WEBVTT - The ShotSpotter Leaks 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:02.880 Al Zone Media. 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:09.680 Welcome dick it app and here a podcast sometimes occasion, 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.960 not even that occasionally, that's about a bunch of not 0:00:14.200 --> 0:00:17.240 very functional mass surveillance technology that's being deployed against all 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.040 of us. I'm your host, Miah Wong, also with me 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:21.080 as Garrison Davis. 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:23.360 Yeah, and so today. 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.720 We're gonna be talking more about something we've talked about 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:27.960 on the show I think a couple of times, but 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:32.040 that is the shot Spotter program, and there was recently 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.680 a leak of the locations of all of shot spotters 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:39.440 like gunfire sensors, and with us to talk about it 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.720 are the people who got the leak and wrote the 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:47.960 article about about where the shotspatter sensors are, and that 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:50.800 is Drew Mei Rotra who's a staff writer at Wired, 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:54.160 and Joey Scott, who's a freelance investigative journalist and photographer. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.480 And both of you two, welcome to the show. 0:00:57.160 --> 0:00:58.080 Thanks for having us. 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:00.000 Yes, thank you. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:02.840 Yeah, I'm glad to be talking to you about this. So, 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:07.160 I guess for the people who don't remember or like 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:09.640 have not listened to other episodes we've done about this, 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:12.039 or have read this article which you should go read 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:16.959 at Wired it's great. Can you describe what ShotSpotter is 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.480 and what it's supposed to do versus what it actually does? 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:23.320 Sure, Joey, you want me to take this or do 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:23.800 you want to do it? 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:26.440 Yeah? Go ahead, sure well. 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:31.960 ShotSpotter is a sort of controversial gunshot detection system built 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:35.320 by the company Sound Thinking. On the face of it, 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.440 the tech is sort of straightforward. The company will basically 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.720 install little sensors on street lights and traffic signs and 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:46.960 a jurisdiction, and these sensors are sort of like algorithmically 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:51.080 tuned to detect gunshots. So when one of these sensors 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.760 here's something, it basically will send an alert to an 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.400 incident review center will then like vet the sound make 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:00.960 sure it was actually a gunshot before we're then forwarding 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.760 it to dispatchers who send a cop to investigate the sound. 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:08.040 You know, activists and academics have been basically saying for 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:12.440 years that this tech is inaccurate and primes police basically 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:15.840 to go to low income community communities of color expecting 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:17.960 gunshots when likely they won't find any. 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.880 Yeah, and I think I think the specifically low income 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.800 communities of color thing is a big part of this 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.760 because so you all created a map of where the 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:31.840 shot spotter sensors are from the data you got, and 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.080 I looked at Chicago one and immediately I was like, 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.239 I recognized that map. That is the map of where 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:41.239 the not white people are in the City's. 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:45.040 Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's stark. I think a 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:48.680 lot a lot of the responses that I've seen on 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:52.680 Twitter and you know, in my email inboxer essentially that like, look, 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:55.160 this is just a map of where all the not 0:02:55.280 --> 0:02:58.960 white people are and whatever city that it's deployed in. 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.080 Yeah, and y'all did some analysis of what you found 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.799 sort of statistically about where these centers ended up and 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.760 like the sort of the the I guess like class 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:12.920 and racial composition of those places. Can you talk about 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:13.480 that a little bit? 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.600 Sure, I'll take this one just because I worked on 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:20.080 the analysis. So yeah, I mean, what we found is 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.799 that more than twelve million Americans live in a neighborhood 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:27.760 with at least one shot Spotter sensor. We basically joined 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:34.359 census data onto the locations of every single SHOTSPO microphone 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.160 and looked at the demographic composition of those neighborhoods. And 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:40.720 you know what, we found is that an aggregate, nearly 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.440 seventy percent of the people who live in a neighborhood 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:47.320 with one set with at least one sensor identify as 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:51.160 either black or Latine. Nearly three quarters of those neighborhoods 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.120 are a majority not white, and the average household income 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.640 in a neighborhood with at least one sensor is fifty 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:00.280 dollars a year, So these are low income communities of color. 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.240 It's kind of hard to describe it in any other way. 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:05.240 Yeah, And you know, one of the things, and this 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.200 has been a thing for so I'm in Chicago. There's 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:11.240 been a huge series of fights over getting rid Ofshotspotter here. 