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Speaker 1: Welcomed Unobscured, a production of I Heart Radio and Aaron Minky.

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Speaker 1: We begin the interview series for Unobscured season three with

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Speaker 1: Adam Wood, author of Swanson, The Life and Times of

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Speaker 1: a Victorian Detective and longtime editor of Riparologist magazine. Adam

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Speaker 1: also leads Mango Books, where he publishes new work in

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Speaker 1: true crime and police history. Anyone who has researched the

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Speaker 1: Whitechapel murders in the past twenty years has benefited from

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Speaker 1: Adam's work in the pages of Reparologist magazine. Adam has

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Speaker 1: curated and sharpened the questions, speculation, and debates around the

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Speaker 1: Whitechapel murders, as well as editing good work by others.

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Speaker 1: Adam has also written detailed studies of people like Donald

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Speaker 1: Swanson and coroner Win Baxter, who you'll know well from

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Speaker 1: this season of Unobscured. But Adam's contribution to understanding Victorian

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Speaker 1: Whitechapel goes beyond the pages of books and magazines. He

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Speaker 1: has been essential to developing the community of writers and

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Speaker 1: thinkers hunting the killer online and in person, and conferences

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Speaker 1: and conversations about Whitechapel have relied on Adam for guidance

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Speaker 1: and insight for years. Were delighted to have his perspective

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Speaker 1: on Unobscured. Researcher Carl Nellis asked Adam to describe how

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Speaker 1: he came to write a biography of Donald Swanson and

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Speaker 1: met the Swanson family along the way. That's where we'll

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Speaker 1: get started. This is the Unobscured Interview series for season three.

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Speaker 1: I'm Aaron Manky. I began researching for an article of

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Speaker 1: Replogious magazine which, as you said on the editor on

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Speaker 1: and it's regarding the Swanson marginalia which our pensonentations made

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Speaker 1: by Donald Swanson his retirement, which seemed to identify Jack

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Speaker 1: the Ripper. And while I was researching for that article

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Speaker 1: was someone asked where if I'd like to be introduced

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Speaker 1: to the Swanson family, and of course I jumped at

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Speaker 1: the chance. It turned out they didn't live too far

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Speaker 1: from me, and they kept a vast amount of papers,

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Speaker 1: notebooks and documents belonging to Donald, and most of it

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Speaker 1: was information which has never been seen before outside of

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Speaker 1: the family. I quickly realized there was a fantastic story

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Speaker 1: needing to be told, So when that article was finished,

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Speaker 1: I told the family would like to write a book,

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Speaker 1: and they couldn't have been more helpful. I made a

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Speaker 1: number of times with Donald's great grandson Nevill swansor it

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Speaker 1: would hand me a box of material exchange for one

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Speaker 1: which I just photographed, and eventually I sorted everything in

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Speaker 1: chronological order first and then researched each case or incident

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Speaker 1: in Swanson's life to build up the complete picture before

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Speaker 1: writing it up. That seven years later got to the

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Speaker 1: point where the book was almost in good shape yea.

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Speaker 1: And very early on I realized as an opportunity not

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Speaker 1: just to tell swanson story, but also to relate the

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Speaker 1: evolution of the Met Police throughout that period, so I

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Speaker 1: could link it together all the appointments and regular nations

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Speaker 1: of the various police commissioners, which has a bearing on

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Speaker 1: police activity during the White Shape or murders. So the

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Speaker 1: events in the book didn't just happen in isolation. And

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Speaker 1: I realized everything has context. One incident leads to another,

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Speaker 1: and so one, and in Swanson's career and personal life,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to get across that context, so it gives

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Speaker 1: us an understanding of why certain events happened in the

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Speaker 1: way that they did. Yeah, let's explore a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about what he just said, that the book covers

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Speaker 1: far more than the Whitechapel murders, and by following Swanson's

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Speaker 1: life story we get to see kind of a lot

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Speaker 1: about Victorian London, but beyond London too, because of course

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Speaker 1: he grows up in Scotland and he has contacts outside

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Speaker 1: of London. He investigates cases that have implications and the

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Speaker 1: reaches of empire. Um. So maybe would you offer us

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Speaker 1: a few thoughts on what's valuable in your opinion about

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Speaker 1: studying the Victorian period in that kind of robust way

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Speaker 1: following the eyes of particular people, But really, what do

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Speaker 1: we get when we step into the Victorian world? What

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Speaker 1: does it offer us? Well? I think the mid to

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Speaker 1: light Victorian era is extremely important in terms of studying

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Speaker 1: place history, particularly because the Metropoluan Force it on even

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Speaker 1: formed forty years before Swanson joined in. They're still senting

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Speaker 1: officers for Cutler's training in response to the Fenian bombing campaign,

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Speaker 1: which is ongoing at the time, and the Detective Department

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Speaker 1: was only twenty five years old. And by contrast, when

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Speaker 1: Swanson retired, the men had just started using fingerprint evidence.

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Speaker 1: So the thirty five years of Swanson's career covering the

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Speaker 1: late Victorian period saw an enormous development and forensics and

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Speaker 1: methods of detection. We can carry that evolution through to

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Speaker 1: more recent times, the introduction of the photo fit, chemical

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Speaker 1: composition forensics and of course DNA before we really step

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Speaker 1: into exploring the White Chapel case and in East London

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Speaker 1: in detail. UM, I'd love to just for our listeners,

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Speaker 1: especially to hear a little bit more about the work

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Speaker 1: that you've done for reparologists and maybe Mango books as well. UM,

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Speaker 1: to give a little sense of what you really bring

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Speaker 1: to this study. Well, I've been on the editorial board

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Speaker 1: at Reparatist magazine since which is three years after the

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Speaker 1: magazine was founded, and I've been the exact de editor

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Speaker 1: since two thousand and eight. Our most recent issue is

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Speaker 1: number A hundred and sixty seven, So it gives you

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Speaker 1: an idea of how much work is in that in

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Speaker 1: that volume. And I think it's interesting looking back over

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Speaker 1: the articles over the years to see how attitudes to

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Speaker 1: the Whitechapel murders case have changed. I've had fads for

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Speaker 1: various suspects, the Diary of the Ripper and more recently

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Speaker 1: katherinett o'shaw, we're just tested for DNA. So there's been

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Speaker 1: a lot of changing attitudes over the years. It's been

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Speaker 1: really good for me personally as the editor of the

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Speaker 1: magazine because it's helped me to stay neutral in my

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Speaker 1: approach to the case. I don't really have a favorite

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Speaker 1: suspect as such in the Ripper investigation. But when I

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Speaker 1: started work on the Swanson book in twos and twelve,

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Speaker 1: as I said earlier, with the amount of offshoots and

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Speaker 1: different lines of research, I knew that was going to

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Speaker 1: be in there. I thought it was going to be

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Speaker 1: unlikely if I went to a mainstream book publisher to

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Speaker 1: get the whole story, told if I happen to chop

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Speaker 1: out at least half of the research. So I decided

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Speaker 1: just to self publish it. Basically, my backgrounds in graphic

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Speaker 1: design and printing expertise, so I decided to self publish

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Speaker 1: it and just really cover everything that I found in

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Speaker 1: the research. And a friend of mine, Neil Bell, who's

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Speaker 1: a core from the first book that had published in

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Speaker 1: Mango Books, h said, Yeah, that's a great idea. Swampson

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Speaker 1: can be completely as you want it. But I've got

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Speaker 1: on an idea for a book, which is the Police

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Speaker 1: Code nine, which was the guide for the Victorian Police

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Speaker 1: that the director the c I D. Howard Vincent, had created.

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Speaker 1: We took the versions as a really as an exercise

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Speaker 1: to to try out the printer that I identified and

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Speaker 1: see if they're you know, the marketing expertise. It went

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Speaker 1: very well, and then someone said, I didn't know you're

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Speaker 1: a publisher. I've got an idea on the craze, another

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Speaker 1: Eastent crime story, and it just went from there. Every

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Speaker 1: time I published a book, didn't intend to create Mango

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Speaker 1: Books at such. It was more of a personal um project.

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Speaker 1: I just get getting more and more sudden sitions and

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Speaker 1: I think it's gone very very well. And now there's

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Speaker 1: probably about thirty five to forty titles on the Mango

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Speaker 1: Books in print and Blue Lamp Books, which is police

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Speaker 1: history various topics ranging from Victorian era through to the

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Speaker 1: craze in the sixties, and for me personally has been

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Speaker 1: obviously quite good setting up the bit, not only the

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Speaker 1: business side of things, but I've learned quite a lot

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Speaker 1: as well with various cases um learning the publishing industry.

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Speaker 1: But I do I do always say that that that

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Speaker 1: the creation of Mango Books is probably half the reason

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Speaker 1: why the Swanson book took seven years rather than the

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Speaker 1: two and a half that I've planned in the first place. Yea, ah, well,

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Speaker 1: so many of us are both grateful for your work

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Speaker 1: and reparologists and from Mango Books and the kinds of

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Speaker 1: things you've produced, and in this case in particular, of course,

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Speaker 1: I'm really glad that you made that choice with Swanson,

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Speaker 1: because it did mean it can be a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a unique project that has, as you say, so

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Speaker 1: many offshoots, so many interesting aspects that if it was

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Speaker 1: being published elsewhere, might have been kind of shaved off

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Speaker 1: without UM. But there's so much interesting detail, and it

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Speaker 1: really gives us a sense for the texture of of

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Speaker 1: his life and gives us fascinating glimpses into the world

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Speaker 1: around him. UM. Let's step into that world. Let's go

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Speaker 1: to London's East End in UM and start talking about

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Speaker 1: crime in London at that time. UM, there's violent crime

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Speaker 1: on record in the neighborhood, uh throughout the eighteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: But if we focus only on the White Chapel murders,

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Speaker 1: it might give us a slightly distorted picture of what

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Speaker 1: life was like there. So how violent was White Chapel

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Speaker 1: and surrounds in the eighties? What was the general understanding

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Speaker 1: of that violence among the people who lived there, maybe

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Speaker 1: the middle as readers of the press, the police, what

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Speaker 1: was Can we get a clearer picture of maybe violence

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Speaker 1: in White Chapel in eighties? Well, I think the thing

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Speaker 1: to remember about the East End at that time was

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Speaker 1: it that that was the area where most poverty in

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Speaker 1: London was really where the residents suffered, and through that

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Speaker 1: and the desperation at those poor people felt the crime

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Speaker 1: crime was was bred. And that was also the area

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Speaker 1: where the immigrants first landed when they arrived in London.

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Speaker 1: So there was simmering tensions among the whole population really,

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Speaker 1: But fifty years earlier, the rookeries where the poor and

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Speaker 1: the criminal classes congregated were to be found in the

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Speaker 1: east in the West End, rather in St Charles area

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Speaker 1: and spill Fields and White Chapel in the early teen

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Speaker 1: hundreds were by comparison and quite prosperous. When the West

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Speaker 1: End was developed, a large number of people were forced

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Speaker 1: from the rookeries, and when Oxford Street and Sharp Revenue,

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Speaker 1: which are well known West End streets now were developed,

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Speaker 1: St Charles area was Demolis. All the five five thousand

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Speaker 1: poor residents were relocated to the East End. And when

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Speaker 1: you combine that large movement of poor, poverty stricken residents

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Speaker 1: into an area, as to say, which had been prosperous,

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Speaker 1: but the buildings were getting older and dilapidated. Certainly the

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Speaker 1: the the sewage facilities around the East End were getting dated.

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Speaker 1: It just become too overcrowded um and obviously, unfortunately poverty

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Speaker 1: and overt and overcrowding does bread criminal element. And with

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Speaker 1: the mistrust of the growing numbers of Jewish imrigrants settling

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Speaker 1: in Whitechapel, the area was a bit of a powder

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Speaker 1: keg waiting to explode, and is not surprising in those

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Speaker 1: in that situation. The unprovoked attacks on others or domestic

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Speaker 1: violence was was quite commonplace and to some degree expected,

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Speaker 1: and of course with the press until the Ripper murders,

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Speaker 1: it was almost sort of overlooked the East endia. It

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Speaker 1: was incredible how close it was to the city which

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Speaker 1: obviously at that time London, the UK had a large

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Speaker 1: empire run from London, and it was interesting and surprising

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Speaker 1: really how close to that center of that empire. East

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Speaker 1: End was, but it was almost forgotten about and pushed

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Speaker 1: to one side. So the problems that the East Ends

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Speaker 1: were having with violence and all the poverty, we were

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Speaker 1: ignored by the press until the Ripper came along. So

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Speaker 1: in a way it sort of acted as a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a sort of social cleanser. But violence less

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Speaker 1: so much murder, but more petty violence and domestic violence

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Speaker 1: was quite prevalent in the East End that time, m HM.

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Speaker 1: And Donald Swanson as a member of the police is

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Speaker 1: in that environment, not always in the East End, often

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Speaker 1: serving elsewhere in London. But is there something we could

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Speaker 1: say to kind of sum up a commonality to the

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Speaker 1: majority of crimes investigated by Donald Swanson during that time

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Speaker 1: If it wasn't murder after murder after murder, um, what

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Speaker 1: kinds of crimes was he investigating and how often was

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Speaker 1: he in the East End versus elsewhere in London? Well,

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Speaker 1: the street violence was usually dealt with by the uniform

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Speaker 1: policeman on the beat, and those officers were who gained

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Speaker 1: promotion such as spons would be transferred to a different

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Speaker 1: division within the mat So not always once you became

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Speaker 1: a sergeant inspector or joined the detectives, you'd move out

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Speaker 1: of one division move into another, and so it was

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Speaker 1: his sponsor. And he served the first two years of

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Speaker 1: his career as a police comsortable in a division which

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Speaker 1: is in Westminster where the government and other official buildings

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Speaker 1: were situated. So it's unlikely that in those early years

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Speaker 1: he saw much in the way of street violence while

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Speaker 1: on his beat. He was transferred to Y Division in Highgate,

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Speaker 1: which is North London, and the following year promoted to sergeant,

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Speaker 1: transferred to Bowen in East London in eighteen seventy one,

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Speaker 1: and then from there to Plast those stations also in

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Speaker 1: the East End, and finally he's moved to Scotland Jared

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Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy six. So he served as hople of

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Speaker 1: five years in the East End during the early eighteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: and he probably knew the area well, but because he

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Speaker 1: served his early days on the beach, where he would

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Speaker 1: have seen that sort of violence were really served elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Although he had been aware that the Eastern was a

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Speaker 1: very violent area, he wouldn't have seen much personally. In Swanson.

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Speaker 1: You tell an interesting story of a case and and

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Speaker 1: the coverage in the book is brief, and I've gone

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Speaker 1: back and looked at the newspapers and and the coverage

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Speaker 1: of the papers is brief, but this is seventeen years

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Speaker 1: before the Whitechappel murders. In one. Uh, some of our

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Speaker 1: main figures that we think about when we think about

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Speaker 1: the Whitechappel murders, especially Frederick Aberline, and now with your

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Speaker 1: book so healthfully lifting Swanson to the same deserved level

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Speaker 1: of attention. Uh. Those two men together infiltrated in the

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Speaker 1: illegal playhouse. Can you describe that operation? Well, that's the

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Speaker 1: only case I was able to find were Swanson and

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Speaker 1: Outline work together. But there must have been more, as

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Speaker 1: though we both stationed at Kentish Town Police station for

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Speaker 1: the fifteen months that's wantson was on Wy Division, so

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Speaker 1: that they must have they must have worked more closely.

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Speaker 1: But this one, as you said, found out for yourself, Carlie,

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Speaker 1: is the only one in the newspapers, and it's only

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Speaker 1: briefly reported on. But it occurred in July one. Swanson

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Speaker 1: was a PC and Aberline a sarjump and complaints have

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Speaker 1: been made to the police that the infamous fear to

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Speaker 1: Presario in Presario, George Sanger was putting on plays without

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Speaker 1: a license, and to get around this he placed advertisements

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Speaker 1: stating that entry was free. But when nearly four dred

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Speaker 1: people turned up on the night, they were told they

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Speaker 1: had to buy a program before they had gained admittances.

