Speaker 1: Welcome to All the Smoke, a production of The Black
Speaker 1: Effect and our Heart Radio in partnership with Showtime. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to another edition All the Smoke. Our third and
Speaker 1: final day in New York has been a good run. Jack.
Speaker 1: Good to see you, my brother. You know that we
Speaker 1: got a special guest. Uh, former teammate of Stack. Brother
Speaker 1: runs the best Drive Nation program out there at Dallas,
Speaker 1: got the best tournaments. Got a great little situation said
Speaker 1: about there. Welcome to show, Jermaine O'Neil. Man. Let's get
Speaker 1: right into it. Man, You've got something, A big project
Speaker 1: you've been working on. Untold comes out of Netflix, The
Speaker 1: Alice at the Palace. August Tip talked to us about
Speaker 1: that and your involvement in it. Man. Honestly, it's been, uh,
Speaker 1: it's been about really ten years. I've been looking to
Speaker 1: try to get into this film thing. Obviously, Jack, he
Speaker 1: was involved with this. So you know how I feel
Speaker 1: about like the stories and the narratives of of things
Speaker 1: that out there. Right. Um, So, I when I'd have
Speaker 1: met with a bunch of different producers directors, didn't really
Speaker 1: feel like people understood where I was trying to go
Speaker 1: with it. The idea behind the film was not to
Speaker 1: the abbot NBA fan, but just to the actual person,
Speaker 1: regular everyday person that actually knew about the malice. Right.
Speaker 1: It was a conclusion that was out there that we
Speaker 1: never actually got an opportunity to talk about. So I
Speaker 1: wanted to do a film that spoke to that, to
Speaker 1: that person because, to be quite honest, Uh, seventeen years later,
Speaker 1: just tired of talking about it while it has an anniversary.
Speaker 1: So I felt like this Doctorum was able to give
Speaker 1: us our platform. Uh, now you have people have to
Speaker 1: be able to make a conclusion on actual facts actually,
Speaker 1: and that somebody else sitting on on accouch somewhere, you know,
Speaker 1: writing them some articles that they don't know because it's
Speaker 1: been almost like urban legend, you know. I mean, that
Speaker 1: was one of the biggest incidents in NBA history, and
Speaker 1: it's almost has been like urban legends. Part what happened
Speaker 1: were led up to it? What happened after all? This
Speaker 1: kind of shift. So you guys finally got a chance
Speaker 1: to tell that. What do you want the average fan
Speaker 1: of the average person to take away from this stock Well,
Speaker 1: you know, first, like I gotta say a big thank
Speaker 1: you to Netflix for given an opportunity perfect time and
Speaker 1: the way brothers um they understood uh, Florida director understood division. Right,
Speaker 1: that was important. They were able to get it. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, this dock is is important to me
Speaker 1: um in many ways because it allows people and when
Speaker 1: people think about the brawl, they always you don't care
Speaker 1: where I'm at a man, I'm a gonna scrap some
Speaker 1: people talking about they don't know everything else we went on.
Speaker 1: This went on for like ten years, bro, Like I
Speaker 1: had a felony, the same charge you'll get for shooting
Speaker 1: and stabbing somebody, you know what I'm saying. And it
Speaker 1: was like a situation where to me, beyond even those things,
Speaker 1: it allowed people to take shots at a culture, right,
Speaker 1: take shots at our league, and still not be able
Speaker 1: to have a conversational, real educated conversation about what actually
Speaker 1: really happened. Right, And this is what this doc really
Speaker 1: gives you people opportunity to kind of relate to and say, Okay, damn,
Speaker 1: that was that was. It was much bigger than them
Speaker 1: throwing hands. They just looked at us, some rich thugs
Speaker 1: out there. They didn't take time to comprehend nothing, why
Speaker 1: I went down, why we wasn't protected, how we was treated.
Speaker 1: None of that matter, So I'm excited to be involved.
Speaker 1: Uh And it's doc and I'm glad I was happening.
Speaker 1: Jail called me because, like you said, I'm tired of
Speaker 1: talking about it too, you know what I mean? And
Speaker 1: you do you do more? And it's doctor here our side.
Speaker 1: You see actual footage, you know what I mean. To
Speaker 1: you can judge for yourself to see how we was
Speaker 1: treated and how we wasn't protected, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And and then a lot of things gonna come to light.
Speaker 1: So I can't wait till I can't wait to the
Speaker 1: World season August time. And my brothers are also executive
Speaker 1: producer in it. So how was that night impact of
Speaker 1: your career after that? Well? I know, but tell them,
Speaker 1: you know, I know firsthand. Um, to me, wasn't even
Speaker 1: about just the basketball. I remember, I remember, you know,
Speaker 1: going getting back, getting re estated. A lot of people
Speaker 1: don't even know I took the NBA the court in
Speaker 1: one Yeah, tell us about that, you know. So I
Speaker 1: feel always that that day, Yeah, we felt like we
Speaker 1: had the right to do what we did right, And
Speaker 1: so going going through that whole arbitration, if I didn't
Speaker 1: if if I didn't have to go through the arbitration
Speaker 1: to get to the federal court, out have been back
Speaker 1: playing sooner. So I went through a situation where the
Speaker 1: judge said, hey, you had the right to do what
Speaker 1: you it and it was it was to me when
Speaker 1: you talk about career and all this other stuff. That's
Speaker 1: the part that that made me a little bit better
Speaker 1: towards everything, because the NBA had an opportunity to write it,
Speaker 1: to write it right. The Pacers had an opportunity to
Speaker 1: write it. Understood bottom line, numbers matter the most, right.
Speaker 1: They didn't know how to handle it um. So I
Speaker 1: understood that part. But once we went to court and
Speaker 1: got through that process, you would think that they would
Speaker 1: have said, okay, we're good. But they didn't write I
Speaker 1: come back. I get reinstated at the fifteen games. So
Speaker 1: you got fifteen, you got thirty, got shortened, you had
Speaker 1: thirty all of them. I'll tell you what mine didn't
Speaker 1: give you do stuff. The same day ran did something
Speaker 1: else crazy during the middle of the arbitration. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was crazy because again, if I don't have to go
Speaker 1: through the whole process of arbitration, I would have been
Speaker 1: back playing. So I get back I get reinstated and
Speaker 1: I still give I still make the All Star team, right,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm voting in as a starter and my wife
Speaker 1: get to Houston. It ain't a picture for me to
Speaker 1: be found you like that, Dade not working with me.
Speaker 1: They're not working with me. And that was the first
Speaker 1: time I understood when I when I'm telling y'all, no
Speaker 1: picture nowhere, Like I'm a starter, right, So those are
Speaker 1: the picture that you see first unless they see you
Speaker 1: walking around, they wouldn't even know I'm looking through the books.
Speaker 1: No picture, right, And so that was like the moment
Speaker 1: where I really like really understood what that was, like
Speaker 1: what the impact of that was, and um that to
Speaker 1: me again, it wasn't personal for me. The thing that
Speaker 1: bothered me the most is when people of quote unquote
Speaker 1: substance that are talking about Jack me Ron, the NBA players, braids, tattoos,
Speaker 1: music culture, culture that was at things for me bro right,
Speaker 1: because now they are allowed to do. Bob Costs was
Speaker 1: one got a lot of respect for Bob Costs. Watch
Speaker 1: the dog, watch the thing that thug World was thrown
Speaker 1: out there probably a thousand times, a thousand times. All
Speaker 1: of a sudden, it's it's it's about you know, hip
Speaker 1: hop music we listened to. It's about our corners, about
Speaker 1: our tattoos, about the color of your skin. Not knowing
Speaker 1: that day hockey, right, I remember going through the whole
Speaker 1: arbitration process and the lawyers bringing up some hockey stuff,
Speaker 1: celebrated get to beat the hell out of each other
Speaker 1: on the regular basis, people routing that on right, they
Speaker 1: ain't talking about the hairstyle. They ain't talking about the music.
Speaker 1: They're listening to baseball same way. Right, you get to
Speaker 1: get the rush, the mount getting through some hands, but
Speaker 1: they ain't thugs. So to me, it became more about
Speaker 1: a race thing, and and it put our league in
Speaker 1: a position, and we all care about the league. It's
Speaker 1: been special to was in the special to our families,
Speaker 1: not only for us person but generationally right, And so
Speaker 1: that was the thing that was was hurtful towards me.
Speaker 1: And we had to have a muzzle because we still
Speaker 1: got criminal that we're dealing with and got civil standing
Speaker 1: right behind it. How long we was in court and
Speaker 1: all that dragon back and forth. Man, people don't even
Speaker 1: understand that, so you know, So to me, it wasn't
Speaker 1: necessarily about the career because honestly, after that point I
Speaker 1: understood what it was. Right. It was no debate, right.
Speaker 1: You know, you have to be stupid death for blind
Speaker 1: to understand not understand what was happening. Right, you know,
Speaker 1: I knew that the league was really fucking with me
Speaker 1: before and then afterwards, you know, had the opportunity people
Speaker 1: don't know, the stack knows us, had opportunities that I I
Speaker 1: don't even You might not even notice that opportunity to
Speaker 1: step away from Brian and Jack in the whole projects
Speaker 1: all to separate yourself and happen. Okay, And I say that, um,
Speaker 1: the league. I took a call the day after. People
Speaker 1: don't even notice, and they asked me, um to do
Speaker 1: a couple of things. And what I did, what Jack
Speaker 1: did was in straight protection of my teammates. Right. When
Speaker 1: people talk about leadership, people talk about togetherness, people talk
Speaker 1: about brotherhood, that is tested when your asses in uh
Speaker 1: twenty ced arena and people at you right, and so
Speaker 1: you know, to go back to the question, the career
Speaker 1: thing wasn't necessarily the issue. Um, it was perception, because
Speaker 1: I'm still dealing with that today. I was in Vegas
Speaker 1: this past weekend and I might have nine people might
Speaker 1: have asked me about I can't. I cannot step away
Speaker 1: from it. I'm almost tired of talking about it, to
Speaker 1: be honest, because kids are asking me that wasn't even born.
Speaker 1: So you know, from a career standpoint, I still end
Speaker 1: up played eighteen years. The thing that I'm mad about
Speaker 1: the most, I didn't get an opportunity to I'm the
Speaker 1: only one that actually didn't get the opportunity. With the
Speaker 1: championship in the Hope pros said, and you have Reggie
Speaker 1: up and Reggie yeah, but talked to that too, because Jack,
Speaker 1: I want to get back to you and which you
Speaker 1: went through and the ship you talked about. But in
Speaker 1: the midst of all that's going on, you guys have
Speaker 1: one of the best teams in the league that year.
Speaker 1: We were the best team in the league when that happened.
Speaker 1: Facts facts, There's no question. Um, but we wont We
Speaker 1: had the best record of yere before and got beating
Speaker 1: the conference finals. Body Truck. We knew going we hadn't already,
Speaker 1: you know, the trader for Jack. We came back to camp,
Speaker 1: everybody was in town early. We was like, we're about
Speaker 1: to win this. We bout we bout the whoop and everybody.
Speaker 1: And then when that happened, it like it wasn't a
Speaker 1: situation like you knew right away after that day that
Speaker 1: it was. It was done right. And I remember going
Speaker 1: and talking to Donnie and Larry and them and say, hey,
Speaker 1: look man, like let's just hold on winning. Heels everything right,
Speaker 1: I mean, just you know, every things happen in professional
Speaker 1: sports that year. The coach had some things going on
Speaker 1: their team, they held it together like family would do,
Speaker 1: like any any other family, and they didn't and it
Speaker 1: just remember just you know, the city was broken, um,
Speaker 1: the league was broken because they felt pressure from corporate
Speaker 1: America about doing something and making change. His dress code
Speaker 1: pops up right afterwards. You know, people looking at us,
Speaker 1: you know, the same hugs and kiss as you get
Speaker 1: walking into places you ain't getting no more because you know,
Speaker 1: people feel like you. The reason and the thing that
Speaker 1: I'm probably most disappointed about the most when we talk
Speaker 1: about journalism, right, the lack of people, the lack of
Speaker 1: professionalism that people had towards this process right, not doing
Speaker 1: the work. Not doing it wasn't even about being writers,
Speaker 1: about being first. What kind of story can I put
Speaker 1: out there about this without actually not having any facts
Speaker 1: behind it, Jack to what happened. So let me interview
Speaker 1: you for a second. So when you said you got
Speaker 1: thirty games and you had to do all because Ron
Speaker 1: did something else during your arbitration, well, basically Jail went first,
Speaker 1: and he basically laid the blueprint for us to all
Speaker 1: possibly get our games reduced, right because Jail, Jail touched
Speaker 1: on something that nobody thought of when he went up
Speaker 1: to I remember this Vivilaine Jail saying, No, I hear
Speaker 1: what everybody's saying, But Mica, sign is how my kids
Speaker 1: gonna look at me after watching this on TV all
Speaker 1: day and that total room down, like they initially like, wow,
Speaker 1: we need we're not thinking about your families and like that.
