WEBVTT - Rat vs. Raccoon

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<v Speaker 1>Pushkin, How did you get into writing about raccoons.

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<v Speaker 2>I got into writing about raccoons because they started breaking

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<v Speaker 2>into my supposedly raccoon proof green ban named Toronto.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm talking with intrepid investigative reporter for the Toronto Star,

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<v Speaker 1>Amy Dempsey Raven. Typically she covers police wrongdoing, child welfare,

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<v Speaker 1>controversial homicides, but in twenty sixteen, when Toronto declared a

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<v Speaker 1>war on raccoons and unveiled a new raccoon resistant composting ben,

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<v Speaker 1>she realized it's time to get serious.

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<v Speaker 2>Mayor came out on this garbage truck and made all

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<v Speaker 2>of these promises, and I wondered. I thought to myself,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to keep an eye on things here.

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<v Speaker 1>This raccoon resistant ben cost the city thirty one million

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<v Speaker 1>Canadian dollars. But Toronto is own is the raccoon capital

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<v Speaker 1>of the world. Theoretically it's a point of pride, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's a little more complicated than that. If a race

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<v Speaker 1>of Martians took over your city, would you call it

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<v Speaker 1>the Martian capital of the world, only if you'd already

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<v Speaker 1>admitted defeat.

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<v Speaker 3>My first job after graduating was in Toronto, and I

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<v Speaker 3>had a.

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<v Speaker 1>Group house local man, Malcolm Gladwell.

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<v Speaker 3>I did not grow up in raccoon country, so I

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<v Speaker 3>had no idea something was making a racket so loud

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<v Speaker 3>and all night. Like when I say all night, I

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<v Speaker 3>mean without without stopping. From from the moment I went

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<v Speaker 3>to bed to the morning. I woke up, I couldn't sleep,

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<v Speaker 3>and I went my friends. A couple of my friends

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<v Speaker 3>were from Toronto, and I was like, what is going on? Like, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>it's raccoons. Like for them it was like, oh ye,

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<v Speaker 3>it's just like that's the deal here.

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<v Speaker 1>That was about forty years ago. Things have gotten much

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<v Speaker 1>much worse.

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<v Speaker 4>It doesn't get any more Toronto than this.

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<v Speaker 5>A raccoon inside a supermarket.

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<v Speaker 1>Here, raccoons in the garbage, Raccoons on the train, Oh god,

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<v Speaker 1>raccoons on the back deck.

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<v Speaker 4>Time to go down, buddy, time to go down.

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<v Speaker 5>You can't stay on this deck anymore that your viction day.

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<v Speaker 1>Raccoons have taken over the attics in a whole street

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<v Speaker 1>of houses and refused to leave. They brought traffic to

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<v Speaker 1>a screeching halt on Toronto's highways and just stood there.

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<v Speaker 1>They figured out how to open doors to houses and

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<v Speaker 1>refrigerators and stood on top of countertops, leftovers in their paws,

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<v Speaker 1>staring at freaked out homeowners as if to say, if

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted you here, I would have rung the bell.

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<v Speaker 1>Hence the priceya raccoon resistant bins, which surely no raccoon

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<v Speaker 1>would be able to open.

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<v Speaker 2>Soon after the rollout, we began hearing reports that raccoons

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<v Speaker 2>were outsmarting the bins, and the city said, now, that's

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<v Speaker 2>not really happening. But then one night they broke into mine.

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<v Speaker 1>Amy found herself wondering, how are raccoons smart enough to

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<v Speaker 1>open that bin? This was the question a historian of

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<v Speaker 1>science had found himself wondering one night when he looked

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<v Speaker 1>at his back deck in Toronto and saw composts all

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<v Speaker 1>over the place. He had an earlier version of the

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<v Speaker 1>compost bin, but here too, the raccoons had picked the lock.

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<v Speaker 1>Were they really just that smart? It turned out nobody

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<v Speaker 1>really knew. Raccoons had hardly been studied, basically, not at

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<v Speaker 1>all compared to other animals, like say, rats or monkeys.

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<v Speaker 1>This historian wanted to know why the midnight raid on

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<v Speaker 1>his compost bin would set in motion a sequence of

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<v Speaker 1>events that, in my own estimation, have come to Topple

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<v Speaker 1>an entire century of psychological theory and restored the raccoon

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<v Speaker 1>to its proper place, the dead center of how we

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<v Speaker 1>understand human beings.

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<v Speaker 3>Him Malcolm Gladwell, you're listening to Revisionist History, my show

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<v Speaker 3>about things overlooked, misunderstood and in praise of Toronto. You

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<v Speaker 3>may be familiar with the phrase lab rat. Perhaps you

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<v Speaker 3>are aware that many of the things we know about

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<v Speaker 3>human beings and the way we behave are based upon

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<v Speaker 3>the things we know about rats and the way they behave.

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<v Speaker 3>But in this episode, my colleague Ben the daph Haffrey

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<v Speaker 3>asks what if we picked the wrong animal.

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<v Speaker 1>Many historians of science will write about the greats Einstein, Freud, Oppenheimer,

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of research project not usually begun while scooping

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<v Speaker 1>up trash in your bathrobe on your back deck in Toronto.

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<v Speaker 1>But Michael Pettitt's always gotten into things sideways.

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<v Speaker 5>I have almost never written about kind of the dominant

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<v Speaker 5>people in the field. I personally find myself attracted to

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<v Speaker 5>the misfits.

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<v Speaker 1>Pettitt is a historian of psychology at York University in Toronto.

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<v Speaker 5>I work one morning, and of course the compost is

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<v Speaker 5>all over the deck, on scooping it up, because the

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<v Speaker 5>raccoons could very easily get into the lock, and as

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<v Speaker 5>in a start of psychology, I asked myself, Huh, I

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<v Speaker 5>wonder if anyone ever used a puzzle box with raccoons.

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<v Speaker 5>They seem really good at it.

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<v Speaker 1>Petitt knew all about scientists putting rats in mazes and

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<v Speaker 1>puzzly cages, the mainstream stuff. Who cares, But in all

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<v Speaker 1>his studies he had never heard of a raccoon in

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<v Speaker 1>a puzzle box. And yet here on his deck was

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<v Speaker 1>evidence that they were basically able to outsmart any human system.

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<v Speaker 5>These raccoons seemed very adept at doing locks, and so

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<v Speaker 5>I was just curious.

