1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,239 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: And this is going to be part two of our 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 1: two part discussion about Leonard slain book The Alphabet Versus 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: the Goddess, which argues that literacy and writing, especially alphabetic writing, 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: led to a demotion of the status of women and 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: goddesses and a promotion or arise in patriarchal religions and cultures. 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: So if you haven't listened to that first episode, you 10 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: go back check that one out, so this one makes sense. 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: But for a basic refresher, last time we discussed goddesses, 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: we talked about Anano, we talked about Thetis, and we 13 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: outlined the basics of Leonard Slain's hypothesis. His main claim 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: is that human evolution led to a gender division and 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: brain hemisphere. Favorite is um that men and women biologically 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: with their brains, can do pretty much the same things 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 1: if they want to, but that the division of labor 18 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: and hunter gatherer culture tended to favor a brain lateralized 19 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: division of labor, where men were usually more left brain 20 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: oriented because men had to be the hunters, and that 21 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: that hunting required left brain emphasies on things like sequential 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: detail based thinking, uh, and emotional coldness and cruelty. And 23 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,119 Speaker 1: then on the other hand, you had women more often 24 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: being selected for labor that favor favored right brain type 25 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: stuff like emotional intuitions, empathy, nurturing, education, speech as opposed 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: to written language and images. And so Schlain thinks, what 27 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: that the introduction of writing kind of messed things up. 28 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: It shifted human culture to favor the left brain perceptual 29 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: modes which traditionally had been associated with men males of 30 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: the species, and that that gave rise to patriarchy and 31 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: patriarchal culture. Yeah, it's such a puloss hypothesis. I'd really 32 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: I haven't been able to get it out of my 33 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: mind since we first started researching it. Yeah, it's one 34 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: of those that, as we said last time, even if 35 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: we don't necessarily think his argument is convincing, or if 36 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: you know, he hasn't necessarily made his case that this 37 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: is really how it happened, it certainly brings up a 38 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: lot of interesting subjects along the way, and so he 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: raises interesting questions. Even if he's not ultimately right, and 40 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: I'm I'm pretty sure I'm not convinced by his argument 41 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: in the end, But it's a fascinating book. Nonetheless. Yeah, 42 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: like I said, it forces you to to rethink what language, 43 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: what written language, does to us, and and why the 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: status of the goddess is so diminished in our world, 45 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: to the point where I was telling my son, who's 46 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 1: only he's only six, just barely six, I was telling 47 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: him about goddesses, and then later that day we see 48 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: a representation of a goddess and he refers to it 49 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: as a lady god. I'm like, no, actually, it's it's 50 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: a goddess. It is. Uh, it's not just a lady 51 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: version of this other thing it is. It's really kind 52 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 1: of the primordial thing you should be swing it a 53 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: man goddess. Yeah, exactly. That That makes me think, like 54 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: it's so deeply embedded. Now, I'm not calling your son 55 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: a sexist, but I'm saying, like, you know, how what 56 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: how come we see a goddess and we think that's 57 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: a lady god instead of seeing a male god and 58 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: think that's a male goddess. Yeah, I mean, it's he's 59 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: not sexist, but he he is growing up in a 60 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: world that is that is ruled by by by patriarchy, 61 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: and you can, you can try and balance out of 62 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: child's upbringing as much as possible, but they're still growing 63 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: up exposed to that larger world. Yeah, and growing up 64 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: with the legacy of you know, hundreds or thousands of 65 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: years of literature and archetypes, and you know, it's it's 66 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 1: they're not just in the full works of literature, but 67 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: it's there in the metaphors we use in everyday speech. 68 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: They tend to have a kind of patriarchal slant to them, 69 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: or at least one that associates valued cultural traits or 70 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: valued activities with men and men's behavior, and that goes 71 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: back through history. Uh, maybe only the fifty pages or 72 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: so of Schlane's book are actually the part where he's 73 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: outlining his hypothesis about evolution and brain lateralization um and 74 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: and how writing affects that, And then most of the 75 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: rest of the book is just him exploring cultures and 76 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: time periods throughout history when the status of writing changed 77 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: or when writing was introduced, and what happens to the 78 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: cultures there. Like one of the examples he talks about 79 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: is in ancient Mesopotamia, with the introduction of cune of 80 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,799 Speaker 1: form and professionalized scribes and things like that, when writing 81 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: was professionalized, you know. He thinks that this leads to 82 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: the introduction of the idea of written law codes instead 83 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: of unwritten norms of behavior, govering what's acceptable and what's 84 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: not acceptable to do in society. And so Slaine looks 85 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,239 Speaker 1: at some of the misogynistic qualities of the earliest written 86 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: law codes and says, hmmm, it looks it looks to 87 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: him like maybe the introduction of writing itself somehow coincided 88 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: with a sharp turn towards misogynistic standards of conduct in society. Now. 89 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: Of course, sh Lane spends a lot of time with 90 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: the Greeks because there's a lot of mythological and historical 91 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: content to discuss there. And he points to the comparison 92 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: to be made between Athens and Sparta as an example 93 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: of how the spread of the written word pushed uh 94 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: the goddess and just female power to the periphery of 95 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,240 Speaker 1: Greek culture, and he says that they're it's they're perfect 96 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: examples to compare because they both spoke the same language, 97 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: they worship the same gods, they spoken and wrote the 98 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: same language, but the two big differences, he says, emerge 99 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: in their treatment of women and their attitudes towards the alphabet. 