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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: This is one of the strangest and most bizarre cover

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Speaker 2: ups in the history of American criminal justice. Something really

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Speaker 2: strange happened here, much stranger than fiction.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked and the co host

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled

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Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they

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Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true

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Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those

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Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More

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Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make,

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Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories

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Speaker 1: behind the stories. One of the most studied murder trials

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Speaker 1: in recent history is the case of Kathleen Peterson, which

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Speaker 1: was featured in the TV series The Staircase. Author Teddy

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Speaker 1: Smith recounts the story in his book Death by Talons,

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Speaker 1: and he focuses on the most controversial part of the case,

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Speaker 1: the owl theory. For the one percent of our audience

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Speaker 1: who doesn't know anything about this case, Can you give

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Speaker 1: me the shorthand of what happens in December of two

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Speaker 1: thousand and one in North Carolina with the Petersons at

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Speaker 1: their home.

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Speaker 2: So, on December ninth, two thousand and one, a nine

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Speaker 2: to one one call was made by Michael Peterson at

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Speaker 2: two point forty a m. And the nine one one

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Speaker 2: operator hears Michael saying, quick, come, my wife's had an accident.

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Speaker 2: She's still breathing. And the operator says, what kind of accident?

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Speaker 2: And Michael says, she fell down the stairs. She's still breathing.

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Speaker 2: Please come now. That was at two forty am, at

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Speaker 2: two forty six am. So just six minutes later he

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Speaker 2: calls again, and this time he says, she's stopped breathing.

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Speaker 2: Where are they? And he's sort of frantic, and in fact,

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Speaker 2: an operator just writes down a single word. She wrote

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Speaker 2: down the word hysterical. Now, when the paramedics arrive, they

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Speaker 2: find Michael Peterson in the stairwell holding his wife's body.

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Speaker 2: So this was Kathleen Peterson and she is covered in blood,

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Speaker 2: absolutely drenched, Her hair is drenched in blood. The walls

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Speaker 2: of the stairwell are covered in splatter stains and smear

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Speaker 2: stains and wipes and some strange blood spatter shadows. And

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Speaker 2: when the paramedics check, they find that Kathleen is pretty dead,

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Speaker 2: well dead. They think she's been dead for quite some time,

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Speaker 2: they believe.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: The fire officers who arrive shortly after the paramedics, they

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Speaker 2: walk through the door and they see Kathleen lying there.

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Speaker 2: They see Michael clutching his wife. He's also got blood

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Speaker 2: on pants now, has been holding the body for some time,

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Speaker 2: it seems. When the fire officers enter through that door,

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Speaker 2: they take one look behind and they see that the

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Speaker 2: back of the door is covered in wipes of red blood,

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Speaker 2: great big smear stains. So obviously, when the police arrived

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Speaker 2: shortly after, they know a fall didn't happen, because you

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Speaker 2: can't fall down stairs, they reason, and smear blood all

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Speaker 2: over a front door, you know, in a separate room

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Speaker 2: quite a few meters away. It's really at that point

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Speaker 2: that these two theories about what happened to Kathleen a

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Speaker 2: set in stone right. Either she fell downstairs or at

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Speaker 2: the base of the stairs, as her husband claimed, or

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Speaker 2: she was beaten to death in a brutal homicide by

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Speaker 2: that husband who was now just crying crocodile tears. Now,

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Speaker 2: one point about Kathleen's body that's important to note is

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Speaker 2: that the severe injuries were all found to the back

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Speaker 2: of her head. She had deep lacerations that went down

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Speaker 2: to the skull, and yet there was no bruising to

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Speaker 2: her brain, and her skull wasn't, in fact fractured at all.

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Speaker 2: All that she seemed to have died of were these

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Speaker 2: serious lacerations to the back of her head. Another strange

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Speaker 2: fact about the state of her body was that when

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Speaker 2: she was found, she was holding more than sixty of

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Speaker 2: her own hairs that she had wrenched out from the roots.

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Speaker 2: Around her body were also found, to the astonishment of

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Speaker 2: some of the detectives who arrived, a scattering of pine

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Speaker 2: needles that they couldn't understand why this body, this dead

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Speaker 2: body of this man's wife, was covered in pine needles.

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Speaker 2: Michael is eventually put to trial, and at trial only

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Speaker 2: the two most obvious fairies were put to the jury.

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Speaker 2: Either she fell at the base of the stairs and

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Speaker 2: had a terrible accident, lacerating her scalp and bleeding to death,

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Speaker 2: or she was beaten to death in the stairwell by

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Speaker 2: The prosecution argued a fireplace low poke that usually sat

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Speaker 2: beside the fireplace, but that Michael had used as an

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Speaker 2: improvis weapon, which he then fled out the house and

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Speaker 2: disposed of at some point.

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Speaker 1: What is the prosecutor's theory of the motive of why

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Speaker 1: this would even happen, Why Michael Peterson would murder his wife?

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Speaker 2: In terms of motive, the prosecution actually had two arguments

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Speaker 2: that really contradicted each other subtly, because the first argument

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Speaker 2: is that Michael had killed Kathleen because he suspected that

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Speaker 2: Kathleen was about to be made destitute. Kathleen worked for

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Speaker 2: the telecommunications giant Nortel as a director of information Services.

