1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,720 Kelsey Snelling: This episode contains mentions of disordered eating, mental illness, and suicide. 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:07,960 Kelsey Snelling: Please take caution while listening and check the show notes 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:15,880 Kelsey Snelling: for resources. It's June twenty second, twenty eleven, camper arrival 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:20,360 Kelsey Snelling: day at Camp Shane. It's also my twenty first birthday. 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,240 Kelsey Snelling: But there's no alcohol and there's definitely no cake. And 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,599 Kelsey Snelling: for the next nine weeks, I'm in charge of a 7 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,640 Kelsey Snelling: cabin of a dozen or so thirteen year old girls. 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,320 Kelsey Snelling: It's my first time as a counselor at a summer camp, 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:37,120 Kelsey Snelling: and I'm giving each and every camper an enthusiastic welcome 10 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,920 Kelsey Snelling: to what will be, if I have anything to say 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:46,000 Kelsey Snelling: about it, the best summer of their lives. Some campers 12 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,319 Kelsey Snelling: are excited, they know that good times and freedom from 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,000 Kelsey Snelling: their families await, but some of the girls are apprehensive 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:56,680 Kelsey Snelling: and uncomfortable, resistant to being left behind by their parents. 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,640 Kelsey Snelling: One camper is actively and inconsolably crying. Her mother leaves 16 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:04,960 Kelsey Snelling: and I sit on the bed next to her, trying 17 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,920 Kelsey Snelling: to offer comfort. I tell her what I've been repeating 18 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,320 Kelsey Snelling: all day long. Trust me, this is going to be 19 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:16,319 Kelsey Snelling: an amazing sum mer. I explain all the crazy activities 20 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,200 Kelsey Snelling: we have planned, all the wacky counselors and the old 21 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,720 Kelsey Snelling: camp traditions. I figure she's just a little scared to 22 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,200 Kelsey Snelling: be in a new place. But eventually she takes a 23 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:31,039 Kelsey Snelling: breath and says something that stops me cold. You don't 24 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:36,600 Kelsey Snelling: understand this is not my first time here. She knew 25 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,559 Kelsey Snelling: something about Camp Shane I didn't, something I would soon 26 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:47,960 Kelsey Snelling: see for myself. This is Camp Shane. I'm Kelsey Snelling. 27 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,080 Kelsey Snelling: This episode we're zooming in on my summer at Camp Shane, 28 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:57,600 Kelsey Snelling: the experience that set this whole podcast in motion. Today 29 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,600 Kelsey Snelling: we're talking about twenty eleven, a summer filled with disordered eating, 30 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:09,160 Kelsey Snelling: mental health issues, and a giant pit of jello. By 31 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,880 Kelsey Snelling: the time I got there, Camp Shane's heyday was in 32 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:16,040 Kelsey Snelling: the rear view mirror. Fewer campers were signing up. This 33 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,080 Kelsey Snelling: was in part because the cultural tides were turning. Traditional 34 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,440 Kelsey Snelling: diet culture was starting to be overshadowed by wellness culture. 35 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:28,240 Kelsey Snelling: Super skinny was deprioritized in favor of fitness and strength, 36 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,560 Kelsey Snelling: or at least that's how it was sold. Wellness culture 37 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,560 Kelsey Snelling: is just diet culture with a minimally disparate ideal. Plus 38 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:40,240 Kelsey Snelling: the aftershocks of the two thousand and eight recession meant 39 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,880 Kelsey Snelling: families didn't have as much money to send their kids 40 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:48,200 Kelsey Snelling: to summer camp anymore. Shane was reaching a tipping point. 41 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,079 Kelsey Snelling: David was seeking bodies to fill the camp, and according 42 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,840 Kelsey Snelling: to multiple sources, tensions were high between David and his 43 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,920 Kelsey Snelling: right hand man, the hands on camp director, Simon Greenwood. 44 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:02,680 Kelsey Snelling: I tried to talk to Merryl about it when I 45 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:06,839 Kelsey Snelling: interviewed her last spring. What was Simon and David's relationship like? 46 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,240 Merryl: I would like to not go there? 47 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:16,679 Kelsey Snelling: Yikes. In the spring of twenty eleven, I didn't yet 48 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,280 Kelsey Snelling: know about any of camp's shortcomings. I was a junior 49 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:23,240 Kelsey Snelling: in college and I hadn't even heard of Camp Shane. 50 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,920 Kelsey Snelling: I'd seen the movie Heavyweights, but I didn't realize fat 51 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,240 Kelsey Snelling: camps were a real thing that actually existed until one 52 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,880 Kelsey Snelling: day when my older sister called me on the phone 53 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:33,520 Kelsey Snelling: and said... 54 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,520 Robin: I found the coolest job ever and we need to apply. 55 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:42,560 Kelsey Snelling: So I said, okay, what is it? And she sent 56 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,520 Kelsey Snelling: me the link to the Camp Shane website. 57 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,160 Robin: I had finished college, I wasn't quite ready to get 58 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,080 Robin: started on a career yet, but I had this laundry 59 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,680 Robin: list of jobs that, for one reason or another, I 60 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,320 Robin: had always wanted to try and at the top of 61 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:58,960 Robin: that list was being a camp counselor. 62 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,920 Kelsey Snelling: That's my sister, Robin, but you'll never hear me call 63 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,400 Kelsey Snelling: her that. To me, She's just Bobby. 64 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,600 Robin: So I did an internet search and one of the 65 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,800 Robin: very first results that came back was this camp that 66 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,640 Robin: wasn't too far from where I lived. It was in 67 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,479 Robin: a beautiful part of the country. It had tons of 68 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,719 Robin: celebrity endorsements, and it just looked like a really fun 69 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,000 Robin: place to spend a summer based on all of the 70 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,080 Robin: activities that they had on their website. 71 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,839 Kelsey Snelling: At this point, Bobby and I were drinking the Camp Shane 72 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,080 Kelsey Snelling: kool aid or maybe crystal light in this case. The 73 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,839 Kelsey Snelling: way the website sold it, camp seemed like a fun, 74 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,520 Kelsey Snelling: positive environment. We looked forward to the chance to teach 75 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,559 Kelsey Snelling: kids about fitness and how to love themselves, and maybe 76 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,599 Kelsey Snelling: we'd lose a little weight ourselves. Sign us up. So 77 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:55,799 Kelsey Snelling: we applied and both got jobs, her as a general 78 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,520 Kelsey Snelling: counselor for the young adult women and me as the 79 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,520 Kelsey Snelling: arts and crafts teacher. I'd also be in a bunk 80 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,159 Kelsey Snelling: with thirteen year old girls. We were stoked. 81 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,719 Robin: I really was going in with a very optimistic view 82 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,960 Robin: that This would be a place where kids that were 83 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,600 Robin: struggling with their weight really could get some guidance on 84 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:20,839 Robin: how to develop better habits, how to be healthier, develop 85 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,800 Robin: their body image, that sort of thing. 86 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:29,680 Kelsey Snelling: There was one downside. The pay sucked. Base salary five 87 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:34,760 Kelsey Snelling: hundred and fifty dollars, completion of contract, stipend two hundred 88 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,679 Kelsey Snelling: and seventy five dollars, travel stipend two hundred and seventy 89 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,279 Kelsey Snelling: five dollars, for a total of one thousand, one hundred 90 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,159 Kelsey Snelling: dollars spanning about eleven weeks of work and about ninety 91 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:52,200 Kelsey Snelling: hours of work a week. That amounted to basically a 92 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,119 Kelsey Snelling: dollar an hour. But I didn't care. I was young. 93 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:01,840 Kelsey Snelling: Any amount of money was exciting to me. Employees had 94 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,960 Kelsey Snelling: staggered start days, and as the arts and crafts teacher, 95 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,920 Kelsey Snelling: I had some setup to do. So I arrived at 96 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,679 Kelsey Snelling: Camp Shane a few days before my sister, and right away 97 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,440 Kelsey Snelling: I realized the food was less than optimal. All of 98 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,200 Kelsey Snelling: the work Simon had put into elevating the cuisine at 99 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:22,600 Kelsey Snelling: camp didn't seem to matter much when the portions were 100 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:23,360 Kelsey Snelling: so minimal. 