100 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: That's interesting. Yeah, so let's talk about Sparta. I will 101 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: I will present to you that this is Sparta. Uh yeah, 102 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,840 Speaker 1: I mean you bring up the example by illusion. If 103 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: you were only to be trained on modern pop culture, 104 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: you would tend to think of Sparta as very macho. 105 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: So so you might be curious, how could how could 106 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: Sparta be more more pro woman than Athens? Yeah? How 107 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,599 Speaker 1: could a place that is we we've we've come to 108 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: define it by beards and six packs, like what what? 109 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: What in there is empowering to women? Well? Certainly they 110 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: were a militaristic society with little use for literacy. They 111 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: produced no playwrights, philosophers, or historians that that really resonated 112 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: beyond their own age. Their law, which was formulated by Lesurgis, 113 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: was not written down. Everyone had to memorize it instead, 114 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: and Plutarch even reported that there was a Spartan law 115 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: against committing any law to writing. What Yeah crazy? Uh So. 116 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: On the other hand, they of course glorified deprecation and cruelty. Uh. 117 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: Their government was an oligarchy with with definite fascist leanings. 118 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 1: But then compare this this place to Athens, Okay. Athens 119 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 1: certainly is a fountain of culture, democracy, law, but it's 120 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: also a place where women were excluded from education, government 121 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: and public affairs. The the Athenian law of her Solon 122 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,159 Speaker 1: denied women the right to buy or sell land, and 123 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: women were just considered property. A father could dissolve his 124 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: daughter's marriage. Uh. And even though the muses were considered 125 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: feminine deities, uh, the artists were not. The artists were male. 126 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: So Sparta, on the other hand, quote educated girls in 127 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: nearly the same manner as boys. Women wore less restrictive clothing, 128 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: and they also competed in athletic games. They ruled the 129 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: household while the men were away at war, and they 130 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: owned and sold property. In fact, by the fourth century 131 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: b C. Women owned two fifths of all Spartan land 132 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: Fritish land. Here's a quote from Slane's book. Spartan's honored 133 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: women's life giving role and considered it equal to that 134 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: of their warriors. To immortalize his name by having it 135 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: inscribed on his tombstone, a Spartan man had to die 136 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: in combat to win the same honor a Spartan woman 137 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 1: had to perish in childbirth. And another effect that he 138 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: points out is that ATHENI demanded fidelity, virginity, and chastity 139 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: among the women, but Spartan women were not so restrained. 140 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: So again he argues that this, this is a great 141 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: bit of evidence to support his hypothesis, because you have 142 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: you have kind of a wonderful uh uh, you know, 143 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: a versus b testing situation here with with Athens on 144 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: one hand and Sparta on the other. Yeah, these two 145 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 1: civic societies that, at least if he's correct, he's claiming 146 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: are are very similar, except by the cultural differences that 147 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: are derived from one being highly literate in the elites 148 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: and the other not being so fond of of written 149 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 1: down words. Yeah, it's a really interesting idea to compare 150 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: the two like that. And I wonder what a scholar 151 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,079 Speaker 1: of ancient Greece would think looking at that. I mean, 152 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: would a scholar of ancient Greece say, yes, those those 153 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: comparisons are valid or or is picking? Yeah, Shlane cherry picking. 154 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: You always gotta wonder if Slane's cherry picking, because I 155 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: get the sense sometimes he may be doing that in 156 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: support of his argument, But at least in the moment 157 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: while you're reading it, it seems very persuasive. Yeah, I 158 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,280 Speaker 1: can't help. But wonder if if one were to really 159 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: get into some of the details of Sparta's brutality, if 160 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: that would um, even that would go against Stoyan's argument here. 161 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: But but but I have not looked at that data yet. Yeah. Hey, 162 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: if you're a listener out there and you are an 163 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: ancient Greek historian or a historian of ancient Greece, especially 164 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: if you're an ancient Greek, if you travel through time, 165 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: do do rings up. We'll get somebody to translate. Yeah, 166 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 1: but either way, please get in touch with us. Let 167 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: us know what you think about that is. Is that 168 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: on target? Is it bunk? We'd be interested to hear 169 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 1: your thoughts. Um. But yeah, So he talks about many 170 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: ancient cultures. He talks about ancient Egypt, he talks about Mesopotamia, 171 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: giving examples as he goes throughout of where he sees 172 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: the introduction of the written word or parts of the 173 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: society that favored the written word, causing women's position to 174 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: go into a relative decline and even leading in many 175 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: cases to these types of violent misogyny that we see 176 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: in say, the Code of Hammurabi, the you know, the 177 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: written law codes of ancient Mesopotamia. But I think we 178 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: should look at another interesting example that maybe goes a 179 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 1: little bit counter to his theory, or at least see 180 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: how he deals with it. And that example would be China. 