WEBVTT - S3 – INTERVIEW 1: Adam Wood 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.360 Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minky. 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:10.039 We begin the interview series for Unobscured season three with 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:13.280 Adam Wood, author of Swanson, The Life and Times of 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:18.239 a Victorian Detective and longtime editor of Riparologist magazine. Adam 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.279 also leads Mango Books, where he publishes new work in 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:25.119 true crime and police history. Anyone who has researched the 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.440 Whitechapel murders in the past twenty years has benefited from 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:32.200 Adam's work in the pages of Reparologist magazine. Adam has 0:00:32.200 --> 0:00:36.360 curated and sharpened the questions, speculation, and debates around the 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.720 Whitechapel murders, as well as editing good work by others. 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.880 Adam has also written detailed studies of people like Donald 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.320 Swanson and coroner Win Baxter, who you'll know well from 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:50.919 this season of Unobscured. But Adam's contribution to understanding Victorian 0:00:50.920 --> 0:00:54.160 Whitechapel goes beyond the pages of books and magazines. He 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:57.240 has been essential to developing the community of writers and 0:00:57.280 --> 0:01:01.200 thinkers hunting the killer online and in person, and conferences 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.800 and conversations about Whitechapel have relied on Adam for guidance 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.200 and insight for years. Were delighted to have his perspective 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:12.440 on Unobscured. Researcher Carl Nellis asked Adam to describe how 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:15.400 he came to write a biography of Donald Swanson and 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:18.600 met the Swanson family along the way. That's where we'll 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:23.000 get started. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season three. 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:28.240 I'm Aaron Manky. I began researching for an article of 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.080 Replogious magazine which, as you said on the editor on 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:35.440 and it's regarding the Swanson marginalia which our pensonentations made 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.840 by Donald Swanson his retirement, which seemed to identify Jack 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.759 the Ripper. And while I was researching for that article 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:43.480 was someone asked where if I'd like to be introduced 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:46.040 to the Swanson family, and of course I jumped at 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:48.240 the chance. It turned out they didn't live too far 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.880 from me, and they kept a vast amount of papers, 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.160 notebooks and documents belonging to Donald, and most of it 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.240 was information which has never been seen before outside of 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.480 the family. I quickly realized there was a fantastic story 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:02.480 needing to be told, So when that article was finished, 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:04.160 I told the family would like to write a book, 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.240 and they couldn't have been more helpful. I made a 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.560 number of times with Donald's great grandson Nevill swansor it 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:12.760 would hand me a box of material exchange for one 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.440 which I just photographed, and eventually I sorted everything in 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.440 chronological order first and then researched each case or incident 0:02:19.520 --> 0:02:22.360 in Swanson's life to build up the complete picture before 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:26.240 writing it up. That seven years later got to the 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:28.799 point where the book was almost in good shape yea. 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:31.840 And very early on I realized as an opportunity not 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.280 just to tell swanson story, but also to relate the 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:37.639 evolution of the Met Police throughout that period, so I 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:39.960 could link it together all the appointments and regular nations 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.680 of the various police commissioners, which has a bearing on 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.480 police activity during the White Shape or murders. So the 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.519 events in the book didn't just happen in isolation. And 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.239 I realized everything has context. One incident leads to another, 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.800 and so one, and in Swanson's career and personal life, 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:58.880 I wanted to get across that context, so it gives 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:01.040 us an understanding of why certain events happened in the 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.920 way that they did. Yeah, let's explore a little bit 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:07.400 more about what he just said, that the book covers 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:11.480 far more than the Whitechapel murders, and by following Swanson's 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:15.240 life story we get to see kind of a lot 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.560 about Victorian London, but beyond London too, because of course 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:23.240 he grows up in Scotland and he has contacts outside 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.560 of London. He investigates cases that have implications and the 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:32.080 reaches of empire. Um. So maybe would you offer us 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:37.280 a few thoughts on what's valuable in your opinion about 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.680 studying the Victorian period in that kind of robust way 