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<v Speaker 1>Michael was curious for good reason, not just because of

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<v Speaker 1>the locks situation. We've basically never known quite what to

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<v Speaker 1>make of raccoons.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, they aren't finates, but they're also not rodents,

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<v Speaker 5>So there's like there's something about them that they sort

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<v Speaker 5>of take on this role as kind of intermediary species.

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<v Speaker 5>There's this reputation of the raccoon for being this cunning,

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<v Speaker 5>intelligent trickster.

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<v Speaker 1>For a while, well, there wasn't even consensus on how

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<v Speaker 1>exactly they evolved. The famous naturalist Carl Lenaeus called them

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<v Speaker 1>Ursus louder or washer bear, because they like to rinse

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<v Speaker 1>their food and water, and he thought they descended from bears. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>for any true raccoon fans out there, I should note that, yes,

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<v Speaker 1>they aren't actually washing their food. They basically see you

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<v Speaker 1>with their paws, and their paws are more sensitive in

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<v Speaker 1>the water. This, by the way, is the instinct behind

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<v Speaker 1>that amazing Japanese TV show where they gave a raccoon

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<v Speaker 1>cotton candy, which the raccoon dutifully washed until they vanished.

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<v Speaker 1>But no, they're not washing and they're not bears. When

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<v Speaker 1>Christopher Columbus first set foot in the New World, he

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<v Speaker 1>remarked upon its quote clown like dogs, to which the

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<v Speaker 1>people of Italy said, Chris, what the hell are you

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<v Speaker 1>talking about? Until centuries later another naturalist realized, Oh, he's

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<v Speaker 1>talking about raccoons. They're their own thing.

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<v Speaker 5>They in some ways seem to be above the rodents,

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<v Speaker 5>and maybe even are carnivores.

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<v Speaker 1>Pettitt went looking for a history of raccoons science, specifically

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<v Speaker 1>about people investigating their intelligence, and found basically nothing. A

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<v Speaker 1>handful of scientists in one slim volume, in particular from

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen oh seven titled Concerning the Intelligence of Raccoons. It

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<v Speaker 1>was written by a man named Lawrence Cole, Frontier raccoonist.

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<v Speaker 5>So Lawrence Cole, in a lot of ways is a nobody.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, He's not someone if you go to a

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<v Speaker 5>history of psychology textbook and pull it off the shelf,

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<v Speaker 5>he's not someone that's particularly remarkable.

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<v Speaker 1>Lawrence Cole had done his graduate work at Harvard and

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<v Speaker 1>was part of a psychological movement that studied animals to

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<v Speaker 1>understand humans. In the nineteenth century, psychology had largely been

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<v Speaker 1>based on what people said about how they felt, which

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<v Speaker 1>was not super reliable. So why not instead observe how

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<v Speaker 1>animals behave and just extrapolate up the chain from there.

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<v Speaker 5>One absolutely says, it's not just our kind of our

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<v Speaker 5>physical formous human beings that is continuous with natural selection,

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<v Speaker 5>but also our psychological selves.

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<v Speaker 1>But which animal was best for the psychologists to study?

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<v Speaker 1>Any of them theoretically could work. Scientists were comparing species

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<v Speaker 1>across tests to see how they'd fare. People had studied chickens, dogs.

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<v Speaker 1>Coal's Advisor like the idea of studying monkeys, but monkeys

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<v Speaker 1>are super expensive. It would be helpful, though if there

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<v Speaker 1>were a kind of consensus, a linguis franca animal that

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<v Speaker 1>people could generalize from.

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<v Speaker 5>Through a series of circumstances, he acquires a small quality

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<v Speaker 5>of raccoons.

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<v Speaker 1>Cole still had to find an experiment of his own

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<v Speaker 1>to get his PhD. These raccoons seemed promising.

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<v Speaker 5>As far as Pool knew, no one had kind of

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<v Speaker 5>put raccoons through these motions. So that's adoptrible dissertation. I

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<v Speaker 5>can run these studies with these raccoons, right, whatever the

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<v Speaker 5>data is, I can say I have added to our

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<v Speaker 5>knowledge of compared to psychology.

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<v Speaker 1>He probably had a hunch that this was going to

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<v Speaker 1>be interesting.

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<v Speaker 5>I don't know if raccoons were the most charismatic of

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<v Speaker 5>our fauna, but raccoons they're kind of fun.

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<v Speaker 1>I think they're the most charismatic of our fauna.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, they're annoying, but they're like they're lovable scamps. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>Cole began running tests on the raccoons. He put them

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<v Speaker 1>in boxes with complicated locks every day for a whole

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<v Speaker 1>academic year, and he found they were incredible any box.

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<v Speaker 1>It seemed any puzzle the raccoon could solve it. And

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<v Speaker 1>what's more, the animal wasn't just going through the motions.

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<v Speaker 1>The raccoons seemed curious about what he was doing, and

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<v Speaker 1>Cole thought there was evidence that raccoons could hold images

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<v Speaker 1>in their mind. Nobody was making these kinds of claims

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<v Speaker 1>about other animals, so Cole started publishing his research, writing

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<v Speaker 1>the Leading Figures in Psychology, saying, Hey, these raccoons are

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<v Speaker 1>really unusually intelligent, maybe intelligent as monkeys, which seems to

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<v Speaker 1>me like it should make them a great model organism

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<v Speaker 1>for people. Except there was a movement that was growing

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<v Speaker 1>swiftly within Cole's field, right around them, which was explicitly

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<v Speaker 1>uncomfortable with any talk of an animal having a mind,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was fast becoming the only show in town.

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<v Speaker 1>It was called behaviorism. All this history is documented in

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<v Speaker 1>an amazing article by Michael Pettitt titled The Problem of

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<v Speaker 1>Raccoon Intelligence in Behaviorist America, which is one of my

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<v Speaker 1>favorite academic essays of all time, because the raccoon was

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<v Speaker 1>indeed a problem.

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<v Speaker 6>So it was no surprise to us that a lot

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<v Speaker 6>of psychologists steered clear of coon's.

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<v Speaker 1>Bob Bailey, he used to be the top guy at

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<v Speaker 1>a legendary behaviorist organization called Animal Behavior Enterprises. The founders

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<v Speaker 1>of that company wrote an infamous paper questioning the fundamentals

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<v Speaker 1>of behaviorism, the idea that all animals were blank slates

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<v Speaker 1>you could write whatever you wanted on. A key example,

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<v Speaker 1>one raccoon they trained to put coins in the box.

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<v Speaker 6>After a hundred or so responses, the raccoon would start.

