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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, this is Lee Clasgow when We're Talking Transports.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports podcast. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Lee Clasgow, Senior Free Transportation logistic Chandles at Bloomberg Intelligence,

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg's in house research arm of almost five hundred analysts

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Speaker 1: and strategists around the globe. A quick public service announcement

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Speaker 1: before we dive in. Your support is instrumental to keep

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Speaker 1: bringing great guests and conversations to you, our listeners, and

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Speaker 1: we need your support, so please, if you enjoy the podcast,

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Speaker 1: share it, like it and leave a comment. Also, if

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Speaker 1: you have ideas, feedback, or just want to talk transports,

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Speaker 1: I'm always happy to connect. You can find me on

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg terminal, LinkedIn, or on x at Logistics. Lee,

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited to have Sal Macagliano as our guest today.

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Speaker 1: Sal is a maritime historian, educator, and former merchant mariner

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Speaker 1: who serves as chair of the Department of History, Criminal Justice,

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Speaker 1: and Political Science at Ampbell University in North Carolina, where

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Speaker 1: he's a professor special in maritime history and Security. A

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine graduate of Sunni Maritime College with a

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Speaker 1: BS in Marine Transportation and a Merchant Marine deck Officer license.

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Speaker 1: He sailed with the US Navy's Military Sealift Command, including

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Speaker 1: as third mate on USNS Comfort during the Persian Gulf War.

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Speaker 1: He earned a masters in maritime history and notical Archaeology

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Speaker 1: from East Carolina University and a PhD in Military and

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Speaker 1: Naval history from the University of Alabama. He's also an

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Speaker 1: adjunct professor at the US Merchant Marine Academy. He's widely

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Speaker 1: recognized for his expertise. He hosts the popular YouTube channel

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Speaker 1: What's going On with Shipping and that has over five

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy thousand subscribers. Sal welcome to Talking Transports.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining.

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Speaker 2: Us, Lee, I appreciate you having me on. It's always

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Speaker 2: a pleasure to be with Bloomberg.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: I stumbled upon your channel a couple of months ago,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's great resource to learn more about

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Speaker 1: the shipping industry and not just you know, commercial shipping.

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Speaker 1: You cover all things that's on the water, and I

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Speaker 1: really wanted to have you as a guest, So thank

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Speaker 1: you so much for.

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Speaker 3: Taking the time.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I appreciate that. It's nice to say.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, you're an educator pontificator. So could you

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Speaker 1: just talk about, you know, from your vantage point, what

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Speaker 1: is the state of the maritime industry.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, maritime industry is in obviously a lot

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Speaker 2: of flux. I mean when you look at it, and

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Speaker 2: this is one of the things I love about talking

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Speaker 2: about it is it's a little bit of everything. So

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Speaker 2: if we look at global trade, for example, we've never

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Speaker 2: seen global trade at a higher level. I mean, we're

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Speaker 2: seeing more goods moved around the world at a faster

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Speaker 2: and greater rate than ever before. I always talk about

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Speaker 2: this issue of volume and velocity, so we're moving stuff

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Speaker 2: a lot. At the same time, we have a lot

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Speaker 2: of issues associating with the maritime industry. We've got geopolitical threats,

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Speaker 2: environmental threats, we were seeing issues dealing with specifics in

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Speaker 2: national issues, for example, the United States trying to get

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Speaker 2: shipbuilding back up and running. We're seeing, you know, confrontations

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Speaker 2: on the high seas. We had the Houthis in the

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Speaker 2: in the Red Sea. We've got the United States now

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Speaker 2: down the Caribbean. We've got issues in the Black Sea,

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Speaker 2: and then the Baltic you know what was for a

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Speaker 2: long time a very kind of calm, nice, steady pace

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Speaker 2: across the Blue Ocean now is definitely becoming a much

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Speaker 2: more controversial and kind of kind of an issue that's

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Speaker 2: more ever present in the news than ever before. We're

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Speaker 2: also seeing some very high visibility accidents happen. Even though

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Speaker 2: shipping is much safer than it has been in the past,

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Speaker 2: losing a lot less ships, the accidents that are happening

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Speaker 2: tend to be much larger and bigger than ever before.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, you listened a lot of things

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Speaker 3: that are going on.

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Speaker 1: What is the most consequential consequential for the industry?

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Speaker 3: Is it the geopolitical risk?

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Speaker 1: Is it you know, the US more protectionists policies against trade.

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Speaker 3: In your view, what is it that's really a focus?

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Speaker 2: I think the big one right now is I'm kind

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Speaker 2: of split on this one, but I think geopolitical is

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Speaker 2: the biggest one right now because that is one you

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Speaker 2: can't really plan for. And in lots of times, what

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Speaker 2: we've seen is these unexpected issues happen geopolitically. You know

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Speaker 2: the appearance of the hu Thi for example, and all

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Speaker 2: the hoothy have been around for a long time and

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Speaker 2: they had attack ships in the past. No one expected

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Speaker 2: the scope and scale of what we saw happen in

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Speaker 2: the diversion that that has caused, and I think too,

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Speaker 2: you know, the other one is really the reappearance or

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Speaker 2: the reawakening in the United States of the importance of

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Speaker 2: commercial shipping and what that means with a renewed shipbuilding

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Speaker 2: emphasis in the United States and an emphasis on trying

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Speaker 2: to once again maybe provide some regulation oversight of US

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Speaker 2: trade into it. President Trump was just named, you know,

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Speaker 2: one of the most important influencers in shipping today, and

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Speaker 2: I don't think that was a positive issue. I think

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Speaker 2: it's because of the impact he has with their everything's

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Speaker 2: from tariffs to you know, directing programs against China's and

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Speaker 2: China and their massive expanse of shipbuilding and ship control.

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Speaker 1: Right, and so let's talk a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: Red Sea and the Sewis Canal kind of from your

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Speaker 1: you know, your opinion, that's really that's what we're asking here.

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Speaker 1: When do you think the Sewis Canal is going to

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Speaker 1: be freely open for all ships to traverse?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, we've seen it kind of

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Speaker 2: stop and start here. You know, obviously we had the

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Speaker 2: hoothy start back in October of twenty twenty three. Then

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Speaker 2: you know, in kind of spring of twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 2: it looked like things were going to reopen back up,

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Speaker 2: but then in the summertime we saw two very kind

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Speaker 2: of nasty attacks by the Houthie against ships the Eternity

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Speaker 2: Sea and another vessel excapes me all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: but very very kind of big attacks which result in

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Speaker 2: the death of some merchant mariners. I think shipping is

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Speaker 2: poised to come back into the Red Sea as soon

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Speaker 2: as those war risk insurance levels go down and it

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Speaker 2: becomes cost effective. We'll see it happen. But understand, return

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Speaker 2: to the Red Sea is going to be a very

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Speaker 2: disruptive element because it's going to involve several months of

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Speaker 2: resetting global shipping. If all of a sudden we stop

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Speaker 2: the diversions around Africa and we start funneling ships through

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Speaker 2: the Suez, we're going to see congestion hit the ports

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Speaker 2: in Europe and Asia. At the same time, I think

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Speaker 2: shipping is very much concerned about this. Again, what we're

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Speaker 2: talking about is the higher end ships, the bigger value vessels,

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Speaker 2: the container ships, car carriers, those who are the most

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Speaker 2: expensive to ensure going through But I think what we'll

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Speaker 2: see is very much what we saw on the flip side.