181 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: So we'll take a look at sh Lane's thoughts on 182 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 1: ancient China after we come back from this break. Thank you, 183 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: thank you. Alright, we're back, okay. So we were going 184 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: to discuss Leonard Schlane's treatment of ancient China. I was 185 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: curious what he would do with this, because part of 186 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: his idea is that the sequential reading of letters in 187 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:32,560 Speaker 1: alphabetic script is what tends to favor this like this 188 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: male dominant way of thinking in the brain. But of 189 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: course Chinese script doesn't exactly work that way, right, that's right, 190 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: I mean China. The Chinese language does not have an alphabet, 191 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: so it would seem to be a very difficult thing 192 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: to fit into this theory. So I do want to 193 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: discuss some of the key points that he makes in 194 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: discussing Chinese culture Chinese language. So he points to the 195 00:10:55,600 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: evidence of preliterate female centric Chinese culture, and indeed there 196 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: are some very powerful goddesses in Chinese myths, such as 197 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 1: the creatrix goddess uh Nua. But he also makes the 198 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: following points about about Chinese language. He says, there's no 199 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: tensh calligraphy is is visual artistic in ways that Western 200 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: script doesn't have to be. There's more poetry, entity says, 201 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: and and so it would seem to be a right 202 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: hemisphere written language, and there's actually some sided evidence to 203 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: back that up, he says. Quote researchers tested a select 204 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: group of Chinese and English speaking individuals who had learned 205 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: to read and write both languages as small children, and 206 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 1: who later in life had experienced damage to one hemisphere 207 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 1: or the other. Right handed Subjects who had damage to 208 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: their left hemispheres lost the ability to speak either Chinese 209 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: or English, and although they could not write English, they 210 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: retained a limited ability to communicate in written Chinese. Those 211 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: with damage to their right hemispheres could still speak Chinese 212 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,719 Speaker 1: and English, and although they could write English, they had 213 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 1: difficulty writing Chinese. However, Schlein stresses that that all of 214 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: this language, even though it might be tipped a little 215 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: more in the direction of the feminine, it still diminishes 216 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 1: the role of the nonverbal component of speech. Chinese character 217 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: still must be read in sequence. They and they are, 218 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: as we discussed in the Chinese Typewriter episode abstract inform, 219 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: there's a certain reductionism involved in consuming it. And so 220 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,559 Speaker 1: he argues that the Chinese writing is still much closer 221 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 1: to the alphabet than it is to oral communication and uh. 222 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,319 Speaker 1: And it's this proximity that makes it a masculizing influence 223 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: on Chinese culture. And he also points out that the 224 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: following he says that quote the tentacles of literacy began 225 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 1: to wrap around the minds of the Chinese people in 226 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: the sixth century b c. And then this is around 227 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 1: the same time that Taoism and Confucianism emerge, so that 228 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: this is fascinating. He points out that Taoism embodies feminine values, 229 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: no attempt to control others, and promotes mother Nature as 230 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: a guide. And and this is where we get the 231 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: symbol of the yin yang, of the of of of 232 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: the two opposing forces feminine and masculine. Yeah, he portrays 233 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: Daoism is very is very feminine friendly. Yeah. On the 234 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: other hand, he says that Confucism this touts masculine values, 235 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: UH structures, patriarchal society and UH and and a father culture. 236 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: And so these two systems of belief they coexist in 237 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: relative equilibrium until the Chinese invent the printing press in 238 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: around CE. Literacy rates sore, and soon after Daoism declines 239 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: and Confucism becomes China's dominant belief system. Now, Robert, I 240 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,079 Speaker 1: know you're very interested in Chinese history. How how does 241 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: that square with your understanding of the development and culture 242 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: and the role of Daoism versus Confucism. Well, I love 243 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: the way he's looking at this, uh, this sort of 244 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,679 Speaker 1: tug of war between Taoism and Confucism. But but then 245 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: to come back around and and say, but it's the 246 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: it's the written language that is the key, when clearly 247 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: you have these two different worldviews that are having, you know, 248 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: enormous effect on Chinese culture. Um. I think it's an 249 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: interesting read, but it feels like written language is just 250 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: one of several factors at work here, you know, which 251 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: I guess is kind of my my response to the 252 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: whole hypothesis. Well, I would say that throughout many of 253 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: his discussions in in different times in history. I think 254 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: one problem with his hypothesis is that he over generalizes 255 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: the the pro female or anti female characteristics of cultures 256 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: or ways of thinking. You know, he characters tends to 257 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: characterize something as either like, you know, this this way 258 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: of thinking was very anti woman, or this way of 259 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 1: thinking was very pro woman, when I think in both 260 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: cases there's usually a little more nuanced than he's letting on. 261 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: I agree, Like one example from the Western history is 262 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: when he gets into the idea of like medieval medieval 263 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: Catholicism being pro woman, but then the Protestant Reformation and 264 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: the subsequent Catholic reaction to the Protestant Reformation being anti woman. 