Speaker 1: And that's why Jail got his games reduced because he
Speaker 1: brought a different side of that nobody was thinking about,
Speaker 1: right Son, as if I'm sitting there and Jail was
Speaker 1: killing it, he over there killing the Ron slides a
Speaker 1: letter over to me men arbitration, and everybody seen him
Speaker 1: do it. You remember this well, and everybody likes pay attention, bro,
Speaker 1: And I don't even want to take it, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, because like everybody looking at us now,
Speaker 1: and the letter said, did you really hint the guy
Speaker 1: I'm like, you asked me that's doing the middle arborit
Speaker 1: trais when we're trying to get our games re dudes
Speaker 1: and and and then to my when he sleep it over. Man,
Speaker 1: it was loud and everybody looked, you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: something like, damn not know, we ain't gonna get our
Speaker 1: games with dudes, and we didn't. I get update, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, I basically said, I just said the exact
Speaker 1: thing Jamas said. But I was like, you know, that's
Speaker 1: my teammker. You know what I'm saying, We're family. I'm
Speaker 1: with him one with my I'm with my own family
Speaker 1: doing the course of the year. So I just I
Speaker 1: just did what a teammate should do. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't really elaborate
Speaker 1: on nothing else and they and they didn't reduce my games.
Speaker 1: But we still made the playoffs, still made it out
Speaker 1: the first round. Then we did we get to the
Speaker 1: second round. Still after all that was still made into
Speaker 1: the second round. So that's how I know that team
Speaker 1: is good, you know what I'm saying. But if ron
Speaker 1: would have been more locked in if at the arbitration
Speaker 1: and he came dressed the path man. He had on
Speaker 1: some tux sedo pants with a whole another different color
Speaker 1: suit jacket with some with some basketball like he like,
Speaker 1: he did not take it serious at all. He did
Speaker 1: not take it serious at all. Bro And and that's
Speaker 1: a big reason why I made him to get out,
Speaker 1: because he was talking doing the harbor traction and all
Speaker 1: kindstuff that was unnecessary. But I would say this though,
Speaker 1: right like, it's like the human element that was that
Speaker 1: was lost in this entire process, right. And I remember
Speaker 1: saying this on the stands when the prosecutor was it
Speaker 1: was a question to me, I said, He asked, what
Speaker 1: you do this again? I said, in the same position, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I said, would you go and knock on my door
Speaker 1: and tell my wife and kids that the dad that
Speaker 1: their dad and and and her husband is dead if
Speaker 1: one of those chairs hit me in my head? I said,
Speaker 1: So you have to ask yourself, what would you do
Speaker 1: in a situation like that where it is no police
Speaker 1: officers in there, and any bar he thought beer and
Speaker 1: somebody face that's the saut that's a st anywhere else.
Speaker 1: But when it comes to dealing with a million dollar
Speaker 1: black athletes, it's thugs going into the stands. And I
Speaker 1: saw two on your breakfast club in and be recently
Speaker 1: Jack that if you guys didn't react to the beer
Speaker 1: being thrown, the fan would just probably got to throw
Speaker 1: the beer. That's basically what it was. And you right, man,
Speaker 1: no one would have happened to him. It's just been
Speaker 1: a panther on the beard. They would have highlighted it,
Speaker 1: but they wouldn't kicked him out, you know, suspended for
Speaker 1: coming to games and nothing like that. J. You don't
Speaker 1: really you're not really out in the media. You don't
Speaker 1: really speak much. But it was known kind of around
Speaker 1: the league that you don't have to get into super detail.
Speaker 1: But you've got a hard time kind of forgiving um
Speaker 1: the whole process. And there was a rift between you
Speaker 1: and Ron for a while and it finally came you know,
Speaker 1: you guys just you know, you got cool a little
Speaker 1: while ago. But how hard was that, Like I said,
Speaker 1: just the overall understanding of the process and then kind
Speaker 1: of the internal riff with you too. Well think if
Speaker 1: you know me, like you know, I'm about the right thing, right,
Speaker 1: Um I am? I am very intense in many ways.
Speaker 1: I am a zero to ten guy, But um, I
Speaker 1: like to talk things through and and Ron what I what?
Speaker 1: I Here's what I wish I would have knew back
Speaker 1: then that I know now. It's his struggles, right. Mental
Speaker 1: health is the real thing in our in our world,
Speaker 1: and we all deal with things a little bit differently. Um.
Speaker 1: He he was dealing with it in a way that
Speaker 1: I didn't understand. But it's not to cut you off,
Speaker 1: but we're just starting to talk about mental health now
Speaker 1: and thinking about this is seventeen years ago, so this
Speaker 1: is not even registering with us really as anybody really
Speaker 1: registering with us. So go ahead. And I took it
Speaker 1: as as disrespect I mean, Jack was in a lot.
Speaker 1: I just took it as he was being disrespectful to
Speaker 1: all of our time and effort, right, and the pacers
Speaker 1: was doing the best job. But they could I think
Speaker 1: at the time, together to hold it together, because um,
Speaker 1: he would. We did just didn't know. I mean, he
Speaker 1: would just not show up the stuff, right. I mean
Speaker 1: people don't realize too, um that it really for us.
Speaker 1: It started for me and him. It started the year
Speaker 1: before in the conference finals, right where at the game
Speaker 1: that Redgie got blocked. Um, we didn't see him. Remember,
Speaker 1: you know, when you go from your home to the
Speaker 1: way game is like two games in between. We didn't
Speaker 1: see him until shoot around two days later. Right, And
Speaker 1: so that was kind of a real moment where I
Speaker 1: would just I was just I was past the point
Speaker 1: of friendliness, right. I wanted to scrap like all the time,
Speaker 1: but I was uneducated, right. I wish I was able
Speaker 1: to be a better teammate to him versus being aggressive
Speaker 1: towards him, being more of a brother tour right, because
Speaker 1: again I didn't know um. And so I had an opportunity,
Speaker 1: um to uh sit down with him, you know, shout
Speaker 1: out to the big three. It was the first time
Speaker 1: I actually had lunch with him since the time that
Speaker 1: long How long ago was this? That was two years ago?
Speaker 1: And me and him just set and had lunch together
Speaker 1: and we kind of talked things through. UM, and we're
Speaker 1: just in a better place. The one thing that has
Speaker 1: keeps getting lost in his dog that he did two
Speaker 1: years ago. Uh, and even this doc, I'm like, damn,
Speaker 1: why the hell you know, things I'm saying about him
Speaker 1: isn't getting put into the dock. It seemed like they
Speaker 1: want to keep the Yeah, that that drift between and him.
Speaker 1: I'm super proud of where he is today. It takes
Speaker 1: a lot for a man to talk openly about his
Speaker 1: failures and his struggles and stuff like that. You know,
Speaker 1: we're all proful, you know men, And to hear him
Speaker 1: say that, um means a lot. And I'm I'm I'm
Speaker 1: proud of him from that perspective, but it's also big
Speaker 1: of you. You know, they're kind of taking you know,
Speaker 1: you're taking a step back. It's been seventeen years removed,
Speaker 1: but trying to see, even though you were part of
Speaker 1: to see where you could have been better at two
Speaker 1: And I know Jack has done this before too, to
Speaker 1: just to kind of see like, damn, you know I
Speaker 1: could have did this better to help maybe it would
Speaker 1: have changed this. And most people just like you know,
Speaker 1: funking it's his problem, he should have did this, But
Speaker 1: you know, to also you point the finger at yourself
Speaker 1: feeling like where you could have did better as a
Speaker 1: person to try to hopefully solve. So that's growth, and
Speaker 1: you know, obviously you know with us being a lot older,
Speaker 1: but that's I feel a different type of way man,
Speaker 1: because the same counselor. They had him saying they act
Speaker 1: they asked me to see and I wasn't doing those things.
Speaker 1: Who at the time, I was really insensitive to what
Speaker 1: he was going through, you know what I'm saying, because
Speaker 1: we're seeing the same lady. They got us talking to
Speaker 1: the same lady. But I ain't doing the dumb ship
Speaker 1: you're doing, you know what I'm saying. They called him
Speaker 1: me crazy too, but I ain't doing the dumb ship
Speaker 1: he was he was doing, So I was kind of
Speaker 1: incensive to it too. Can we talk to the same lady?
Speaker 1: And really I feel like I was wasting my time
Speaker 1: talking to him, you know what I'm saying. But they
Speaker 1: felt like men wrong in the same boat or something.
Speaker 1: So I'm sitting there talking to him later, and you know,
Speaker 1: after we talked to he gonna do something else crazy.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, look man, I don't I don't know
Speaker 1: what's going on, you know what I'm saying. So I
Speaker 1: was I was kind of the same way. I was
Speaker 1: insensitive too. So before we leave this, I just want
Speaker 1: to say, both of them dudes are luckiest fun that
Speaker 1: both of you guys didn't have solid footing. It's all
Speaker 1: I'm trying. Yes, yes, both of you guys slipped. Luckily,
Speaker 1: by the grace of God. God, let y'all slip a
Speaker 1: little bit because y'all with the motherfucker Daffy Duck. Both
Speaker 1: of them dudes like knocked their beak to the back.
Speaker 1: I gotta I got a good one off with you
Speaker 1: right about the planet. Yeah, I wouldn't tell both, especially him.
Speaker 1: Could you see Jake that slipped stopping from getting murdered.
Speaker 1: But y'all don't realize. So what you do not see
Speaker 1: is so I had just it was a guy I
Speaker 1: don't know if it was an usher whatever that grabbed
Speaker 1: me around my neck and he choked the usher right,
Speaker 1: And so at that point, I'm in straight reaction mode,
Speaker 1: like it's all the stuff that was on the table
Speaker 1: that nobody chose to use, like the league or nobody
Speaker 1: chose to use it. They just chose to use the
Speaker 1: slide and punch, right, So I boom put him on
Speaker 1: the table, right. I turned to my left. I see
Speaker 1: Anthony Johnson on the floor. I never even sold that
Speaker 1: her dad, dude get into it one. I see Anthony
Speaker 1: Johns on the super broken hand and I just sprint
Speaker 1: over there. Because he's standing over him. Yeah, he's standing
Speaker 1: over him. So at that point I was like, look,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna clean up everything, right, anything that comes near,
Speaker 1: I'm cleaning it up big. This twenty something jail, he's
Speaker 1: already big at the house, right down these arms. At
Speaker 1: twenty something, I remember jail. The strong motherfuck boy thing.
Speaker 1: I think the craziest part about it bro this whole
Speaker 1: process of the craziness. They come in, they try to
Speaker 1: pepper spay us, the players, trying to take us to jail,
Speaker 1: and we got hit with every beverage at the concession
Speaker 1: that ever had in the arena about it there, you know,
Speaker 1: oddly enough, I mean, this happened seventeen years ago, but
Speaker 1: this ship kind of reared its head again in the
Speaker 1: NBA this season with spitting on people and throwing bottle
Speaker 1: bottles at people. To be and Stephen Jackson because to me,
Speaker 1: and again, like I think fans feel like they're they
Speaker 1: can comment like they're going to the zoo, and you
Speaker 1: can poke it the like look at this as animals,
Speaker 1: And I can say and do and throw anything I
Speaker 1: want because I paid good money for this ticket. And
Speaker 1: that's the furthest thing from the truth, and I'm surprised
Speaker 1: what happened with you guys doesn't have more often because
Speaker 1: fans are still completely out of hand. And it's crazy
Speaker 1: to me because it always seems like the league is
Speaker 1: trying to protect the fans and doesn't really give a
Speaker 1: funk about what's going on with the players. You know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting that you know, I'm sure we all about
Speaker 1: like going into opposing arena. Um it's special. Stop, I
Speaker 1: love it, right, yes, special being in that environment and
Speaker 1: people yelling and screaming. It's a balance though, right, Always
Speaker 1: tell people you treat me to what you treat me.
