1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greace bind torture kill, denistrator, the 2 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,440 Speaker 1: dogcatcher turned serial killer. We know he murdered ten people. 3 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: He's confessed to that. How many more victims are out 4 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: there still unaccounted for? How many families wonder what happened 5 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: to mom? What happened to my sister, what happened to 6 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: my daughter, my granddaughter? Maybe you can help us. Coming 7 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: forward now, Gina Rodriguez to tell the story of her 8 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: hook cup, her encounter with BTK. Can it dislodge memories 9 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: from other women? Can they help us establish more of 10 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: a motorc opera die method of operation and help us 11 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: connect BTK Dennis Raider to other victims. I know they're 12 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: out there. I've got no doubt in my mind. Right now, 13 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: BTK Dennis Raider is undergoing a valiant attempt to avoid 14 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: the death penalty, which so far he's managed to escape. 15 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: In the days leading up to many of his murders, 16 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: Dennis Raider would take special care to stalk the victim, 17 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: figuring out their routine, even scoping out their workplace. 18 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: Listen, if you've read. 19 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 3: Much about serial killers, they go through what they call 20 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 3: the different phases. That's one of the phases they go 21 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 3: through as a trolling stage. Basically you're looking for a 22 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 3: victim at that time, and that you could be trolling 23 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 3: for months or years. But once you lock in on 24 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 3: a certain person that you've become stocking, and that might 25 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 3: be several of them, but do you really hol me 26 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 3: in on that person, they basically become the that's that's 27 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 3: the victim. 28 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: Here we see the same thing happening Sheriff Vernon with. 29 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 4: He has told me directly that he has stocked victims 30 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 4: for years. Again, the bar is spot on because you know, 31 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 4: he went over one project he called it the Blackout Bar, 32 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 4: where where he was working on a victim from that location. 33 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 4: Uh so, you know what what she's saying matches, you know, 34 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 4: not just his patterns, but but it matches with what 35 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 4: we already know and has confirmed through his own stuff 36 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 4: that that that he used bars and found victims from bars, 37 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 4: that that he stocked them for years. You know, we've 38 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 4: got again what I shared about you about the news 39 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 4: paper clipping to one of the drawings, you know where 40 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 4: where nurse had a date with death. Uh it's it's 41 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 4: you know, it's exactly what I would have expected. And 42 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 4: again her coming forward. We know through his writings and 43 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 4: timeline that he created, he's got markings of kidnappings where 44 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 4: there wasn't a death involved with it. 45 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: You know, Cheryl McCollum, when you and I worked together 46 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: in the courts and the justice system, we weighed witness 47 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: and victims credibility very carefully. I would go over a 48 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: story over and over and over with a victim or 49 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: a witness before I would put them on the stand 50 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: to see if their story ever changed, or if they 51 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: added to the story. Adding to the story wouldn't really 52 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: bother me. That would just mean that they hadn't been 53 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: asked the right question yet. Changing the story is a 54 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 1: whole other thing. But you also look for detail in 55 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: the story, for instance, in important times of your life. 56 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: Sometimes you can remember detail, like I can remember what 57 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: I wore to my fiance's funeral. It was the dress 58 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: of my sister's. I never wore it again, but right 59 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: now I can remember it. It's funny, Cheryl, funny odd 60 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: that a lot of other facts are all a blur. 61 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 5: To me. 62 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: It's just a big blur. Did you hear Gina describe 63 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 1: so perfectly what this guy had on a maroon suit 64 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: and she remembers white shoes. But yet when she meets 65 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: him for lunch, he has on a completely different outfit. 66 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: He has a different affect. He looks like he works outside. 67 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: Do you think that I had anything to do with 68 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: his job as a dog catcher. 69 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 6: I had the opportunity to speak with this Rodriguez twice 70 00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 6: before before today. What sticks out for me I believe 71 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 6: that his whole persona was different because his motivation was different. 72 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 6: This was no longer to meet somebody, to stalk somebody 73 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 6: and select somebody. This was to get that person alan 74 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 6: and harm them. He looked different, he acted different because 75 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 6: what he was about that evening was completely different. 76 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: Take a listen to the dogcatcher killer. 77 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 3: What I called my hit clothes, and it closed up 78 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 3: basically different. You know, things that I need to get 79 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 3: rid of later. Not the same kind of clothes I 80 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 3: had on. I don't want other better word us at 81 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 3: the crime clothes or hit clothes. 82 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 2: I just called him git clothes. 83 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: Was his outfit is a dogcatcher at Sheriff Verdon. 84 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 4: So at that time, Nancy, so you have the timeframe correct. 85 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 4: So he came back from the military, he worked for 86 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 4: Leaker's grocery store for a while, and then he got 87 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 4: on with Coleman Camping Supplies and then moved to Cesna 88 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 4: and he lost his job with Cessna in seventy three 89 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 4: towards the fall, and that's when he started college on 90 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 4: his GI bill. His wife was working and from the 91 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 4: end of seventy three until he got hired in the 92 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 4: later part of seventy four for ad T. He was 93 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 4: unemployed during the time that she's described me, and then 94 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 4: he worked for eighty T from seventy four until approximately 95 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 4: eighty eight when he was laid off from ADT. Then 96 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 4: he went to work for the Census through eighty nine 97 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 4: and ninety and he started with Park City as a 98 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 4: dog catcher in ninety one. 99 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: Got you so that would not apply to this time period? 