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Speaker 1: Evan Dralik from The Athletic joining us right now to

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Speaker 1: talk about some pretty interesting topics that were released last

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Speaker 1: week via articles from Evan. You can check those out

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Speaker 1: in The Athletic right now. Evan, great to see you again.

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Speaker 1: Let us start with the two stories you released on

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Speaker 1: Jim Murray, who is a longtime player agent who is

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Speaker 1: also i'll say it a mole, a rat, whatever you

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Speaker 1: want to call it, and that has been exposed. What

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Speaker 1: else can you tell us?

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Speaker 2: This was a year's long investigation that the MLBPA started

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Speaker 2: really in September twenty twenty three. There was a previous

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Speaker 2: case where Jim Murray's former firm, which is Excel Sports

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Speaker 2: Management's run by Casey Close, who's the agent to Derek Jeter,

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Speaker 2: basically sued but you have to do that in arbitration

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Speaker 2: according to the agent guidelines, sued this other agency that

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Speaker 2: Jim Murray left for WE Sports, which has now gotten

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Speaker 2: out of baseball, and they won big in that case,

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Speaker 2: Excel Sports Management did and of that Jim Murray and

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Speaker 2: another agent there had broken their contract when they left

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Speaker 2: for Excel for WM. One of the things that came

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Speaker 2: up in that case was an email between Excel Sports

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Speaker 2: Management agents right after Jim left, where they're saying what

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Speaker 2: side is Jim on the owners or the players? And

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Speaker 2: someone an agent at Excel accuses him of being a

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Speaker 2: mole and in the following two years here starting September

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, the MLBPA gathers all this evidence text, exchanges, emails,

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Speaker 2: conversations that Jim Murray was having with Commissioner Rob Manford,

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Speaker 2: Deputy Commissioner Dan Halem, a bunch of other lieutenants at

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Speaker 2: MLB no a guard in morgan Swort, Pat Courtney, who's

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Speaker 2: the head of pr and Communications, where Jim is essentially

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Speaker 2: funneling information and trying to bargain on behalf of players.

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Speaker 2: This is the way the PA portrayed it, when that

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Speaker 2: is supposed to be the job of the union agents

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Speaker 2: in general. I think if you step back, people think, well,

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Speaker 2: they are on the player's side of the fence. And

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Speaker 2: what the PA found here is that they had an

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Speaker 2: agent who was basically acting as a double agent, who

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Speaker 2: was giving during very sensitive bargaining times and negotiations in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty when the sport was trying to come back

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Speaker 2: from the pandemic and there was a whole fight over

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Speaker 2: how much players should be paid. There's one text message

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Speaker 2: that stands out where Jim Murray texts Rob Manford and says,

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Speaker 2: don't give in to what the PA is trying to do.

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Speaker 2: And the PA in general is trying to maximize what

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Speaker 2: players are paid. And so it's really this microcosm and

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Speaker 2: an extreme example of the infighting and politics that can

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Speaker 2: exist amongst player agents, the dislike that they can have

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Speaker 2: for the union, and it is He's not the first

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Speaker 2: agent who's ever dealt with the league. And that was

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Speaker 2: the league's statement on this was this is somewhat routine.

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Speaker 2: I think the nature of what Jim Murray was saying,

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Speaker 2: certainly compared to anything I've ever seen covering the sport,

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Speaker 2: really stands out as extreme as an example of going

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Speaker 2: behind the players associations back.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I know he got banned, didn't He got

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Speaker 3: banned from being an agent, but he can still work

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Speaker 3: as an agent. Is this the worst? I know you

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Speaker 3: just said it's the most extreme, but maybe I should

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Speaker 3: phrase this differently. He got banned, but he didn't really

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Speaker 3: get banned. He can do marketing, but he can't do

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Speaker 3: the whole thing. Is kind of can you explain that

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Speaker 3: a little bit more, and then is this the first

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Speaker 3: time that this has ever happened, because I find it

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Speaker 3: hard to believe that this is the first time that

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Speaker 3: somebody's tried to go behind someone's back in a union

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Speaker 3: like such as the MLBPA to try to get basically

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Speaker 3: money from the commissioner. Down the road.

