1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: Okay, true story. Fellow conspiracy realist number of years ago, 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: Matt Noel and Mission Control, and I spoke with a 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: guy named Alex Winter. Might not immediately know who we're 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: talking about, but you should because he was a fundamental 5 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: part of a lot of people's childhoods and he went 6 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: on to become this amazing documentarian. Yeah, you may have 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: also seen him recently and the excellent Bill and Ted 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: faced the music. I'm not joking. It is a really 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: delightful movie that also involves time travel and some cool 10 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: science e stuff. But it's true. You made this incredible 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,599 Speaker 1: documentary about the Dark Web, and we had a really cool, candid, 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: fun conversation with the guy who was a very children Yeah, 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: this episode has a lot to do and the documentary 14 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: about the uh, the person known as the dread Pirate 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: Roberts and the Silk Road, and it's it's a very 16 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: it's a vital topic actually in a lot of different ways. 17 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: I'm really we got to have this conversation and bonus points. 18 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: I don't know if this made it into the final episode, 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:08,880 Speaker 1: but but bonus points. In addition to having and encyclopedic 20 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,479 Speaker 1: knowledge of the of what he's examining in his documentary, 21 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: Alex was also like you guys point out, Alex is 22 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 1: also super uh, super kind and super chill. So you 23 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 1: may hear a moment in the edit where he bakes 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: a hot pocket, which is just like the coolest thing 25 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: to me. I can't remember. I don't know if it 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: made it in, But let's let's listen along and find 27 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 1: out from UFOs two, Ghosts and government cover ups. History 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: is writtled with unexplained events. You can turn back now 29 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:50,639 Speaker 1: or learn the stuff that don't want you to now. Hello, 30 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt and 31 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 1: I am Ben. Of course, we are joined as always 32 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: by our super producer, Noel Excellent Brown and most of 33 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: ortantly you're here that makes this stuff they don't want 34 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: you to know. But this is not like our usual episodes, right, 35 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: oh No, we had a fantastic opportunity. You and I 36 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: got to view a documentary that has yet to come 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 1: out almost it's almost out. We got to view it 38 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: a little while ago, and we just got off the 39 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: phone with somebody pretty special. Yes, our special guest today 40 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: is Alex Winter. Uh. He is the director, producer, uh, 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: the mastermind behind the documentary Deep Web. Alex Winter may 42 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: be familiar to some of you for his acting career 43 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: as well. He is Bill s Preston and Bill and 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: Ted's Excellent Adventure as well as Bogus Journey. He also 45 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: started Lost Boys and Uh. More recently, you will recognize 46 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:53,239 Speaker 1: his two thousand thirteen documentary Downloaded. Yes, that's the story 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: about Napster and Sean Fanning. Really really interesting documentar if 48 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: you haven't seen it, I believe if it's on Netflix 49 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,080 Speaker 1: or at least at us for a long time there. 50 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: And as we put out this podcast today on a Friday, 51 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: this is the same day that Ross Olbricht, the alleged 52 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 1: dread pirate Roberts of the Silk Road, is being sentenced. 53 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: At this time we have not heard what is sentence 54 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: will be, but we were fortunate enough to sit down 55 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: with Alex Winter who walked us through some of the 56 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: biggest issues facing the online community and the average citizen today. 57 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: So the first thing we want to know is how 58 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: did you get to this story? What led you to 59 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: the deep Web? Fund interested in online sort of growth 60 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: of online communities from the beginning, you know, from the 61 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: eighties when I first encountered them, before the Web. And uh, 62 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: it was pretty evident at that time that you know, 63 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: these communities were going to have a massive impact in 64 00:03:57,120 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: that the Internet in general was going to have a 65 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: massive impact. UM. So I started investigating these communities. Then 66 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: eventually very closely tracked the Master rise and fall, and 67 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: I was able to make a movie about that story, 68 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: which was Downloaded, which was mostly looking at Master from 69 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: the position of global community and and it's and it's 70 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: the implications of that. And so frankly, when I learned 71 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: about the Silk Road, it seemed like here was the 72 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: next kind of watershed moment in the kind of rise 73 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: of global communities online. This was the first scalable meeting. 74 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: A lot of people were using it um. It wasn't 75 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 1: just a rarefied one off with a handful of people, 76 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: and it was a scaling community, but it was anonymous. 