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<v Speaker 6>Instead of just picking up one coin and taking it

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<v Speaker 6>to the box and putting it in the box, the

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<v Speaker 6>raccoon would pick up two coins and then rub them together,

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<v Speaker 6>and would start walking towards the box, and then it

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<v Speaker 6>would stop and rub the coins together, and then it

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<v Speaker 6>would go to the box and then start to put

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<v Speaker 6>the coins in, and then stop and rub the coins together,

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<v Speaker 6>and then start to put the coins back in the box,

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<v Speaker 6>and stop and rub the coins together. Eventually it would

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<v Speaker 6>put the coins in the box. Most of the.

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<v Speaker 1>Time, potentially, and most of the time were bad news

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<v Speaker 1>for people trying to turn psychology into a reputable hard science.

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<v Speaker 1>That raccoon box situation came later on, but this exact

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<v Speaker 1>dynamic put a bit of a target on Lawrence Cole,

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<v Speaker 1>the frontier raccoonist. And if you know anything about the

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<v Speaker 1>history of psychology, you'll know how the problem of the

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<v Speaker 1>raccoon was solved raccoon erasure. The raccoon does not figure

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<v Speaker 1>prominently at all, but you know which animal does, the rat.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious about how you account for that historical process

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<v Speaker 1>of raccoon erasure that begins around them.

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<v Speaker 5>One of the problems with raccoons is they are a

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<v Speaker 5>much larger and more cumbersome species than your bread labyrocks right.

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<v Speaker 5>In terms of feeding, caging, maintenance, rats proved much more

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<v Speaker 5>docile than a debt. Again, if you want to have

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<v Speaker 5>decent numbers study right. They also reproduce quite readily. They

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<v Speaker 5>have very short greeding cycles, and you can kind of

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<v Speaker 5>build up the populations.

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<v Speaker 1>But it wasn't just about convenience. It was also difficult

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<v Speaker 1>to generalize from raccoon experiments. Rats, for example, behaved in predictable,

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<v Speaker 1>repeatable ways, raccoons not so much. How is a scientist

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<v Speaker 1>supposed to work with an animal who each spring gets

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<v Speaker 1>wanderlust and attempts to break out of their cage. What

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<v Speaker 1>do you do when your experimental raccoon colony does escape

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<v Speaker 1>and moves into your labs of ventilation system. As behaviorism

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<v Speaker 1>gains steam, scientists in the big cities attacked the nascent

0:13:48.836 --> 0:13:52.916
<v Speaker 1>science of raccoons. Wasn't this all a bit silly? Meanwhile,

0:13:52.956 --> 0:13:56.236
<v Speaker 1>other behaviorists complained that keeping raccoon colonies was really just

0:13:56.276 --> 0:13:58.796
<v Speaker 1>a huge pain in the neck, and so we got

0:13:58.836 --> 0:14:02.676
<v Speaker 1>the century of the rat into a lesser degree the pigeon.

0:14:03.276 --> 0:14:06.636
<v Speaker 5>This behaviorism is a theory of control. They are animals

0:14:06.676 --> 0:14:07.716
<v Speaker 5>that you could control.

0:14:08.556 --> 0:14:11.276
<v Speaker 1>Behavior thought they were studying an animal that stood in

0:14:11.356 --> 0:14:15.636
<v Speaker 1>for all human beings, but actually they wound up studying

0:14:15.836 --> 0:14:18.876
<v Speaker 1>a lot of lab rats, and that led us to

0:14:18.956 --> 0:14:23.756
<v Speaker 1>some pretty flawed conclusions about people. We'll be right back

0:14:31.076 --> 0:14:33.556
<v Speaker 1>for a little while now. I've been interested in how

0:14:33.636 --> 0:14:36.436
<v Speaker 1>the lab rat has shaped our understanding of human beings.

0:14:37.156 --> 0:14:40.316
<v Speaker 1>Rats are all over the history of psychology, Rat studies

0:14:40.316 --> 0:14:44.196
<v Speaker 1>of depression, rat studies of cooperation, rat studies of rationality.

0:14:44.676 --> 0:14:47.396
<v Speaker 1>Think about the way we speak ratin a maze, the

0:14:47.476 --> 0:14:50.836
<v Speaker 1>rat race, malrat, jim rat, smell a rat, or rat's nest.

0:14:51.276 --> 0:14:53.716
<v Speaker 1>It's all rats all the way down. I figured if

0:14:53.756 --> 0:14:56.236
<v Speaker 1>anyone could tell me about how exactly this all came

0:14:56.276 --> 0:14:58.836
<v Speaker 1>to be, it would be one of the leading rat

0:14:58.876 --> 0:15:03.156
<v Speaker 1>behavioral researchers in the country. Doctor Kelly Lambert at the

0:15:03.236 --> 0:15:05.276
<v Speaker 1>University of Richmond.

0:15:05.316 --> 0:15:07.516
<v Speaker 7>For most of psychology. It's just they were the only

0:15:07.556 --> 0:15:09.796
<v Speaker 7>show in town. If you want to to do research

0:15:09.836 --> 0:15:11.956
<v Speaker 7>with an animal model. When I was in graduate school

0:15:11.956 --> 0:15:14.516
<v Speaker 7>at the University of Georgia, this is what we had.

0:15:14.956 --> 0:15:17.516
<v Speaker 7>That was the only animal model you had.

0:15:18.596 --> 0:15:22.636
<v Speaker 1>Lambert loves rats. She's written a book called The Labrat Chronicles.

0:15:22.836 --> 0:15:27.516
<v Speaker 1>A neuroscientist reveals life lessons from the planet's most successful mammals.

0:15:28.116 --> 0:15:31.156
<v Speaker 1>She's particularly famous for experiments where she taught rats to

0:15:31.236 --> 0:15:34.396
<v Speaker 1>drive cars, which, if we're being honest, is really why

0:15:34.396 --> 0:15:35.236
<v Speaker 1>I've gone to Richmond.

0:15:35.996 --> 0:15:39.116
<v Speaker 7>So the idea was to train them. Get in the car,

0:15:39.156 --> 0:15:41.076
<v Speaker 7>you get a fruitleate, sit here and get a fruitly

0:15:41.356 --> 0:15:43.716
<v Speaker 7>But early on it was amazing that they seemed to

0:15:43.796 --> 0:15:46.516
<v Speaker 7>learn the concept of driving. So once we shaped them

0:15:46.556 --> 0:15:48.676
<v Speaker 7>and they learned to press the right lever to go right,

0:15:48.756 --> 0:15:51.116
<v Speaker 7>they seem to automatically know to press the left one

0:15:51.156 --> 0:15:51.716
<v Speaker 7>to go left.