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:44.960 following the eyes of particular people, But really, what do 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.800 we get when we step into the Victorian world? What 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.240 does it offer us? Well? I think the mid to 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.280 light Victorian era is extremely important in terms of studying 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.480 place history, particularly because the Metropoluan Force it on even 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:01.200 formed forty years before Swanson joined in. They're still senting 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.280 officers for Cutler's training in response to the Fenian bombing campaign, 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:07.160 which is ongoing at the time, and the Detective Department 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.200 was only twenty five years old. And by contrast, when 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:14.560 Swanson retired, the men had just started using fingerprint evidence. 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.520 So the thirty five years of Swanson's career covering the 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:21.080 late Victorian period saw an enormous development and forensics and 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.520 methods of detection. We can carry that evolution through to 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:28.000 more recent times, the introduction of the photo fit, chemical 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:32.039 composition forensics and of course DNA before we really step 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:36.000 into exploring the White Chapel case and in East London 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:40.040 in detail. UM, I'd love to just for our listeners, 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.400 especially to hear a little bit more about the work 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:48.200 that you've done for reparologists and maybe Mango books as well. UM, 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:50.760 to give a little sense of what you really bring 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.920 to this study. Well, I've been on the editorial board 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.680 at Reparatist magazine since which is three years after the 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.479 magazine was founded, and I've been the exact de editor 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:03.440 since two thousand and eight. Our most recent issue is 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:05.320 number A hundred and sixty seven, So it gives you 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.400 an idea of how much work is in that in 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:11.680 that volume. And I think it's interesting looking back over 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.240 the articles over the years to see how attitudes to 0:05:14.279 --> 0:05:17.440 the Whitechapel murders case have changed. I've had fads for 0:05:17.520 --> 0:05:20.680 various suspects, the Diary of the Ripper and more recently 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:24.920 katherinett o'shaw, we're just tested for DNA. So there's been 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.760 a lot of changing attitudes over the years. It's been 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:29.520 really good for me personally as the editor of the 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:31.839 magazine because it's helped me to stay neutral in my 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.920 approach to the case. I don't really have a favorite 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:39.159 suspect as such in the Ripper investigation. But when I 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:42.680 started work on the Swanson book in twos and twelve, 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:46.599 as I said earlier, with the amount of offshoots and 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:48.640 different lines of research, I knew that was going to 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:50.280 be in there. I thought it was going to be 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:52.520 unlikely if I went to a mainstream book publisher to 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.280 get the whole story, told if I happen to chop 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.240 out at least half of the research. So I decided 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:01.920 just to self publish it. Basically, my backgrounds in graphic 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:07.960 design and printing expertise, so I decided to self publish 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.200 it and just really cover everything that I found in 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:15.520 the research. And a friend of mine, Neil Bell, who's 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:17.479 a core from the first book that had published in 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.480 Mango Books, h said, Yeah, that's a great idea. Swampson 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.520 can be completely as you want it. But I've got 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:25.320 on an idea for a book, which is the Police 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:29.440 Code nine, which was the guide for the Victorian Police 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.120 that the director the c I D. Howard Vincent, had created. 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.920 We took the versions as a really as an exercise 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.440 to to try out the printer that I identified and 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:42.760 see if they're you know, the marketing expertise. It went 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:44.680 very well, and then someone said, I didn't know you're 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.120 a publisher. I've got an idea on the craze, another 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:51.080 Eastent crime story, and it just went from there. Every 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:54.080 time I published a book, didn't intend to create Mango 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:58.200 Books at such. It was more of a personal um project. 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:00.400 I just get getting more and more sudden sitions and 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.920 I think it's gone very very well. And now there's 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.080 probably about thirty five to forty titles on the Mango 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.000 Books in print and Blue Lamp Books, which is police 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:13.400 history various topics ranging from Victorian era through to the 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:17.760 craze in the sixties, and for me personally has been 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.320 obviously quite good setting up the bit, not only the 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:22.840 business side of things, but I've learned quite a lot 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:27.000 as well with various cases um learning the publishing industry. 