265 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: I think you're more likely to find strong strains of 266 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: misogyny in both, but examples of women breaking through it 267 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: in both cases, right. And then also, of course we're 268 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: realizing that you have varying levels, varying class levels in 269 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: any given um group. So I mean, for instance, in 270 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: medieval Europe, you're gonna have some women who are who 271 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: are nuns and are a part of the religious hierarchy. Uh, 272 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: and then you're gonna have some that are that are 273 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: simply peasants. You're gonna have some that are royalty. Likewise, 274 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: in Chinese history, when you get into the era of footbinding, 275 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: you're going to have you're gonna have members of the 276 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: upper class who are who are who end up being 277 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: a part of footbinding culture. Then you're gonna have women 278 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: in lower classes who can who are not part of it, 279 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: part in many parts in many instances due the fact 280 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: they do have to work and contribute. Not to get 281 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: too much into foot binding, that it's another fascinating and 282 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 1: disturbing topic all on its own. So in Schlane's book, 283 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: we come back time and time again to the notion 284 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: that the medium is the message. We go from oral 285 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 1: tradition to written records, eventually compounded by the advent of 286 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: printing press technology. With any key upheavals in society aligned 287 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: and his hypothesis with the with the technology and the 288 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: literacy of its people, masculine powers entrenched themselves. The trend 289 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: continues unabated through the world wars of the twentieth century, 290 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: with some impact from the advent of photography. That's an 291 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: interesting thing. He essentially says that we're retreating back away 292 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 1: from some of the patriarchy and that women are gaining 293 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: more rights to some degree because of photography and the 294 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: introduction of the importance of the image back into society. 295 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: He even at one point talks about how it used 296 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: to be that a family was fleeing a burning home, 297 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: what would they grab. It would be the family bible. 298 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: That'd be the thing around which all of their family 299 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: memories were centered. It was a word, yeah, the printed text. 300 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: And then after the introduction of photography, it would be 301 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: the family photo album. Yeah. And then then he argues 302 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: that post World War Two, you see this television boom, 303 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: which which he says, really brings the feminine medium to prominence, 304 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: because this again is the triumph of the visual over 305 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: the text. Right. But one thing that's interesting is that 306 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: Schlane isn't always saying that, say, the left brain is 307 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 1: bad and the right brain is good. Right, that's right. 308 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 1: He brings up the example of Adolf Hitler's rise to 309 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: power in Germany, which he points out was a highly 310 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,880 Speaker 1: literate nation at the time. And uh, and how did 311 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: Hitler rise to power will through the use of of 312 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: the of radio And he characterizes this is the dark 313 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: side of a sudden shift to right brain culture. Yeah, 314 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,160 Speaker 1: So he says the ideas that Hitler used radio too 315 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: circumvent this sort of organized, sequential left brain thinking of 316 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: the printed word, and goes straight into people's brains by 317 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: talking to them in their ears. Is his quote, Hitler's 318 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 1: voice buried deep into the depths of the right hemisphere, 319 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: resurrecting tribal myths and rituals. Now, I wonder what he's 320 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: gonna make a twitter. Well, he does touch on the 321 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: Internet age a bit here. He points out that you 322 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: have the the invention of personal computer technology who would great, 323 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: which greatly changes the way people interact. You have graphic 324 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: icons increasingly replacing text commands, and he says that the 325 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: Internet and Worldwide Web are based on feminine images of 326 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 1: nets and webs. I don't know. That feels like kind 327 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: of a stretch, but but still, well, a lot of 328 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: his associations in the book are kind of stretching, like, 329 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: but then again, we're talking about the realm of symbols 330 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: and the power of symbols, and certainly symbols are powerful. 331 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: Now beyond that, he doesn't get really get much into 332 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: the contemporary world. He died in in two thousand nine 333 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: and this book was published in Uh, there's much I 334 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 1: think that one might say about the role of say, 335 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: hate speech in the primarily written world of Twitter and Reddit. 