1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,560
Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,800
Speaker 2: And welcome back to Coast to Coast George Nori with you.

3
00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,639
Speaker 2: Brian Towey with US America's leading expert on game fixing

4
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,960
Speaker 2: and sports, and is recognized as a scholarly authority by

5
00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:19,360
Speaker 2: the United States Supreme Court. He has worked with the

6
00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 2: Center for Investigative Reporting to produce an article for Sports Illustrated,

7
00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,080
Speaker 2: has been a guest on more than two hundred and

8
00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:30,360
Speaker 2: fifty national and local radio programs, as well as spoken

9
00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,440
Speaker 2: at the Walter Kronkite School of Journalism at Arizona State

10
00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,360
Speaker 2: University and Columbia College in Chicago. His latest book is

11
00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,680
Speaker 2: called The Fix Is Still In Brian, welcome to the program.

12
00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,040
Speaker 3: Good evening, George, How are you great.

13
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,320
Speaker 2: How big an industry is sports betting? It seems to

14
00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:50,960
Speaker 2: be growing.

15
00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:52,440
Speaker 3: Oh it is.

16
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,920
Speaker 4: I mean it's a very corporate world. It's a multi

17
00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 4: billion dollar industry. The scary thing is is nobody really

18
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:02,800
Speaker 4: was how much money is bet on sports in the

19
00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,600
Speaker 4: United States around the world, because the vast majority of

20
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,320
Speaker 4: it is still done through illegal websites, through illegal bookmakers.

21
00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:13,200
Speaker 4: So we know, you know, on one hand, how much

22
00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,880
Speaker 4: is being bet legally but being bet across the board

23
00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 4: on all sports. Nobody really knows. It's literally hundreds of

24
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,800
Speaker 4: billions of dollars that are bet on sports every year.

25
00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean years ago, the mob used to control

26
00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:26,640
Speaker 2: all of it, didn't they.

27
00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,399
Speaker 4: For the most part, Yes, they were. That was really

28
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,800
Speaker 4: one of their biggest money makers. That and actually the

29
00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,320
Speaker 4: loan sharking that went along with it to losing better.

30
00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 4: So you know, they would book your bets and you

31
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,399
Speaker 4: would lose, and then you would borrow money from the

32
00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,560
Speaker 4: mob to pay back the mob basically.

33
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:43,520
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was.

34
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,240
Speaker 4: It was a great, great business practice for you know,

35
00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 4: illegal gambling organization crime.

36
00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:51,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, then they.

37
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 2: Broke your arm or leg or it even worse if

38
00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:54,880
Speaker 2: you could pay them.

39
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,279
Speaker 3: Back, Yeah, exactly. That was that was their motive.

40
00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 2: How did you get involved in investigating sports betting?

41
00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,040
Speaker 4: Well, it kind of fell into it accidentally in a way.

42
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,240
Speaker 4: I mean I wrote my original book that fixes in

43
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,160
Speaker 4: back in twenty ten, and I kind of discovered really

44
00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,119
Speaker 4: on accident that no one seemed to be looking at

45
00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:17,920
Speaker 4: this subject matter. They didn't seem to be looking too

46
00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,320
Speaker 4: hard at sports gambling the United States because it was

47
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 4: really completely illegal outside of Nevada, and so because it

48
00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,200
Speaker 4: was an unexplored space, I kind of stepped in and

49
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,600
Speaker 4: filled that void and started looking into it and seeing

50
00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,560
Speaker 4: what was really going on. And you know, it seemed

51
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,519
Speaker 4: like there was a lot of corruption that was being

52
00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,600
Speaker 4: overlooked by the mainstream sports media.

53
00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:42,640
Speaker 2: And when you say, Brian, the fixes in what do

54
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:43,440
Speaker 2: you mean by that?

55
00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 4: Well, I kind of look at game fixing from two angles.

56
00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,239
Speaker 4: One is the conspiracy side of it, where I believe

57
00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 4: the sports leagues manipulate their own games for television purposes

58
00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:58,280
Speaker 4: and for ratings to get people to watch more. But

59
00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,040
Speaker 4: also from the angle of sports gambling, where you know, mobsters,

60
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 4: gamblers pay people, bribe people to fix the outcome of games,

61
00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,480
Speaker 4: whether it's point shaving in basketball or football, or across

62
00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,600
Speaker 4: the world game fixing in soccer and cricket and all

63
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:16,440
Speaker 4: these other sports.