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.560 But I do I do always say that that that 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.360 the creation of Mango Books is probably half the reason 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:34.600 why the Swanson book took seven years rather than the 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:40.280 two and a half that I've planned in the first place. Yea, ah, well, 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:43.640 so many of us are both grateful for your work 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.440 and reparologists and from Mango Books and the kinds of 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.640 things you've produced, and in this case in particular, of course, 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:52.720 I'm really glad that you made that choice with Swanson, 0:07:52.920 --> 0:07:56.800 because it did mean it can be a little bit 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.920 of a unique project that has, as you say, so 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.480 many offshoots, so many interesting aspects that if it was 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.360 being published elsewhere, might have been kind of shaved off 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:11.520 without UM. But there's so much interesting detail, and it 0:08:11.640 --> 0:08:14.240 really gives us a sense for the texture of of 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:18.080 his life and gives us fascinating glimpses into the world 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:22.400 around him. UM. Let's step into that world. Let's go 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:28.280 to London's East End in UM and start talking about 0:08:28.320 --> 0:08:34.040 crime in London at that time. UM, there's violent crime 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:38.880 on record in the neighborhood, uh throughout the eighteen eighties. 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:44.199 But if we focus only on the White Chapel murders, 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:48.400 it might give us a slightly distorted picture of what 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:52.720 life was like there. So how violent was White Chapel 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:56.839 and surrounds in the eighties? What was the general understanding 0:08:57.200 --> 0:08:59.560 of that violence among the people who lived there, maybe 0:08:59.559 --> 0:09:02.640 the middle as readers of the press, the police, what 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:07.800 was Can we get a clearer picture of maybe violence 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.160 in White Chapel in eighties? Well, I think the thing 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.520 to remember about the East End at that time was 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.160 it that that was the area where most poverty in 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:20.559 London was really where the residents suffered, and through that 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.160 and the desperation at those poor people felt the crime 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:27.800 crime was was bred. And that was also the area 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:30.000 where the immigrants first landed when they arrived in London. 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.640 So there was simmering tensions among the whole population really, 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.679 But fifty years earlier, the rookeries where the poor and 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.360 the criminal classes congregated were to be found in the 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.600 east in the West End, rather in St Charles area 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.240 and spill Fields and White Chapel in the early teen 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:48.120 hundreds were by comparison and quite prosperous. When the West 0:09:48.200 --> 0:09:51.199 End was developed, a large number of people were forced 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:54.040 from the rookeries, and when Oxford Street and Sharp Revenue, 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.040 which are well known West End streets now were developed, 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.520 St Charles area was Demolis. All the five five thousand 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.760 poor residents were relocated to the East End. And when 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:11.760 you combine that large movement of poor, poverty stricken residents 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.679 into an area, as to say, which had been prosperous, 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:19.199 but the buildings were getting older and dilapidated. Certainly the 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.479 the the sewage facilities around the East End were getting dated. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:29.360 It just become too overcrowded um and obviously, unfortunately poverty 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:34.240 and overt and overcrowding does bread criminal element. And with 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.640 the mistrust of the growing numbers of Jewish imrigrants settling 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.280 in Whitechapel, the area was a bit of a powder 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:42.360 keg waiting to explode, and is not surprising in those 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:46.559 in that situation. The unprovoked attacks on others or domestic 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:50.160 violence was was quite commonplace and to some degree expected, 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:54.800 and of course with the press until the Ripper murders, 0:10:54.840 --> 0:10:57.600 it was almost sort of overlooked the East endia. It 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:00.360 was incredible how close it was to the city which 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:04.520 obviously at that time London, the UK had a large 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:08.800 empire run from London, and it was interesting and surprising 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:12.360 really how close to that center of that empire. East 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.120 End was, but it was almost forgotten about and pushed 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.520 to one side. So the problems that the East Ends 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.640 were having with violence and all the poverty, we were 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.360 ignored by the press until the Ripper came along. So 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:25.439 in a way it sort of acted as a little 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:29.160 bit of a sort of social cleanser. But violence less 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:34.040 so much murder, but more petty violence and domestic violence 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:36.720 was quite prevalent in the East End that time, m HM. 