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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. One of my favorite things

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Speaker 1: to do, particularly when I'm back home down in New

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Speaker 1: Orleans and my family down the are is if I

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Speaker 1: ever have an opportunity, I love to go visit old homes,

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Speaker 1: particularly those that are opened during the holiday season. You

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Speaker 1: really get to appreciate the beauty of them, because the

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Speaker 1: homes down there are so very old, and you can

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Speaker 1: tell that people love them at one point in time,

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Speaker 1: or loved the idea of them. They dumped a lot

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Speaker 1: of money into them, maybe one hundred, one hundred and fifty,

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Speaker 1: maybe one hundred and seventy five years ago. It comes

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Speaker 1: through It kind of echoes down through time and you

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Speaker 1: can see where people lived a life. I think that

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Speaker 1: that's quite remarkable. It really is. It's not like something

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Speaker 1: that was thrown up recently, you know, and has no

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess the word is patina on it.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's a dwelling that people existed in. But today,

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Speaker 1: I gotta say, there is a homicide that has occurred

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Speaker 1: inarguably one of the wealthiest areas in the metro Detroit

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Speaker 1: City area up there, and it involves an old house,

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Speaker 1: a house that was renown, a house that was loved

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Speaker 1: and a house that was known for hospitality, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I think truly that's one of the great things that

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Speaker 1: truly makes a home an inviting place. We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk today about the homicide of doctor DeVaughn Hoover. I'm

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Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags Dave. I

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Speaker 1: started reading this story about doctor Hoover up in Detroit,

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Speaker 1: and we hear a lot about Detroit and how dangerous

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Speaker 1: it is and for a long long time, and I

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Speaker 1: feel I feel sorry because Detroit is one of the

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Speaker 1: grand cities of America. It was for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and there was a lot of wealth up there for

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Speaker 1: a long time, and you can still see remnants of

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Speaker 1: that if you ever visit visit Detroit. You go out

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Speaker 1: by the lake and you see some of these mansions

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Speaker 1: that people in dwelled all those years ago, that had

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Speaker 1: just wealth that many of us cannot even begin to imagine.

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Speaker 1: And I think that that's what we're dealing with here,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about I don't know if the term palatial

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Speaker 1: is appropriate here, but it's certainly striking. This home is

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Speaker 1: it's up there. As my granny used to say, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't want to have to push a vacuum cleaner through it.

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Speaker 2: Oil Boy, nine bedrooms, twelve thousand square feet. Beautiful home,

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Speaker 2: but it is not a new man that was thrown

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Speaker 2: up in the last six months. Doctor Devon Hoover is

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Speaker 2: one of these men that people have nothing bad to say.

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Speaker 1: Nothing.

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Speaker 2: You can find something negative about anybody, but when it

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Speaker 2: comes to doctor Devon Hoover, he was loved by his patients,

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Speaker 2: He was loved by his neighbors. One of his neighbors

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Speaker 2: said that when he first bought the house, that it

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Speaker 2: was doctor Hoover who came over and introduced himself and said, now,

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Speaker 2: if you haven't owned an older, big home before, there

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Speaker 2: are some things you need to know. And he said

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Speaker 2: that they became friends because he hadn't owned a home

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Speaker 2: like that, and they do require a lot more attention

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Speaker 2: than you're used to doing around a home. The payoff,

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Speaker 2: of course, as you mentioned palatial, that was actually how

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Speaker 2: the home was referred to, and doctor Hoover opened it

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Speaker 2: up to the community to raise money for all types

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Speaker 2: of charities and things that needed attention. He opened his

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Speaker 2: doors and said do it here, it's my place, and

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Speaker 2: doctor Hoover, he's a neurosurgeon, which Joe, just give me

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Speaker 2: the run the net explanation of what is a neurosurgent.