Speaker 1: If if you stand in front of base things because
Speaker 1: you spin on me, I don't care where we at.
Speaker 1: You don't care in game out, game church like whatever
Speaker 1: it is, like, it's gonna, it's gonna happen. So now
Speaker 1: that you want, you want the interaction amongst players and fans.
Speaker 1: You don't fans. You do not own the players because
Speaker 1: you pay for your ticket. That does not mean you
Speaker 1: own the players, right, And I think once they get
Speaker 1: that balance back, understand that we humans and we we
Speaker 1: have families and all that other stuff, then I fall
Speaker 1: into place where hopefully the NBA get that cleaned up
Speaker 1: in other leadues because I really feel like fans are
Speaker 1: out of hand and sometimes the fan needs to ship
Speaker 1: the ship knocked out under make him realize. You remember
Speaker 1: after that, I got traded to go to State and
Speaker 1: we planed a utah. They got a life size cut
Speaker 1: out of me in the jail uniforms, the under the basket.
Speaker 1: The NBA didn't say nothing, then say moving than nothing.
Speaker 1: It's right there and camera view, bro. Just because of that,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying with them corners nigga, this nigger, nigger.
Speaker 1: This It was crazy. It was nuts. But anyway, moving on,
Speaker 1: check out check the doc Man August time Netflix. Yeah,
Speaker 1: jail Mann's opportunity to tell the full story unseen for it.
Speaker 1: Don't miss it. But the rumors asleep looking forward to it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: moving forward, Uh seven one agency, U and T Max
Speaker 1: started talk to us how that got started? Man? It
Speaker 1: really honestly, man, Uh, they're trying to figure out what
Speaker 1: to do with all of damn money. They still got boys,
Speaker 1: Let's do something man got damn Yeah, for real with
Speaker 1: it really and really you know you notice right, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's a situation where in you sports man, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of falsehoods, right, and these kids opportunities dwindling
Speaker 1: based off bad information. I always tell my parents and
Speaker 1: my organizations that, look, you know, would you allow a
Speaker 1: career law and care service got to do your accounting? Hm?
Speaker 1: Not nobody do that ship like that, right, So why
Speaker 1: are you bound people to hand to your kids and
Speaker 1: give you this information that, by the way, it don't
Speaker 1: make no sense. It may not suited to give in
Speaker 1: the first place, exactly, And to me and Matt was
Speaker 1: actually um talking about it. And really, to be honest,
Speaker 1: jacket happened that right after George Floyd because we were
Speaker 1: talking because you heard about a lot about systemic oppression
Speaker 1: right in our in our areas, right, And what that
Speaker 1: to us, what that means is information and tools, right,
Speaker 1: the lack of information and tools. And I remember going
Speaker 1: into my wife donated some money to um a school
Speaker 1: in South Dallas and and this was like in nineteen
Speaker 1: they didn't have an operating computer in the entire school.
Speaker 1: Team bro. And so we said, me and Matt was
Speaker 1: talking one day he caught me at the right time.
Speaker 1: I was. I had just got off a call with
Speaker 1: another agency that I was trying to spark a deal
Speaker 1: with and I was telling what I was gonna do
Speaker 1: some man, I'm in I we need to do this.
Speaker 1: And that's how it really happened. Right. We want to
Speaker 1: be leaders in the space and and and because we've
Speaker 1: been through it, right, we understand it the highest level,
Speaker 1: at the highest level, and not only the good part
Speaker 1: about it, but also the bad parts about it. Right,
Speaker 1: like the struggle, right, what that is, and the struggle
Speaker 1: is what makes us who we are. And so you
Speaker 1: know the idea of of men Matt getting together working
Speaker 1: on Mike vic now to uh, well Mike get to
Speaker 1: get to get the contract back in brothers and we
Speaker 1: get football side, that would be dope. Yeah, that'll be
Speaker 1: really dopey. Have you got So is it officially? Is
Speaker 1: it started yet or you guys still in the process
Speaker 1: of So it's official now? It was official. Now. We
Speaker 1: went through almost a three month process of negotiations with
Speaker 1: a bunch of different agencies. But we realized that they
Speaker 1: basically wanted us to work for him and do the
Speaker 1: same work, so we might as well funded ourselves and
Speaker 1: owning ourselves, um and put our own DNA and I
Speaker 1: bring old blood into it. So we're super excited about it.
Speaker 1: Man um um. You know it's a special air right
Speaker 1: now with n I L stuff going on. Shout out
Speaker 1: to you know whoever had hands in on that. Now
Speaker 1: these kids can make some money off their likeness. Not
Speaker 1: just the schools. I wanted to ask. I mean, also,
Speaker 1: you have your beautiful facility out there in Dallas. You
Speaker 1: throw the End of the Summer and me throw a
Speaker 1: handful of tournaments. But you have the End of the
Speaker 1: Summer tournament that's coming up in a couple of weeks
Speaker 1: that we'll be at for the second time. But how
Speaker 1: did that come about too? Because you have a beautiful facility,
Speaker 1: I know, you know, rest in peace. Kobe, he was
Speaker 1: doing the mamba stuff out here and he started to
Speaker 1: kind of capitalize on that, and I went to Dallas.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, oh, ship, jail, ship is incredible. Have
Speaker 1: you been to this ship out there? No? But I
Speaker 1: I was. I was when he first bought the land,
Speaker 1: like he was. I was talking to him going all
Speaker 1: that time. He had so many pitches. Talk to us
Speaker 1: how that went. Because I know that the city helped
Speaker 1: you do it, correct, Yeah, help help helped support it.
Speaker 1: But talk to us how that process went because I
Speaker 1: think it's beautiful. I mean, you have a U basketball
Speaker 1: your daughters, and you have to have volleyball. You have
Speaker 1: kind of just a whole year round facility. That's absolutely beautiful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: shout out Asia, She's she's been, she's my daughter. Is
Speaker 1: actually the reason why the facility happened. We moved to Texas,
Speaker 1: uh seven years ago, eight years ago something like that.
Speaker 1: Maybe my wife probably nine years ago. But um, long
Speaker 1: story short, Um, we had to take her to different
Speaker 1: places to get all the services, and only services I
Speaker 1: knew was out of one building as a pro right,
Speaker 1: So that was the idea of building it. Obviously Dallas
Speaker 1: has a ton of different facilities, you know, but none
Speaker 1: of them was built like that. Still going to stop
Speaker 1: shot right, one stop shot. Um. It was one of
Speaker 1: the hardest things I've ever did in my life. Bro
Speaker 1: to be honest. Um, you know, so times, you know,
Speaker 1: society reminds you, um on what's going on. The builder
Speaker 1: that built that facility had just built another one. Literally
Speaker 1: walked off that site to my site to start building.
Speaker 1: And it was two owners in the previous facility. That
Speaker 1: one was did hotels, one day restaurants, um and so
Speaker 1: he brought a banking company and we brought to banking
Speaker 1: institutions with him, and they funded it. When they came
Speaker 1: to me like I'm career sports, got right, prime, real estate,
Speaker 1: balance sheet, everything, I couldn't get a loan. Really, I
Speaker 1: end up building like they went through the whole dog
Speaker 1: and ponies. And this is why I knew this was
Speaker 1: God's will and God's plan, because other doors kept opening,
Speaker 1: and so I ended up building that facility myself cash right,
Speaker 1: So FOURT team nobody never builds you know you know
Speaker 1: you too, that's yeah, And it was one of those things,
Speaker 1: is bro wave. Just I knew it was God's will
Speaker 1: because now I was leading into other things rather seven
Speaker 1: one or whethers. You know, we're doing filming about to
Speaker 1: start telling stories and in the UTH sports space too.
Speaker 1: So UM, ultimately it's a legacy project for me. Um.
Speaker 1: We had guys like Kay Cunningham is out of my program,
Speaker 1: um r J Hampton who's drafted last year, UM, Terris Maxie,
Speaker 1: Jamia's Ramsey Drew Timmy at Gonzaga. UM tell me, yeah,
Speaker 1: we have a ton of ton of players out of there,
Speaker 1: Sam Williams and um. So it's really one of those
Speaker 1: things where I want to look back, um at the
Speaker 1: impact that we've had, not only on the surface, but
Speaker 1: away from the service because we take kids out to
Speaker 1: the communities, bringing truckloads of food, donate money to schools,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of the whole thing. And we're gonna
Speaker 1: do these and other places back in my hometown, working
Speaker 1: to deal with in Columbia, South Carolina, we're gonna build
Speaker 1: one and also one uh in Buffalo. So looking at
Speaker 1: you know, that's the space I want to be in,
Speaker 1: very passionate about it. Give some of these kids an opportunity,
Speaker 1: um that I had. Well, it's just the ship we
Speaker 1: wish we had when we were younger, you know. I
Speaker 1: mean we're playing outside or playing in these dusty gyms,
Speaker 1: and I mean you have a stead of our facility.
Speaker 1: Like you said, it's a one stop shop with basketball, volleyball.
Speaker 1: You got the soccer field in the back, you got
Speaker 1: the weight room, you got the training, you got everything.
Speaker 1: So it's a beautiful thing. I just don't give us
Speaker 1: no fucking eight AI end games, bro coming all the
Speaker 1: way from don't give us that motherfucking We're gonna be
Speaker 1: all right. I got you, bro, Hey talked to us
Speaker 1: about your upbringing, Um, South Carolina? What was like when
Speaker 1: did you find basketball family dynamic? You know, I think
Speaker 1: we all have, you know, different stories when it comes
Speaker 1: to our upbringing. Um, South Carolina's Columbia in particular. Um,
Speaker 1: it took a community to raise me right. Didn't know
Speaker 1: my father right until I was thirty. Um, you know
Speaker 1: my high school coast George Glenn shout out to him,
Speaker 1: Old Claire High School, entire community out of metro. Um,
Speaker 1: the city. I really took the time with me, remember, Um,
Speaker 1: you know, I was, I was, I was, I was.
Speaker 1: The streets is all we know is in our inner
Speaker 1: city areas, right, and that is those are the leaders
Speaker 1: for us in many ways. And sometimes the O G
Speaker 1: s uh they do it right, sometimes they do it wrong.
Speaker 1: Mind did it right right? When they started seeing me
Speaker 1: progressed as an athlete, they started pushing me to the side, like, right,
Speaker 1: you can't you can't be out it, but you need
Speaker 1: to go over here. Remember at the games that you know,
Speaker 1: they said, if you go and you and you you
Speaker 1: you hit your grades in school and you hit these
Speaker 1: numbers on the court, we're gonna we're gonna set you up.
Speaker 1: It's a popular maximum trunks. They got polos, Jordan's and everything,
Speaker 1: and they're waiting on me right and and it kept
Speaker 1: me motivated to do the right thing right because I
Speaker 1: know I felt the love and support. Um. And it
Speaker 1: definitely took a community to raise me. My mother did
Speaker 1: a phenomenal job. But it's just certain things that a
Speaker 1: mother can't do much right by herself. Um. And so
Speaker 1: you know, the city has been just just been phenomenal
Speaker 1: to me. Man. And Um, you know, I gotta say
Speaker 1: this to um. Some of my old gs, Bernard Pig,
Speaker 1: Richard Um, all those guys, Junior Lor poo a, raoms,
Speaker 1: guys that really had hands in on my development. Still,
Speaker 1: when did you find the game of basketball? Man? I
Speaker 1: got I must have. I don't know about you. I
Speaker 1: didn't really start playing it to my freshman year. I
Speaker 1: was like six to you know, my freshman year I
Speaker 1: went from like six to to six eleven and three months. Damn,
Speaker 1: what were the knees feeling like I had to be braced?
Speaker 1: Four is Gum saying, yeah, real story, get slaughter. All
Speaker 1: that kicking the worst, wasn't it? At one time, man,
Speaker 1: I was playing football and then I grew to six,
Speaker 1: six ten, six eleven, and my my junior varsity coaches
Speaker 1: like brot, listen, You're don't need to make a career change.