64
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,680
Speaker 2: Roughly, how many sports figures that are out there do

65
00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:23,160
Speaker 2: you think are involved in this?

66
00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:28,120
Speaker 4: It's really hard to say. If you want to talk

67
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,720
Speaker 4: about the gambling aspect of it. We know for a

68
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:36,880
Speaker 4: fact that just to probably maybe ten years ago, at

69
00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:40,000
Speaker 4: least fifty countries around the world fifty five to zero

70
00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,320
Speaker 4: had active investigations into game fixing and sport. I mean,

71
00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,240
Speaker 4: you look at India with the India Premier League and

72
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,880
Speaker 4: cricket that is known to be corrupt from literally top

73
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:53,760
Speaker 4: to bottom, from the ownership of the league all the

74
00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,160
Speaker 4: way down to the players, referees, coaches, what have you.

75
00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,120
Speaker 3: You look at Serie A Soccer.

76
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,120
Speaker 4: Which is the basically the NFL of Italy, and we

77
00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 4: know that league is corrupt from top to bottom. We

78
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,520
Speaker 4: know games have been fixed in soccer and La Liga

79
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,600
Speaker 4: in Spain. We know Bundesliga games in Germany. Soccer has

80
00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 4: been fixed. We know you know, Chinese baseball games have

81
00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:17,520
Speaker 4: been fixed. We know you know, games have been fixed

82
00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 4: supposedly all over the world in so many different countries

83
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,440
Speaker 4: and continue to be you know, attacked by these game

84
00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:28,960
Speaker 4: fixing organizations. Yet somehow, in the United States we think

85
00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,480
Speaker 4: and believe that our games are untouchable for some reason.

86
00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:33,839
Speaker 4: And I find it funny that, you know, a crime

87
00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,880
Speaker 4: that exists all over the world, literally spanning the globe,

88
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,720
Speaker 4: somehow does not exist in the United States. And I'd

89
00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,839
Speaker 4: like to, you know, somebody tell me another crime that's

90
00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:44,039
Speaker 4: global that does not.

91
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:45,560
Speaker 3: Also happen in the United States.

92
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,680
Speaker 2: Besides game fixing and brian to fix the game, do

93
00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,479
Speaker 2: you need participants on both sides, both teams.

94
00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:54,520
Speaker 3: Oh no, not at all.

95
00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,560
Speaker 4: In fact, you really if you wanted to look legitimate,

96
00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,560
Speaker 4: you really only need one side. I mean you think

97
00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,159
Speaker 4: of like a boxing match or a tennis match. You

98
00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:06,279
Speaker 4: don't want both participants involved in that game to be

99
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,400
Speaker 4: in on the fix. You only need the one person.

100
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,359
Speaker 4: You know, you only need the one boxer who's going

101
00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,600
Speaker 4: to take a dive, or the one, you know, a

102
00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 4: tennis player who's going to keep hitting the ball into

103
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,960
Speaker 4: the net and make all these unforced errors. But at

104
00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,880
Speaker 4: the same time, game pictures that have gotten so sophisticated,

105
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,120
Speaker 4: especially some of these syndicates out of the Far East

106
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,719
Speaker 4: that are fixing soccer matches around the world, they can

107
00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,480
Speaker 4: literally determine the outcome of soccer matches. They will literally

108
00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,360
Speaker 4: say we want this game to end three to one,

109
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,240
Speaker 4: which means both teams are involved and the game will

110
00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,799
Speaker 4: end three to one. They will get the exact result

111
00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,640
Speaker 4: they're out to to bet on, and they will make

112
00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,080
Speaker 4: it happen. And they've done this repeatedly and it's been

113
00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,480
Speaker 4: proven that it's been done. It's not a conspiracy theory.

114
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,480
Speaker 4: It's something that is literally people have been you know,

115
00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,160
Speaker 4: arrested for tried for it, and convicted for it. So

116
00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,359
Speaker 4: I mean, it's not a conspiracy theory to think that

117
00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,360
Speaker 4: games are being fixed worldwide right now today, because it

118
00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:05,080
Speaker 4: is happening.