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Speaker 2: When we see one carrier pulled out, we saw them

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Speaker 2: all pull out. I think when we see one carrier

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Speaker 2: make the decision to go back in and resume normal,

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Speaker 2: the others will follow suit. Right now, CMACGM is doing

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Speaker 2: it on a small basis. They've been doing it a

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Speaker 2: small basis throughout this period of time. But I think

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Speaker 2: when you see the likes of Mariskan Hophog, all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden trigger, we're back, everyone's going to come running

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Speaker 2: back in. And so we can get ready for a

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Speaker 2: while three months while everything kind of settles back in again,

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Speaker 2: assuming there's not another disruption.

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Speaker 1: And do you think that the global response to Huthis

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Speaker 1: has been appropriate or do you think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: countries should have done more to dissuade them to attack

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Speaker 1: commercial ships.

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Speaker 2: I think the global response to the Huthis was exactly

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Speaker 2: what I thought it was going to be because most

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Speaker 2: countries don't, especially the United States, don't understand commercial shipping.

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Speaker 2: They really don't. Their opinion was we're going to go

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Speaker 2: in with a large military force, We're going to provide coverage,

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Speaker 2: and therefore commercial shipping will sail, you know, behind our

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Speaker 2: shield of naval vessels. They don't understand that risk associated

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Speaker 2: with commercial ships isn't isn't the same as risk associated

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Speaker 2: with navy ships. And commercial ships had an alternative route.

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Speaker 2: They had an alternative route that in ways was cheaper

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Speaker 2: for them to go because of the war risk insurance,

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Speaker 2: and they took it. And I don't think the US

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Speaker 2: ever understood quite correctly that just providing that you know,

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Speaker 2: shield of navy vessels would bring the shipping back in.

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Speaker 2: They had to do more. And I think this is

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Speaker 2: a big failure because one of the things that I

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Speaker 2: think failed with the Hoothi's was the ability to bring

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Speaker 2: not just military force against them and leverage, but also

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Speaker 2: political and economic which would have been using other mechanisms

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Speaker 2: against them, you know, leverage against Iran, leverage against the Houthi's,

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Speaker 2: ability to get weapons into that area. I think it

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Speaker 2: was a It was a tactical success for the US Navy.

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Speaker 2: They'll talk the idea that their missile defense was great. However,

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Speaker 2: it was a strategic and operational failure for them, and

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Speaker 2: I don't think they've quite appreciated that level.

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Speaker 3: Yet.

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Speaker 2: Again, they don't quite understand the commercial dimension as much

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Speaker 2: as they understand the military dimension, and they came at

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Speaker 2: it like very many military problems. Here's a nail, we'll

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Speaker 2: use a hammer to it, when in truth they needed

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Speaker 2: to use other mechanisms and tools.

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Speaker 3: And you know, let's put you on the spot.

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Speaker 1: But if you could like give your thoughts on when

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Speaker 1: do you think these higher value ships, you know, the

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Speaker 1: large container vessels and the rod rows. You know, when

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Speaker 1: do you think they go back to use this Suez

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Speaker 1: or you talk, do you think it's first quarter, second quarter,

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Speaker 1: third quarter, fourth quarter, twenty twenty seven, Like when do

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Speaker 1: you think that they're because I know, you know you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that insurance rates have to go down for them

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Speaker 1: to use it, But when do you think that's going

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Speaker 1: to happen?

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Speaker 2: Everything is really predicated on the situation in Gaza, I mean,

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Speaker 2: because that is the Houthis argument is the Hooties are

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Speaker 2: in line with that. So if ceasefire holds a place,

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Speaker 2: if we see a successful resolution of that, then what

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Speaker 2: I envision what we start seeing is ships coming from

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Speaker 2: Europe to Asia through the canal. We still may see

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Speaker 2: the Asia to Europe route using the southern route, because

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Speaker 2: that's the higher value vessels. Those are the ones that

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Speaker 2: will have the largest cargo on them, there'll be the

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Speaker 2: higher insurance value. I think what we can expect to

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Speaker 2: see is start seeing some of the smaller vessels start

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Speaker 2: coming through more frequent, starting in the beginning of twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty six. And as those vessels start coming through, and

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Speaker 2: if you look at the trend line right now, we're

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Speaker 2: seeing an uptick. We're seeing the number of ships coming

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Speaker 2: through increasing and as a gradual steady I don't think

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Speaker 2: what you will see lee is the big kind of

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Speaker 2: you know, spike up that we saw on the flip

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Speaker 2: side with the spike down. I think it's going to

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Speaker 2: be a gradual kind of improvement and as that situation stabilize,

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Speaker 2: we'll start seeing the ships go through. Obviously, what nobody

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Speaker 2: wants and the shipping companies don't want to see as

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Speaker 2: a twenty four thousand TU ship go through there and

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Speaker 2: get hit because that is a billion dollar investment right there,

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Speaker 2: and the insurance payout for that is massive. This is

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Speaker 2: that risk that the shipping company see. It's not just

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Speaker 2: the loss of a potential ship, but it's the future

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Speaker 2: voyages of that ship that they would be out and

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Speaker 2: that's the big issue. Plus we're starting ready to see

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Speaker 2: a scrapping start to take place with vessels. Again, one

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Speaker 2: of the things that going through the Suez will do

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Speaker 2: is free up a lot of tonnage that's now excess,

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Speaker 2: and so as that becomes available, we'll start seeing that go.

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Speaker 2: But what I envision is a phase and probably around

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Speaker 2: first quarter, second quarter, we start seeing the smaller sized

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Speaker 2: vessels anywhere from six thousand to twelve thousand tu probably

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Speaker 2: start coming through on a regular basis, and once they

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Speaker 2: get a track record of that, we'll start seeing the

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Speaker 2: larger vessels, the ultra larger container ships and bigger ships

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Speaker 2: start coming through that way.