100 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 1: You really? I tried to my interest on something you 101 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: just said. You mentioned he had been in the military 102 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: and he worked at SESNA, and he told Gina that 103 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: he She said, why are you here? And he says, McConnell, 104 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: McConnell Air Force Base. What do you make of that? 105 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 5: Dale Carson, Well, I listened to this and I'm fascinated 106 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 5: to hear these details. The ADT connection. Obviously allows him 107 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 5: to understand pairs on phone lines, and the ability to 108 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 5: cut phone lines for early alarm systems and to run 109 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 5: pairs to other locations where you could listen to victims 110 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 5: phone calls. Is really fascinating to me because the technology 111 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 5: back then allows you to know a phone. If you 112 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 5: knew a phone number, you could find a location. Now 113 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 5: that's no longer as true as it used to be, 114 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 5: but it certainly was true then. And of course his 115 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 5: employment with these various agencies allowed him to have access 116 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 5: to the tools and equipment, particularly adat, necessary to trap 117 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 5: those lines and to use them to his own devices. 118 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 5: So when I first heard Jenna to talk about the 119 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 5: guy that she called and reported the bad phone calls 120 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 5: to was the same voice, I thought, well, that can't 121 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 5: possibly be right. But now that I understand that his 122 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 5: knowledge and information, the eighty eight a et trap wine 123 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 5: which used the telephone pairs, could have been easily used 124 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 5: by him in order to maintain surveillance on his victims. 125 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Dennis Rider in his own words. 126 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 3: Uh, anyway, I walked from a car as a telephone repairman. 127 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 3: As I walked there, don the telephone helmet, I had 128 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 3: a briefcase, went to one other address just to kind of. 129 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: Size up the house. 130 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 3: I'd walked by it a couple of times, but I 131 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 3: wanted to check it a little bit more. As I 132 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,839 Speaker 3: approached it, I could hear a panel sound and went 133 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 3: to this other door knock that we were recently working 134 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 3: on telephone. 135 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 2: Repairs in area, and went. 136 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 3: To her, went to her and knocking the door and 137 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 3: ask her if I can check her telephone lines inside? 138 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 1: Now, isn't it true that writer had joined the Air Force? 139 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: When we say he was in the military, He was 140 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 1: in the Air Force. He did his basic training at Lachland, 141 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: and then he moved on to another air base. And 142 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: then when she asks him, tell me again, Gina Rodriguez, 143 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 1: how McConnell air Force Base came up when. 144 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 7: I was asking him about himself and he had told 145 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 7: me he was lived in California but was here on 146 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 7: business in Wichita. And I said, what type of business 147 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 7: there you on? And all he said to me was McConnell, 148 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 7: which is the air Force base. He didn't voluntary anymore. McConnell. 149 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's another interesting fact with there's so much, 150 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: she said, it's interesting. Taught to Joni Johnson when he 151 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: was saying that while he was claiming to be from California, 152 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: he said he was angry at the city of Wichita 153 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: because of local politics, which means he's not living in California. 154 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: But that said, and she Gina Rodriguez asked him, did 155 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: you hear about that family that got killed? He knew 156 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: about the track in the snow, and he let it 157 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: slip that, Wow, Gop sure had a lot of a 158 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: big mess to clean up. 159 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 8: Yeah, there are several interesting things he says, and some 160 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 8: of them are contradictory to each other. You know, you're right, 161 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 8: if you're from California, you would't expect to know as 162 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 8: much about local politics as he's claiming he does. And 163 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 8: then the murder situation. The other thing that kind of 164 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 8: jumped out to me was he talks about growing up 165 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 8: in an orphanage or spending some time in an orphanage, 166 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 8: and then he makes some comment about doing things in 167 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 8: his parents' house. So I'm not sure what was going 168 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 8: on with him in terms of not being able to 169 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 8: keep his story straight, But there were several contradictions in 170 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 8: some of the things he was saying. 171 00:10:55,920 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace Sure Vernon joining us who 172 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: is now assembled the BTK Task Force. Sure, Vernon, what 173 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: do we know about his upbringing? 174 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 4: Well, you know, the real story is his father was 175 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 4: in the military when he was born. They lived in Columbus, Kansas. 176 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 4: His father came back from a service and returned to 177 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 4: that area and then moved from Columbus to Wichita for employment. 178 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 4: And they moved which I believe somewhere when Dennis was 179 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 4: four or five years old, and they were there. But 180 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 4: one thing, unfortunately, from the last eleven months, I've learned 181 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 4: a lot about Denis Raider, some things that really stick 182 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 4: out to me from what she said, Dennis had went 183 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 4: to California on his return back from overseas to military, 184 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 4: so he had been in California when he returned in 185 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 4: seventy Additionally, mister O'taro's watch was taken. She she mentioned 186 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 4: he had a nice watch on that was a military 187 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 4: type watch that was taken from mister Oto. And we 188 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 4: know Dennis said he kept that watch for years. Addition 189 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 4: to that, mister o'to had also been in the Air 190 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 4: Force and had had some relationships with people still there. 