately passed away and Germany lost the war. Well, 498 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: that part was fortunate. That's very fortunate, but it's it's 499 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: sad that Roosevelt passed away. But yeah, imagine being rolled 500 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: dall And and coming out from this dreadful recovery, this 501 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: hard earned recovery, and then find and then learning that 502 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: you know, he won the war. I would say it 503 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: was probably a little bitter, sweet, ben um, but then 504 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, it did give him the opportunity to leave 505 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: that spies life, that swashbuckling couxman life behind him. Yes, 506 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:41,719 Speaker 1: he settled down. He married Patricia Neil in ninety three. Uh, 507 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: their marriage lasted for thirty years. And this episode is 508 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 1: not about the subsequent career that dall would had, but 509 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: as we as we know, he became a giant of 510 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: of literature and beloved very much to this day. And 511 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: not a lot of people know where where a lot 512 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: of that stuff came from. And Ben, do you like 513 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: the term fabulous? Yeah, isn't that a fun one? It's 514 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: a good one. It's a you know, I'm torn because 515 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: fictionist was another one that we discovered on this show 516 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: that I really enjoyed. But fabulous as well, I would 517 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: describe him as such, but basically dull. Even with that 518 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: fictionalization of his you know, war efforts and that plane 519 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: crash in Egypt. He was kind of a professional liar, 520 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: which is what a spy is. And ultimately what a 521 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: good author is right is to tell a convincing lie 522 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: or to find the truth of the human experience through fiction, 523 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 1: which is a lie. I completely agree, And I also 524 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: have to wonder what would have happened had he not 525 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 1: been in the hospital for those few months. Would he 526 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: have continued because as we know when he when he 527 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: comes out of the hospital, he's lost sort of his 528 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: taste for the spies life, and he's ready to go 529 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: home and settle down, and he feels he served his country. 530 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: But what if he continued, how would our image of 531 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: James Bond have changed? I'd like to hear some fabulousm 532 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: from you folks, let us know. And while you're at it, 533 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: we cannot recommend the book The Regulars enough. If you 534 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 1: want to read something related, we'd also like to recommend 535 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 1: Churchill's Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare by Giles Milton. And it's 536 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: about the Other Front, not This is about Churchill's clandestine 537 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: activities to try to assassinate Hitler and our pals Holly 538 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: and Tracy over stuff you miss in history class. Actually 539 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: just recently did a two part episode on the ministry 540 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 1: of ungentlemanly warfare, So pop over and check that out 541 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: and definitely pick up the book. And I would just 542 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,799 Speaker 1: like to end with a nice quote, uh from dol 543 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: himself that I think ties a lot of this together. 544 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: Quote truth is far too precious a commodity to be 545 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 1: used lightly. And with that, huge thank you to our 546 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: friend and super produce Ramsey gunt our super producer Casey Pegram, 547 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: thanks to Alex Williams for composing our theme and sound cues, 548 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: and thanks to Lori L. Dove for writing the article 549 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,719 Speaker 1: for how Stuff Works that we refer to several times 550 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: in this episode. You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, 551 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: We're we're on the usual Internet places you'll you'll see 552 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: us there Ridiculous History, or you can get us anywhere 553 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 1: that you get your podcast. You already know that you're 554 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: getting it from wherever you're going to get it. You 555 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: don't need us to tell you. But most importantly, thanks 556 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: to you for listening, and we really hope that you'll 557 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 1: join us for the next episode of Ridiculous History. Have 558 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: a great day. Everyone