Speaker 1: Welcome in Wins and Lost his podcast. We have been
Speaker 1: rolling up a lot of these interviews of late with
Speaker 1: a great bevy of fascinating people in the world of sports,
Speaker 1: media and politics. We are joined now by the Senator
Speaker 1: from Texas, one of the senators from Texas. He is
Speaker 1: Ted Cruz, Senator Cruz. It's super Bowl week. People may
Speaker 1: be listening to this well after the Super Bowl. So
Speaker 1: I'll put you on the spot early with a tough question.
Speaker 1: Who do you think gets it done here? Do you
Speaker 1: think the Chiefs or do you think that the Bucks
Speaker 1: are going to be the Super Bowl champ when the
Speaker 1: NFL season finishes, Well, I think we're gonna have a
Speaker 1: close game and uh Brady has certainly shown an ability
Speaker 1: to pull it out against impossible odds. That being said,
Speaker 1: Mahomes is a is a beast and so so if
Speaker 1: you if you push me, I'd say it's probably Kansas
Speaker 1: Cities game. We have spent a lot of time on
Speaker 1: this show, as I know you have seen, and we've
Speaker 1: interacted a decent amount on social media, pushing as hard
Speaker 1: as we possibly can for sports to be played, not
Speaker 1: just pro sports, high school sports, college sports. How important
Speaker 1: do you think it has been for sports too, in
Speaker 1: many ways lead the way in showing how things are
Speaker 1: able to get done in America as opposed to curling
Speaker 1: up in the fetal position and saying the challenges are
Speaker 1: too are too much, we can't find a way to
Speaker 1: get through and continue our business, continue our play during COVID. Well, look,
Speaker 1: I think it is important that that people be able
Speaker 1: to go to their jobs, go to work, provide for
Speaker 1: their kids, provide for their families, and people are seeing
Speaker 1: through sports that it's possible that it can happen. Listen.
Speaker 1: I think the NBA, the way they did the bubble
Speaker 1: for the playoffs last year was was very well done.
Speaker 1: I mean that the fact that they pulled it off
Speaker 1: right in fairly early in the pandemic was was impressive. Uh,
Speaker 1: And I think it was. You know, it's a contrast
Speaker 1: contrast that's say two movies. I'm a huge movie buff.
Speaker 1: I love movies. You know, Hollywood is essentially shut down,
Speaker 1: Broadway is shut down. You know, think of of the
Speaker 1: thousands of people who are unemployed. And you know, not
Speaker 1: just big, big, fancy movie stars who have the resources
Speaker 1: to to make it through it, but you know, people
Speaker 1: who work on lighting and gaffers and carpenters and electricians
Speaker 1: who the entire industry is devastated and and thankfully sports
Speaker 1: has done a better job of of showing that that
Speaker 1: that we can try to be safe and protect people,
Speaker 1: but but not utterly destroy their livelihoods at the same time.
Speaker 1: It is really emblematic I think of where America has
Speaker 1: gone that you now hear people say it's brave and
Speaker 1: courageous when people say we can't do something right. I mean,
Speaker 1: and you know, your family has an immigrant background as well,
Speaker 1: like like most people who were in America on some
Speaker 1: level came here from somewhere else. Right. The idea that
Speaker 1: we are now praising people when they say, oh, it's
Speaker 1: impossible to do something is fundamentally to me, the opposite
Speaker 1: of what America should stand for. I think that's right.
Speaker 1: And if you look at different jurisdictions, there as some
Speaker 1: jurisdictions that have shut everything down. And and you know,
Speaker 1: if you're a restaurant owner in New York City, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it is just unconscionable what they've done. They've
Speaker 1: just destroyed small businesses. You know that that sometimes may
Speaker 1: have been built by two three generations of families, and
Speaker 1: you've seen politicians just cavalierly shut them down. Um, I
Speaker 1: think we ought to be able to walk and shootgum.
Speaker 1: At the same time, we can't totally eliminate risk, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, if you if you know, I guess we
Speaker 1: could all lock ourselves in a bubble and never never
Speaker 1: interact with with anyone on planet Earth, and that would
Speaker 1: that would reduce risk. But that's not a not a
Speaker 1: world anyone who wants to live in. And and so
Speaker 1: I think we need some some common sense. Um. And
Speaker 1: and I will say I think Texas by and large
Speaker 1: has followed that path where we've taken the pandemic seriously,
Speaker 1: but we've also small businesses to be able to open
Speaker 1: and and a restaurant spreads out a little bit more.
Speaker 1: I mean, you take reasonable protective steps, but you don't
Speaker 1: just obliterate people's entire livelihoods. You know. It's it's a
Speaker 1: fascinating window into the importance of federalism. And I don't
Speaker 1: know in our lives that it has ever mattered more
Speaker 1: who the governor of your state happened to be than
Speaker 1: right now right, and who the mayor of your city
Speaker 1: might have been. Because we've got all these different little
Speaker 1: laboratories to deal with COVID, and you mentioned Texas. I
Speaker 1: think Florida and Texas, among the big states, have clearly
Speaker 1: done the best at balancing risk while also maintaining people's
Speaker 1: ability to continue their livelihood. And you contrast that with
Speaker 1: New York and with California, and it's not a surprise.
Speaker 1: I was looking at the data on net migrations. The
Speaker 1: three states I live in, Tennessee, the three states that
Speaker 1: have gained the most residents during this whole mess of
Speaker 1: COVID Tennessee, Texas, and Florida. What do they all have
Speaker 1: in common? They have figured out a way to keep
Speaker 1: businesses open while also trying to protect their residents. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: people are fleeing from New York, Illinois, and California, three
Speaker 1: of the most restrictive places in the entire country. It's
Speaker 1: an interesting laboratory to study their response and see who
Speaker 1: has done the best job in a way that many
Speaker 1: countries who are more national in scope might not have
Speaker 1: had those different laboratories to examine. Yeah, that that that
Speaker 1: that is exactly right. Um. You know a stat that
Speaker 1: that I've cited for some time is the cost of
Speaker 1: a one way U haul from California to Texas. It
Speaker 1: used to be it was three more to go from
Speaker 1: California to Texas that it was to go the other
Speaker 1: way around. It's actually risen more than that. So right now,
Speaker 1: to get a twenty four ft U haul from San
Speaker 1: Francisco to Austin, Texas cost five thousand dollars. To take
Speaker 1: the same truck back cost nine eight six dollars because
Speaker 1: all the traffic is going one way. That's right, nobody
Speaker 1: go on the up. It's fascinating. That's actually a really
Speaker 1: great data point. That pathway that you're talking about Senator
Speaker 1: crews from Austin, I mean from San Francisco to Austin.