191 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 4: So you know, when when the timeframe is that she's 192 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 4: given us would have been shortly after that O'to murder, 193 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 4: So you know, of course that that would be on 194 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 4: my mind as well, that he had just retired from 195 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 4: from the Air Force. He's missing a watch, you know, 196 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 4: and Dennis's describing from what it sounds, you know, how 197 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 4: how gruesome the scene was at the Otaro Mergers. So 198 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 4: there there is just so much with what she's brought forth. Uh, 199 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 4: you know, I hope to to be able to meet 200 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 4: with her soon go over a lot of details. 201 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 9: Uh. 202 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 4: You know, I know from from going through a lot 203 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 4: of the things that we've researched, he did have a 204 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 4: lot of men's watches. Uh. There there was a tremendous 205 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 4: amount of jewelry recovered. So again it's it's good possibility. 206 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 4: So you know, the her her story to me is 207 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:40,119 Speaker 4: is very spot on matches what what I've learned, and 208 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 4: and again I think there's possibilities that that we might 209 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 4: be able to uh confirm her being being with him 210 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 4: through number one, the bag maybe that he had he 211 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 4: retained those things for a long time. Uh, We've got 212 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 4: pictures and descriptions of watches. So I'm looking forward to 213 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 4: to looking harder into what happened to her. And again 214 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 4: the phone calls, there's there's other victims out there that 215 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 4: we've learned had received different phone calls. Raider itself told 216 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 4: me that, like the Otaro's, he had called them at 217 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 4: one point, you know, basically confirming they were home and 218 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 4: seeing if a metal answered, stuff like that. So, uh, 219 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 4: there's a lot here that that that is really huge 220 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 4: to me. 221 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Dennis Raider the time. 222 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 3: I approached him and told him I was wanted in California, 223 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 3: needed some car, basically the same thing that I told 224 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 3: you tarrells Uh. We went through the house, kind of 225 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 3: cleaned it up. It's called the right hand earl. You 226 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 3: go from rover room, picked everything's up. That guy took 227 00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,119 Speaker 3: mister Tarrell's watch. I guess I took a radio. I 228 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 3: I forgot about that, but apparently I took a radio. 229 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 9: Why did you take these things? 230 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: I don't know. I have no idea. So you went 231 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 2: through Were you looking for something? What's a personal lands? Yes? 232 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: I take some personal ambs from there. 233 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 9: Did you take personal lives in every one of these incidents? 234 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 3: Uh? I did on the hedge. Uh, I don't remember 235 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 3: anything of Vicky's place the Cheryl's we got to watch 236 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 3: in the radio. I don't think I did any of rights. Uh, 237 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 3: Ryan's No, I don't think so. 238 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 9: Fox. 239 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 2: Yes, I picked some things from Fox because hit. 240 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: And miss speaking of that signature in my mind. And 241 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: I'd like to hear Cheryl and Dale jump in on this. 242 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: And Gina, did you ever find that driver's license or 243 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: that missing necklace or those missing clothes? 244 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 7: No? 245 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: What clothing specifically went missing? 246 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 7: It was a and I had received as a Christmas gift. 247 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: It was a good brawl, a red bra. 248 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 7: Uh, it was a Christmas prison of mine. 249 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: And the necklace do you remember the necklace? What was 250 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: that like? 251 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 7: Yes? It was It was on a long gold chain 252 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 7: and it was a circular that had several different rhinestones 253 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 7: in it, like the like kind of like a mother's 254 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 7: ring or something that was multicolored like ruby, emerald, diamond. 255 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 7: And it was in a cluster on a round circle. 256 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: And uh, you mentioned the red bra, the necklace and 257 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: the driver's license. Did you ever find your driver's license? 258 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 7: Never? 259 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: You know, it's very well known, Cheryl McCollum that driver's 260 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: licenses and jewelry and lingerie are prime souvenirs. Taken by 261 00:16:55,080 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: serial killers, and we know BTK took all of these 262 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: things from his victims. 263 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 5: Well, Jenna, you know we never left her purse without 264 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 5: some place where anyone could have access to it. So 265 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 5: what that argues is that she's correct, someone was in 266 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 5: the house and may even have been in the house 267 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 5: when she was there asleep, and the pocket book fully unattended. 268 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. We also know, speaking of the souvenirs, that 269 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: he would toy with his victims, he would stalk them 270 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 1: for a long time, call them, tamper with their phones. 271 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,919 Speaker 1: Everything that Gina is saying, and I have no reason 272 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: to doubt her because her story is very rich in detail. 273 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 6: It's very rich in detail. And like I said, I've 274 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 6: had a chance to read her emails, to talk to 275 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 6: her twice. Now hear her again today. Her story has 276 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 6: never changed. And one thing about Dennis Rader, I'd like 277 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,680 Speaker 6: to always point out, he gave himself a nickname in anything, 278 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 6: but he picked BTK for bind, torture, kill. Those are 279 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 6: action words, that's the order and what he did to 280 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 6: his victims. 