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:12.720 And one of the things you hear all the time 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:15.840 that shot is the shots are People will go, no, well, 0:04:15.840 --> 0:04:19.960 we don't use race as a factor for yeah, But 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.640 like ShotSpotter insists that they don't use race at all 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:29.320 in in determining where where they put these sensors. But kabba, 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.960 they've still managed to somehow create this map. And I 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:39.440 don't know, I I'm wondering what you think about like 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.359 their response and whether you and I guess this is 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:44.680 more of a subjective think, like how much do you 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.480 actually believe them when they when they say. 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:53.240 This, Well, I think when you know, we are investigating this, 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:56.400 we found that the police don't even know where these 0:04:56.440 --> 0:05:00.840 locations are, and so they're just given ShotSpot data of 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.320 where to put this stuff. So the police can kind 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:06.039 of wipe their hands of like, oh, we insisted that 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.480 they put it in this place or anything like that. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.000 And I think, you know, Drove can probably speak to this, 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.520 but you know, the argument is this is where all 0:05:15.600 --> 0:05:19.080 the shootings are, and so that's where they are. But 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:22.600 you know, when you investigate that, it doesn't call into 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.640 effect like in other parts of the country outside of 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.240 like Chicago or something. You look at gun violence and 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:31.800 where these alerts are, you know, they aren't just where 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.160 the alerts are. And you know, Pasadena is an example. 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.240 You know, shootings happen outside of where the alerts are, 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:42.440 but they're specifically in a very specific part of Pasadena 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:45.279 that is poor and non white. 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.440 So yeah, yeah, and I think you know, when we 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.840 spoke to sound Thinking, you know, I think it's important 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:54.680 to point out here that they did not dispute or 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:58.359 findings or the sort of authenticity of the dock. But 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:00.800 you know, they said what you would expect that the 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.359 sensor deployment is not really informed by race, and you know, 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:06.919 the way it works, as Joey says, is that the 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.839 company basically asks police department who purchased the systems for 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:14.200 data about gun violence, which Sound Thinking says is objective. 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.680 But we have no idea what that data actually looks like, right. 0:06:16.720 --> 0:06:19.840 We don't know if it's all crime data, which might 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:23.080 be you know, a subject to enforcement bias, right if 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.120 they include things like drug crimes on their drug arrests. 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:31.440 So we just don't really know why Sound Thinking, you know, 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:37.159 makes a recommended plan for their sensor deployment. The other 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:39.760 thing that Sound Thinking had told me is that, you know, 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.200 sometimes they'll ask for data and they'll do it this 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:44.840 sort of data informed way, but other times cops will 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:46.960 just say, like, look, we want the we want the 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.600 deployment in this area, and that might include like a 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:52.280 stadium or a school or places where people gather. 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:55.960 So you know, it's kind of we don't really know. 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:59.360 Why exactly Sound Thinking is deploying its censors in any 0:06:59.360 --> 0:06:59.960 given location. 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:03.719 Yeah, and having them be deployed by cops is like 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:09.920 he is a spectacular way to have cop brain in 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:14.000 terms in terms of locations, which not not not not 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.320 I don't know, not an especially good way to get 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.360 a statistically unbiased sampling of where you would potentially want 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.800 these things. So I guess I guess the a thing 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.560 we should talk about in terms of what the issues 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:30.720 with the system is are. Okay, So shot spotter claims 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:32.360 that it and this is something I've seen over and 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:34.200 over and over again. It claims it is a ninety 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:39.960 seven percent accuracy rate of detecting gunshots. There's just I 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:42.440 I don't believe it. None of the research I've ever 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.720 seen backs that up. You talk a bit about a 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.000 bit about like what it what it's actually detecting, versus 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:52.240 what what they sort of claim it is. 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.120 Yeah, I think, well, I guess the overreaching kind of 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:01.600 theme here is we just don't know. ShotSpotter is very 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:07.120 not transparent about their data. There have been really no 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:11.760 peer reviewed, independent studies of the technology. So when we 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:15.680 make when we talk about, you know, how effective it is, 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.400 that that is a claim that ShotSpotter makes based off of, 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.720 you know, very little information given to the public about it, 0:08:23.160 --> 0:08:25.760 you know, And that's kind of the big issue is 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.680 when you start getting down into the nitty gritty of 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.840 like what's actually going on. You notice that a lot 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:37.839 of the times what they consider a gunshot, police will 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.000 investigate and find out it was a firework, which if 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:44.439 you live in you know, I use Pasadena because it's 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:47.199 next to me. Out here in La you know, fireworks 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.000 are kind of how we celebrate and it's a different 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:51.000 kind of language out here. 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:52.720 You know, fireworks happen all the time. 