101 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:29,400 Robin: I remember you called us to let us know how 102 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,480 Robin: camp was going, and this was of course, before all 103 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,360 Robin: of the counselors and campers had arrived, in the early 104 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,679 Robin: days of just getting things set up, and you said 105 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,360 Robin: something about we had breakfast and it was one silver 106 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:49,120 Robin: dollar pancake and five blueberries. And I remember talking to 107 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,120 Robin: Mom and saying this, she has to be exaggerating. There's 108 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,839 Robin: no way they would be feeding adults this for breakfast. 109 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,600 Robin: And then I got to camp myself and realized that 110 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,000 Robin: was not an exaggeration. It was quite accurate. 111 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,320 Kelsey Snelling: Thank you. I get accused of exaggerating. 112 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,120 Robin: Well, not this time. 113 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,400 Kelsey Snelling: Another thing that needs no exaggeration. The camp was in 114 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,760 Kelsey Snelling: complete disrepair. My first three or four days were spent 115 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,080 Kelsey Snelling: just cleaning with my new colleagues, rearranging mattresses, dusting and 116 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,760 Kelsey Snelling: cleaning windows, and sweeping the floors, which had huge gaps 117 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,440 Kelsey Snelling: between the wooden planks. In some areas you could see 118 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,160 Kelsey Snelling: down to the ground below, and when you looked up, 119 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:35,960 Kelsey Snelling: the roof leaked too. As the Arts and Crafts teacher, 120 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,240 Kelsey Snelling: I also had my own classroom of sorts to prep. 121 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,240 Kelsey Snelling: It was in my favorite building on campus, tucked into 122 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,040 Kelsey Snelling: the woods, away from the busiest parts of camp, with 123 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,080 Kelsey Snelling: a big balcony looking onto the lush greenery below, but 124 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:54,520 Kelsey Snelling: inside it was gross. There were unclaimed art projects that 125 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,520 Kelsey Snelling: had grown moldy from years in storage, Bottles of glue 126 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:02,520 Kelsey Snelling: had completely hardened, and empty tubs of what was once 127 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,520 Kelsey Snelling: glitter were filled with dead bugs. I threw everything into 128 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,360 Kelsey Snelling: trash bags and started from scratch, which included repainting the 129 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,600 Kelsey Snelling: walls and sanding the splintering floors. One day during this 130 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,800 Kelsey Snelling: orientation week, a few counselors and I went down to 131 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,760 Kelsey Snelling: explore the campground's creek, which was a bit of a 132 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:23,720 Kelsey Snelling: walk from the main part of camp. A dip into 133 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,720 Kelsey Snelling: the cool crystal water surrounded by towering pine trees sounds idyllic, right? 134 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:34,280 Kelsey Snelling: Well in this case, no. The creek was filled with trash. 135 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,160 Kelsey Snelling: There were old car parts scattered around, and at one 136 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,959 Kelsey Snelling: point I felt something bump my leg. When I looked down, 137 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,719 Kelsey Snelling: I saw a bloated dead beaver circus staring up at me. 138 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:52,720 Kelsey Snelling: I still think about its eyes. Now here's the thing 139 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,520 Kelsey Snelling: I'm all about, that rustic life. Okay, I camp, I backpack, 140 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,160 Kelsey Snelling: I'll sleep on the floor. I don't care. By twenty eleven, 141 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,360 Kelsey Snelling: families were spending nearly ten thousand dollars to send their 142 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,720 Kelsey Snelling: children to camp and at that price point, I was 143 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,280 Kelsey Snelling: pretty shocked at the state of things. Now. I refer 144 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:18,080 Kelsey Snelling: to this time as orientation week quite loosely, because really... 145 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,160 Casey: Training was just kind of like cleaning up the camp 146 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,160 Casey: and getting to know each other, and we really weren't 147 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:29,360 Casey: given any sort of formal training. Like I think I 148 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:30,800 Casey: knew what to do if there was a fire in 149 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:33,960 Casey: the cabin, but I feel like that's that's probably where 150 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,360 Casey: it stops. Now looking back, I'm like, none of us 151 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,439 Casey: were trained or qualified or really knew what we were doing, 152 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,920 Casey: but like some of us really were there for the 153 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:43,600 Casey: right reasons. 154 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,520 Kelsey Snelling: That's another Camp Shane counselor from my twenty eleven summer. 155 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,000 Kelsey Snelling: She requested to be anonymous, so we'll call her Casey. 156 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,520 Kelsey Snelling: Casey was hired to be a group leader at Camp Shane, 157 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,680 Kelsey Snelling: meaning in addition to counselor responsibilities, she would also be 158 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,440 Kelsey Snelling: managing other counselors in her cabin's age group. When she 159 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,640 Kelsey Snelling: arrived at camp, she was amped up and ready to 160 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,360 Kelsey Snelling: bond with the girls in her bunk she had the 161 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:13,800 Kelsey Snelling: sixteen year olds. When the kids eventually arrived at Camp Shane, 162 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,800 Kelsey Snelling: they were told to strip down to a swimsuit in 163 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,920 Kelsey Snelling: front of everyone to be photographed. This would be the 164 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:25,600 Kelsey Snelling: before picture, which would showcase their inevitable big transformation over 165 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:26,120 Kelsey Snelling: the summer. 166 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:28,400 Casey: And my campers were so anxious. 167 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:33,000 Kelsey Snelling: Understandable. Can you imagine showing up to a completely new 168 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,160 Kelsey Snelling: place where you know no one, and then you're asked 169 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,439 Kelsey Snelling: to take off your clothes and show off your body, 170 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,160 Kelsey Snelling: which is perhaps your biggest source of shame and insecurity. 171 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:46,640 Casey: And I went ahead and took my T shirt off 172 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,800 Casey: and I had like a sports bra and shorts on. 173 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,240 Casey: I was like, come on, guys, we can do this, 174 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:53,960 Casey: like we'll do it with you, And so all my 175 00:10:54,040 --> 00:11:00,360 Casey: counselors all removed their outer T shirt and from that 176 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,000 Casey: point on we were known as like the naked bunk 177 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,920 Casey: because we were always like, you know, fuck what anyone cares. Like, okay, 178 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,000 Casey: we have fat on our stomachs. 179 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,360 Kelsey Snelling: She even came up with a special name for her 180 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,479 Kelsey Snelling: girls to help boost their confidence. 181 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,960 Casey: We called ourselves the Honey Badgers because like I would 182 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,640 Casey: encourage them to like work out in the sports bra 183 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,400 Casey: and just not care what anyone fucking thinks about them. 184 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,960 Kelsey Snelling: Honey Badgers named after that viral video that was everywhere 185 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:32,160 Kelsey Snelling: in twenty eleven. 186 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,439 Honey Badgers Clip: The honey badger has been referred to by the Guinness 187 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,960 Honey Badgers Clip: Book of World Records as the most fearless animal in 188 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,440 Honey Badgers Clip: all of the Animal Kingdom. It really doesn't give a shit. 189 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,880 Kelsey Snelling: In addition to these photos, at the start of the summer, 190 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,280 Kelsey Snelling: there were the infamous weekly weigh-ins that tracked kids progress. 