281 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: It's a confession, okay, So what does that have to 282 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: do with what I just asked you about taking the 283 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 1: souvenirs and how her story fits exactly in with other 284 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: cases that he's already confessed to. 285 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 6: Because if you listen to the confessions, he tells you 286 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 6: exactly what he did, what he took, what he kept. 287 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 6: That's all public, that's all we know about the watch. 288 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: So when he. 289 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 6: Tells you what he's about, and then missus Rodriguez comes 290 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 6: on and says, this is what he told me, this 291 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 6: is the order that he wanted me to do something, 292 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 6: it finds he's telling her, I've got a bag and 293 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 6: if nobody can see it, nobody can hear it. We 294 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 6: need to be alone. I've got tools in here that 295 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 6: I'm going to use on you that goes right to 296 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 6: bind and torture. He distly saved her life. 297 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 3: Listen, I had a brief case whatever I have laid 298 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 3: around ropes, tape forwards, and threw that in their mind. 299 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 2: You know whatever you know that I had that I 300 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 2: brought in the house. 301 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 9: That you brought that to the bride roses. 302 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 2: Also, now there are some there. 303 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 3: I think it was the basic stuff that I don't 304 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 3: remember bringing total stuff like I did to some. 305 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 2: Of the others. Was this a skit that you had prepared, Yeah, 306 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 2: I can, Yes, I called him my good kid. 307 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: Another interesting point, and I want to circle back to 308 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: him musing about should his moniker be the poetic Strangler 309 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 1: because he wrote and recited a poem to Gina on 310 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: her last known conversation with him over the phone, where 311 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: he mentioned something about roses or red panties or pink 312 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 1: missing third line and without you, I'll be blue something 313 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: to that effect. Is that normal from b t K? 314 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: Sheriff Verdon? Is it true that he wanted to be 315 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: called considered being called the poetic Strangler? 316 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 4: He came up with many different options for yourself and 317 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 4: then settled on on BTK. Again, we know his relations 318 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 4: with with threes triangles. Uh, you know BTK is a three, 319 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 4: and that's that's the one he chose, and we believe 320 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 4: it's it's because of this fascination with the eternal triangle 321 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 4: and kind of the the whole basis of how he 322 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 4: lived his life. You know, to this day, when when 323 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 4: three comes up, he gets excited. So I think he 324 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 4: settled with BTK simply because of the threes. But he 325 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 4: considered many things, trying to trying to figure out what 326 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 4: would best suit him. 327 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: What do you make of that? Down to Joni Johnson 328 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: that he wished to be known as the quote poetic strangler. 329 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: That's quite the dichota. 330 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 8: Me, it really is. I mean I think that just 331 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 8: hearing the conversation he had with law enforcement or this 332 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 8: idea of what am I going to call myself? I 333 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,440 Speaker 8: think it just speaks to an incredible amount of narcissism, 334 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 8: you know, in terms of just and also you know, 335 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 8: unfortunately the level of enjoyment. I think he's experiencing around this, 336 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 8: and I think this really did consume his life, even 337 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 8: though he led his life in somewhat of a dichotomy. 338 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 8: I think he really was thinking about this all the time. 339 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: To DL Carson, the dichotomy of wanting to be known 340 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: as the poetic strangler. This guy's a brutal killer. He'll 341 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: wipe out a whole family and then dress himself up 342 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: in their clothes and bind himself with the ropes. I 343 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: don't know how he did it. One he was practically 344 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: hanging upside down and then took polary photos of himself. 345 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: I mean, why would he want to be known as 346 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,719 Speaker 1: anything connected to poetry? 347 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 5: Well, in many cases that I've handled, dealing with sex 348 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 5: offenders reflects that they have a fairly broad range of 349 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 5: interests and they're willing to try most anything. They're very 350 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 5: curious people from my perspective, and it's fascinating that when 351 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 5: they engage in this activity they want to memorialize it, 352 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 5: and hence the use of photographs so that they can 353 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 5: look at themselves looking at themselves. I've actually seen photographs 354 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 5: of individuals looking at themselves three times in the same 355 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 5: different photograph with mirrors. So there's a lot of pleasure 356 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 5: derived from that, revisiting the pleasure that they receive from 357 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 5: their behavior, even if it's just to themselves. So his 358 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 5: behavior doesn't surprise me at all. 359 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Danni's rater speaking with no emotion, 360 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: speaking in open court under oath. 361 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 9: Took some photographs or a kind of cameras to use fullard. 362 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 9: Did you keep those photographs? Yes? 363 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: The police probably go. 364 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 9: All right, what happened? 365 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 10: Then? 366 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 4: That was it? 367 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 3: That went took she went through, I tied it. She 368 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 3: was already dead, so I took good pictures of her 369 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 3: in different forms of bondage. And that's probably one got 370 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 3: me in trouble with the bonders and things. 