Speaker 1: And I was like okay, and uh shout out to
Speaker 1: Louis dreer Um, who was really the architect. Remember having
Speaker 1: to take dance classes one two out every practice holding
Speaker 1: his hand right one to one to Um. He really
Speaker 1: taught me a lot, and the coach, George Glynn really
Speaker 1: kind of put it over the top with Um becoming
Speaker 1: a true father figure that had rules and regulations to
Speaker 1: how we do that, do the ship every day. I
Speaker 1: grew six inches from freshman year of the tank grave
Speaker 1: y'all six ft. Going into my abhomore year, I walked
Speaker 1: in at six six and it was similar, but this
Speaker 1: was trials. I was out there running routes for football
Speaker 1: season ain't started yet and I'm trying to try out
Speaker 1: and go play football as a receiver. And during probably
Speaker 1: my second round, I seen my coach and my mom
Speaker 1: and my uncle walking towards the field. You know, my
Speaker 1: mind back then, I'm thinking somebody got killed in my family,
Speaker 1: something bad that happened. They are take the cleats off,
Speaker 1: all that ship off, you ain't doing that. You got
Speaker 1: you you don't see what you're going to basketball, but
Speaker 1: we see it. I'm like, man, I can do both.
Speaker 1: I'm diance hat as I can do both. Now I
Speaker 1: come to your ass out. So that was similar to me.
Speaker 1: They saw something to me that out of saying myself
Speaker 1: at that time, he was probably scared to get hit anyway, Huh.
Speaker 1: He would have been scared to get hit, and I was,
Speaker 1: I was the cleanest out there, and I think they
Speaker 1: didn't like that. You know, I was gonna be clean, fresh, clean,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. Do yeah, you know, don'pe
Speaker 1: boing back then every time? Who did you mind your game? After?
Speaker 1: And I don't know, man, I'm you know, honestly, um
Speaker 1: Kim Elijah was probably my favorite the dream I remember first.
Speaker 1: I remember my first first time checking him. Brad was
Speaker 1: I was trying to hold on for dear life right
Speaker 1: though he was, he was the strongest, most agile. I'm
Speaker 1: not even sure why when people talk about greatest centers ever,
Speaker 1: his name does not pop up. He could arguably beating
Speaker 1: number one, arguably be number one on both sides of
Speaker 1: the court. He dominated right the all time leading shot
Speaker 1: blocker in the business. Footwork was impeccable. I know why
Speaker 1: because he was Muslim us and you're gonna hear about
Speaker 1: it and the doctor's coming out about him. Um. They
Speaker 1: told him that he had a conversation with with David
Speaker 1: Stern and if you notice his name wasn't do up Black.
Speaker 1: We don't talk like. We don't hear much now, even
Speaker 1: after he won the championships, and they don't talk about
Speaker 1: it when they talk about the Hall of Fame players
Speaker 1: because he had a riff with David Stern about David
Speaker 1: Stern told me, if he publicized that as much as
Speaker 1: he did, that he wouldn't get the look that he
Speaker 1: was supposed to get it. And that's why you never
Speaker 1: hear about it. It's crazy. He used to get busy.
Speaker 1: He's the fast all the time. He won two championships faster,
Speaker 1: that's crazy. Huh. What what stands out to you? Obviously
Speaker 1: you get a late start, but once you get going,
Speaker 1: you know this is what you're supposed to be doing. What? What? What?
Speaker 1: What do you remember the most about your high school
Speaker 1: playing days? He was the biggest person in our class
Speaker 1: and thought he was on steroids or some ship. Tim
Speaker 1: like I remember saying Leicester earl. I remember seeing those
Speaker 1: they weren't bigger than you not. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: I was. I was stilling thought. But but I remember
Speaker 1: I remember seeing Tim Thomas and I was like because
Speaker 1: I heard a lot about him, and I was like, damn,
Speaker 1: this my like to thirty and guards playing like a
Speaker 1: guarden garden. But you wouldn't understand like back then we
Speaker 1: didn't know about the motherfucker too. We actually saw them
Speaker 1: face to face like you would hear or you might
Speaker 1: be able to read about them in a little magazine,
Speaker 1: but I wasn't reading, Like you didn't know about who
Speaker 1: you was going up against until he was warming up
Speaker 1: or seeing him at the tournament. Yeah. We actually the
Speaker 1: first time I sold him, um was that a B
Speaker 1: C D. And it was like I was like, damn,
Speaker 1: he he is advertised, he can go. And that was
Speaker 1: I think my real first AU experience was probably going
Speaker 1: to Nike All America. I wasn't necessary games. It was
Speaker 1: the camps where I remember Gelnnie McCoy was there. Um
Speaker 1: it was Steph Garnett and I was like, holy just
Speaker 1: the class before us. That was like damn, Like I
Speaker 1: ain't never Bro. I'd never been outside of my city
Speaker 1: at that point, so it's in Chicago. I'm like, damn, bro,
Speaker 1: I need to I need to go get my ship
Speaker 1: together like these boys can play. That was like the
Speaker 1: first time I knew that I had to put in
Speaker 1: some work because there was some real dogs, like were
Speaker 1: we from you know, we're killing in our neighborhoods. Then
Speaker 1: that's how measurements stick, right, right? Did you get outside
Speaker 1: of your neighborhood and you realize that you damn you,
Speaker 1: you really can't compete now unless you go put in
Speaker 1: some work. And so seeing those boys really inspired me.
Speaker 1: Man And and that was kind of like the kicker
Speaker 1: for me when it came to a U. Who so
Speaker 1: who who is? I mean, obviously I know your draft class,
Speaker 1: but who are some of that the top cats? And
Speaker 1: during AU during that run for you, could you guys
Speaker 1: are the same year right fails, Cold Cold Baby, Shanne
Speaker 1: Cotton Shake Cotton, Baron, Davis, Baron Dame was how that too,
Speaker 1: but he was younger than us. Um Corey Benjamin for
Speaker 1: Benjamin Why, I went for Walton Richard Richard Hamilton's head colder,
Speaker 1: but Ronnie at the top was him Ronnie Fields, Kobe
Speaker 1: and Tim Toomer maybe too. My baby is at the top.
Speaker 1: Felipe Lopez older, he was the show, older than everybody
Speaker 1: now he was he was ninety five, if I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1: So what went into your decision, um to let you
Speaker 1: know you were ready to make the job, skip college
Speaker 1: and make that job to the pro Honestly, I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I knew I wasn't physically ready. I
Speaker 1: went to jail um my my senior year on a
Speaker 1: statutory rate um charge um possible charge at the time,
Speaker 1: I didn't know, which I think is important, especially for
Speaker 1: the youth to understand this is that every state has
Speaker 1: a legal age limit to have consensual consensual sex. Right now,
Speaker 1: this girl I had been with for two years, my girlfriend, girl,
Speaker 1: it's my girl girl right she was chillied on the
Speaker 1: team and everything. I had not met her, pops crazy
Speaker 1: thinking two years, I met mom, been over the house,
Speaker 1: um sisters everything known. Story short. He comes home, I'm
Speaker 1: over at the house, didn't catch us doing anything, just
Speaker 1: caught me in the room. He hits her. I hit him. Uh,
Speaker 1: stayed with the girl to the police game. He foul
Speaker 1: um a charge of me and it became one of
Speaker 1: those situations where we was trying to blow that ship up,
Speaker 1: especially be in the South Carolina. And if you got
Speaker 1: to know the history, like the Confederate flag was just
Speaker 1: recently taken off the stay house, right, that was a
Speaker 1: real thing. Um, where you grew up not understanding that
Speaker 1: you can even date outside of your race, Like I
Speaker 1: didn't even know I could. It was even cool until
Speaker 1: ninety s when I got drafted to do so. Right.
Speaker 1: And so if you living you're living in that ronment,
Speaker 1: you're going through a situation where now, um, at the time,
Speaker 1: I was number one player in the country, rights, I'm
Speaker 1: in I'm in jail, and they're talking about giving me
Speaker 1: ten years, right, and so you know, I go through
Speaker 1: that whole process get reinstated. I finally get reinstated, um,
Speaker 1: hyper extend. I need the first game back with all Patino,
Speaker 1: NBA scouts, everything, um, and the Patino had a meeting
Speaker 1: with us, me and my mom in my house. He said, look,
Speaker 1: we love to have you, we canna be good with
Speaker 1: you without you, but you probably go bro. Where was
Speaker 1: he at at that time, Kentucky though, right, And so
Speaker 1: that was like the moment where I knew, he said, Look,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, I know you're probably gonna listed
Speaker 1: between tenth and seventeen. You're never gonna fall beyond seventeen.
Speaker 1: At that point, I was so worn out, bro, And
Speaker 1: I've seen opportunities starting to drift a little bit. Um
Speaker 1: and you know, the whole idea of going to jail
Speaker 1: and being heard and now people starting to question, you know,
Speaker 1: should I even be a pro? Said let me go,
Speaker 1: Let me go and make this money. I knew that
Speaker 1: my determination and my mindset was built for physically. I
Speaker 1: knew I wasn't I was only like two and a
Speaker 1: seventeen pounds or something like that. Um, But that was
Speaker 1: that was that was a decided factor. To be honest.
Speaker 1: I got to ask you one question, though, I shouldn't
Speaker 1: want a VP, right McDonald's. I just wanted all the
Speaker 1: top players, you know, I just want to have from
Speaker 1: on top. You know, I started five. I think I
Speaker 1: think we had one of the best starting five Evan
Speaker 1: McDonald's game history, Me and you, cold, Tim and Tim Thomas.
Speaker 1: We couldn't added real Hampton, power and better, but Holloway
Speaker 1: with me and you, she Holloway, Kobe and Tim Thomas.
Speaker 1: But you remember they didn't start me because remember I
Speaker 1: was in the hospital the whole week, right right, what's
Speaker 1: what's the what's the big fella? Jason Carya not went
Speaker 1: to North Carolina Hathaway, Russian by Sale after them all. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he had to play the game to play the game. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was the dope. It's projected dope start. I didn't
Speaker 1: start because I didn't make any thing with the one
Speaker 1: practice and like the altitudo was too much. Yeah. Now,
Speaker 1: obviously did you briefly dabbled if you thought about college,
Speaker 1: who were something that the schools you thought about it was?
Speaker 1: It was dound to UM, Kentucky, Maryland, Maryland was closely used.
Speaker 1: Joe Smith. He was recruiting me to go to Maryland,
Speaker 1: and that was one of my favorite players in college.
Speaker 1: Shut up. He was a mom'star Um South Carolina where
Speaker 1: I'm from. Clemson obviously been in South Carolina in Ohio state, UM.
Speaker 1: But if I don't went to school, it would have
Speaker 1: been to Kentucky because Kentucky had the pedigree to win
Speaker 1: a national championships and putting players in the pros. He
Speaker 1: decided to make the jump. You the seventeen pick for
Speaker 1: the Portland Trail players. How come you didn't go to
Speaker 1: the draft? Honestly, man, Um, you know back then when
Speaker 1: you made the decision to go pro, you forfeited your
Speaker 1: cole eligibility completely. So if I don't get drafted, then
Speaker 1: I gotta go find a job, right. And so the
Speaker 1: nervousness coming off all the stuff that I went through
Speaker 1: my senior year, I was just like, bro, I need
Speaker 1: to be I need to be home. I need to
Speaker 1: be around people that that no mean that understand me,
Speaker 1: you have that support me. And so I just decided
Speaker 1: to stay and get a ballroom. Um. Shout out to
Speaker 1: r and tell him who stood who stood beside me
Speaker 1: the entire time? Who kept me calm? I knew back
Speaker 1: then as a seventeen year I wasn't the easiest person
Speaker 1: to keep calm, you know back then, But he became
Speaker 1: like a pop to me. Man, So Um, you know
Speaker 1: he understand how much he means to me and in
Speaker 1: my entire career. I mean talking about that draft, that's
Speaker 1: one of arguably the best draft classes, on one of
Speaker 1: them ever. Uh. Kobe iverson Ray Island, stuff on mar Burt,
Speaker 1: Steve Nash, Marcus can be uh Antoine Walker, M sharif
Speaker 1: A do rahim yourself. Um, so that experience from high school,
Speaker 1: skipping college, jumping to the pros but then back and
Speaker 1: then people don't understand like there was real o g
Speaker 1: s and real grown men back in the league back
Speaker 1: in the day, like the real Vets. So what was
Speaker 1: your experience like transitioning? Like you said, you may not
Speaker 1: have been ready physically, you made the jump, you made it.