191 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,480 Kelsey Snelling: The weigh-ins had been around since the camp's inception, and 192 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,440 Kelsey Snelling: kids were desperate for their number to go down each week. 193 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:01,000 Kelsey Snelling: Sometimes they'd completely starve themselves the day before, they'd refuse 194 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,679 Kelsey Snelling: to drink water, they'd cram in a couple of extra 195 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,320 Kelsey Snelling: sit ups, and they'd even make trips to the nurse, 196 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,880 Kelsey Snelling: claiming to be constipated so that they'd be given laxatives 197 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:15,360 Kelsey Snelling: or prune juice. Now, laxatives are a huge red flag 198 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,200 Kelsey Snelling: of disordered eating. You'd think a nurse at a weight 199 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,880 Kelsey Snelling: loss camp would recognize that and not pass out laxatives 200 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:27,560 Kelsey Snelling: willy nilly, But it happened, and Casey remembers the toll 201 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,440 Kelsey Snelling: these weigh-ins took on her campers. 202 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,400 Casey: My girls would not want to eat Saturday night, they 203 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,120 Casey: wouldn't want to drink water so that they would weigh 204 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:43,000 Casey: more with water weight. It was a giant obsession with 205 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:44,880 Casey: the number on the scale, and so there was always 206 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,360 Casey: a lot of anxiety walking over to weigh-ins, and there 207 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,240 Casey: was tears, and there was high fives, and there was 208 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,400 Casey: just a mix of disappointment and pride depending on the 209 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:58,439 Casey: kid what they saw when they got in. 210 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,760 Kelsey Snelling: Casey had her own struggles with weight, which had inspired 211 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,080 Kelsey Snelling: her to apply for a job at Camp Shane in the 212 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:09,000 Kelsey Snelling: first place. As she tells it, she started gaining noticeable 213 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,120 Kelsey Snelling: amounts of weight when she was around twelve. 214 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,320 Casey: I grew up in a house which was a pretty 215 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,720 Casey: conservative house, I would say, and I hid a big 216 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,800 Casey: secret for a while to my family, which was that 217 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:28,960 Casey: I struggled with my sexuality. I started gaining weight right 218 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,880 Casey: around the time I realized that I was gay, or 219 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:33,800 Casey: maybe after. I mean I think I knew when I 220 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,680 Casey: was younger, but I'd say around the age of twelve thirteen, 221 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,479 Casey: it got pretty out of control. 222 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,280 Kelsey Snelling: Struggling emotionally, Casey turned to binge eating. 223 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,560 Casey: Just reading other people's testimonies. As an adult, I'm like, man, 224 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,160 Casey: that's like a thing where you actually eat your feelings. 225 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:58,240 Kelsey Snelling: Throughout high school and college, Casey continued these habits and 226 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,400 Kelsey Snelling: continued to gain weight. It didn't stop until one day 227 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,560 Kelsey Snelling: she had a difficult conversation with a close friend. 228 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,000 Casey: I kind of had a hard conversation with a friend 229 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,559 Casey: of mine in college who was like, why don't you 230 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,200 Casey: ever go to the beach with us, Why don't you 231 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,200 Casey: ever go on cruises with us when we go for 232 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,320 Casey: spring break? You're really missing out. And I would always 233 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,480 Casey: come up with these horrible excuses like, well, I have 234 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,960 Casey: a really big thing I have to study for, or 235 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,360 Casey: I just want to go hang out with my family, 236 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,720 Casey: or oh, I have other plans, And I really didn't. 237 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:33,480 Casey: I just didn't want to be in a bathing suit 238 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:39,720 Casey: or in shorts or anything showing any body part. So 239 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,280 Casey: at about twenty one, I just decided enough is enough, 240 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,680 Casey: threw away all the food in my apartment, and I 241 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,040 Casey: went to the grocery store and just like started from scratch. 242 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,840 Kelsey Snelling: Now it's important to say that big changes like this 243 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,440 Kelsey Snelling: don't always lead to big weight loss. In fact, they 244 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:03,080 Kelsey Snelling: usually don't, But for Casey, changing her eating habits and 245 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:08,160 Kelsey Snelling: exercising more did lead to significant weight loss. By age 246 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,760 Kelsey Snelling: twenty four, she was in a completely transformed body. A colleague 247 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,680 Kelsey Snelling: then suggested she apply for a summer job at Camp Shane, 248 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,120 Kelsey Snelling: and Casey thought it was a great idea. 249 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,280 Casey: I wanted to inspire people, as cheesy as that sounds, 250 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:30,280 Casey: and use my transformation as like an inspiration to pass 251 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,280 Casey: it on. And that's really why I was there. I 252 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,080 Casey: wasn't I definitely wasn't there to find a hookup. I 253 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,440 Casey: wasn't there for the money, because god knows they didn't 254 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,920 Casey: really pay. But I thought making friends would be fun, 255 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,840 Casey: and I thought being a good model for these kids 256 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,760 Casey: was a great idea since I never had one. 257 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,120 Kelsey Snelling: I also had struggled with eating and body image throughout 258 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,680 Kelsey Snelling: my life. Casey, Bobby, and I were all at Camp 259 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,080 Kelsey Snelling: Shane for similar reasons. We thought this was going to 260 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,280 Kelsey Snelling: be a body positive, progressive environment, teaching kids to love 261 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:11,040 Kelsey Snelling: their bodies and enjoy active lifestyles. But Camp Shane being 262 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:21,000 Kelsey Snelling: Camp Shane, that's not how things panned out. Camp Shane 263 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:25,320 Kelsey Snelling: wasn't what my sister and I had hoped it would be. First, 264 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,160 Kelsey Snelling: the meal plan. We've talked about the food plenty already, 265 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,200 Kelsey Snelling: but as Casey pointed out to me, there didn't seem 266 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:36,360 Kelsey Snelling: to be a specific strategy around the small portions. It 267 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,120 Kelsey Snelling: wasn't low carb, it wasn't about filling up on greens. 268 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,400 Kelsey Snelling: It was random food in a calorie deficit. 269 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,400 Casey: Their motto was live, laugh, lose, But I wasn't really sure, 270 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:52,040 Casey: you know what they if they agreed or aligned with 271 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:58,520 Casey: a certain nutrition philosophy or weight loss management philosophy. It 272 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:03,080 Casey: was just no one really knew like how to lose 273 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,760 Casey: weight health in a healthy way and keep it off, 274 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,920 Casey: and so people just did their best with their own knowledge. 275 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:15,199 Kelsey Snelling: The Camp Shane no-strategy-strategy didn't sit well with Casey. 276 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,119 Casey: I didn't feel like the kids were learning how to 277 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,639 Casey: maintain any sort of weight loss, which led me to 278 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,760 Casey: start having thoughts like, oh, they want kids to gain 279 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,040 Casey: weight back so that they come back next summer. It 280 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:29,360 Casey: makes sense, it's a business. 281 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,080 Kelsey Snelling: Throughout the years, the camp advertised on its website a 282 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,080 Kelsey Snelling: professional chef on staff, as well as licensed nutritionists to 283 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,480 Kelsey Snelling: put Shaners on the path toward a better lifestyle. But 284 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,359 Kelsey Snelling: Casey noticed that the people teaching nutrition classes didn't seem 285 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,200 Kelsey Snelling: qualified to make sure her girls were getting the education 286 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,720 Kelsey Snelling: they had signed up for. Casey took matters into her 287 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:53,440 Kelsey Snelling: own hands. 