336 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: Um And yet at the same time, meme culture makes 337 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 1: use of images as well, often to drive home some 338 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: rather problematic ideas. Yeah, what about how about podcasts? Right? Well, 339 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: that's true right now, everybody that's listening, that's that's taking 340 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,479 Speaker 1: in this podcast. You were listening to our voices. You're 341 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: not reading it. Um So Yeah, I feel like that 342 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: the world of podcast represents more of the the the 343 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 1: feminine energy that he's he describes in his book. There 344 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: are quite a few reasons that he seems to think 345 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: that the modern technological situation is going to be a 346 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: positive thing for the elimination of the influence of patriarchy. 347 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,880 Speaker 1: One of which is that you've got photography and imagery everywhere. 348 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 1: Another one of which is that we depend now so 349 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: much on electricity, which he characterizes is as always being 350 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: described in terms of feminine power or him and in 351 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: type words. Another thing is that the keyboard has very 352 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: much changed the way we compose even written texts. Now, 353 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: the previous idea of how you'd compose a written text 354 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: would be that you'd write it out by hand with 355 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 1: your dominant hand, which is controlled by the dominant hemisphere 356 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: of the brain. So if you're a right handed person, 357 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 1: left hemisphere dominant brain, you'd be writing with that hemisphere. 358 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: But now we type with both hands, and so if 359 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: you're composing things on a keyboard or on a typewriter, 360 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: maybe that would somehow circumvent part of the way that 361 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: he believes that the left brain has been dominant in 362 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: alphabetic cultures. He even points to the fact that when 363 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 1: typewriters first came into prominence, the people who mainly focused 364 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: on typing for a living were women, and that typing 365 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,680 Speaker 1: was seen as like it was kind of men who 366 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: were trying to get into typing were tweeted dismissively. Is like, oh, 367 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: that's the thing for women to do. That's a great point, yeah, 368 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: and not something I would have necessarily thought about going 369 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: into this spite. I mean, we had the fact that 370 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: we had a whole episode that that discussed the the 371 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: technology of typewriters and its effect on culture. Now, I 372 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: will say Slane was optimistic about where we were headed 373 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: and what our trajectory was. Slash is as a as 374 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: a people should be consider this a disproof of his hypothesis. 375 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: It depends how you look at it. Again, you have 376 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: to you have to think about the various uh um 377 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: um you know, peaks and valleys in this various timeline 378 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: of feminine versus masculine. Yeah, it's true, we shouldn't. You know. 379 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: It's easy to be negative about how things are in 380 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: the present. You know, you have that bias, nativity bias, 381 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: and it's like, you know, you'll give it some time. 382 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: You had a few decades and then you can see 383 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: how things were. But this is this is what he 384 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: said in his epilogue. He said, quote, I am convinced 385 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: we are entering a new golden age, one in which 386 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: the right hemispheric values of tolerance, caring, and respect for 387 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 1: nature will we begin to ameliorate the conditions that have 388 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: prevailed for the too long period during which the left 389 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: him spheric values were dominant. Images of any kind are 390 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: the bomb bringing about this worldwide healing. I will take 391 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: more time for change to permeate and alterate world cultures, 392 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: but there can be no doubt that the wondrous um 393 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: permutations of photography and electromagnetism are transforming the world, both 394 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: physically and psychically. The shift to write hemispheric values through 395 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: the perception of images can be expected to increase the 396 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: sum total awareness of beauty. Yeah, one could hope some 397 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: version of that is true, you know. And in the 398 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:32,679 Speaker 1: book he does point out that when you look at 399 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, what are two of the most um 400 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: widespread images, like what, what are two pictures that are 401 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: probably going to show up in any discussion of the 402 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: twentieth century? And one is the picture of Earth as 403 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: a whole from space, and then the other is, uh 404 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: is the the detonation of an atomic bomb. There's a 405 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 1: sense of revelation in the photo in in the photograph 406 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: that is that it's harder to grasp in the word 407 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: I guess, or it's or at least it's it's harder, 408 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: it takes longer to convey the meaning. When I think 409 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: about those two images juxtaposed with one another, I think, 410 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: you know, they both kind of indicate that line from 411 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,880 Speaker 1: Auden's poem September one, ninety nine where he just says 412 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: we must love one another or die. I have a 413 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: feeling we're going to come back to that that kind 414 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: of proposal at the very end of this episode. Okay, 415 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: but first let's take a quick break, and when we 416 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: come back, we'll discuss some criticisms of Slane's argument. Thank you, alright, 417 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: we're back. So I guess at the end here we 418 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: should focus on a few general criticisms of Slane's theory. 419 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: I mean we we've peppered some of our critical thoughts throughout. 