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Speaker 1: The way I look at specialties in medicine, and one

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Speaker 1: of the ways that many people that either work in

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Speaker 1: medicine or work around the periphery of medicine. When you

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Speaker 1: hear what the occupation is of any particular physician, you

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Speaker 1: want to know what they're specially is, so you know,

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Speaker 1: you can have like internal medicine people, you can have

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Speaker 1: mergency room doctors, you can have psychiatrists, you can have

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Speaker 1: orthopedic specialists. But when it comes to neurosurgery, if you're

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Speaker 1: measuring it by the length of time that it takes

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Speaker 1: to make it through your postdoctoral training, your residency in medicine,

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Speaker 1: it's probably, to say the very least the most robust.

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Speaker 1: So just imagine it this way. You've probably done four

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Speaker 1: years as an undergraduate, and you've got a bachelor's degree

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Speaker 1: and more than likely pre med or biology or chemistry

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Speaker 1: or biochem or some science. Then you go to medical school.

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Speaker 1: Well that's going to take you four years right well,

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Speaker 1: dependent upon the program at minimum. When you're talking about neurosurgery.

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Speaker 1: That this is after you've completed your four years in

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Speaker 1: medical school. You're staring down the barrel of at least

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Speaker 1: at minimum six years. Just wrap your brain around that

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Speaker 1: for a second. You're talking about six plus years. And

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Speaker 1: some do subspecialties once they are complete with an actual

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Speaker 1: neurosurgery residency. And there are some people that will do

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Speaker 1: let me see how kind of break it down, they'll

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Speaker 1: do like a general surgery residency, which is a few

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Speaker 1: years in and of itself, is rather robust itself, and

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Speaker 1: then they'll go into neurosurgery. There are some people that

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Speaker 1: will do neurosurgery, and there are certain people that are

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Speaker 1: also neurologists, which is different as well. They treat people

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Speaker 1: externally for head trauma and spinal trauma and those sorts

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Speaker 1: of things, kind of measuring if you've ever had concussion

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Speaker 1: or something like that, and the doctor comes in and

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Speaker 1: they're checking your neuros and they'll sit here, squeeze my fingers.

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Speaker 1: How many fingers are my holding up? And they'll do

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Speaker 1: all these measurements, and they'll do imaging and all that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. Well, doctor Hoover, he would have had

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Speaker 1: to do all of that plus he's actually the guy

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Speaker 1: that goes in and operates on the brain. And in

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Speaker 1: his particular case, he specialized in the neck and in

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Speaker 1: the spine, and so that's his area. So if you

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Speaker 1: had any kind of spinal trauma or neck trauma, which

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Speaker 1: spine neck essentially the same thing where you have the

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Speaker 1: brain stem that comes out of the backside of the brain,

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Speaker 1: all right, and then it turns literally turns into the

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Speaker 1: spinal cord that stands down through the cervical vertebra and

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Speaker 1: then through the thoracic vertebra the lumbar and so it

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Speaker 1: controls It's kind of like the neuro pathway. It's the

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Speaker 1: big highway that controls all of the little nerve endings

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Speaker 1: that extend out through the body. So at any of

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Speaker 1: those levels you see people that are say paraplegics, are udroplegics,

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Speaker 1: and dependent upon where those injuries have taken place on

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Speaker 1: the spine dictates how their body is going to be compromised.

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Speaker 1: So he would go in and these people are fascinating

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Speaker 1: to me, and they're having to do like microsurgery on

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Speaker 1: these very very delicate tissues. That's how skilled this guy was.

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Speaker 2: All I can think of is when Judge Smells looks

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Speaker 2: at Danny and Caddyshack and says, well, the world needs

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Speaker 2: ditch diggers too, Boy, that's where I am. If I

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Speaker 2: was faced with those choices, Joe, I would be on

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Speaker 2: the ditch diggers side. But I don't even understand two

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Speaker 2: thirds of what you just said.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with ditchdiggers man. And as Judge Smail says,

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Speaker 1: the world needs them. But the thing about doctor Hoover,

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Speaker 1: the fact that he did this, he was essentially married

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Speaker 1: to his work. And you'll find many people that are

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Speaker 1: like this, that operate at that high level. There's no

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Speaker 1: way I could do it. I don't have the intellectual capability.