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.920 So once you start getting into looking at some of 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.520 the data that I have been able to get, you 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:03.000 start seeing that, you know, maybe they claim it was 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.800 a gunshot, but when police show up, they don't find 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.400 any evidence of a gun crime, and sometimes they find 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:12.520 out it was a car backfiring or construction equipment and 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:16.720 all of that. And that just kind of shows, you know, 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:21.680 their claim that it's effective at identifying gunshots as you know, 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.199 very questionable to make that claim. 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.960 Yeah, and you know their ninety seven like the ninety 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:32.080 seven percent figure that they cite in their marketing material 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:37.600 is based on police reporting back to ShotSpotter that there 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.640 was a mistake, right like for Shotswatter to count a 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:44.719 the to count like a gunshot or to count of 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.320 sound as an error, the police have to report it 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.520 back to ShotSpotter, right, So it's almost like by default, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.120 if they hear nothing, they have one hundred percent accuracy rate. 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.320 But it's that you know, they're informed of this, they 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.200 you know, will adjust that rate well. 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.080 And also I mean that that's a metric that relies 0:10:02.240 --> 0:10:05.360 on the cops telling them. It relies on the cops 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:09.480 taking an extra step in an investigation. And these are like, 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.120 you are dealing with one of the most notoriously lazy 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.319 group of people, like in the entire country. Like I 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.160 have I have watched these people on duty in Chicago. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.360 They spend like eighty percent of their time standing around 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.520 on their phones playing candy Crush, right, Like this this 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:29.000 entire statistics thing requires them to do another step. It's like, like, 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.280 what percentage of the time is a cop going to 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.200 admit that they ran out to this thing and like 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:39.160 drew their guns and we're doing their like whole oh 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.000 there's been gunshots thing, and then there's just nothing there, 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.439 Like I don't know, it seems like cast a pall 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.160 over even this, even even the sort of potential that 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.839 their data can be right, right, I mean we all 0:10:55.880 --> 0:11:00.240 know that cops lie, Yeah, but we've seen them kind 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:01.760 of you shot spot or alerts. 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.800 You know, Chicago was one of the examples where they 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.720 were using it as cover to make illegal stops. 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.280 And you know, yeah that sort of thing. 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:14.800 So, you know, if there's room for that, it's hard 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:18.320 to then take what data police are giving them in 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:23.040 this way as accurate. And then again it goes back to, well, 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:25.240 we don't the public doesn't get to see any of 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.920 that information, so we don't get to make that I 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.880 guess distinction between the two and you know, know what's 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:36.360 best for people's communities because of that. 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.360 That's one of the things about this program that is 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.760 really alarming is that you have this massive aillance technology 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:48.400 and the people in charge of it were like the 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:50.600 people people who'd be in charge of sort of like 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.920 deciding whether or not you want it. It's like like 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:59.120 both both the general public and like city mayors et cetera, 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:02.440 et cetera, seem to have of so little information about 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:07.080 whether about what it's even doing that it's incredibly difficult 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:08.959 to make any kind of like any kind of sort 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.440 of data based choice. All you have is sort of 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:17.000 this combination of like the company going oh yeah, well, 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.280 obviously their stuff works, and then this sort of well, 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:20.920 this is the thing that's been happening in Chicago, is 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:22.720 this sort of like crime panic stuff they just that 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.360 people just fall back on, and they combine this sort 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.360 of crime panic with just the assumption that it works 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.760 because that's what it says in the box. And that's 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.079 a I think a really alarming combination to me. 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:39.479 Yeah, I mean, I think the fact that city council 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.880 members are kept in the dark about the locations of 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.040 these things, as are you know, the police departments to 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:47.880 pay for the cities to pay for it. I think 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:51.720 it's you know, something that's really been quite interesting as 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:54.200 after we published is that, you know, I've gotten a 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.640 bunch of emails from city council members asking, you know, 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:58.360 asking me if I can provide them data about the 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.800 locations because they can't even get them from the company, right. So, yeah, 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:04.560 there's a lot of transparency issues here. 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.920 Yeah, and you know, this is a public this is 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.600 a tool being paid with public money. You know. Another 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:14.840 thing we found in the data was that there are 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.400 a list of sensors that are broken or out of 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:22.880 service or anything like that. In talking to various police departments, 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:27.520 ShotSpotter doesn't let them know when that happens, and you know, 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.440 referred us to talk as the ShotSpot about that. So 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.080 you know, not even the functionality of like how many 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:38.160 sensors are down are really communicated and that's a huge problem. 