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Speaker 1: Ab Line went along in playing clothes and watched the

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Speaker 1: performance and observed what the new newspapers described. Got it

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Speaker 1: written here as several drunks, men of a doubtful character

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Speaker 1: and women have an immral character causing nuisance to the

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Speaker 1: billet to the public in justslymation. What an evening that

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Speaker 1: that was like. Sanger eventually appeared before the magistrates and

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Speaker 1: was fined just five pound. And I know a little

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Speaker 1: bit about saying that he he did go on to continue

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Speaker 1: with these with these um illegal playhouse career, should we say,

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Speaker 1: And he was quite quite notorious. Swanson was transferred to

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Speaker 1: Bow in the East End three months later, on Atline

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Speaker 1: to Whitechapel two years later. And as you said, they

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Speaker 1: worked on the near ripro investigation to get and there's

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Speaker 1: no doubt at that time they would have remembered each

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Speaker 1: other and in facting Swanson's personal address book, which I'm

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Speaker 1: very lucky to own, he's got Abelene's address in that

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Speaker 1: address book, Um, where where he retired to? So the

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Speaker 1: detectives obviously remained friendly throughout all those years. M hm.

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Speaker 1: So let's spend a little more time focused on Donald Swanson.

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Speaker 1: Who he was. Um, he's a Scott from ter So

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Speaker 1: you give a compelling portrait of his early life and

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Speaker 1: his entry into the London Police. And I've heard you

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Speaker 1: say in other parks that when you're reading biographies you're

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Speaker 1: often frustrated when all the early life gets skipped over

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Speaker 1: in the first page. And that's just onto something that

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Speaker 1: happens when the subject is in their fifties or something

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Speaker 1: like that. So let's talk a little bit about some

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Speaker 1: of that early formation of who Swanson was. Um, can

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Speaker 1: you give us a picture of his of his family

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Speaker 1: and where he grew up? Well, Swanson, I think perhaps

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Speaker 1: uniquely among policemen of that time. You know a lot

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Speaker 1: of a lot of comfortables joined the police, were from

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Speaker 1: out of London, laborers or farm workers and came looking

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Speaker 1: for regular work, which which the police obviously was at

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Speaker 1: that time. Um. But Swanson grew was born to a

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Speaker 1: brewing family. His father, John Swanson, moved around Cafe Nest,

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Speaker 1: which is in the far north of Scotland, even beyond

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Speaker 1: the Highlands. If you tell anyone from Thurso where he

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Speaker 1: grew up, that we grew up in the Highlands, they

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Speaker 1: get quite upset because they count it as the lowlands

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Speaker 1: up there. But he's his family moved around from basically

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Speaker 1: from distilleriy distillery, very small affairs, even brewing whiskey breen

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Speaker 1: beer rather or just still in whiskey m and I

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Speaker 1: visited the small farmhouse where where he was born and

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Speaker 1: it's just literally a small stone affair on a on

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Speaker 1: a bend of a river with sheep grazing around. There's

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Speaker 1: there's nothing around for about seven or eight miles. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: Donald's father, John Swanson, had an accident. This is this

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Speaker 1: is before Donald was born, but his mother was pregnant

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Speaker 1: with him. He had an accident where he got his

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Speaker 1: clothing was caught in a bit of shanery in his

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Speaker 1: student his arm was dragged in. Eventually had to have

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Speaker 1: that removed, and with the elder sons having to left

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Speaker 1: home for other types of work, John Swanson couldn't continue

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Speaker 1: in that trade anymore and moved to thursoh which was

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Speaker 1: the nearest town about seven miles away, and that was

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Speaker 1: quite That was quite good for Donald because it was

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Speaker 1: he meant he didn't have to work in the distillery,

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Speaker 1: didn't become a laborer on the farm. He obviously had

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Speaker 1: quite a high degree of intelligence. Um he was. He

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Speaker 1: went to the local school in thursoh which at that

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Speaker 1: time it wasn't compulsory to send your children to school

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Speaker 1: and it was basically had to pay for an education.

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Speaker 1: But I think that his parents must have seen something

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Speaker 1: in there youngest son, Donald and they paid for him

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Speaker 1: to go to school. He spent eleven years into schools

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Speaker 1: in thirdsone and proved to be an exceptional pupil, regularly

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Speaker 1: winning prizes in educational and annual educational examinations, and eventually,

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Speaker 1: by Tommy was sixteen, he became a second master at

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Speaker 1: the Miller Institute, which is the school he was in

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Speaker 1: assisting the head teacher, and it looked as though he

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Speaker 1: had a career marked out in education. But I'm not

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Speaker 1: quite sure there's there's there's two possible reasons why he

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Speaker 1: gave up that job in the June and moved to London. Either,

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Speaker 1: as as often reported, he didn't see much of a

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Speaker 1: future in education, but again that that could have been

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Speaker 1: a secure trade for for someone like night Donald Um,

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Speaker 1: but also his two sisters and had married to firemen

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Speaker 1: in and had moved to London. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: that came around. I don't know whether the two firemen

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Speaker 1: and been to Scotland and met or the girl. The

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Speaker 1: two sisters had gone to London met than there, but

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Speaker 1: they're both married firemen and had children. Sister Mary, her

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Speaker 1: husband Peter, died in early only sixty seven, and again unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: she was pregnant and gave birth to Donald's niece, Petro

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Speaker 1: sheer Um and Donald went to London quite soon after

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Speaker 1: and stayed with the second sister. Now I don't know whether,

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Speaker 1: as I said, Donald just gave up turned his back

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Speaker 1: on a educational career, or he went to London to

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Speaker 1: support the family, which I suspect may have been the case.

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Speaker 1: He got a job quite quickly in the offices of

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Speaker 1: a city clerk, just as a general clark. Nothing nothing

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Speaker 1: too strainuous, but again some degree of intelligence was required.

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Speaker 1: But the interesting thing is that that his employer, John Michele,

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Speaker 1: would later write that he knew he'd known of Donald

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Speaker 1: Swanson for a number of years, and I suspect although

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Speaker 1: I haven't found any evidence that John Michaele was related

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Speaker 1: in some way to Robert Michael, who was Donald's tutor

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Speaker 1: at the school back in thursoh So John Michall, he

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Speaker 1: was in his late fifties at this time. He had

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Speaker 1: been working in London for quite some time. He was

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Speaker 1: from Manchester. I think it Rothery's Scott who had made

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Speaker 1: a home in Manchester and he decided to close the

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Speaker 1: business and retire move back to Lancashire UM in the

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Speaker 1: March of eight and Donald had a choice then, you know,

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Speaker 1: did he move back to Third Zone, resume teaching career

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Speaker 1: or did he look for work in London? And he

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Speaker 1: literally picked up that day's newspaper and looked in the

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Speaker 1: Situations can Colum and saw an advert from the Metropolitan

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Speaker 1: Police and just literally that day just just wrote in

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Speaker 1: a letter of application UM. And that was the start

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Speaker 1: of his career. Mhm, m hm. So let's continue stepping

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Speaker 1: forward in his career. Maybe talk about a couple of

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Speaker 1: significant moments for policing London after the time when Donald

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Speaker 1: had joined UM, especially thinking of the turf fraud scandal

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Speaker 1: of eighteen seventy seven and the trial of the detectives, um,

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Speaker 1: what were the consequences for the reputation of the police

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Speaker 1: in London and and the structure of the police force

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Speaker 1: even and and what was what was someone Swanson doing

380
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: at the time of the turf fraud scandal on The

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Speaker 1: turf fraud was a long running scam in which a

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Speaker 1: London game committed a fraud on a rich French widow.

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Speaker 1: They pretended to be honest bookmakers and promised to guaranteed

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Speaker 1: winnings on horse races. And it went in for some months,

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Speaker 1: and the gang slowly encouraged her to send more money

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Speaker 1: until he has listened to discover she sent ten thousand

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Speaker 1: pound which was the equivalent of more half a million

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Speaker 1: pounds to day. You think she would have realized long

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Speaker 1: before that point the money you're sending wasn't guaranteeing the

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00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 1: same amount of income. But Superintendent Frederick Williamson of the

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00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 1: Detective Department sent his best men to investigate. But for

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Speaker 1: some reason, the gang always seemed to be one step

393
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Speaker 1: ahead and avoided arrest. They're eventually captured and sent to prison,

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Speaker 1: but one of them then wrote to the government revealing

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Speaker 1: the reason they had been so difficult to arrest. Was

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Speaker 1: that the detectives had been bribed to warn them when

397
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,680
Speaker 1: the police were getting close. Three detectives from the department

398
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: and one corrupt solicitor were put on China found guilty

399
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: as you say in eighteen seventy seven, and the result

400
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 1: was that the Detective Department of Scotland Yard was completely

401
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 1: disbanded and replaced by a new system called the Criminal

402
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 1: Investigation Department, or the c i D. All of the

403
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 1: detectives who had served in the old department that had

404
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,879
Speaker 1: not been arrested replaced on free months probation had to

405
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 1: prove they could be trusted. Luckily, for Donald, he had

406
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: only been appointed to detectives two weeks before the discovery

407
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Speaker 1: of the turf fraud, so he can have been evolved

408
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Speaker 1: in the cover up by the corrupt detectives. One there's

409
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: no evidence he was in any way less than honest.

410
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Speaker 1: Had he joined six months earlier, it might have been

411
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Speaker 1: difficult to resist the large amount of regular money on

412
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Speaker 1: offer in the form of bribes, but as it was.

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Speaker 1: As one of the first new officers of the new

414
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: c i D, he was one of the new wave

415
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Speaker 1: of young detectives who helped restore the reputation of the

416
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Speaker 1: department following the scandal. Do we know what his role

417
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Speaker 1: was in reforming that? That's the idea. After the scandal, well,

418
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Speaker 1: there were around that time there were in the detective department.

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Speaker 1: Before the fraud was discovered, there were I think just

420
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Speaker 1: just a dozen detectives and they covered the whole of London.

421
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: Um Donald was working I think in class Bow station

422
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Speaker 1: when he took his detective examinations became a sergeant. Of course,

423
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Speaker 1: at that time there was no detective departments within each

424
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Speaker 1: of the divisions, so if you become a detective, he

425
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: basically moved to Scotland Yard. So he became detective sergeant

426
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 1: and moved and moved there. But Um, the first the

427
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: first sort of two or three weeks, I'm sure he

428
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Speaker 1: was just finding his feet. While the detectives are waiting

429
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Speaker 1: for trial. There was a notorious forger called called himself

430
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Speaker 1: Captain George, which I think is a fantastic name of

431
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: how you wouldn't be suspicious for someone who introduced themselves

432
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,119
Speaker 1: as Captain George, uh and to try and swindle you

433
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: out of your money I think would be quite quite unusual.

434
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: But he eventually was rested recognized by Swanson honor surveillance

435
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,960
Speaker 1: with another detective called Frederick Saw and they followed him

436
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: go into a fence to mostly porn porn or change

437
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: the bonds that he Captain George had stolen, and he

438
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: was he was well wanted all around Europe. Eventually they

439
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 1: caught him and it was quite an interesting example in

440
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: Swanson's personal memoranda where he writes about the arrest of

441
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: Captain George and when they tried to take him to

442
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: Scotland Yard, they call a passing cab and they wrestle

443
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,880
Speaker 1: him in and he's sat between the two of them

444
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: and the just having a bit of a chat, and

445
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 1: and suddenly Captain George becomes very violent and tries to

446
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: get this piece of paper out of his pocket which

447
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,360
Speaker 1: has got his confirmation of his address and his name

448
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 1: and all those details which obviously would have secured his conviction.

449
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: But he tries to shove the paper into his health

450
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,920
Speaker 1: to try eating the evidence, and Swanson's grabbing one arm

451
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: and Shaw's grabbing the other, and they're wrestling, and as

452
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: the cabs rattling along towards Scotland Yard. Um, I think

453
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: Share gets bitten for his trouble and Swampson tries dragging

454
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 1: the paper out of his mouth, but they do. They

455
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: do get him to court and he is arrested and

456
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,800
Speaker 1: convicted and I think there's someone from Switzerland has come

457
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 1: over from the Swiss police and they taken away to

458
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: be tried for crimes over there. But that was one

459
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: of probably one of the first cases that Swanson was

460
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: involved with once he became a detective, so again different

461
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: sort of work. Rather than being a police comfortable or

462
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: sergeant where they'll be sent by someone to arrest someone,

463
00:25:57,640 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: he was the one that was doing the investigation and

464
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: conducting the surveillance. And then a few years later we

465
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: get to another volatile period in London policing that ends

466
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: up again changing the structure and I believe leads to

467
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: the formation of Special branch Um or what eventually become

468
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: Special Branch. Can you describe the Fenian bombing campaign of

469
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,479
Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties and what role Donald Swatson would have

470
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: had as a member of CIETY at the time. Well,

471
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: the Fenian bombing campaign started in eight eighty one and

472
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: it lasted for four years. There was a previous campaign

473
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: in the eighteen sixties and again they were trying to

474
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: establish Irish independence. But in the eighteen sixties heads of

475
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 1: state and other notable people were attacked in an attempt

476
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,239
Speaker 1: to highlight the campaign. But the eighties they were they

477
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,400
Speaker 1: were a little bit more direct in that they realized

478
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: that if they targeted landmarks around around London and elsewhere

479
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: around the UK, that they didn't still fear in the

480
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: public and achieve an audience with the government. Um. And

481
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: in the age eighties there are nineteen bombs exploded in

482
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: Brittany Leavin in London, and these were places such as

483
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: Scotland Yard itself was attacked. There were there were bombs

484
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: put around the base of Nelson's Column which failed to explode.

485
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: At London Underground saw four explosions. And it's quite interesting

486
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,360
Speaker 1: because obviously in the UK this is something that happened

487
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 1: quite a lot in the seventies with the I RARA

488
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: similar sort of thing um. But in terms of in

489
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: terms of Swanson's involvement, he had been in the c

490
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: I D for five years and he build a reputation

491
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: as a discreet and shrewd officer, had been well known

492
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: for his arrest of the railway murder. Personally for him

493
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: made returning and eighty one, and he'd been entrusted with

494
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: delicate investigations involved in the aristocracy, and this time he

495
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 1: was taken under the wing of Superintendent Williamson, who was

496
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 1: incidentally quiet Um, an ill man. He was greatly regarded

497
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: by all the police officers and the public and the press,

498
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: but he obviously wasn't very well and was perhaps looking

499
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 1: for a younger detective that he could act as a mentor.

500
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 1: So and it seems to have been sponsored so that

501
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: the two officers worked together quite on a quite a

502
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 1: number of investigations and in both the Fenian campaign and

503
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 1: later with the Bloody Sunday rights in trafug were square.

504
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: They worked together looking at the overall picture of rather

505
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: than individual incidents, and there were piecing together a direction

506
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: for the investigation. And that's exactly what happened later on

507
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: in the River case when sponsor was appointed by the

508
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: Commissioner Shovels warrant to leave the investigation from Scotland Chard. Yeah,

509
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: let's talk about Charles Warren a little bit. Can you

510
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 1: briefly describe who he was and his career leading up

511
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: to to six and then and then how would you

512
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: describe Warren's relationship to the various players in London policing

513
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: and governance, you know what to find his approach to

514
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: policing as commissioner. Warren had enjoyed a hugely successful military

515
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: career and he was a skilled surveyor and archaeologist. He

516
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 1: had served in Gibralt, to the Palestine, South Africa, and

517
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: was in Egypt. And how Secretary Huge Shilders wrote to

518
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: him offering the position of Commissioner of the Met. He

519
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: was wanted to take the place of the existing Commissioner's

520
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: Readmund Henderson, who had been popular since his appointment in

521
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: eighteen sixty eight, but in recent years had grown out

522
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: of touch with the growing force and his own men.

523
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: When a riot took place in eight and eighty six

524
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: and the Met bandly bungled its response, Henderson was forced

525
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: to resign. And Shielders had met Warren four years earlier

526
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 1: and was obviously impressed with his no nonsense attitude. He

527
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: was exactly the man that Childer's thought was needed to

528
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: restore public order in a time of riots and to

529
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: bring them met back into shape. And and when when

530
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: Warren was appointed, immediately brought an increased drill training to

531
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: get the bobbies in the beating better shape. He wrote

532
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: to the government asking for better uniform and boots, because

533
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: he realized from his military pass that the men needed

534
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: to be equipped as best as possible. So Warren increased

535
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: the fitness and the efficiency of the uniformed officer as

536
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: an effectively molding them into a kind of army. He

537
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: left the detect due department to his assistant commissioners and

538
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: his appointment was where received at first. But the problems

539
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: began when Schilders lost his post as Home Secretary following

540
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: a general election and a man named Henry Matthews was appointed.