0:15:52.516 --> 0:15:55.476
<v Speaker 1>If you've seen Stuart Little in his red convertible, you're

0:15:55.556 --> 0:15:57.836
<v Speaker 1>not even half prepared for the image of a lab

0:15:57.916 --> 0:16:00.516
<v Speaker 1>rat hunched over the dashboard on what appears to be

0:16:00.556 --> 0:16:04.316
<v Speaker 1>a monster truck, just careening towards a bunch of fruit loops.

0:16:08.196 --> 0:16:11.916
<v Speaker 1>Lambert loves were with her rats, but lately she's also

0:16:11.956 --> 0:16:15.036
<v Speaker 1>been questioning how the rat became the be all end

0:16:15.036 --> 0:16:17.436
<v Speaker 1>all for understanding human beings.

0:16:18.356 --> 0:16:20.956
<v Speaker 7>I don't think they made a decision about which model

0:16:21.036 --> 0:16:23.716
<v Speaker 7>organism should we use. The rat was already on board

0:16:23.956 --> 0:16:27.596
<v Speaker 7>for biomedical research, so it's practical to use the rat.

0:16:28.116 --> 0:16:31.196
<v Speaker 1>Basically, it's the lab rat industry. There was a whole

0:16:31.276 --> 0:16:35.196
<v Speaker 1>factory line system around producing lab rats via mass inbreeding,

0:16:35.596 --> 0:16:38.996
<v Speaker 1>premised on the fantasy that the inbred rats were basically

0:16:39.036 --> 0:16:40.356
<v Speaker 1>interchangeable with one another.

0:16:40.956 --> 0:16:45.076
<v Speaker 7>They bred brothers and sisters for twenty generations. Their intention

0:16:45.436 --> 0:16:48.516
<v Speaker 7>was the animals be as close to clones as possible,

0:16:49.036 --> 0:16:55.636
<v Speaker 7>and then whatever your manipulation was, diet, stress, movement, or whatever,

0:16:55.916 --> 0:16:59.356
<v Speaker 7>they felt confident that they saw a difference between the

0:16:59.396 --> 0:17:02.076
<v Speaker 7>experimental group that got it and the control group that didn't,

0:17:02.556 --> 0:17:06.716
<v Speaker 7>that that variable was the influential variable.

0:17:07.116 --> 0:17:09.676
<v Speaker 1>This was all taking off around the time and Cole's

0:17:09.716 --> 0:17:12.996
<v Speaker 1>work with raccoons was being cast aside. That kind of

0:17:13.076 --> 0:17:17.036
<v Speaker 1>inbreeding helped create rats who were much more docile and

0:17:17.116 --> 0:17:20.796
<v Speaker 1>easier to control than wild rats and certainly than raccoons,

0:17:21.316 --> 0:17:25.676
<v Speaker 1>which meant it gave the behaviorists easier, more reliable data,

0:17:26.076 --> 0:17:29.916
<v Speaker 1>and then it just took off. Soon. A prominent psychologist

0:17:29.956 --> 0:17:33.116
<v Speaker 1>described the field as being infected by a plague of rats.

0:17:33.476 --> 0:17:36.596
<v Speaker 1>Millions of dollars poured into rat studies. The leader of

0:17:36.636 --> 0:17:40.196
<v Speaker 1>the Yale Institute of Human Relations announced that anything he

0:17:40.236 --> 0:17:44.796
<v Speaker 1>observed about rats behaviors among other animals was quote identical

0:17:45.036 --> 0:17:48.316
<v Speaker 1>with those operative in man, even in his highest behavioral

0:17:48.396 --> 0:17:51.916
<v Speaker 1>achievements end quote. Let me play you a bit of

0:17:51.996 --> 0:17:54.916
<v Speaker 1>film that Yale Institute produced. I think it goes a

0:17:54.956 --> 0:17:58.116
<v Speaker 1>long way to showing exactly how confident these people were

0:17:58.236 --> 0:18:00.556
<v Speaker 1>in what studying rats could tell us about people.

0:18:01.476 --> 0:18:04.436
<v Speaker 8>Again, a mild electric shock and they administered through the

0:18:04.436 --> 0:18:06.556
<v Speaker 8>grid on the floor of the apparatus.

0:18:06.956 --> 0:18:09.516
<v Speaker 1>This film has always freaked me out. A rat in

0:18:09.556 --> 0:18:12.036
<v Speaker 1>a cage with an electric current running through the bars.

0:18:12.556 --> 0:18:14.356
<v Speaker 1>He's got to figure out how to turn it off.

0:18:14.996 --> 0:18:17.636
<v Speaker 8>This time, it can only be turned off by ropetaking

0:18:17.636 --> 0:18:20.996
<v Speaker 8>a wheel. The satiated animals starts responding as soon as

0:18:20.996 --> 0:18:22.076
<v Speaker 8>a drive is supplied.

0:18:23.076 --> 0:18:25.916
<v Speaker 1>The whole time that tone is sounding, the rat is

0:18:25.956 --> 0:18:28.876
<v Speaker 1>just frantically scrambling around his cage trying to figure out

0:18:28.916 --> 0:18:31.316
<v Speaker 1>how to make it stop. Then he starts pawing at

0:18:31.316 --> 0:18:32.956
<v Speaker 1>a wheel and it turns off.

0:18:33.636 --> 0:18:37.076
<v Speaker 8>The drive produced by electric shock is stronger than hunger.

0:18:37.916 --> 0:18:40.196
<v Speaker 1>It turns out zapping a rat is a good way

0:18:40.196 --> 0:18:42.836
<v Speaker 1>to get it to do anything, including violence.

0:18:43.316 --> 0:18:47.076
<v Speaker 8>Responding to another animal by striking him can also be learned.

0:18:47.156 --> 0:18:49.316
<v Speaker 8>All he needs is a little motivation.

0:18:51.996 --> 0:18:54.556
<v Speaker 1>If you could teach a rat to do anything, why

0:18:54.596 --> 0:18:57.836
<v Speaker 1>not a person. Suddenly the scary world of the twentieth

0:18:57.836 --> 0:19:01.276
<v Speaker 1>century began to seem a lot more manageable. Mass movements,

0:19:01.396 --> 0:19:05.156
<v Speaker 1>great depressions, whatever. Just find the right set of incentives

0:19:05.236 --> 0:19:08.076
<v Speaker 1>or punishments, and all of human behavior it could be

0:19:08.076 --> 0:19:09.516
<v Speaker 1>predicted and can controlled.