Speaker 1: Also San Francisco to Miami, San Francisco, Nashville. Big tech
Speaker 1: is starting to break up that corporate hegemony that had
Speaker 1: existed in San Francisco. I know you have a lot
Speaker 1: of concerns about this, as do I. I don't try
Speaker 1: to get incredibly partisan on a day to day basis,
Speaker 1: certainly not with my shows. But the thing that I
Speaker 1: believe in is the marketplace of ideas. And I don't
Speaker 1: think there's any doubt by anyone who is active on
Speaker 1: social media that we don't have a full fledged marketplace
Speaker 1: of ideas in the American ecosystem like we have in
Speaker 1: past years. What should be done to big tech companies
Speaker 1: that are making the decision to pull Parlor off of
Speaker 1: their servers, like Amazon did to not allow certain apps
Speaker 1: to be available at Apple or at Google. This idea
Speaker 1: of hey, you don't have the right to spread your
Speaker 1: particular viewpoint if it conflates or conflicts with ours is
Speaker 1: to me fundamentally scary because, as you know, many of
Speaker 1: the great ideas that emerge in American thought initially were
Speaker 1: considered to be ludicrous and absurd, but because of the
Speaker 1: marketplace of ideas, they were able to gain cogency and acceptance.
Speaker 1: And that's how our country evolves in an intelligent and
Speaker 1: efficacious manner. Look, I think that is exactly right. And
Speaker 1: I think the power of big tech uh is the
Speaker 1: single greatest threat we have to free speech in this country.
Speaker 1: And it's the greatest threat we have to our democracy.
Speaker 1: That that we right now have a handful of Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley billionaires with with almost total monopoly power over over
Speaker 1: political discourse and just about every other form of discourse today,
Speaker 1: and and and they're getting more and more brazen in
Speaker 1: how they use that power to silence those views they
Speaker 1: don't like, in the ample by those views they do.
Speaker 1: And it's you know, they've always been biased journalists. That
Speaker 1: that that that's not new in the world. From the
Speaker 1: very first time the first journalists were carving words on
Speaker 1: a stone tablet, there were biased journalists. What's different is
Speaker 1: that that big tech has power that that William Randolph
Speaker 1: Hurst at the height of yellow journalism, could not have imagined.
Speaker 1: Because they control seventy plus percent of people's political news
Speaker 1: is coming online, it's coming through social media, and and
Speaker 1: their bias is invisible as well. If they don't like
Speaker 1: what you say, you simply disappear. They can shadow bang you,
Speaker 1: they can throttle you, and there's zero accountability. And and
Speaker 1: we've seen just the last few months, we saw we
Speaker 1: saw Facebook and Twitter both blocking The New York Post,
Speaker 1: the fourth largest newspaper, decreed, we're shutting you down. And
Speaker 1: we've seen them d platform. The President of the United
Speaker 1: States just said, Okay, we don't like Donald Trump. He's
Speaker 1: no longer allowed to speak. We've seen them, as you
Speaker 1: put it out, what they did to Parlor and what
Speaker 1: they did to Parlor was blatantly illegal and violated the
Speaker 1: antitrust laws. And I fully expect that they will pay
Speaker 1: a big judgment because because you had multiple competitors working
Speaker 1: together in concert to destroy another competitor, and and that
Speaker 1: that is illegal, and they don't care and and it
Speaker 1: is a massive threat. And unfortunately, right now with with
Speaker 1: Democrats in charge of Washington, the Democrats want big tech
Speaker 1: to do more of this, not less. They're in favor
Speaker 1: of big tech censorship and and so I expect the
Speaker 1: problem to get worse before it gets better. What's interesting,
Speaker 1: Senator Cruise about Parlor in particular, And we both have
Speaker 1: legal background, so I always try to talk for an
Speaker 1: audience that might not People say, well, if you violate
Speaker 1: Twitter's user agreement, then you don't have the right to
Speaker 1: speak to your audience through Twitter. And then so Parlor
Speaker 1: was actually created to guarantee that if people didn't have
Speaker 1: the ability to reach their audience through Twitter, they could
Speaker 1: start their own company which had a different genesis of
Speaker 1: what their ideas were going to be. And then Amazon
Speaker 1: Web Services, uh, and also Google and Apple. Amazon said
Speaker 1: we're not gonna host you. Google and Apple said we're
Speaker 1: not going to allow your app to be downloaded, and
Speaker 1: they effectively. I mean, I think this is an analogy
Speaker 1: that people can understand. It's a book burning by Amazon,
Speaker 1: which was a company that was founded to sell books.
Speaker 1: They have eliminated the largest amount of opinion from being
Speaker 1: able to be shared in America, probably in the twenty
Speaker 1: one century anywhere. No dictator could have made the decision
Speaker 1: that Jeff Bezos did to shut down as many people
Speaker 1: instantaneously as he did. Uh. And we've basically have created
Speaker 1: our own Chinese wall, but it's being now monitored by,
Speaker 1: as you said, billionaires in Silicon Valley. I think that's
Speaker 1: exactly right. And as I said, they're getting more and
Speaker 1: more brazen about it. Um. Now, how you solved it
Speaker 1: is a complicated question. I've spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: the last several years sharing multiple hearings in the Senate
Speaker 1: on censorship with big Tech and detailing, uh, detailing all
Speaker 1: the instances of censorship. We've seen the solution. Listen, nobody
Speaker 1: wants to see a federal government speech police. That would
Speaker 1: be a terrible thing. But there are solutions that that
Speaker 1: are consistent with law that also protect free speech. One solution,
Speaker 1: so right now, Big Tech has a special immunity from
Speaker 1: liability under what's called Section to thirty of the Communications
Speaker 1: Decency Act that that Congress gave it to Big Tech
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, and and it functions us like corporate welfare.