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Speaker 1: Another geopolitical issue. I guess we're not issue as topic

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Speaker 1: within shipping. It's the shadow fleet as it really it's

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Speaker 1: to tankers. Yeah, you know there's a bunch of countries

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Speaker 1: that the US and other countries have sanctions on, whether

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Speaker 1: it's Trussian oil or Venezuelan and oil or Anian oil.

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Speaker 1: Kind of what are you seeing there with the shadow fleet?

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Speaker 1: When do you think do you think what happens to

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Speaker 1: the shadow fleet when these shank saying if these sanctions

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Speaker 1: can get lifted, especially on Russia because that's like the

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Speaker 1: first place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the shadow fleet, for me, is one

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Speaker 2: of the biggest dangers out there right now for ship

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Speaker 2: because I tend to use a phrase called the parallel fleet,

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Speaker 2: because these ships are operating outside the bounds of normal shipping.

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Speaker 2: They're not going to the typical registries, they're not using

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Speaker 2: the twelve big P and I Protection Indemnity Club insurances,

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Speaker 2: and they're not being classified or the regular classification agency.

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Speaker 2: So they're operating in this really kind of parallel to

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Speaker 2: the commercial fleet that's out there, and that raises danger.

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Speaker 2: If you look at the ship that the US just sees,

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Speaker 2: the motor tanker Skipper, you know, here's a ship with

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Speaker 2: no registry, no insurance that we know of, not classified,

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Speaker 2: and you know, you're running around with a one point

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Speaker 2: eight million barrels of fuel on a ship that has

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Speaker 2: no protection whatsoever. We know last time the ship was

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Speaker 2: inspected was twenty nineteen, and so the shadow fleet really

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Speaker 2: raises a lot of threats on the world oceans. I mean,

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Speaker 2: if something happens to a ship like this, who pays

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Speaker 2: for the cleanup? Who protects the crew? We saw this

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Speaker 2: in the collision just earlier this year when Frontline had

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Speaker 2: a collision with a vessel coming out of the Straits

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Speaker 2: of Horror Moves. You know, it was a shadow fleet vessel.

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Speaker 2: There was no one there to provide the insurance protection.

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Speaker 2: We're seeing it right now in the Black Sea with

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Speaker 2: the attacks on the former Gambian flag vessels. So the

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Speaker 2: shadow fleet is a dangerous thing. Now they're using it,

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Speaker 2: you know, Russia and Venezuela Iran use it to circumvent

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Speaker 2: sanctions against them. What I get concerned about is even

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Speaker 2: if sanctions are lifted, we still may see the resurrection

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Speaker 2: of this shadow fleet exist operating outside the bounds because

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Speaker 2: they're not coming into ports. They're doing ship to ship

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Speaker 2: transfers at sea, so that keeps them out of port

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Speaker 2: state control. They don't have to be inspected, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it provides a really cheap operation for vessels. This is

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Speaker 2: the danger. We create this second fleet out there that

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Speaker 2: really does not have any oversight by international authorities or

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Speaker 2: national authorities. And I think that's a big concern.

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Speaker 1: And they tend to be really like kind of you

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Speaker 1: alluded to. They tend to be really old chips, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I average what we see is ships over fifteen years

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Speaker 2: of age. If they are registered, they're in you know,

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Speaker 2: what I would call true flags of convenience. Basically, you're

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Speaker 2: paying money for a flag and there's no oversight by

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Speaker 2: the company. They may not have insurance at all on them,

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Speaker 2: and you know, there's no classification society that's doing that,

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Speaker 2: you know, third party check to ensure the vessels are

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Speaker 2: meeting their standards. And this is a danger to the

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Speaker 2: crews that are working on these ships, and more importantly,

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Speaker 2: they're dangerous to the world's oceans and everyone who adjoins them.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is a major concern. It's something

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Speaker 2: I think the International Maritime Organization has got to get

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Speaker 2: stronger about. You know, back in the day when we

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Speaker 2: had flags of conveniences, you know, we fix those. We

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Speaker 2: set up international regulations, We set up port state control

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Speaker 2: so that when ships come in no matter regardless of

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Speaker 2: what country you are, you can be inspected. These ships

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Speaker 2: now are operating outside those bounds, and this creates a

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Speaker 2: very dangerous proposition for the movement of goods around the

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Speaker 2: planet and the danger to the environment.

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Speaker 1: Who polices that is that just the individual sovereign militaries

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Speaker 1: that they're responsible for policing the shadow fleet if they

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Speaker 1: come across well.

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Speaker 2: I mean the way you police vessels in general is

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Speaker 2: when they come into your ports, you do that port

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Speaker 2: state control. So I mean that the concept was you

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Speaker 2: were bringing the ships into port and they were being inspected.

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Speaker 2: Didn't matter what flag you were, you were being you know,

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Speaker 2: if you come to the United States, you're getting port

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Speaker 2: state control. So about one out of very eight nine

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Speaker 2: ships come in you know, gets bordered by the coast

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Speaker 2: Guard and they get an inspection. The problem with with

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Speaker 2: what we're seeing right now is these shadow fleets don't

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Speaker 2: come in the countries where they get inspected, or they

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Speaker 2: don't even come into countries at all, and you know

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Speaker 2: they're operating out international war. Is the argument with grabbing Skipper.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasons that there's a lot of discussion

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Speaker 2: about is what is the authority to grab that ship.

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Speaker 2: A stateless ship operating on the ocean, you know, should

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Speaker 2: not be allowed to operate. And we've seen this. We've

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Speaker 2: seen this highlighted the in the Baltic with the ships

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Speaker 2: that are sailing to and from Russia with the Baltic States, Finland, Sweden, Germany,

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Speaker 2: Norway or all Denmark are all talking about. This is

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Speaker 2: these ships don't have registry. There's a big push on Turkey,

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Speaker 2: for example, to ensure that ship sailing up into the

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Speaker 2: Black Sea have registry and insurance. Like these three vessels

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Speaker 2: that got attacked by Ukraine, they were flying Gambian flags,

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Speaker 2: but Gambia had purged them from their registry, so the

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Speaker 2: ships were not and now we see the issue with

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Speaker 2: one of them stranded off the coast of Bulgaria right now.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned the IMO earlier.

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Speaker 1: The IMO has some free I would call ambitious emission

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Speaker 1: goals by I think twenty fifty.

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Speaker 3: They want to get to the zero.