541
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: Whereas Warren had he joined Shilders backing right from the start,

542
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: the commissioner would be unsure whether he could rely on

543
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: Matthews for support. How many officers in the police command

544
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: structure had done foreign service, like like Warren had. You

545
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: know you said he was in Egypt. How common was

546
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: it for soldiers returning from overseas to take a post

547
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: in one of London's police forces? And and did Warren

548
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: have an influence on that? As you mentioned, he brought

549
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: a different kind of attitude, discipline, drilling equipment um to

550
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: the London police forces. But did he have any change

551
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: in recruitment as well. Well. The senior posting the map

552
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: right from the start were usually filled by the military

553
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: or legal men who had never served in the police.

554
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: The first commissioners actually were Charles Rowan would the Napoleonic

555
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: War wasn't at Waterloo, and Richard Maine, who was a barrister.

556
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: Main's eventual replacement, Edmund Henson, who we just spoke about,

557
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,880
Speaker 1: was lieutenant colonel in the British Army, and all the

558
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: assistant commissioners were also military men because it was generally

559
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: believed that this was required to maintain discipline over the

560
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: rank and file police officers, and so the highest rank

561
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: that someone like Swanson could achieve through promotion was superintendent.

562
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: And this this was not something that Warren or any

563
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: other commission who really had a control over. That was

564
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: a Home Office policy. Um it wasn't for many years

565
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: until into the twentieth century when that started to change.

566
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: So what although Warren gladly accepted the offer as a commissioner,

567
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: it was never something that he intended to continue forever,

568
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: shall we say, He knew it was only basically to

569
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: bring them back into shape, and then he had returned

570
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: to his military career, which obviously he did later. Was

571
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: was that also true for the for constables and kind

572
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: of the barbies on the beat? Where were they being

573
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: recruited from? You mentioned earlier farmers and that any thing,

574
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: But it was there a more general way to describe

575
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: the backgrounds of those officers. Yeah, Well, the constables that

576
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: were invited or or would apply to join the police

577
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: where they'd always start at the bottom and generally they'd

578
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 1: have three months training after they after they joined up, UM,

579
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: they'd have to be physically examined and then they'd have

580
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 1: a very rudimentary educational test. And the reason for that

581
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: really was that the the should we say, the more

582
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: physical applicants who were laborers or um farm workers, people

583
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 1: that used to working outdoors would become exceptional bobbies on

584
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: the beat because they were used to the rigors of

585
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: the physical demands. You know, they'd be walking up eight

586
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: or nine hours a day, um, NonStop around around the streets.

587
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: Whereas people that would apply like Swans and little Child

588
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: other officers who obviously had had a degree of education

589
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: or showed some signs of UM intelligence when they at

590
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: this rudimentary test, they were usually placed into a division

591
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: which was Westminster. UM, not in Scotland Jards right away,

592
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: although Scotland Yard was on a division itself. There are

593
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: other police stations in a division. And yeah, and Swanson

594
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 1: was serving at King Street. And this was really what

595
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 1: they'd call the pool or the reserve of officers, so

596
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: that when extra help was needed that have this sort

597
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 1: of intelligent core, if you like, of um of police constables.

598
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: And you'd find that in those early years the constables

599
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 1: that had been more of a physical background would remain

600
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: on on division really throughout their careers. They may get

601
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 1: promoted to sergeant, but they would serve their years in

602
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: the same streets, whereas the more intelligent officers, educated officers

603
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: would be moved around that they'd become the detectives and

604
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: work their way up in that way, eventually making their

605
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: way to Scotland Yard in the main mm hm hm.

606
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: And you mentioned that there was but things got more

607
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 1: difficult for Charles Warren at the top as Commissioner when

608
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 1: Shoulders leaves the Home Office and Matthews comes in. UM.

609
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: And then as we'll go forward, I'm I'm sure we'll

610
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about about some of that

611
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 1: conflict between Warren and as Commissioner and Matthews as Home Secretary.

612
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: Do we know about how Swanson, as a member of

613
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: the c I D would have been involved or maybe

614
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: stayed uninvolved from the kind of politics and arm wrestling

615
00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: that would have happened in the leadership. Well, it's very

616
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 1: difficult to say, because those sort of opinions don't appear

617
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:44,240
Speaker 1: anywhere in Swanson's personal recollections. I was a little bit disappointed,

618
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 1: although not surprised, to be honest, when Nevil Swapson was

619
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: giving me these number of boxes with all the notepads

620
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: and private documentation. I was hoping that I would find

621
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: like a secret diary that not necessarily talked about that

622
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: he's work on the Ripper or anything like that, but

623
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: would real some of his more of his personal feelings

624
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: about some of the officers he worked with. Um there's

625
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: nothing at all about about Warren Anderson or anyone else

626
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: with the colleagues, which I'm sure we talk about a

627
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: little or later. So, although I suspect that um swamps

628
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: Swampson would have recognized that that Warren was working on

629
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: hard on behalf of his men to get you know,

630
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 1: the better equipment the better pension plans, that sort of thing.

631
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: There's no there's no incidences anywhere to say how Swapson

632
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: failed about that. I suspect he just supported his boss,

633
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: who he recognized, as I said, was doing his best

634
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: for his employees, which are obviously the officers. Were there

635
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: other things you did find, maybe not comments about his colleagues,

636
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: but other aspects of his personal documents or the reminiscences

637
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: of his family that give you a picture of his

638
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,880
Speaker 1: kind of personality and opinions about other things. Well, again

639
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: not necessarily in terms of opinions, but certainly an insight

640
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: into into his character. I mean, and he's professional on

641
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: the face of it. On his professional side, he was

642
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 1: just very firm, but fair and methodical in his work

643
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 1: and everyday manner. He seems to be a modest guy

644
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: who didn't seek out the limelight. Um and in fact,

645
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: to be honest, it would be horrified to learn there

646
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,959
Speaker 1: would have been a book written about him. But there's

647
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: there's one ledger which I think he was writing his

648
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: cases in the mid to late eighteen seventies and up

649
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: until perhaps two when he really sort of took on

650
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: some delicate cases where he is a little bit more

651
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: for fright in his thoughts on the work there and

652
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: there's there's one case in the book which I talk

653
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: about where um, a lady should we say, of a

654
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,960
Speaker 1: of a of a uncertain background, had almost became the

655
00:36:55,040 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: Duchess of Somerset from through marriage um and and it's

656
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: just like an amazing story and that it was just

657
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: started off as a fraud where there's pages stolen from

658
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: her baptism register in a west end church um and

659
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: and the Duke of Somersets solicitors look at it and

660
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: they realized that the dates have been altered. And when

661
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: Swanson is called in by the actually by the vicar

662
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: of that church wondering why the pages have been stolen,

663
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 1: doesn't take long for just wants them to work out

664
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: that these pages have been stolen as any sort of

665
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: memento or anything like that. So he speaks to the solicitors,

666
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: who finds out this sort of forged document there um

667
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: and then really starts looking into this lady m h

668
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: M Mrs Moore. Her married name was Lillian Stanhope was

669
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,239
Speaker 1: was her maiden name. And it turns out that she's

670
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: literally lived a completely bizarre life from a show going

671
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: live of Paul who worked as a notorious prostitute. Um

672
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: big amost marriages, litigimate children, all sorts of things going

673
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: on the background there. H And as I said Swanson,

674
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: it was he was almost beside himself in this ledge.

675
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: As you right, he writes the case up um and

676
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 1: then he looked, he looks at the right at the end. Um.

677
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,240
Speaker 1: She was about to be arrested, but she she persuaded

678
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: a doctor to say the woy, she's pregnant, so you

679
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: can't do anything until the baby has been born. And

680
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: it took ten months before they realized that it was

681
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: another another fraud UM on that. But in the meantime,

682
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 1: the Duchess of Somerset u use her influence to stop

683
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 1: any any arrest or or any conviction of Lillian Saint.

684
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: More So, Swanson recognizes what's gone on, and he does

685
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: writing's again you gotta remember these are personal comments. He didn't.

686
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure he'd been horrified to know that anyone would

687
00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 1: read these. He's saying, it's a disgraceful um blocking of justice. Um,

688
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: this this woman is complete so and so UM. But

689
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: that that's prutty, you know, that's the only sort of

690
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: instances where he's got any opinion that's not just you know,

691
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 1: the policeman in him, just writing things down in a

692
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:21,759
Speaker 1: matter of fact way. M hm. Past studies of the

693
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: White Chapel murders that focus on the police have explored

694
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: the roles of of Charles Warren, of course, the commissioner

695
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: Frederick Aberlein, who had that career in White Chapel and

696
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: h Division and then is brought back because he's so

697
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 1: familiar with it to do with the investigation. Uh, you know,

698
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: it's covered Anderson. Um. Why has Donald Swanson's role often

699
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: been overlooked in previous work about the White Chapel murders. Well,

700
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: I think until the Swanson marginalia was discovered in the eighties,

701
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 1: Swanson's involvement the investigation was virtually unknown. Obviously, he's he's

702
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,320
Speaker 1: if you look at the police files that were opened

703
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies to the to the public um

704
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: and then and then it was controlled. He just appears

705
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 1: as an officer who has written some reports. Um, as

706
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 1: many other officers have written reports. You don't really realize

707
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: how much of a central figure he was. But the

708
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:23,840
Speaker 1: marginalia was discovered alongside in the in the family archives,

709
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: alongside a memorandum written by Charles Warren which appoints sponsor

710
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 1: to lead the investigation from Scotland Yard. And before these

711
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: discoveries of policeman, attracting most attention were those who the

712
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 1: newspapers reporters of could access, as you say, such as

713
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: White Chapel detectives are blind and read um. The newspaper

714
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: reporters would obviously be going around Whitechapel and there'd no

715
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: from H Division who would be working on the case. Um.

716
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: And I think combine that, combined with a blanket ban

717
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: on not speaking to reports from Scotland Yard, Swanson's name

718
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: hardly appears in any newspapers from and as result, the

719
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: older books on the Ripper don't sometimes even mention him

720
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 1: at all. And it's not really until the discovery of

721
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: the marginalian the memorandum that his role has been recognized

722
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: and reevaluated and his position here the investigation is now understood.

723
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: James Monroe hands over the c I D to Robert Anderson.

724
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: Who were these two men and what were the circumstances

725
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: of that transfer of the row in c I D.

726
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: James Monroe had expected to be appointed Director of the

727
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: c i D un the departure of Charles Howard Vincent Um,

728
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 1: but the position was changed to become Assistant Commissioner rather

729
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: than Director of the c i D. Monroe had to

730
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: report to the Commissioner Edward Henderson. Is that the director

731
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: at the Home Office, as vincent had dumb a. Monroe

732
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: then thought he would replace Henderson as Commissioner when he

733
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 1: was when he resigned in eighty six, I need to

734
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 1: see Charles Warren appointed. And as a result there was

735
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: constant friction between the two for the a team moths

736
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: they worked together. Robert Anderson had been employed at Scotland

737
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: Charge for several years an advisor on Phenia matters, and

738
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: he was a friend and he became a friend of Monroe,

739
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 1: and the two work together on the Phenian bombing campaign

740
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: in the early eighties. By the summer of Monroe had

741
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: enough of his own battles with Home Secretary Henry Matthews

742
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: as well as Charles Warren, resigned and Anderson replaced him

743
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: as Assistant Commissioner, primarily because Matthews knew he was one

744
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 1: of the few officers who would work with Warren. So

745
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 1: there are a few aspects of this case that brought

746
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: the police in for criticism, maybe more than a few,

747
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:46,400
Speaker 1: but uh, one of the aspects that that drew particular

748
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 1: fire for. You know, reading the newspapers of the time,

749
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 1: you see harsh criticism for um absentee leadership. And one

750
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: of those officers that we've just been talking about, Robert Anderson. Ah,

751
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: he was absent from office on the day that Marian

752
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 1: Nichols was killed, and he continues a monthly and sick

753
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 1: leave the day after any chapman is killed. Um, can

754
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: you describe the c i D without him? With him

755
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: not present, how would the office have functioned? Well, it's

756
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: quite quite a good alibi for Anderson there. He maybe

757
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 1: he should be put forward as a suspect. Actually, Um,

758
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: and Anderson, as you said he was, He was absent

759
00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: for quite probably the core of the early investigation really.

760
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: But it's interesting in his memoirs he makes it sound

761
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,400
Speaker 1: as if the c i D couldn't cope without him

762
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: and the department was demoralized by Monroe's departure, But in reality,

763
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: the c i D was in was in pretty good shape.

764
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,879
Speaker 1: The senior officers such as Swanson, Naberline, and little Child

765
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: had all worked their way up the ranks, and we

766
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: vastly experienced, and they certainly were professional enough to continue

767
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 1: their work despite the departure of their boss and the

768
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: absence of Anderson. Uh. Certainly when it when it comes

769
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: to October, they managed to organize and carry out a

770
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: detailed house to house in search in March Apple while

771
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 1: Anderson was away. So I think that it was more

772
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: of an issue for the press. It was. It was

773
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: an opportunity for them to bash the police for not

774
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: catching the killer. Um what was Anderson doing? He was

775
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: away Warren and in the early days was also on

776
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: the holiday, so there was no leadership at the top,

777
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 1: but certainly the officers on the ground who were doing

778
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 1: the work and at Scotland jards such as Swanson, we're

779
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: working flat out, you know, and you can look at

780
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 1: the reports in the official police files to see you know,

781
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,799
Speaker 1: certainly work was going ahead there. And when Anderson came back,

782
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: obviously he resumed control or took control of the c

783
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: I D for probably for the first time, um, and

784
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 1: and then almost made it known that you know, now

785
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: I'm back in charge, everything is going to be okay. Um.

786
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 1: But you know, I think that the the main problem

787
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,240
Speaker 1: for and with Anderson been away, was was for the press,

788
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,000
Speaker 1: and they probably quite delighted, to be honest, that he

789
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: wasn't there. It gave them a reason to give the

790
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: police a bit of a bit of a bashing. M hm.

791
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: When when Donald Swanson was put in charge of the

792
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 1: White Chappel murders on September, how did he then proceed

793
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 1: with the investigation. What do we know about his involvement

794
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,879
Speaker 1: with the police efforts over the next month? What did

795
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: that look like? I think when when Warren wrote that

796
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 1: memorandum appointing Swanson to the overall overall charge at Scotland Yard,

797
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,360
Speaker 1: he made he made a comment saying that I found

798
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 1: a most important letter was sent to Division yesterday without

799
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: he's seeing it. This is quite an air and should

800
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: not happen again. And all the papers in Central Office

801
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: on the subject of the murder must be kept in

802
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 1: his room. And immediately from that, and in fact back

803
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: dating some of the reports, every every import and telegram

804
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: on the investigation was submit to Swanson at Scotland Yard.

805
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: So you can imagine that he's spent a good few

806
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 1: weeks reading and digesting all the reports that had been

807
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: generated um before his appointment and right back to m

808
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: Smith and Martha Tabram before the murder of Polly Nichols,

809
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: all the reports that had come from H Division in

810
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 1: Whitechapel and J Division of bethanal Green who had been

811
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: involved in the Marria Nichols investigation. And it was only

812
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,800
Speaker 1: really once he'd done this he could identify potential links

813
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,839
Speaker 1: and lines of investigation and a good indication of how

814
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,880
Speaker 1: much worked there was force once and on. That was

815
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: was in the report which we speak of later, and

816
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure where he writes that by the mid October

817
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: it's almost a thousand dockets existed in addition to the

818
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: newspaper the numerous police and newspaper reports, and they all

819
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: have to be read and digested by Swanson. So I

820
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 1: think it was probably to start with a massive and

821
00:46:55,320 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: ongoing of a massive project for him two red and

822
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 1: understand and assimilate everything that was going on um up

823
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: to that time, because you know, there probably there probably

824
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: was a good three or four weeks of reporting before

825
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: he was appointed on the fifteen September. M HM. Can

826
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: you describe what a day in the life would have

827
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: looked like for him? You know, is he going from

828
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 1: his home to Scotland Yards, staying there all day and

829
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 1: then going home again. And what would he do when

830
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: he was there in the office with those mounds of paper.

831
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: What what did a day in his life looked like

832
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 1: when he takes on the investigation. Well, at this time

833
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: Swanson and his family were living in South London. Um

834
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: I would imagine knowing that route, it would have been

835
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: probably a cab ride in each day and each evening.