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Speaker 2: Well, there was another agent who was recently decertified. That

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Speaker 2: was the Remus Sports case. And he's not the first

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Speaker 2: agent to have his right and ability to be an

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Speaker 2: agent taken away. And there is some nuance here as

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Speaker 2: you're asking agent, let me explain it. The MLBPA, the

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Speaker 2: Players Union certifies players. If you are going to negotiate

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Speaker 2: a playing contract on behalf of players, you have to

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Speaker 2: be certified with the union and there's a whole set

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Speaker 2: of guidelines that you have to follow, and if you

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Speaker 2: don't follow them, the PA can essentially bring charges, and

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Speaker 2: that doesn't go into a court of law, that goes

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Speaker 2: in front of an arbitrator. The PA reached a settlement

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Speaker 2: with Murray in this case where he is decertified for

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Speaker 2: four years, he cannot negotiate a playing contract, he cannot

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Speaker 2: make money from a playing contract, so this is the

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Speaker 2: very core function of an agent. He is not totally

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Speaker 2: barred from engaging with players. There are four players who

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Speaker 2: he can give advice to, four guys that he had

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Speaker 2: previously that he's still able to talk to that way.

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Speaker 2: And he can also still do marketing, and there is

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Speaker 2: some money that comes in through marketing. So it is

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Speaker 2: not a total and complete break between Murray and the

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Speaker 2: agenting business. But the settlement agreement, so the agreement that

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Speaker 2: the union and Murray signed several pages long. There's all

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Speaker 2: sorts of other conditions that have to be met and

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Speaker 2: restrictions that are on him. He can't again own an agency.

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Speaker 2: If he gets back involved, he's got to pay an

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Speaker 2: additional one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. He's already find

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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars. Any agent who is working with him,

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Speaker 2: any player's working with him in the future, has to

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Speaker 2: sign off that they've read this agreement. They put shackles

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Speaker 2: around him without totally and entirely saying you can't ever

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Speaker 2: do anything in this sport again. But for four years

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Speaker 2: he can't do the main function of an agent. So

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Speaker 2: it is quite extreme. It is not the most extreme

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Speaker 2: outcome you could have imagined, but I think after two years,

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Speaker 2: the union and probably Murray's camp as well, felt it

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Speaker 2: was time to move on.

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Speaker 1: Also seems kind of crazy that a player would read

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Speaker 1: this and then be like, oh, yeah, I want to

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Speaker 1: represent me. You like me, because there is some explosive

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Speaker 1: back and forth here that people can read in your

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Speaker 1: article to spring up a couple of notable parts. And

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Speaker 1: I think this is important, Evan, that we're going over

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Speaker 1: this because there's already distrust, severe distrust between both sides.

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Speaker 2: This does not help the cause.

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Speaker 1: And for fans listening, they want to know, a are we

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Speaker 1: just going to keep playing ball? We don't want all

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Speaker 1: this lockout crap. This doesn't help. So one part I

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Speaker 1: want to bring up first is why would Jim Murray

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Speaker 1: do this? And I'll pick out a part from your

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Speaker 1: article about him lobbying to sell advertisements via uniform patches.

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Speaker 1: This is a direct text quote Noah Garden, who handles

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Speaker 1: a lot of the business for MLB, quote Rob Manfred

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Speaker 1: is going to talk with you about the patch thing

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Speaker 1: and me slash us helping parentheses. Therefore I can maybe

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Speaker 1: get a paycheck. So I think that's one explanation as

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Speaker 1: to why someone like this would do that. One other

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Speaker 1: that I'll bring up that stood out to me is

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Speaker 1: how he was, what'd say, pretty vocal about his hate

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Speaker 1: of the side that he's supposed to represent. In June

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, Rob Manfred's right hand PR guy Pat Corney,

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Speaker 1: asked Murray, how are players, and Murray's response was, f

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Speaker 1: the players, I'm still so pissed off. I can't see straight.