Speaker 1: What was it like early on in your career because
Speaker 1: you didn't get a chance to really play early on
Speaker 1: and experience though? Yeah, man, uh, the late great Cliff
Speaker 1: Robinson to rest in peace. Gary Trent, I mean Gary
Speaker 1: Trent was the first one. He came and got me
Speaker 1: from the airport. Um taught me a lot of things.
Speaker 1: Um she obviously Sabonis and the and the team's kind
Speaker 1: of change, you know year over year, Debatlers Strom, Scottie Pippen,
Speaker 1: I mean just kept going. Um. I was able to
Speaker 1: take a lot of different ingredients from a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of players with this Kenny Anderson, dam Sodermar Gray, Anthony,
Speaker 1: Brian Grant, Um bondsy Wells and they see all Man
Speaker 1: j R. Roder. Um, it just kept going um on
Speaker 1: and on, and it was really honestly for me, it
Speaker 1: was the best place for me because it was a
Speaker 1: one sports town city. But I didn't have the pressure
Speaker 1: of a big city, right. They grew me as if
Speaker 1: as if it was college, one on one, right, and
Speaker 1: so every year I was able to kind of grow
Speaker 1: and mature a little bit more. I remember Rick carl
Speaker 1: I remember him coming to my house. People don't know
Speaker 1: about this, but I was so salty because Gardnett and
Speaker 1: Cole was getting an opportunity and I wasn't. And back
Speaker 1: then that was when high school to the pros just started.
Speaker 1: So the micro scope was like, you know, bearing down
Speaker 1: on me. And you know people are say, oh, well
Speaker 1: he's a bus you know, he couldn't not knowing that
Speaker 1: I just wasn't getting the opportunity. And remember Rick carl
Speaker 1: Out coming to my house and I wouldn't because I
Speaker 1: stopped going to the games. This is your first year.
Speaker 1: So I was like, you know what, I ain't playing,
Speaker 1: I ain't coming, ain't coming. So I remember talking to
Speaker 1: him out here coming house. I put the chain on
Speaker 1: the door and talked to him through this. He was
Speaker 1: assistant coach. Carlson was the head coach. Um, But he
Speaker 1: was the one that kind of walked me through this thing, man,
Speaker 1: and became the guy that was just assigned to me
Speaker 1: to make sure that I, you know, that I made
Speaker 1: the right moves and man, and when I look back
Speaker 1: at this now, you know, it wasn't the transition wasn't
Speaker 1: as tough physically as it was mentally. Absolutely, what was it?
Speaker 1: What was the turning point? When did you start getting
Speaker 1: some time on the court with season? Was that for you? Man?
Speaker 1: I went for I went four years of the roller
Speaker 1: coaster up and down, But when I knew my third
Speaker 1: year probably was when I knew because I started out
Speaker 1: playing guys that were playing in front of me like
Speaker 1: I was piste off all the time because at the
Speaker 1: time Mike Dunleavy was making things incredibly hard for me. Right,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm always there before there after you know,
Speaker 1: I ain't played in the first two quarters. Put me
Speaker 1: in the game in the third quarter for two minutes,
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, right, and so um that just pissed
Speaker 1: me off and I just could to work harder. I
Speaker 1: knew planning against sheet in them every single day in practice.
Speaker 1: That's back then when we had to practice too but
Speaker 1: it was the real. It was the real, you know.
Speaker 1: It wasn't no rest days, wasn't none of that stuff.
Speaker 1: It was like he was practicing when you wasn't playing.
Speaker 1: And it prepared me right away. And I knew, you know,
Speaker 1: as going into my fourth year um which is old
Speaker 1: Banana and the tail Pipe, I was a free agent
Speaker 1: and decided to not to take a starting role either
Speaker 1: with Orlando or Chicago and went back to Portland's. We
Speaker 1: had just lost in the conference finals against the Lakers.
Speaker 1: I said, well, we should we got a chance to
Speaker 1: win it all. I'm gonna go back and then contribute
Speaker 1: and it just didn't work out. That work out. Talk
Speaker 1: to us about that experience with the Lakers of two
Speaker 1: thousand Lakers come down the game seven? What was that series? Like? Man, listen,
Speaker 1: I probably cried maybe twenty times in my life. Bro
Speaker 1: had some big shots for this is your first real
Speaker 1: taste of the NBA playoffs, right, so you made the
Speaker 1: playoffs every year, but we're in the conference for so
Speaker 1: that was the That was the I went back for
Speaker 1: that reason and we were up fifth I think fifteen,
Speaker 1: and like the stable center emptying out me and Bonds
Speaker 1: on the bench, talking about when we're about to do
Speaker 1: with you know, without with our bonus are NBA Finals
Speaker 1: bonus checks and all this stuff, and then I think
Speaker 1: Brian Shaw banked in fucking three and it was started
Speaker 1: r started to run Bro And it was just to me,
Speaker 1: it was just mismanagement of the team. Right, you play
Speaker 1: these you play the guys through the process of this run,
Speaker 1: and they make this run to you sub them right
Speaker 1: with guys that ain't been playing right. And so it's
Speaker 1: just one of those things where, um, A lot of
Speaker 1: things went into us losing that game, but that was
Speaker 1: the one that I was. I was remember sitting on
Speaker 1: the bench. I told Bonds, I said, brother, this is it.
Speaker 1: I ain't coming back, tears in my eyes, everything said.
Speaker 1: But I'm going somewhere else, I said, because you know
Speaker 1: this time is up. But that was the one that
Speaker 1: really hurt us because that team was probably on paper,
Speaker 1: the most talented team in the league. Bright We had
Speaker 1: Steve Smith, Scottie Pippen, Brian Grant, she Wallace, a bonus
Speaker 1: BONDSI you me, uh, Damon Sodemer Uh he's super DP.
Speaker 1: It's no way in here. We shouldn't won the championship.
Speaker 1: One of the best teams never to win it. What
Speaker 1: was that fourth quarter? Like the one that got away
Speaker 1: from the Avacota, Bro, one of the twenty times that
Speaker 1: I've cried in my life, I tell you, I remember.
Speaker 1: I remember sitting on the bench literally tears coming out
Speaker 1: of my eyes because you put so much into it, Um,
Speaker 1: And as a young player, you know you I knew
Speaker 1: that these opportunities don't come around. You know, I'm just
Speaker 1: hearing all the O g s talk about it and
Speaker 1: have an opportunity to to ship to play in the
Speaker 1: NBA finals, Bro, like you grew up watching that, the Jordan's,
Speaker 1: the you know, the Magics, the Isaiah Thomas says, the
Speaker 1: lad Birds, And it was just it was it was
Speaker 1: a hard pill to swallow. But the good part about
Speaker 1: it helped me understand what it took to be a
Speaker 1: pro and to have the opportunity to get there. I mean,
Speaker 1: looking back on it now, how dynamic were Kobe and
Speaker 1: Shock And that was good dal On on the two
Speaker 1: shots to hit at the answer, that was great defense
Speaker 1: to He's still draining, man, you know obviously Kobe, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you'll know how we feel about him. Um,
Speaker 1: He's one of the greatest. I think, to me, he's
Speaker 1: more closer to Mic than anybody everybody's and he is
Speaker 1: he is he was as a he had a dog
Speaker 1: mentality that I was about winning, winning, winning, right, Shock.
Speaker 1: People don't realize how big Shock is, Bro. I mean
Speaker 1: like it's like he was playing with like a little
Speaker 1: tips ball all the time in his hand because he
Speaker 1: was so big. But he he just changed the game, Bro,
Speaker 1: And many times the league didn't know how to officiate
Speaker 1: shot right. I mean, he was just that, he was
Speaker 1: that agile he was. I don't know if we ever
Speaker 1: see a specimen of a player like that ever again
Speaker 1: a lot, because the game has changed so much and
Speaker 1: he's incredible. Summer of two thousand, You're traded to Indiana
Speaker 1: for Dale Davis kind of understanding that the business side
Speaker 1: of it, what was that like for you? And I
Speaker 1: remember I remember going into uh the Champs downtown and
Speaker 1: I'm talking about these damn people were bad because they
Speaker 1: just came out from finals appearance and they traded you know, Dale,
Speaker 1: which is a fan favorite, for basically an unknown And
Speaker 1: so I was challenging for me to hear people talk
Speaker 1: about that in a in a bitter way, right um,
Speaker 1: and obviously how people felt about Reggie and him winning
Speaker 1: the championship, it was it was difficult, But Reggie mille
Speaker 1: Is is one of my favorite teammates of all time
Speaker 1: because he is he's he's a winner, right, He's a
Speaker 1: winner in every aspect of the word. And he could
Speaker 1: have easily debt at that trade easily trade for him,
Speaker 1: trade me, He's like nah, bringing the young boy. I
Speaker 1: remember remember having the conversation. He said, I'm gonna let
Speaker 1: you be whatever you want to be as long as
Speaker 1: you worked for He did the same for me. Reggie
Speaker 1: did the same for me. Reggie is unbelievable, bro. He
Speaker 1: meant so much too to me in my career. And
Speaker 1: that's why that that brawl situation, I probably wanted to
Speaker 1: win it more for him than it was for myself.
Speaker 1: Right well, I think I think we all did because,
Speaker 1: like it, just a touch on what he said. They
Speaker 1: brought me in the next year, the year Reggie was retiring,
Speaker 1: and Reggie was basically stamping me as the person to
Speaker 1: fill in when he needs you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: So that year was especial for all of us, for Reggie,
Speaker 1: you know what, I mean, because we knew we had
Speaker 1: the team, you know what I mean, and to not
Speaker 1: do it wasn't It was a letdown. Even though we
Speaker 1: came back and still far in the playoffs. It was
Speaker 1: let down for all of us because we wanted to
Speaker 1: do it so bad. For Reggie, I mean, it was
Speaker 1: crazy too that Reggie probably that situation was so bad
Speaker 1: that it forced him to retire. Reggie had probably two
Speaker 1: more years and really just a lot on that mental side.
Speaker 1: So you're coming into Antiana, are you you get the
Speaker 1: starting role or how does that? How does that work out?
Speaker 1: I came in right away, started one, most improved right away.
Speaker 1: I was fully prepared by all the work. Um an
Speaker 1: education I took from all the players in Portland. Um
Speaker 1: so I was. I was like, with it ain't nobody
Speaker 1: I'm gonna see in front of me. That's been the
Speaker 1: ones that I've been playing practice against every day in practice,
Speaker 1: reminding people what the power forward game was, liking who
Speaker 1: was around back then? This is Duncan, kg Webber, Rashid,
Speaker 1: a young Dirk, a young you. That's fact when power
Speaker 1: forwards were a pivotal part of a team. Man. I remember,
Speaker 1: you know, like every night it was something like I
Speaker 1: remember every time I thought about like what I needed
Speaker 1: to eat because I got KG and I'm coming in town.
Speaker 1: I got dirt, I got she see what sea where
Speaker 1: it was a monster. Um, people don't understand how good
Speaker 1: see where Man it was a killer. He was a killer, bro,
Speaker 1: and he was and he had everything man and um.
Speaker 1: It forced you to be the best version of yourself
Speaker 1: almost every night. And even like scenarios where I mean
Speaker 1: back then it was a grind. I mean, bro, you
Speaker 1: was like that post was a grind. I mean Ben
Speaker 1: Wallace and those guys, I mean theo Radlof and those guys,
Speaker 1: I mean her Oak was still in the league. But
Speaker 1: the game went through the post. Back then to the post.