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Speaker 2: She had climbed up the company ladder there and was

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Speaker 2: now earning a six figure income. So the theory of

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Speaker 2: the prosecution went that Michael, anticipating Kathleen's redundancy, murders Kathleen

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Speaker 2: in order to collect the life insurance policy. Now, part

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Speaker 2: of the reason that Michael was supposed to have done

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Speaker 2: this is that the family were quite heavily in debt.

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Speaker 2: They were in debt to the tune of around one

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand dollars in the day's money. It

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Speaker 2: pays to remember as well, that her life insurance policy

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Speaker 2: was for around about one point two million, so around

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Speaker 2: about you know, we're looking at about ten times as

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Speaker 2: much money from her death as from her life. However,

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Speaker 2: there's not really much evidence that Kathleen did think she

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Speaker 2: was about to be made redundant. Michael didn't seem to

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Speaker 2: believe that she would be made redundant, and really this

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Speaker 2: argument was something of a figment of the state's imagination. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's true that the family were heavily in debt, but

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Speaker 2: then again, they owned the largest domestic property in all

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Speaker 2: of Durham. Michael's first book, A Time of War was

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Speaker 2: sold to Simon and Schuster for six hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: as an advance. Wow, this was an absurdly wealthy family.

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Speaker 2: If they had needed to, they could have sold the

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Speaker 2: house that they lived in Durham and bought another mansion

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Speaker 2: pretty much equally as good. They rarely weren't sort of

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Speaker 2: family that you could call in financial straits. So although

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand to one hundred and fifty thousand debt

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Speaker 2: sounds like a lot to the average person. This was

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Speaker 2: not the average family.

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Speaker 1: What is Nortel saying? Are they saying that she was

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Speaker 1: going to be riffed or let go?

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Speaker 2: All that we know about Nortel's intensions with regard to

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Speaker 2: Kathleen is that she had very briefly been on a

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Speaker 2: list of candidates' names who may have been made redundant.

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Speaker 2: But when I say briefly, that's really quite an understatement.

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Speaker 2: Apparently she was on this list for about three days

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Speaker 2: before she was promptly removed from it. Now nobody knew

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Speaker 2: about this. Kathleen didn't know about it, Michael didn't know

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Speaker 2: about it. The only evidence that we have is the

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Speaker 2: fact that Nortel was not looking like a strong company.

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Speaker 2: In fact, in the year that Kathleen died, they had

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Speaker 2: already laid off more than half of their workforce of

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Speaker 2: ninety four thousand workers. They had gone through the largest

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Speaker 2: life loss of any listed company in the stock exchange.

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Speaker 2: So they were a seriously dwindling company. And it was

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Speaker 2: only around seven or eight years after Kathleen died that

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Speaker 2: the company went bankrupt.

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Speaker 1: So this is a theory that we don't take seriously.

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Speaker 1: This theory it sounds like, well.

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Speaker 2: It's speculation. I mean, perhaps, if Michael did it, maybe

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Speaker 2: that was what he was thinking. But you really do

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Speaker 2: need to get quite imaginative and get inside his brain.

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Speaker 2: When you talk about motive for a crime, and you

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Speaker 2: talk about financial motive in a legal case, you usually

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Speaker 2: need to draw a direct line between the state of

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Speaker 2: the finances and murder. And there just isn't that line here.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about the other theory, which is the one

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Speaker 1: that really we hear the most about in the staircase.

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Speaker 2: That's right, So the other theory, and this is not

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Speaker 2: a theory. In fact, this is a fact. Michael was bisexual.

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Speaker 2: He's open about this. And the theory goes that on

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Speaker 2: the night that Kathleen died, she had in fact opened

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Speaker 2: Michael's in and she discovered Michael contacting we Emailing, a

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Speaker 2: male sex worker who he was seeking to have liaisons with.

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Speaker 2: The idea goes that on discovering these sordid exchanges, Kathleen

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Speaker 2: is aghast, She confronts Michael, rage takes over. They fight,

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Speaker 2: and eventually Michael corners Kathleen and the stairwell with the

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Speaker 2: fireplace blowperk and beats her to death. So once again,

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Speaker 2: like the theory that Michael had killed Kathleen for financial gain.

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Speaker 2: There's very little evidence that Michael killed Kathleen because she

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Speaker 2: discovered any emails. So, for example, there's no evidence that

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Speaker 2: Michael's email was in fact accessed on the night that

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Speaker 2: she died. So we have no reason to believe that

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Speaker 2: Kathleen did discover this fact about Michael. And in fact,

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Speaker 2: even the family or some members of the family claimed

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Speaker 2: that it was something of an open secret, that Michael's

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Speaker 2: sexuality was an accepted fact between the couple. But once again,

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Speaker 2: we don't really know. We don't have much evidence on

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Speaker 2: which we can base any conclusions on this factor. We

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Speaker 2: know is that Michael was bisexual. He may have been

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Speaker 2: seeking extramaritial liaisons with men, and we have no idea

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Speaker 2: if Kathleen knew about this or not.