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:42.120 And Donald Swanson as a member of the police is 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.040 in that environment, not always in the East End, often 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.760 serving elsewhere in London. But is there something we could 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:52.280 say to kind of sum up a commonality to the 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.439 majority of crimes investigated by Donald Swanson during that time 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:59.120 If it wasn't murder after murder after murder, um, what 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.600 kinds of crimes was he investigating and how often was 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:06.000 he in the East End versus elsewhere in London? Well, 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.880 the street violence was usually dealt with by the uniform 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.760 policeman on the beat, and those officers were who gained 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.480 promotion such as spons would be transferred to a different 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:18.079 division within the mat So not always once you became 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:21.880 a sergeant inspector or joined the detectives, you'd move out 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.120 of one division move into another, and so it was 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:27.200 his sponsor. And he served the first two years of 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:29.760 his career as a police comsortable in a division which 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:32.200 is in Westminster where the government and other official buildings 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.880 were situated. So it's unlikely that in those early years 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.760 he saw much in the way of street violence while 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.480 on his beat. He was transferred to Y Division in Highgate, 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:46.280 which is North London, and the following year promoted to sergeant, 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:49.280 transferred to Bowen in East London in eighteen seventy one, 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:52.000 and then from there to Plast those stations also in 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.559 the East End, and finally he's moved to Scotland Jared 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.120 in eighteen seventy six. So he served as hople of 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:01.000 five years in the East End during the early eighteen seventies, 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.640 and he probably knew the area well, but because he 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.080 served his early days on the beach, where he would 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:10.679 have seen that sort of violence were really served elsewhere. 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:12.880 Although he had been aware that the Eastern was a 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:17.559 very violent area, he wouldn't have seen much personally. In Swanson. 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:20.840 You tell an interesting story of a case and and 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.120 the coverage in the book is brief, and I've gone 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.160 back and looked at the newspapers and and the coverage 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:28.160 of the papers is brief, but this is seventeen years 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:32.040 before the Whitechappel murders. In one. Uh, some of our 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.040 main figures that we think about when we think about 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.760 the Whitechappel murders, especially Frederick Aberline, and now with your 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:43.480 book so healthfully lifting Swanson to the same deserved level 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:47.400 of attention. Uh. Those two men together infiltrated in the 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:51.760 illegal playhouse. Can you describe that operation? Well, that's the 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.599 only case I was able to find were Swanson and 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.079 Outline work together. But there must have been more, as 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.040 though we both stationed at Kentish Town Police station for 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.160 the fifteen months that's wantson was on Wy Division, so 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.360 that they must have they must have worked more closely. 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:07.120 But this one, as you said, found out for yourself, Carlie, 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:09.520 is the only one in the newspapers, and it's only 0:14:09.600 --> 0:14:13.760 briefly reported on. But it occurred in July one. Swanson 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.920 was a PC and Aberline a sarjump and complaints have 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:19.160 been made to the police that the infamous fear to 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:23.720 Presario in Presario, George Sanger was putting on plays without 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.000 a license, and to get around this he placed advertisements 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:30.000 stating that entry was free. But when nearly four dred 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:31.680 people turned up on the night, they were told they 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:35.000 had to buy a program before they had gained admittances. 