77 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: I was new. So I was an anonymous community in 78 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: a hidden corner of the Internet using a cryptocurrency that 79 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: could be anonymized, which was bitcoin UM and they were 80 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: it was mostly being used for buying and selling trucks 81 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: UM and that seemed like a good place to UM 82 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: to make a movie. And then Ross Sulfrich was arrested 83 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 1: in October, and at that point I chose to focus 84 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: the story on on his his case specifically, so Matt, 85 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 1: at this point, we're already hitting on one of the 86 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: big issues in the Deep Web film, which is anonymity 87 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: on the Internet. Right, We've talked about a lot, right, Yeah, 88 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: And so we also asked Alex about this anonymity, the 89 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:36,119 Speaker 1: the unknown things there, and we asked him who dread 90 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: pirate Roberts is a question that a lot of people 91 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: have been wondering, right, you know, the movie is about 92 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: is as much about unknowns as it is about knowns, right, 93 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: I mean, that's what's interesting about it is what do 94 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: we know? And so what I wanted to do was 95 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: raise very pointed questions, which is, how do we enforce 96 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: law and tried cases in the digital age? Um? You know, 97 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: can and will radical technologies change policy, including drug war policy? Um? 98 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: You know, what is privacy today? And how um does 99 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:18,919 Speaker 1: it impact the average citizen, you know, whether they're able 100 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: to retain privacy and then how much privacy they should retain? Um? 101 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: Usual all questions that that um kind of strike at 102 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: the heart of the Solker case. So they were you know, 103 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: questions I wanted to raise. I certainly didn't want to 104 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: answer them, and I don't believe they're actually our answers 105 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: for pretty much any of them at the moment. But 106 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: I think you're very good questions to raise. Yeah, and 107 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: we agree. One of one of the things that I 108 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,359 Speaker 1: had read in an earlier interview you had done was 109 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: the concept of an bitcoin and the economic ecosystem, uh, 110 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: the idea of a cryptocurrency anonymized as well. And what 111 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:02,679 Speaker 1: we were wondering is, UH, what effect would you, um, 112 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: would you estimate that bitcoin may have in the future, 113 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: especially regarding current existing currencies. Um, But I think massive. 114 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: I think cryptocurrencies, whether it's bitcoin or some other protocol, 115 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: are are here to stay. I think they're I'm not 116 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: like a bitcoin evangelists. I'm not one of these sort 117 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 1: of hedge fund people that you know, believes it's goal 118 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: to point oh um. But I think in a much 119 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: more mundane way, it's um. It has a lot of 120 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 1: really important uses micro nations that are able to circumvent 121 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: punitive fees for moving money around the world. That makes 122 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: a really big difference to your economy if you're a 123 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: small nation. Bitcoin has really helped those economies in Africa 124 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: and other places. Um, you know, the need for a 125 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: much more streamlined form of digital currency is very useful there. 126 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: And then you get into this little other area with 127 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: the blockchain and the underlying technology behind bitcoin, and the 128 00:07:56,640 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: blockchain as a whole host of uses, contracts and all 129 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: sorts of things that I think are we're going to 130 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 1: see are going to become the engine for other technology. 131 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: And so I certainly while not thinking that bitcoin is 132 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: is you know, it is something that makes me excited 133 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: because I think I think it's going to make me rich. 134 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 1: I do think it's it's a huge mistake to underestimate, uh, 135 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: the significant changes that are going to come as a 136 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: result of technologies like bitcoin. So one of the central 137 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: issues in this film are drugs, just in culture and 138 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: specifically the Silk Road, this anonymous place where you could 139 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: go and buy drugs online, and we wanted to ask 140 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: Alex how this pertains to the larger context of the 141 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 1: war on drugs in general. Well, I think that that 142 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: technology um is continually changing policy, you know, and you know, 143 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: the Internet is a has a an ability to to 144 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: speak for large numbers of people that may not have 145 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 1: had a voice otherwise. So technology is is the Internet 146 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: is a very good litmus to for the kind of 147 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,599 Speaker 1: the voice of the people, as it were. And I 148 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: think we're seeing a lot of issues come into play 149 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: because of the Internet. Um that relates to the Silk 150 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: Roath story. The drug war is certainly one of them. 151 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: People feel the drug wars of failure. It on not 152 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,599 Speaker 1: four decades, it's very expensive, it largely results in the 153 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: filling our prisons with non violent offenders. And there's a 154 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: lot of resistance to the drug war, and a lot 155 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: of people in the tech community believe that the Internet 156 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: community believed that technology can help change policy around drugs. 