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Speaker 1: And you know, sometimes this is what's amazing about him.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's the case with every neurosurgeon. Don't

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Speaker 1: get me wrong, don't misquote me. Many times they're so

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Speaker 1: very intense. Have you ever met somebody that's so very

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Speaker 1: intellectually intense that it almost seems like they'll brush you off,

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Speaker 1: or they don't have time for you, or maybe they

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Speaker 1: don't have a good bedside manner if they're a physician.

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Speaker 1: That's not Devon Hoover. He had a way about him,

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Speaker 1: that his patients, these people that he treated, genuinely liked

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Speaker 1: this guy. And by extension, he's got this beautiful home

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Speaker 1: that he's probably dumped. You can only imagine how much money,

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Speaker 1: because it's not just once you have an old home,

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Speaker 1: just to upkeep alone, and can you imagine on twelve

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Speaker 1: thousand square feet just to upkeep along is a real burden.

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Speaker 1: But he's inviting people to his home. He was regarded

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Speaker 1: as kind of a warm, hospitable person. And the horror

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Speaker 1: of this case is the fact that the house is

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Speaker 1: the site of this a place that probably brought a

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Speaker 1: lot of joy. I can only imagine just looking at

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Speaker 1: this place externally, how beautiful this thing would have been decorated,

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Speaker 1: probably at Christmas time. I'm sure it was striking. It

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Speaker 1: was probably if they have a tour of homes, it

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Speaker 1: was probably on the tour of homes warm and inviting.

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Speaker 1: And it's something so horrible could happen to this man

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Speaker 1: that was so beloved and so skilled at what he did.

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Speaker 1: And it's not just hospitality and his outreach to the community.

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Speaker 1: It's the fact that Dave he could go in and

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Speaker 1: he could actually aid in the repair and recovery of

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Speaker 1: people that had sustained catastrophic injuries. Every article that I

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Speaker 1: have read about doctor Hoover's homicide has included the word,

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Speaker 1: and it's a compound word, crawl space. That word sends

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Speaker 1: a chill up my spine every time I hear it,

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Speaker 1: because I got to tell you, the first thing I

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Speaker 1: think about when I hear crawl space is John Wayne Gacy.

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Speaker 1: I always think about the bodies that were buried beneath

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Speaker 1: his house in the crawl space, when he victimized all

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Speaker 1: those young men for so many years. But that's not

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Speaker 1: the case in doctor Hoover's homicide. He's actually found Dave

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Speaker 1: in a unique location, in this beautiful home. He's found

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Speaker 1: in the attic crawl space.

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Speaker 2: This is a man who lives alone. Fifty three year old.

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Speaker 2: He is single. He's a single minded kind of fella.

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Speaker 2: He was born in Indiana. He was the fourth child

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Speaker 2: of seven and he was the only boy in his family.

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Speaker 2: Before he went to college, he worked on a dairy farm.

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Speaker 2: The guy that became one of the best of the

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Speaker 2: best neurosurgeon. His family and friends were a priority in

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Speaker 2: his life. There was a quote from his obituary he

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Speaker 2: rarely missed a Hoover family event and made the drive

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Speaker 2: to Indiana frequently to visit his parents and sisters, often

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Speaker 2: playing with his many nieces and nephews. He spent quality

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Speaker 2: time with many friends and enjoyed traveling with them to

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Speaker 2: unique places around the world. Now, when you put that

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Speaker 2: with what we talked about, how his neighbors talked about him.

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Speaker 2: One neighbor actually said for a man small in stature,

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Speaker 2: he was indeed larger than life. Yet he didn't show

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Speaker 2: up for a family event in Indiana as expected, and

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Speaker 2: because he was always in tune with his family, when

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Speaker 2: he didn't show up, the family called for the police

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Speaker 2: to go by. Police show up at this palatial home,

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Speaker 2: this twelve thousand square foot nine bedroom estate that was

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Speaker 2: a showplace, and they saw enough that led them to

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Speaker 2: find you mentioned crassbas in the attic. How does a

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Speaker 2: fifty three year old man with no enemies end up

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Speaker 2: dead in the attic?

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Speaker 1: Cross base At the time of our taping here, we

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Speaker 1: still don't know who did this. Okay, they released a

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Speaker 1: bit of tantalizing information here, and I'm so glad you

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Speaker 1: picked up on this. They said that he was not

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Speaker 1: just dragged to this location where his body was finally found, David.