420 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: I don't want to sound too critical because on one hand, 421 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: I do think he brings up a lot of interesting 422 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: ideas and this is actually a book worth reading, even 423 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: though I think in the end I'm not persuaded by 424 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 1: his main argument, and I think his style of argumentation 425 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: is very loosey goosey, And it is important to and 426 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: drive home that it is. It is an argument, It 427 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: is a hypothesis. Is that he has not written the 428 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: Bible for us here and say here, here is the 429 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: absolute word he's saying, this is my hypothesis. And here's 430 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: how I would support that with our with with the 431 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: existing body of scientific, historical, cultural, archaeological evidence. Yes, I 432 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: do want to mention briefly one critical review, which was 433 00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: by the science writer Sandra Blakesley. If you're writing any 434 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: of her books, Robert, I don't believe so I think 435 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: I might there's one I've been looking at that was 436 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: about um. But she writes a lot about topics related 437 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: to neuroscience, and she co authored this book about how 438 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: stage magic can show us certain ways our mind plays 439 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: tricks on us. It seemed kind of interesting. I think 440 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: it's called Slights of Mind. But anyway, she wrote a 441 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: critical review for The New York Times in nine and 442 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: her main criticism is just that the book is she 443 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: accuses Schlaane of peddling just so stories. Now, this is 444 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: a term that often comes up to describe historical narrative 445 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: explanations for things that are offered without proof. And one 446 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: example would be I think this was actually somewhere in 447 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: the book, if I remember right. But anyway, why do 448 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: men in some cultures wear neckties? Well, let's say the 449 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: answer is it's because in our evolutionary history, dangling genitalia 450 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: was a sign of virility in males, and it was 451 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: a sign of good mate quality. So men want to 452 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 1: show off some kind of dangling object to set off 453 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 1: the same responses, so they wear neckties. Now, notice I 454 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: didn't provide any evidence that that's the reason. It's basically 455 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: just like I told a plausible story. I told a 456 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 1: story and you say, oh, I can see how that 457 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: might be the case. And these types of explanations are 458 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: often referred to pejoratively as just so stories. I just 459 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: told you a story, and well, that's just how it is, 460 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: and it has that kind of truthiness to it, and 461 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:54,479 Speaker 1: so you just buy into it. Yeah. Now, I do 462 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: think that the accusation of being a just so story 463 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: is unfairly leveled sometimes that explanations based in evolutionary anthropology 464 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 1: and psychology, because you know, after all, a hypothesis is 465 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:12,200 Speaker 1: often just an unproven, plausible explanation that's awaiting some supporting evidence. 466 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,959 Speaker 1: And so sometimes I think you see attacks on things, 467 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,120 Speaker 1: uh that attacks on things, calling them just so stories, 468 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: when really what you should be doing is, well, you know, 469 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: let's allow people some room to speculate. It's okay to 470 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: speculate as long as you remember what you're doing. You know, 471 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: you're not saying like, well, here's the facts, this is 472 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: how it is. You're saying, hey, what if this were true? 473 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: Would that you know, could we find some evidence to 474 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 1: support it? Yeah. It's not like say a conspiracy theory, 475 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: where you're saying, uh, where you're exploring that you're leaning 476 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: a bit too heavily into the what if exactly, And 477 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: you definitely can lean a little bit too heavily into 478 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 1: the what if, And I think maybe she Layne does 479 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: that in the book. I think we're slippery creatures. Often, 480 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: in the heat of our zeal to explain things, we 481 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: sort of forget that the ideas were entertaining for the 482 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: purpose of speculation are just speculation and want of good evidence, 483 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,640 Speaker 1: we start treating them as if the last thing I speculated, well, 484 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: We've got that proven. Now now I'm moving on to 485 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 1: the next thing, when really you haven't proven anything in 486 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: any step. You're just offering a lot of plausible, possible 487 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 1: explanations in a row. Yeah, and run the risk of 488 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,439 Speaker 1: creating something that is more like a religious framework for 489 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: understanding the past. Not that I'm saying that that this 490 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: is religion or aspiring to be religion, but sometimes I 491 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: feel like say that I feel that something like the 492 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 1: um the bicameral mind kind of it satisfies me. It 493 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: satisfies me in ways that I might look to religion 494 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: to satisfy me, and that it can it gives me 495 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: a model upon which I might make sense of the 496 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,120 Speaker 1: mysteries of the past. Yeah, it satisfies you because it's 497 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: interesting and because it gives you a way of contemplating 498 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: possible answers to two questions you you're probably never going 499 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: to have a really solid evidential answer for, you know, 500 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. And that's why, you know, hypotheses 501 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: like this and like the bicameral mind are interesting exactly 502 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: for this reason. They take a really big fundamental question 503 00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: or really big fundamental issue, offers some kind of radical 504 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: solution to it, and then they range over all different 505 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: types of subject matter and across different disciplines, drawing on 506 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: different types of evidence to to answer it. And so 507 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: for some reason that process is really fun. Like to 508 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: engage in that game of solving the puzzle and ranging 509 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: across all these different disciplines and going to all these 510 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: different places in history. It feels very good, at least 511 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: to me, it does. It. It's very satisfying, an emotionally 512 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: exciting journey. I'm not sure it necessarily provides the best, 513 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: strongest explanations for things. Yeah, it's like you're looking for shape. 