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Speaker 1: We need them to be pissed at their leadership was

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Speaker 1: with a reply from Courtney, so what are your thoughts

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Speaker 1: on some of the reasons why someone.

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Speaker 2: Like this would go rogue? Yeah. Reading this letter of

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Speaker 2: discipline notice of discipline that the PA sent out to

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Speaker 2: its executive board, so that's the thirty eight players who

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Speaker 2: get to vote on major union affairs, it's pretty jarring.

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Speaker 2: You don't see this level of detail in terms of

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Speaker 2: internal communications, the way agents or league officials would talk

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Speaker 2: to each other. It's very wild stuff to see. And

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Speaker 2: what's in the story is really only a small slice.

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Speaker 2: As I understand, what's even in that seventy one page

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Speaker 2: letter of discipline is only a small slice of what

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Speaker 2: the union came cross. Why someone would do this, I

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Speaker 2: think currying favor with the league can do a few

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Speaker 2: things for an agent. Right If you're able to tell

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Speaker 2: a player that you're recruiting, that you have that you

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Speaker 2: are in the middle of these decisions, that all roads

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Speaker 2: are some really important roads run through you, that's a

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Speaker 2: pretty powerful recruiting tool. And I think some agents say it,

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Speaker 2: whether it's true or not. But if you can kind

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Speaker 2: of position yourself as above the fray, as exceptional in

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Speaker 2: the eyes of the league, that helps you potentially in

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Speaker 2: your business. And obviously your players presumably wouldn't see these

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Speaker 2: types of communications. And the reality of agenting is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, agents have different types of clients. You know,

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Speaker 2: when the union is fighting for what it perceives to

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Speaker 2: be the greater good overall, Jim Murray has clients who

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Speaker 2: might believe because he encouraged them or otherwise that it

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Speaker 2: is not for the greater good you asked about the

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Speaker 2: patch question. These larger agencies, Excel being one of them,

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Speaker 2: have different divisions of business that do sponsorship marketing deals

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Speaker 2: with the league, and the lines there get very blurry.

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Speaker 2: And this is something that the Union has tried to

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Speaker 2: enforce in other areas to some success. But you know,

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Speaker 2: you can have an agency that is representing players in

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Speaker 2: one way and then in another lane is doing sponsorship, marketing,

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Speaker 2: patch deals, what have you with the league. And I

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Speaker 2: think it's not a leap to say that there can

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Speaker 2: be some perverse incentives here where the marketing side is

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Speaker 2: going to want potentially different things and what the player

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Speaker 2: side is going to want. And in this case, you

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Speaker 2: had a player agent crossing that line himself directly. So

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Speaker 2: it's this window into the complexity and truly inside ball

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Speaker 2: of union politics, of the agent in union politics. It's

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Speaker 2: a very complicated and layered situation, and it's ugly.

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Speaker 4: Some of this. We're talking about opinions. You bring up

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Speaker 4: a lot of facts. Is there a legal because we

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Speaker 4: have strict labor laws when it regards to unions, is

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Speaker 4: there a legal ramifications that will come out of this,

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Speaker 4: not just for Jim Murray, but also for you know,

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Speaker 4: fair contract negotiations that are supposed to be brought to

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Speaker 4: the table. And we have people going behind the back

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Speaker 4: from one side to the other. So is there anything

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Speaker 4: legal from either side, from Jim murray side, or even

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Speaker 4: from Commissioner Manfred and you know Major League Baseball.