836
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: But we were quite fortunate because in eighty nine there

837
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: was a Department committee investigating the police work into the

838
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: riper investigation and looking at the likes of expenses and

839
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: pensions and that sort of thing, and Swanson was one

840
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: of the officers that was called to give evidence. And

841
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: he does actually describe his working day in between September.

842
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 1: It's quite quite a heavy workload, he's he said, I

843
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: had to be at the office at half past eight

844
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: in the morning. Then I had to read for all

845
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: the papers that had come in, which took me into

846
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,240
Speaker 1: eleven PM and sometimes between one and two in the morning.

847
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 1: Then I had to go to whitechap and see the officers,

848
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: generally getting home between two and three am. So you know,

849
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 1: you can you imagine that there's there's something like about

850
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: fourteen hours minimum of just literally just reading the reports

851
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 1: and statements which are coming each day. And that's an

852
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: enormou that's an enormous amount of work two, you know,

853
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,239
Speaker 1: for one officer to do. And then once he's done that,

854
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: as he said, he had to go to Whitechapel and

855
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: see those h Division officers. And after Cabinetos was killed

856
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: and the city police came in liaising with those officers

857
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: as well, they obviously make their they obviously make their

858
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: plans and a grass reports for the next day when

859
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: it looked as though it would be the same, all same,

860
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 1: all over again. So very intense period for those uh,

861
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: those two or three months there for him. Can you

862
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 1: describe the Dear Boss letter? What effect would that letter

863
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: have on the investigation when it arrived in the press

864
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 1: office and would Swanson have also been involved in sorting

865
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 1: letters like this as they came in. Yeah, well that

866
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 1: the Dear Boss letter was received by the Central News

867
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: Agency on the twenty September and it was almost certainly

868
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 1: written by journalist if Tom Bullying of the Central News

869
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 1: Agency itself or American Harry dam who who was a

870
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: reporter for the Star Star Wars a new paper but

871
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 1: probably the first tabloid newspaper, but it was enjoying an

872
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 1: enormous early sales because it were it recognized that the

873
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,920
Speaker 1: Ripper investigation, or all the murders themselves were um generating huge,

874
00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,479
Speaker 1: huge sale as they were going out of their way

875
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: to um offer sensationalist headlines and reporting style. So it's

876
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 1: quite likely that the Dear Boss letter which first gave

877
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: the name Jack the Ripper, was written by a journalist

878
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: because obviously can imagine it would draw enormous readership, and

879
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 1: in fact Robert Anderson would write in his memoirs, who's

880
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 1: tempted to disclose the identity of the journalist? And Swanson

881
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: himself said who was known to all heads of c

882
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 1: I D. But although they came to realize the letter

883
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: as a hoax in the absence of any other clues

884
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 1: of facts, when he was published in the national press

885
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:41,600
Speaker 1: to see if the handwriting would be recognized, with the

886
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 1: inevitable result that hundreds of copycat letters were sent to

887
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: them Met and also the City of Police, all of

888
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: which had to be followed up and discounted, wasting valuable

889
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 1: police time and certainly Swanson. I'm sure these were that

890
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't categorically state it. I'm sure these letters were

891
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 1: sent to Swanson, a Scotland jarred along with all the

892
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: other documents, and so each day he'd have to go

893
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: through these hoax letters, which I'm sure they must have

894
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,319
Speaker 1: known at the time. But looking at pertinent points, is

895
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: there a name, use of address? Is there something that

896
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:17,160
Speaker 1: we can send a comfortable too to investigate? I mean,

897
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 1: that was probably one of the biggest mistakes that the

898
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 1: police made in the investigation, was publishing that letter, because

899
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: it just ended up wasting so many police hours and

900
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: directing um work that could should have been done on

901
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 1: a more direct basis. Mhm. You mentioned earlier that even

902
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: with Anderson gone, the c i D Was able to

903
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: put together a major police mobilization in White Chapel in October.

904
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 1: Would you describe that operation for us. This took place

905
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: on the third of October, couple of days after the

906
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: double event murder of Listoide and Cafronetto's um and I

907
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 1: do wonder whether the plan had been mooted before that.

908
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 1: Are they certainly to put it into place in the

909
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: furt of October and Whitechapple was flooded with police in

910
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: plain clothes and a house to house search was carried out.

911
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: And to give an idea of the scala that operation,

912
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 1: the police issued some eighty tho leaflets that the households

913
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: and lodging houses in the area appealing for information, and

914
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: in addition to the residents of the area, more than

915
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: two thousand people who were staying at the common lodging

916
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:27,359
Speaker 1: houses were questioned. An assistant commissioner of Robert Andison would

917
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: later write that during my absence abroad, the police made

918
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: the house to house search for the killer, investigating the

919
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: case of every man in the district whose circumstances were

920
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 1: such they could go and come and get rid of

921
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: his blood stains. In secret. Conclusion we came to was

922
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: that he and his people were certain low class Polish duties.

923
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 1: For it is a remarkable fact that people of that

924
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,040
Speaker 1: class in the East End will not give up one

925
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: of their number to gentile justice. So I think that

926
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: the they must have had a bit of an understanding

927
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 1: what they were looking for. Um. I think it stretches

928
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: the imagination that they would send um but not only

929
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: watch Apple police, but they drafted in officers from other

930
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: divisions to assist this UM, and they questioned every every household,

931
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: every resident, searched the rooms as as I said, they

932
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,319
Speaker 1: questioned all the lodgers they might. I find it's a

933
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: bit unusual that they would have just done that, not

934
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 1: knowing what to expect. They probably had a little bit

935
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: of an under an idea or a hope perhaps what

936
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 1: they might uncover. And it seems a calling to Anderson

937
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: UM that that that did that did come to pass.

938
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:42,440
Speaker 1: The eighties offered this police force that's doing all this

939
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 1: work trying to come up with evidence UM. Little by

940
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: way of the forensic techniques the detective use today. You

941
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 1: mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, what were some

942
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: of the the cutting edge techniques that were that were

943
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: new at the time that were considered in the course

944
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,440
Speaker 1: of collecting and analyzing evidence. White Chapel. I think this

945
00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: is this is probably one of the major problems that

946
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: the police had. There were virtually no forensics. They couldn't

947
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: tell the difference between human and animal blood let alone

948
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,480
Speaker 1: a blood type. UM. Obviously, the the idea of of

949
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: finger printing had been discovered, but it hadn't been a

950
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: wasn't adopted to the police. For not another fifteen years

951
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 1: after the White Chapel murders. So at this time there

952
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: was there was virtually no um evidence that could be

953
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: gleaned from clues um that sort of thing. I think

954
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,080
Speaker 1: the only clue, real clue that the police found in

955
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 1: the whole investigation was the portion of Cafineto's apron which

956
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: was found beneath the writing the war writing in Ghaalson Street. Um,

957
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: and that was found to match. That was a torn

958
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: off piece of open that's found to match the pie

959
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: she was wearing. And although that had blood stains and

960
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 1: fegle matter on, there was there was no way that

961
00:54:56,719 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: they could test those stains against anything else if that

962
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,880
Speaker 1: they might have found UM elsewhere in their search. So

963
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: the police were almost reliant on informers, identification parades, which

964
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 1: I'm sure we talked about later on, and that sort

965
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,439
Speaker 1: of thing, or almost sort of catching catching someone red

966
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: red handed. Um. It was. It was, you know, incredibly

967
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:25,680
Speaker 1: tricky to find some money in this respect. Um. Swanson

968
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 1: and his in his career up to this point had

969
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 1: conducted a couple of not quite not strictly legal, um

970
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: almost entrapment things where he had put put together a

971
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: scenario where a suspect would be confronted with with either

972
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: a witness or a victim of a crime um such

973
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 1: as a robbery, and then they'd identify him that way.

974
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 1: So there wasn't much they could do in terms of

975
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: forensic techniques. It was very sort of rude, rude, dementry,

976
00:55:58,120 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: and they were reliant on can Pessians identifications that sort

977
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 1: of thing. Mhm. What did the press and White Chapel

978
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 1: locals think about this police mobilization that flooded their their neighborhoods,

979
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: their streets, their homes with officers. I think it's quite

980
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: interesting that, you know, you could imagine that some of

981
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: the public, certainly the Jewish immigrant population, would have been

982
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 1: mistrusting of the police. You know, there was certainly locally

983
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:31,800
Speaker 1: there was a there was that sort of feeling typical

984
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: British Empire feeling. But couldn't have been an Englishman, it

985
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:37,919
Speaker 1: must have been must have been an immigrant who's done

986
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,720
Speaker 1: these horrible crimes. So you can understand that the Jewish

987
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: population would have been perhaps wary of the police, not

988
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 1: wanting to help, But in reality they were very supportive

989
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: and incorporated with the police, such to the agree that

990
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:57,799
Speaker 1: that Charles Warren later wrote an open letter in The

991
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: Times thanking the residents of Whitechapel for the good will

992
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 1: shown to the officers who obviously had to carry a delicate,

993
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 1: very delicate duty, but had to do the work um.

994
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 1: But that the public themselves were understanding of that they

995
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: need to do this work and seemed to be a

996
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: very very helpful in assisting the officers. And regarding the press,

997
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: you know, as as I said with the Star a

998
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:25,840
Speaker 1: moment ago, you know, they were looking for an angle

999
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:31,400
Speaker 1: that would selling newspaper um. And I think whenever they

1000
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 1: saw the police or the police appeared to be doing nothing,

1001
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: they'd be lambasted in the press and certain they didn't

1002
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: have a clue, and when something had come along that

1003
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: there might be a lead or some obvious activity by

1004
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 1: the police and they could report that because the readers,

1005
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 1: obviously we'd be looking for the catch off our latest

1006
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: of the of the police investigation and hunt for the killer.

1007
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: So the press, the press were actually supportive of the

1008
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: house to house search as well, whether that was their

1009
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 1: person opinion of whether as I said, it was more

1010
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,439
Speaker 1: a case to get get some juicy headlines and sell

1011
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 1: more copies. I think that's probably the case. You mentioned

1012
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: that if Swanson was known at all in the early

1013
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: years after the murders, it might have been from a

1014
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: few reports that he wrote. Would you describe the report

1015
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: that's once in filed with the Home Office on October? Yeah, Well,

1016
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 1: shortly after the house to house search, the Home Office

1017
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: demanded a report or an update on the ongoing investigation,

1018
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 1: and Assistant Commissioner Robert Anderson was annoyed at the timing

1019
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 1: of it of this request. Um. You know, he felt

1020
00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: he felt there was more important matters for Swanson and

1021
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: the opice officers to be attending to. But nevertheless, the

1022
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: report that Swanson wrote, dated the nineteenth of October, was

1023
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: obviously a prize the Home Office at the time, but

1024
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: but for US researchers, it's invaluable because it gives the

1025
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: clearest picture of the police investigation into the murders at

1026
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: that point, and Swanson details each of the murders going

1027
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: right back to Elizabeth Stride, Martharet Tabram, Um, Mary and

1028
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: Nichols and Annie Chapman, and as well as the police

1029
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 1: investigation at that point. Um and gave details of the

1030
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 1: house to house search we just heard about. Um. And

1031
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: Swanson writes the more than three hundred people were investigated

1032
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 1: as well as seventy six, which is and slaughter men

1033
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: and all the sailors who are on at that point

1034
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,560
Speaker 1: on board ships in the Thames or or at the

1035
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: various East End docs MHM. And he also mentions that

1036
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: a number of people were detained. Um something like a

1037
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: d I think, um, how many of those eighty who

1038
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: were detained were questioned thoroughly and how involved would Swanson

1039
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 1: have been in something like interrogations and those evidence gathering

1040
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,600
Speaker 1: conversations or was that done by other officers. Well, I

1041
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: think all eighty of these people that were detained would

1042
00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: have been questioned to some degree. You know, some were

1043
00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: easily dismissed, another's needed to be interrogated more closely. Um.

1044
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: In details of the suspects would have been held in

1045
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: the official suspect file a Scotland Yard, but that's been

1046
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: missing since the early nineteen seventies. Before the the Met

1047
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 1: Police file on the Whitechapel murders was open to the researchers,

1048
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: So we have no idea who conducted the actual interviews

1049
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: in the main but Swanson was based at Scotland Yard

1050
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:24,120
Speaker 1: and He wrote in that nineteenth of October report that

1051
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 1: the statements were taken at various stations around London, and

1052
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:30,440
Speaker 1: the vast majority of suspects obviously were local Whitechapel men,

1053
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: so it's likely that interviews were conducted by actually Innity

1054
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: detectives and apalne On circumbent there. It was only when

1055
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: James Sadler Thomas James Sadler was arrested for the murder

1056
01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 1: of Francis Coles in doing over certain that Swanson himself

1057
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: conducted an interview with a suspect. So there's there's a

1058
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: chance he may have been involved with some of those

1059
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 1: eighty or more interrogations, but the likelihood is that they

1060
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:00,520
Speaker 1: were conducted by local officers at the years pations where

1061
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: they were held. UM. Another document that is significant in

1062
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 1: the White Chapel case is the one that Charles Warren

1063
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 1: gets published in Murray's magazine in November the police of

1064
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,800
Speaker 1: the Metropolis. Um, what was the substance of that article,

1065
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 1: how was it received, what was the what was the

1066
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: fallout after that hit the public readership? Well, it's it's

1067
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 1: interesting because Warren's article in itself was homeless enough. It's

1068
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 1: just just been about police administration, didn't didn't give any

1069
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 1: uh secrets away or anything that, um may be deemed

1070
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: to make it a a horrific publication and it was

1071
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,640
Speaker 1: quite actually was well received by newspaper reviewers and commentators

1072
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:55,880
Speaker 1: at the time. Unsurprisingly, Warren ran foul of Home Secretary

1073
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,080
Speaker 1: Henry Matthews yet again, who wrote to remind Warren that

1074
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: it'd broken a rule that prohibited civil servants from publicly

1075
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,680
Speaker 1: discussing matters relating to their documents, and for Warren this

1076
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 1: is the final straw. He wrote on the eighth of

1077
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 1: November to Warren to Matthews rather resigning his post, and

1078
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 1: said that if we had known there was a there

1079
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:19,919
Speaker 1: was a a policy that he couldn't write, couldn't write

1080
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 1: anything about his his job, then he wouldn't have taken

1081
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 1: the position in the first place. Um. But I'm pretty

1082
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: sure it was just a case of matt and Matthews

1083
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:36,600
Speaker 1: having another chance to need or Warren and incident niem warrant.

1084
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 1: Warren resigned on the eighth of November, which was coincidentally

1085
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 1: Mary Kelly's last day. She was murdered in the early

1086
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:47,200
Speaker 1: hours of the ninth of November, and when news of

1087
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: Warren's resignation broke on the day of the inquest into

1088
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,680
Speaker 1: Mellie Kelly's murder. The two have been been linked, and

1089
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: to some they still are linked. Warren resigned um because

1090
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: of Kelly Kelly's murder um and in fact, just two

1091
01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 1: weeks later Warren's replacement was announced. It was his old

1092
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 1: his old nemesis, James Monroe uh an interest in me.

1093
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 1: They respected newspaper that Saint James Gazette commented on Matthew's

1094
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 1: use of the legislation, saying advantage was taken off. This

1095
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: is an incident to lead Sir Charles into what looks

1096
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 1: rather like a trap. So I think that's probably exactly

1097
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 1: what happened there. Mhm hm. At the end of October,

1098
01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 1: so just before we get to that point, Robert Anderson

1099
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 1: had asked Dr Thomas Bond to examine the medical evidence

1100
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: of the murders. To that point, um, why was doctor

1101
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 1: Bond of trusted observer and what did he conclude in

1102
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: the report that came out a few days after Warren's resignation.