Speaker 1: It had to test the post for any outside shots
Speaker 1: going up inside out with a little back brace. I
Speaker 1: had like a little like still plate that's to put
Speaker 1: in the people always complain about it because I always
Speaker 1: like to spend a ball phone saying like there's like
Speaker 1: that was us old back plate back there. But the
Speaker 1: game was different bright it was. It was there was
Speaker 1: a brind and I think the competitive nature where um
Speaker 1: kind of like the Pistons Pacer scenario. People really funk
Speaker 1: with each other, but on the court it was either
Speaker 1: you or me. It's a different league, different league, Bro,
Speaker 1: what no eight man call me, call me hi, I'm
Speaker 1: meeting none of that. We all in the court. So
Speaker 1: what was it like coming into that situation starting most
Speaker 1: improved player? You got a starting to put the ingredients together,
Speaker 1: you know, after them going to the finals the year
Speaker 1: before the starting not not starting over, but trying to
Speaker 1: regain that. What was it like building that team back
Speaker 1: up what they It started with Isaiah Thomas. Um. I
Speaker 1: gotta shout him out to Zeke meant so much to
Speaker 1: me man and miss Thomas for all the meals that
Speaker 1: she cooked at our house. Um. He just always have
Speaker 1: us over talking about like history. Um. So he started
Speaker 1: the confidence in myself out Harrington, Jonathan Vendor, Jeff Foster, Um,
Speaker 1: and then Rick Carlisle came in and was able to
Speaker 1: put the ice in on the cake when we knew
Speaker 1: that we were ready to compete. And then obviously getting
Speaker 1: Jack um Ron Um Brad Miller. That was one of
Speaker 1: the worst things that the Pacers ever did was trade
Speaker 1: Brad Miller. Um. That was like my ace down there. Um,
Speaker 1: and we just knew Bro like you know, we hadn't
Speaker 1: been through it. Jack hadn't already won the championship with
Speaker 1: San Antonio. He knew exactly what it was. Well, people
Speaker 1: don't realize we had a different level of grit. Yes,
Speaker 1: could be taught. It was like, bro, we had all
Speaker 1: been through something. Oh man it was and it was
Speaker 1: so funny man that, um, we were so tight. I remember,
Speaker 1: I remember, I gotta tell the story. Jack. I remember
Speaker 1: you got into it at the at the strip club.
Speaker 1: And so like I get a call from my nanny.
Speaker 1: It's like with two or three o'clock in the molock
Speaker 1: in the morning, like she's like, Jack dead. I said,
Speaker 1: what what you mean? It's like Jackson, he's dead. That's
Speaker 1: like he's at the hospital. So I'm a guy who
Speaker 1: told me what hospital was. So I rushed to the hospital. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: you met this. No no, you're skipping the whole part
Speaker 1: at the gas station. We met at the gas station
Speaker 1: right up the street from the club. First. The reason
Speaker 1: why I went to the hospital be remember I'm ready
Speaker 1: to can I'm ready to hurt somebody out of it.
Speaker 1: I didn't got back on and shake back. My lips
Speaker 1: are torn, teeth going everything I'm mad as him. Jam.
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, we gotta find out way they go
Speaker 1: Jackson jack I'm going I'm with all that. Bro, Listen,
Speaker 1: you got to go to the hospital. Because he was
Speaker 1: looking at my mom to my team was gone. He's like,
Speaker 1: and that's why I went to the hospital. As soon
Speaker 1: as you're saying that, my sides ends and started her
Speaker 1: because I all everything came down and I realized, and
Speaker 1: here the reason why I went to the hospital. You
Speaker 1: don't remember that. You came to the gas station, bro,
Speaker 1: like a couple of blocks up and you told me, like, no, bro,
Speaker 1: you have to go to the hospital. Bro. Listen, his
Speaker 1: face didn't even look real, bro, Like I remember seeing him.
Speaker 1: I don't know if remember this. I first walked up,
Speaker 1: I just stopped. Remember I remember where I walked up,
Speaker 1: and so I thought it was in the hospital, but
Speaker 1: I guess it was at the gas station. And I
Speaker 1: looked in his face as pauls we gotta go get
Speaker 1: I said, like this your face, bro, His lips were
Speaker 1: so big, bro, And it was like one of those
Speaker 1: situations where like I knew he knew I was down
Speaker 1: for him, like whatever, but they stayed right there. I
Speaker 1: have to have plastic surgery on my lips. My lips
Speaker 1: were so swollen that they couldn't know them because my
Speaker 1: lip was so big, and they would put down station,
Speaker 1: they would have burst him real called loud my wife
Speaker 1: at the town. They all stood right there and watched
Speaker 1: me have plastic surgery Bro for two hours. It was
Speaker 1: so bad, like almost forgot that I was a professional athlete,
Speaker 1: like we wanted to actually remember. I said, but first,
Speaker 1: we're gonna need to take you to the hospital. First,
Speaker 1: you're gonna kill everybody. It was hot dog. Everybody was mad,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. But how it went down
Speaker 1: because I had nothing to do it. It was me
Speaker 1: again helping out one of my teammates, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, and me getting caught caught up, caught up
Speaker 1: in it. But to what he's saying, like they really
Speaker 1: wrote for me, Bro, because like I said, they didn't
Speaker 1: have to come to the hospital, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: They stood there with me the whole time, and to
Speaker 1: a center and to the surgeon time. And I remember
Speaker 1: Bro when when he when he did the last stitch,
Speaker 1: because I was holding Rick call out hand and n
Speaker 1: at the hand the whole time squeezing because I had
Speaker 1: to fight the paint. He cut the last stitch and
Speaker 1: he put his hand on my chance and say I'm done.
Speaker 1: I told him, I say, and I went straight to sleep.
Speaker 1: I slept through X rays. I don't remember nothing. That
Speaker 1: that's to being home. That that that's when the night
Speaker 1: baron called me. And that's a whole another story. But lucky,
Speaker 1: I gave you that pretty boy myth to get your
Speaker 1: your looks. Yeah, I hit that every day year, saying
Speaker 1: but if you come closer to my lips and I
Speaker 1: actually you would be like, man ain't goddamn. I don't
Speaker 1: know how you survived that. Before we go on, you
Speaker 1: mentioned the name that I don't think people understand how
Speaker 1: good he was too because he was young. How good
Speaker 1: with Jonathan Bender? We stayed right by each other, so
Speaker 1: we talked about this all the time. John de Bender,
Speaker 1: he was set for talk. Can you compare him to
Speaker 1: anybody's game or what there was no one like him?
Speaker 1: How would you compare Jonathan to I would say he
Speaker 1: was a guard version of stroke mouth swift with handles
Speaker 1: and a three point ball and all that. We just say.
Speaker 1: I think athleticism. Yeah, but his game was significantly different
Speaker 1: because he can handle That's what I'm saying, shoot threes
Speaker 1: and all that that he can shoot it from deep.
Speaker 1: You know, he just there's a career cut short because
Speaker 1: his knee. This is kind of auth thing. He's playing
Speaker 1: too many games and came in beat up. But I mean,
Speaker 1: that kid, if he had an opportunity, if it's this time,
Speaker 1: because he was a stretch four before stretch man, he
Speaker 1: wasn't even a stretch four though he wouldn't practice for
Speaker 1: thirty days. Hen come to practice one day and do
Speaker 1: something crazy and facts everybody like that's when he went practicing.
Speaker 1: All that. Keep in mind, heredcome practice one day and
Speaker 1: don't go somebody to do something crazy. Brother, Like, bro,
Speaker 1: this motherfucking healthy, it's over because he played the two three.
Speaker 1: He never he never played the four and went to
Speaker 1: the forest. We stayed because I stayed right across the
Speaker 1: state from jail, stayed around corners. We all stayed close
Speaker 1: to each other. But Jonathan Bender dog was so special.
Speaker 1: But as one player, if he could have stayed healthy, Bro,
Speaker 1: what if I just think he was on the team
Speaker 1: that we had just matter we had him in the
Speaker 1: lineup right, That's what I'm saying. So, oh four, you
Speaker 1: guys reached the conference finals against Detroit. Uh talked to
Speaker 1: us about that series. That was jailball man. It was.
Speaker 1: It was probably one of the most physical series I've
Speaker 1: ever been involved with. Right, you knew what you were
Speaker 1: getting from the Pistons, right, right, So much respect for
Speaker 1: those guys. She been wiless, ripped chumps, Tayshawn Uh, Larry Brown, Um,
Speaker 1: they were just you know, we knew that it was
Speaker 1: the marginal air was was this was this slim and
Speaker 1: and you know it's funny it didn't show up in
Speaker 1: the day. I actually got taken out of the dog
Speaker 1: being talked about the reason that they were able to
Speaker 1: beat us because they were They were tight. They were
Speaker 1: more tight than we were, right, And so when you
Speaker 1: have a divide between me and Ron sometimes Jack, you
Speaker 1: know mad with Ron or you know mal jamaal. You know,
Speaker 1: it was a lot of different things elements going on.
Speaker 1: We were able to come and get the collectively as
Speaker 1: a team Indiana because we loved playing basketball, right, but
Speaker 1: to win it all I love playing basketball, ain't gonna
Speaker 1: ain't gonna do it. And so you know, we we
Speaker 1: ran up on a Pistons team um that was a
Speaker 1: little bit more uh together, connected, didn't have as much
Speaker 1: talent that we had. They had a out of talent um,
Speaker 1: but they were just were a lot more connected than
Speaker 1: were when you tried. You tried that the year because
Speaker 1: that was the year before I got there, wheny'all lost
Speaker 1: to them in the in the East Conference finals. But
Speaker 1: when the year I come, when the year I came,
Speaker 1: next year, you made it a point. You tried your
Speaker 1: best to keep everybody together, going out to eat and
Speaker 1: doing stuff wrong. Was never around, but you tried. But
Speaker 1: as a quarter team, we were all together, you know,
Speaker 1: so we went everywhere together. But we did a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you know, our wives, girls, all
Speaker 1: that stuff. We you know, those are the things that
Speaker 1: I started to kind of pick up little things right
Speaker 1: that I noticed the year before that. You know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if we thought that we were good enough
Speaker 1: to win. We knew we were talented. We looked up
Speaker 1: and we had the best record in the league, and
Speaker 1: when the conference finals and it's like, damn, what we're here,
Speaker 1: and then when they beat us, you know, it was
Speaker 1: mistakes that we made, right, all of us. We made
Speaker 1: mistakes and then coming into the next year and we
Speaker 1: got Jack, we was like, should we gonna come, We're
Speaker 1: gonna come back to camp early. Time to go. It's
Speaker 1: time to go. And you know, that's the most disappointed
Speaker 1: because we probably should have one made to the championship. So, Jack,
Speaker 1: what's it like for you? Not really understanding what you
Speaker 1: were walking into, but ready to go. You know, the
Speaker 1: team that's coming off the conference finals, you could you're
Speaker 1: a key piece coming in that next year. What to
Speaker 1: like for you? It was difficult because I didn't understand
Speaker 1: the magnitude of robbery with with them in Detroit. You
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. I knew that I knew Jail,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. And like I said, the
Speaker 1: first day that he embraced me, came to me, made
Speaker 1: me feel comfortable and and Reggie speaking U from itself,
Speaker 1: I was already comfortably. I knew a lot of people there,
Speaker 1: but I did not know the magnitude of the beef
Speaker 1: with with the Pistons. But I felt as soon as
Speaker 1: we walked in the arena the day of Braul happened,
Speaker 1: I felt that you like you can feel attention in there,
Speaker 1: But I felt the same way they felt, you know,
Speaker 1: me going to this team that's a player away. You
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, piece, And I knew I was
Speaker 1: gonna be a big piece. And like we fo folks
Speaker 1: on championship, you know what I'm saying. The um And
Speaker 1: Mike Brown was my coach of San Antonio won the championship,
Speaker 1: so he was assistant coached there at the time. So
Speaker 1: I my Mond was taking championship the whole time. Just
Speaker 1: play my point and do what I can. I know
Speaker 1: it's in a serious conversation, but any funny practice stories
Speaker 1: with yourself, Ron with you many remember Danny Granger and
Speaker 1: then uh darn, I remember, like Ron is gonna get
Speaker 1: he leaving his house in the uniform. It's on the dock.
Speaker 1: But I remember we we're were on, We're on it.
Speaker 1: He getting mad, everybody getting mad. Like Jamal Tenson. He
Speaker 1: takes nothing serious. He's laughing at everything. Right, So he's
Speaker 1: about to start practice, bringing in one, two, three two
Speaker 1: doors about open Ron coming there with some Air Force
Speaker 1: ones on with some church docks with his uniform already on.
Speaker 1: And when I say he dominates practice, bro dominated practice.
Speaker 1: And that's not something needs to do. Not that warming
Speaker 1: up just short right for practice time in his practice uniform.
Speaker 1: He did stuff like that a lot. But I'm sure
Speaker 1: that's a part of the frustration because when he's locked in,
Speaker 1: you see his greatness and how integral he could be too.