288 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,240 Casey: The girls would come in and be like, I'd be like, 289 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,000 Casey: what'd you do a nutrition class and they're like, we 290 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,760 Casey: learned how to bake chicken with certain seasonings. And I'm like, okay, 291 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,679 Casey: that's good, but why is the chicken healthy? And they're like, oh, 292 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,600 Casey: I didn't tell us. So I used to sit down 293 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,840 Casey: with my campers like a couple times a week, and 294 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,680 Casey: they would bring their notebooks and I would share what 295 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,159 Casey: limited knowledge I had. I tried to introduce them to 296 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:26,119 Casey: like nutrition one oh one, like from a scientific sort 297 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,440 Casey: of thing, but also how you could incorporate it into 298 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:32,240 Casey: like a regular life, Like instead of going for fruit loops, 299 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,560 Casey: you could eat hard boiled egg or whatever in the 300 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,400 Casey: morning yogurt or Greek yogurt because it's very low in 301 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:44,719 Casey: sugar and high protein. And they were just furiously taking notes, 302 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,560 Casey: and I'm like, this is what you should be doing 303 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:50,080 Casey: a nutrition class, but I did it on my time off. 304 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,159 Kelsey Snelling: Casey wasn't a licensed nutritionist or dietitian, and some of 305 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,720 Kelsey Snelling: her tips were still steeped in a diet culture mindset. 306 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,520 Kelsey Snelling: She was just using her own experience to try to 307 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,040 Kelsey Snelling: fill in some gaps in the camp's programming. She also 308 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,960 Kelsey Snelling: got special permission to cook her girl's dinner one night 309 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,080 Kelsey Snelling: so they could get a taste of a meal that 310 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,240 Kelsey Snelling: was healthy, nutritious, and didn't leave them starving. 311 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,320 Casey: Afterwards, I was allowed to go to the grocery store 312 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,560 Casey: with a couple of my counselors and we did like, 313 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,320 Casey: you know, baked Greek chicken. We did like a side 314 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:30,640 Casey: of roasted vegetables and Greek yogurt for dessert, sweetened with 315 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,119 Casey: like stevia or something like that. It was it was 316 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,040 Casey: really good. It was a really healthy, very protein packed 317 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,440 Casey: and that was probably the most special night I ever 318 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:43,840 Casey: had with my girls. I think these kids needed a 319 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:54,359 Casey: safe space to divulge their sort of emotional issues surrounding food. 320 00:19:54,800 --> 00:20:00,920 Casey: I feel like they needed education. I feel like they needed 321 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,719 Casey: a lot of love, a lot of forgiveness. 322 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,200 Kelsey Snelling: Outside of her ad hoc nutrition lessons, kids at camp 323 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,600 Kelsey Snelling: that summer were subject to a whole host of problematic 324 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:20,000 Kelsey Snelling: approaches to food. Camp Shane prided itself on unique and 325 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,359 Kelsey Snelling: immersive activities throughout the summer, many of course attributed to 326 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,320 Kelsey Snelling: Simon and his head's staff. There was a Vegas casino night, 327 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,440 Kelsey Snelling: a carnival, and something called Fear Factor Day inspired by 328 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,920 Kelsey Snelling: the NBC game show. For the most part, these were 329 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,959 Kelsey Snelling: creative and memorable experiences for the kids, but sometimes they 330 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:45,960 Kelsey Snelling: turned out to be memorable in all the wrong ways 331 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:51,965 Kelsey Snelling: and only reinforced negative relationships with food Like the jello 332 00:20:51,965 --> 00:20:58,240 Kelsey Snelling: pit a truly unsettling site to behold. A few counselors 333 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,679 Kelsey Snelling: were asked to dig a four foot deep pit in 334 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,520 Kelsey Snelling: the ground, then fill it halfway with red jello. This 335 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,000 Kelsey Snelling: was for an activity where kids could jump in two 336 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,200 Kelsey Snelling: at a time and compete in a wrestling match. Many 337 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,679 Kelsey Snelling: of the campers were shirtless, sweaty, and covered in mud, 338 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,679 Kelsey Snelling: but that didn't stop them from attempting to sneak a 339 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,200 Kelsey Snelling: little taste of the dessert, in which they literally swam. 340 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,240 Kelsey Snelling: As you can imagine, this posed a threat to that 341 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,840 Kelsey Snelling: week's weigh-in, so staff started mixing soap in with the 342 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,160 Kelsey Snelling: jello to discourage any snacking. This deterred only about half 343 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:37,800 Kelsey Snelling: of the attempts. Then there was the Apache Relay, the 344 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,119 Kelsey Snelling: last part of the famed Color War, which we talked 345 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:45,520 Kelsey Snelling: about last episode. This race was the culmination of summer 346 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,840 Kelsey Snelling: and every single person on campus was involved. Essentially, everyone 347 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,240 Kelsey Snelling: was assigned a different leg of the competition. You might 348 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,159 Kelsey Snelling: be tasked with a dizzy bat run or rolling an 349 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,960 Kelsey Snelling: orange across a field using only your nose. My sister 350 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,760 Kelsey Snelling: Bobby was assigned the second to last stretch of the 351 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,680 Kelsey Snelling: relay race for her team. 352 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,920 Robin: And so the baton has passed to us. We're running 353 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,800 Robin: the end of the course and we turn the corner 354 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,439 Robin: and the end of our leg of the race is 355 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:24,400 Robin: two picnic tables. One is full of blueberry pie, the 356 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:29,080 Robin: other is full of watermelon. I'm talking of full watermelon, 357 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:36,600 Robin: not slices of watermelon. And I had to watch my 358 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,080 Robin: female co counselor eat an entire blueberry pie as fast 359 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:46,119 Robin: as she could, and one of my male co counselors 360 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,400 Robin: eat an entire watermelon in front of all of the campers. 361 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,119 Robin: This is pretty messed up, right, Like someone decided at 362 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,760 Robin: a weight loss camp they were going to have counselors 363 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,520 Robin: down as much food as they can while all the 364 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,720 Robin: kids are watching and cheering. After my co counselor ate 365 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,560 Robin: the blueberry pie and I did watch her make herself 366 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,560 Robin: throw up, we had to swim together on a raft 367 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:17,639 Robin: across the pool. 368 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,520 Kelsey Snelling: Bobby wasn't the only one who witnessed puking. The counselors 369 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,760 Kelsey Snelling: couldn't help but throw up publicly in trash cans in 370 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,960 Kelsey Snelling: front of the crowd. I have photo evidence. But beyond 371 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:36,600 Kelsey Snelling: being gross, these events were reinforcing dangerous ideas about food. 372 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:43,159 Kelsey Snelling: We've already established that Camps Shane's diet was hmm problematic 373 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,920 Kelsey Snelling: to say the least. There were the minuscule portions, the 374 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,040 Kelsey Snelling: ever present weigh-ins, the pig out room, and now the 375 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,600 Kelsey Snelling: pie eating contests and giant pits of jello. All of 376 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,640 Kelsey Snelling: these things set up a damaging cycle of restriction and excess. 377 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,119 Kelsey Snelling: It encouraged campers to covet for bit foods and then 378 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:15,639 Kelsey Snelling: feel guilty afterwards for eating them. All of this, combined 379 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,520 Kelsey Snelling: the lack of nutritional education, the restrictive diet, the emphasis 380 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,560 Kelsey Snelling: on food without taking into account the mental toll it 381 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:30,000 Kelsey Snelling: takes on kids, it's dangerous. Bobby started witnessing disordered eating 382 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,000 Kelsey Snelling: from her campers. 383 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,280 Robin: One of them had a total breakdown because she, in quotes, 384 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,159 Robin: slipped up and ate a single potato chip and she 385 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,240 Robin: wanted to go talk to the counselor about it. So 386 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,040 Robin: there were there were a number of little things like 387 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:52,560 Robin: that that were happening all around me that, you know, 388 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,520 Robin: I started to realize this is not just a group 389 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,879 Robin: of people who are looking to lose a little bit 390 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,400 Robin: of weight, like there are some deep seated things here 391 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,080 Robin: that this camp is not not only is it not 392 00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:14,080 Robin: able to address, but is doing things that may actually 393 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,199 Robin: be detrimental by pushing the weight loss and pushing the 394 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:23,560 Robin: restricted eating and really spending no time on the deeper issues. 