157 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: And then there's also privacy and anonymity tools and the 158 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: kind of growing movement around the belief that people are 159 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: too vulnerable on the Internet and that there should be 160 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: more privacy and anonymity online. It would prevent things like 161 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: the Sony hack from happening, and you know the Target 162 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: and at the Blue Cross hacks. So those are also 163 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: areas where people are taking matters into their own hands 164 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: and creating technologies that they think can help change things 165 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: and give them tools that they want. Um, as is 166 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: often the case in in sort of bleeding edge, progressive 167 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: or idealistic movements like this, they're often either in direct 168 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: opposition to the law, or ahead of the law or 169 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: beyond the law. UM. And that's what we encounter with 170 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: the Silk Growth. So here is one of the biggest 171 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: questions that here are some of the biggest questions that 172 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: people have, which is, how did Uncle Sam managed to 173 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: get into the Silk Road, how did they narrowed down 174 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: or find ross albrick, and what if anything to do 175 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: These kinds of techniques have to do with stuff like 176 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: Operation anymous Well. Operation Onymous was not about the Silk Road. 177 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: Operation Anonymous was a year after Ross was arrested, and 178 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 1: it was it was it took down the second Silk Road, 179 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: silk Growth two and the number. It was a global 180 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: initiative between US and international law enforcement agencies, and that 181 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: was targeting documents the darkness sites around the world and 182 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: the Silk Road to UM which was just a copycat 183 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: of the first Silk Road, just like you had Kazan, 184 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 1: Lime Wire n' tell and all these copycats after Naster 185 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: went down. UM. That's what that was, and that's what 186 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: THEONYMOUS thing was. The UM the finding of the silk 187 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: Road servers in the case of Silk Road one has 188 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: been a matter of debate since it was first a 189 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 1: matter of record in the court system. And we don't 190 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: have a hard and fast answer to how those servers 191 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: were located. And we may never have a hard and 192 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 1: fast answer to how they were located, and maybe a 193 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: perfectly reasonably legal answer, it's just we haven't been provided 194 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: with one. And this this kind of goes back to 195 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: the earlier point you had made about how many unknowns 196 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 1: exist in the situation. Uh, to go back to our 197 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: question about law enforcement on the had on one of 198 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: the big questions that we and a lot of our 199 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: audience had is is it possible to enforce the law 200 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: in a global digital community. It's very very challenging. Um. 201 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: You know what needs to primarily happen, which I would 202 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: argue is happening, It's just happening slowly because there's an 203 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: enormous amount of bureaucracy. Is there needs to be massive 204 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: reform in search and seizure laws in the digital age. 205 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: There needs to be massive reform in the legislative process 206 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: and the constitutional process for what constitutes appropriate uh uh, 207 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: you know, penetration of people's UM you know digital space 208 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: and UM that needs to happen with a warrant and 209 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: how that warrant is obtained needs to be worked out 210 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: in a in an adequate manner, and it's it's getting there, 211 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: it's just getting there slowly. The use changes have come 212 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: very very fast, and they are very big changes and 213 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: uh certain aspect to law enforcement or well ahead of 214 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: the curve. And let's not forget the government basically built 215 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,599 Speaker 1: the internet, um and the government also paid for a 216 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: tour and the tools that created the darknet all come 217 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: from the government and government agencies, so it's not like 218 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: they're completely behind the ball, but the government is big 219 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: and it's and it's multi prompt right. So just because 220 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: intelligence communities maybe really a depth in the Internet, it 221 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: doesn't mean a civilian law enforcement is a depth at 222 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: these technology tools. So there's like a big game of 223 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: catch up that's going on, and that's kind of what 224 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: we're watching happening. So on the day that this podcast 225 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: will go live, that's going to be this Friday, that's 226 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: the day that Russell Brick is going to be sentenced, 227 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: and we're reading the prosecution asked the judge to send 228 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: a message with this sentencing. Um, what what do you 229 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: think that message is going to be? You know, they 230 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: it was a very it's a very interesting thing. I mean, 231 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 1: I think that the prosecution is being extremely frank frankly. 