Speaker 1: When the Champions, he was just so much stronger and
Speaker 1: bigger than any other player that's gonna play at this position. Um,
Speaker 1: he I'm not sure if he knew how good he was,
Speaker 1: like he he clearly and to this very moment, is
Speaker 1: the hardest working player I've ever been around now far,
Speaker 1: and it's not even close. He used to get on
Speaker 1: after the game. He used to get on. He'll play
Speaker 1: thirty eight party minutes. He's gonna get on the treadmill
Speaker 1: for another thirty after games. Yeah, he going like that.
Speaker 1: Basketball was his. To me, I felt like it was
Speaker 1: a safe place, right and he people that was playing
Speaker 1: against him was scared of him. Terrified bro Like we
Speaker 1: like we came around you guard him like we knew
Speaker 1: with Ron over that garden him and then we got Jack,
Speaker 1: so we had a dynamic defensively that it was just hard.
Speaker 1: It was anywhere at him at the four. And Jeff
Speaker 1: Foster was a great defense too. He was shutting it down.
Speaker 1: You get past me and are you gotta do? And
Speaker 1: that's back where you would lay motherfucker's down for a
Speaker 1: little bit, comes of the whole and knock them down
Speaker 1: and not get kicked out the game and to spend
Speaker 1: it for a week. So, uh, how me and Jack
Speaker 1: come into contact is in oh seven you you spoke
Speaker 1: on trying to hold things together. Letus hold it together.
Speaker 1: We got enough talent, We got what it takes. Pieces
Speaker 1: start falling off here and there, Jack and Al come
Speaker 1: to Golden State. You guys get done leaving Murphy And
Speaker 1: what was that like to you? Whether it to sign
Speaker 1: like okay, they gave up or what was your thinking
Speaker 1: that because of that? But I'm just saying, but I'm
Speaker 1: just saying, like as the All Star player and team
Speaker 1: still like what you're thinking, like, damn these motherfucker's and
Speaker 1: gave up or that? What was your thought process? They're
Speaker 1: having a choice, they had to do that, bro it
Speaker 1: was it was. It was tough. I knew when they
Speaker 1: brought in and this is no shot to the other
Speaker 1: players they brought in, but they brought in players that
Speaker 1: are used to winning, right, have experience with winning with
Speaker 1: players who've never been to the playoffs before. So and
Speaker 1: we're still dealing with this the like like it was
Speaker 1: still a real thing. Uh. It did not help with
Speaker 1: the shootout that rides a year right after the brawl.
Speaker 1: So we're still dealing with the brawl. But votation and
Speaker 1: all that. People who don't know the whole story. So
Speaker 1: when they're backtelling when Jack's lips full up, like this
Speaker 1: is the shootout at the strip club, right, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: when I got hit by a car. Yeah, but then
Speaker 1: and then also the shootout with with Jamal that was after.
Speaker 1: That was after the trade. That was the same guys,
Speaker 1: but that was after we left. Because when mc corky
Speaker 1: was in the car with Room, yes, the same dude
Speaker 1: that shout they didn't have something. This is nothing. This
Speaker 1: is how a great team that he was. He made
Speaker 1: sure that if he got a gun license, the whole
Speaker 1: team they came to my house, remember, and we all
Speaker 1: got our gun license together. So the whole team got
Speaker 1: guns and we registered though right legal, We all legal,
Speaker 1: right so bound, So we go it's a training camp,
Speaker 1: were going to strip club and men are actually leaving,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, because it time to go home.
Speaker 1: We've been out enough, and some guys something happened with
Speaker 1: Jama tend in the club where I had to end
Speaker 1: up going back and find my gun to get hit
Speaker 1: by a car. Right, all that happened, you make it
Speaker 1: seem like that's just some little ship. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a big story, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. But maybe we'll do that doctor about that.
Speaker 1: But so that was the year after the brawl. So
Speaker 1: during that time before that happened, we were all. I
Speaker 1: was on probation. She was on probation for the ball.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we always on probation for the brawl. So
Speaker 1: that made me vio late, you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: probation And so my two years there, I get in
Speaker 1: the brawl, then I getting the shootout of stip Clubs.
Speaker 1: So Danny watch like god damn Al just stuck in
Speaker 1: the middle of it because I didn't do nothing to nobody.
Speaker 1: It was right after he just bought a house. But listen,
Speaker 1: it was right after the team just had a meat
Speaker 1: we had traded Kimp just had to beat about eight. Y'all,
Speaker 1: chill out, don't do this, don't go nowhere. Nothing in
Speaker 1: the whole team. We had traded Kim to go this
Speaker 1: rip club, the whole team. And like I said, once
Speaker 1: that happened, I remember, you know, two days after I'm
Speaker 1: trying to show up the practice, They're like, man, hell no,
Speaker 1: I mean, look at your going your ass home. But
Speaker 1: then the whole time they're trying to figure up a trade.
Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. I had nothing to do
Speaker 1: with it. I don't even know if they talk to
Speaker 1: you about it, but I knew they had a trade
Speaker 1: in the work says like, okay, just enough it just
Speaker 1: know we gott we gotta get a get this stuff
Speaker 1: cloud from over us and make it with some type
Speaker 1: of moves. So they had to do. I don't blame
Speaker 1: Donnie Washing. They still behind us doing everything though, you
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, But I'm just too much. So yeah,
Speaker 1: they held too much. I think I think it was
Speaker 1: it was consecutive years, you know, we had to deal
Speaker 1: with you know, it was literally three straight years of
Speaker 1: always something. El was like the situation of Ron retiring
Speaker 1: to rap, you know, the rap thing and Source Awards,
Speaker 1: Soorce Awards and all, and they were just always consistently
Speaker 1: something and they were trying to hold on because they
Speaker 1: felt like we can win the championship at it. And
Speaker 1: then when you start having shootout over with I don't
Speaker 1: need to laugh, but it's crazy to think in the NBA,
Speaker 1: motherfucker's just heaven. This is not a shoot around. Out
Speaker 1: guard your grill. It's not shooting around. So Jack and Alive.
Speaker 1: You hang around a couple more years, you make a
Speaker 1: few stops towards the end of your career. Um, what
Speaker 1: is that like? You know what I mean? You hit Miami,
Speaker 1: you hit Boston, you hit Phoenix, you end in Golden State.
Speaker 1: But what's those those final years like and what's your
Speaker 1: mental like at that time? Well, it really started, um Again,
Speaker 1: Like like you said earlier, I don't really speak a
Speaker 1: lot about a lot of things. I kind of sit
Speaker 1: in my own element. Um. I end up tear mom
Speaker 1: and had a slight tear momaniscus. Um. What year was that?
Speaker 1: This was right the year after the brawl, maybe the
Speaker 1: year after the year after that. I was shortly after
Speaker 1: and it was not diagnosed correctly, if you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Um, And that was kind of like the
Speaker 1: really the time where I felt like things were different
Speaker 1: with me physically Um, I end up doing it again.
Speaker 1: So back then, like, aren't used to aren't telling My
Speaker 1: agent used to have me send every you know, m
Speaker 1: R I took. I had sent it to him. So
Speaker 1: I ended up you know, taking another one and show
Speaker 1: that I ended up tearing it twice before it was
Speaker 1: diagnosed the first time. People don't people don't even know that. Um.
Speaker 1: And so my relationships um in the space and again
Speaker 1: I say this, and I say this respectfully because I
Speaker 1: absolutely love the Simon family that owns the Pacers. I
Speaker 1: love Indianapolis. Right, they gave me an opportunity to do
Speaker 1: things that is generational for my family, right, no question,
Speaker 1: right that relationhip. I'm still a little bit salty that
Speaker 1: the relationship is strained a little bit because of the brawl.
Speaker 1: But um, that situation was not handled right, and I
Speaker 1: had to do something different from my mental health and
Speaker 1: stability because I was salty. Right, we had trade everybody.
Speaker 1: I'm out there, I'm by myself and trying to do
Speaker 1: you know, do all. I can't even have a chance
Speaker 1: to win the game, right, went from being the best
Speaker 1: team in the league one of the best teams in
Speaker 1: the league too, at the bottom of trying to make
Speaker 1: the playoffs, and so I knew from a respectful standpoint
Speaker 1: that my time was up. They had a young Danny
Speaker 1: Granger you know, in Wing ready to go, and I said,
Speaker 1: I went to them and said, look, you know, this
Speaker 1: relationship is is is reached, this expliration and I just
Speaker 1: need to go somewhere else. End up going to Toronto
Speaker 1: for a couple of months to get to Miami. UM
Speaker 1: playing with d Wade was was was fun. Um Obviously
Speaker 1: d Wade is d Wade learned a lot from him,
Speaker 1: UM KG and those guys. That probably was my hardest
Speaker 1: two years of my career because um one, my knee
Speaker 1: was still bothering me a lot. Um. It just wasn't
Speaker 1: a good fit, right, it was. It wasn't a good
Speaker 1: fit for me. Um. I don't know if I was
Speaker 1: a good fit for doc um, but we had an
Speaker 1: incredible team. I had a good time, you know with
Speaker 1: those guys. But it just, you know, I believe that
Speaker 1: I I was meant to go there because of my daughter.
Speaker 1: Right if we if I don't go to Boston, we
Speaker 1: don't find the leak in our heart. Right And so
Speaker 1: that is to me, that was God's will and plan
Speaker 1: for me to go there because they had the best
Speaker 1: children's hospital in the world in Boston. So end up
Speaker 1: spending there for two years. Cold calls me, Um, I
Speaker 1: don't know how. I don't know how you found out
Speaker 1: I was having some issues with my knee and he said, man,
Speaker 1: we gotta check out author con treatment in Germany. So
Speaker 1: we end up going to Germany. At the time, I
Speaker 1: was I was so mentally out of it. I was
Speaker 1: just trying to finish my career on my feet that right,
Speaker 1: and end up going to Phoenix no expectations. Had a
Speaker 1: good time with them, and then Golden State. Obviously we
Speaker 1: know we all know what that city is and what
Speaker 1: was that young team like, because you got a glimpse
Speaker 1: on your way out of what was coming like right
Speaker 1: before that dynasty started making their run. You were around
Speaker 1: that young team with coach Jackson, right, what was that
Speaker 1: team like that? Dynamical and clay and direct. It was
Speaker 1: rare bro where you know in our league, you know
Speaker 1: money is king, right, you know, people see contracts coming up.
Speaker 1: It was strange because all of those guys came in
Speaker 1: together right a year or two apart. Um. They were
Speaker 1: like this coach Jackson, you know, Mark Jackson did a
Speaker 1: phenomenal job, but right away they work ethic. I'm like
Speaker 1: watching Steph and Clay before and at the games. I
Speaker 1: remember watching steps shoot him and Clay to shooting and
Speaker 1: if it hit the rim, it didn't count. Right, they're
Speaker 1: shooting a hundred threes right, And so when people seeing games,
Speaker 1: all you hear they does that ship like makes to
Speaker 1: hit the rim, don't care if he hit the rim
Speaker 1: and doesn't tell her free throw games like that, But
Speaker 1: motherfucking three point shooting. That's crazy. But it's crazy. And
Speaker 1: then you're with young Draymond and you know, I remember,
Speaker 1: I remember having a conversation with Steph and and and
Speaker 1: Steph can voucher that I said, Bro, I said, if
Speaker 1: you lead this team, bro, are you're gonna win m
Speaker 1: v P and y'all gonna win it all? I told,
Speaker 1: I told class of Clay, I think you're the best
Speaker 1: two way player in the game right now, Bro, unreal.
Speaker 1: People talk about the shooting, but defensively, you don't even
Speaker 1: get credit for you don't make no the offense. If
Speaker 1: it's crazy to me how good he is on defense,
Speaker 1: he doesn't get the respect he deserves. Just crazy and obviously,
Speaker 1: Draymond has been like my little brother, and we spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time talking about, you know, the league,
Speaker 1: talk about history, talking about you know, things that need
Speaker 1: to happen. And I was not surprised. I knew that
Speaker 1: they were gonna be good. I mean they were like
Speaker 1: this close the previous two years because we we had
Speaker 1: that a lot of city team and I knew, like
Speaker 1: week with Battle with you guys, but this I was like,
Speaker 1: this team is young, this is it's gonna be their
Speaker 1: league in a matter of time. And it was our
Speaker 1: tough was to make the final decisions every time. I
Speaker 1: know I was pushed away, but you know, you you
Speaker 1: was able to, you know, playing long eighteen years and
Speaker 1: walk out on your own terms. And what did that
Speaker 1: decision feel like? They say, I'm ready, I'm aint going
Speaker 1: loup b I knew my last two years, my last
Speaker 1: year going to games was like it's the hardest thing
Speaker 1: I did. I had to do, like getting up on him, bro,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm like, I'm like sticking my head out
Speaker 1: to winning like a dog and let them win. Air
Speaker 1: hit my face like it was it's taking me forever
Speaker 1: to stretch and get loose for games at the time.