Speaker 1: It's a benefit that nobody else gets and only big
Speaker 1: Tech gets. The reason big Tech got that immunity from
Speaker 1: liability is because Congress understood that big Big Tech was
Speaker 1: going to be a neutral public forum. In other words,
Speaker 1: it wasn't gonna put its finger on the scale. It
Speaker 1: was gonna let people speak. And so the reasoning was, well,
Speaker 1: it's not fair to hold them liable for what other
Speaker 1: people are saying if it's a public forum where anyone
Speaker 1: can speak. Well, big Tech has decided to abandon that.
Speaker 1: They are nakedly and brazenly censoring. And if they're going
Speaker 1: to do that, there's no reason on earth that they
Speaker 1: should have a special immunity from liability nobody else gets. Secondly,
Speaker 1: the antitrust laws. By any measure, big Tech is bigger.
Speaker 1: It's more powerful than a T and T was when
Speaker 1: it was broken up under the anti trust laws. It's
Speaker 1: bigger and more powerful than standard oil was when it
Speaker 1: was broken up under the antitrust laws and and it
Speaker 1: has long been existing laws that you cannot abuse monopoly power,
Speaker 1: which is what they're doing. And then the third avenue
Speaker 1: that that that I think needs to be pursued. It
Speaker 1: is a claim that that that sounds in in fraud
Speaker 1: and consumer protection, and it's essentially this the agreement you
Speaker 1: make with big tech when you sign up for a
Speaker 1: social media account. The promise they're making to you is
Speaker 1: that if you follow someone, you'll see what they have
Speaker 1: to say, and if they follow you, they'll see what
Speaker 1: you have to say. Big Tech is breaking that promise.
Speaker 1: They're deciding if they don't like what you have to say.
Speaker 1: The people who have chosen I want to follow Kate
Speaker 1: Clay Travis, well, if they don't like what you have
Speaker 1: to say, they don't get to hear what you say,
Speaker 1: even though they want to hear what you say. And
Speaker 1: and that is fundamentally fraudulent and deceptive. And I think
Speaker 1: with the Biden administration, you're not going to see any
Speaker 1: federal government pressure on this, So it's gonna have to
Speaker 1: come from state attorneys general. It's gonna have to come
Speaker 1: in the states, and it's gonna have to come from
Speaker 1: private litigation, and I expect quite a bit litigation, particularly
Speaker 1: as a big tech gets more and more brazen. I
Speaker 1: think we're gonna see more and more litigation directed that
Speaker 1: you'll be fascinated by this. I've talked a little bit
Speaker 1: about it on the show. We had Donald Trump on
Speaker 1: this radio program, OutKick the coverage that that I most twice.
Speaker 1: The first time that we had him on, we wrote
Speaker 1: about it a lot of OutKick UH and Facebook. In
Speaker 1: the week after we had Trump on, we lost seventy
Speaker 1: percent of our Facebook traffic. Like you can watch if
Speaker 1: if we pull a graph and we show you we wrote,
Speaker 1: you know, four or five different articles because he was
Speaker 1: talking about whether or not college football should play. To
Speaker 1: his credit in the White House's credit, they fought as
Speaker 1: hard as they possibly could to help us make sure
Speaker 1: that college football happens. Most of the stories that we
Speaker 1: were talking about him with were almost entirely sports related.
Speaker 1: We wrote about it, right the President United States comes
Speaker 1: on my show, We're going to write about it on
Speaker 1: the website that that I own as well, right to
Speaker 1: help share that information. We lost seventy p of our
Speaker 1: Facebook traffic UH and our data analysts said it was
Speaker 1: because Donald Trump's name was appearing in so many of
Speaker 1: our articles, and it was not a negative characterization, right.
Speaker 1: It was like President Trump is in favor of college
Speaker 1: football being played. Right, our data people went back and
Speaker 1: looked at it. That's Facebook. It's an unbelievable power that
Speaker 1: they have. As soon as we stopped writing about Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: over the next week, our traffic went right back up.
Speaker 1: But we can directly go to that and say they
Speaker 1: cost us tens of thousands of dollars in the way
Speaker 1: they responded to us writing about Donald Trump coming on
Speaker 1: the radio program. Now, one one thing we could say,
Speaker 1: if we were purely looking to maximize revenue, is we
Speaker 1: would say, oh, Facebook is dinging us. They are telling
Speaker 1: us we can't write anything positive about Donald Trump. As
Speaker 1: long as we don't, our revenue will stay the same.
Speaker 1: But the minute we go positive on Trump, our revenue collapsed.
Speaker 1: We can legitimately show you that him coming on our
Speaker 1: radio program cost us tens of thousands of dollars. That
Speaker 1: is powerful and and it is entirely consistent with the
Speaker 1: conduct they're doing in multiple other instances. You know, one
Speaker 1: of the hearings I shared in the Senate, Dr Robert
Speaker 1: Epstein testified. Uh. He is a psychologist, and he has
Speaker 1: done uh, just about the only empirical research on bias
Speaker 1: and Google searches and and he did it initially in
Speaker 1: twos sixteen where he examined Google searches and and the
Speaker 1: biased outcome that that leans to the left. And he
Speaker 1: concluded that Google's bias searches shifted two point six million
Speaker 1: votes to the Democrats, to Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: Now here's the interesting thing. Clay dr Epstein is not
Speaker 1: a Republican. He is a liberal Democrat who voted for
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton and and and who publicly campaigned for Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 1: And yet he was horrified that that big tech has
Speaker 1: the power to just manipulate voters and deceive them. And
Speaker 1: and that that was four years ago. They're they're much
Speaker 1: worse now because they feel that that nothing is holding
Speaker 1: the back, there are no limits. It is terrifying, fascinating,
Speaker 1: And I think the story of our age, the other
Speaker 1: big story of our age, I think big tech is
Speaker 1: one of the massive story censorship, cancel culture, the way
Speaker 1: that all of that roles together with identity politics. The
Speaker 1: other one is China. And to me, for the world
Speaker 1: of sports, what happened with Darryl Moray, who is down
Speaker 1: in Houston, in your home state of Texas, when he
Speaker 1: came out and supported Hong Kong democracy. The NBA, which
Speaker 1: wants to claim that it is a bastion of social
Speaker 1: justice warriordom, that they are worried about being on the
Speaker 1: right and wrong side of history. Amazing silence, right, Lebron James,
Speaker 1: who speaks out all the time, didn't have a word
Speaker 1: to say other than sometimes the First Amendment can be
Speaker 1: a bad thing, which is an amazing quote to have. Uh.