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Speaker 1: They said he was dragged face down, and you're thinking, well,

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Speaker 1: how can you actually arrive at that conclusion. That information

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Speaker 1: is actually coming from the Wayne County Medical Examiner's Office, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is one of the most storied offices

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Speaker 1: in the history of forensic pathologists. This is actually the

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Speaker 1: place where doctor Verner Spitz did a lot of his work.

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Speaker 1: And doctor Spitz is one of the co authors of

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Speaker 1: what we regard as our bible in forensic science medical

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Speaker 1: legal investigation of death, and it was first published back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six. So the place that did his examination,

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Speaker 1: that did the examination on doctor Hoover's remains is a

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Speaker 1: top location for assessment of trauma, okay, as it applies

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Speaker 1: to post mortem assessment. And what they're saying is that

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Speaker 1: he was found in this crawl space, but he had

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Speaker 1: been drug there face down. So when people are saying

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Speaker 1: drug face down, first off, what are we thinking, Well,

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Speaker 1: we're thinking that perhaps there was some kind of manifestation

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Speaker 1: on his body that would give an indication first off,

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Speaker 1: that he was drug Well, how do we conclude that, Well,

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Speaker 1: if blood is streaked in a particular way. Okay, perhaps

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Speaker 1: that's the case. Say that it's on one contact surface

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Speaker 1: and not on the other, and you have this kind

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Speaker 1: of strided appearance of say, for instance, blood that's been

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Speaker 1: left behind. And when I say strided, that literally means streaks, okay,

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Speaker 1: or kind of linear streak. Another thing, was there any

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Speaker 1: kind of post mortem trauma to the body? Well, what

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Speaker 1: would that mean? Well, the body can be scraped in

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Speaker 1: a post mortem state. You can actually knock away the

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Speaker 1: top layer of skin that won't have the same kind

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Speaker 1: of abrasian appearance that we have during life, where it

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Speaker 1: becomes red and irritated. And we've all fallen at some

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Speaker 1: point in our time and skinned our knees or skinned

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Speaker 1: our elbows, and we know what an abrasion looks like.

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Speaker 1: And of course we know that the dead don't bruise,

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Speaker 1: but you can have markings on a body that would

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Speaker 1: give you an indication of some kind of what we

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Speaker 1: refer to as post mortem trauma. Now, a third way

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Speaker 1: that this could happen, and perhaps one of the most chilling,

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Speaker 1: is that we wonder well had post mortem changes begun

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Speaker 1: to take place to the point where there was a

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Speaker 1: reorientation of the body from where it had initially laid

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Speaker 1: to where it was finally found resting. And what I

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Speaker 1: mean by that, one of the things that we would

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Speaker 1: look for is deposition of post mortem lividity. In other words,

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Speaker 1: that settling of blood. Did you have, say, for instance,

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Speaker 1: a presentation where the blood had settled on the front

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Speaker 1: side of the body, Okay, what's referred to as the

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Speaker 1: anterior aspect, And maybe there was no presentation on the back,

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Speaker 1: but yet you've got post mortem trauma on the back

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Speaker 1: that gives you an indication that they were initially laying

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Speaker 1: in one position and then drug vis v the other

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Speaker 1: side of the body. It could be flip flopped either way.

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Speaker 1: So we don't know a lot right now at this

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Speaker 1: point to kind of put a fine point on that.

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Speaker 1: But the reason that's so chilling is you begin to think, well,

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Speaker 1: whoever did this to him, and what they did to

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Speaker 1: him was quite shocking. Whoever did this to him? Did

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Speaker 1: they sit there with a body while post mortem changes

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Speaker 1: began to take place, and that there was evidence regarding

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Speaker 1: that on the examination of the body or at the scene.