Speaker 1: My wife and kids didn't live with me to let
Speaker 1: the last two yeares stop working up. Yeah, some little
Speaker 1: patches one day and like the next couple of games,
Speaker 1: like he's super loose, he's just dug it all right, man,
Speaker 1: everybody to put them passes all that, everybody put one
Speaker 1: of the circle. I had to try everything possible to
Speaker 1: get right for the games bro, and I knew that
Speaker 1: it was over for me because I didn't love playing anymore.
Speaker 1: Like again, my last two or three years was strictly
Speaker 1: about walking out on my feet. That's it, like I
Speaker 1: I it was so my last five years was so
Speaker 1: hard physically, like I never like people talk about a
Speaker 1: c L S and all, but that meniscus. When that
Speaker 1: meniscus is banged up and you can't grow it back,
Speaker 1: you can't repair it. That's bone on bone, right, Your elevation,
Speaker 1: your quickness, all that, all that ship is gone. And
Speaker 1: it was just more like I needed to be happy
Speaker 1: and respectful when I look in the mirror, right, that
Speaker 1: was more. I didn't care about anything else, what nobody
Speaker 1: else said, just looking at the mirror. Are you happy
Speaker 1: how you ended it? And that's that was my thing
Speaker 1: now It was crazy because the Golden State trying to
Speaker 1: give me to come back twice. And I remember the
Speaker 1: next year because I wanted the next year, and then
Speaker 1: like I'm at home like this, remember because we beat
Speaker 1: you guys in game seven, uh in in uh l a.
Speaker 1: And then the next year all came they came back
Speaker 1: and win, and that was your last year. That was
Speaker 1: your last game, bro. Listen. After that game we lost,
Speaker 1: I went my wife was in the room. I went
Speaker 1: back in the room. I just laid on the bed.
Speaker 1: I said, that's it. It's like I said, I told
Speaker 1: I said, she's like, what do you mean? I said,
Speaker 1: I'm done. I had I had nothing left emotionally in
Speaker 1: the game. UM. I needed I needed to give more
Speaker 1: back to my kids. So um eight years, bro, man
Speaker 1: of so much. UM it helped me be a better person.
Speaker 1: UM it prepared me if everything I think that I'm
Speaker 1: going through now and hopefully I can give back to
Speaker 1: my communities and things that I've I've been good at
Speaker 1: things I wasn't as good as and let them use
Speaker 1: that as a tool. So you kind of saw you
Speaker 1: just said, you know, You're last five years were a
Speaker 1: mental and also physical Brian, when did you start thinking
Speaker 1: about what's next? I mean, obviously you you're comfortable. You
Speaker 1: you did a lot, but as intelligent as you all,
Speaker 1: I knew there was something that you were going to
Speaker 1: be reaching for next. When did that start kicking in
Speaker 1: for you? When I told my meniscus, okay, I knew.
Speaker 1: I knew right away, I said, I said, just what
Speaker 1: they're talking about? Like he was just like, I keep
Speaker 1: like because you never had no surgery right just on
Speaker 1: his lips A minus surges like out of minusurgey when
Speaker 1: from winning down Protejays had money removal the way lout
Speaker 1: power of quotes, and uh, I had a broke broke
Speaker 1: my toe when I was planning protejacks and I had
Speaker 1: to get a bones, breads taken out much but not
Speaker 1: that serious. But I had him. I had a meniscus,
Speaker 1: so I told my meniscus. With the Lakers, went up
Speaker 1: for a rebound, got undercut and landed on my leg
Speaker 1: and was I thought I'd just prayed my ankle, also
Speaker 1: trying to shake it off. So I kept playing, trying
Speaker 1: to shake it off the field call. The time I
Speaker 1: would go to the bench, I put a towel over
Speaker 1: my leg and then I take the towel off and
Speaker 1: try to get up and my knees like this. I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, Like what happened? What happened? What happened?
Speaker 1: Like you tore something? Come to find out with my meniscus.
Speaker 1: But luckily they were able to go in and take
Speaker 1: the little piece out and then you know, six or
Speaker 1: eight weeks later he had been but he was in
Speaker 1: the hours. Just to credit them, we talk about how
Speaker 1: this smart is him and hours thinking businesses and stuff.
Speaker 1: We were in Yanda, like he had a club and
Speaker 1: like they were thinking after basketball, way before anybody else was.
Speaker 1: We think about that because like when we played, if
Speaker 1: that wasn't the talk in the locker room now you're
Speaker 1: talking about with now now the locker room and talk
Speaker 1: because I caught the end of it, what are you
Speaker 1: investing in? This isn't like at this company collect That
Speaker 1: wasn't the conversation. We weren't talking about ship like that.
Speaker 1: So that's why I kind of want to know, you
Speaker 1: know what excess And that's why that's why I tell
Speaker 1: you I would never fall off because I got real friends,
Speaker 1: the real brains. That's very smart to me that take
Speaker 1: him this motherfucker. I got him and I got I
Speaker 1: can never lose acts. But what was it like coming out?
Speaker 1: I mean, because Jack and I landed on our feet,
Speaker 1: never even thinking about doing commentary and funking with the
Speaker 1: media because we looked at media as the kind of
Speaker 1: the cops back when we play, like you don't even
Speaker 1: really want to tell them too much. But now we've
Speaker 1: been able to cross. So but what was your like,
Speaker 1: what was next for you? Think as you're coming towards
Speaker 1: the end, trying to you know, trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what the passion was, right, So I'm dealing with that
Speaker 1: in a lot of stuff at this restaurants or whether
Speaker 1: it's take businesses or kind of resort building and stuff
Speaker 1: like too. But um, like just making sure that I
Speaker 1: had a passion. I remember my first six months of retirement. Bro,
Speaker 1: it was held. It's a lot, bro it was held,
Speaker 1: but I was like, what am I supposed to do?
Speaker 1: And I actually had ship going on, But it was
Speaker 1: like I remember sitting in my office and like borderline
Speaker 1: felt depressed because I've been I played in the NBA
Speaker 1: half my adult life, right from seventeen to thirty five.
Speaker 1: Feel that boy, you know that's ex sedative nature. You're
Speaker 1: definitely missing. The biggest thing that I missed was the fellas, right,
Speaker 1: because we can go back into the communities and we
Speaker 1: can have some great friends in Dallas, Um, but it's
Speaker 1: different because they don't understand what we are. Like in
Speaker 1: many cases, we're dealing with the same situations about the
Speaker 1: family relationships, whatever it may be. And some people can't
Speaker 1: digest that. Right. They see, Okay, you got money, you're
Speaker 1: living in like this, and like like what funk's wrong
Speaker 1: with you? Why are you mad? And why you say? Right?
Speaker 1: They don't get that, And so I missed the bus rides,
Speaker 1: the locker rooms, the plane rides. Um. I don't think
Speaker 1: nothing in life can ever replace that. That's the main
Speaker 1: reason why I did the Big Three though, for that brotherhood.
Speaker 1: You know a lot of a lot of guys weren't playing,
Speaker 1: you know what about the game kicking with our brothers,
Speaker 1: you know, out on the wing events, Like it was
Speaker 1: just different. You know what I'm saying, Because like you said,
Speaker 1: that's what we all have missed that Coarabnerie. All right,
Speaker 1: we're coming down to the end, man, So first thing
Speaker 1: to come to mind, we have our quick hitters, tough
Speaker 1: at player matchup in your career, it could be a
Speaker 1: lot of Um. I would probably say dirt though, because
Speaker 1: he was able to shoot off either foot right, and
Speaker 1: he was set for tar and he kept it kept
Speaker 1: up here so you couldn't get to it. And here
Speaker 1: he'd come down hard on you and just stop and
Speaker 1: pull and pull right and you're still moving right, He's
Speaker 1: straight up and down. So I would say dirt. The
Speaker 1: whisk is probably the toughest cover, um that I've had
Speaker 1: that up. If you can go back and relive one
Speaker 1: night of your career, would it be then you have
Speaker 1: like a sixty point game we were together. If you
Speaker 1: got one game, you can relive when the game would
Speaker 1: have been ship probably the malice, Yeah, that crazy, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd like to relive that again. Um, what would you
Speaker 1: do different? So honestly, I would have preferred for us
Speaker 1: to have an on court fight with their pistons. I
Speaker 1: tried it, tried it a couple of times, took my
Speaker 1: shirt on square woo on it. Not you, Darren colemen,
Speaker 1: but anybody don't want to smoke with you. But that
Speaker 1: I would have rather had the fight with them, because
Speaker 1: then you're talking about a two to five games suspension, right,
Speaker 1: It's just a player of fight, right, and it does.
Speaker 1: It doesn't linger into seventeen years later and we still
Speaker 1: talked about the same then. R anybody but there anybody
Speaker 1: but Derrek Cole. When I did not want that smoke,
Speaker 1: I know my weight class, they had a bunch of
Speaker 1: that chilling. Was trying to break it up, but she
Speaker 1: was trying to break it up. They was chilling. You
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. When I squared up, when I
Speaker 1: tried to squad with Lizza Haison, the coon was be
Speaker 1: lining to in front, in front, I'm like, no, I'm cool.
Speaker 1: I'm going yeah, No, no, j Are you plus four
Speaker 1: going to the black Top? Are you taking all time?
Speaker 1: J Uh? Isaiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Uh Shock Chest, cheap
Speaker 1: top five artists, Big Jay, z Uh, Kanye, whichever Kanye
Speaker 1: you won't Yeah, probably so I ain't away heartbreak Kanye.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go. Um, I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: Drake too, Um because I ain't heard Drake put up
Speaker 1: put out no bs? You know how many is that
Speaker 1: right there? Um? Pop solid? Look he got emotional, you
Speaker 1: can say thinking about different five five Dinner guests dead
Speaker 1: or alive. Damn y'all hitting me. Um Holly Berry. You
Speaker 1: should know how much I love Holly Berry. Um, damn uh,
Speaker 1: Really that's it, he said, Really, that's it. You got
Speaker 1: five dog Hollyberry. You man, that might be the point
Speaker 1: of ship we have for that Barack Obama, Um, Martin Luther, King,
Speaker 1: Malcolm X, Great Fox. Yeah, gonna get a dope. Last question,
Speaker 1: my brother appreciate you coming. Um, who do you want
Speaker 1: to see on all the smoke? Before you answering? You
Speaker 1: have to help us get your answer on the show.
Speaker 1: I probably said Kanye who I don't we even loved
Speaker 1: to alcohol. You gotta go get him out the Georgia.
Speaker 1: Don sleep. We can't have a mask on because our
Speaker 1: things got to say him not to give you got
Speaker 1: the mask on just when that could be anybody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're gonna know it's Kanye Jo. Man. We appreciate what
Speaker 1: we said earlier. Man, you're not You're you're a man
Speaker 1: in very few birds. When you speak, people listen because
Speaker 1: you know what you're talking about. But thank you for
Speaker 1: your time today to luck with the project. I'm glad
Speaker 1: you're finally after seventeen years beat over to get your
Speaker 1: side of the ship out, so hopefully it'll rest, but
Speaker 1: it's probably not gonna rest for me, and it's gonna
Speaker 1: be a little wild after this documentary, I'm sure. But again,
Speaker 1: man for your time and a real brother to me,
Speaker 1: My brother you know, well, I don't know the twenty
Speaker 1: five years we've been knowing each other, so I appreciate
Speaker 1: you coming on the show and always holding me down
Speaker 1: to bro. Yes, that's a wrap, all the smoke, Jamaine O'Neil.
Speaker 1: You can catch us on Showtime Basketball YouTube or on
Speaker 1: the Heart platform Black Effects. This is all a smoke,
Speaker 1: a production of The Black Effect and our Heart Radio
Speaker 1: in partnership with Showtime