1103
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: Each met Police division had one doctor who was appointed

1104
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 1: not only to look after the welfare of their police

1105
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: officers in that division, but also assisted when medical opinion

1106
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 1: was needed in cases of murder or suspicious death, and

1107
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 1: the division was surgeon in White Chapels Dr George Baxter Phillips,

1108
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 1: who appeared at various inquests giving medical evidence, and Dr

1109
01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,120
Speaker 1: Thomas Bond was a divisional surgeon attached to a division

1110
01:04:09,160 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 1: of Scotland Chard and so in such he was not

1111
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: directly involved in the White Shable cases, as he's been

1112
01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 1: involved in so many howe profile cases since being appointed

1113
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty seven. Um Anderson asked Bond on the

1114
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 1: October to examine the inquest reports on the four victims

1115
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 1: from Mary Anne Nichols to Kafreinetto's, but before he could

1116
01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 1: do so, Mary Kelly was murdered and Bond was able

1117
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 1: to conduct a post mortem himself, adding it to the

1118
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 1: inquest reports on the earlier victims, and in his report,

1119
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 1: dated the tenth of November one concluded that all five

1120
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:46,560
Speaker 1: had been killed by the same hand, the fruit cut

1121
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:49,480
Speaker 1: from left to right in the first attack while the

1122
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:53,400
Speaker 1: women were lying down. The mutilations were carried out after death,

1123
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 1: and he believed a murderer did not have an anatomical knowledge,

1124
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 1: not even to the degree of the butcher. He said

1125
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: the knife was that commit carried out the mutilations, was

1126
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: at least six in years long, with a sharp point,

1127
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 1: such as a butcher's or surgeon's knife. Mhm. There's an

1128
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 1: interesting bit of background two to this because at the

1129
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 1: beginning of the year, at the beginning of there's some

1130
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 1: friction between Warren and Bond. Can you talk about Charles

1131
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 1: Warren's effort to push Bond out of police service at

1132
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,920
Speaker 1: the beginning of the year. I think as this is

1133
01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:35,760
Speaker 1: a very interesting little little backstory that perfectly illustrates when

1134
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:37,800
Speaker 1: I was talking about right at the start about context.

1135
01:05:38,840 --> 01:05:40,720
Speaker 1: Because when I was doing the research for the book,

1136
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 1: I i I was looking for some information about divisional surgeons. Um,

1137
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:47,919
Speaker 1: there's salaries, how long they've been appointed, that sort of thing.

1138
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 1: So there's a far at the National Archives which is

1139
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: titled Divisional Searchers Divisional Surgeons. I thought that sounds perfect

1140
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,360
Speaker 1: for what I'm looking for for for the book, and

1141
01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 1: when I ready, it was this series of correspondence between

1142
01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 1: Warren and Bond and the chief surgeon at Scotland Yard,

1143
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: Alexander mckella UM. And it's it's completely bizarre and and

1144
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: it just gives this complete background makes perfect sense for

1145
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 1: why um Anderson asked On to the character as report,

1146
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 1: which didn't seem to make any sense before. But the

1147
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 1: story was that, as always with Warren, he was looking

1148
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 1: to make changes to the met to make it more

1149
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 1: efficient and as the majority of the detectives lived away

1150
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 1: from Scotland Yard in l Division, which was south of

1151
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 1: the Thames, where the new recruits were also based, as

1152
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 1: they did their training in early he moved their care

1153
01:06:43,120 --> 01:06:46,600
Speaker 1: to the divisional surgeons there, Dr George Farr. When On

1154
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:50,000
Speaker 1: discovered this, he complained, but he obviously had had no

1155
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 1: choice Um and he resigned as a medical officer. Attached

1156
01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: the Detective Department and the Commissioner's office on the fourth

1157
01:06:56,280 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 1: of October, and took the opportunity to confirm it preferred

1158
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: to be engaged on cases, but medico legal expertise who

1159
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:07,840
Speaker 1: was needed, and this is what prompted Anderson to give

1160
01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: Bond to prepare his report. Would you describe a previous

1161
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 1: case or two that were settled for the police by

1162
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 1: examinations and reports from Dr Band in the years before

1163
01:07:19,240 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: you mentioned he's attached to Scotland Yard and he's been

1164
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 1: such a helpful surgeon for them in the past. What

1165
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 1: were some of the cases that cemented his reputation in

1166
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 1: the years before that? Well, the one which springs to

1167
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 1: mind for obvious reasons for for me is in eight

1168
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 1: one where he was called down to Brighton from Scotland

1169
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 1: jar which is probably the furthest he could get out

1170
01:07:41,720 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 1: of his jurisdiction. He was called down to Brant to

1171
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 1: examine the body of a man found on the tracks

1172
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 1: in a railway arch and it was not initially clear

1173
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,280
Speaker 1: with the cause of death was that he had been

1174
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 1: hit by a train or falling from a carriage, but

1175
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: bomb established at the man Mr Frederick Gold had been

1176
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:00,400
Speaker 1: attacked on board the train and from from the carriage

1177
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:03,400
Speaker 1: as it passed through the tunnel. Ironically, it was Donald

1178
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:08,400
Speaker 1: Swanson who arrested the killer person, Floyd Mapleton. So that

1179
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 1: was an example where um not not to say that

1180
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:17,680
Speaker 1: the local doctors or the local medical officials in the

1181
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: Sussex Um jurisdiction where that where the body was found. Interestingly,

1182
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 1: in that case Um when Baxter was the carrener core

1183
01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:29,200
Speaker 1: at the time at the Sussex and he conducted the

1184
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:33,120
Speaker 1: inquest into victim and eventual murderer. But that's not to

1185
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 1: say that those local doctors wouldn't have come to the

1186
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:39,320
Speaker 1: same conclusion. But but there was a chance that you know,

1187
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: they may they may have concluded that it was m

1188
01:08:44,000 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 1: misadventure or or accidental deaf hit by the train and

1189
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 1: that would have been the end of that and la

1190
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:54,280
Speaker 1: Froid Mapleton would have completely avoided being arrested and executed

1191
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:58,679
Speaker 1: as he did. But um Bond, Bond was the Scotland

1192
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:05,559
Speaker 1: yard specially who found the cause of death, the various

1193
01:09:05,840 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 1: wounds on the body that could only been caused by

1194
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 1: an attack um within the carriage. So yeah, that that

1195
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 1: was That was one case which it was quite interesting

1196
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 1: because as a Bond worked with Swanson and win Back Star.

1197
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 1: This was seven years before the Ripper investigation. So what

1198
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:27,759
Speaker 1: was the significance when Bond writes that report you described earlier,

1199
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 1: the sharp knife that cuts on the throat um, pulling

1200
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:36,680
Speaker 1: together all that medical evidence and and processing it for

1201
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:41,839
Speaker 1: Robert Anderson, What was the significance of that report following

1202
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 1: its release? Well, Bond suggested to the murderer was probably

1203
01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:51,240
Speaker 1: a middle aged man, quite an inoffensive looking and respectively dressed.

1204
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 1: He said he had extendic eccentric tendencies and probably lived

1205
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 1: among people who knew of his character and had suspicions,

1206
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 1: but who would probably be willing to communicate these suspicions

1207
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 1: to the police. And then the mutilations indicated that the

1208
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:11,160
Speaker 1: killer was driven bisexual impulse. And this this report is

1209
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:14,120
Speaker 1: generally accepted as the first attempt at a profile of

1210
01:10:14,120 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 1: a serial killer. But it's interesting that if he hadn't

1211
01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:20,280
Speaker 1: been for Charles Warren's insistence earlier the year that wand

1212
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:23,920
Speaker 1: relinquished his workload uh As Scotlan Yard, he might not

1213
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,479
Speaker 1: have been asked to rewrite that report in the first place.

1214
01:10:26,960 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 1: So it's it's an interesting report in an important report

1215
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:34,080
Speaker 1: in terms of it gave the police, perhaps for the

1216
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:37,759
Speaker 1: first time, an idea of the sword of man they

1217
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: should be looking for, rather than the simple conclusion that

1218
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 1: yet it was someone with a knife who had um

1219
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 1: some medical knowledge, which when Dr Bagster Phillips was given

1220
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:55,280
Speaker 1: his inquest testimony in the earlier cases didn't give. He

1221
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:59,720
Speaker 1: gave no further clues as to the type of man

1222
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:02,400
Speaker 1: the killer was or any idea of his personality. So

1223
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 1: it was really important for in terms of not only

1224
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,519
Speaker 1: in terms of criminal history, but also in terms of

1225
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,960
Speaker 1: the investigation, that the police finally had an idea of

1226
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 1: the man they were looking for. And I think when

1227
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 1: we get further down in the discussion, we'll be talking

1228
01:11:18,920 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 1: about Anderson's suspects and description of what happened to him,

1229
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 1: we can see that that probably came from this, This

1230
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: description by bonders to the sort of man at the

1231
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:35,120
Speaker 1: killer was mm hmm. Do you think it was more

1232
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:41,919
Speaker 1: helpful to have Baxter Phillips's reticence or to have bonds

1233
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 1: speculative conclusions? Um? Do you mean do you mean for

1234
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:51,720
Speaker 1: for us as researchers or for the police at the time. Well,

1235
01:11:51,720 --> 01:11:54,479
Speaker 1: I'm thinking more of the police and the time. Uh,

1236
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:57,479
Speaker 1: you know, is it better to have a cleans later

1237
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,760
Speaker 1: to have, you know, something specular and like what Bond

1238
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 1: puts forward. I think that that this at this point,

1239
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 1: it's probably a case of how the investigation had proceeded,

1240
01:12:10,439 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 1: because if if Bond had for instances been looking at

1241
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 1: the reports, if he'd have been the one which had

1242
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,720
Speaker 1: conducted the post mortem and for the first inquest and

1243
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 1: given this information, Um, I don't know if the police

1244
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 1: would have accepted it as readily as they did later

1245
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 1: on backs to Phillips, certainly we've been reticent, as you say,

1246
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: we've describing the injuries at the at the inquest that

1247
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 1: that certainly wasn't the case. You know, he gave that

1248
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,519
Speaker 1: information freely to the to the police, and he was

1249
01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:42,559
Speaker 1: trying to keep it out of the out of the newspapers, really.

1250
01:12:43,160 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 1: But I don't know whether in those early days if

1251
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 1: bags to Phillips would have even formed an opinion as

1252
01:12:51,000 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 1: to the type of killer. I don't know whether he

1253
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:56,400
Speaker 1: had that sort of approach that that bonded um. I

1254
01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:58,519
Speaker 1: think initially the police were sort of quite happy with

1255
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:01,720
Speaker 1: what bags To Phillips had had told them, and this,

1256
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:04,840
Speaker 1: you know, this is this, this is the sort of

1257
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 1: this is the sort of mutilations that have taken place

1258
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:11,599
Speaker 1: or been inflicted. The police probably fought in those early

1259
01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 1: days that they were going to quiet quite easily catch

1260
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:18,479
Speaker 1: the killer. And it's interesting that the terminology of of

1261
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:22,719
Speaker 1: that Warren gave in that memo pointing Swanson, he's referring

1262
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: to the murder of any Chapman. And he doesn't say

1263
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:29,519
Speaker 1: I'm appointing Swanson for the duration of these series of murders.

1264
01:13:29,800 --> 01:13:34,040
Speaker 1: He points Swanson for that one particular murder, and to

1265
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 1: take obviously in cittu the previous cases, and Swanson really

1266
01:13:40,120 --> 01:13:43,680
Speaker 1: carried on in that position as the the murders of

1267
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,320
Speaker 1: Lis Stride and Katharinetto's and Mary Kelly happened, and subsequently

1268
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 1: later years Alice McKenzie, Francis Coles. Swanson stayed in that position.

1269
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 1: But I don't believe that Warren or any of the

1270
01:13:55,960 --> 01:13:59,799
Speaker 1: other police expected there may be more. Um they probably,

1271
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,400
Speaker 1: you know, we we we can solve this with the

1272
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 1: tools that we have medical information from backs to Phillips,

1273
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 1: but certainly by the end of October and they had

1274
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:12,320
Speaker 1: no further information apart from what they may have uncovered

1275
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:14,559
Speaker 1: at the house to house at the start of the month.

1276
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 1: I think they were they were very grateful for Bond

1277
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:19,519
Speaker 1: given them this sort of information. Of course, it may

1278
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:22,559
Speaker 1: have turned out to be completely away of them, way

1279
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 1: off the mark, and not for helpful at all, but

1280
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 1: I think they were looking for help, any helpful guidance

1281
01:14:29,400 --> 01:14:32,719
Speaker 1: they could have received at that point. So let's step

1282
01:14:32,920 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 1: a little further forward in time, considering other people who

1283
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,560
Speaker 1: attempted to put together the massive evidence and come to

1284
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:46,040
Speaker 1: some kind of official conclusion about it. Um, let's go

1285
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 1: to melvill Micknaton. Who was Melvilla mcnatin and what role

1286
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:54,000
Speaker 1: did he have in the investigation or looking at the

1287
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:58,800
Speaker 1: looking at the results of the investigation. Well, mc noordan

1288
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:01,840
Speaker 1: was was a friend of Names Monroe, who ran his

1289
01:15:02,280 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: family's tea plantation in India, and they had met when

1290
01:15:05,080 --> 01:15:07,880
Speaker 1: Monroe was a district judge there. He first attempted to

1291
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 1: get McNaughton into the met when Superintendent Frederick Williamson was ill,

1292
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:15,920
Speaker 1: but Warren blocked blocked that move and this was the

1293
01:15:16,000 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 1: reason why Monroe resigned as assistant Commissioner Robert Anderson put

1294
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:23,400
Speaker 1: in put in his place. Things changed, of course, when

1295
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:28,040
Speaker 1: Warren resigned at the end of Monroe became commissioner. Mcnorton

1296
01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:32,400
Speaker 1: was appointed Assistant Chief Constable support in Williamson in June

1297
01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 1: and replaced him in December ninety when Williamson died. So

1298
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:41,519
Speaker 1: they had the three friends together there, Anderson, Monroe and

1299
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:45,560
Speaker 1: mc norton. Um But although he wasn't around at the

1300
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:51,200
Speaker 1: time of the reper investigation of McNaughton, was quite actively

1301
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:54,280
Speaker 1: involved in inquiries into subsequent murders in White Chapel such

1302
01:15:54,280 --> 01:15:57,960
Speaker 1: as Alice McKenzie and Francis Coles. UM and in his

1303
01:15:58,040 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 1: auto biography, which is completely exaggerated, he's rolling everything to

1304
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 1: be honest, UM, but he puts himself in the center

1305
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:09,880
Speaker 1: of things quite quite heavily there. But he he I

1306
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:12,040
Speaker 1: think it seems to be that he was frustrated on

1307
01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:15,560
Speaker 1: the outside UM in eight wanting to be part of

1308
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 1: the investigation. But UM certainly certainly took to and big

1309
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:25,000
Speaker 1: involvemently things after his appointment. But he's probably better known

1310
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,439
Speaker 1: in the case for his eight nine four memorandum in

1311
01:16:27,439 --> 01:16:31,479
Speaker 1: which he names the free suspects M. Yeah. And it's

1312
01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 1: since for for investigators and historians and and those of

1313
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 1: us who are looking back at the case. His member

1314
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 1: and his memorandum has at times been an influential document

1315
01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:46,760
Speaker 1: for understanding uh, as you say, the police perspective, UM,

1316
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:49,560
Speaker 1: how was it received when it was first written, and

1317
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:52,759
Speaker 1: how much significance did it have, especially before those police

1318
01:16:52,800 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 1: files were open in the seventies. Um mcnorton wrote his

1319
01:16:57,240 --> 01:17:01,760
Speaker 1: memorandum as a result of some newspaper we've sporting an exclusive.

1320
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:04,240
Speaker 1: A man named Thomas cut Bush was Jack the ripper

1321
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:07,720
Speaker 1: that found him in a lunatic asylum UM. And the

1322
01:17:07,760 --> 01:17:10,439
Speaker 1: memorandum actually was never published, but it was it was

1323
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:13,639
Speaker 1: probably prepared for internal use should there have been inquiries

1324
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:16,960
Speaker 1: a result of the Sun's claims. So there's no record

1325
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:20,400
Speaker 1: of the memorandum until it was discovered by author Robin

1326
01:17:20,439 --> 01:17:23,680
Speaker 1: O'Dell in the mid nineties sixties, misfiled in a in

1327
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 1: a box at the Public Record Office. So that that's

1328
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:30,960
Speaker 1: the official version, UM. But there's so that's dated February.

1329
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,960
Speaker 1: But there's there's a version which we call the Aberconway version.