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Speaker 1: Was that measured in any way? Because what's key here

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Speaker 1: is kind of and I always fall back to this

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Speaker 1: as the post mortal interval, that time that has elapsed

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Speaker 1: since doctor Hoover unfortunately drew his last breath to the

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Speaker 1: point in which he was moved, and then beyond that

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Speaker 1: to the point in which he was discovered. How long

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Speaker 1: had he actually been down? And that's going to be

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Speaker 1: key in this case. Who would have access to him

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Speaker 1: in this grand home in which he dwells. Who would

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Speaker 1: purpose to do this kind of harm to this man

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Speaker 1: that had done so much for so many people over

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Speaker 1: the years, who was beloved, Who would traumatize him to

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Speaker 1: this degree? We do know this, whoever perpetrated this crime

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Speaker 1: felt comfortable enough to take a handgun and shoot doctor

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Speaker 1: Hoover execution style in the head twice. But when you

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Speaker 1: see a big house, you ride by it, you look

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Speaker 1: at it, at least I do, and I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: what in the world goes on in there? You think

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Speaker 1: what kind of history in dwells those walls, What has

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Speaker 1: that structure born witness to over the years. And when

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Speaker 1: I think attic in a big home like that, you

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Speaker 1: always think of some kind of scary movie or something

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Speaker 1: where you've got mannequins, you know, in dwelling the area

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Speaker 1: and old boxes and all that sort of thing. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I think that the attic in this place

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Speaker 1: was probably a storage location that doctor Hoover would have

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Speaker 1: gone into regularly. He's probably always decorating his home. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: you think around the holidays he's going to be inviting

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Speaker 1: people over. Maybe kept his his Christmas decorations or Easter

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Speaker 1: decorations or those sorts of things up in the attic

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Speaker 1: so you'd have easy access to them.

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Speaker 2: Joe, let me back up for a second. Let me

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Speaker 2: get back to this. I'm curious as to how this happens,

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Speaker 2: and you're gonna have to fill in the blanks.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: We've got doctor Hoover, his family asks the police to

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Speaker 2: go by and do a welfare check. When they get there,

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Speaker 2: we don't know if there was anybody there when they

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Speaker 2: got there. We know the police said there was no

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Speaker 2: forced entry, and they believe that doctor Hoover knew who

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Speaker 2: did this to him. So staying with that, I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to picture what did the police see when they got

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Speaker 2: in there that led them to the attic, Because obviously

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Speaker 2: you mentioned the person that did this, they felt comfortable

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Speaker 2: enough in the home to shoot him dead. In one

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Speaker 2: place and to drag his body you mentioned face down.

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Speaker 2: I mean, who does that if you care about somebody,

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Speaker 2: even if you have done this, all I could think

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Speaker 2: of is dragging this person upstairs with his head hitting

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Speaker 2: every stair along the way.

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Speaker 1: You know, you hear us talk a lot in forensics

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Speaker 1: about drag marks and those sorts of things. As I

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Speaker 1: had mentioned, or I had alluded to, doctor Hoover sustained

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Speaker 1: massive head trauma. He actually sustained two gunshot wounds to

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Speaker 1: the head.

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Speaker 2: One of those wasn't closed and the other one was

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Speaker 2: how do they know that, Joe? How do they determine this.

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Speaker 1: The way this is determined? First off, if you look

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Speaker 1: at the one that they're referring to as an indeterminate distance,

321
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Speaker 1: which what that means is it's and dependent upon the

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Speaker 1: weapon that's used. You have to kind of qualify that

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Speaker 1: when you say that anything that's essentially about eighteen inches

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Speaker 1: away from the point of impact, you're not going to

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Speaker 1: have any kind of sid deposition or powder deposition around

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Speaker 1: the wound. You're certainly not going to have what's referred

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Speaker 1: to as like a gas injury, where you'll get kind

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Speaker 1: of a stell eight wound that you see with like

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Speaker 1: press contact stell eate like stellar. Okay, that's where it

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Speaker 1: comes from. Star shape here people say star shaped wound

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Speaker 1: because the skin kind of tears when that happens. Well,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to have that presentation with indeterminate range.

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Speaker 1: That means that they will be shot from some distance

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Speaker 1: and you don't know. You still don't know anything about sequencing.