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Speaker 1: So we see in the series you have some forensic specialists,

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Speaker 1: including Henry Lee, come in and look at the bloodstained

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Speaker 1: pattern and they make some predictions. So can you tell

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Speaker 1: me the facts? So we've talked about there's blood around

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Speaker 1: the staircase and blood in a different room. What is

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Speaker 1: indisputable that everyone agrees on in this case, and then

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Speaker 1: we can move forward with the different theories.

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Speaker 2: So we've already said that on the back of the

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Speaker 2: front door there were great smears of red blood. Again

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Speaker 2: not a fingerprint or two. Not a handprint. These are

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Speaker 2: smears as though there's been some great action at the

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Speaker 2: back of the front door, in the frame of the door,

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Speaker 2: in other words, where the latch meets the lock. All

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Speaker 2: in that area inside the frame there is blood smeared. Again,

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Speaker 2: very strange for there to be blood there. A few

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Speaker 2: fell down the steps outside the house. On the paving

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Speaker 2: stones of the path are at least two drops of

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Speaker 2: blood that seem to have been deposited by an object

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Speaker 2: or person actively dripping fresh blood. So this was very

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Speaker 2: difficult to explain in fact, on either theory, on either

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Speaker 2: the fall or the murder theory. Now when we come

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Speaker 2: to a discussion of the blood inside the stairwell, it's

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Speaker 2: almost impossible to characterize this. In words, there were a

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Speaker 2: vast number of spatter stains, smear stains, wipes. When the

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Speaker 2: scene was finally submitted to analysis, it was discovered that

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Speaker 2: there were more than ten thousand individual spots of blood,

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Speaker 2: many having been flung at high velocity, although at very

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Speaker 2: strange angles. Very few were flung, say overhead, as you

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Speaker 2: might expect in the case of a murder. And strangest

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Speaker 2: of all, there were areas within the stairwell that should

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Speaker 2: have had blood on them that didn't. So, in fact,

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Speaker 2: stranger than all the blood in the stairwell was where

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Speaker 2: there was no blood. On the north wall of the stairwell,

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Speaker 2: there was an area of blood around about two foot

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Speaker 2: wide one foot high where there just seemed to be

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Speaker 2: nothing there. It should have had spray, it should have

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Speaker 2: had spatter. It was almost as though something had got

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Speaker 2: in the road between Kathleen's head wounds and the wall,

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Speaker 2: yet there was no blood there. And then once again,

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Speaker 2: on the two bottom steps of the stairwell, there was

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Speaker 2: very little blood, which made no sense because these were

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Speaker 2: the steps on which Kathleen's head was resting, and her

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Speaker 2: only serious injuries were to the head. So this is

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Speaker 2: a very confusing scene. Apart from those facts of the

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Speaker 2: blood spattered, there were two other marks that were very

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Speaker 2: important to the prosecution's case, and that was that there

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Speaker 2: were two wipe marks on opposite sides of step seventeen.

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Speaker 2: These were about an inch high couple of inches across,

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Speaker 2: and the state argued that Michael had wiped these clean

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Speaker 2: in an effort to tidy up the scene. But it

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Speaker 2: really doesn't make much sense when you look at the

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Speaker 2: tremendous amount of blood in the stairwell, why he would

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Speaker 2: focus his attention on two tiny areas of skirting board,

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Speaker 2: which is apparently what they think he did. Now, there

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Speaker 2: are other areas of blood that are disputed. Importantly, in

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Speaker 2: the kitchen, the forensic team claimed to have found blood

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Speaker 2: on the kitchen benches and on the kitchen cabinets. However,

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Speaker 2: this blood was never photographed, This blood was never filmed,

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Speaker 2: and the blood was never given a forensic test. So

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Speaker 2: at trial, all that was given was the testimony of

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Speaker 2: the officers. Now that's what's disputed. But what is not

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Speaker 2: disputed is the other three areas that we just went over,

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Speaker 2: the door, the front path, and the stairwell.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let's get this out of the way. Is

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Speaker 1: there blood on Michael Peterson at all that would indicate

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Speaker 1: that he was involved in a violent fight or a

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Speaker 1: push or something with his wife or is it simply

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Speaker 1: he's grasping her and it's explainable whatever is on him, Well.

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Speaker 2: I think I think any blood spatter that's on him

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Speaker 2: is explainable. The prosecution made a lot of the fact

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Speaker 2: that there was a blood splatter stain on the inside

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Speaker 2: of his shorts that could only have got there, they

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Speaker 2: argued if he had been standing over Kathleen while blood

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Speaker 2: was spraying. Now, that was the only area that the

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Speaker 2: prosecution really argued was suggestive of Michael's involvement. Apart from

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Speaker 2: that on his clothes, we're really just looking at transfer

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Speaker 2: stains and what seemed to be diluted blood. Now this

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Speaker 2: is complicated by the fact that Kathleen app to have

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Speaker 2: urinated while she was dying, so there appears to have

254
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Speaker 2: been wet urine soaked blood around her body, probably around

255
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Speaker 2: Michael's body as he's holding her. But there's evidence that

256
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Speaker 2: links Michael directly to Kathleen in the blood transfer evidence,

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Speaker 2: and that's the fact that on Kathleen's sweatpants, a footprint,

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Speaker 2: or rather a shoe print from one of Michael's tennis

259
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Speaker 2: sneakers was found at the base of around her ankle.