119
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,039
Speaker 2: Brian, is it obvious to an expert like yourself to

120
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,960
Speaker 2: see somebody fix the game just by watching the game?

121
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,039
Speaker 3: You know, it can be.

122
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 4: I mean some things, especially like like the Chinese Baseball

123
00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,520
Speaker 4: League for example, which is you know, obviously not a

124
00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,800
Speaker 4: big like Major League Baseball, but I mean they literally

125
00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:27,840
Speaker 4: have people yelling at players to miss you know, pop

126
00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,520
Speaker 4: ups and drop them because of the way they've fed

127
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,960
Speaker 4: on games. You know, there's a like a soccer league

128
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,200
Speaker 4: in Canada, which again is small potatoes, but they estimate

129
00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:40,840
Speaker 4: that somewhere around fifty percent of the games there are

130
00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 4: being fixed by gamblers because who's you know, really paying

131
00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,520
Speaker 4: attention to Canadian soccer.

132
00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:47,360
Speaker 3: No one.

133
00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,440
Speaker 4: But at the same time, you know, it's funny you

134
00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:53,200
Speaker 4: read you go back through history, like Joe Namath back

135
00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,440
Speaker 4: in the late nineteen sixties was accused potentially of fixing

136
00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 4: games because there's a couple of games during their Super

137
00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,960
Speaker 4: Bowl run back in nineteen sixty eight where Joe Ama

138
00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,440
Speaker 4: threw like five interceptions in the game, and he was,

139
00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:08,920
Speaker 4: you know, kind of approached saying, you know, geez, where

140
00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,080
Speaker 4: you're throwing these games? And he said, look, he goes,

141
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,600
Speaker 4: if I was going to fix a game, I wouldn't make.

142
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:14,400
Speaker 3: It that obvious.

143
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,000
Speaker 4: You know, I would just barely miss a receiver, or

144
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,000
Speaker 4: I would just lead a receiver in a certain way

145
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 4: right underthrow pass whoever, he goes, I wouldn't throw five interceptions.

146
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,600
Speaker 4: I wouldn't make it that blatant. And so I mean,

147
00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,160
Speaker 4: there are very subtle ways of fixing these matches.

148
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:29,280
Speaker 3: And even you go back further.

149
00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,320
Speaker 4: Lefty Rosenthal, who the character of Ace Rothstein in the

150
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:38,200
Speaker 4: Martin Scarcese film Casino was based on Lefty left He

151
00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,680
Speaker 4: used to pay college players to practice missing layups, so

152
00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,960
Speaker 4: when he was fixing college basketball games, the kids would

153
00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,200
Speaker 4: do it so convincingly nobody would necessarily notice what was

154
00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:48,680
Speaker 4: going on.

155
00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 2: Well with Brian Toy, his latest book is called The

156
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:56,320
Speaker 2: Fix is Still In More corruption and consequences that the

157
00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:02,600
Speaker 2: pro sports leagues don't want you to know about. Who

158
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,000
Speaker 2: in the industry has been your influence?

159
00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,720
Speaker 4: Well, my two probably biggest influences in the getting in

160
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,160
Speaker 4: of this was one what's a guy by the name

161
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,160
Speaker 4: of Dan Moldea and some of your listeners may know

162
00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,720
Speaker 4: of him. He wrote about the rfk assassination, and he

163
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,200
Speaker 4: wrote about Jimmie Hoffa, Jimmy Hoffe yes and an organized crime.