Speaker 1: Greg popa bitch who I'm gonna get to in a minute,
Speaker 1: Steve Kerr. They pop off on everything that the president
Speaker 1: was doing, Donald Trump. They don't say a word about China.
Speaker 1: So I want to circle around on on China a
Speaker 1: little bit, and in particular the NBA's relationship with China.
Speaker 1: Greg Popovich, Uh went after you. I saw quotes recently.
Speaker 1: I know Mark Cuban has come after you. Mark Cuban
Speaker 1: has has come after me for people out there, obviously
Speaker 1: Dallas Mavericks, Mark Cuban, as well as Greg Popovich of
Speaker 1: the San Antonio Spurs. Uh. When you hear Greg Popovitch,
Speaker 1: I know you're a basketball fan. I know you've liked
Speaker 1: to watch the NBA over the years. When you hear
Speaker 1: Greg Popovitch going after you, when Mark Cuban is going
Speaker 1: after you for your political opinions, but they won't say
Speaker 1: a word about genocide in China. About I saw recently
Speaker 1: an article I was reading today about forced rape of
Speaker 1: weaker women by by people in China, and they're using literal,
Speaker 1: literal slave labor to make their products. Nike is uh.
Speaker 1: The NBA has had their own factory of basketball uh
Speaker 1: in that province where the wagers are being held in
Speaker 1: concentration camps. How about that hypocrisy that they would not
Speaker 1: say a word about that, but they come after you
Speaker 1: for your political opinions. Well, it's it's massive hypocrisy. And
Speaker 1: and the the n b A and and pro sports
Speaker 1: in general made a big bet that there's a whole
Speaker 1: lot of money to be made in China, and they're
Speaker 1: willing to look the other way on on torture and
Speaker 1: murder and horrific human rights abuses because they stand to
Speaker 1: make a big buck. So so Daryl Morey sent a
Speaker 1: really mild tweet to start this all. Stand with Hong Kong,
Speaker 1: Stand Stand for liberty and democracy. I think it's what
Speaker 1: he said. Um and and by the way, he was right,
Speaker 1: because they've taken it away. Of course he was right.
Speaker 1: But but it illustrates a couple of things. Number One, look,
Speaker 1: you and I know who Darryl Mori is. I'm a
Speaker 1: die hard Rockets and I bleed Rockets read. But but
Speaker 1: most people in the country didn't know who Daryl Morey was.
Speaker 1: Frankly when he sent the tweet that that was not
Speaker 1: going to be heard by a whole lot of people
Speaker 1: until the Chinese communists lost their minds and they freaked
Speaker 1: out about it because so terrified of criticism. And and
Speaker 1: the one friendly amendment I'd make to what you just
Speaker 1: said is you said the NBA state silent about it. No,
Speaker 1: they did worse than state silent about it, which is
Speaker 1: they groveled an apology and they and by the way,
Speaker 1: what did what did? What did China do? It shut
Speaker 1: down all of the Rockets and NBA sales of of
Speaker 1: uniforms in China. Of course we used to have Yao Ming,
Speaker 1: so actually the Rockets a very popular team in China.
Speaker 1: They shut that all down. Lebron James blasted Maury for
Speaker 1: saying that he was defending China, said all more, he
Speaker 1: doesn't understand China. Really, Lebron, what is there to understand
Speaker 1: about concentration camps and murder and torture. But look, you
Speaker 1: understand what Lebron is interested in. You understand what Mark
Speaker 1: Cuban is interested in. They're interested in bucks. They're interested
Speaker 1: in Mark Cuban is making millions of dollars by making
Speaker 1: the communist government in China happy. And they have total
Speaker 1: control over whether Mark Cuban makes that money or not.
Speaker 1: And so the NBA, it's about the Benjamin's and and
Speaker 1: so you know, look this last NBA season when they
Speaker 1: had the ridiculous uh practice of putting all the NBA
Speaker 1: players having slogans on the back of their u uh
Speaker 1: back of their jerseys. You know, I and a number
Speaker 1: of other people said, okay, how about free Hong Kong. Yeah,
Speaker 1: how about remember Tanneman square. I mean, look, you're all
Speaker 1: for political speech. Oh no, no, no, no no, just the
Speaker 1: political speech that happens to agree with everything in your politics.
Speaker 1: That's the only speech you'll allow it. It's massive hypocrisy.
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you're a Houston Rockets fan. Um Die
Speaker 1: died in the wool, long time Houston Rockets in total
Speaker 1: sports question here for you. Do you think that the
Speaker 1: Rockets would have won the two championships that they did
Speaker 1: if Michael Jordan hadn't retired. That tells me that you
Speaker 1: are a huge Houston Rockets fan, because that's that's Houston
Speaker 1: Rocket fandom to the core. And listen. And I adored
Speaker 1: Jordan's I mean, I mean, it's it's I think Jordan
Speaker 1: is the greatest it's ever played on on on the
Speaker 1: Jordan Lebron debate. I don't even think it's close. But
Speaker 1: that's so ninety four when the Rockets won our first finals.
Speaker 1: I was at game seven when we beat the Knicks,
Speaker 1: when John Starks went oh for eleven. I mean it
Speaker 1: was and it was in the summit. Kilson had never
Speaker 1: won a championship at any sports and and and it
Speaker 1: will remain the sports highlight of my life. Where afterwards
Speaker 1: you had businessmen in three piece suits crying and hugging
Speaker 1: homeless man. I mean, it brought the city together. A
Speaker 1: la Juan was extraordinary. He dominated. Um. I've actually got
Speaker 1: sitting next to me in my office right now, a
Speaker 1: piece of the floor from from the from the summit
Speaker 1: signed by that ninety four Rockets. Oh that's awesome. Where
Speaker 1: were you sitting, by the way, how old were you
Speaker 1: in ninety four? So ninety four, I was twenty four.