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Speaker 2: But again it's a mark that's very restricted in movement.

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Speaker 2: It's pointing towards her toe rather than towards her head

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Speaker 2: as you'd expect if he was standing on her and

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Speaker 2: beating her. So there's not much inel Michael had bloody shorts.

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Speaker 2: His shorts were really stained with blood. Other than this,

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Speaker 2: there wasn't much in the way of say, splatter stains

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Speaker 2: or anything all that incriminating. It is suggestive of him

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Speaker 2: clutching his wife who was soaked in blood.

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Speaker 1: My second book was a forensic scientist who investigated a

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Speaker 1: case of a woman who died in a bathtub and

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Speaker 1: the state accused her husband of beating her to death

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Speaker 1: with a lead pipe, and my forensic scientist ended up

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Speaker 1: jumping from the prosecution to the defense. And what his

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Speaker 1: point was is that all the blood that was found

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Speaker 1: on the suspect who was his client, was blood that

275
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Speaker 1: was mixed with the water from the bathtub. There was

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Speaker 1: no arterial blood with the exception of the blood that

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Speaker 1: was mixed with Kathleen's urine. What could they tell could

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Speaker 1: they see whether or not this was arterial blood on him?

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Speaker 1: I mean, is there a way to prove that he

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Speaker 1: was in close proximity beating her versus clutching her or

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Speaker 1: was that just not an option in this case?

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Speaker 2: Well, once again, the only thing that indicated something like

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Speaker 2: an arterial spray was the spray on the inside of

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Speaker 2: his shorts, which was really quite a small area on

285
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Speaker 2: the inside of his shorts. Okay, Then again, because the

286
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Speaker 2: blood seemed to be diluted, you have great difficulty drawing

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Speaker 2: conclusions here. You can infer that it's diluted by urine

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Speaker 2: or maybe by water or whatever. But at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, you can't see how the stains may

290
00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,000
Speaker 2: have been, say originally before they may have been diluted,

291
00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,080
Speaker 2: perhaps if he had been wanting to cover the marks

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Speaker 2: on his shorts. So it's underdetermined. You can't really tell

293
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Speaker 2: one way or the other.

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Speaker 1: And what about the fireplace poker? No blood found on that.

295
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Speaker 1: I remember in the series that being very controversial because

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Speaker 1: it was missing and then it was found sort of

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Speaker 1: in their basement maybe, and it had never been removed,

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Speaker 1: and so there was a lot of confusion around the

299
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:42,479
Speaker 1: origin of that fireplace poker. But all answers would be

300
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Speaker 1: is there blood on there the accused weapon or not?

301
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,399
Speaker 2: No, Well, well there didn't appear to be. It was

302
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Speaker 2: never tested. The prosecution had the opportunity to test it

303
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Speaker 2: if they wanted to, and they chose not to. But

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Speaker 2: there's a fact about the fireplace blowpoke. That is more

305
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,000
Speaker 2: interesting than the fact that it was discovered near the

306
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,840
Speaker 2: end of the trial and was found to be not dented,

307
00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 2: not covered in blood or hair or anything like that.

308
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Speaker 2: And the interesting thing is that, in fact, the police

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Speaker 2: had already discovered it in two thousand and two, they

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00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 2: had photographed it before the trial had commenced. They withheld

311
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Speaker 2: that information from the defense throughout the entire trial. So

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Speaker 2: this was a serious miscarriage of justice here. You know,

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Speaker 2: they searched that house from top to bottom, and they

314
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Speaker 2: did in fact find the blowpoke in two thousand and two.

315
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Speaker 2: I believe it was in June of two thousand and two.

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Speaker 2: Dan George and Eric Campan were the forensic analysts who

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Speaker 2: discovered it. They photographed it, and they put it back

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Speaker 2: where it was. And despite the fact that they sat

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Speaker 2: through the entire trial during which it was argued that

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Speaker 2: the blowpoke was the weapon that had killed Kathleen, they

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Speaker 2: never said a word.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about this owl theory of Larry Pollard's what happens,

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Speaker 1: because I guess I was very confused by the series.

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Speaker 1: I was picturing her at the top of the stairs

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Speaker 1: and an owl flying in and grabbing her by her

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Speaker 1: hair and she falls down the stairs. But that doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound like what the theory is. What does Larry say

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Speaker 1: he believes happened based on the wound pattern on her scalp.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm glad that you mention what you thought it

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Speaker 2: might have looked like originally, because that's what most people

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Speaker 2: think the argument is.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds stupid, to be honest.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Larry received a great deal of ridicule because

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Speaker 2: of the fact that it sounds stupid and it sounds outlandish.