0:19:10.316 --> 0:19:14.436
<v Speaker 7>We started comparing that behavior to humans at a slot

0:19:14.436 --> 0:19:19.916
<v Speaker 7>machine or something. People I think started seeing humans as

0:19:19.996 --> 0:19:22.836
<v Speaker 7>big rats or rats as little humans. Always say that

0:19:22.876 --> 0:19:28.076
<v Speaker 7>we're not. We've got what six thousand mammalian species, and

0:19:28.116 --> 0:19:29.596
<v Speaker 7>we're going to pick one or two.

0:19:30.076 --> 0:19:32.676
<v Speaker 1>A few people question the dominance of the rat at first,

0:19:33.196 --> 0:19:37.796
<v Speaker 1>Why bother when it was working so well. This kind

0:19:37.836 --> 0:19:40.556
<v Speaker 1>of thing has always bothered me on a gut level.

0:19:40.716 --> 0:19:42.276
<v Speaker 1>I look in the mirror every day and I do

0:19:42.396 --> 0:19:44.916
<v Speaker 1>not see a rat staring back at me. At least

0:19:44.996 --> 0:19:48.436
<v Speaker 1>nonsense patching the hole in my bathroom wall. We aren't rats.

0:19:48.836 --> 0:19:52.356
<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying we can't learn anything about ourselves from animals,

0:19:52.756 --> 0:19:55.316
<v Speaker 1>but I am saying that you should never underestimate how

0:19:55.316 --> 0:19:57.556
<v Speaker 1>many of the things we think we know about human

0:19:57.596 --> 0:20:00.956
<v Speaker 1>beings are actually things we know about inbred rats with

0:20:01.036 --> 0:20:04.596
<v Speaker 1>brains the size of grapes kept in cages that sometimes

0:20:04.596 --> 0:20:05.316
<v Speaker 1>electrocute you.

0:20:06.236 --> 0:20:08.116
<v Speaker 7>And it's hard for me to think back about why

0:20:08.116 --> 0:20:10.836
<v Speaker 7>didn't I question that, or did I ask if there

0:20:10.836 --> 0:20:13.676
<v Speaker 7>are other models? And it's just become lightly that I've

0:20:13.716 --> 0:20:16.036
<v Speaker 7>had so many of these. Kelly, what the heck were

0:20:16.076 --> 0:20:17.556
<v Speaker 7>you thinking? All these years?

0:20:18.596 --> 0:20:21.076
<v Speaker 1>We built a science of human nature and one of

0:20:21.116 --> 0:20:25.076
<v Speaker 1>the strongest pillars was the labrat. And who is the labrat?

0:20:25.476 --> 0:20:28.996
<v Speaker 1>He's crucially not the raccoon. The raccoon lets it all

0:20:29.036 --> 0:20:33.796
<v Speaker 1>hang out. He's defiant, mischievous, crafty. If asked to participate

0:20:33.836 --> 0:20:37.436
<v Speaker 1>in a scientific experiment, he will inquire about payment than

0:20:37.516 --> 0:20:41.236
<v Speaker 1>callin sick. Not the rat. The rat is hard working

0:20:41.316 --> 0:20:45.596
<v Speaker 1>by instinct, diligent. He gnaws away, he navigates complex warrants.

0:20:45.636 --> 0:20:49.036
<v Speaker 1>He gets a perfect score on his SATs. He's rational.

0:20:49.756 --> 0:20:52.876
<v Speaker 1>Build the maze and he'll fall in line. He is

0:20:52.876 --> 0:20:55.556
<v Speaker 1>in short, a good animal for running the same test

0:20:55.716 --> 0:20:59.796
<v Speaker 1>again and again and again without complaint, while delivering consistent,

0:21:00.076 --> 0:21:05.356
<v Speaker 1>reliable data suggesting that we humans behave in consistent, reliable ways.

0:21:06.156 --> 0:21:08.996
<v Speaker 1>For all this, the rat has been rewarded by becoming

0:21:09.156 --> 0:21:13.116
<v Speaker 1>the only animals synonymous with the scientific laboratory. It's not

0:21:13.276 --> 0:21:18.116
<v Speaker 1>lab pigeon, it's not lab monkey, it's lab rat. But

0:21:18.236 --> 0:21:20.996
<v Speaker 1>I was beginning to wonder what if it should have

0:21:21.036 --> 0:21:31.436
<v Speaker 1>been lab raccoon. We'll be right back. Some years ago,

0:21:31.676 --> 0:21:34.676
<v Speaker 1>when Michael Pettitt was working on his ingenious article about

0:21:34.756 --> 0:21:37.636
<v Speaker 1>raccoon or rasure, he took a colleague out to lunch,

0:21:37.876 --> 0:21:42.596
<v Speaker 1>Suzanne MacDonald, behaviorist and expert in animal cognition. He told

0:21:42.596 --> 0:21:44.876
<v Speaker 1>her what he'd been learning about Lawrence Cole and the

0:21:44.916 --> 0:21:49.196
<v Speaker 1>early raccoon studies. She, a fellow Torontonian beset by the

0:21:49.196 --> 0:21:53.556
<v Speaker 1>plague of raccoons, was like, oh my god, how did

0:21:53.556 --> 0:21:54.036
<v Speaker 1>we miss this?

0:21:54.916 --> 0:21:57.236
<v Speaker 4>I originally had thought, and I told Mike this because

0:21:57.236 --> 0:22:00.316
<v Speaker 4>I thought it was a brilliant insight. Oh, they're they're

0:22:00.356 --> 0:22:01.756
<v Speaker 4>the monkeys of North America.

0:22:01.796 --> 0:22:03.916
<v Speaker 1>By monkeys of North America, you mean they fill a

0:22:04.076 --> 0:22:06.036
<v Speaker 1>certain ecological niche yeah.

0:22:05.876 --> 0:22:08.996
<v Speaker 4>Because we don't have monkeys, right, So it's just like, oh, well,

0:22:09.156 --> 0:22:11.516
<v Speaker 4>you know, maybe they're just like that. They're not primates,

0:22:11.556 --> 0:22:15.356
<v Speaker 4>but maybe they have evolved to cognitively to be like primates.