514 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: It provides a shape. Is it the shape? Well maybe not, 515 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: but it forces you to ask questions. So then why 516 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: does this shape line up with at least certain aspects 517 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: of realities we understand it? And that's where that's where 518 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: it becomes such a a fascinating internal exploration. Now, one 519 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: way in which I would actually compare the b Cameral 520 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,960 Speaker 1: Mind favorably to this book is that I think that 521 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: Bi Camera, I think that Julian James is actually a 522 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: little bit more cautious than than Slayne is. I don't 523 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: know if you'd agree with that, but I feel like 524 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: he tends to take things slower and makes fewer broad generalizations. Yeah, yeah, 525 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 1: I would say so. And uh, you know, Julian Jayes 526 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,840 Speaker 1: also was He seemed willing to say is this right? 527 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 1: I don't know this is? But what this is the 528 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 1: model I'm presenting? You know, he would, well, and she 529 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: Leyne does that in his opening He basically says, this 530 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: whole book is a hypothesis. But then if you read 531 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 1: sentence to sentence throughout the rest of it, he doesn't 532 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 1: he doesn't continually acknowledge that. Well, but then again he 533 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: is making an impassioned argument for it, and the kind 534 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: of right brained argument. Yeah, so you kind of and 535 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 1: and I guess that's kind of a trap one risk 536 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,959 Speaker 1: falling into as a writer that you you become so 537 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: passionate about the theory that you're not stopping every few 538 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: paragraphs to remind everybody that's a hypothesis. I should also 539 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: point out in my saying this that I have read 540 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: more of Julian Jayne's work, like from from different points 541 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: in his career, and I have only read um this 542 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: one work of Schlaine's, and he has written other books, 543 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: So I don't know if this is I don't know 544 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: to what extent he comes back and subsequent um um 545 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: his subsequent writings and and sort of revisits any of this. Yeah, 546 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 1: I'd be interested to see that. I mean I I 547 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 1: so I didn't find anything about this theory being picked 548 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: up in an academic context. I mean Slaine was writing 549 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: for a popular audience, so he makes the argument in 550 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 1: a in a popular kind of way, and I think 551 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: that probably also gives him the freedom to take some 552 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: license with making kind of broad generalizations when he talks 553 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: like the Greeks were like this, and you know, the 554 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: right brain is like this, and men are like this 555 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: in every case, like the critical reader and me wants 556 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 1: to put a big asterisk every time he says something 557 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: like that and be like, well, wait a minute, So 558 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: you're saying, like, in what percent of the time is 559 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: it like that? How this also sounds like a great 560 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: framework for stand up comedy routine, the alphabet versus the 561 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: goddess as stand up I like it. All Right, we're 562 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: basically out of time here, but I do want to 563 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: touch on one last topic, one last goddess, and that 564 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: goddess is goes Er. Well let's goes there. Yeah, So 565 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 1: I am talking about the fictional entity from the the 566 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: film Ghostbusters goes through the Gazarian, goes through the destructor, 567 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: goes through the Traveler, et cetera, an entity of many names. 568 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 1: I have a question is Goeser in Anna? I think 569 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: should they say she's supposed to be Sumerian? She is 570 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: described as being a Sumerian, so she's a She's a 571 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: Type seven for starters. That's her like her spirit ranking 572 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: within the Ghostbusters um system. And we're told that it 573 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 1: was worshiped as a goddess by the Sumerians around six 574 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: thousand BC. That's significantly earlier than any Anana we know about, right, 575 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,239 Speaker 1: So the timeline is not going to perfectly line up 576 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: with what we've been talking about here. For instance, we 577 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: were talking about how Marduk worship began to to rise 578 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: in sec etcetera. But anyway, I do want to ask 579 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: everyone to consider consider the following in regards to Gozer. 580 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: So Gozer is a world destroying traveler, yet despite her 581 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: worship in ancient times, she did not lay waste to 582 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: the ancient world. Why not? Well, uh, let's let's remember 583 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: what we know about how Gozer functions. So Gozer's form 584 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: is chosen by the mortals it encounters our heroes and ghostbusters. 585 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: Imagine it is a Imagine it as a seemingly harmless 586 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: yet masculine corporate logo, and it's still rampages. Oh the marshmallow. Yeah. 587 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: The ancient Sumerians, however, chose the form of a goddess, 588 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,760 Speaker 1: one attended to by a pair of demi gods representing 589 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 1: each gender, both the vins Clortho the key Master and 590 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: Zul the Gatekeeper, and they seem to share equal footing 591 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: in their service to Gozer. Oh man, I'd say, if anything, 592 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: Zul is more powerful than Vince clarthough I don't know. Well, 593 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: it's hard, Well, can Evince Claro can do is just 594 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: run around saying your parish in flames. Here, you're thinking 595 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: of the of potential um complications based on their mortal hosts. 