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Speaker 2: But the theory is not that somehow an owl got

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Speaker 2: inside the house and crept up on Kathleen and pushed

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Speaker 2: it down the stairs. The theory is that Kathleen was

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Speaker 2: outside arranging the last of the Christmas decorations, which Larry

339
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,119
Speaker 2: saw had just been set up the previous night on

340
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Speaker 2: Decend the ninth. When he emerged to see all of

341
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:03,719
Speaker 2: the police cars around, he saw that there was a

342
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 2: boals of wood reindeer at the front path that had

343
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,399
Speaker 2: not been there the previous night. Now, his theory goes

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Speaker 2: that this is how you explain the drops of blood

345
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Speaker 2: on the front path, and that in fact, the drops

346
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,119
Speaker 2: on the front path are the first drops of her blood.

347
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Speaker 2: Those are the drops that are leading the way to

348
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Speaker 2: her body. It's not the other way around like the

349
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 2: prosecution thought. The prosecution believed that Kathleen had been beaten

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Speaker 2: to death by Michael, and then Michael carried the weapon

351
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,719
Speaker 2: out the door down the path dripping blood. Larry believed

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Speaker 2: what happened was the drops of blood had been left

353
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Speaker 2: when an owl attacked Kathleen on the front path, causing

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Speaker 2: these serious lacerations to her scalp. And then Kathleen runs

355
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Speaker 2: up the path through the open door and at the stairwell,

356
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:53,680
Speaker 2: she's about to run up, maybe to the upstairs bathroom

357
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 2: or something, she slips on her own blood and bangs

358
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 2: her head, causing a concussion which, combined with these deep

359
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 2: lesser causes her to just bleed out while unconscious. That's

360
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,480
Speaker 2: all that Larry's theory is. It's not that much more

361
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 2: complicated than that. But again, like you showed really well,

362
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 2: I think most people think it has something to do

363
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: with an ol inside the house pushing her down the

364
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 2: stairs or something. The evidence that Larry had for his theory, firstly,

365
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 2: he had the wounds on the back of Kathleen's head.

366
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 2: That was the first thing that made him think of

367
00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,760
Speaker 2: a bird, and in fact, the first thing he thought

368
00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 2: was turkey. Then he realized, oh, it was late at night.

369
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,199
Speaker 2: Maybe OL. Now, once he began to realize that it

370
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 2: could have been an ol, he asked for more photos

371
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 2: of the autopsy scene, and he found that Kathleen's elbows

372
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 2: had been pierced three times apiece, like the points of

373
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 2: equilateral triangles. Now, these are suggestive of what would be

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00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: talon punctures if Kathleen was attempting to cover her head,

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Speaker 2: And there were other injuries on Kathleen's face that were

376
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 2: compatible with, say the grasp of talons or the kick

377
00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 2: of talons against the face. All of these wounds are

378
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 2: very close to the eyes. It pays to mention which

379
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 2: is where most owls and birds of praise and their

380
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 2: prior attacks on humans tend to focus their attacks.

381
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 1: Well, now I have many questions about owls when we

382
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: get to that in the behavior of owls. We have

383
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 1: owls in our yard, and now I am concerned. I've

384
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 1: always been concerned because we have smallish dogs. First of all,

385
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: I remember I don't know if it was Larry who

386
00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: said this, but I remember people saying when this issue

387
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 1: was brought up that this is not unprecedented. Her death

388
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: might have been, but that owl attacks were not unusual

389
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: in this area of North Carolina.

390
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and you should be concerned if you have small

391
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: dogs that run around the yard at nice or anything

392
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: like that. In fact, I'm rather proud of the fact

393
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,239
Speaker 2: that the book has an entire chapter dedicated to the

394
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 2: history of owl attacks in North America over the last

395
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: hundred years or so. I mean, there are several serious

396
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 2: attacks on humans every year, and yeah, several small dogs

397
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: have been killed. Cats are killed all the time. In fact,

398
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 2: a Gordon Setter was once killed by an owl, which

399
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 2: is a relatively large dog.

400
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: Wow.

401
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 2: But Kathleen's death was not, in fact unprecedented in the

402
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 2: history of owl attacks on human bands and I discussed

403
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 2: the case of a Californian trucker, a man called Robert Schmidt,

404
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 2: who died in nineteen eighty five after colliding in fact,

405
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: with an owl on a California roadside. And this was

406
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: an absolute mystery for the coroners of the day to explain.

407
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 2: So when you look at the attack of Robert Schmidt,

408
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 2: and you look also at the more severe attacks on

409
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 2: other humans that have occurred over the last hundred years,

410
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: attacks that have led to lost eyes, serious lacerations to

411
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: the scalp, limbs injured, even loss of hearing in some cases.

412
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 2: It's really not that surprising that a large bird of

413
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 2: prey and our in this case, could inflict life threatening

414
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: or in fact fatal injuries on human beings.

415
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: Is there a way to test ol DNA to find

416
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 1: out if the wounds in her head have any sort

417
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 1: of biological connection to a bird of prey.