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.600 Ab Line went along in playing clothes and watched the 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.560 performance and observed what the new newspapers described. Got it 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:44.760 written here as several drunks, men of a doubtful character 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:47.960 and women have an immral character causing nuisance to the 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.400 billet to the public in justslymation. What an evening that 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:55.200 that was like. Sanger eventually appeared before the magistrates and 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.640 was fined just five pound. And I know a little 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:01.120 bit about saying that he he did go on to continue 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:05.840 with these with these um illegal playhouse career, should we say, 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.600 And he was quite quite notorious. Swanson was transferred to 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.160 Bow in the East End three months later, on Atline 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.360 to Whitechapel two years later. And as you said, they 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:19.680 worked on the near ripro investigation to get and there's 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:21.600 no doubt at that time they would have remembered each 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.160 other and in facting Swanson's personal address book, which I'm 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.080 very lucky to own, he's got Abelene's address in that 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.560 address book, Um, where where he retired to? So the 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:37.200 detectives obviously remained friendly throughout all those years. M hm. 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:41.640 So let's spend a little more time focused on Donald Swanson. 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.880 Who he was. Um, he's a Scott from ter So 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:48.320 you give a compelling portrait of his early life and 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:50.560 his entry into the London Police. And I've heard you 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.440 say in other parks that when you're reading biographies you're 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:58.680 often frustrated when all the early life gets skipped over 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.240 in the first page. And that's just onto something that 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.320 happens when the subject is in their fifties or something 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.600 like that. So let's talk a little bit about some 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:11.880 of that early formation of who Swanson was. Um, can 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.760 you give us a picture of his of his family 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.600 and where he grew up? Well, Swanson, I think perhaps 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.680 uniquely among policemen of that time. You know a lot 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:25.600 of a lot of comfortables joined the police, were from 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:29.680 out of London, laborers or farm workers and came looking 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:32.160 for regular work, which which the police obviously was at 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:37.160 that time. Um. But Swanson grew was born to a 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:40.600 brewing family. His father, John Swanson, moved around Cafe Nest, 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.760 which is in the far north of Scotland, even beyond 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.360 the Highlands. If you tell anyone from Thurso where he 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:48.400 grew up, that we grew up in the Highlands, they 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:50.640 get quite upset because they count it as the lowlands 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:54.800 up there. But he's his family moved around from basically 0:16:54.880 --> 0:17:01.040 from distilleriy distillery, very small affairs, even brewing whiskey breen 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.080 beer rather or just still in whiskey m and I 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.199 visited the small farmhouse where where he was born and 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.760 it's just literally a small stone affair on a on 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:14.760 a bend of a river with sheep grazing around. There's 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:19.240 there's nothing around for about seven or eight miles. Unfortunately, 0:17:19.680 --> 0:17:23.439 Donald's father, John Swanson, had an accident. This is this 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:26.120 is before Donald was born, but his mother was pregnant 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.560 with him. He had an accident where he got his 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:31.000 clothing was caught in a bit of shanery in his 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.600 student his arm was dragged in. Eventually had to have 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:39.240 that removed, and with the elder sons having to left 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:43.240 home for other types of work, John Swanson couldn't continue 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.920 in that trade anymore and moved to thursoh which was 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:49.040 the nearest town about seven miles away, and that was 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:52.560 quite That was quite good for Donald because it was 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:55.080 he meant he didn't have to work in the distillery, 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.880 didn't become a laborer on the farm. He obviously had 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.280 quite a high degree of intelligence. Um he was. He 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.719 went to the local school in thursoh which at that 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:06.600 time it wasn't compulsory to send your children to school 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:11.080 and it was basically had to pay for an education. 