0:22:15.596 --> 0:22:19.516
<v Speaker 1>Traveling to study monkeys was expensive. If raccoons were like monkeys,

0:22:19.556 --> 0:22:22.476
<v Speaker 1>then living in Toronto was like living on safari. So

0:22:22.556 --> 0:22:26.436
<v Speaker 1>McDonald caught the Lawrence colebug. She began to study raccoons

0:22:26.876 --> 0:22:28.796
<v Speaker 1>and she's been doing it ever since.

0:22:29.076 --> 0:22:31.556
<v Speaker 4>Because we don't know very much, just trying to fill

0:22:31.596 --> 0:22:34.996
<v Speaker 4>gaps and trying to see what I find out about them,

0:22:35.236 --> 0:22:40.396
<v Speaker 4>and they are annoying little critters. So it's been challenging

0:22:40.476 --> 0:22:43.116
<v Speaker 4>and I wouldn't recommend it to most people.

0:22:44.356 --> 0:22:47.556
<v Speaker 1>McDonald has become one of the world's leading experts in raccoons,

0:22:47.796 --> 0:22:50.956
<v Speaker 1>and in particular the urban raccoons of Toronto, with whom

0:22:50.956 --> 0:22:54.396
<v Speaker 1>I think she feels a strong kinship. For instance, I've

0:22:54.436 --> 0:22:57.276
<v Speaker 1>seen people saying that there are one hundred thousand raccoons

0:22:57.276 --> 0:23:00.676
<v Speaker 1>in Toronto. Where did they get that number? McDonald told

0:23:00.676 --> 0:23:03.716
<v Speaker 1>me that she was the origin of that statistic, and

0:23:03.756 --> 0:23:05.796
<v Speaker 1>she just made a number up, which is exactly what

0:23:05.836 --> 0:23:08.796
<v Speaker 1>a raccoon would do. She gets it. So, after a

0:23:08.796 --> 0:23:12.276
<v Speaker 1>century of waiting I prepared to receive the good news

0:23:12.316 --> 0:23:15.876
<v Speaker 1>about the raccoon's true intelligence from the source. I leaned

0:23:15.916 --> 0:23:17.436
<v Speaker 1>back in my desk chair.

0:23:17.876 --> 0:23:20.996
<v Speaker 4>And I can tell you, having studied cognition and maybe raccoons,

0:23:21.116 --> 0:23:26.716
<v Speaker 4>they are dumber and sticks. They are so dumb, just terrible.

0:23:27.316 --> 0:23:30.116
<v Speaker 4>Every one of our little markers that we use for

0:23:30.196 --> 0:23:34.916
<v Speaker 4>animals cognition or intelligence or you know, developmental milestones are

0:23:34.916 --> 0:23:37.076
<v Speaker 4>going they just fail every single one.

0:23:37.636 --> 0:23:41.836
<v Speaker 1>How intriguing. I thought maybe the raccoons super intelligence develops

0:23:41.876 --> 0:23:42.836
<v Speaker 1>at a later age.

0:23:43.196 --> 0:23:44.516
<v Speaker 4>No, an adult not either.

0:23:45.076 --> 0:23:46.076
<v Speaker 1>This was not going well.

0:23:46.556 --> 0:23:49.916
<v Speaker 4>So honestly, that that is what I've disappointed me so much,

0:23:49.996 --> 0:23:52.796
<v Speaker 4>because I always thought, you know that raccoons are the

0:23:52.836 --> 0:23:55.636
<v Speaker 4>monkeys of North America, but they are not.

0:23:56.356 --> 0:23:59.196
<v Speaker 1>I was at this point trying not to look hugely depressed,

0:23:59.676 --> 0:24:01.476
<v Speaker 1>but McDonald just kept going.

0:24:02.276 --> 0:24:06.876
<v Speaker 4>So what they have done is a evolved to sort

0:24:06.876 --> 0:24:10.156
<v Speaker 4>of search and destroying. That seems to be their strategy

0:24:10.516 --> 0:24:13.516
<v Speaker 4>plus pecqual search and destroy and they find a thing

0:24:13.556 --> 0:24:16.596
<v Speaker 4>and they break it, right, But there are other situations

0:24:16.636 --> 0:24:18.636
<v Speaker 4>where you present them with a thing and you can

0:24:18.676 --> 0:24:20.756
<v Speaker 4>see them looking at it and figuring it out. Yeah,

0:24:20.836 --> 0:24:24.676
<v Speaker 4>raccoons don't do that. They're just like, what can I

0:24:24.756 --> 0:24:27.356
<v Speaker 4>do to knock this over? What can I do to

0:24:27.476 --> 0:24:30.436
<v Speaker 4>break this open? What can I do to get whatever

0:24:30.476 --> 0:24:33.516
<v Speaker 4>it is I need to get? And they just leave

0:24:33.676 --> 0:24:38.716
<v Speaker 4>destruction in their way. So they are not sitting and

0:24:38.916 --> 0:24:43.716
<v Speaker 4>thinking about things. They are all action, very little thought.

0:24:46.356 --> 0:24:48.396
<v Speaker 1>Here, I should just say that there's a lot we

0:24:48.436 --> 0:24:52.036
<v Speaker 1>still don't know about raccoons, and indeed McDonald still gets

0:24:52.076 --> 0:24:55.476
<v Speaker 1>a lot out of studying them too, especially the particularities

0:24:55.716 --> 0:24:59.796
<v Speaker 1>of urban raccoons. But still, I had wondered about this

0:24:59.876 --> 0:25:04.596
<v Speaker 1>question for years. Hearing that raccoons were morons actually was

0:25:04.676 --> 0:25:06.956
<v Speaker 1>kind of a bummer in my book. But you know

0:25:06.996 --> 0:25:08.836
<v Speaker 1>who was thrilled when I told them about it.

0:25:09.236 --> 0:25:12.756
<v Speaker 3>That's precisely why there's such a better model for human beings.

0:25:13.396 --> 0:25:16.196
<v Speaker 1>Again, local man Malcolm Gladwell.