371 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: You know sure, Iff Eddie Vernon joining us, the elected 372 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: sheriff in this jurisdiction who has now assembled a national 373 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 1: BTK Task Force, Sheriff Verdon. He told Gina he had 374 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: taken the bus. I find that significant because that changes 375 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: his hunting ground. The fact that he could have been 376 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 1: using a bus as transport, in my mind, changes a lot. 377 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: He's not just working in his little neighborhood as many 378 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: people thought that he was. 379 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 4: Oh, we know that's for a fact. We know that 380 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 4: he took a cab ride. You know, he left the 381 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 4: boy scout camp on at least two murders, using that 382 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 4: for an alibi or cover in one of those. And 383 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 4: again we know he did that because in almost every case, 384 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,719 Speaker 4: he took the victim's vehicle. So, you know, taking the 385 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 4: bus there at that location would keep his vehicle or 386 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 4: keep his you know, possibility being caught in that area. 387 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 4: And I'm sure his plan with match just what we've 388 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 4: seen in all the other ones where he planned on 389 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 4: using her vehicle to carry out the rest of what 390 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 4: he plotted to do. 391 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 5: Well, clearly that's exactly what he would say to her 392 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 5: when they got ready to leave. I took a bus. 393 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 9: Can we use your car. 394 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 5: I mean, it's pretty incredibly structured his conversation with Jenna. 395 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 5: And one thing I did want to mention is that 396 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 5: the use of orphanage in order to elicit symptomzy from 397 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,120 Speaker 5: a potential victim seems rather obvious. 398 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: Shere verdon have you ever considered that when he was 399 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 1: stationed in not one but two locations in Japan, he 400 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: may have committed murders there? 401 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 4: Absolutely. In fact, we've talked about that he makes notation 402 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 4: of taking a thirty two caliber smuggling it overseas with him, 403 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 4: and that at the time that he left to come 404 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 4: back to the States, he destroyed the gun to the 405 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 4: best of his ability and dropped that gun down an 406 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 4: AIRBN into military base. And we've got notations of him 407 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 4: prowling Japan bar girls, and one has an X behind it, 408 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 4: and we all know what X means when he does it. 409 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 4: That's factor X and normally, in fact, I don't think 410 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 4: I've ever found an X in anything that he had 411 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 4: written that does not relate back to an actual murder. 412 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 4: So you know, my belief is is something happened overseas 413 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 4: And when you have bar girl with an axe and Dennis, 414 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,919 Speaker 4: who is is very approval with money. Destroying a gun 415 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 4: when he could have sold it. I'm quite certain to 416 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 4: any other military member, to probably any any thug on 417 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 4: the street over there, why would he destroy that gup 418 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 4: unless it had been connected to a crime. 419 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what Genis said about what he was 420 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: wearing those khaki pants, because I believe doctor Joni Johnston 421 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: that he had. Of course, you're the shrink. I'm just 422 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: a trial lawyer. Some sort of a fixation with uniforms. 423 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: He had an ADT uniform, he had an Air Force uniform, 424 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: he had a dogcatcher's uniform, he had a Boy Scout 425 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: leader uniform. I mean it goes on. I mean, I've 426 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: got a whole list of uniforms that I believe that 427 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: he wore. And there he is with Gina Rodriguez in 428 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:20,719 Speaker 1: his khaki pants that very likely went with a uniform. What, 429 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: if anything, does that mean to you? 430 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 8: Well, when we think about you know, many sexually motivated 431 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 8: serial killers being a pretty obsessed with nomination in control, 432 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 8: particularly Dennis Rader, who's we've talked about monitors BTK. You know, 433 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 8: uniforms are symbol of authority, and it would make complete 434 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 8: sense to me that he will uniforms because that gives 435 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,240 Speaker 8: him this persona of authority that he can then portray 436 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 8: to the world, because he thinks of himself in that 437 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 8: way anyway. 438 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: Last, I want to speak to you about his desire 439 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: for notoriety. Take a listen to our cut one from 440 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: crime Online. 441 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 10: On the outside, Dennis Raider was a cub Scout leader 442 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 10: and the president of his church, count Christ Lutheran Church 443 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 10: in Wichita, Kansas. In reality, he was Dennis Raider, the 444 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 10: man who named himself BTK that stood for Buying Torture Kill. 445 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 10: BTK gained national attention during his murder spree that began 446 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 10: in nineteen seventy four with the killing of the Otero 447 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 10: family and seemingly ended in nineteen ninety one when he 448 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,479 Speaker 10: murdered sixty two year old de Davis by strangling her 449 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 10: with pantyhose. The BTK case was cold in March of 450 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,639 Speaker 10: two thousand and four, when he started communicating with local media. 451 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 10: Raider ended up sending a disc to KSASTV containing traceable 452 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 10: metadata that led investigators to his church and eventually to 453 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 10: his jeep and his house. Pleading not guilty at first, 454 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 10: he changed his pleading guilty and confessed to ten murders. 455 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 10: He was sentenced to ten life sentences at maximum security 456 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 10: prison in Kansas, But now there's new evidence connecting him 457 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 10: to additional murders, as well as an odd connection to 458 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 10: Brian Coberger, the suspect in the Idaho college murders. 459 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: You know, his desire for notoriety, Cheryl McCollum is overwhelming. 460 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: The bizarre puzzles and contacts he would have media, even 461 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: asking them to give him a moniker, I mean just bizarre. 