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Speaker 1: Some people will say, well, they've shot at a distance

336
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Speaker 1: and then someone moves in and shoots them close. Well,

337
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,959
Speaker 1: you don't know that. You can have individuals that are

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Speaker 1: actually executed with a contact gunshot wound and then just

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Speaker 1: for the coup de gra if, you will, in this

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Speaker 1: person's mind, they're going to shoot them again. And this

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Speaker 1: is as they've moved away from the body. So you

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Speaker 1: can't there's no way you can go back and look

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Speaker 1: at this and say well, this was actually the sequence

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Speaker 1: of events, unless you just have somebody that just pops

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Speaker 1: up and says, well, this is what happened. But no

346
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 1: evidence of that distant wound. But the other wound that

347
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,200
Speaker 1: they talk about, there's actually a muzzling print that's left behind,

348
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Speaker 1: and what that means is that when the muzzle of

349
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Speaker 1: the weapon that means the end of the barrel actually

350
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Speaker 1: contacts the surface of the skin, you will get an

351
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:04,200
Speaker 1: impression and it's really impressive to see from a forensic standpoint.

352
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 1: You can actually see an impression of the structure of

353
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Speaker 1: the barrel underneath many times, and sometimes you'll actually see

354
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Speaker 1: a circular ring around the area as well. That will

355
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Speaker 1: lead you to conclude that this weapon was so close

356
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 1: that when it was discharged with such force, it actually

357
00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,919
Speaker 1: left an imprint on the skin of the end of

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Speaker 1: the weapon. And it's almost like a negative image, you

359
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, like a photograph, And so that

360
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Speaker 1: gives you proximity, doesn't it in that particular case, And

361
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Speaker 1: it also gives you an indication of intimacy that this

362
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Speaker 1: individual whoever fired this weapon had the ability to get

363
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Speaker 1: that close to doctor Hoover when they discharge the weapon,

364
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Speaker 1: and when you begin to think about things like intimacy.

365
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Speaker 1: Here's something that's quite interesting from an investigative standpoint. When

366
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Speaker 1: he's found, he's found unclosed. Now he's covered in several

367
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Speaker 1: layers of blankets. I think there's a carpet that's involved

368
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Speaker 1: that he was covered with. But when we are nude,

369
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: we are at our most vulnerable because you're not covered,

370
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,959
Speaker 1: your shame involved perhaps or they've made you take your

371
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Speaker 1: clothes off at gunpoint. And this is kind of a

372
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: dehumanization thing that takes place many times. So you've got

373
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Speaker 1: him in the state, and he's in the state when

374
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Speaker 1: he is found. Back to how they began to understand

375
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Speaker 1: what the point of origin is and that is where

376
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 1: the event may have taken place. There's no indication of that,

377
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: but they know that he was drug so that tells

378
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 1: us that there's evidence that there is perhaps a blood

379
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 1: trail leading to the attic. And one thing that really

380
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Speaker 1: resonates with me, David, correct me if I'm wrong. Didn't

381
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Speaker 1: you make reference to the fact that he was diminutive

382
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Speaker 1: in size. He's kind of a smaller guy.

383
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Speaker 2: A neighbor had said that for a man small in stature,

384
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 2: he was indeed larger than life, So that makes us

385
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:01,520
Speaker 2: he was not a big man.

386
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Speaker 1: Yeah, So where are you going to drag him unless

387
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: perhaps you've dehumanized him, where you're going to treat him

388
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: like an animal that you shot, or that the person

389
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: that did this may not have the physical strength to

390
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: put their hands or put their arms beneath them and

391
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 1: cradle them, or maybe they just find this level of

392
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 1: trauma and gore, because it would have been a significant

393
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: amount of gored. And when I say that, I mean

394
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 1: because anytime there's trauma to the head where you have

395
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,280
Speaker 1: blood and certainly many times you'll have brain matter that's

396
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: actually extruding through the head through the injuries, people might

397
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: not want to get that on themselves. So maybe that's

398
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: the reason you drug him up there. Here's the thing.

399
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 1: Whoever put him in that location, they knew about that location.

400
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: They knew that that attic cross space existed. That's intimate knowledge.