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Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that, Like, is that something

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Speaker 1: that is achievable and if it is achievable, how is

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Speaker 1: the industry going to reach those goals?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the IMO, you know, the net zero framework is really,

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Speaker 2: I would argue, laudable. I mean, it's really something they're

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Speaker 2: trying to do. They're trying to reduce the carbon footprint

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Speaker 2: of shipping around the world. Now, on the flip side

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Speaker 2: of that, I will say that, you know, per Ton,

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Speaker 2: the shipping industry is the cleanest method to move cargo

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Speaker 2: around the world. And what's interesting about how the IMO

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Speaker 2: is doing is they're putting this onus, on the shipowners

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Speaker 2: and the shipyards to create these new methods. And what

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Speaker 2: you have right now is a very kind of innovative

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Speaker 2: period where they're trying a little bit of everything to

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Speaker 2: achieve these goals. And so what we're seeing is hydrogen,

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Speaker 2: we're seeing ammonia, we're seeing looquified natural gas, you name it.

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Speaker 2: Everything that's possible is being tried. The problem is, I

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Speaker 2: don't think many people will understand a couple of key issues.

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Speaker 2: Regardless number one, costs. I mean, all that cost to

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Speaker 2: build ships is being transferred over to the freight rates,

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Speaker 2: and this is one of the reasons why we're seeing

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Speaker 2: escalations in that second, the goals being set by IMO

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Speaker 2: our need to be I would argue that they're very fast.

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Speaker 2: And while it doesn't sound very fast, do you talk

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Speaker 2: talking about twenty thirty, twenty forty, twenty fifty and that

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Speaker 2: sounds like a long time service life of a ship

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Speaker 2: is ten to twenty years, it's twenty twenty five. If

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Speaker 2: I want to invest in a new ship today, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to get that ship in one to two years,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to get fifteen to twenty years out

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Speaker 2: of that ship. If the rules are by twenty forty,

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Speaker 2: I have to reach a certain level of carbon emission.

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Speaker 2: Do I want to pay for that ship right now?

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Speaker 2: Because I'm not sure that ship is going to be

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Speaker 2: viable after twenty forty, and so it shifts a huge

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Speaker 2: amount of onus onto the ship ship owners. I think

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Speaker 2: we need to have a more rationalistic look at this

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Speaker 2: where we're phasing in the technologies and we're ramping down

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Speaker 2: our carbon emissions. Because right now the net winners of

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Speaker 2: this are going to be the ship repair and shipbuilding nations,

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Speaker 2: which is Japan, China and Korea. They see this as

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Speaker 2: a great boon because this is going to ensure vessel

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Speaker 2: replacement over the years. I think IMO has got a

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Speaker 2: lot of things on their plate. The US opposition to

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Speaker 2: net zero framework was you know, I was one who

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Speaker 2: sat there and said that Monday of that event that

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Speaker 2: happened when the vote, I said, on Monday, this is

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Speaker 2: going to pass. And yet by Thursday it got tabled

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Speaker 2: for a year because the US was able to leverage

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Speaker 2: a lot of political clout to get that change. So

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Speaker 2: I think IMO has got to look at how they're

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Speaker 2: initiating this and maybe ramp it down or phase down

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Speaker 2: the transition. I think we still need to keep going

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Speaker 2: that way, but I'm not sure if they can get

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Speaker 2: the full amount in the timeframe they're talking about now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And also on emissions, there's like it seems like

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Speaker 1: there's a patchwork of regulations and by country and by regions,

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Speaker 1: it seems also you need some sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: a global regulations like the IMO is doing for emissions

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Speaker 1: because you know, like I think Europe has one, you know,

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Speaker 1: the United States has a different one. So that patchwork

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Speaker 1: makes it for pretty confusing for people that are involved

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Speaker 1: in chipping.

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Speaker 2: It is, I mean. And one of the reasons like,

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Speaker 2: for example, you may want to see ships still sailing

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Speaker 2: around Africa for example, is because the Mediterranean is an

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Speaker 2: environmental control area. Now, so when you go into the

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Speaker 2: Mediterranean you have to burn a certain you know fuel,

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Speaker 2: going around Africa you don't, So you know, what is

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Speaker 2: the cost benefit analysis of that. The other factor that

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Speaker 2: doesn't get talked about anywhere near enough, in my opinion,

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Speaker 2: is the education and the training for the ship's crews

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Speaker 2: for these new fuels. Ammonia is the fuel that I

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Speaker 2: have the most concern about because ammonia is the greatest

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Speaker 2: carbon you know, reducer because it doesn't use carbon at all.

401
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Speaker 2: You burn ammonia and there's no carbon emission whatsoever. However,

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Speaker 2: ammonia on a ship is one of the most dangerous

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Speaker 2: substance I could think about having sailed ships and having

404
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Speaker 2: dealt with with with these issues. An ammonia leak on

405
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Speaker 2: the ship is almost impossible to deal with. We see

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Speaker 2: those on ships carrying containers with refrigeration things like that,

407
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Speaker 2: but a engine plant using ammonia is extremely dangerous. How

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Speaker 2: are we training these crews? What are we doing for

409
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Speaker 2: safety features on board these ships? Because again, you know,

410
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Speaker 2: it's great to have the net zero I'm all for that,

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Speaker 2: but we need to ensure that we have the trained

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Speaker 2: personnel and the safety in place to help them. We're

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Speaker 2: seeing a lot of ship fire in you know, with

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Speaker 2: lithium ion batteries on board ships right now. What happens

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Speaker 2: when we start getting these variable new technologies of fuel

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Speaker 2: on board They can create a lot of problems and

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Speaker 2: you know, do we have the infrastructure in place to

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Speaker 2: deal with them? In ports for example?

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Speaker 1: And dumb question, why is the ammonia more dangerous than

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Speaker 1: the other fuels.

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Speaker 2: Well, ammonia is corrosive. It it actually starts corrupting the pipes.

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Speaker 2: And so when you have a leak from ammonia, I

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Speaker 2: mean even you know, if you don you know, protective gear,

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Speaker 2: it starts to break it down and it creates an

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Speaker 2: explosive atmosphere. And you know, all fuels have this problem.

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Speaker 2: Diesel fuel has a problem. Everyone has it. But again

427
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Speaker 2: it's a new challenge. Not only that you have to

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Speaker 2: set up the bunkering facilities. One of the big one

429
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Speaker 2: of the big problems we saw on the net zero

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Speaker 2: framework extension out for a year is that a lot

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Speaker 2: of the proponents of these alternative fuels needed to show

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Speaker 2: the demand for those fuels so that fueling companies and

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Speaker 2: production facilities would ramp up those was bunkering capacity so

434
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,040
Speaker 2: that you know, hey, we can refuel these vessels. You

435
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:05,679
Speaker 2: can you know, run on ammonia all you want if

436
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 2: you don't have ammonia fuel to do it. That's the problem.

437
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 2: We saw that with electric cars in the United States

438
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 2: when there wasn't enough charging stations. It's gonna be the

439
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,600
Speaker 2: same thing with ships, especially when you send ships on diversions,

440
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 2: for example around South Africa. And now all of a sudden,

441
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 2: you need liquefied natural gas or ammonia or whatever fuel.