462 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 6: Well, in nineteen seventy seven, he wrote a letter and 463 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 6: basically told the TV station, how many people do I 464 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 6: have to kill before I get national attention? 465 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: You know, I'm also curious about his use of uniforms, 466 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: how I could use that fascination he had to connect 467 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: him to other crimes. I'm curious about the equipment that 468 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: he had in that bag, as is Sheriff Verdon. So 469 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 1: many of the aspects of what she is saying that 470 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: happened to her tie back to BTK tampering with her 471 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: phone line. The bizarre phone calls someone trying to get 472 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: in the home when he knows a woman is there 473 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: with children, just as he did with the A Taro family. 474 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: Take a listen to Dennis Raider. 475 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: I thought, and the two kids, the two younger kids 476 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 3: were in the house. I didn't realize mister Karrell was 477 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 3: going to be there. 478 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 9: All right, How did you get into the house? 479 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 3: And I came to the back door, kept the phone lines, 480 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 3: waited the fact door had reservations about even going or 481 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 3: just walking away, but pre seeing the door open, and 482 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 3: I was in, all right. 483 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 9: So the door opened. Was it open for you? 484 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 3: I think one of the kids. I think the ju 485 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 3: or junior. Yes, the young girl, Joseph's opened the door. 486 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 3: He's probably let the dog out, as a dog is 487 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 3: in the house at that time. 488 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: So many of the aspects of what Gina is saying 489 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: that happened to her missing her driver's license that she 490 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:49,959 Speaker 1: always kept in her purse. I mean, I can tell 491 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: you where my license is right now, Losing an expensive 492 00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: bejeweled necklace, I don't know where, having laingerie take this 493 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: is exactly what bt K would be doing as he 494 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: led up to I'm murder Cheryl. 495 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 6: Well, Nancy. I want to make a correlation between the 496 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 6: uniforms and having basically the equipment to do what he 497 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 6: wanted to do. If he's in his ADT uniform, then 498 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 6: he can fool with a foone line and nobody's going 499 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 6: to question him. He's going to say he got called 500 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 6: out there. The van fits, the uniform fits, nobody's gonna 501 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,480 Speaker 6: question it. If he's doing his code enforcement job, he 502 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 6: could have a shovel or a dead animal that he's 503 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:37,200 Speaker 6: just killed, or all these things. It's immediately explained. If 504 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 6: he's in the boy Scout uniform, he could have a shovel, 505 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 6: a knife, a tarp, easily explained just based on the uniform. 506 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 6: There's no follow up place to need it. 507 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, I did Gina Ronriguez, who actually 508 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: hooked up met up with BTK buying torture killed Dennis 509 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: Raider in Wichita. She remembers the date distinctly because it 510 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,720 Speaker 1: would be her first Valentine's since she and her husband 511 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: had split up. She felt instinctively she had to get away. Now, 512 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: this was in a restaurant inside of them all. Do 513 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: you remember the restaurant, Gina, No, it was just. 514 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 7: A small restaurant and they served things like coffee and 515 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 7: frozen yogurt, and my classify it as an ice cream restaurant. 516 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: It was very casual, so you had the instinct to 517 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: get up and leave. Yeah, And there's no doubt in 518 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: my mind. Not only did he mention he hates Wichita politics, 519 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: he also says, Hey, I have a friend that works 520 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: sever at Hellsburg's and them all there in Wichita. I mean, 521 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: long story short, he's not from California. This guy's lying 522 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: to you clearly described for me that instinct that you 523 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: felt when you knew you had to get away from 524 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: this guy, and you actually feared he would follow you 525 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: to your car, and he did. He cried. 526 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 7: I just put my hand up, like stop right there. 527 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 7: I'm going to be late for work. And he just 528 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 7: said like, okay, well, I'm going to go back in 529 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 7: them all now to see my friend, but I'll call 530 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 7: you on Thursday. 531 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: When you look back on those two meetings and all 532 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: of the other strange incidents that occurred to you after 533 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: mating Bob White, what goes through your mind that I. 534 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 7: Was extremely fortunate that I didn't become one of those victims, 535 00:33:55,040 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 7: and that I had made a grave mistake by giving 536 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 7: someone my phone number and then agreeing to meet them. 537 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 7: And I regret that I didn't call the police. I 538 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:12,320 Speaker 7: thought about it after a few days after the last 539 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 7: phone call where he cited the poems to me. But 540 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 7: I really thought they would laugh at me because what 541 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 7: had he really done to me? But be weird, weird 542 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 7: enough that I would not want to see him or 543 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 7: even take that chance of seeing him again. And today 544 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 7: I am the extreme opposite. Back then, I was a 545 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 7: young twenty seven year old that had married right out 546 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 7: of high school. I went to nurses training. I was 547 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 7: extremely sheltered. I didn't even know what he was referring to. Today, 548 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 7: I'm very smart in street wise, and I lived my 549 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 7: life just the opposite. Every window in my house is locked. 550 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:56,319 Speaker 7: I had those sticks in all the windows. We have 551 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,800 Speaker 7: security around here, security like every door is locked. 552 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:09,920 Speaker 1: What is your message to other women right now that 553 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,919 Speaker 1: may have met or encountered Dennis Writer. 