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.359 But I think that his parents must have seen something 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:16.639 in there youngest son, Donald and they paid for him 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:21.440 to go to school. He spent eleven years into schools 0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:25.440 in thirdsone and proved to be an exceptional pupil, regularly 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:32.400 winning prizes in educational and annual educational examinations, and eventually, 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.200 by Tommy was sixteen, he became a second master at 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.320 the Miller Institute, which is the school he was in 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:41.840 assisting the head teacher, and it looked as though he 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:47.159 had a career marked out in education. But I'm not 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.320 quite sure there's there's there's two possible reasons why he 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:55.560 gave up that job in the June and moved to London. Either, 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.040 as as often reported, he didn't see much of a 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.000 future in education, but again that that could have been 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.879 a secure trade for for someone like night Donald Um, 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.120 but also his two sisters and had married to firemen 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.000 in and had moved to London. I don't know how 0:19:13.000 --> 0:19:14.760 that came around. I don't know whether the two firemen 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.399 and been to Scotland and met or the girl. The 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:19.679 two sisters had gone to London met than there, but 0:19:20.160 --> 0:19:24.760 they're both married firemen and had children. Sister Mary, her 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:31.040 husband Peter, died in early only sixty seven, and again unfortunately, 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.639 she was pregnant and gave birth to Donald's niece, Petro 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:39.440 sheer Um and Donald went to London quite soon after 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:44.000 and stayed with the second sister. Now I don't know whether, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.160 as I said, Donald just gave up turned his back 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:50.280 on a educational career, or he went to London to 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.560 support the family, which I suspect may have been the case. 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.760 He got a job quite quickly in the offices of 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.440 a city clerk, just as a general clark. Nothing nothing 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:06.840 too strainuous, but again some degree of intelligence was required. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.520 But the interesting thing is that that his employer, John Michele, 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:13.480 would later write that he knew he'd known of Donald 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.600 Swanson for a number of years, and I suspect although 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.400 I haven't found any evidence that John Michaele was related 0:20:19.400 --> 0:20:23.240 in some way to Robert Michael, who was Donald's tutor 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.840 at the school back in thursoh So John Michall, he 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.760 was in his late fifties at this time. He had 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:33.840 been working in London for quite some time. He was 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:38.200 from Manchester. I think it Rothery's Scott who had made 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.840 a home in Manchester and he decided to close the 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.720 business and retire move back to Lancashire UM in the 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.240 March of eight and Donald had a choice then, you know, 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:51.920 did he move back to Third Zone, resume teaching career 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:55.000 or did he look for work in London? And he 0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:58.639 literally picked up that day's newspaper and looked in the 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.919 Situations can Colum and saw an advert from the Metropolitan 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.159 Police and just literally that day just just wrote in 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:08.960 a letter of application UM. And that was the start 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:13.120 of his career. Mhm, m hm. So let's continue stepping 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:16.520 forward in his career. Maybe talk about a couple of 0:21:16.720 --> 0:21:20.560 significant moments for policing London after the time when Donald 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:25.240 had joined UM, especially thinking of the turf fraud scandal 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:29.480 of eighteen seventy seven and the trial of the detectives, um, 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.280 what were the consequences for the reputation of the police 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:35.000 in London and and the structure of the police force 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.640 even and and what was what was someone Swanson doing 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:40.520 at the time of the turf fraud scandal on The 0:21:40.560 --> 0:21:43.000 turf fraud was a long running scam in which a 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:45.560 London game committed a fraud on a rich French widow. 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:48.879 They pretended to be honest bookmakers and promised to guaranteed 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:51.760 winnings on horse races. And it went in for some months, 0:21:51.760 --> 0:21:54.000 and the gang slowly encouraged her to send more money 0:21:54.440 --> 0:21:57.480 until he has listened to discover she sent ten thousand 0:21:57.520 --> 0:22:00.600 pound which was the equivalent of more half a million 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.400 pounds to day. You think she would have realized long 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.399 before that point the money you're sending wasn't guaranteeing the 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.720 same amount of income. But Superintendent Frederick Williamson of the 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:14.199 Detective Department sent his best men to investigate. But for 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:16.080 some reason, the gang always seemed to be one step 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:20.080 ahead and avoided arrest. They're eventually captured and sent to prison, 0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:22.680 but one of them then wrote to the government revealing 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:24.960 the reason they had been so difficult to arrest. Was 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:27.040 that the detectives had been bribed to warn them when 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:30.680 the police were getting close. Three detectives from the department 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.280 and one corrupt solicitor were put on China found guilty 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:37.439 as you say in eighteen seventy seven, and the result 0:22:37.480 --> 0:22:40.080 was that the Detective Department of Scotland Yard was completely 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:43.680