0:25:16.596 --> 0:25:24.436
<v Speaker 3>They are clever, mischievous, vengeful, destructive, and profoundly stupid. That

0:25:25.036 --> 0:25:27.836
<v Speaker 3>is humanity. We observe the raccoon and we think there

0:25:27.916 --> 0:25:32.116
<v Speaker 3>is a kind of deep intelligence there that's fueling his behavior,

0:25:32.516 --> 0:25:37.236
<v Speaker 3>and there isn't. The raccoon just wants to mess things up, right,

0:25:37.756 --> 0:25:42.036
<v Speaker 3>He just and he's maniacal about it. He just wants

0:25:42.076 --> 0:25:46.116
<v Speaker 3>to destroy and he has a kind of surface cleverness

0:25:46.476 --> 0:25:50.436
<v Speaker 3>that serves those destructive impulses. So when I look at

0:25:50.476 --> 0:25:53.876
<v Speaker 3>the raccoon, I mean, do I need to say it?

0:25:53.876 --> 0:25:55.556
<v Speaker 3>It's Donald Trump? He's a raccoon.

0:25:55.716 --> 0:25:55.916
<v Speaker 4>Hey.

0:25:56.116 --> 0:25:58.196
<v Speaker 3>The problem with our the way we think about Trump

0:25:58.236 --> 0:26:02.076
<v Speaker 3>is at various points. You know, is Donald Trump a rat? No,

0:26:02.156 --> 0:26:02.876
<v Speaker 3>he's not a rat.

0:26:02.996 --> 0:26:03.836
<v Speaker 1>Nixon's a rat.

0:26:04.436 --> 0:26:06.756
<v Speaker 3>Nixon's a rat.

0:26:06.876 --> 0:26:07.876
<v Speaker 1>So is he a fox?

0:26:08.116 --> 0:26:12.236
<v Speaker 3>Sometimes people say crazy like a fox, crazy like a fox. No,

0:26:12.316 --> 0:26:16.276
<v Speaker 3>because the fox is actually a deeply intelligent animal, right well.

0:26:16.196 --> 0:26:19.196
<v Speaker 1>And crucially wary. The fox is wary. The raccoon is

0:26:19.236 --> 0:26:19.836
<v Speaker 1>not wary.

0:26:20.196 --> 0:26:24.356
<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly, the fox wood stops to think and pause

0:26:24.436 --> 0:26:28.596
<v Speaker 3>and make a strategy, and you know, takes his time.

0:26:28.956 --> 0:26:31.636
<v Speaker 3>A raccoon would have fallen into the Russian orbit without

0:26:31.636 --> 0:26:35.596
<v Speaker 3>realizing it. The raccoon, you know, like a raccoon would

0:26:35.676 --> 0:26:39.236
<v Speaker 3>choose his running mates with carelessness and abandoned. I mean,

0:26:39.236 --> 0:26:42.076
<v Speaker 3>it's just like, it's all, it's all raccoon. It feels

0:26:42.116 --> 0:26:45.236
<v Speaker 3>like to call Trump a rat is to miss is

0:26:45.276 --> 0:26:49.356
<v Speaker 3>to completely misunderstand who he is. It's just a raccoon.

0:26:49.356 --> 0:26:51.956
<v Speaker 3>He's going to scrape outside your window all night and

0:26:52.036 --> 0:26:54.356
<v Speaker 3>like create a racket and just know everyone else will

0:26:54.356 --> 0:26:56.436
<v Speaker 3>be sleep with some groggy and he will be happy

0:26:56.436 --> 0:26:56.876
<v Speaker 3>in the morning.

0:26:57.156 --> 0:26:59.796
<v Speaker 1>There's also, I think crucially, if we're going back to

0:26:59.836 --> 0:27:02.556
<v Speaker 1>this kind of did we pick the wrong model organism?

0:27:02.596 --> 0:27:04.516
<v Speaker 1>What do we conclude about human beings if we think

0:27:04.516 --> 0:27:08.636
<v Speaker 1>they are like rats. Rats are very hard working. You

0:27:08.716 --> 0:27:12.236
<v Speaker 1>give them a task and they will do it ad nauseum,

0:27:12.676 --> 0:27:15.596
<v Speaker 1>just just they're happy to just keep getting the job done.

0:27:16.036 --> 0:27:19.036
<v Speaker 1>They are They live in little warrens. You put a

0:27:19.076 --> 0:27:20.676
<v Speaker 1>rat in amaze and knows exactly what to do, and

0:27:20.716 --> 0:27:23.996
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of like fine being an amaze.

0:27:24.436 --> 0:27:25.276
<v Speaker 3>Problem solvers.

0:27:25.356 --> 0:27:30.276
<v Speaker 1>They're problem solvers. They're sort of cautious about new things.

0:27:30.316 --> 0:27:32.556
<v Speaker 1>You talk to any exterminator. It's like very hard to

0:27:32.556 --> 0:27:35.356
<v Speaker 1>get a rat to eat poison. Like they they are

0:27:35.716 --> 0:27:37.916
<v Speaker 1>very careful about what they eat, what risks they take.

0:27:38.516 --> 0:27:45.516
<v Speaker 1>Raccoons are extremely disinhibited. They aren't wary at all. A

0:27:45.636 --> 0:27:48.796
<v Speaker 1>raccoon can live to like twenty in a lab. In

0:27:48.876 --> 0:27:51.316
<v Speaker 1>the wild, they tend to live two to three years

0:27:51.636 --> 0:27:53.476
<v Speaker 1>because they're just sort of like, what's that do and

0:27:53.516 --> 0:27:57.236
<v Speaker 1>they just like like could jam their fingers in a socket.

0:27:57.756 --> 0:28:00.796
<v Speaker 1>It's like and that's the end of the raccoon. We

0:28:00.916 --> 0:28:05.756
<v Speaker 1>built the world for rats, but we are functionally raccoons,

0:28:05.956 --> 0:28:08.476
<v Speaker 1>and so we are dissatisfied with the rat world. But

0:28:08.556 --> 0:28:10.676
<v Speaker 1>it is the fact that we have the rat world

0:28:11.036 --> 0:28:13.236
<v Speaker 1>that has kept us from blowing it all up in

0:28:13.276 --> 0:28:14.076
<v Speaker 1>our face so far.

0:28:14.316 --> 0:28:15.636
<v Speaker 5>No, yes, you can't.

0:28:15.756 --> 0:28:19.076
<v Speaker 3>What you never plan for in a world built on

0:28:20.436 --> 0:28:24.196
<v Speaker 3>rats on the rat model, is it someone instead of

0:28:24.196 --> 0:28:27.476
<v Speaker 3>trying to navigate the maze, just wants to burn it down.

0:28:28.076 --> 0:28:30.356
<v Speaker 3>That's the one thing. The ret is never going to

0:28:30.476 --> 0:28:33.596
<v Speaker 3>do that, and the rat's never going to effectively commit

0:28:33.636 --> 0:28:37.396
<v Speaker 3>a kind of institutional suicide. The raccoon just wants to

0:28:37.436 --> 0:28:39.116
<v Speaker 3>destroy things.