554 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 7: I would encourage them to come forward to report it, 555 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 7: that this is a very serious matter, and that they 556 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 7: can help others, maybe discover other victims or would be victims. 557 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 7: That I believe. I honestly believe that he did things 558 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 7: before nineteen seventy four, and I think he did things 559 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 7: after nineteen ninety ninety. For one thing, that Otaro's they 560 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 7: had black belts. Now here he had a gun, but 561 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 7: you know they had black belts. They were well trained. 562 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 7: And you know, I'm thinking he killed between the years 563 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 7: where Kansas had no death penalty. I find that out. 564 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 7: I think there was victims before. I think there were 565 00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 7: victims after. But if he were to confess to those, 566 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 7: it might make him eligible. 567 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: Exactly. I've often wondered, Sheriff Verden, why didn't this guy 568 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 1: get the death penalty? 569 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 4: Well, again, he kept the only confessions to the ten 570 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 4: during the non death family time in Kansas. And you know, 571 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 4: we know that after thirty hours of cooperation, he lawyered 572 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 4: up and he never talked again. I mean, Nancy, you 573 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,799 Speaker 4: know why anyone quits talking. If he confessed to all 574 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,440 Speaker 4: the crimes that he had done, and the way he 575 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 4: likes to talk, why would he stop talking and cooperating 576 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,800 Speaker 4: with the police. Why would he quit telling his story? 577 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 4: You know? Another another thing is we were told that 578 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,239 Speaker 4: he had applied for law enforcement and had gotten turned down, 579 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,440 Speaker 4: but he had he had tried to get into law enforcement. 580 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 4: We know he studied, or we were told he was 581 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 4: studied criminal law there while he was attending college in Wichita. 582 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 4: So you know, one thing that we know for sure 583 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,320 Speaker 4: is he wanted to terrorize Wichita, just like she reported 584 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 4: that that he was mad at politics in Wichita. He 585 00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 4: didn't hide any of the victims in Wichita. In fact, 586 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 4: he called and told the police where where to find him. 587 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 4: He was tormenting the police, which you know to me 588 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 4: as an indicator he was mad at the police. And 589 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 4: you know, if he had tried to get on and 590 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 4: wasn't hired, this would be a way that he could 591 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 4: he could get even with the police by doing all 592 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 4: these crimes and giving them all the tips and the 593 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 4: clues and they couldn't even figure out how to catch him. 594 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 4: You know that that had to be in his mind. 595 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 4: You know, that's why we know that. You know, with 596 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,000 Speaker 4: the royds of burying itself, he didn't want law enforcement 597 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,720 Speaker 4: knowing he was working outside of Wichita, but he wanted 598 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,839 Speaker 4: to terrorize them. So all of his victims in Wichita, 599 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 4: he either turned him in or put them in a 600 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 4: location where they would definitely be found and where it 601 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 4: would terrorize, just like she described his anger with politics 602 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 4: in Wichita. 603 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just gonna come to you, Cheryl, because 604 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: this is how you create a case. Dennis raider has 605 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: escaped the death penalty. He's killed at least ten people. 606 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: In fact, I just want you to hear Cheryl, and 607 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: I'll circle back. I just want you to hear what 608 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: he said about murdering the Otero family. And these are 609 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,720 Speaker 1: just a few his victims. 610 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 9: Listen, did he in fact suffocate and dies or on? 611 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 2: Not right away? No, sir, he didn't. What happened well 612 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 2: after that? I did miss this onto. 613 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 3: I had never strangled anyone before, so I really don't 614 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 3: know how much pressure you had to put on a 615 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 3: person or how long it would take. 616 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 9: But was she also tied up there? 617 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,839 Speaker 2: And yes, both her hands and their feet were tied up. 618 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 2: She was on the bed. 619 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 3: Where were the children, Well, Josephine was on the bed 620 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 3: and Junior was on the floor this time. 621 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 9: So we're talking first of all about Joseph Otero. So 622 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 9: you'd put the bag over his head and tied it 623 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,120 Speaker 9: and he did not die right away? Can you tell 624 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 9: me what happened in regards to Joseph? 625 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 3: And he moved over real quickly, and I think tore 626 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 3: a hole in the bag, and I could tell that 627 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 3: he was having some problems there that at that time 628 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 3: the whole family just went. They went panicked on me. 629 00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 3: So I worked pretty quick. I wouldn't you worked pretty quick? 630 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 7: Well? 631 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,879 Speaker 3: I mean I I strangled missus o'taro and she went 632 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 3: out or passed out. 633 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 2: I thought she was dead. She passed out. 634 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 3: Then I strangled uh Josephine. 635 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 2: She passed out or I thought she was dead and uh, 636 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,960 Speaker 2: and then I went over and put it and then 637 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 2: put a bag on. 638 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,759 Speaker 1: Juniors said, there are other instances where he just learned that. 639 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,839 Speaker 1: The victims started vomiting out of fear, and I. 640 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 3: Proceeded to tie her up. She got sick, threw up, 641 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 3: got our glass of water, covered her a little bit, 642 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 3: and then went had and tied her up, and then 643 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 3: put a bag bag overhead and strangled her. 644 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 9: All right, it was this a plastic bag? 645 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 3: Also, Yes, sir, I think it was, but I could 646 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 3: be wrong in that it was something. I'm sure it 647 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 3: was plastic bag. 648 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 9: Yeah, you say you put a bag overhead and strangled her. 649 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:57,840 Speaker 9: What did you strangle her with? 650 00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 2: I actually had think on that. 651 00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 3: I had tied tight her legs to the bedpost and 652 00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 3: worked up with the rope all the way up, and 653 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 3: then what I had left over, I looked. 