232 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: I think that you know, I was in the courtroom 233 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: for of some of the trial, and it was very 234 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: clear that their intention, you know, which many people agree with, 235 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,599 Speaker 1: is to make an example of Ross and to say 236 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: to the entire darkness community and the black market community, 237 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: if you do this, you'll be punished to the fullest 238 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: extent of the law. UM. I don't think it's a 239 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: very common thing where you'll actually see the prosecution literally 240 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: say that in print. You know, you know they're thinking it, 241 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: but it was, you know, interesting that they actually came 242 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: right out and said it. UM. Uh, not even truping 243 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: the District Attorney's office actually, but regardless, Uh, you know, 244 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: it's a it's a direct proclamation. It's a declaration of 245 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 1: war against um, you know, the darknet markets. UM. It's 246 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: a Turkey thing, right because whatever we want to say 247 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: about Ross and what Ross did or didn't do, he 248 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: didn't create the ensuing drug markets and he's not responsible 249 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: for what's going on UM in those markets. So hopefully 250 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 1: the judge will not uht tack more time onto his 251 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: sentence for crimes that he didn't commit. It would be unfair. UM. 252 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: But I think that really the message underlying all of 253 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: this is just we feel we, meaning you know, the 254 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: government law enforcement, feel very threatened by rapidly evolving technologies 255 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: that we can't control. Um, we feel very threatened by 256 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: the criminality that can occur within those technologies. And because 257 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: it's very difficult for us to police that world, because 258 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,080 Speaker 1: it's very difficult for us to catch people in that world. 259 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: When we do catch one, we really need to present 260 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: them to everybody and then and then make an example 261 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: out of them. And I think that's what the letter 262 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: is saying. So, Alex, one of the toughest things for 263 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: me in watching this documentary was seeing brouss Older's parents 264 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: and how they reacted to the whole situation, how they're 265 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: dealing with it in in almost real time. UM. I 266 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: can't I couldn't help but feel terrible for them. I know, 267 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: I know, I agree. UM. I think that you know. 268 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 1: For me and I think it comes to crossing the 269 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: movie is I have a great deal of compassion for 270 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: Rossy's family. You know, how can you not? And they're 271 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: caught in a really, really horrible situation and they're having 272 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: to educate themselves around extremely complex ideas very quickly. Um, 273 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: how can you not have compassion for them? It doesn't 274 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: mean you side with with um one side or the other. 275 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: You know, you follow what you know, and in this case, 276 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: what we know is very little. I think that's pretty 277 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 1: clear in the movie. But you can absolutely have compassion 278 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: for those people, which we did. Yeah, we we love 279 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: gray areas on this show, and that's kind of what 280 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: it's about. So here's another question. What do you think 281 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: that the audience of Deep Web and our audience at 282 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: large could do to further educate themselves about the intersection 283 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 1: between anonymity, privacy, and government surveillance. I think that the 284 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: very first thing that most people need to be aware 285 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: of is that their privacy is on a certain level 286 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: in their hands, so they should The first thing they 287 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: should do is not the cavalier about their privacy. It's 288 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: kind of like watching someone else have a car accident 289 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 1: and saying, well, it doesn't matter how I drive because 290 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm never going to have a car accident, And then 291 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 1: of course you do because we all do, UM. And 292 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: it takes that collision, that that that physical, um, you know, 293 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: life experience to get most people to wake up to 294 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: any kind of responsibility or change. And I think that, 295 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, the notion of having to