442
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 2: It is set up in you know, in Durban or

443
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 2: Cape Town, South Africa, where it doesn't exist right now.

444
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 1: So you mentioned shipbuilding nations earlier, China, Japan, and South Korea. Obviously,

445
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,320
Speaker 1: the Trump administration has been pretty vocal about, I guess,

446
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:42,000
Speaker 1: reviving the shipbuilding industry here in the United States. Do

447
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: you think that is something that's feasible?

448
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:47,840
Speaker 3: You know, what has to happen for that to come

449
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:48,400
Speaker 3: to fruition.

450
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 2: I think it's feasible. I mean, I think it's a

451
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 2: tough task. You know, I would have loved this start

452
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,719
Speaker 2: of a forty years ago. You know, it's it's always

453
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 2: that issue, you know, I think you know, so, first off,

454
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 2: you know, we kind of outsourced our commercial ship building

455
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 2: in the eighties. We made this conscious decision to kind of, well,

456
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 2: we'll outsource commercial shipbuilding. We'll end the subsidy program that

457
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 2: had existed since the nineteen thirties, because hey, commercial shipbuilding

458
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 2: was being done in Europe, in Korea and Japan and

459
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,640
Speaker 2: their allies, and we were good with that. We had

460
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,639
Speaker 2: no problem with that whatsoever. And in truth, most people

461
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 2: don't care, you know, how their T shirts are delivered

462
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 2: to target. It doesn't matter if it's on an American

463
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,919
Speaker 2: ship or a Korean, Japanese, or Chinese built ship. However,

464
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,840
Speaker 2: what we've seen recently is that that number is changing.

465
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 2: You know, you look at the past two years, from

466
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two to twenty twenty four, China has grown

467
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: in terms of its number. You know, they were building

468
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 2: five percent of the world ships in nineteen ninety nine.

469
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,719
Speaker 2: Last year they built fifty one percent. And you know,

470
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 2: in those two years up to twenty twenty four, they

471
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 2: increased sixteen percent. That's the same number that Japan and

472
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 2: Korea dropped. And so what we're seeing is Japan actually

473
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: mean China becoming really the shipbuilder. We forecast for twenty

474
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 2: twenty five they'll be somewhere in the range of sixty

475
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: percent of the world ships they're building. And what makes

476
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: China perceived as a threat by the United States is

477
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 2: that they're not just a shipbuilder. They do kind of

478
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: all aspects of shipping. They build the containers, they lease

479
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 2: the containers, they do the chassis, they do ship repair.

480
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: They're one of the largest groups that are out there

481
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: as merchant mariners, controlling ports, the ship cranes, repair, you

482
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: name it. They just they seem to be doing everything

483
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 2: to really kind of control all aspects of shipping. And

484
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,840
Speaker 2: so the US wants to get it started. It's a

485
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 2: very tough thing for the US to get started because

486
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 2: what we did is we turned our shipbuilding industry in

487
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: the United States into a one customer service, and that's

488
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,640
Speaker 2: the US Navy. And so all the private yards are

489
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: building for the US Navy largely, and you know, to

490
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 2: try to change the mentality because building Navy ships, not

491
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 2: just technically, but also I would argue Philoso is different

492
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: than building commercial ships. You don't build a Navy ship

493
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: and sit there and say, okay, here's the plans, start

494
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: building it, because the Navy will tinker and toy with

495
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 2: it the entire time. Commercial companies like build me twenty tankers,

496
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,919
Speaker 2: and the shipyards like, I'm going to build them, and

497
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 2: this is the way they're going to come out and

498
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 2: here you go. So they've got to change that. So

499
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: what we see right now going on in the United

500
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 2: States is these partnerships that are being developed with foreign

501
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 2: shipping companies. So the most obvious one is Hanua in Philadelphia,

502
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 2: where we're seeing Hanwah bringing in the technology that they

503
00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 2: use in the Korean shipyards and also some of that

504
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: philosophy over to it. And it's going to be an

505
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 2: uphill challenge. It's a really tough one. I've you know,

506
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: I'm very optimistic that this is the biggest reform I've

507
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: seen in ocean shipping and shipbuilding in my entire life.

508
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,920
Speaker 2: At the same time, we're not seeing anything really measurable yet.

509
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: I think the US has got to get ships reflagged

510
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,080
Speaker 2: into the US fleet. There's got to be cargo provided

511
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 2: for those ships, and they've got to start getting contracts

512
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 2: signed to start cutting steel. And unfortunately, you know, we're

513
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,919
Speaker 2: coming up into a year of the Trump administration, we

514
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: quite have not quite seen that yet. You know, the

515
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 2: Maritime Administrator hasn't been you know, confirmed. There's two gaps

516
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 2: at the Federal Maritime Commission. The leadership at the US

517
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: Merchant Marine was gutted, Merchant Marine Academy was gutted. We

518
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 2: don't have the Maritime Action Plan as required by the

519
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: Executive Order on shipbuilding. So a lot of very big

520
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: pronouncements and goals, but we haven't seen a lot of

521
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 2: developments yet, and so, like me, I think everybody's waiting

522
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: to see what happens.

523
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: And so, you know, obviously for the Jones Act chips,

524
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 1: the ships have to be made here in the US.

525
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 1: A lot of people debate about whether the Jones Act

526
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: is fine as it is, if it needs to be changed,

527
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: or it needs to be scrapped altogether. What are your

528
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: thoughts in the Jones Act?

529
00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:58,479
Speaker 2: Well, Lee, I talk about the Jones Act quite a bit,

530
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 2: and for everybody, the Jones Act is specifically in this case,

531
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: section twenty seven of the Mercharinact in nineteen twenty it

532
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 2: says that if you want to move cargo between two

533
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: US ports, you've got to be on a US owned,

534
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: US flagged, US built, US crewed ships. And what's funny

535
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: to me about the Jones Act is there's two views

536
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: in the Jones Act. There are those who are one

537
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 2: hundred percent for it and those who are hundred percent

538
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: against it. And never will the two take a step

539
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: off their mountaintop for fear that the other one will

540
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 2: pounce on them. I'm not an advocate. I number one,

541
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: I don't think the Jones Act should be repealed because

542
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: I think there's other provisions of the jones AC that

543
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 2: are really important that we don't ever talk about. But

544
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: more importantly, we need to reform it. There needs to

545
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: be a discussion about maritime reform. And I think the

546
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 2: way we build ships today in twenty twenty five is

547
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: different than the way we built ships forty years ago,

548
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 2: let alone, you know one hundred and five years ago.

549
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 2: Shipyards are assembly points. We bring parts and components in

550
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: from not just nationally but internationally. Why why would we

551
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: not want the best you know, propellers in the world,

552
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: which come from Germany, you know, to be on our ships.