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Speaker 2: I think the only answer I give there is to

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Speaker 2: be seen. Certainly, I wouldn't expect if the union believes

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Speaker 2: that there was some sort of greater violation committed here

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Speaker 2: on behalf of the league for them to disclose it

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Speaker 2: to me before they've brought a case. They kept this

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Speaker 2: thing relatively quiet. I caught some wind of it previously,

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Speaker 2: but didn't have enough to report it until they were done, basically,

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Speaker 2: and there was a hard document that went out and

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Speaker 2: I was able to obtain it. But I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if the commissioner and his lieutenants engaging

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Speaker 2: with a player representative that way is in any way impermissible. Certainly,

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Speaker 2: the league's position spokesperson Glnton Kappen went on the record

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Speaker 2: for this story and described this as routine and also

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Speaker 2: felt like this was kind of settled business. Right There

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Speaker 2: were grievances that the league and the union both filed

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Speaker 2: against each other regarding these twenty twenty negotiations. What was

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Speaker 2: in question here with Jim Murray got narrowed down to

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Speaker 2: what did he do during the pandemic time, and at

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Speaker 2: the league's position is that that's all settled business. We

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Speaker 2: had grievances, we agreed to resolve them, and I assume

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Speaker 2: their argument would be that you can't then bring further

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Speaker 2: litigation regarding it, and the way that would work in

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Speaker 2: the same way that if there's an agent issue, it

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Speaker 2: goes to arbitration. That's what would happen with the league

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Speaker 2: and the union as well. They have their own arbitration process.

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Speaker 2: It would be a grievance, right, We've heard that term before.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know if there'll be further action off

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Speaker 2: of this, but I suspect the union is considering all

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 1: Evan one more on this, and just also I spoke

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Speaker 1: to some agents anonymously been around for a while and

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Speaker 1: asked them if they felt like that statement was accurate,

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Speaker 1: if this was normal, and they obviously laughed hysterically like

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Speaker 1: I would never ever go to those lengths. Of course,

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Speaker 1: they are a communication going on. You know, an agency

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Speaker 1: is a commissioner at the ballpark whatever, That's all cool.

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Speaker 1: This is crazy. So to give one more example here

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Speaker 1: and again I'm just trying to represent fans and say, hey,

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Speaker 1: how does this affect us? Well, here we go back

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty. This is in there from your article

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Speaker 1: Jim Murray, who we're talking about here. The rogue agent

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Speaker 1: who turned into a mole wrote to Rob Manford directly, quote,

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Speaker 1: please do not give in regarding the MLBPA proposed October language.

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Speaker 1: You will get the deal done without it. And in

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Speaker 1: your article you wrote the union was trying to put

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Speaker 1: flexibility in the schedule for additional games, thereby increasing potential

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Speaker 1: player earnings. The union wrote in the documents which were

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Speaker 1: obtained by the athletic in your report. So how do

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Speaker 1: you think that affects fans? I mean, that's the part

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to get to, is we go back to

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty. I remember being pissed, like can we just

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Speaker 1: play ball? There's so much fighting going on. You've got

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Speaker 1: a guy on supposedly on one side of the spectrum

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Speaker 1: telling the other side, like, don't give in on this one.

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Speaker 2: Hold out.

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: You know, I did six years ago already an oral

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Speaker 2: history of the nineteen ninety four ninety five strike. And

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Speaker 2: there is an agent, if he's run, Shapiro Unchapira, one

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Speaker 2: of the pronunciations there who described the role that agents

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Speaker 2: had during that nineteen ninety four ninety five strike of

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Speaker 2: shuttling information, and he acknowledged that the player association at

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Speaker 2: the time didn't like it, And so I think there's

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Speaker 2: a nuance here of agents are always back channeling to

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Speaker 2: some degree. It is hard to imagine that many agents

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Speaker 2: would be so clearly in the bag for management, for

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Speaker 2: the owners and not for the cause of the union,

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Speaker 2: you know, and unions and agents do play different roles,

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Speaker 2: and they have a symbiotic relationship, and it's complex where

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Speaker 2: the agents are concerned about their guys and their own interests,

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Speaker 2: and the union is supposed to be supposed to be

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Speaker 2: something a little bit more pure, where you're supposed to

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Speaker 2: be advocating on behalf of the entire membership and making

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Speaker 2: decisions at the guidance of your thirty eight player executive

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Speaker 2: board that are that are good for all players. And so,

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Speaker 2: you know, an agent trying to essentially play a negotiator.