654 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 9: Over her name, So you used this rope to. 655 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,000 Speaker 2: Strangle Yes, I would think of the same one that I. 656 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 1: Tied her body with and putting children in a bathroom 657 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: with toys and blankets to calm them down as he 658 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,240 Speaker 1: killed the mother, and I proceeded. 659 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,799 Speaker 3: To tie the kids up, and they started crying and 660 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 3: got real upset. So I said, oh, this is not 661 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 3: going to work, so we moved them to the bathroom. 662 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,319 Speaker 3: She helped me, and then I tied the door shut. 663 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 3: We put some toys and blankets and odds and ins 664 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:35,879 Speaker 3: and there for the kids, making the most comfortables that could. 665 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 3: Tied the we tied one of the bathroom door shuts 666 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 3: so they couldn't open it, and then we shoved She 667 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 3: went back and helped me shove the bed up against 668 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 3: the other bathroom door. 669 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: That's who we're talking about, and so far he has 670 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: escaped the death penalty. One more case ryl one more 671 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: murder that we can to him may make the difference. 672 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 6: And that is why this show today is so critical 673 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 6: to ask other witnesses to come forward, because if you 674 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 6: listen to that, the way he speaks just so matter 675 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 6: of fact, void of emotion. We know those similar things 676 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 6: from Delphi. 677 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 8: When we can hear him say down the hill. 678 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 6: He's not angry, he's not enraged, he's not out of 679 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 6: his mind. It's just almost autopilot. This is what we're doing. 680 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,759 Speaker 6: And when you hear that he tried to become a 681 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 6: police officer, you know, just like the Golden State Killer 682 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 6: and other people, Ky Berger, Coburger, because what do you do. 683 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:39,640 Speaker 6: As soon as you arrest somebody, you bind them, You 684 00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 6: put him in handcuffs. You have a way to again 685 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 6: stalk people in uniform. 686 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,640 Speaker 1: You know what's very freaky, Cheryl. If you look at 687 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: his sketches of young women, some of them look like 688 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: they may be even pre pubescent. They are bound, they 689 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:04,280 Speaker 1: have gags or scarfs over their mouths, and the look 690 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:10,840 Speaker 1: of fear in their eyes that he draws. He's drawing 691 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: victims that were like these victims he talks about vomiting. 692 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: They're so afraid they know they're going to die, and 693 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:25,240 Speaker 1: he captures that in his sketches. There are other victims. 694 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,879 Speaker 1: And what's amazing to me, Sheriff I recently spoke who 695 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 1: will remain nameless with a journalist who is in regular 696 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,800 Speaker 1: contact with BTK, and she has swallowed his bull hook 697 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 1: line and sinker. When I asked you, well, obviously he's 698 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 1: connected to Marrow, she says, oh, no, no, no, just 699 00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: the ten. And I said why and she says, well, 700 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 1: because that's what he told me. People believe him. You 701 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: believe him, Sherifford, and you believe that's all he killed. 702 00:43:56,520 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 4: You know, I have got him lying so many times. 703 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,720 Speaker 4: You know, you don't even have to look any further 704 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,480 Speaker 4: than you know some of the communication they did with 705 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,320 Speaker 4: Wichita where he plays out kind of what she said 706 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,440 Speaker 4: in his story he sent to them his father was 707 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,759 Speaker 4: killed in war, and he goes through basically what you 708 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,959 Speaker 4: would be looking for, what the profile, what he should 709 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,400 Speaker 4: have been versus what he was. So you know, again 710 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 4: believe in what he says is impossible. He is, you know, 711 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,440 Speaker 4: he is correcting a lot of things, and he's misleading 712 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:38,240 Speaker 4: in a lot of ways. 713 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: Well to all defendits, do that, don't you think, Sheriff 714 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: heard they weave in a little of the truth and 715 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,240 Speaker 1: their story, probably so they can keep their story straightening 716 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: the rest of his total bs. Sheriff Eddie Vernon joining 717 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: us with Cheryl McCollum, doctor Jonie Johnson, Deal Carson and 718 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:58,320 Speaker 1: our special guest Gina Rodriguez, who narrowly escaped the hands 719 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,720 Speaker 1: of BTK buying torture ca old Ennis Rader Sheriff Verdin. 720 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,799 Speaker 1: What do you believe is the best tip line for 721 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: people to call in if they believe they have encountered BTK. 722 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,879 Speaker 4: Again, They can go to the Osage County Sheriff website 723 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,840 Speaker 4: and leave us a message on That would be the 724 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,719 Speaker 4: best because that way we can keep track of them 725 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,240 Speaker 4: and return those calls and follow up on those leads. 726 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,800 Speaker 4: There's also a line. I'll let Cheryl give that information 727 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,359 Speaker 4: through the task Force. 728 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,800 Speaker 6: National Cold Case task Force at gmail dot com. 729 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 4: Just make sure you get us that information. 730 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: How many victims are out there that we don't know 731 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: about yet? Victims at the hands of the dogcatch a 732 00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:53,920 Speaker 1: turnkiller Dennis Raider. We wait as justice unfolds about right now, 733 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: he's having his morning coffee, probably reading the paper on 734 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: the internet. I hope you listen to this. Goodbye friend, 735 00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 1: m