Speaker 1: I was in law school, and I had the incredible
Speaker 1: good luck. I was working at a law firm in
Speaker 1: Houston as a summer associate called Baker Bots, and baker
Speaker 1: Bots happens to represent the Rockets. And I worked there
Speaker 1: two summers ninety four and ninety five, the two years
Speaker 1: we won the finals, and and so like. I went
Speaker 1: to the firm early on and I said, look, you
Speaker 1: don't need to take me out to launch or dinner.
Speaker 1: You know often when for the summer programs they wine
Speaker 1: and dine students quite a bit. I said, don't buy
Speaker 1: me a meal all all summer long. I'll have hot
Speaker 1: dogs at the Hot Ducks stand downstairs. Just get me
Speaker 1: to the games. That's all I ask is, I want
Speaker 1: to go to the games. And so I went to
Speaker 1: a bunch of the games, and and and it's kind
Speaker 1: of a funny story. So for Games seven, the firm
Speaker 1: was not going to send the summer associates to the game.
Speaker 1: They decided they were going to send the associates, the
Speaker 1: people who were already working at the firm there instead.
Speaker 1: And I went into the lawyer who was the kind
Speaker 1: of lead lawyer for the Rockets, and and I went
Speaker 1: in with another buddy of mind. We were both summer associates.
Speaker 1: And I said, uh I, I said, Mike um Amy
Speaker 1: and I we we've decided we've got to go to
Speaker 1: Game seven and and so we're just gonna go to
Speaker 1: a scalp or we're gonna buy tickets. We just we
Speaker 1: can't let this happen and not go. And and I said,
Speaker 1: you know, do you know any scalpers maybe where we
Speaker 1: could get some decent rates. And we just looked at him,
Speaker 1: and he looked at us for about thirty seconds in silence,
Speaker 1: and he just cracked up laughing. He's like, all right,
Speaker 1: damn it, I'll get you tickets, but you can't tell
Speaker 1: anyone else. And I said, done, done, And so I
Speaker 1: ended up getting tickets for for faith value was seventy
Speaker 1: five bucks. And I was seated right behind one of
Speaker 1: the backboards and I was seeing it kind of right
Speaker 1: to the side side of where Dr J and Bob
Speaker 1: Costas were broadcasting the game, and and actually part of
Speaker 1: The fun was when the during the commercial breaks, uh,
Speaker 1: dr J was bust In Costas going, man, you're Nick suck.
Speaker 1: That was the funniest part of the whole game, was
Speaker 1: just hearing dr J do that off camera. Fox Sports
Speaker 1: Radio has the best sports talk lineup in the nation.
Speaker 1: Catch all of our shows at Fox Sports Radio dot
Speaker 1: com and within the I Heart Radio app search f
Speaker 1: s R to listen live. That was an amazing run.
Speaker 1: So the NTO game seven, Patrick Ewing never gets it
Speaker 1: done out there for people. I mean, that was an
Speaker 1: amazing series and like you mentioned, John Starks just fell
Speaker 1: apart now the next year to help the Rockets argument.
Speaker 1: And by the way, this is the Wins and Losses Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Clay Travis. We're talking to Senator Ted Cruz of Texas.
Speaker 1: Jordan's came back, ended up losing that series to the
Speaker 1: Orlando Magic, and then you guys win a second title
Speaker 1: before Jordan wins. Is three in a row. For some
Speaker 1: guys out there are young, they may not remember that
Speaker 1: that era of nineties era NBA basketball, which by the way,
Speaker 1: is I think the peak, the absolute peak of the
Speaker 1: NBA in America. Well, I had always defined my perfect
Speaker 1: basketball game would be a game Rockets against the Bulls
Speaker 1: in the finals, game seven. Uh, to have the Rockets win,
Speaker 1: but to have Jordan's score a hundred points and break
Speaker 1: Wilts record. Yeah. And and I never was a Scottie
Speaker 1: Pippen fan, so I actually finished it off with and
Speaker 1: have Pippin playing for the Bulls tip the ball in
Speaker 1: accidentally in our bucket, the winning basket for us. Did
Speaker 1: you watch the Last Dance by the Way documentary? Every
Speaker 1: minute of it? And I think my favorite moment is
Speaker 1: when they play Gary Peyton talking about covering uh, covering
Speaker 1: Jordan and Jordan's laugh about you know, I think I
Speaker 1: could handle the of it was so real, it was incredible.
Speaker 1: It was. That's such a great nostalgic time back, like
Speaker 1: the Dennis Rodman stories. You knew in the nineties that
Speaker 1: those were great, but there's so much more fun. I mean,
Speaker 1: that nineties era Bowl team is I think the most
Speaker 1: beloved American sporting franchise ever. Right, you're a Rockets fan.
Speaker 1: I didn't grow up with a particular affinity for a team,
Speaker 1: but I was obsessed with the nineties arab Bles, and
Speaker 1: I think a huge number of people out there listening are,
Speaker 1: and it was because they were just such an exhilarating
Speaker 1: team to play and Jordan himself is I think that
Speaker 1: the signature achievement. I don't know if you go to
Speaker 1: a concert or you go to watch someone who has
Speaker 1: to put on a performance. He was so incredible every
Speaker 1: night that I don't think people really who haven't experienced him.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the Jordan's versus Lebron argument. The amount of
Speaker 1: intensity and effort he brought to bear, whether it was
Speaker 1: a random Tuesday night in the fourteenth game of the
Speaker 1: season or whether it was Game seven of the NBA
Speaker 1: Finals is unmatched I think ever in the history of basketball. Look,
Speaker 1: I completely agree, and where I think Jordan took it
Speaker 1: to another level is at the end of any game
Speaker 1: that was close, that mattered, you knew Jordan was going
Speaker 1: to have the ball, you knew he was going to
Speaker 1: take the shot, you knew he was going to be
Speaker 1: triple teamed, and you know he was gonna make it.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was you know that there's all the
Speaker 1: you know truisms, things like you know, ice water in
Speaker 1: the veins, but it's just it was a level of
Speaker 1: just stone cold killer that that. I mean, he would
Speaker 1: always always perform. By the way, I'll give you a
Speaker 1: a fantasy alternative universe, which is if you remember the Rockets,
Speaker 1: we had two years in a row. We had back
Speaker 1: to back number one draft picks. We picked Ralph Sampson
Speaker 1: first year, the second year we picked a la Juan.