0:28:39.916 --> 0:28:42.676
<v Speaker 1>I did a complete one eighty on this story. I

0:28:42.716 --> 0:28:45.436
<v Speaker 1>started thinking that the rat model was a disgrace because

0:28:45.516 --> 0:28:48.916
<v Speaker 1>I had rats all wrong. I see now, it was

0:28:48.996 --> 0:28:53.916
<v Speaker 1>kind of utopian. Every need could be anticipated, every behavior nudged,

0:28:54.356 --> 0:28:59.316
<v Speaker 1>every outcome predicted, and every person satisfied. But there is

0:28:59.436 --> 0:29:03.836
<v Speaker 1>no one animal model for human behavior. Rats its own thing,

0:29:04.156 --> 0:29:07.916
<v Speaker 1>elab rats its own thing. Raccoons are really their own thing,

0:29:08.436 --> 0:29:10.916
<v Speaker 1>And we're not one or the other. We're all of

0:29:10.956 --> 0:29:15.276
<v Speaker 1>the above and something else. But these days it seems

0:29:15.316 --> 0:29:19.436
<v Speaker 1>clear we definitely did ourselves a disservice when we forgot

0:29:19.556 --> 0:29:27.916
<v Speaker 1>about the raccoon. Sadly I never got to come face

0:29:27.956 --> 0:29:30.676
<v Speaker 1>to face with a raccoon and reporting this story, but

0:29:30.756 --> 0:29:32.796
<v Speaker 1>I did get to meet a labrat.

0:29:35.756 --> 0:29:36.316
<v Speaker 3>Rooms.

0:29:37.436 --> 0:29:39.636
<v Speaker 7>I love designing tests for rats.

0:29:39.996 --> 0:29:42.556
<v Speaker 1>Kelly Lambert now studies all kinds of animals in all

0:29:42.636 --> 0:29:46.596
<v Speaker 1>kinds of places. She's particularly interested in wild animals these days,

0:29:46.836 --> 0:29:49.956
<v Speaker 1>but Lambert still has a soft spot for the labrat.

0:29:50.156 --> 0:29:52.836
<v Speaker 1>When I visited her at the University of Richmond, she

0:29:52.916 --> 0:29:55.876
<v Speaker 1>took me back into a locked set of rooms. There

0:29:55.876 --> 0:29:59.396
<v Speaker 1>were signs up that said quiet behavioral testing in progress,

0:30:00.156 --> 0:30:02.836
<v Speaker 1>and behind one of the doors a cage with two

0:30:02.916 --> 0:30:04.756
<v Speaker 1>rats she's been teaching to drive.

0:30:06.756 --> 0:30:10.716
<v Speaker 7>They're generally, you know, like kittens. I have to suit up.

0:30:10.796 --> 0:30:14.916
<v Speaker 7>It would bite my nose off. So they've been bread

0:30:15.236 --> 0:30:20.636
<v Speaker 7>to be able to handle them easily. So if I'm

0:30:20.636 --> 0:30:23.236
<v Speaker 7>looking at aggression or stress, this may not be the

0:30:23.276 --> 0:30:24.556
<v Speaker 7>best model to use.

0:30:25.236 --> 0:30:27.916
<v Speaker 1>I leaned closer to the rat. Lambert seemed to think

0:30:27.956 --> 0:30:30.356
<v Speaker 1>he was showing an unusual interest in my microphone.

0:30:31.916 --> 0:30:33.876
<v Speaker 7>You're more interested in the novel than the.

0:30:33.876 --> 0:30:36.476
<v Speaker 1>Food, more curious about the microphone. I wonder what it

0:30:36.516 --> 0:30:39.796
<v Speaker 1>is about that. Actually the rat was really grabbing at

0:30:39.796 --> 0:30:42.396
<v Speaker 1>the mic, pulling it closer to its snout.

0:30:43.036 --> 0:30:45.956
<v Speaker 7>Podcast rat, this is your first rat podcaster.

0:30:48.596 --> 0:30:51.636
<v Speaker 1>It was really weird. He wasn't climbing on the mic.

0:30:51.676 --> 0:30:53.956
<v Speaker 1>He was just yanking it right up to his face.

0:30:54.596 --> 0:30:56.476
<v Speaker 1>Not something you would have predicted if you know about

0:30:56.596 --> 0:31:00.196
<v Speaker 1>rats and how wary they are. A mystery. I felt

0:31:00.196 --> 0:31:02.356
<v Speaker 1>like maybe that rat was trying to tell me something.

0:31:03.076 --> 0:31:07.556
<v Speaker 1>Rats communicate via ultrasonic frequencies. So a few days later,

0:31:07.636 --> 0:31:11.596
<v Speaker 1>when I got home, processed the audio, pitch shifted it

0:31:11.636 --> 0:31:13.316
<v Speaker 1>down and hit play.

0:31:14.116 --> 0:31:16.196
<v Speaker 4>Have you ever seen a raccoon drive a car? Long

0:31:16.316 --> 0:31:17.676
<v Speaker 4>Live the Librat?

0:31:18.756 --> 0:31:22.316
<v Speaker 1>Sorry, buddy, I know you're right, but it's the raccoon's

0:31:22.356 --> 0:31:33.276
<v Speaker 1>time now. Revision of History is produced by me Ben

0:31:33.316 --> 0:31:37.716
<v Speaker 1>Mattip Haffrey, Lucy Sullivan, and Nina Bird Lawrence. Our editor

0:31:37.796 --> 0:31:42.476
<v Speaker 1>is Karen Schakerji, fact checking by Anica Robbins, original scoring

0:31:42.556 --> 0:31:46.436
<v Speaker 1>by Luis Kara, mixing and mastering on this episode by

0:31:46.436 --> 0:31:50.956
<v Speaker 1>Echo Mountain. Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Special thanks

0:31:50.996 --> 0:31:54.196
<v Speaker 1>to Lizette Barton at the Doctors Nicholas and Dorothy Cummings

0:31:54.236 --> 0:31:56.996
<v Speaker 1>Center for the History of Psychology, and to Sarah Nix

0:31:57.196 --> 0:32:04.956
<v Speaker 1>and Greta Cone. I'm Bennatip Haffrey

0:32:09.196 --> 0:32:09.236
<v Speaker 8>O