395 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,399 Kelsey Snelling: And again, Bobby was not a trained psychological professional. She 396 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,520 Kelsey Snelling: didn't know how to handle this kind of distress kids 397 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,880 Kelsey Snelling: were experiencing, so she brought it to Simon. 398 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,560 Robin: I was having a conversation with a couple of other 399 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,639 Robin: counselors and staff members. I was saying how distressing it 400 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:51,320 Robin: was to learn about the trauma and the eating disorders 401 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,159 Robin: and the body dysmorphia that a lot of my campers 402 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,080 Robin: were revealing to me, and I didn't necessarily know how 403 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:04,320 Robin: to handle it. And he said something along the lines of, oh, 404 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,920 Robin: everybody at camp has an eating disorder, and he said 405 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:13,359 Robin: it in such a nonchalant way, and I just remember thinking, 406 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,359 Robin: I never want to get to the point where I 407 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:21,679 Robin: normalize children having eating disorders. I just I couldn't get 408 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,480 Robin: over it the way that it was just breezed over 409 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:26,879 Robin: like it was totally normal. 410 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,399 Kelsey Snelling: In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if everyone left camp 411 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,199 Kelsey Snelling: with an eating disorder just by the nature of the 412 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,600 Kelsey Snelling: camp environment. Here's weight inclusive physician doctor Lisa Erlanger, who 413 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,320 Kelsey Snelling: you've heard from throughout this series. 414 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,000 Dr. Erlanger: Dieting in childhood and adolescence is one of the best 415 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:52,800 Dr. Erlanger: predictors of disordered eating behaviors later in adolescence. Behaviors like 416 00:26:53,240 --> 00:27:00,320 Dr. Erlanger: binge eating, fasting alternating with eating, compulsive exercise, and eating 417 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,720 Dr. Erlanger: disorders rob people of life. They're like any other mental 418 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,919 Dr. Erlanger: health disorder. They consume so much time and they become 419 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,480 Dr. Erlanger: solitary pursuits. It makes it hard to eat with friends, 420 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,680 Dr. Erlanger: it makes it hard to exercise in public. People develop 421 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,679 Dr. Erlanger: so much hatred of their body, they don't want to 422 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,320 Dr. Erlanger: be with other people, and it becomes hard to do 423 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,000 Dr. Erlanger: things that we know support health, and that's not what 424 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:27,879 Dr. Erlanger: any of us want for kids. 425 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,919 Kelsey Snelling: Many people don't understand the severity and danger of eating disorders. 426 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,800 Kelsey Snelling: They are not to be taken lightly. 427 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:45,040 Dr. Erlanger: Eating disorders are the most lethal mental health disorder, second 428 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:51,560 Dr. Erlanger: to opioid use disorder. Anorexia, which is under recognized, vastly 429 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:57,040 Dr. Erlanger: under recognized in larger bodied kids, is a deadly illness. 430 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:02,320 Dr. Erlanger: So not only does it rob kids of joy and 431 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:11,920 Dr. Erlanger: well being in their childhood and their adolescence. It kills them. 432 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,280 Kelsey Snelling: More than five percent of anorexia patients die within only 433 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:22,280 Kelsey Snelling: four years of initial diagnosis. Symptoms of anorexia include thinning bones, 434 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:27,800 Kelsey Snelling: dry and yellowish skin, low blood pressure, slowed pulse, heart damage, 435 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:33,399 Kelsey Snelling: brain damage, infertility, and organ failure. People with anorexia are 436 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,200 Kelsey Snelling: at risk of dying from medical complications associated with starvation, 437 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:43,640 Kelsey Snelling: and suicide is their second leading cause of death. Anorexia 438 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:47,760 Kelsey Snelling: is perhaps the best known eating disorder, but bulimia or 439 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,360 Kelsey Snelling: binging and purging is also common and can have physical, emotional, 440 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:58,800 Kelsey Snelling: and even financial effects. Stripped tooth enamel, esophageal issues, shame, 441 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,360 Kelsey Snelling: and of course other poor health outcomes from eating piles 442 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:10,240 Kelsey Snelling: of fetishized foods. At Camp Shane, I succumbed to binging myself. Remember, 443 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,560 Kelsey Snelling: counselors were on the same restrictive diet that the campers were, 444 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,800 Kelsey Snelling: so my fellow counselors and I used our nights off 445 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,800 Kelsey Snelling: to visit the local diner and gorge ourselves on all 446 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,800 Kelsey Snelling: the foods that were forbidden at camp. 447 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,920 Robin: Once the evening activities were over, a percentage of the 448 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,360 Robin: counselors were sort of set loose to go out into town, 449 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,160 Robin: get off of the campgrounds for a couple of hours, 450 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:39,120 Robin: and do whatever they needed to do. So we're in 451 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,280 Robin: the middle of nowhere. There's not a ton to do. 452 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,040 Robin: But the one thing that every single counselor wanted was 453 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,000 Robin: to get as much food as they could as quickly 454 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,280 Robin: as possible for. 455 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,600 Kelsey Snelling: On our elaborate binge missions, Bobby, our friends and I 456 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,520 Kelsey Snelling: would drive down the street to the Liberty Diner. My 457 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,560 Kelsey Snelling: meal of choice was usually French fries, a plate of 458 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,400 Kelsey Snelling: buttered toast, chocolate milk, and a big brownie sundae complete 459 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,760 Kelsey Snelling: with four scoops of ice cream and a brownie of 460 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,920 Kelsey Snelling: magnificent size, served on a literal silver platter in a 461 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,320 Kelsey Snelling: moat of whipped cream, topped with a cherry. 462 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,760 Robin: This was meant to share with I'm going to say 463 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,800 Robin: six people. People would eat it by themselves, no problem. 464 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,360 Kelsey Snelling: During the production of this podcast, I actually went back 465 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,440 Kelsey Snelling: to that diner and thank god, they still sell the 466 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,160 Kelsey Snelling: brownie sundae. 467 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,120 Robin: The diner was like the place that you went to 468 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,080 Robin: just find comfort in food, but then also just all 469 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:38,760 Robin: of the emotions came out. 470 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,680 Kelsey Snelling: We'd dig into our food and let out our frustrations 471 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,640 Kelsey Snelling: about how dysfunctional camp was. Then we'd go to the 472 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,400 Kelsey Snelling: gas station and buy pastry cakes and candy bars. If 473 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,320 Kelsey Snelling: we had any leftover time, we'd hit up McDonald's for 474 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,680 Kelsey Snelling: quadruple topping Rollo McFlurries, and sometimes we'd even venture to 475 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,720 Kelsey Snelling: the grocery store for a few tubs of Nutella. At 476 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,040 Kelsey Snelling: the time, this ritual was the only thing getting me 477 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,880 Kelsey Snelling: through the stress and calorie restriction of working at Camp Shane. Casey, 478 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,240 Kelsey Snelling: on the other hand, felt an obligation to her new 479 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,360 Kelsey Snelling: body to stick to the Camp Shane diet, but she 480 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,040 Kelsey Snelling: sometimes got dragged along to other counselors binge missions. One 481 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,720 Kelsey Snelling: involved a Dunkin Donuts and a trash bag. 482 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,280 Casey: Dunkin Donuts has this policy, or at least they used to. 483 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,120 Casey: If you rolled up to the Dunkin Donuts drive through 484 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,920 Casey: at like eleven fifty five as they were closing because 485 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,560 Casey: they closed at midnight, they would give you donuts for free. 486 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:45,600 Casey: One time, I went with some counselors and we rolled 487 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:50,240 Casey: up and there was a literal like huge garbage bag. 488 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,000 Casey: I'm talking like four feet tall garbage bag, like very 489 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,080 Casey: big for those big industrial trash cans filled with Dunkin donuts. 