1330
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:39,439
Speaker 1: It seems to be a draft written by mcnorton Morley

1331
01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 1: is preparing this official report, and that that was retained

1332
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:46,400
Speaker 1: in the family, the McNaughton family, and made its way

1333
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 1: down to his daughter Christo Bell aber Conway, and I

1334
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:54,200
Speaker 1: think it was a late eighteen nineteen fifties. Rather the

1335
01:17:55,920 --> 01:18:00,200
Speaker 1: British television presenter and Ripper or for Daniel Farr soon

1336
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 1: was doing some research for television program and his friends said, well,

1337
01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:08,760
Speaker 1: would you like to meet my my mother who has

1338
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:13,880
Speaker 1: um the document written by her father, Melvin mc norton,

1339
01:18:13,920 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 1: which names free free of the chapter Ripper suspects. You

1340
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:20,200
Speaker 1: can you mention Daniel Fasson was delighted to have the

1341
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:23,479
Speaker 1: opportunity to read this, and this is where three names

1342
01:18:23,560 --> 01:18:29,080
Speaker 1: first came along. But um, Lady Abbert Conway gave fast

1343
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:34,840
Speaker 1: and permission to mention the discovery of this abercamay versions

1344
01:18:34,840 --> 01:18:36,519
Speaker 1: along the condition that he didn't reveal any of the

1345
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:39,160
Speaker 1: names because she felt that there may still be relatives

1346
01:18:39,240 --> 01:18:42,320
Speaker 1: or descendants of those three men that was still alive.

1347
01:18:42,439 --> 01:18:46,360
Speaker 1: And and maybe you know, take take offense, but it

1348
01:18:46,439 --> 01:18:49,400
Speaker 1: turned up the three names were drew It, who fastened

1349
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 1: put forward as the number one suspect um Um. Yeah,

1350
01:18:56,960 --> 01:19:01,519
Speaker 1: because Minski, which is interesting because that obviously parts the

1351
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:05,240
Speaker 1: name that Swanson Kate came up with. And Michael Ostrog

1352
01:19:05,479 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: who subsequent researchers have found that was a petty criminal,

1353
01:19:10,880 --> 01:19:14,160
Speaker 1: not violent at all, although McNaughton described him as such

1354
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:18,400
Speaker 1: in the memorandum and we're sort of managed to discount him. Um.

1355
01:19:19,280 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: But what I find interesting about the mc norton report

1356
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:25,519
Speaker 1: is that he names the same five victims as the

1357
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:31,240
Speaker 1: genuine Ripper Ripper victims as Thomas bonded his report. Um.

1358
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:34,040
Speaker 1: And this is where we get the so called canonical

1359
01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:38,200
Speaker 1: five victims from Marianne Nichols through to Mary Kelly and

1360
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 1: the victims before these five and after as a genuine

1361
01:19:42,520 --> 01:19:46,559
Speaker 1: regarded as probably not by the ripper. But that's certainly

1362
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 1: changed in certainly in the case of Martha Tabram. But

1363
01:19:49,720 --> 01:19:54,080
Speaker 1: what's interesting about that is that I discovered during my

1364
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:59,080
Speaker 1: research for the book that Bonds report was missing. When UM,

1365
01:20:01,760 --> 01:20:04,880
Speaker 1: a Swiss doctor wrote to the met asking for a report,

1366
01:20:04,920 --> 01:20:08,160
Speaker 1: they couldn't be found at this time. And this sort

1367
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 1: of coincides within the within two months of when McNaughton

1368
01:20:11,439 --> 01:20:13,760
Speaker 1: writer's report. So I just have a what, I just

1369
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:16,680
Speaker 1: have a feeling that perhaps mcnaton lifted that file from

1370
01:20:16,720 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 1: the report um, from the official files to write his

1371
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:24,599
Speaker 1: report and then put it back and put it back

1372
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:30,160
Speaker 1: at a later date. UM. So yes, So that really

1373
01:20:30,320 --> 01:20:34,640
Speaker 1: was was in. That was probably the first document that

1374
01:20:34,800 --> 01:20:40,040
Speaker 1: names a suspect before the official Suspects file was accessed

1375
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:44,599
Speaker 1: in the early nineteen seventies. Mhm M. Would you describe

1376
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:48,360
Speaker 1: for us the arc of Donald Swanson's career in the

1377
01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:54,200
Speaker 1: years after. In earlier that year, Swanson had been appointing

1378
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:58,360
Speaker 1: Chief Inspector on a temporary basis, and that's almost a

1379
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:01,720
Speaker 1: probationary peer. It but it meant he was one of

1380
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:04,599
Speaker 1: the top six detectives at Scotland Yard. He was made

1381
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:09,120
Speaker 1: Chief Inspector permanent later at the beginning of eighteen nine.

1382
01:21:09,640 --> 01:21:12,600
Speaker 1: And you've promoted a superintendent of the c i D

1383
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:15,599
Speaker 1: at Scotland Yard affect There's the highest position he could

1384
01:21:16,040 --> 01:21:19,519
Speaker 1: he could attain um and it's effectively the top detective

1385
01:21:19,600 --> 01:21:23,000
Speaker 1: in the country. His reporting directly to the Assistant Commissioner

1386
01:21:23,080 --> 01:21:26,240
Speaker 1: Anderson and then his replacement, Edward Henry, who was the

1387
01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:31,880
Speaker 1: man that poke fingerprinting into the met Swanson retired fifty

1388
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:34,400
Speaker 1: five and I do think that if the rules have

1389
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:37,000
Speaker 1: been different at that time, he might have achieved further

1390
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:42,600
Speaker 1: promotions to Assistant Commissioner and possibly commissioner itself. Mhm m.

1391
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:48,880
Speaker 1: Thinking about another major case that Swinson was involved in,

1392
01:21:49,280 --> 01:21:51,919
Speaker 1: would you describe the arrest and trial of Leander Jamieson

1393
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:55,400
Speaker 1: and the role that Donald Swason played in those proceedings.

1394
01:21:56,439 --> 01:22:00,880
Speaker 1: The Jameson Raid, as it was known, was was very

1395
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 1: high profile diplomatic issue. Swanson was was very proud of

1396
01:22:07,080 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 1: his he's role in that bringing Jameson and the raiders

1397
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:13,240
Speaker 1: to justice. I've described that in a moment that I

1398
01:22:13,360 --> 01:22:17,360
Speaker 1: know that Donald's grandson Jim always made special point that

1399
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:22,280
Speaker 1: this was an international diplomatic situation that his grandfather had

1400
01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:27,080
Speaker 1: been involved in UM bringing bringing to a conclusion, But

1401
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:30,599
Speaker 1: basically it was. It was later part of his career,

1402
01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 1: but it was a good example of cooperation between multiple

1403
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:40,880
Speaker 1: police forces and overseas extradition. Basically in Diamond Magnet and

1404
01:22:41,000 --> 01:22:46,719
Speaker 1: British nationalists Acessil. Rhodes, who had been basically annexing large

1405
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:50,920
Speaker 1: areas of South Africa UM had his eye on on

1406
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:54,200
Speaker 1: the South African Republic, which is a large independent country

1407
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:57,719
Speaker 1: UM formerly known as a Transfile and it was governed

1408
01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 1: by the President Paul Krueger. Large quantities of gold have

1409
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 1: been discovered in which thousands, which caused thousands of many

1410
01:23:04,680 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: British immigrants called Outlanders, who were tolerated by Kruger thanks

1411
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:11,800
Speaker 1: to the taxes they had to pay on any goal

1412
01:23:11,920 --> 01:23:16,080
Speaker 1: that they uncovered. But Rhodes was envious and wanted this land,

1413
01:23:16,120 --> 01:23:19,880
Speaker 1: and he devised the plan whereby arms and money would

1414
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:22,439
Speaker 1: be provided to the outlanders in order to provoke an

1415
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:26,560
Speaker 1: armed uprising by these settlers, with the result of the

1416
01:23:26,640 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 1: overthrowing of the South African Republic government and an armed

1417
01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:33,720
Speaker 1: force of around seven hundred men under control of Dr

1418
01:23:33,840 --> 01:23:37,240
Speaker 1: Leander Jameson was to be placed on the Transfile border,

1419
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:40,920
Speaker 1: ready to assist and support this insurrection. But things went

1420
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:45,719
Speaker 1: badly wrong because Jameson badly ignored ignored orders to retreat

1421
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:48,000
Speaker 1: and the result was that more than four hundred of

1422
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:51,479
Speaker 1: his men were captured. President Kruger arranged for the prisoners

1423
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:54,760
Speaker 1: to be transported to Britain and the rank and file

1424
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:57,639
Speaker 1: men were packed onto the steamer called the Harlett Castle

1425
01:23:58,000 --> 01:24:01,400
Speaker 1: and then we met at Madeira by Scotland Odds Inspector

1426
01:24:01,439 --> 01:24:05,960
Speaker 1: Frank Frost, who was the officer that Swanson acted as

1427
01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 1: a mentor too, in the same way that Williamson had

1428
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:11,320
Speaker 1: done to him. Frank Frost would eventually become superintendent. Actually

1429
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:17,599
Speaker 1: after Swanson um Frost, Frost met the ship at Madeira

1430
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:19,400
Speaker 1: and took the details and more than two hundred men

1431
01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:23,080
Speaker 1: before the boat resumed its voyage to Plymouth. And waiting

1432
01:24:23,160 --> 01:24:25,280
Speaker 1: for them there was Chief Inspector Swanson who took a

1433
01:24:25,400 --> 01:24:28,840
Speaker 1: roll call of all the men and bordered the train

1434
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:31,280
Speaker 1: with Frost and the troops. And when they arrived at

1435
01:24:31,320 --> 01:24:33,360
Speaker 1: London they were met by officers of the local elect

1436
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:38,000
Speaker 1: f Division new Mont to Donward journey. Jameson himself and

1437
01:24:38,040 --> 01:24:40,800
Speaker 1: the fellow officers arrived in London three days later, and

1438
01:24:40,840 --> 01:24:43,320
Speaker 1: they were met there by Swanson who took them into

1439
01:24:43,439 --> 01:24:46,400
Speaker 1: his custody, and they knocked at Waterloo Pierre and then

1440
01:24:46,479 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 1: taken to Bow Street Magistrates Court, where they brought up

1441
01:24:48,880 --> 01:24:52,839
Speaker 1: by Swanson and charged with engaging an unlawful military expedition

1442
01:24:52,880 --> 01:24:56,640
Speaker 1: against her first South African Republic. The thirteen prisoners were

1443
01:24:56,680 --> 01:24:59,759
Speaker 1: eventually tried a month later and found guilty, Jameson receiving

1444
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:03,480
Speaker 1: the month's imprisonment and the others short slightly shorter sentences.

1445
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:08,360
Speaker 1: The ramifications of the failed road were potentially disastrous because

1446
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:10,400
Speaker 1: tensions between the British and the Dutch, who owned the

1447
01:25:10,439 --> 01:25:14,400
Speaker 1: transfile similar for several years, culminated in the Second Boer War,

1448
01:25:17,720 --> 01:25:20,880
Speaker 1: and this animosity was exploited by Carls of Vilholmers second,

1449
01:25:21,040 --> 01:25:24,320
Speaker 1: who wrote to the President Krueger offering support. When the

1450
01:25:24,400 --> 01:25:27,640
Speaker 1: contents of this telegram was reported in British newspapers, the

1451
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:30,519
Speaker 1: action was one of outrage in relations between Germany and

1452
01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 1: Britain deteriorated, although Vilhelmer's second later wrote to his grandmother

1453
01:25:36,120 --> 01:25:38,639
Speaker 1: Queen Victoria, denying that his words were meant to stir

1454
01:25:38,760 --> 01:25:41,360
Speaker 1: real feeling against the country. The incident was a big

1455
01:25:41,439 --> 01:25:44,200
Speaker 1: enough friction between the two countries, which culminated in the

1456
01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:48,519
Speaker 1: First World War. So you mentioned earlier that we also

1457
01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:53,720
Speaker 1: have the Swanson marginalia to discuss. Um. Can you describe

1458
01:25:55,479 --> 01:25:58,600
Speaker 1: what this was and how it fits in with a

1459
01:25:58,680 --> 01:26:04,120
Speaker 1: pattern of Donald Swanson, How Donald Swantson read material and

1460
01:26:04,760 --> 01:26:08,720
Speaker 1: and expressed his starts, and then maybe how that marginalia

1461
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:14,519
Speaker 1: itself became public. Donald Swanson died in four and all

1462
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:18,559
Speaker 1: the papers and documents and possessions passed to his widow Julia.

1463
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:21,640
Speaker 1: It's quite interesting that it became clear when I was

1464
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 1: looking through the um so I having documentation there wasn't

1465
01:26:25,320 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 1: an official bequest in a will or anything of any

1466
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:31,800
Speaker 1: named items. The possessions literally just passed to the next

1467
01:26:31,840 --> 01:26:36,920
Speaker 1: of Ken and Julia. Julia in turn passed away UM

1468
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:40,320
Speaker 1: and the couple's daughters Ada and Alice inherited the possessions

1469
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:43,280
Speaker 1: and took them out of London to a cottage where

1470
01:26:43,280 --> 01:26:47,680
Speaker 1: they lived together for the next forty years. Um In

1471
01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:52,560
Speaker 1: this um pile of documents was a small library of

1472
01:26:53,040 --> 01:26:57,760
Speaker 1: crime books that Donald had had collected UM and it

1473
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:00,519
Speaker 1: was it was this this this part of books that

1474
01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:05,280
Speaker 1: Donald's grandson, Jim Swanson, who was the nephew of the

1475
01:27:06,040 --> 01:27:11,960
Speaker 1: Voda analysts, UM, he basically inherited those books when Alice

1476
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:15,080
Speaker 1: died in so this this is more than fifty years

1477
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:18,400
Speaker 1: after Donald died. UM Jim cleared out of the house

1478
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:20,800
Speaker 1: for it to be sold and moved into his own home.

1479
01:27:21,360 --> 01:27:22,880
Speaker 1: And when he was looking through the books, because I

1480
01:27:22,880 --> 01:27:26,000
Speaker 1: had an interest in in his grandfather's criminal career or

1481
01:27:26,120 --> 01:27:32,360
Speaker 1: police career, I should say from the found a number

1482
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:37,400
Speaker 1: of annotations in in several books. Actually, people tend to

1483
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:40,360
Speaker 1: think that the Swantson Marginalia was the only incidents of

1484
01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:45,120
Speaker 1: Donald Swantson write any thought, his thoughts or corrections. And

1485
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:47,840
Speaker 1: some people have said, well, that's a bit strange. Why

1486
01:27:47,880 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 1: would you specifically only comment on that particular case. But

1487
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:55,360
Speaker 1: it's not, it's not. It's not the case. There were

1488
01:27:55,479 --> 01:28:02,439
Speaker 1: several um examples of we'll call Swanson marginalia UM. But

1489
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:06,360
Speaker 1: it was in M. Robert Anderson's autobiography The Light Aside

1490
01:28:06,400 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 1: of My Official Life, in which he talks about Jack

1491
01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:15,519
Speaker 1: the Ripper, Polish juice suspect Um that has some quite

1492
01:28:15,600 --> 01:28:20,439
Speaker 1: revealing annotations, and because Jim was so proud of his

1493
01:28:20,520 --> 01:28:22,960
Speaker 1: grandfather's work. He was He was twelve when Donald died,

1494
01:28:22,960 --> 01:28:26,040
Speaker 1: so he knew him quite well and and always said

1495
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:29,439
Speaker 1: that right up till he's death at the age of

1496
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:33,040
Speaker 1: seventy six, Donald retained your these mental faculties. He's mind

1497
01:28:33,120 --> 01:28:35,519
Speaker 1: was a shop as a rapier. The one thing he

1498
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:39,439
Speaker 1: did have was was a hand tremor um, which you

1499
01:28:39,479 --> 01:28:42,639
Speaker 1: know obviously he's like a thing which happens to quite

1500
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:44,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people as they getting into this into

1501
01:28:44,040 --> 01:28:46,840
Speaker 1: their older age. But Jim decided he wanted to try

1502
01:28:46,880 --> 01:28:51,320
Speaker 1: and get some recognition for his grandfather's career, and a

1503
01:28:51,400 --> 01:28:53,519
Speaker 1: few months after discovering the margin earlier, he wrote to

1504
01:28:53,600 --> 01:28:56,360
Speaker 1: the Sunday newspaper The News of the World, offering the

1505
01:28:56,439 --> 01:29:00,639
Speaker 1: information in the margin alia. And then his papers sent

1506
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:05,080
Speaker 1: their chief crime reporter, Charles Sandel, to interview Jim m