553
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: You know, starting up a facility to start building propellers

554
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 2: in the United States would be a massive uptick. It

555
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 2: would be a huge cost to do that. Why not

556
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: use some of those facilities? Excuse me, but still have

557
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 2: you know, the assembly and a large number of the

558
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,640
Speaker 2: work being done here in the United States. I think

559
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 2: we need to have that issue. You know, Hanwa has

560
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: been talking about this. Let's start a production of ten tankers.

561
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: We build three of them in the Korean yard, and

562
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: then we take that same design, same capability, and start

563
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 2: it in the US yard and we build the other

564
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 2: seven here. But all ten of them would fit under

565
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 2: a kind of a Jones Act requirement, so that we

566
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 2: can start that process. You know, prime the pump is

567
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: the phrase I keep hearing all the time, and we're

568
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: seeing this. Crowley was able to bring in a LNG carrier,

569
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: liquefied natural gas carrier that was built overseas through a

570
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: loophole in the nineteen ninety six Coast Guard authorization. So

571
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: we can do this, we can, we can make some changes.

572
00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: I mean, there's no reason we shouldn't do it, especially

573
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: in key are areas. I would argue where it's going

574
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: to take time for the US to build up a

575
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 2: domestic industry liquefied natural gas tankers, perfect example, It's going

576
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: to take years to build that industry up in the

577
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: United States. In the meantime, US is the largest LNG

578
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 2: export in the world. Why can't we be bringing Alaska

579
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: l G down to California for example? Should be done.

580
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: We should be firing up shipbuilding on the Great Lakes.

581
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 2: We have Two years ago we built the first Great

582
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: Lakes freighter up on the Great Lakes, American Great Lakes

583
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 2: Freighter in forty years. Just had the fiftieth anniversary of

584
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 2: the loss of Edmund Fitzgerald. We should were replacing all

585
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: those ships up there. You know one mode of I

586
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: forget what it is of iron ore and a Great

587
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: Lakes Carrier builds thousands of cars. It's like, why are

588
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: we not updating that fleet up there? We should be

589
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: working on that. So we should have a discussion about

590
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: Jones act. I am not one who says you can't

591
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: talk about anything, But then again, I'm a tenured professor,

592
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: and I can say these things.

593
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: Speaking of tenured professor, you know, as an adjunct professor

594
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,959
Speaker 1: at the US Merchant Marine Academy, A can just give

595
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: a little background about what is that institution? And B

596
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: can you just talk about what you focus on with

597
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: your students there? And then you know, where do these

598
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: students once they graduate, what do they do for her profession?

599
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: Sure, so I'm an adjunct at the merch Marine Academy.

600
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: I teach a graduate level course in their Masters of

601
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: Marine Engineering on Maritime industry policy. And I've been doing

602
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 2: that since two thousand and eight. So there is the

603
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 2: US Federal Merchant Marine Academy at Kingspoint in New York.

604
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: I've been around since nineteen forty three. And then there

605
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: are six state maritime academies kind of scattered around the

606
00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 2: United States California, Texas, Michigan, Maine, Massachusetts, and the finest

607
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: of them all the New York Maritime I'm a graduate off.

608
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 2: And those institutions produce graduates that have licenses to operate

609
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: in the US merch Marine, either a third mate which

610
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 2: is a deck officer license, or a third assistant engineer,

611
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 2: which is an engineering license. And the Merchant Marine Academy,

612
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: I think is unique. It's a federal academy, the same

613
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: as King's excuse me, the same as West Point, the

614
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: same as Annapolis, the Army and Navy, which we just

615
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: had the game the other day. But what it does

616
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: is it creates officers for an industry. Makes it very unique.

617
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: Was created during the midst of World War Two. It's

618
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: the only academy, by the way, that has a battle

619
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 2: standard because it's it's cadets actually died during World War two,

620
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: so one hundred and forty three I think it is

621
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: died in World War two. So it's a unique institution.

622
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: I think the maritime schools provide really the bedrock for

623
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 2: our maritime industry. These are people who don't just sail ships.

624
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: They go into different aspects of the industry. They go

625
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 2: into shipbuilding, they go into the ship operations, they go

626
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 2: into the business side of this. And one of the

627
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 2: things that I think that has the potential for the

628
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: United States to come back as a big shipbuilder is technology.

629
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: If you look at the history of the United States,

630
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 2: what is allowed the United States in the past to

631
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 2: become major in the maritime field has been technology innovations,

632
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 2: whether it's the Baltimore schooner, the clipper ship, the use

633
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: of oil as a fuel in World War One, prefabrication

634
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: during World War Two, containerization, super tankers, all American innovations,

635
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: and right now we're on the precipice of that. Use

636
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: of AI in ship design and technology, use of adaptive

637
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,959
Speaker 2: technology in ship construction, and the potential of new power sources,

638
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: if we want to talk about it. One of the

639
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,959
Speaker 2: most innovative power sources we can potentially put on ships

640
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: small modular reactors, nuclear reactors. And so I think schools

641
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: like King's Point, along with the state maritime academies, should

642
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: be the kind of the breeding grounds. These should be

643
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: the places we are dumping money into because one of

644
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 2: the things we can get out of them. Are these

645
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: technological innovations that come out. It's always funny all those schools,

646
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: if you ever look at their return the studies on them,

647
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: they have the best return on investment of any of

648
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 2: the schools. Whatever you pay to go to college there,

649
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: although the King's point is free, you'll see that the

650
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: end result out of those academies is some of the

651
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 2: highest starting salaries and maintaining salaries for any college graduates.

652
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 2: I pull it down from my UNEs institution because I

653
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 2: teach it a very small private college. But besides that,

654
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: everybody else does pretty well economically great.

655
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: And then you know, could you also, you know, when

656
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: we did the intro earlier, you know I mentioned that

657
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: you're part of at one time, the Military Sealift Command.

658
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: Most people have no idea what the heck that is,

659
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: So could you educate us and tell us what that

660
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: is and has it fit into the Navy?

661
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: Sure? So, US Navy's Military Sealift Command has been around

662
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: since nineteen forty nine under a different name. But what

663
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 2: most people don't understand is that one out of five

664
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: ships in the US Navy, so about about sixty ships

665
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: out of three hundred are crewed and operated by civilian

666
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 2: merchant mariners. The Military Sealift Command is the largest employer

667
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 2: layer of merchant mariners in the United States. About five

668
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 2: thousand of them are directly hired by the merchant by

669
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: the Military Sealift Command and about a thousand are contracted.