490 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,880 Casey: It was literally like pounds and pounds and pounds, and 491 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,000 Casey: they brought it back and snuck it in. 492 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,080 Kelsey Snelling: The doughnut syndicate was a clear indication that things were 493 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,760 Kelsey Snelling: out of control. How were we supposed to help kids 494 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,160 Kelsey Snelling: develop healthy habits when many of us were dealing with 495 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,400 Kelsey Snelling: our own disordered eating? And eating disorders weren't the only 496 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,960 Kelsey Snelling: mental health issues campers were struggling with. Cole Perry was 497 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,760 Kelsey Snelling: a staff member in twenty ten and twenty eleven. 498 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:39,120 Cole: I think that eating disorders and or being overweight, or 499 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,680 Cole: having body issues, or having a hard time with food, 500 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,840 Cole: They're not a singular issue by any means. I think 501 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:51,959 Cole: that those issues are often fueled by depression, self esteem issues, anxiety. 502 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,560 Cole: They relate to each other very heavily, and I think 503 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,600 Cole: a lot of the kids that came to Camp Shane 504 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,200 Cole: definitely had one or the other. 505 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,400 Kelsey Snelling: Cole was the camp videographer. They didn't directly oversee any campers, 506 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,640 Kelsey Snelling: but they got to know many of the kids quite 507 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,960 Kelsey Snelling: well as they walked the grounds each day gathering footage 508 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,640 Kelsey Snelling: for promotional videos. 509 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,840 Cole: At Camp Shane, there was definitely a lot of kids 510 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,480 Cole: who had a lot of self esteem hardship, and a 511 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:24,040 Cole: lot of them were bullied in school. A lot of 512 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:25,920 Cole: them got made fun of. A lot of them had 513 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,960 Cole: parents who were upset with the fact that they were 514 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,200 Cole: not a skinny kid and would shame them. They were 515 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,000 Cole: looked at as a product that could be changed. 516 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,880 Kelsey Snelling: That mentality wasn't just the fault of the camp. Most 517 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,760 Kelsey Snelling: kids were receiving the message that they'd better lose weight 518 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,720 Kelsey Snelling: all year round, sometimes from their own families. After all, 519 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,680 Kelsey Snelling: these kids wouldn't be at Camp Shane if their parents 520 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,920 Kelsey Snelling: didn't sign them up and bring them there. There's one 521 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,760 Kelsey Snelling: example of this that really struck me. One of my 522 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,240 Kelsey Snelling: campers was thin but still sent to Shane to lose weight. 523 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,520 Kelsey Snelling: Her brother was sent too. Their mom told them whoever 524 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,000 Kelsey Snelling: lost the most weight would get a five hundred dollars 525 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,879 Kelsey Snelling: gift card at the end of the summer. There were 526 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,040 Kelsey Snelling: plenty of parents who bribed their kids with shopping sprees, 527 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:24,560 Kelsey Snelling: gifts and vacations and somehow had absolutely no idea how 528 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:31,120 Kelsey Snelling: messed up it all was. Pretty quickly into that summer, 529 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,480 Kelsey Snelling: the pressure of caring for a bunch of tween girls 530 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,720 Kelsey Snelling: was taking a toll on me. Us counselors were acting 531 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,960 Kelsey Snelling: as parents and coaches and nutritionists and therapists for dozens 532 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,360 Kelsey Snelling: of kids at once, in many cases, while still being 533 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,279 Kelsey Snelling: kids ourselves. Even if campers wanted to talk to their 534 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,840 Kelsey Snelling: parents about what they were going through while at camp, 535 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,720 Kelsey Snelling: they couldn't. The whole summer, campers didn't have their cell phones. 536 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,239 Kelsey Snelling: They were taken away on the first day, supposedly to 537 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,440 Kelsey Snelling: promote a fun environment where kids aren't just sitting around 538 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,759 Kelsey Snelling: texting all day. Kids could use corded landlines to call 539 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,920 Kelsey Snelling: their parents once a week, but counselors would be standing 540 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,280 Kelsey Snelling: steps away, listening in on the conversation. If the camper 541 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,600 Kelsey Snelling: said anything negative, counselors were supposed to hang up the phone. 542 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,439 Kelsey Snelling: I ignored this rule, but the fact that it even 543 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,600 Kelsey Snelling: existed is absurd and left us counselors offering what emotional 544 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:28,600 Kelsey Snelling: support we could. 545 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,359 Cole: You're basically taking care of this kid. You are their 546 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,840 Cole: parent for twelve weeks. They look up to you for 547 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,520 Cole: absolutely everything. They are going to you for When should 548 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,000 Cole: they eat food? When should they go to sleep? What 549 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,399 Cole: am I doing? When they're going to you for all 550 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,160 Cole: of their love and care that they want from a 551 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,120 Cole: parent that they're not receiving at home. You are everything 552 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:51,839 Cole: to them as a staff member at a summer camp, 553 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,839 Cole: and especially at Camp Shane, because these kids are not 554 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,000 Cole: getting what they need from their parents most of the time. 555 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,839 Kelsey Snelling: Remember I was freshly twenty one, and I'll be the 556 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,279 Kelsey Snelling: first to say that at that age I was not 557 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,360 Kelsey Snelling: equipped for the things that were thrown at me. I 558 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,200 Kelsey Snelling: had a camper run up to me screaming about how 559 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,880 Kelsey Snelling: another camper was cutting with a razor in the shower. 560 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,160 Kelsey Snelling: My co counselor was battling a serious case of bulimia, 561 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,840 Kelsey Snelling: and there was absolutely no support for her, for me, 562 00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,120 Kelsey Snelling: or any of us. And on top of all of that, 563 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,360 Kelsey Snelling: it might not be surprising to hear that threats of 564 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:35,920 Kelsey Snelling: suicide were popping up among campers. About three weeks into camp, 565 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,040 Kelsey Snelling: the head counselor is called a staff meeting. We were 566 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,879 Kelsey Snelling: told that an eighteen year old male camper had been 567 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,480 Kelsey Snelling: sexually inappropriate with a thirteen year old girl at camp. 568 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,480 Kelsey Snelling: The male camper was not asked to leave because he 569 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,560 Kelsey Snelling: had a bit of a developmental disability and the higher 570 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,200 Kelsey Snelling: ups didn't want him to feel bad. That evening happened 571 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,319 Kelsey Snelling: to be my night off, so my friends and I 572 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,560 Kelsey Snelling: went to the diner. I ordered the brownie sundae I 573 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:08,000 Kelsey Snelling: loved so much and overwhelmed, cried into it. Sitting with 574 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,960 Kelsey Snelling: me was Bobby, my friend Amy, and Cole. It felt 575 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:15,440 Kelsey Snelling: abundantly clear that no one was going to protect our 576 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,360 Kelsey Snelling: kids and that that responsibility fell on us alone, though 577 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,600 Kelsey Snelling: we were powerless. It was a heavy and hopeless weight. 578 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,040 Kelsey Snelling: There was a silence between tears and that's when Cole 579 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:35,000 Kelsey Snelling: announced they were quitting, along with the other videographer, Danielle. 580 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,000 Kelsey Snelling: For the two of them, the incident with the young 581 00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,560 Kelsey Snelling: girl was the last straw. 