Speaker 1: That draft that a la Juan came out. Jordan was
Speaker 1: also in the draft. A large one was drafted number one.
Speaker 1: The Bulls drafted Jordan number three. Sam Booie went number two.
Speaker 1: Who was washed in there between those two. I believe, yep,
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And and look, you can't fault Houston
Speaker 1: for drafting a la Juan. He was coming out of
Speaker 1: University of Houston. Vice slamm A Jamma. I mean it was.
Speaker 1: It was a great, great pick. But imagine if Houston
Speaker 1: had gone to the Bulls and said, will trade you
Speaker 1: Ralph Sampson, who we drafted the year earlier with the
Speaker 1: number one pick and he just one rookie of the year,
Speaker 1: will trade you Ralph Sampson for the number three pick.
Speaker 1: We could have drafted a la Juan and Jordan's that
Speaker 1: would have been. That would have been That would have
Speaker 1: been one hell of a team, even a little bit
Speaker 1: better than Bill Cartwright. I think in Bill Winnington, we're
Speaker 1: talking to Senator Ted Cruz. What do you think about
Speaker 1: James Harden. You're you're a Rockets fan. You had those
Speaker 1: moments in You've Gotten close. I know you had another
Speaker 1: game seven where you guys couldn't hit a three four
Speaker 1: for every dollar on the I mean that was probably
Speaker 1: tough for you to watch. That was twenty three miss
Speaker 1: threes in a row or whatever the heck it was. Um,
Speaker 1: what do you think about Harden going to Brooklyn? What
Speaker 1: do you think about the future of the Rockets? Oh,
Speaker 1: look at my heart is sad at at Harden leaving.
Speaker 1: He's one hell of an offensive force. You're right that
Speaker 1: game where we could only shoot threes? Like did nobody
Speaker 1: remember how to drive to the basket? Like like okay, fine,
Speaker 1: you're not hitting threes, Like do something else, damn it,
Speaker 1: get to the foul line. But but we couldn't do that.
Speaker 1: I'm sad to see hard and go because he's extraordinary
Speaker 1: and historic and the offensive outpit. But the last Cup
Speaker 1: three years is unmatched. I mean, the numbers you have
Speaker 1: to go back to to Chamberlain to find anything even
Speaker 1: close that being sad. Listen, I'm this This new team
Speaker 1: is kind of growing on me. I mean it's it's
Speaker 1: it came together kind of eclectically. But but you know,
Speaker 1: John wall if he if he can stay healthy, he
Speaker 1: looks like he's got speed, he's got agility. Oladipo is
Speaker 1: a heck of a player. Um Eric gordon As has
Speaker 1: been playing very strong, and I'm really liking Boogie Cousins.
Speaker 1: I mean, Boogie is you know, people forget before he
Speaker 1: got hurt that he was one hell of a ball
Speaker 1: player and he's he hustles and then and then we've
Speaker 1: got p J. Tucker, Christian Would who who I didn't
Speaker 1: really know till he till he came to Houston, but
Speaker 1: but would as planned. I think that the Rockets could
Speaker 1: surprise folks this year when it was supposed to be
Speaker 1: a rebuilding year. But but if we could actually stay healthy,
Speaker 1: I think there's a shot now also in Houston. And
Speaker 1: I know you're a Houston heiras area sports fan Deshaun
Speaker 1: Watson is all the rage right to talk about what
Speaker 1: should happen there. Let's pretend in a different world that
Speaker 1: you were not a politician and you owned the Houston Texans.
Speaker 1: What would you do with Deshaun Watson. Would you sit
Speaker 1: down with him and just try to figure out a
Speaker 1: way to work it out, or do you think at
Speaker 1: this point, based on all the reports out there, it's
Speaker 1: time to just see if you can get a king's
Speaker 1: ransom for him using Obviously the Matthew Stafford trade to
Speaker 1: the Rams is kind of a template of what value
Speaker 1: Deshaun Watson might carry. The question is is he persuadable? Uh?
Speaker 1: And and I don't know so, so I think at
Speaker 1: a minimum you have to sit down and talk with him.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen the reports that says, let's say
Speaker 1: you want to leave. That's obviously with the Rockets, what
Speaker 1: they were saying about Harden. With Harden, that certainly seemed
Speaker 1: to be the case. Um As a Texans fan, my
Speaker 1: my heart is grieving. I think Watson is is. I mean,
Speaker 1: he can move, he can throw. But that being said,
Speaker 1: I mean the Texans were J. J. Watt to you
Speaker 1: guys might lose J. J. Watt as well. The talk
Speaker 1: is that you're basically could be using losing two of
Speaker 1: the faces of the franchise. Well and and and we
Speaker 1: we let Dandrad Hopkins go for nothing, like you just
Speaker 1: handed him away, you know, one of the elite receivers
Speaker 1: in the league. We just said okay, by go. That
Speaker 1: was the moment actually that I started, like several buddies mine,
Speaker 1: we're texting each other just you know what the hell
Speaker 1: like like. And the problem is without a receiving corps.
Speaker 1: You know, for Watson, you can understand you're going four
Speaker 1: and twelve saying all right, get me out of here.
Speaker 1: I want to win. I don't necessarily fault him. What
Speaker 1: I'd like to see is the team go to Watson
Speaker 1: and say we're gonna build a Super Bowl contender team
Speaker 1: around you and make it so worried want to stay.
Speaker 1: But I don't know if that's doable right now. What
Speaker 1: about that the Houston Astros? Did you feel like the
Speaker 1: title was in any way? I know you talked about
Speaker 1: Houston not necessarily winning a lot of championships. When the
Speaker 1: Astros win that championship, did it feel in any way
Speaker 1: tainted by the reports that came out later about the
Speaker 1: signals from the dugout, the banging on the trash cans, those, uh,
Speaker 1: the fallout from that those titles. Yeah, of course it
Speaker 1: was and and and it Uh, that that was hard.
Speaker 1: I will say when we won the World Series in
Speaker 1: that that was an incredible, incredible that that whole playoffs.