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:43.839 But like again this data, as a journalist to investigate it, 0:13:43.880 --> 0:13:48.600 to request documents, I can count at least three separate 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.280 cities where shot spot are intervened and said the release 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:57.199 of the data would be a trade secret. And so therefore, yeah, 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:03.520 so like even any data that shows transparency of like 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.040 anything more detailed than just an alert that many cities have, 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:12.640 ShotSpotter won't release because it is quote unquote a trade secret. 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:18.320 Mind you, I have gotten documents from other cities that 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.080 are more detailed, and then when I request those from 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.560 other cities, shot Spotter intervenes and goes, no, that's a 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:24.320 trade secret. 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:27.360 So it's this kind of. 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:32.680 Trying to hide the transparency that then adds more skepticism 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:38.840 to the effectiveness and usefulness of the product, which the 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:42.840 public I believe everyone would agree deserves a right to know, 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.080 especially if it's taxpayer money. 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:49.160 Yeah, and so it's a lot of money too, So 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:50.920 speaking of a lot of money, Unfortunately we have to 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:53.440 take an ad break, so we will be back in 0:14:53.520 --> 0:15:00.479 a second. 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:06.120 Okay, we are back. 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.560 Something I wanted to talk about with the way that 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:14.360 these sensors are used, so about actually, okay, sorry, I 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.960 should have actually figured out the exact date after which 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.640 the story originally came out, but maybe like four or 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:22.840 five days after your story came out. There was a 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.640 story that came out of Chicago about a sort of 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:32.040 effectively the cover up of a case where CPD was 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:35.480 responding to a shot spotter ping and it was just 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.560 like a thirteen year old kid shooting off fireworks and 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.120 the cop showed up and immediately started shooting, and like, 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.560 thankfully cops can't set of a barn, so the kid 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:48.120 didn't get shot, but like, this child had a cop 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:50.880 shoot at him while the kid was running towards the 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:51.520 cop going. 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.760 No, it was fireworks. Yeah. 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:58.160 So I was wondering what kind, like, you know, how 0:15:58.240 --> 0:15:59.960 many of those kinds of stories did you run into 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.040 when you were sort of like doing this, running into 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.360 the story, and yeah, what is the impact of that 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:07.200 stuff sort of been? 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:10.400 You know, I. 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:14.880 Think that that example that you bring up is particularly egregious. 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:20.120 But what happens more often, I think, are these there's 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.960 sort of like less dramatic events where you know, sound 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:28.800 thinking or ShotSpotter will detect two shots and deploy cops 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:33.960 to a corner, and you know, they'll detain someone on 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.400 the scene, run their name through their you know, their 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.840 databases and find that this guy's got a bench warrant, 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.520 or you know, pick someone up on a misdemeanor. Right. So, 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:45.800 like I think, you know, while there are some really 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.360 egregious examples, the thing that that I think about a 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:53.320 lot here is that is just how much unnecessary, how 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.720 many unnecessary arrests are happening because of ShotSpotter, right, how 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.440 many people are being picked up on bullshit essentially? 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.520 Yeah, and you know that that recent case in Chicago 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.239 with the kid with the firework, and you know, it 0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:11.880 wasn't too long ago that you know, Adam Toledo was shot. Yeah, 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:14.600 you know, a thirteen year old kid for the same reason. 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.919 Cops were responding to a shot spotter alert. And the 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.320 Chicago o i G and their report about it kind 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.159 of highlighted one of the things, which is cops are 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:29.439 just primed to be you know, expecting you know, gunfire 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.080 somebody shooting at them and everything, and you know, I 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.760 think that's that is a danger. You know, but again 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.280 to what Dreve's saying is like it also leads to 0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:42.280 a lot of unnecessary stops. It opens up people to 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.760 be profiled and padded down, and you know, so both 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.159 options are not great, you know, when you consider the 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:54.320 harm that this causes. It's just we all know that, Like, 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.439 cops are very jumpy to begin with, So you know, 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.320 they hear a firework or you know, an acorn hits 0:18:00.359 --> 0:18:02.800 their cop car or something. We all know that, Like, 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.840 that's probably not what we need police to be expecting 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:10.280 on a call. And so you're just telling people, oh, 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.040 gunshots and then they're going to run in expecting to 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:17.480 be fired upon. And I don't think that's great for society. 0:18:18.440 --> 0:18:20.960 Garrison, you were talking a bit about that, So. 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:26.440 I don't know if there's much more to say. 