418
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: Well, that's what Larry wanted to do. Larry wanted to

419
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 2: see if he could have Kathleen's body exhumed to test

420
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: for the presence of owl DNA. And look, I'm not

421
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 2: a geneticist. I don't know if you can do that

422
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: or not. But that wasn't all that Larry did. He

423
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 2: actually requested, or rather, he wrote a letter to the

424
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 2: district Attorney asking them directly, look, were any feathers discovered

425
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 2: in the course of the investigation, you know, feathers that

426
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,439
Speaker 2: might link an owl to the death. And Larry received

427
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 2: a reply from the DA that simply said, Dear Larry,

428
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 2: we appreciate your letter. We're pretty confident that the Jerry

429
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: made the right yadda, yadda. No feathers were discovered during

430
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 2: the YadA yadda, thanks very much. The DA. Now Larry,

431
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,120
Speaker 2: because he had previously worked at the Special Prosecutor's Division

432
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 2: in Durham, he thought to himself, well, I'm not one

433
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 2: hundred percent sure that I believe that. So he went

434
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: behind the DA's back to his old place of work

435
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,920
Speaker 2: and he said, look, do you think I could get

436
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: that trace evidence report in the Peterson case? And a

437
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: friend of his said, yeah, all right, Larry, we'll sort

438
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: it out for you. He got the trace evidence report,

439
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: he started reading it and just on the very first page,

440
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: a few lines down, there was reference made to a

441
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 2: microscope slide with one of Kathleen's hairs on it. Full description,

442
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: page three. So Larry flicked through to the description and

443
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 2: it said color straw pulled from the root, blood noted

444
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: on hairshaft in shaft a feather and Larry was absolutely

445
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: shocked by this. He obviously was angry as hell, threw

446
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: down the papers and demanded to have a look at

447
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 2: the microscope slide. When he eventually had a look at

448
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: this scope slide with the assistance and an expert, that's

449
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,360
Speaker 2: when they found there and then in the District Attorney's

450
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 2: office that the original report had made an error. This

451
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,200
Speaker 2: was not one feather, this was two. There were two

452
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 2: feather fragments attached in blood to the hairshaft. This was

453
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: the evidence on which Larry tried to base a motion

454
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: for appropriate relief to have Michael's guilty verdict vacated.

455
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: The splatters and the bloodstained pattern. Is that at this

456
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: point do you think junk science in this case or

457
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 1: misleading in all different directions in this case? Is there

458
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: a way for the blood to tell a definitive story

459
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: about what happened, including the owl theory.

460
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: Well, that's a very difficult question to answer, because when

461
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 2: you're doing an analysis of anything, theory comes into it. Now,

462
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 2: if you want to explain how the blood could have

463
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: been consistent with a fall, of course you'll be a

464
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 2: You'll come up with all sorts of auxiliary hypotheses that

465
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: help you explain how it might have happened in such

466
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: and such a way. Or if you want to explain

467
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 2: it in terms of a murder, well, of course you're

468
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: going to be able to find a way. You'll just say, well,

469
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,120
Speaker 2: he must have hit her like this, or he must

470
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: have heard her like that, and if you want to

471
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: explain it in terms, I mean, this is just the

472
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 2: problem of theories in view data with their interpretations. So

473
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 2: it's not so much that blood spatter analysis is junk science.

474
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: It's the fact that if you have a trial where

475
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 2: everyone is competing to win for their side, everyone's going

476
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 2: to find a way to make their evidence compatible with it.

477
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just what a criminal trial is, right.

478
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: I think if you've got an impartial very difficult thing

479
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: to find. But I think if you found an impartial

480
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 2: blood spatter technician to have a look at that scene

481
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 2: and what it truly showed, I'm sure you would have

482
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 2: found a very different result to anything that Henry Lee

483
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: or Duyne Diver might have said. I think both of

484
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: their accounts were radically wrong. In fact, most people with

485
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: a working brain can see that it was really quite

486
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 2: obviously wrong that theory.

487
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: When we have this discovery of you know, feathers at

488
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 1: the scene in her hair, does that sway anybody at

489
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 1: that point the defense or the prosecution.

490
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: Oh, this is this is well past that point though, right.

491
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: So Larry put forward a motion for appropriate relief in

492
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 2: which he cited the discovery of the new feathers, they

493
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 2: shot it down. The district attorney shot it down as

494
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: quote ridiculous, phantasma, goricle or whatever the word is, and

495
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: I mean, they just ridiculed it. The discovery of the

496
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: new feathers did change many minds, I think around Durham,

497
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: around the world, because this was now a worldwide famous trial.

498
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: But you know, at the same time, these were very

499
00:28:54,880 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 2: small feather fragments that were discovered, and anybody who wish

500
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: to continue to believe that Michael was the murderer could

501
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: simply say, well, maybe Kathleen had a ripped duvet, or

502
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 2: maybe her pillow was a bit holy, or you know,

503
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: there's always a way you can explain these things away.

504
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 2: But the fact of the matter is Larry predicted, by

505
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 2: the power of sheared deduction that there should be feathers

506
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 2: in her hair. That's quite a remarkable thing.

507
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: But you said he was ridiculed after that happened. Aside

508
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: from the prosecution, is this also in the media? Was

509
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: he questioned a lot? Did he feel harassed?

510
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 2: Larry had a dreadful time after first putting forward his theory.