Speaker 1: I was at games three, four, and five of the
Speaker 1: of the World Series, so all the Houston games, and
Speaker 1: and you know, there are moments in sports that are
Speaker 1: really beautiful. And if you remember what was happening in seen,
Speaker 1: Houston had just gone through Hurricane Harvey, and and it
Speaker 1: was this, you know, the second most costly natural disaster
Speaker 1: in US history. Was devastating and and there was at
Speaker 1: the time a a meme online of a guy in
Speaker 1: his living room sitting on a lawn chair with all
Speaker 1: the carpet ripped up, all the sheet rock ripped up,
Speaker 1: no furniture, a TV set playing the game, and he's
Speaker 1: standing in an Astro's jersey, cheering as his entire home
Speaker 1: has been destroyed. And and it said, this is why
Speaker 1: it matters. And I gotta say that victory parade, and
Speaker 1: I was part of the parade in Houston. We had
Speaker 1: a million people come out his first World Series. What
Speaker 1: everyone the only World Series who every won. But but
Speaker 1: it was it was a beautiful moment celebration for the
Speaker 1: city that that was incredibly powerful, and I love that team.
Speaker 1: Looked at the trash can banging and all of that.
Speaker 1: Of of course, it tarnishes it. And it just I
Speaker 1: think all Houston fans are just sad about it. And
Speaker 1: and you know, my daughter Katherine as a softball player,
Speaker 1: she's ted now. Um. I took her to Game five.
Speaker 1: So it was the day after her eighth birthday. It
Speaker 1: was October and game five, you remembers, the one that
Speaker 1: went to one thirty in the morning, was in screadible
Speaker 1: game and and and it was just Katherine and me.
Speaker 1: It was daddy daughter, just the two of us. And
Speaker 1: I told her that. I said, Katherine, you don't realize this,
Speaker 1: but you're gonna tell your grandkids you were here for
Speaker 1: the greatest baseball game in the history of the Houston Astros.
Speaker 1: And and and it was when the whole sign stealing
Speaker 1: scandal broke and I had to explain it to Catherine.
Speaker 1: And she asked, you know about you know, different stars,
Speaker 1: did they know? And I'm like, well, yeah, yeah, they
Speaker 1: did know. And and and she said, well, Daddy, what
Speaker 1: why would they do that? Why would they be willing
Speaker 1: to cheat? And I said, well, you know, sweethearts, sometimes
Speaker 1: the pressure to win can be really, really tough. And
Speaker 1: she looks at me and says, well, don't they know
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you win or lose. It matters
Speaker 1: how you play the game. And I was just I
Speaker 1: just tugged her and I was like, you know, I
Speaker 1: told her softball coach. I said, See, she's listening. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's fantastic. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk
Speaker 1: lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows at
Speaker 1: Fox Sports Radio dot com and within the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app search f s are to listen live. We're
Speaker 1: talking to Senator Ted Cruz. Wins and Losses. I'm Clay Travis. Uh.
Speaker 1: A couple of questions for you here as we as
Speaker 1: we wind down, and obviously we canna get you on
Speaker 1: more often to talk Houston sports, by the way, because
Speaker 1: I think people are really going to enjoy this. A
Speaker 1: couple of things. Um, you talked about Jordan's and I
Speaker 1: think we agree being the best basketball player of all time.
Speaker 1: He and Brady probably the greatest team sport athletes of
Speaker 1: all time. You've worked in politics for a while, who
Speaker 1: in your mind is the Jordan's and or the Brady
Speaker 1: of the political universe, And maybe also the judicial universe.
Speaker 1: People that you've seen and you're like, man, their talent
Speaker 1: is just on a different level in terms of the
Speaker 1: political and judicial universe. In the political world, I'd have
Speaker 1: to say Ronald Reagan. Um. You know, for me, I've
Speaker 1: got in in my office here the Senate, I have
Speaker 1: the busts of three people. I have a bust of Reagan.
Speaker 1: I have a bust of Winston Churchill, and I have
Speaker 1: a bust of of Dr Barton Luther King Jr. And
Speaker 1: And I think all three of them as leaders, they
Speaker 1: were visionaries that that they could see beyond enormous challenges,
Speaker 1: enormous hurdles, and they lead lead their nations through massive challenges.
Speaker 1: They inspired millions and changed the world. And two of
Speaker 1: the three suffered an assassin's bullet. And and so I
Speaker 1: would say Reagan in terms of the ability to inspire
Speaker 1: and and and to speak to our better angels and
Speaker 1: touch our hearts and minds. You know, I was ten
Speaker 1: years old when Reagan became president. I was eighteen when
Speaker 1: he left the White House. And I think for a
Speaker 1: whole generation of Americans, ron Reagan defined what it meant
Speaker 1: to be president, that hopeful, optimistic belief in America belief
Speaker 1: and freedom, that that that happy warrior, you know, you
Speaker 1: know there was a prior generation of politicians that were
Speaker 1: mean and angry and nasty and and and Reagan rose
Speaker 1: above that. I think that's something UH A lot more
Speaker 1: of us need to do a lot more often. What
Speaker 1: about judiciary wise? Judicial wise, is there someone who written
Speaker 1: opinions or I know, again the law background with you,
Speaker 1: who would you say, is that level the Jordan's the
Speaker 1: Brady in your mind of the judicial verse? You know
Speaker 1: two people that I would focus on in in recent history,
Speaker 1: and number one Anson and Scalia, who was who was
Speaker 1: brilliant and who I knew well it was an extraordinary writer. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then number two, Chief Justice William renk Quist, who
Speaker 1: was my boss. I worked for Chief Justice renk Quist,
Speaker 1: was a law clerk for him and and knew him well.
Speaker 1: And this is actually a good way to wrap things
Speaker 1: up because there's a connection between Chief Justice renk Quist
Speaker 1: and the Houston Rockets and and it's going to surprise you.
Speaker 1: So I'm a third year law student. I get called
Speaker 1: for an interview from UH to interview with the Chief Justice,
Speaker 1: and his secretary calls and says, you know, can you
Speaker 1: be here tomorrow for the interviews. That sure, I'll be
Speaker 1: there whenever you want. So I was in Houston, I
Speaker 1: flew up to d C. I had the interviews at
Speaker 1: two o'clock in the afternoon. Lasted seventeen minutes. Was a
Speaker 1: short interview. Uh. The interview went fairly well. And as
Speaker 1: we're walking out, UM, I had tried something of a joke.