safeguard your digital 296 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: life is so overwhelming to most people who just figured 297 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: out how to get their voicemail to work, that it 298 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: just becomes something they get resigned about. And I don't 299 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: think all of this is in their hands. And the government, 300 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: you know, also has to work out legislation that makes 301 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: more sense. And you know, as I said before, reformed 302 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: certain seizure laws and and deal with warrants and how 303 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: all of those work. And I think it is to 304 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: be a bit more, a bit more let up from 305 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: the government law enforcement side, not coming down so hard 306 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: on privacy and encryption tools, which are only going to 307 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: keep getting stronger, and God knows we need them. I mean, 308 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: if you've lived through getting hacked, I have several times 309 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: your entire life completely sucked out from under you. Um, 310 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: you don't need to have that to happen to you 311 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: more than once. Before you you start using encryption tools 312 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: and privacy tools, and you start using better passwords and 313 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 1: a password app and you know, maybe encrypted text and 314 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,679 Speaker 1: maybe even encrypted phone, and under certain circumstances, all of 315 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: what you're getting easier and easier every day. Um So 316 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: I would say, you know, first of all, it's a 317 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: it's an attitude adjustment. It's the attitude that you know 318 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 1: what this notion that if I have nothing to hid, 319 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: to have nothing to fear, is really really destructive and erroneous. 320 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: And you do. Everybody has something to hide. And you 321 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: wear clothes because you you want the privacy of of 322 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: not exposing your body. You u a door in your 323 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: bathroom because you'd like to be able to go to 324 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: bathroom in private. I know that all sounds very flippant, 325 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: but it really isn't. I think that it's a very 326 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: short step from that kind of that sort of take 327 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: it it as a given notion of what privacy means 328 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: to being a human being. To your medical records, the 329 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: photographs of your children, your social Security number, your letter 330 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: that you wrote to your first girlfriend that's like scanned 331 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: on your computer. You know, painful family information that's gone 332 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: back and forth and you and your loved ones over 333 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: the years, that those are things that you want to hide. 334 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: Fair enough, it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong. You're 335 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: being a criminal, and so you do have something to fear. 336 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: You have both something to hide and something to fear. Man, Alex, 337 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: you're hitting on all these points, and I was like, Okay, 338 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 1: here's the follow up thing. Oh no, he's getting Oh wait, 339 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: here's the Oh he's getting that too, because we we've 340 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 1: covered some of this, uh, some of these topics a 341 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 1: lot in the past. And the reaction, immediate reaction we 342 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: get for many people is that whole I got nothing 343 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: to hide, come on that we needed. The government needs 344 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: to keep us safe, and they need to know, so 345 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: they need to know. So should our audience also be 346 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 1: concerned with private companies buying, tracking, and selling the data 347 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 1: of us in our audience? Yes, I think that that 348 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: is um a very big part of the problem. UM. 349 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: And while I I would maintain that the law enforcement 350 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: is a coming upon them to figure out how to 351 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: do their job without dismantling my privacy, it is common 352 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: as well upon corporations to figure out how to you know, 353 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 1: please their showholders and make a profit without dismantling my privacy. 354 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: I think that those are equal issues as far as 355 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: the private citizens are concerned, and these concerns bring us 356 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: to a larger point a question that we and others 357 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 1: have continually asked, which is, are we at some sort 358 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: of Malcolm Cladwell style tipping point in regard to privacy 359 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: for the average person? I guess by which I mean, 360 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 1: are we at a point where privacy may become extinct? 361 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,360 Speaker 1: Or are we at a point where there might be 362 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: a new understanding or a new widespread appreciation of privacy. 363 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: Uh No, I do not think that we are at 364 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: the end of privacy. I would actually argue the exact opposite. 365 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: I think that we are about in the in the 366 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: wake of the Snowden revelations and the Sony hack, and 367 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: the Target hack, and and the poor chance happening, we 368 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: are at the beginning of a boom in the privacy business. 