582 00:37:41,540 --> 00:37:43,120 Cole: So we were just waiting to see if anybody had 583 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,239 Cole: said anything about like the police were called, maybe a 584 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,120 Cole: professional was called to talk to the kid, or like, 585 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,879 Cole: were the girl's parents even called. Absolutely nothing, to our 586 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,080 Cole: knowledge was there that should have been done for this girl. 587 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:02,919 Cole: So we just were like, what do we do. We 588 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,120 Cole: are here as a videography team promoting this camp and 589 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:10,680 Cole: it is our job to promote a camp now that 590 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,840 Cole: is essentially condoning behavior that we don't agree with, that 591 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,560 Cole: is actually really fucked up behavior. So we just didn't 592 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,560 Cole: feel good about being there. And Danielle really, the point 593 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,160 Cole: for me that like drove it home when she was like, 594 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,480 Cole: I have a young daughter if I ever sent her 595 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,160 Cole: to a camp and this happened to her, and nobody 596 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,479 Cole: called me about it, like I would raise hell, I wouldn't, 597 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,799 Cole: I don't even know how I would react. And I was just like, 598 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:40,880 Cole: you're right, like that's absolutely fucking terrible. And she was like, 599 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,040 Cole: I have to leave, like I just I can't be 600 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,359 Cole: here anymore. I have to go. And I was just like, 601 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,560 Cole: you're right, like we're leaving, pack up your stuff. 602 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,120 Kelsey Snelling: Looking back, knowing what I know now about Camp Shane, 603 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:59,840 Kelsey Snelling: this situation wasn't just one egregious misstep. It was a 604 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,120 Kelsey Snelling: whole series of poor judgments, starting with letting in kids 605 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,200 Kelsey Snelling: that had higher needs than the camp staff could handle. 606 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,719 Kelsey Snelling: Then add on top of that, not supervising campers enough, 607 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,480 Kelsey Snelling: not training staff to prevent these situations from occurring, not 608 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,880 Kelsey Snelling: kicking out campers when they should have definitely been kicked out, 609 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,000 Kelsey Snelling: and then not providing support to the victim. 610 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:28,960 Cole: I wish I knew what David told himself in order 611 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,080 Cole: to go to sleep at night. 612 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,960 Kelsey Snelling: A note to listeners. Since this episode first aired, new 613 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:43,120 Kelsey Snelling: information has come to light. An employee from twenty eleven 614 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,120 Kelsey Snelling: reached out to say that the police were notified about 615 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,520 Kelsey Snelling: the situation. The source claims that the police ended the 616 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:53,360 Kelsey Snelling: investigation without bringing any charges against the male camper, but 617 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,080 Kelsey Snelling: the timeline and extent of police involvement remains unclear. 618 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,759 Kelsey Snelling: You might remember when I mentioned my Camp Shame contract 619 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,400 Kelsey Snelling: had a completion stipend. David would pay counselors half of 620 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,800 Kelsey Snelling: their paycheck at the midpoint of the summer. The final 621 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,080 Kelsey Snelling: half of their payment was to be received at the 622 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,799 Kelsey Snelling: end of the summer. So if counselors quit before one 623 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,520 Kelsey Snelling: of those two payments, like Cole and Danielle did, they were shit 624 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,520 Kelsey Snelling: out of luck. They never received payment for the work 625 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,280 Kelsey Snelling: that they did put in, and tons of staff members, 626 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,840 Kelsey Snelling: despite this system, quit. By the end of the summer, 627 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,480 Kelsey Snelling: Camp Shane was operating on a skeleton crew, and as 628 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,400 Kelsey Snelling: the session neared its close, counselors were suspiciously fired. This 629 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:49,280 Kelsey Snelling: happened summer after summer, including twenty eleven. Here's Casey. 630 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,080 Casey: He would fire people at the end of every camp 631 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,040 Casey: session so he wouldn't have to pay them. And we're 632 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,640 Casey: talking like twelve hundred dollars like it was, and you know, 633 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,560 Casey: and kids paid something like nine grand to go there 634 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:08,520 Casey: for a few weeks, and so you know, to withhold 635 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,760 Casey: of thousand bucks from like a twenty year old kid 636 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,359 Casey: who just worked for all these weeks seemed a little 637 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,560 Casey: ridiculous to me, and I definitely was like, well, that's 638 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,160 Casey: not going to be me, because I'm going to follow 639 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:27,000 Casey: the rules and be good and you know, show who 640 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:27,920 Casey: I am. 641 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,360 Kelsey Snelling: One of the people who got fired just before payday 642 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:38,560 Kelsey Snelling: was Casey. Casey wasn't interested in hooking up or drinking 643 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,359 Kelsey Snelling: after hours like some of the other counselors. She was 644 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,600 Kelsey Snelling: really trying to make a difference with her kids. She's 645 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,279 Kelsey Snelling: the one who just said. 646 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,000 Casey: That's not going to be me because I'm going to 647 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,160 Casey: follow the rules. 648 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,200 Kelsey Snelling: It all started during the last week of camp when 649 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,239 Kelsey Snelling: she took a day trip to New York City with 650 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,400 Kelsey Snelling: a group of counselors on their day off. On the 651 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,720 Kelsey Snelling: way back from their day of debauchery, as often happens 652 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,120 Kelsey Snelling: when driving in or around New York City, they hit traffic. 653 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:11,840 Kelsey Snelling: Casey was driving. 654 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,719 Casey: Curfew was midnight for the counselors and it was one 655 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:20,239 Casey: in the morning for group leaders, so I knew I 656 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,719 Casey: was okay, but I was worried about getting the counselors 657 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,640 Casey: back on time, and anyway, we rolled up to camp 658 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,480 Casey: and it was a negligible amount of minutes that we 659 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,520 Casey: were late. So we went to the girl's head counselor's 660 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:40,360 Casey: office and everyone was extremely apologetic that we ran into traffic. 661 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,160 Casey: It was an accident and I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. 662 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,120 Casey: I felt bad, but I was also like, wow, this sucks. 663 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,600 Casey: We're probably gonna get a slap on the wrist. And 664 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,759 Casey: so I went back to the bunk. Woke up the 665 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,880 Casey: next morning and I was called into the office again 666 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,359 Casey: and she was just she looked at me and she 667 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:10,120 Casey: was like, you're done, and she slapped a piece of 668 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,200 Casey: paper in front of me and like made me sign it. 669 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,000 Casey: It was a termination paper, and I remember my heart 670 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:17,839 Casey: was beating so fast, and I was like, what does 671 00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,000 Casey: this mean. She was like, get off camp as soon 672 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,080 Casey: as possible, is what this means. And I've said, well, 673 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,279 Casey: I mean all my stuff is in my bunk. She 674 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,080 Casey: was like, yeah, don't care. You can just grab it 675 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:30,840 Casey: and here's trash bags. 676 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,399 Kelsey Snelling: It was a flimsy excuse. People came in late all 677 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:41,800 Kelsey Snelling: the time. It wasn't a fireable offense, at least based 678 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,040 Kelsey Snelling: on precedent, and Casey hadn't even missed her own curfew, 679 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,600 Kelsey Snelling: but she felt like there was nothing she could do. 680 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,839 Kelsey Snelling: She went to her room, collected her things, and then 681 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,240 Kelsey Snelling: got picked up by a staffer in a golf cart 682 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:59,000 Kelsey Snelling: to remove her from campgrounds. But just in those few minutes, 683 00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,000 Kelsey Snelling: word had spread to Casey's campers and they were not 684 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,640 Kelsey Snelling: going to let her leave without putting up a fight. 