401
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: And the fact that I want to go back to

402
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 2: the gunshots to the head because you made a couple

403
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: of statements there, and I'm curious because we do have

404
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 2: two shots, and to the police report or the autopsy,

405
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,439
Speaker 2: he had abrasions on his face suggesting he was in

406
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: a prone position with the left side of his face

407
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 2: resting against some kind of surface when he was shot.

408
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 2: Could they determine, based on this and other factors, were

409
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 2: both of these shots potentially fatal or was one shot?

410
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: Could you determine that this shot wounded in but this

411
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 2: was the kill shot?

412
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, perhaps anytime the head is involved, and gunfire is involved,

413
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: you're going to have certainly the potential for fatal trauma.

414
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: It's the one area of the body where even a

415
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: glancing gunshot wound to the head can lead to a

416
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: fatal outcome. The trick is and kind of the measure

417
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: that forensic pathologists will look at this on balance. Most

418
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: of the time they'll say, well, what created the most

419
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: trauma in this particular case. They'll look at one injury

420
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 1: and they say, is this potentially a survivable injury? Say,

421
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 1: if it just clipped one area of the brain, if

422
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: he had gotten medical treatment, could he have survived this?

423
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,640
Speaker 1: Whereas with the other one, maybe it passed through an

424
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: area that controls the autonomic nervous system. Okay, where you

425
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: just know that heartbeat is going to see, respiration is

426
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,159
Speaker 1: going to cease. All is so traumatic And not to

427
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: mention if there is a muzzle stamp on this one injury,

428
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: You're not just going to have dave the gunshot wound,

429
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,719
Speaker 1: which is bad enough that you're dealing with that's going

430
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 1: to create this channel through the brain. You're also going

431
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 1: to be fighting against things like say, for instance, the

432
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 1: bone being blown apart in there and it creates additional

433
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: little satellite fragments are shrapnel bone trapnel actually is what

434
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: it turns out to be, and so it injures the

435
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: brain in that way. And also you have to factor

436
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: in if it's that close, you might have gas injuries.

437
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: So with the gas injuries, you have hot gas, and

438
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 1: we all know what hot gas does. That rapidly expands,

439
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: it goes into the cranial vault, and you'll have this

440
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 1: massive fracturing that takes place in the skull. So you've

441
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: gotten multiple things that multiple layers here that are occurring

442
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: that any number of these scenes could be fatal in

443
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 1: and of himself.

444
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 2: Now we know that he was wrapped in a blank

445
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 2: you mentioned this, and the actual order they said that

446
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,640
Speaker 2: he was wrapped in a sheet, then carpeting or then

447
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: a rug, and then carpeting was laid over the top

448
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: of his body in that cross space. And we know

449
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 2: that he was shot and killed when he was naked

450
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: with one sock dark sock on his foot. You mentioned

451
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 2: being humiliated by being nude and being taken down like this.

452
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 2: Would there have been when the police are on the

453
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 2: scene trying to figure everything out, would they be taking

454
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 2: like clippings under his fingernails to see if there was

455
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 2: a little bit of a fight or anything.

456
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, they would, and typically that's going to happen at

457
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: the more people will see us at scenes where we

458
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 1: bag the hands, and we've talked about that in previous episodes.

459
00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: But our hands are those things through which we defend ourselves.

460
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: It's those things through which we just from a tactile

461
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: sense that we sense the world around us. I mean

462
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: even the small children. We're touching things. Okay, it's an

463
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: extension of our brain essentially, and we're touching things and

464
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: that information is coming in. So the hands are bagged

465
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 1: traditionally at the scene, and then when we get the

466
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: body into a controlled environment at the morgue, we'll do

467
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: nail scrapings. Okay, we'll do the nail scrapings. We'll catch

468
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 1: all of the debris that are under the fingernails because

469
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: this is very intimate event. Remember he's nude. And then

470
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: we'll do nail clippings to look if anything is there

471
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: in the clippings themselves. And they will probably believe it

472
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: or not. They would probably do a gunshot residue test

473
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,679
Speaker 1: on his hands. People might not think about that, but

474
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: we actually do to see if, for instance, if there

475
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: was any way let's say, say, for instance, the gunshot

476
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: wounds to the back of the head, which we think

477
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: that it approximates. Those two gunshot ones are essentially in

478
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: the rear word areas of the head. If he's got

479
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: his hands up okay, behind his head, and he shot

480
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: in the head, that can be a valuable piece of

481
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: information as to his posture, what his relationship was with

482
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: the individual that shot him, a physical relationship from the

483
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 1: end of the muzzle to his body, and you might

484
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: have soot deposition on the hands, so you'll do that.