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Speaker 2: There is a federal labor law element here that is

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Speaker 2: pretty straightforward. Of the union is designated, the executive board

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Speaker 2: is designated negotiator for the players, right, it is not.

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Speaker 2: I don't think anybody would argue the job of a

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Speaker 2: player agent to negotiate a labor deal for players. They

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Speaker 2: negotiate playing contracts. They don't negotiate labor deals, but they

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Speaker 2: have great influence over the players that they represent. And

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Speaker 2: so I think to your question, how does this impact fans?

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Speaker 2: It adds a whole other layer of complication to negotiations

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Speaker 2: that are already complicated. It's not just owners versus owners

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Speaker 2: on management side, and then owners versus players. It's agents

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Speaker 2: at times versus players versus union. It's you know, sometimes

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Speaker 2: people ask me, what's my job? It's really baseball politics.

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Speaker 2: This this is as kind of extreme an example of

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Speaker 2: politics gone awry, certainly from the perspective of the union

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Speaker 2: as I've seen.

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Speaker 4: Ivan.

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Speaker 3: You also read another story about the player's way. Can

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Speaker 3: you can you talk a little bit about the player's

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Speaker 3: way and in how this became a story also because this,

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Speaker 3: I mean, is it under it under investigation now by

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Speaker 3: the because of the way it was handled. What's the

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Speaker 3: deal with the players away?

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Speaker 2: So the story, Yes, I basically wrote a summary of

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Speaker 2: ESPN story. They did a good job, Jeff Pass and

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Speaker 2: Don Bennetta Junior of reporting this. I did not have

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Speaker 2: this story. There has been, as has been previously reported,

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Speaker 2: an ongoing federal investigation into officials at the mlbp A

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Speaker 2: and also at at least one other sports union, the NFLPA,

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Speaker 2: where we've already seen the head of the NFLPA, Lloyd

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Speaker 2: how Junior, has resigned. When the first came out, there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of focus on this licensing company that the

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Speaker 2: MLBPA and the NFLPA together own a combined two thirds

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Speaker 2: of called one Team Partners, and they do deals with fanatics.

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Speaker 2: And there was a long story I did about their

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Speaker 2: board and how they at one point moved to try

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Speaker 2: to grant themselves basically equity. The complication here when you

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Speaker 2: have these companies that are owned by sports unions is

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Speaker 2: that to what degree should labor law apply. It is

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Speaker 2: a question that lawyers and federal government have to sort through.

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Speaker 2: But there are all sorts of requirements that labor unions

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Speaker 2: have that outside businesses don't. You know, who makes decisions, transparency,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. And so basically you are held to a

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Speaker 2: different and understandably higher standard in many cases than an

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Speaker 2: outside business would be. And the union has this arm

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Speaker 2: that's dedicated to youth sports called Player's Way, and this

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Speaker 2: is a pet project of Tony Clarks and the ESPN

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Speaker 2: report in summary is there's been a bunch of money

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Speaker 2: that's gone in there, and they had two anonymous sources

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Speaker 2: questioning where is this money gone, where is it how

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Speaker 2: is it being used? And it all to some degree

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Speaker 2: stems back or ties back to this anonymous complaint that

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Speaker 2: was submitted to the National Labor Relations Department last year,

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Speaker 2: and this complaint was then sent anonymously to reporters the

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Speaker 2: federal government. Now, the Department of Justice seems to be

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Speaker 2: going through some or at least at least some, if

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Speaker 2: not all, of the different things that were listened to

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Speaker 2: this complaint about Tony Clark and the operation of the MLBPA,

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Speaker 2: and this is it's a very difficult thing for the

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Speaker 2: MLBPA to have to deal with when you're now probably

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Speaker 2: just months away from collective bargaining. You have the possibility

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Speaker 2: anytime you have the DOJ involved, there's at least the

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Speaker 2: possibility of a federal indictment, you know, that could be

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Speaker 2: brought forth against Tony or any of the other officials there.