511
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: He first puts forward the theory around about December of

512
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: two thousand and three, so a couple of months after

513
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: the trial had finished. The first trial, there was a

514
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: media frenzy in the aftermath. Really, I mean, the collective

515
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 2: gasp of Durham was just deafening. He was relentlessly mocked, ridiculed,

516
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: found it difficult to walk down the street, go into town.

517
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: And you know, his poor wife, who stood beside him

518
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: the whole way, believing he might have been onto something,

519
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,959
Speaker 2: you know, would have to tell herself daily, you know,

520
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: for better for worse, for better for worse. It had

521
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: a terrible strain on their marriage. But he didn't give up,

522
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 2: you know, he kept working and in many ways, you know,

523
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: this book is a story about being strong in the

524
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 2: face of ridicule and being strong in the face of

525
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: the doubt of your peers, and Larry is perhaps he's

526
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: a very very strong example of that strength of character,

527
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,479
Speaker 2: and I commend him for that, even though, as you'll

528
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 2: see in my book, you'll find I think that he

529
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: got things ever so slightly wrong.

530
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:40,959
Speaker 1: What do you think he got wrong?

531
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: Larry believed that the bird attacked Kathleen outside, that it

532
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: then sort of swooped away off her head before she

533
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 2: fell on the stairwell. My theory is that, in fact,

534
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: the bird remained connected to her head as she ran

535
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 2: into the house and inside the stairwell, And that opens

536
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: in an incredibly large can of worms about how this

537
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: case really stands. But there is a lot of evidence

538
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: to recommend it. In fact, I think there's a lot

539
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 2: more evidence to recommend it than Larry's original theory.

540
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: Do animal experts experts in owl behavior agree with Larry's

541
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: theory that this is something that is viable, that this

542
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 1: is something an owl would do, and it could create

543
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: the amount of damage that we're talking about on her

544
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: elbows and on her scalp. Oh.

545
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 2: Absolutely. In fact, it was most of the expert witnesses

546
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: who Larry attached to the motion for appropriate relief were ornithologists,

547
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 2: and they were all in unison that this is perfectly

548
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 2: within the repertoire of large birds of prey. In fact,

549
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: one ornithologist called Kate Davis, who runs an organization called

550
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 2: Raptors of the Rockies in Montana. She said that she

551
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: was kind of shocked because when she saw photos of

552
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: the autopsy and saw the shape of the wounds, these

553
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: little puncture marks around Kathleen's eyes, she remembered that a

554
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: colleague of her had been attacked around two or three

555
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 2: years before by a spotted owl, which is a close

556
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: relative of the bard owl, and that it left almost

557
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 2: identical impressions on her colleague's face.

558
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 1: What is the defense's reaction to all of this, I

559
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: know this comes two years later, right after the initial charges,

560
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: And what is Michael Peterson's reaction to this theory of Larry's?

561
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: So far as I understand it now, Michael believes that

562
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: an owl was involved. But more importantly, I think, is

563
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 2: what the defense thought of the theory. Larry approached the

564
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: defense lawyers just around the close of the trial and

565
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: he said to them, look, I've got this theory. I

566
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: don't know what you're going to make of it. I

567
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: have a feeling an owl might be responsible for Kathleen's death.

568
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,959
Speaker 2: And they just shrugged it off. Really. Once the trial

569
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: was over and Michael was found guilty, they admitted that

570
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: they had no part in this theory and wouldn't be

571
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: pursuing it. And it seems that they believed that the

572
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: only hope for Michael's release and for Michael's freedom was

573
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: to pursue these more specific procedural problems in the original trial.

574
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: In other words, to say, well, Dwayne Deaver, you know,

575
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 2: he's had this history of prior cases where he's been

576
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 2: a liar. And you know, look at Dan George's behavior

577
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 2: in the crime scene video. Why are there so many

578
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 2: cuts through the video? And you know, they wanted to

579
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: really base their claim for a retrial on procedural matters

580
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: rather than developing an entirely new and quite outrageous theory

581
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: that they thought no jury would buy.

582
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: So where do things end up with Larry Is he

583
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: just ridiculed? And then slowly the whole story fades away

584
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 1: because I know that this has been two decades since

585
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 1: this has all really been in the news consistently.

586
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: Well, for anyone unfamiliar with the case, it's probably imptant

587
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: to note that the end was reached when Michael Peterson

588
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 2: took what's called an Alfred plea, and that means that

589
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: he pled guilty to manslaughter when a new trial was ordered.

590
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 2: But he pled guilty in the understanding that he was

591
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: pleading guilty because he believed any reasonable jury would likely

592
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 2: find him guilty. In other words, he wasn't saying I

593
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,919
Speaker 2: am guilty and so I plead guilty. He was saying, look,

594
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: I didn't do it, but any reasonable jury will find

595
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 2: me guilty, so I'll plead guilty. So he was released

596
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 2: after pleading guilty to this lesser charge of manslaughter because

597
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 2: he was subject to time already served. So then he

598
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: was free and that was the end of it. So

599
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 2: he spent eight years inside. A retrial was called and

600
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,799
Speaker 2: he pled guilty under this altered plea arrangement. Now, as

601
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: for Larry, that was the end of it too. It

602
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: might not have been the end of his attempts to

603
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: regain some standing and to regain some on in some

604
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 2: sense of dignity through the dissemination of this theory through

605
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: the media, but it was very much the end of

606
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: any further legal challenges that might be mounted. And as

607
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: a lawyer himself, this was probably the most upsetting thing

608
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: that he could never present his case in court.