1507
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:09,599
Speaker 1: and we we did find um research and then keep

1508
01:29:09,640 --> 01:29:15,360
Speaker 1: Skinner found a draft of this of this unused article,

1509
01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:17,880
Speaker 1: as it turned out by Sandel, in the files of

1510
01:29:18,000 --> 01:29:21,360
Speaker 1: the Crime Museum at Scotland Yard. So although there was

1511
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:24,240
Speaker 1: a there was an article written, it didn't appear, and

1512
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:26,680
Speaker 1: again we don't we don't really know why, but we

1513
01:29:26,880 --> 01:29:29,280
Speaker 1: we can surmise that it was a time where the

1514
01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:33,240
Speaker 1: Yorkshire Ripper trial was happening, so that that obviously ran

1515
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:36,280
Speaker 1: in in the British press quite heavily. It was leading

1516
01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,040
Speaker 1: to the marriage of Prince Charles and Lady Diana, that

1517
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:42,360
Speaker 1: took up a lot of column inches. So looking at

1518
01:29:42,560 --> 01:29:47,000
Speaker 1: the unused report story by Sandel, it just appears he

1519
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:50,559
Speaker 1: couldn't find enough on the suspect to make it work

1520
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:54,120
Speaker 1: into a story. So it wasn't really until the centenary

1521
01:29:54,160 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: of the Ripper murders were approaching. But in October night

1522
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:02,200
Speaker 1: eight seven, Jim contacted a different news both of their

1523
01:30:02,240 --> 01:30:05,240
Speaker 1: Daily Telegraph and the story was finally published and it

1524
01:30:05,320 --> 01:30:08,840
Speaker 1: revealed the sense of the marginalia two Ripper researchers and

1525
01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:13,800
Speaker 1: the world more widely. Would you describe the marginali and

1526
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:16,679
Speaker 1: a little more detail and how it influenced thinking about

1527
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:19,519
Speaker 1: the reper murder sense since the centenary? What was the

1528
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:23,800
Speaker 1: process for determining maybe that the marginalia was was genuine

1529
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:27,760
Speaker 1: and how seriously it should be taken? Um I can

1530
01:30:27,800 --> 01:30:29,400
Speaker 1: ask that in one sentence, but I'm going to give

1531
01:30:29,400 --> 01:30:33,439
Speaker 1: you the background into the marginalias. It consists of, as

1532
01:30:33,479 --> 01:30:36,599
Speaker 1: I said, a number of penncilanizations that Donald has written

1533
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:40,439
Speaker 1: alongside the printed word in Anderson's book, and specifically on

1534
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:44,120
Speaker 1: on a couple of pages where Anderson writes about Um

1535
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:50,599
Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper, the Whitechappel murders, and Um the prime

1536
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:54,760
Speaker 1: suspect we called him, Anderson writes, I'll merely add here

1537
01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:56,800
Speaker 1: that the only person who ever had a good good

1538
01:30:56,840 --> 01:31:00,720
Speaker 1: view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the subspec at the

1539
01:31:00,880 --> 01:31:03,559
Speaker 1: instant he was confronted with him that refused to give

1540
01:31:03,600 --> 01:31:08,479
Speaker 1: evidence against him, and Swanson's written underneath in a purple pencil.

1541
01:31:09,240 --> 01:31:11,080
Speaker 1: And the reason I'm turning to the color of the

1542
01:31:11,120 --> 01:31:16,479
Speaker 1: pencil is important because it's helpful in the later testing

1543
01:31:16,760 --> 01:31:20,320
Speaker 1: of the marginalia. Swanson wrote because the suspect was also

1544
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:24,040
Speaker 1: a Jew, and also because his evidence would convict the

1545
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:26,439
Speaker 1: suspect and witness would be the means of the murder

1546
01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:28,280
Speaker 1: of being hanged, which he did not wish to be

1547
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:32,280
Speaker 1: left on his mind. D. S. S. And then some

1548
01:31:32,479 --> 01:31:37,280
Speaker 1: later day, using a different gray pencil, Swanson's underlined Anderson's

1549
01:31:37,560 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 1: comment identified the suspect. He was confronted with him and

1550
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:43,760
Speaker 1: his own comment also a jew and added in the

1551
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:48,160
Speaker 1: left hand margin. And after this identification, which suspect knew,

1552
01:31:48,720 --> 01:31:51,240
Speaker 1: no other murder of this kind took place in London.

1553
01:31:52,720 --> 01:31:58,240
Speaker 1: And elaborating on the end paper UM Swanson, Swanson wrote,

1554
01:31:58,320 --> 01:32:01,519
Speaker 1: continue from page hundred thirty eight. After the subspect had

1555
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:04,120
Speaker 1: been identified at the Seaside home where had been sent

1556
01:32:04,240 --> 01:32:07,280
Speaker 1: by us with difficulty in order to subject subject him

1557
01:32:07,320 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 1: to identification he knew was identified on the suspect's returned

1558
01:32:11,880 --> 01:32:14,000
Speaker 1: to his brother's house in Whitechapel. He was watched by

1559
01:32:14,080 --> 01:32:17,840
Speaker 1: police City c I D by day and night. In

1560
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:20,320
Speaker 1: a very short time, the suspect with his hands tied

1561
01:32:20,360 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 1: beyond his back. He was sent to Stephney Workhouse and

1562
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:26,719
Speaker 1: then to Colney Hatch and he died shortly afterwards. Because

1563
01:32:26,760 --> 01:32:30,839
Speaker 1: Minsky was the suspect d s S. So I'm mentioning

1564
01:32:30,920 --> 01:32:34,000
Speaker 1: that he's initialed these points because again that was an

1565
01:32:34,479 --> 01:32:39,560
Speaker 1: important aspect in UM, proving that the genuineness of the

1566
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:45,400
Speaker 1: the marginalia. But since these these comments were first made

1567
01:32:45,439 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 1: public in the Telegraph, UM researchers have been trying to

1568
01:32:49,880 --> 01:32:52,240
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of Swampson's claims, which is where

1569
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:56,200
Speaker 1: was the seaside home, who was the witness in the identification,

1570
01:32:56,280 --> 01:32:59,479
Speaker 1: and of course who was kause Minski. But because the

1571
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:03,200
Speaker 1: definity answers to these questions have yet to be found UM,

1572
01:33:03,400 --> 01:33:06,080
Speaker 1: some people have claimed that the Marginalia might not be genuine,

1573
01:33:06,640 --> 01:33:08,880
Speaker 1: and in two thousand and six, when the Swanson family

1574
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:12,040
Speaker 1: loaned the book to Scotland Yard's Crime Museum, it was

1575
01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:16,800
Speaker 1: sent to the METS Forensic Science Service for examination and

1576
01:33:16,920 --> 01:33:19,400
Speaker 1: using a leegend known to be written by Swanson put

1577
01:33:19,520 --> 01:33:23,400
Speaker 1: in black ink rather than pencil. Dr Christopher Davies of

1578
01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:27,920
Speaker 1: the Forensicy Department concluded there strong evidence that the Marginalia

1579
01:33:28,160 --> 01:33:31,800
Speaker 1: had been written by Donald Swanson, stating that he might

1580
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:34,360
Speaker 1: be able to reevaluate his opinion if he were to

1581
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:38,800
Speaker 1: compare against more contemporary writings by Swanson in pencil. So

1582
01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:41,559
Speaker 1: when when I began my research is back in two

1583
01:33:41,560 --> 01:33:44,560
Speaker 1: thousands and twelve and access to the family archive. I

1584
01:33:44,640 --> 01:33:47,040
Speaker 1: discovered letters written by Swanson into the last years of

1585
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:50,720
Speaker 1: his life UM and his personal address book, and they

1586
01:33:50,760 --> 01:33:53,559
Speaker 1: all displayed evidence of the shaking hand commented on by

1587
01:33:53,680 --> 01:33:56,880
Speaker 1: Dr Davies, and Swanson actually writes he's got a hand

1588
01:33:56,920 --> 01:34:01,000
Speaker 1: tremor so he can't continue writing one particular letter to

1589
01:34:01,080 --> 01:34:04,479
Speaker 1: it to her grandson. UM I managed to contact Dr

1590
01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:07,120
Speaker 1: Davis and asked if you'd be willing to take another

1591
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:10,680
Speaker 1: look at the MARGINALI lookates his new samples, and I

1592
01:34:10,800 --> 01:34:13,080
Speaker 1: was very pleased that he agreed to do so, and

1593
01:34:13,160 --> 01:34:15,639
Speaker 1: as a result, the conclusion was upgraded to very strong

1594
01:34:15,720 --> 01:34:20,120
Speaker 1: evidence the MARGINALI had been written by Swanson. Um And

1595
01:34:20,280 --> 01:34:23,040
Speaker 1: off the record, Dr Davies said, this is the closest

1596
01:34:23,080 --> 01:34:27,000
Speaker 1: we'd ever get in official report to an absolute certainty.

1597
01:34:27,120 --> 01:34:30,280
Speaker 1: But as far as he was concerned that the Marginalia

1598
01:34:30,400 --> 01:34:33,720
Speaker 1: was written by Swanson. And then when it comes to

1599
01:34:34,720 --> 01:34:37,800
Speaker 1: the substance of those comments themselves, both well, both by

1600
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 1: Anderson and the pages of the book and Swanson on

1601
01:34:40,160 --> 01:34:43,719
Speaker 1: the margins um they're discussing a suspect, and and Swanson

1602
01:34:43,800 --> 01:34:49,320
Speaker 1: names him because Minsky and I suppose the question is detectives.

1603
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:53,760
Speaker 1: You know, Anderson and Swanson sharing a suspect, does it

1604
01:34:53,840 --> 01:34:57,920
Speaker 1: require that we follow their conclusions? Do we go do

1605
01:34:58,040 --> 01:35:00,439
Speaker 1: we in our own minds go from? Because mins this

1606
01:35:00,720 --> 01:35:03,400
Speaker 1: the suspect of Chrisminsky the murderer. How much weight do

1607
01:35:03,479 --> 01:35:09,080
Speaker 1: you personally give to Swanson and and Anderson's identification of

1608
01:35:09,160 --> 01:35:14,000
Speaker 1: a suspect. I think it's um, it's it's very difficult

1609
01:35:14,080 --> 01:35:18,360
Speaker 1: to evaluate um Swanson Andson based on what he's what

1610
01:35:18,439 --> 01:35:24,240
Speaker 1: he's probably the the more recent acceptance of the marginalia

1611
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:27,759
Speaker 1: because the only Kasminski that fight that has been found

1612
01:35:28,160 --> 01:35:32,200
Speaker 1: in all this time that seems to fit Swanson's comments,

1613
01:35:32,280 --> 01:35:34,960
Speaker 1: but not all of them. He's Aaron Kasminski found by

1614
01:35:35,040 --> 01:35:41,320
Speaker 1: Martin Fido. Um, we're back in actually, but he Aaron

1615
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:46,040
Speaker 1: Kasminsky didn't die soon after being in cost writed in

1616
01:35:46,120 --> 01:35:49,479
Speaker 1: Colony Hatcher, Swanson writes, and he wasn't arrested. Anderson seems

1617
01:35:49,479 --> 01:35:52,639
Speaker 1: to be quite clear that the suspect was identified soon

1618
01:35:52,680 --> 01:35:56,479
Speaker 1: after the murder of Mary Kelly. Um Swanson doesn't correct

1619
01:35:56,840 --> 01:35:59,240
Speaker 1: Anderson's comment that Mary Kelly was the last White Chapel

1620
01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:03,840
Speaker 1: lost true Whitechappel murder. So people today said, I think, well,

1621
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:07,519
Speaker 1: kause Minski definitely was Aaron Kosminski. But how can we

1622
01:36:07,640 --> 01:36:11,519
Speaker 1: fit a square shaped Aaron Cosmnski into a triangle shaped

1623
01:36:11,680 --> 01:36:15,840
Speaker 1: Swanson marginalia. It doesn't work. So Swanson and Anderson, we

1624
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:21,240
Speaker 1: weren't that they weren't that strong in their convictions, that

1625
01:36:21,280 --> 01:36:24,800
Speaker 1: because Minsky was the killer, maybe it's just another suspect um.

1626
01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:28,640
Speaker 1: So he tends to be dismissed based on that. But

1627
01:36:29,200 --> 01:36:32,360
Speaker 1: Anderson himself seems very confident that his Polish Jew was

1628
01:36:32,400 --> 01:36:35,000
Speaker 1: the murderer, although he doesn't name because Minsky. He says,

1629
01:36:35,040 --> 01:36:37,559
Speaker 1: I'm almost tempted to disclose your identity of the murderer.

1630
01:36:37,680 --> 01:36:40,120
Speaker 1: So as far as he was concerned them, the Polish

1631
01:36:40,200 --> 01:36:43,240
Speaker 1: Jew who was identified by the witness who refused to

1632
01:36:43,240 --> 01:36:46,919
Speaker 1: give evidence was Jack the ripper. Swanson is more restrained

1633
01:36:46,960 --> 01:36:49,920
Speaker 1: and refers to him as the suspect in the marginalia.

1634
01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:52,640
Speaker 1: And yet he does say that the witness refused to

1635
01:36:52,680 --> 01:36:55,160
Speaker 1: testify because he didn't want his evidence to be the

1636
01:36:55,200 --> 01:36:58,920
Speaker 1: cause of the murderer being hanged. So you know, there's

1637
01:36:58,920 --> 01:37:01,800
Speaker 1: a case that it could be claimed that the ultra

1638
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:05,560
Speaker 1: professional policeman Swanson was using the correct terminology of the

1639
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:08,840
Speaker 1: policeman who is a suspect until charge and convicted when

1640
01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 1: he become a murderer. That's one liner thinking, But I

1641
01:37:12,360 --> 01:37:16,879
Speaker 1: think we need to consider Swanson's habit of correcting printed statements.

1642
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:21,200
Speaker 1: In other examples of marginalia because you know, these notes

1643
01:37:21,280 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 1: were written for his own personal use. They were never

1644
01:37:23,320 --> 01:37:26,080
Speaker 1: intended to be what are seen by the public or

1645
01:37:26,160 --> 01:37:29,000
Speaker 1: for certainly not for publication. And I feel if he

1646
01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:33,800
Speaker 1: disagreed with Anderson um any of Anderson's written comments he

1647
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:36,800
Speaker 1: would have made, he'd have made a comment, as he

1648
01:37:36,880 --> 01:37:40,679
Speaker 1: does with with other suggestions in other books. He doesn't

1649
01:37:40,800 --> 01:37:43,719
Speaker 1: challenge Anderson's claim that the last trooper of the victim

1650
01:37:43,760 --> 01:37:46,600
Speaker 1: was Kelly. He doesn't or no. That the killer was

1651
01:37:46,640 --> 01:37:50,040
Speaker 1: a Polish Jew was a definitely ascertained fact, and it

1652
01:37:50,160 --> 01:37:53,280
Speaker 1: just leads me to believe that Swanson probably also believed

1653
01:37:53,280 --> 01:37:55,519
Speaker 1: because Minsky to beach at the ripper rather than just

1654
01:37:55,560 --> 01:37:58,639
Speaker 1: another suspect. After all, he was the one officer who

1655
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:01,680
Speaker 1: saw every scrap of evidence and report, and you have

1656
01:38:01,720 --> 01:38:05,519
Speaker 1: to assume that he knew more than anybody m MHM.

1657
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:10,519
Speaker 1: In in the final chapter of your book, Swanson, you

1658
01:38:10,640 --> 01:38:15,880
Speaker 1: write the Donald Swanson epitomized the evolving Victorian detective, representing

1659
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:19,519
Speaker 1: that era in the force's history. Would you offer a

1660
01:38:19,600 --> 01:38:22,639
Speaker 1: few a few comments along those lines for our listeners.