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.359 I think that's true. We do a lot of acord cop. 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:31.960 I think the A Corn incident stands on itself. I 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:33.720 don't think it needs to even be talked about. I 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:39.240 think it I think one sentences uh speaks speaks a 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:43.200 whole a whole book's worth of possible analysis of police 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:48.640 behavior and no being the notion of police rushing into 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.840 every situation thinking that there's there was there was a 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.840 gunshot obviously has its inherent problems. 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.560 Now, like mind you, a lot of the times, you know, 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:02.520 and at least in in other cities, it's sixty to 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:06.040 eighty percent of the time they don't find anything, you know, 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:11.119 which I think is good in the sense that nobody's 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:13.560 being harmed or stopped, but it's also bad when you 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:18.639 consider the effectiveness and utility of the device, you know, 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:22.639 which Shaw Spotter has kind of distanced themselves from, you know, 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:25.879 this idea of preventing gun crime or lowering croun crime 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.800 and more in terms of like safety and arriving to 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:35.680 a scene quicker to render aid and help police find 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:38.520 shell case scenes. You know, you've seen over the years 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:42.520 the kind of switch of focus on what the technology does, 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.520 and that most certainly happened around the time they changed 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:49.040 their name to Sound thinking, yeah, I. 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:50.720 Think you know. The other thing I wanted to mention 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.520 here is that you know, from a different leaked internal 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:59.560 report from the State's Attorney's Office in Illinois, in Cook County, Illinois, 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:03.040 it found that like a third of arrests stemming from 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.040 a shot spotter alert actually had nothing to do with 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.320 the gun in the first place. So it's not even like, 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:11.080 you know, there eighty nine percent of alerts, don't you know, 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.000 result in finding a shell casing. It's that even when 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.720 there are arrests that occur from a ShotSpotter alert, thirty 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:19.760 percent of them have nothing to do with a gun, right, 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:21.760 And that just shows you sort of the criminalization of 0:20:21.800 --> 0:20:25.600 what happened are of people in areas that have these microphones. 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.560 Yeah, and I think I think the combination of those 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:33.040 two things gets you to this point about Shotspotter's effectiveness, 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.679 which is that like, okay, so we've had ShotSpotter for. 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.680 A while in Chicago, right, Chicago. 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:42.800 Police do not solve murders like it's sub it's their 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:45.640 murder clearance rate. And you have to keep in mind 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.360 that murder clearance doesn't actually mean they solved a murder. 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.560 But like, even that jacked up murder clearance rate I 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.520 don't think has had like I think they may have 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.240 had one year in my entire life, over fifty percent, 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:01.920 and that was because murder clearance. If two people both 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.439 shoot each other and they both die, that counts as 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.520 a clearance or they find us their suspect dies in 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.520 like another way. So it's it's pretty clear that it's 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:15.879 not actually substantively contributing to Chicago Police Department solving murders. 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:17.639 Like you have a better than coin flip odds if 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.920 you kill someone in Chicago that like the police aren't 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.600 even gonna like really try to figure out what happened. 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:26.040 And so yeah, I think I think it makes a 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:29.199 lot of sense that they've been pivoting away from even 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:32.560 like even claiming that this can do anything to solve 0:21:32.560 --> 0:21:36.479 gun violence, because it just clearly hasn't at all, and 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.760 it's instead it seems to be doing a bunch of 0:21:38.800 --> 0:21:43.200 other stuff, which is like either throwing cops around doing 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:47.240 is like throwing cops around chasing like shadows, which either 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:53.600 results in them arresting just random people or like having 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:59.720 these really sort of terrifying incidents, or it just results 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:01.800 in straight up nothing. 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:04.680 Yeah, we're gonna go to ads. We'll be back in 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:21.400 however long capitalism dictates, So see you then we're back. 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:25.120 And I think, like looking at the effectiveness, like two 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.280 cities that have continued to deny shot spot or contracts 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.760 are Atlanta and Portland, two cities that spend a lot 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:36.440 of time thinking about how they equip their police, spend 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.280 a lot of time like making sure that their police 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:45.359 are able to serve the largest amount of the community possible. 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:50.639 And the fact that, like specifically Atlanta, with their massive 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.280 like flock program of and integrated camera network across the 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:56.680 whole city, like it is one of the most surveilled 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:01.919 cities in the country, if not most. The fact that 0:23:01.960 --> 0:23:04.640 they are turning down this equipment for not being effective 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.239 enough and it being too costly is a sign for like, 0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:10.520 beyond it just being a sign, it's also like a 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:13.920 look at what why other police departments are interested in 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:17.320