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Speaker 2: And it hangs a cloud over everything. And we'll see

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Speaker 2: if indeed the federal government finds that there's reason to

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Speaker 2: move the case forward, but it is it is a serious,

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Speaker 2: serious development and something that ultimately, if it does lead

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Speaker 2: to an indictment if it does lead to some sort

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Speaker 2: of change in leadership of the union, could have great

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Speaker 2: impact on collective bargaining. And it's no small matter.

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Speaker 4: Is it deeper than just you know, a tony thing?

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Speaker 4: Is it a brute?

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Speaker 3: You know?

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Speaker 4: Are there the people that are under investigation? Is it

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Speaker 4: always in this case leadership because to me, there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of pieces that there's a lot of player or

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Speaker 4: ex players that get involved with the player's way or

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Speaker 4: different arms of different things. So is it just a

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Speaker 4: leadership that the FBI, I mean, the federal investigation would

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Speaker 4: be would be focusing.

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Speaker 2: On You're right, FBI is the right term here. The

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Speaker 2: FBI does is the one looking into this, and the

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Speaker 2: prosecutors are the US Attorney's Office, and it's out of

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Speaker 2: the Eastern District of New York. I think the intuitive

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Speaker 2: answer here is, uh, they're going to look at everything.

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Speaker 2: If you're in the federal government, you're this is a

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Speaker 2: relatively high profile case, right, and the job is to

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Speaker 2: vet anyone and everything with this and see if it

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Speaker 2: lines up with applicable law. And that can take a

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Speaker 2: very long time. There's no real expiration on on this

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Speaker 2: as as far as I know. And the Eastern District

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Speaker 2: of New York has not commented at any point. But

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Speaker 2: you know, if if money is being wrongly used or

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Speaker 2: wrongly allocated, or if it's being done in a way,

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Speaker 2: if it's being allocated in a way that's not really

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Speaker 2: in line with labor law. Uh, you know, any any

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Speaker 2: number of charges could be broad. But this is this

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Speaker 2: is a one thing to explain here. This is a

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Speaker 2: very unique situation where you have labor union, a labor

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Speaker 2: union operating other for profit business arms. Typically labor unions

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Speaker 2: don't do that, right. This is relatively unique to sports

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Speaker 2: and it's something of kind of new ground where the

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Speaker 2: MLBPA and NFLPA they all had outside council advising them

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Speaker 2: this would be within labor law. This wouldn't be within

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Speaker 2: the labor law. Even if you make those efforts, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean you're necessarily always going.

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Speaker 3: To step perfectly.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, we'll see is there an indictment.

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Speaker 2: Is the indictment if there is one something very serious

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Speaker 2: or is it something that players would overlook and say,

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Speaker 2: you know, we can live with this, but the requirements

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Speaker 2: around spending money transparent yet a labor union, you know,

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Speaker 2: there is an annual financial disclosure form that the union

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Speaker 2: has to file every year. Major LEA Baseball doesn't have

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Speaker 2: to do that, right, There is a higher requirement in

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Speaker 2: place for labor unions, and it's we'll see if they

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Speaker 2: followed the letter of the law.

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Speaker 1: Having great intel, good stuff on this on both stories.

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Speaker 1: Really appreciate you hopping on. We're here for it, so

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Speaker 1: as more of them coming out, you'll be back.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk soon. Okay, thanks guys,