Speaker 1: I said, I said, you know, Mr Chief Justice, I'm
Speaker 1: actually bitter sweet to be here right now. And and
Speaker 1: he looks at me kind of puzzled. He said, well,
Speaker 1: what do you mean by that? And I said, well,
Speaker 1: tonight is Game four of the NBA Finals and and
Speaker 1: my Houston Rockets are getting way to sweep Orlando and
Speaker 1: win the second of back to back championships. And I
Speaker 1: was going to the game tonight, and I gave up
Speaker 1: the tickets to go to the game to come here
Speaker 1: and interview with you. And the Chief cracked up laughing,
Speaker 1: and he said, well, I think you made is the
Speaker 1: right decision. Uh, and it's probably the reason I got
Speaker 1: the jobs. I made him laugh, and he figured, all right,
Speaker 1: if you made me laugh, it'll it'll be all right
Speaker 1: to work with him for a year. That's outstanding. Uh,
Speaker 1: Senator Ted Cruz, I appreciate the time. I know how
Speaker 1: busy you are. We'll get you on again to talk
Speaker 1: some more sports in the future. But in the meantime,
Speaker 1: for people out there who might not be following you,
Speaker 1: what's the best way for them to track you down
Speaker 1: and keep up with what you're doing? So on Twitter
Speaker 1: at Ted Cruz. I've got a podcast Verdict with Ted Cruz, Uh,
Speaker 1: that which is doing really well, right, I've I've heard
Speaker 1: that it's being very well received so far. Yeah. We
Speaker 1: launched it a year ago during impeachment. It became the
Speaker 1: number one podcast in the world at that time. I
Speaker 1: mean it's we've had over twenty five million downloads. Um.
Speaker 1: And then I just have a new book actually on
Speaker 1: the question you asked about the Supreme Court. The book
Speaker 1: I just wrote is called One Vote Away, How a
Speaker 1: Single Supreme Court Seat Can Change History And and that
Speaker 1: became the number one best seller on Amazon and and
Speaker 1: so it gives the inside story of the Court and
Speaker 1: the justices and it and it answers in a lot
Speaker 1: greater depth. Uh. The question you asked about great justices
Speaker 1: and decisions and how our liberties are are hanging by
Speaker 1: a single vote. Let me ask you one more, because
Speaker 1: you mentioned impeachment and you did that podcast that was
Speaker 1: so well received. The impeachment trial of Donald Trump. The
Speaker 1: second impeachment trial of Donald Trump is going to happen.
Speaker 1: It appears to be dead on arrival, based on the
Speaker 1: forty five Republicans who have already said, basically, we don't
Speaker 1: believe it has jurisdiction. You worked in the Supreme Court
Speaker 1: as a clerk, you're obviously a legal scholar as well.
Speaker 1: For people out there who may not be familiar with it,
Speaker 1: what's going to happen? What do you believe of this
Speaker 1: second impeachment trial? I think you're exactly right. It's it's
Speaker 1: not going to go anywhere. Uh, You're going to see
Speaker 1: the Democrats from the House present their case attacking President Trump.
Speaker 1: I don't think it makes sense to be doing impeachment.
Speaker 1: The President is already out of the White House, he's left.
Speaker 1: I think this is really an exercise in in partisan vindictiveness,
Speaker 1: and I think they're big challenges in the country. I
Speaker 1: think we ought to be working to try to get
Speaker 1: people back to work and restart the economy coming out
Speaker 1: of this pandemic. Rather than a petty political trial. But
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the result is clear.
Speaker 1: In order for the president to be convicted in an
Speaker 1: impeachment trial, it takes two thirds of the Senate. That's
Speaker 1: sixty senators. That's not gonna happen. All the Democrats are
Speaker 1: going to vote to convict him, and the facts don't matter,
Speaker 1: by the way, they just hate him. All of the
Speaker 1: Democrats are going to vote to convictim. And I think
Speaker 1: there'll be a handful of Republicans who do as well.
Speaker 1: You mentioned the vote that was that's probably a pretty
Speaker 1: good proxy for where we end up, but it's gonna
Speaker 1: be well short of and so it will be a
Speaker 1: partisan demonstration by the Democrats and then it will go
Speaker 1: nowhere at the end of the day. Would you ever
Speaker 1: want to be on the Supreme Court as opposed? I
Speaker 1: know you've run for presidents several times, but at some
Speaker 1: point would that ever have an appeal to you? I've
Speaker 1: actually runs the president once, so alright, several different primaries,
Speaker 1: several different primaries. You were you were a candidate force
Speaker 1: so ib but would you would it have any appeal
Speaker 1: to you to ever be on the Supreme Court? You
Speaker 1: know it curiously, it does not UM. And this is
Speaker 1: one of the things I actually talk about it at
Speaker 1: some length and in in my book One Vote Away
Speaker 1: is that for all three of the Supreme Court vacancies
Speaker 1: that happened UH in the last four years, President Trump
Speaker 1: had very serious conversations with me about whether I wanted
Speaker 1: to go to the Court, and he put me on
Speaker 1: the list of potential justices he would appoint. And what
Speaker 1: I told him each time is I didn't want the job.
Speaker 1: That that that it was fine if he wanted to
Speaker 1: put me on the list, but I wouldn't wouldn't accept
Speaker 1: the job, and I didn't want it. UM. I think
Speaker 1: a judge's responsibility is to stay out of political fights
Speaker 1: and policy fights. If I were ever a judge, I
Speaker 1: do that. I don't want to stay out of political
Speaker 1: policy fights. I want to be right in the middle
Speaker 1: of them. And the right place to do that is
Speaker 1: the politically elected branches. It's the US Senate. It is
Speaker 1: that under our constitution is where we should resolve these issues.
Speaker 1: Ted Cruz, I appreciate it, look forward to talking to
Speaker 1: you again sometime soon, and encourage people to to check
Speaker 1: out your podcast as well as that most recent book
Speaker 1: awesome appreciate in it. That is Ted Cruz. I am
Speaker 1: Clay Travis. This has been the Wins and Lost his podcast.
Speaker 1: Go download all of them check them out. I hope
Speaker 1: you enjoyed our conversation. We'll be back soon. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening again. Wins and Lost his podcast