670
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: And what they do is they fill key roles. In

671
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: case of Military Sealift Command, all the auxiliary vessels, the

672
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,959
Speaker 2: underway replenishment ships, the tankers that refuel ships at sea,

673
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 2: the ones that bring ammunition and stores to them are

674
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 2: all crewed by these civilian merchant mariners. And at the

675
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 2: same time they also operate ships for the Afloat Prepositioning

676
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,479
Speaker 2: Program that have ammunition and equipment forward deployed. In time

677
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 2: of war, we activate this reserve fleet that's stationed along

678
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 2: the coast of the United States, about fifty to sixty vessels.

679
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 2: Those are crewed by merchant mariners. And I think one

680
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 2: of the things that the US kind of forgot was

681
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: there's kind of this very symbiotic relationship between the commercial

682
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 2: industry and the military side of shipping. And unfortunately, what

683
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 2: the US tried to do after World War Two has

684
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: created its own kind of little military merchant which is

685
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,239
Speaker 2: military seal of command, but they failed to realize they

686
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: need that commercial side too that kind of back it up,

687
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: and what we've seen recently is a lot of problems

688
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: with this sector. So for example, in twenty nineteen, there

689
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: was a huge test of the reserve fleet and this fleet,

690
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: which should have had an eighty five percent readiness, only

691
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: clocked in at forty percent, which meant that the combatant

692
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: commanders overseas could not count on seal of ships bringing

693
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 2: them the equipment and supplies they needed in time of war.

694
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 2: So we addressed the readiness of the ships, and what

695
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: we're seeing is this program underway right now to replace

696
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: some of the older ships in the fleet. The average

697
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: age of ships and the reserve fleet are like forty

698
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: four years old, and so they're trying to replace them.

699
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 2: The other issue they have is the number of merchant mariners.

700
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 2: While MSc pays very well, the problem is their government

701
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: employees many of them, and their leave policy is terrible,

702
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 2: and so this has created a big problem. During COVID,

703
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: there was issues with how they were treated, and what

704
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 2: we've seen recently just last year was seventeen ships laid

705
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 2: up because of the lack of cruise This is a

706
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: substantial problem. There is a concern that there's not going

707
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 2: to be enough merchant mariners to man the ships to

708
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 2: sustaining the US Navy and the Department of Defense in

709
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 2: time of war. And that's being addressed now. It hasn't

710
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: been resolved yet, but it's being looked at.

711
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: And you know, the Trump administration, you know, we can

712
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: argue a lot of things, but not to be political

713
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: here at all. What do you think they're doing that

714
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: is that's great for the shipping industry? And what do

715
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: you think they're doing that is really hurting the shipping

716
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: industry in your opinion?

717
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 2: I think on anything, no, no, no, I think on okay,

718
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: what are they doing? The help is they bring attention

719
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 2: to it. I mean there's a lot of visibility, more

720
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 2: on shipping than ever before. I think Secretary Duffy has

721
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: put focus on shipping. You see him for example, the

722
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: US merch Marine Academy. I love the US Merchant Marine

723
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 2: academ even though I'm a graduate of one of its rivals,

724
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 2: but it has been neglected. I mean it has been

725
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 2: just criminally neglected. I'm talking about the fact that we

726
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 2: had midshipmen living there in dorms without heat and hot

727
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: water for a while. It's just decayed. And in many

728
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: ways it was a microcosm of the US merchant marine.

729
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 2: So I mean there's a tension now being drawn to that.

730
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,959
Speaker 2: I think, you know, the fact that we've had more

731
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: legislation and proposals come out than in any previous administration

732
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: is significant. I think again the executive Order, the Ships Act,

733
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 2: which is being co sponsored by Senators Kelly and Young,

734
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: you know, bipartisan support across the ways. I think that's

735
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 2: really important. I think it's great to see that. On

736
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 2: the negative side, here you have the Trump administration arguing

737
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 2: that we want to see the expansion of US shipping.

738
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: Yet one of the very first things they did was

739
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: killed the wind industry, which is going to be a

740
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 2: major factor for US shipbuilding because the wind industry needed

741
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,280
Speaker 2: support vessels off the coast, and the US was timed

742
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 2: to build many of these ships, which are very large ships. Actually,

743
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: you know, people tend to think these are small ships.

744
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 2: They're not. They're very large ships. And that industry was

745
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 2: going to be a big kind of boom to kind

746
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 2: of really jumpstart the shipbuilding and the maritime industry. And

747
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: now you literally have ships lied up along the coast

748
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, what is going to be

749
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 2: that is not happening. Same time, we had people like

750
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 2: Rudel Saude, the head of CMA CGM, come to the

751
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: United States offered a reflag twenty ships into the US registry.

752
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: He did, he reflagged the CMA CGM Phoenix, but that's

753
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: been it. We haven't seen the other ships come in

754
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: and so, you know, the big issue is follow up.

755
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 2: My biggest criticism right now is leadership. Who is in

756
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: charge of directing this we don't have Ahead of the

757
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 2: Maritime administration, we don't have We're missing two of the

758
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 2: five commissioners on the Federal Maritime Commission. There's no Deputy

759
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 2: Secretary in the Navy for shipbuilding right now who is

760
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 2: eating this. You know, under the Maritime Action Plan and

761
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 2: the ships Actor's supposed to be a maritime you know,

762
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 2: shipping advisor created that has not been done. So I

763
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 2: think one of the biggest problems right now is leadership.

764
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: A lot of talk, but but again action is what

765
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 2: you need to see. And we're already coming into the

766
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 2: you know, second year of a Trump administration that by

767
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: all accounts will be a lame duck within another year.

768
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: So when you just to you know, we're kind of

769
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 1: coming up at the end of our time here.

770
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 3: You know.

771
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: I'm always curious to hear how people, you know, first

772
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,240
Speaker 1: get into an industry. What made you decide to focus

773
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: on the maritime industry when you were thinking about college.

774
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: I initially wanted to go in the navy. That was

775
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 2: my big goal was it was to go into the Navy.

776
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: But uh, I got into the US Naval Academy, but

777
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:52,320
Speaker 2: then they told me my eyesight at the time I

778
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 2: had glasses, I couldn't sail ships like I would be restricted,

779
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 2: and so I wanted to go to see I grew

780
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 2: up in the South a Long Island. My dad had

781
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 2: a fishing boat. We used to go off shore and

782
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 2: I used to see the ships coming in out of

783
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 2: New York and I was like, man, I just want

784
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 2: to go on those and I don't know where they're going,

785
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: but that's what I want to do, and that's that's fortunite.