596 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, Sigourney Weaver's character clearly the more powerful human 597 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: host that was chosen. Well, I'm sorry for jumping me on. 598 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: I will wait for the sign. Okay. So this is 599 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,240 Speaker 1: my theory. Gozer does not destroy the ancient world because 600 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: it manifested during a time of goddess worship and was 601 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,719 Speaker 1: bound to a form, bound to a form by a 602 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: right brain culture rather than a left brain culture. So 603 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: the true way to avoid extinction at the hands of 604 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: gozer Uh is to choose a form that emanates from 605 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,880 Speaker 1: right brain qualities, or at least a more balanced mind state. 606 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: The modern brain, especially the modern male brain, is so 607 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: dominated than by the left brain the alphabet and infected 608 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 1: patriarchal energy that that even a cartoon marshmallow Man can 609 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 1: be nothing but a force of conquest in mass slaughter. 610 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,359 Speaker 1: And perhaps I'll even go so far as to say 611 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: maybe that's Gozer's true purpose, to wipe left brain dominated 612 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 1: species from the cosmos, because right brain dominated species are 613 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: going to see it as a goddess. Now there is 614 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: actually a great idea for a sci fi fantasy story. 615 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: You've got like a hemispheric lateralization culture where one side 616 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: brain culture fears being taken over by the other side 617 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: brain culture and they create a memetic weapon to destroy it. Yeah, 618 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: look at that. And we're giving it away for free 619 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: right here. We're not giving it away. You can't use it. 620 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: But but but yeah, inevitably, in talking about gods and goddesses, 621 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: I can't help but come back to fictional entities in 622 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: uh books and movies, and uh, it's really it's really 623 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 1: given me a new respect for Ghoser, not that I 624 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: ever disrespected Gozer. To be clear, anyway, you should tune 625 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: into our upcoming fictional podcast, The Ancient brain Bomb. I 626 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: mean it is telling to that Gozer is then defeated 627 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:40,919 Speaker 1: in Ghostbusters by a pack of men with phallic lightning swords. Yeah, 628 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: so predictable. And hey, I'm gonna say it here. As 629 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: funny as the movie is, as much as you love 630 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 1: the character, is that Binkman, he's not a nice guy. 631 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: He's no, he's he's a patriarchal jerk. Yeah, And so 632 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: that you have it a little bit of Ghostbusters to 633 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: cap off an exploration of the alphabet versus the Goddess. Now, 634 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: I think we should try to come back to some 635 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 1: of the more interesting questions raised by this book in 636 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: the future. I want to come back to the idea 637 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: of visual perception styles affecting the perception of time, uh, 638 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 1: the way that the way that our media really do 639 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: shape us. I mean, I'm sure there's all kinds of 640 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: research on how on how keyboard driven communication is changing 641 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: the what people communicate. Yeah, indeed. Plus there's so many 642 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,040 Speaker 1: just little, you know, brief moments in the book where 643 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: he touches on this culture or that or or For instance, 644 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: there's a bit where he talks about the Sistine Chapel 645 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 1: and I realized, oh man, there are a number of 646 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: kind of cool uh reads on the Sistine Chapel that 647 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: have come out over the years. Would be neat to 648 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,480 Speaker 1: corral them all into a single podcast. He's got a 649 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: really interesting and really fun chapter on Dionysus and the 650 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: mine Ads and and that kind of stuff in ancient Greece. 651 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: I actually think it doesn't help his art, doesn't help 652 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: his overall argument all that well, but it's just interesting 653 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: to revisit his treatment of it. On its own and 654 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: again if you want to check out the book and 655 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 1: its entirety, I will I'm going to include a link 656 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: to it on the landing page for this episode of 657 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind dot com, as well as 658 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,319 Speaker 1: a link to the homepage for it, which has a 659 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: wonderful timeline for the hypothesis as well listing out various 660 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: historical UH moments and UH technological achievements that line up 661 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: with his hypothesis. And while you're at stuff to Blow 662 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com, you can check out all the 663 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: episodes of the podcast. You can check out links to 664 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 1: our various social media accounts and UH. As I've been saying, 665 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: if you want to support this podcast, a great way 666 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: to do it is to rate and review wherever you 667 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,399 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Big thank you as always to our 668 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: wonderful audio producers Alex Williams and Tarry Harrison. If you 669 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: would like to get in touch with us directly to 670 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: let us know feedback on this episode or any other 671 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: suggest a topic for the future, UH, to share your 672 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: thoughts with us on anything you think we might be 673 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: interested in, or just to say hi, you can always 674 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: email us at blow the Mind at how stuff Works 675 00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:09,240 Speaker 1: dot com. For more on this and thousands of other topics, 676 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: does it, How stuff works? Dot Com, The biffer Ma