164
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,560
Speaker 4: But he also wrote a book called Interference, How Organized

165
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,680
Speaker 4: Crime Influences the NFL, And that was a big influence

166
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 4: to me because you know, the NFL states in its

167
00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:36,559
Speaker 4: one hundred plus year history now that they've never once, never, once,

168
00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,160
Speaker 4: according to the NFL, had a game fixed by organized

169
00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:43,440
Speaker 4: crime or gamblers or by anybody. And Moldea, through his

170
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,600
Speaker 4: research that identified I think over seventy games that were

171
00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,800
Speaker 4: likely fixed exactly by organized crime or gamblers that the

172
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,080
Speaker 4: NFL says has never happened. And his book came out

173
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,079
Speaker 4: in the late nineteen eighties, might have been like Ground

174
00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,520
Speaker 4: eighty nine. And to me it was really eye opening

175
00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 4: and shocking because this was the sort of thing that

176
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,880
Speaker 4: most sports writers never talked about. You know, you would

177
00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,000
Speaker 4: read books about sports like I did growing up, and

178
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,480
Speaker 4: it'd always be this raw ros stuff and all, wasn't

179
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,199
Speaker 4: this a funny story? Or look what happened in the

180
00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,199
Speaker 4: locker room, and then there'd be like two pages of

181
00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,120
Speaker 4: you know, something really bizarre, like you know, the Dallas

182
00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,240
Speaker 4: Cowboys had this you know, cocaine and stripper party that

183
00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,480
Speaker 4: went on for weeks at a time and whatever, and

184
00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,079
Speaker 4: then it would be kind of ignored and go back

185
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,840
Speaker 4: to the raw ross stuff. And well, Dya wrote about

186
00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:30,920
Speaker 4: you know, these kind of corruption things and this investigative

187
00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,880
Speaker 4: stuff that nobody ever seemed to touch on. So that

188
00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,079
Speaker 4: was an influence for me. And another book was written

189
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:42,080
Speaker 4: by all his name scaped me Bernie Parish, and Bernie

190
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,440
Speaker 4: was a former player for the Cleveland Browns and went

191
00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,760
Speaker 4: on to be a long time participant in the NFL

192
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,480
Speaker 4: Players Association their union, and his book, which was written

193
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 4: around nineteen seventy seventy one something like that, called they

194
00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,120
Speaker 4: Call It a Game. He wrote how he believed when

195
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,160
Speaker 4: the big networks like CBS bought into the NFL, he

196
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,480
Speaker 4: felt like they actually kind of almost purchased the league

197
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,400
Speaker 4: and turned it from being football into a television show.

198
00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,440
Speaker 4: And he kind of questioned legitimacy of a lot of games,

199
00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,880
Speaker 4: including Super Bowl three. And I kind of put those

200
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,760
Speaker 4: two ideas together that maybe the league and the television

201
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,320
Speaker 4: networks are manipulating games in a certain way, and then

202
00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,400
Speaker 4: you have this organized crime and mob influence on the NFL,

203
00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,600
Speaker 4: and it maybe really wonder what's going on professional sports

204
00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:29,120
Speaker 4: these days.

205
00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 2: Do there's straight players Brian, the good ones who don't fix,

206
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 2: who don't shave. Do they know when one of their

207
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 2: teammates may be doing this? Oh?

208
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 3: I think so.

209
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,600
Speaker 4: I think it's it's obvious to somebody on the inside.

210
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,439
Speaker 4: I mean, I think players are more aware of things

211
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,880
Speaker 4: than we give them credit for. I think you know,

212
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:52,319
Speaker 4: you hear a lot of times players and coaches will

213
00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:54,720
Speaker 4: complain about, for example, the officiating, whether it's in an

214
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,520
Speaker 4: NFL game or an NBA game, and you know, to

215
00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,200
Speaker 4: do so these days you could find for it, you

216
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 4: get penalized by the league. So they try to actually

217
00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,760
Speaker 4: shut the players up right from the get go. But

218
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,959
Speaker 4: still there's certain times when you clearly hear them talking

219
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,320
Speaker 4: about stuff where especially like recently, for example, the Kansas

220
00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:15,080
Speaker 4: City Chiefs and they're run to their recent Super Bowls.

221
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,880
Speaker 4: You know, players will openly say, we're not just playing

222
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:22,360
Speaker 4: the Chiefs. We're playing the Chiefs and the referees, and

223
00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,920
Speaker 4: we have to be both in order to win the game.

224
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,480
Speaker 4: And you know, I'm sure that's something in the NFL

225
00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,960
Speaker 4: doesn't want widely spread, but the players are not dummies.

226
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,640
Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

227
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 1: one am Eastern, and go to Coast to coastam dot

228
00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:39,760
Speaker 1: com for more