685 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:11,440 Casey: And then like this swarm of kids runs out of 686 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:16,640 Casey: like all these buildings and they were just like stop 687 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,719 Casey: the golf cart and they just surrounded me and they 688 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,239 Casey: were like jump, jump jump. I told him, I was like, 689 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,920 Casey: can you stop. I want to say goodbye to my kids. 690 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,880 Casey: I was like, they're my kids. I need to say goodbye. 691 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,200 Casey: He was like I can't, I can't, and he was 692 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,719 Casey: so nervous. He's like I'm not supposed to. And I 693 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,920 Casey: was like, well, you know what, I'm gonna jump and 694 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,560 Casey: he was like ah, and the kids were like jump 695 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,840 Casey: jump and so I did. And then they just flocked 696 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,920 Casey: around me and just huge hugs, all these tears and 697 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:50,279 Casey: they're like, don't let them do this to you. And 698 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,040 Casey: it was like it was like a lot of love 699 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,839 Casey: and support and I was very overwhelmed. 700 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,719 Kelsey Snelling: Casey was fired days before last payday. She never got 701 00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:06,520 Kelsey Snelling: that completion stipend. You may be wondering at this point, 702 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,440 Kelsey Snelling: why didn't we all just leave? Why didn't I leave? 703 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,120 Kelsey Snelling: There were red flags from the very first day, and 704 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,880 Kelsey Snelling: the pay was a joke anyway. I spent eleven weeks 705 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:23,520 Kelsey Snelling: straight overwhelmed, overworked, and underfed. I talked to my sister 706 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,839 Kelsey Snelling: about this. Did you ever consider quitting? And why did 707 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:28,439 Kelsey Snelling: you not quit? 708 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:34,480 Robin: Oh boy, there were many times I thought about quitting. Honestly, 709 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,719 Robin: if you hadn't been a counselor, I think I would 710 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:41,680 Robin: have been out of there because it was just too 711 00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:47,560 Robin: overwhelming for one person to process without having somebody that 712 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:52,680 Robin: they trusted to talk through it with. What kept me 713 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,880 Robin: there at the end of the day is like knowing 714 00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,640 Robin: that it would be easy for me to walk away, 715 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,279 Robin: but that my campers would still be there, and that 716 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,480 Robin: I trusted myself more than I trusted the quote unquote 717 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:11,400 Robin: professional staff to give them a memorable and positive experience. 718 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:17,080 Robin: So you know that's not great. I have no background 719 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,680 Robin: in this, I have no training on how to deal 720 00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,480 Robin: with some of this trauma and these like really challenging 721 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:30,960 Robin: situations that campers are coming from, and yet just by 722 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:38,600 Robin: being a moderately mature and like sensitive person, I felt 723 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,319 Robin: like I could change their experience if even a little bit. 724 00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,200 Kelsey Snelling: Bobby and I made it the entire summer, and once 725 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,080 Kelsey Snelling: campers were gone and the days of cleanup had gone by, 726 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,280 Kelsey Snelling: we collected our pathetic paychecks and left with zero desire 727 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:55,240 Kelsey Snelling: to ever go back. 728 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:04,719 Robin: I realized that camp had really no understanding of the 729 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,680 Robin: situation its campers were in. It certainly didn't have the 730 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,560 Robin: solutions that they needed, and it didn't really seem like 731 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,799 Robin: owners were invested in making it better. They had a 732 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,560 Robin: model that worked and they were sticking to it. I 733 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:25,960 Robin: felt like for a short period of time, all I 734 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,960 Robin: thought about was food. That was like a new thing. Luckily, 735 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,520 Robin: I kind of with time got out of that stage, 736 00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,920 Robin: but I completely looked at food differently and not in 737 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:37,960 Robin: a good way. 738 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:44,799 Kelsey Snelling: After the summer ended, I was messed up for a while. Depression? PTSD? 739 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,200 Kelsey Snelling: I never got an official diagnosis. Camp Shane felt like 740 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:53,560 Kelsey Snelling: a fever dream. What I saw left me exhausted and empty. 741 00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,560 Kelsey Snelling: I felt like I couldn't go to the police necessarily, 742 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,759 Kelsey Snelling: but maybe I could create something that would reveal what 743 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,840 Kelsey Snelling: was happening to these kids, something that would expose this place, 744 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,480 Kelsey Snelling: which is just one cog in a huge societal machine 745 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,279 Kelsey Snelling: that teaches people to feel shame about their bodies. So 746 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:18,520 Kelsey Snelling: I started interviewing everyone i could. I've also wondered about 747 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,880 Kelsey Snelling: Simon's role in all of this. Despite his missteps, nearly 748 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,120 Kelsey Snelling: every person I've spoken to characterizes him as the absolute 749 00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,839 Kelsey Snelling: heart and soul of the community and magic of Camp Shane. 750 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,600 Kelsey Snelling: I'm left wondering how someone so revered could also allow 751 00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,560 Kelsey Snelling: such terrible things to happen. But maybe Simon was in 752 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,799 Kelsey Snelling: the same position as me, financially under David's thumb and 753 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,400 Kelsey Snelling: emotionally bound to Camp Shane through the campers. Maybe Simon 754 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,680 Kelsey Snelling: was exhausted and depleted, but was sticking around to make 755 00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:58,759 Kelsey Snelling: sure things didn't get worse. Next time on Camp Shane. 756 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:03,360 Kellye: Finally we got connected and Sadie is on the phone 757 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,360 Kellye: with her dad at the time, and she just breaks 758 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,359 Kellye: out crying, come get me, come get me, please, come 759 00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:11,520 Kellye: get me. She told her dad. She said she was scared. 760 00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:16,319 Kelsey Snelling: We reached out to David Ettenberg, his wife Ziporah Janowski, 761 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,600 Kelsey Snelling: and Simon Greenwood for comment. At the time of this recording, 762 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,360 Kelsey Snelling: we have not received a reply. If you or someone 763 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:25,919 Kelsey Snelling: you love is struggling with an eating disorder, wou can 764 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:29,360 Kelsey Snelling: call the free hotline of the National Alliance for Eating Disorders. 765 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,319 Kelsey Snelling: The number is one eight s ixty six six six 766 00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:37,040 Kelsey Snelling: two one two three five. Camp Shame is a production 767 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:41,839 Kelsey Snelling: of iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host Kelsey Snelling. Camp Shame 768 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:47,280 Kelsey Snelling: is produced by Brittany Martinez, Taylor Williamson, Sarah Schleede, Luci Jones, 769 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,560 Kelsey Snelling: and Alyia Yates Grau. Our editor is Courtenay Hameister, with 770 00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:57,000 Kelsey Snelling: additional editorial support from Lindsey Kratochwill and Grace Lynch. Our 771 00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,520 Kelsey Snelling: executive producers are Jenny Kaplan, Emily Rudder and me Kelsey Snelling. 772 00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:07,600 Kelsey Snelling: For iHeartMedia, our executive producer is Cristina Everett. Fact checking 773 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,920 Kelsey Snelling: done by Madeline Gore, Luci Jones, Paloma Moreno Jimenez, Lauren Williams, 774 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:17,440 Kelsey Snelling: and Fiona Pestana. Our theme music is produced by Sean Petell. 775 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,960 Kelsey Snelling: Listen and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or 776 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,640 Kelsey Snelling: wherever you get your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram at 777 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:30,120 Kelsey Snelling: camp Shane. That's with an M. If you or anyone 778 00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:32,239 Kelsey Snelling: you know went to Camp Shane, reach out with your 779 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:33,799 Kelsey Snelling: camp stories