485
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: And of course here's the most glaring thing many people

486
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: don't actually think about. Dave. I don't know if you've

487
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: thought about this, but even though he's a male, he's nude.

488
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: Guess what we're gonna do. Actually gonna do a rape kit.

489
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: We're gonna do rape kit on him. And some people

490
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: don't think that we do those on males, but we do.

491
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: We actually do.

492
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: It actually makes sense when you think about the fact

493
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: that he is naked and rolled up in a blanket.

494
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 2: If he was shot in the back of the head

495
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 2: due to a bad debt and left you, they wouldn't

496
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: take trouble to hide him orning else, because obviously whoever

497
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: did this Joe did not take a lot of time

498
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: to clean up or anything else. Because police were able

499
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: to go there on a welfare check and find his

500
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: body in the attic. They were able to do that

501
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 2: in a welfare check, So obviously they didn't walk in

502
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: and go, hey, everything looks fine here.

503
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: And turn around taking it on the heel. No, no, no,

504
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: they saw evidence of something had occurred in this environment.

505
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was quite horrific when these police officers

506
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: showed up and they're looking through the house or doing

507
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: a safety check. It's a welfare check. They can you

508
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: imagine if it's two of them. I have this vision

509
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: in my mind, this image in my mind of one

510
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: guy looking at the other guy and saying, oh, this

511
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: doesn't look good. And then they followed the blood trail

512
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 1: and it leads into some small door up in the

513
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 1: attic area, and there they find his remains in there.

514
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: And here's a big piece. Remember what you said early on,

515
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: they said there was no signs of forced entry at

516
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: this place, so that gives you an indication that the

517
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: individual may have been there before that they knew the doctor.

518
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: And also we go back to this idea of covering

519
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: up the body. Why do you want to cover the body?

520
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: What's your purpose for cut? You just executed this man.

521
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 1: Why are you going to go and not just covering once?

522
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: You're going to layer him. It's almost like you're tucking

523
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: him in. Why are you going to put all these

524
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: layers on top of him? What's your purpose you're trying

525
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: to hide him? Well, we know that you've taken him

526
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: to the cross space up there, but why go to

527
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: all of that trouble? Again? If his face was covered,

528
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: we can assume that it was. Many times, face covering

529
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: is associated with an intimate act because the individual does

530
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: not want to look the individual in the face that

531
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: they've just done this great harm to.

532
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 2: Oh, now that makes sense. I'm actually I was confused

533
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: about how a guy that is naked with one sock on,

534
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: shot twice in the head, then drug on his face

535
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 2: up to his what will be a temporary final resting place.

536
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: But then the perpetrator takes the time to roll him

537
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: up in three layers of blanket and carpet and then

538
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 2: placing him in this cross space so that he's covered

539
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 2: up after this humiliation and devastating act.

540
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I got to tell you, Dave, I have

541
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: real hope in this case that they're going to find

542
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: out who did this. I know that they have taken

543
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: somebody into custody, they had to release them, but they

544
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: have taken one person into custody and questioned them and

545
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: subsequently released them. What's this area like, Well, we've determined

546
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: that doctor Hoover's home is quite fine. It's quite palatial.

547
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: As we said when we started this conversation, I would

548
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: think that there would be security cameras around this area,

549
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: and I would think that if the police went around

550
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: and they were to collect footage. Now a lot of

551
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: this is going to be depended upon the time of

552
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: day when it happened, they might be able to collect

553
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: an image. And of course, as we know in all

554
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 1: cases like this, that as you begin to work the case,

555
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 1: you extend outward. Who are the intimates in his life,

556
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: Who has he had recent contact with, who has he

557
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: had a beef with, who has he maybe been in

558
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 1: a relationship with, who would want to absolutely destroy this

559
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 1: fine man. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags

560
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: h