1661
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:25,519
Speaker 1: How was it that Swanson was really the epitome of

1662
01:38:26,040 --> 01:38:29,439
Speaker 1: a detective in that time. As I mentioned at the

1663
01:38:29,520 --> 01:38:32,320
Speaker 1: beginning of the conversation, the thirty five year period in

1664
01:38:32,360 --> 01:38:35,960
Speaker 1: which Swanson served was nearly of great advances in in

1665
01:38:36,040 --> 01:38:39,160
Speaker 1: the methods of detection and forensics, and his story from

1666
01:38:39,240 --> 01:38:41,760
Speaker 1: the humble Bobby on the beat to return a superintendent

1667
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:45,240
Speaker 1: of the c i d A Scotland Yard, it neatly

1668
01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:48,559
Speaker 1: mirrors the evolution of policing from a time when they

1669
01:38:48,600 --> 01:38:51,719
Speaker 1: were using initially the most rudimentary equipment such as rattles

1670
01:38:52,240 --> 01:38:54,519
Speaker 1: and Cutlassy is not even having whistles at that point

1671
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:57,720
Speaker 1: to the earlier twentieth century when he retired and the

1672
01:38:57,800 --> 01:39:01,639
Speaker 1: forced adopted fingerprint evidence and forensic detection was changed forever.

1673
01:39:02,520 --> 01:39:07,280
Speaker 1: M you've mentioned that your next project is going to

1674
01:39:07,320 --> 01:39:11,400
Speaker 1: be on the coroner who was so significant in the

1675
01:39:11,600 --> 01:39:16,120
Speaker 1: inquests and investigating this case throughout, Win Baxter. UM. Would

1676
01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:18,040
Speaker 1: you have a few minutes to talk with us about

1677
01:39:18,080 --> 01:39:20,760
Speaker 1: Win Baxter, who he was, and what you're learning about

1678
01:39:20,800 --> 01:39:23,040
Speaker 1: him as you research him more. Well, I think, as

1679
01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:26,680
Speaker 1: you said Carla at the beginning of the conversation, UM,

1680
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:31,240
Speaker 1: you'd found my UM article. It was probably just magazine

1681
01:39:31,240 --> 01:39:33,519
Speaker 1: on back, so that was written back in two thousand

1682
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:36,040
Speaker 1: and five. I think, which is quite scary to think

1683
01:39:36,080 --> 01:39:40,559
Speaker 1: about that that really was a sort of precursor perhaps

1684
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:44,599
Speaker 1: to my research model on the Swanson book, because now,

1685
01:39:45,040 --> 01:39:49,640
Speaker 1: again you know, people before that article appeared, perhaps all

1686
01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:52,599
Speaker 1: Baxter has just always a fussy coroner. He's a busy

1687
01:39:52,680 --> 01:39:54,760
Speaker 1: body who has like to get his name in the

1688
01:39:54,840 --> 01:39:57,759
Speaker 1: papers and and things like that. And I thought, well, again,

1689
01:39:58,040 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 1: there's got to be more in this guy's background. Gives

1690
01:40:00,800 --> 01:40:03,920
Speaker 1: some context to the way he conducted the inquest. What

1691
01:40:04,000 --> 01:40:07,080
Speaker 1: did he do in his professional life because the coroner's

1692
01:40:07,080 --> 01:40:10,439
Speaker 1: obviously they although they received money for each inquest they

1693
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:12,720
Speaker 1: conducted that, that wasn't their full time job. They were

1694
01:40:12,960 --> 01:40:16,840
Speaker 1: they were doctors, or they were um solicitors back barris

1695
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:20,280
Speaker 1: as that sort of thing um. And Baxter was was

1696
01:40:20,320 --> 01:40:24,759
Speaker 1: a solicitor first in Lewis Down near Brighton in Sussex,

1697
01:40:25,080 --> 01:40:28,760
Speaker 1: where he first became a coroner. I think he was

1698
01:40:28,880 --> 01:40:30,960
Speaker 1: probably in the early in his early twenties, so he

1699
01:40:31,040 --> 01:40:34,479
Speaker 1: was quite young when he took on that position. And

1700
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:36,960
Speaker 1: as a quite a nice story that I dug out

1701
01:40:37,000 --> 01:40:41,679
Speaker 1: for the for the book on Swanson, where the former

1702
01:40:42,240 --> 01:40:45,599
Speaker 1: coroner had had served at the Sussex for a number

1703
01:40:45,640 --> 01:40:48,479
Speaker 1: of years. But he was forced to give up the

1704
01:40:48,600 --> 01:40:51,559
Speaker 1: role in disgrace because he had been embezzling funds from

1705
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:55,280
Speaker 1: from some some widow, some rich widow who being trusted

1706
01:40:55,360 --> 01:40:58,439
Speaker 1: him with several thousand pounds. And again that that that's

1707
01:40:58,439 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 1: a nice story which gives a little bit of understanding

1708
01:41:01,400 --> 01:41:04,600
Speaker 1: how Baxter came to the job. But um, when I

1709
01:41:04,720 --> 01:41:07,800
Speaker 1: was researching for that two thousands of five articles, Uh,

1710
01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:12,800
Speaker 1: there's there's enormous amount of information locally and Lewis about

1711
01:41:12,880 --> 01:41:17,120
Speaker 1: the Backster family. Heat One of his uncles, George Backster,

1712
01:41:17,320 --> 01:41:22,320
Speaker 1: was very famous artist, color color print maker, one probably

1713
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:25,639
Speaker 1: one of the first artists who had color prints made

1714
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:30,040
Speaker 1: of his work. His father Wind Backs as far grandfather

1715
01:41:30,200 --> 01:41:34,360
Speaker 1: John was very famous in Sussex and around the whole area.

1716
01:41:34,640 --> 01:41:39,200
Speaker 1: They had the first um mobile library lending out books.

1717
01:41:39,320 --> 01:41:41,479
Speaker 1: They became a publish in the area and in facts,

1718
01:41:41,520 --> 01:41:44,799
Speaker 1: Baxter's down in Lewis is still one of the largest

1719
01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:48,639
Speaker 1: employers in the area. They owned several of the until

1720
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:52,519
Speaker 1: recent years of the Sussex newspaper. So there's there's quite

1721
01:41:52,520 --> 01:41:55,200
Speaker 1: a lot. There's quite a lot in wind Baxter's background

1722
01:41:55,760 --> 01:41:58,960
Speaker 1: that you know, you think, well, he obviously understood from

1723
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:01,600
Speaker 1: an early age with his grand fathers owning of the

1724
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:04,040
Speaker 1: newspapers and the printing press and that sort of thing

1725
01:42:04,600 --> 01:42:08,200
Speaker 1: that let's let's rose the profile of the family name.

1726
01:42:08,720 --> 01:42:10,640
Speaker 1: He probably did like getting his name in the in

1727
01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:17,640
Speaker 1: the press. But UM, recognizing he had a few coroners

1728
01:42:18,080 --> 01:42:21,439
Speaker 1: positions in London after he had moved to the city

1729
01:42:21,520 --> 01:42:24,719
Speaker 1: in his in hislicitor's practice, Um, he was a deputy

1730
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:29,400
Speaker 1: coroner of the City of London. Um coronership and another

1731
01:42:30,160 --> 01:42:34,479
Speaker 1: I think the South Middlesex may have got that wrong,

1732
01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:39,680
Speaker 1: the South Middlesex jurisdiction. But the going right back to

1733
01:42:39,720 --> 01:42:41,960
Speaker 1: an early question about what was the East End like

1734
01:42:42,400 --> 01:42:45,920
Speaker 1: and being poor and the poverty line and lots of

1735
01:42:46,000 --> 01:42:49,240
Speaker 1: disease and things. There obviously were lots of inquests needed

1736
01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:51,600
Speaker 1: in that area. So that was for a coroner that

1737
01:42:53,280 --> 01:42:57,200
Speaker 1: coronership area jurisdiction of the East Middlesex, which covered White

1738
01:42:57,280 --> 01:43:00,160
Speaker 1: chap in the East End, was was you know, um,

1739
01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:02,800
Speaker 1: something that they all aspired to because there were so

1740
01:43:02,880 --> 01:43:08,840
Speaker 1: many inquests into natural deaths, um violent deaths that there

1741
01:43:08,920 --> 01:43:11,519
Speaker 1: was quite a lot of money to be made looking

1742
01:43:11,520 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 1: at it from from a purely economic view. UM. So

1743
01:43:14,560 --> 01:43:16,559
Speaker 1: back to pulled out all the all the stops really

1744
01:43:16,600 --> 01:43:20,320
Speaker 1: when he went when he went up for the candidacy

1745
01:43:21,160 --> 01:43:24,639
Speaker 1: um in ad and six when it when it came along,

1746
01:43:25,479 --> 01:43:28,479
Speaker 1: he put lots of adverts in the newspaper, sort of

1747
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:34,280
Speaker 1: trying to get attracting the votes and that sort of thing. Um. Interestingly,

1748
01:43:34,439 --> 01:43:37,200
Speaker 1: when when the first vote was cast it seemed he

1749
01:43:37,240 --> 01:43:40,200
Speaker 1: had been beaten into second place by Roderick McDonald, who

1750
01:43:40,400 --> 01:43:44,519
Speaker 1: who later conducted the inquest into Mary Kelly's death. But

1751
01:43:45,600 --> 01:43:49,720
Speaker 1: backstas Um supporters who were there at the count made

1752
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:53,800
Speaker 1: such a noise and cause such a problem that the

1753
01:43:53,960 --> 01:43:56,000
Speaker 1: count couldn't be conducted, so they had to redo the

1754
01:43:56,080 --> 01:43:58,760
Speaker 1: vote load of date and of course backs to one

1755
01:43:59,360 --> 01:44:01,960
Speaker 1: quite consider read by on that occasion. So he's a

1756
01:44:02,040 --> 01:44:05,759
Speaker 1: very interesting character um. And in terms of the Ripper

1757
01:44:05,840 --> 01:44:08,240
Speaker 1: Inquest that he presided over, I don't think that he

1758
01:44:08,400 --> 01:44:13,240
Speaker 1: was fussy or or overstated. I think he or flashy,

1759
01:44:13,560 --> 01:44:15,840
Speaker 1: as he's been described in some books. I think he

1760
01:44:15,960 --> 01:44:20,400
Speaker 1: was more of a conscientious um. He wouldn't officer, he

1761
01:44:20,439 --> 01:44:23,320
Speaker 1: wouldn't take any nonsense. He didn't let a witness off

1762
01:44:23,439 --> 01:44:25,920
Speaker 1: lightly if they didn't give the evidence they had been

1763
01:44:25,960 --> 01:44:28,840
Speaker 1: called to give. So I think he was just looking

1764
01:44:28,880 --> 01:44:32,439
Speaker 1: to get the biggert the most full story, you know,

1765
01:44:32,600 --> 01:44:36,639
Speaker 1: as as each case deserved really um. And he stayed

1766
01:44:36,680 --> 01:44:39,519
Speaker 1: in in that position until he actually died in he

1767
01:44:39,600 --> 01:44:41,560
Speaker 1: had a he had an attack in the in the

1768
01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:45,880
Speaker 1: after an inquest in he'd been in position for about

1769
01:44:45,880 --> 01:44:49,320
Speaker 1: twenty four years and conducted over ten inquests, it was

1770
01:44:49,439 --> 01:44:54,160
Speaker 1: estimated at that time. And this goes right from before

1771
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:58,560
Speaker 1: the Ripper time up to First World War spies, the

1772
01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:03,920
Speaker 1: elephant man Joseph Merrick died in Whitechapel right up through

1773
01:45:04,040 --> 01:45:08,320
Speaker 1: two Hounds each murders. Churchill was palty give evidence on

1774
01:45:08,400 --> 01:45:10,800
Speaker 1: the inquest. So there's an enormous scope not just in

1775
01:45:10,920 --> 01:45:14,479
Speaker 1: Baxter's personal life, but the context and the content of

1776
01:45:15,000 --> 01:45:17,560
Speaker 1: the inquest. It wass aided over again a bit like

1777
01:45:17,640 --> 01:45:22,240
Speaker 1: Swanson with the UH the evolution of the met. I

1778
01:45:22,280 --> 01:45:24,840
Speaker 1: think there's a big slice of history covered by wind

1779
01:45:24,880 --> 01:45:27,720
Speaker 1: backs to be in the coroner for these Middle Sex,

1780
01:45:27,760 --> 01:45:29,839
Speaker 1: which I think we'll make for a fascinating story anyway,

1781
01:45:31,120 --> 01:45:34,160
Speaker 1: Well we will. I'm eager for that book. I'm looking

1782
01:45:34,200 --> 01:45:38,600
Speaker 1: forward to to reading that. Um. Well, Adam, thank you

1783
01:45:38,680 --> 01:45:43,200
Speaker 1: again so much for joining used and and sharing your work. Uh,

1784
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:46,799
Speaker 1: this is brilliant, and I hope we'll send many listeners

1785
01:45:46,880 --> 01:45:50,320
Speaker 1: to your book and your future book. I'm really excited

1786
01:45:50,360 --> 01:45:51,760
Speaker 1: for that. I'm glad you were able to share with

1787
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:54,360
Speaker 1: us that you're working on that project. Baxter is such

1788
01:45:54,360 --> 01:45:57,200
Speaker 1: an interesting figure and to really have a detailed exploration

1789
01:45:57,240 --> 01:45:59,120
Speaker 1: of his life would be would be brilliant, So I

1790
01:45:59,240 --> 01:46:02,800
Speaker 1: totally agree and probably never get the chance to get

1791
01:46:02,840 --> 01:46:04,559
Speaker 1: around to it. But beyond that, I was also thinking

1792
01:46:04,600 --> 01:46:07,559
Speaker 1: about a biography of Dr Bond would be an interesting

1793
01:46:07,640 --> 01:46:09,880
Speaker 1: one week, and with such other such a long career,

1794
01:46:09,960 --> 01:46:12,160
Speaker 1: but there's always there's never enough time to do all

1795
01:46:12,200 --> 01:46:17,960
Speaker 1: this sort of research and writing. That's it for this

1796
01:46:18,160 --> 01:46:22,479
Speaker 1: week's episode of Unobscured. Stick around after this short sponsor

1797
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:25,840
Speaker 1: break for a preview of what's in store for next week.

1798
01:46:30,840 --> 01:46:32,720
Speaker 1: One of his great answers in the book is one

1799
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:37,080
Speaker 1: day lining up to place her bet and behind her

1800
01:46:37,200 --> 01:46:39,960
Speaker 1: incomes a top with a top hat, a rich guy

1801
01:46:40,120 --> 01:46:43,920
Speaker 1: for some reasons in the area, and stands behind her

1802
01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:47,000
Speaker 1: to place his bet. And some of the local lads

1803
01:46:47,040 --> 01:46:49,120
Speaker 1: who are in there think this is an opportune to

1804
01:46:49,479 --> 01:46:52,719
Speaker 1: here for a bit of mischief, so they reached around

1805
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:57,920
Speaker 1: said tough and they pinch aunt is bossom. Now she

1806
01:46:58,439 --> 01:47:00,720
Speaker 1: does not ask any questions at this point, by the way,

1807
01:47:00,840 --> 01:47:04,519
Speaker 1: she just wheels round leading with her fist and knocks

1808
01:47:04,600 --> 01:47:07,640
Speaker 1: the bloke out with one punch. So one good right

1809
01:47:07,720 --> 01:47:11,400
Speaker 1: hook and this port off top half doubtless flying across

1810
01:47:11,439 --> 01:47:14,760
Speaker 1: the blades floor is spark out on the floor, So

1811
01:47:14,880 --> 01:47:17,360
Speaker 1: that tells you how violent. You know, how dangerous life

1812
01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:19,559
Speaker 1: was for women. They had to be prepared to come

1813
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:38,720
Speaker 1: out fighting and no questions asked. Unobscured was created by

1814
01:47:38,760 --> 01:47:42,200
Speaker 1: me Aaron Manky and produced by Matt Frederick, Alex Williams,

1815
01:47:42,320 --> 01:47:46,120
Speaker 1: and Josh Thane in partnership with I Heart Radio. Research

1816
01:47:46,200 --> 01:47:48,200
Speaker 1: and writing for this season is all the work of

1817
01:47:48,280 --> 01:47:51,040
Speaker 1: my right hand man Carl Nellis and the brilliant Chad

1818
01:47:51,120 --> 01:47:54,680
Speaker 1: Lawson composed the brand new soundtrack. Learn more about our

1819
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:58,639
Speaker 1: contributing historians, source material and links to our other shows

1820
01:47:58,840 --> 01:48:02,599
Speaker 1: over at History on a skewed dot com, and until

1821
01:48:02,680 --> 01:48:13,320
Speaker 1: next time, thanks for listening. Unobscured is a production of

1822
01:48:13,400 --> 01:48:15,760
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Aaron Menkey. For more podcasts for

1823
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:18,439
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit I heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts,

1824
01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:21,920
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, h