786
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: Had a friend who was going to State University of

787
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: New York Maritime College, and I got in there and

788
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: it's been really great. I mean, I got to sail

789
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 2: for years. I got to work ashore. I met my

790
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 2: wife while on a ship, so and then when I

791
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 2: came ashore. You know, I was always interested in history,

792
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: and what was really interested about was the history of

793
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 2: my industry, and there really wasn't a lot written about it,

794
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 2: and I was like, man, this is you know, And

795
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: so that has been kind of my research project. I

796
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 2: did my doctoral dissertation on the kind of the intersection

797
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 2: between commercial shipping and national defense. And then in twenty

798
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: twenty one I started the YouTube channel Whenever Given decided

799
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:50,880
Speaker 2: to take a right turn in the in the Suez

800
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 2: Canal and for six days pinched fifteen percent of global trade.

801
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you mentioned there aren't a lot of

802
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: books out there, but you know, since you've got into

803
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: the industry, I guess some have been written. Do you

804
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 1: have a favorite book about either the shipping industry military?

805
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 1: Just giving your background or leadership.

806
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 2: I'll give you two books right with the bad the history.

807
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 2: One I love is a book written by a good

808
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: friend of mine, Lincoln Pain, called Sea and Civilization, which

809
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 2: is a maritime history of the world. He jokes that

810
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: the history of the world is maritime, so it's kind

811
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 2: of redundant to put maritime in front of it. But

812
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: it is a great it's a world history through the

813
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 2: maritime prism. I just used that book in my world

814
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 2: maritime history course. And the other book I always love

815
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 2: is Mark Levinson's The Box. I think, to me that's

816
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 2: one of the best books out there because I live

817
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 2: in North Carolina, about fifty miles from where Malcolm McClain

818
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 2: was born in Maxton, North Carolina. And you know, the

819
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: greatest innovator in global shipping was a truck driver. And

820
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 2: I think that, to me is probably the best image

821
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: of that because sometimes we get so focused on the

822
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: ships and you know what they're involved, but in truth,

823
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 2: all the ships do is connect us from shore to shore.

824
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 2: That's all we use ships for, is to connect us

825
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: from one point to another. And it took a truck

826
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 2: driver to sit there and say there's got to be

827
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,959
Speaker 2: a better way to move cargo than the way we're

828
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: doing it piece by piece, and then some of it

829
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 2: kind of he didn't come up with an idea where

830
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty six the Ideal X. I always argue,

831
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 2: he's the Elon Musk of his day. You know, Elon's

832
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 2: got SpaceX. He had Ideal X and Ideal X sales

833
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 2: out of Newark with fifty eight containers on board, and

834
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 2: today we're running ships with twenty four twenty five thousand

835
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,839
Speaker 2: containers on board. I don't think McClain. Maybe he did,

836
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: but I don't think he quite realized what he was

837
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 2: unleashing when he did that. You know, over was now

838
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: sixty years ago, seven years ago, almost right.

839
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: And then I'm just curious if you, you know, because

840
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: you spent a lot of your career on the on

841
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: the water, on the seas, what is your favorite thing

842
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: about being on a ship for a long time and

843
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 1: what is your least favorite thing?

844
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 2: So my every thing on a ship was always the

845
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 2: idea that man, you could just sit there and read.

846
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 2: It was always great for me because it was one

847
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: of the things I every time I go on a

848
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 2: ship back in the time when I was saying, we

849
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,440
Speaker 2: didn't quite have the kindles and everything, so bring some

850
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 2: books and it was always great and for me, it

851
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: gave me the time to do it. And I love

852
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 2: going to places. I love visiting and seeing places. And

853
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 2: I was fortunate at the time that when we would

854
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 2: pull in, you could stay there for a little bit

855
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 2: of time and actually see things. A lot of mariners

856
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 2: don't get that opportunity anymore. A lot of a lot

857
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 2: of stea fares these days are you pull in the

858
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: port and you know, ships make money salling, they don't

859
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: make money in port, and so they're always kind of

860
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 2: really on on on the dogs coming in.

861
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 3: You know.

862
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 2: The downward side was really the life on board because

863
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 2: you're really you're really secluded, You're really cut off. I

864
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,479
Speaker 2: mean you leave shore and you are really cut off.

865
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 2: Today it's getting better with things like Starlink. You know,

866
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,439
Speaker 2: mariners are more connected than ever before, which is good.

867
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,840
Speaker 2: I mean we have tracking of ships, we can see things.

868
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 2: But at the same time too, I would argue that

869
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: that one of the big drawbacks of shipping is trying

870
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: to get people educated in what happens. We have basically

871
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,959
Speaker 2: walled off shipping and one of the reasons I started

872
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 2: to my channel was to really expose people to global shipping.

873
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: Most people don't see it. You know, when you create

874
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: a you know, we move the ships from the piers

875
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: along Manhattan over to Newark, and nobody wants to go

876
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,520
Speaker 2: to Newark, so I mean nobody sees the ship, so

877
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: it's just you know, all the way over there, and

878
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 2: so it becomes very isolated. And you know, it takes

879
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 2: events like ever Given Dolly, you know, the Hoho thy

880
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 2: to remind people. It's like, hey, you know when when

881
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 2: when commerce gets cut off it impacts you. There there

882
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: are direct impacts. I remember when I transitioned the channel

883
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: from talking about ever Given to the supply chain crisis.

884
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: That for me was the moment, because all of a sudden,

885
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: this was impacting everybody, and I think making that awareness

886
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 2: and plus, as you well know, probably you know, when

887
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 2: you talk to people within an industry, they don't have

888
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 2: the ability many times to talk to people outside the industry.

889
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: They're very much have a dialogue, they have a lingo,

890
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,959
Speaker 2: They have a language that doesn't promote them from really

891
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 2: explaining things they love, acronyms they love, They assume you

892
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 2: know everything. And and myself, as an educat, I'm used

893
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: to providing very complex targets and topics and breaking them down.

894
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: So that's what I kind of try to do.

895
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: All right, Great, well, sal thank you so much for

896
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: your time and insight to really really enjoy the conversation.

897
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 3: So thanks so much.

898
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: I appreciate having me, and you know, for anyone that's listening.

899
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about the shipping industry,

900
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 1: I would heavily suggest Sal's YouTube channel What's going On

901
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 1: with Shipping So it's a wealth of knowledge and insights,

902
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: so definitely check it out. And I also want to

903
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: thank you for tuning in to Talking Transports. This will

904
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: be our final episode.

905
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 3: Of the year.

906
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: I want to thank all of you, our listeners, our guests,

907
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: and supporters for making this another great season of conversations

908
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: across the great logistics and transportation world. Wishing all of

909
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: you a safe and RESTful holiday season and a happy,

910
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: healthy start to the new year. I look forward to

911
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 1: reconnecting with you in twenty twenty six with more insights, conversations,

912
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: and industry perspective. Until then, happy holidays and thanks for

913
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 1: Talking TRANSPORTSM