609
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: What do you think most Americans who know this story

610
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: really think happened? Where do you think most people fall,

611
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: particularly after seeing the staircase, that he was guilty, that

612
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: he was innocent, that this owl did it.

613
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: I really like that question. I think the majority of

614
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 2: people think Michael did it, and they think he did

615
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: it because he was bisexual, and he was secretive, and

616
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: he was behaving strangely and frankly. You know, let's be honest,

617
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 2: He's a weirdo. He's a complete, bloody weirdo.

618
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: He seems like a strange man. He's off putting for sure,

619
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:55,720
Speaker 1: but that doesn't make him guilty.

620
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, I'm a weirdo. And I hope any bit

621
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 2: of an owl attacked my wife. I hope they wouldn't go. Well.

622
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:05,399
Speaker 2: He was always a weirdo, so put him away, you know. Yeah,

623
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 2: Michael was a bloody weirdo, you know, and maybe that's

624
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 2: why I've written this book, you know, as a weirdo myself,

625
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: I have some sympathy for him. But you know, and

626
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: let's be clear. I want to actually be quite clear

627
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 2: about this. There are many episodes in the history of

628
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 2: Michael Peterson's life that are not very pristine, that are

629
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 2: not very clear. There's very strong evidence that he has

630
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 2: lied about very serious things. There's some evidence indicating that

631
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: he may have killed other people in the past. This

632
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 2: book is not intended to defend Michael Peterson, or even

633
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: really to defend his innocence. It's certainly not meant to

634
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: defend the idea that he's a great person. This book

635
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: is only a discussion of the evidence in this case

636
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: and what it best supports. This is one of the

637
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: things that annoys me about this case is that people

638
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 2: seem to think that it's very simple. It's not simple

639
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 2: at all, and I think, in fact, this is one

640
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 2: of the strange and most bizarre cover ups in the

641
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 2: history of American criminal justice. Something really strange happened here,

642
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 2: much stranger than fiction.

643
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: Is Larry alive still? And if so? Did he have

644
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: a reaction to your book?

645
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,839
Speaker 2: Larry has read some chapters. I'm yet to send through

646
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 2: the hard copy to him, and I'd be very interested

647
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: to see what his reaction is. I anticipate it as

648
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: much as I fear it. Although he's a lovely man

649
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,279
Speaker 2: with some very interesting ideas, he's also perhaps one of

650
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 2: the most hard headed people I've ever met.

651
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 1: What part of the book do you think he might

652
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: be sensitive about or disagree just the way that you're

653
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: framing his theory, or the vulnerability he felt when he

654
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 1: was being attacked by everyone.

655
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely not the latter. I feel as though an

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00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 2: important part of the book is showing how vilified and

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00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: ridiculed Larry was for putting forward very sensible theory. It

658
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 2: was just the fact that nobody really understood what he

659
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 2: was trying to say. So I know that he won't

660
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 2: have an issue with that part. In fact, he's read

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00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 2: that part and I know that he's happy enough with it,

662
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 2: But he will be rather aggravated by the fact that

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00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 2: I believe that his theory is wrong and that there's

664
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: forensic evidence inside the house of a bird's presence that

665
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 2: proves that the attack was not limited to the outside path.

666
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: What are lessons learned from this story? Do you think

667
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: specifically your angle of this story, what's the lesson learned here?

668
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,919
Speaker 2: Beware of ridicule. You know, it's very easy to mark

669
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: or make fun of new theories that you don't understand,

670
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 2: and it's very easy to deride the individuals who put

671
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: forward those theories. But you know, I guess the lesson is,

672
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 2: reserve your ridicule for once you've looked through all the evidence.

673
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: Then ridicule the way, make as much fun as you want.

674
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 2: But I think I think in this case, the most

675
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 2: upsetting feature of it really is witnessing so many people

676
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 2: misunderstand what Larry is even trying to say and what

677
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 2: evidence his theory is based on, and yet they're just

678
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: there's this gleeful mockery that was filling the newspapers, that

679
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: was all through the media, and none of it even

680
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: had a sort of basic grasp of the evidence that

681
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 2: he found to support his theory. And you know, just

682
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 2: because the theory sounds outrageous, it's not good justification to

683
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 2: ruin somebody's life, and I think his life really was

684
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: ruined through those decades.

685
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: A postcript to this story today, Smith says that Larry Pollard,

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00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: the neighbor who developed the owl theory, had read Death

687
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: by Talons and has now changed his mind. He has

688
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: come around to the view that a bird made its

689
00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 1: way inside the house. If you love historical true crime stories,

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00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: check out the audio versions of my books The Ghost Club,

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00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been

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00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

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Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Alex Chi. This episode was mixed

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00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by

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00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgariff and

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00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at

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00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 1: tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. And

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Speaker 1: if you know of a historical crime that could use

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00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email

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Speaker 1: us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take

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00:40:50,200 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 1: your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words