369 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: We are at the beginning of the industrialization of privacy 370 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: in the digital space. And it will be it will 371 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:39,679 Speaker 1: be cheap, it will be ubiquitous, it will be it 372 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: will be uh something that the average user doesn't have 373 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: to think about. And their emails will be able to encrypt, 374 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: their phones will be able to encrypt, their texts will 375 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: be able to encrypt. They wanted to think twice about it. 376 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: My grandmother will do it. Um. And that's the world 377 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: that we're entering. I think by no means are we 378 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: saying good by the privacy. I think that on the 379 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 1: on the opposite extreme, I think people are about to 380 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: take their privacy back in a very big way. Fantastic. 381 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for this opportunity, and we can't 382 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: wait for our listeners to check out the deep web. Great, 383 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 1: thanks you guys. I appreciate it. Wow. Wow, that's cool man, 384 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: Yeah and inspiring. Now, just so everybody knows, uh, I 385 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 1: think it's it's fairly clear that you and I and 386 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: and maybe NOL have a horse in the race here, 387 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: of course, because we make our living doing shows online. 388 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: So ease of access, but also privacy our personal issues. Uh, 389 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: you know, we take that concern with us when we 390 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: leave the office. But now it's time for uh for 391 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: another interview, the interview we do at the end of 392 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: every show. Now, Oh yes, no, hey, Noel, did you 393 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: catch the interview we just did? I did catch it. 394 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: I was sitting here the whole time, It's true. Did 395 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: uh were there any questions that you think we we 396 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: should have asked? Mr Winter? No? I don't think so. 397 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you guys really seemed to cover it and 398 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: he had some really interesting things to say. Yeah, and 399 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: we're going to see how this shakes out. We're probably 400 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: gonna need to do an update on on this after 401 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: we hear about the trial. Uh. So we've been dealing 402 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: with some big issues. Let's get to another. Let's let's 403 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: get to something with a little bit of lightheartedness, a 404 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: little levity. What do you say, man, Yeah, this is 405 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: something that Ben and I have been discussing for a 406 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: long time. Now. We've gone We've gone back and forth 407 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 1: through emails, We've had a bit of a Twitter war, 408 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,160 Speaker 1: we had a flame war. Um oh, man, I think 409 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: I think we just need to ask well, yeah, you know, No, 410 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: you're the tiebreaker. So whenever Matt and I disagree on something, 411 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: we we come to you when we defer to your wisdom. Uh, okay, 412 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: you do it, Matt, All right. No, you're familiar with 413 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: a euro, Yes, a euro hero euro? Would you consider 414 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: that a sandwich? Yeah? What No, dude, it's a wrap? 415 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 1: Why do you always take his side? Wrap? Wrap? A 416 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: wrap fully encompasses the sandwich material. A a euro is 417 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: has a taco at best, you know. I mean it's 418 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: like half a rap sandwich. Yeah, I still tacos a taco, 419 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: but I mean a euro is not a rap. I 420 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: feel like you guys are persecuting me. Okay. It has 421 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: all of the requirements for a sandwich, except where some 422 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 1: people would say there's only one piece of bread, it 423 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: needs to maybe needs to be spl what about an 424 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: open face sandwich? Guys, We're not going to solve this 425 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: problem in this episode. I think we're gonna have to 426 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: ask for our listeners input. Tell us your favorite kinds 427 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: of sandwiches. But more importantly, uh, let us know what 428 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,640 Speaker 1: you think about privacy online. It was inspiring. Uh that's 429 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: the word I keep coming back to absolutely to talk 430 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 1: with Alex Winter about the future of technology, and and 431 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: I was, I don't know about you, Matt, but I was, UM, 432 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: it really meant a lot to me to hear a 433 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,479 Speaker 1: message that, um, privacy is coming back to the people. Right. 434 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well, I I don't want to get it 435 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: give anything away, but as we said before, Ben and 436 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: I got to see this documentary already, and there's a 437 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: segment towards the end. I won't give it away, but 438 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: in interviewing some people who are working on the very thing, 439 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 1: that very thing right now, and it's pretty pretty cool, 440 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: I think. Uh, I don't know that that made me 441 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: walk away from it with a hopeful feeling, which doesn't 442 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: happen with documentaries very often. All right, and we hope 443 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: that you enjoyed this episode as much as we enjoyed 444 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: making it. Again, a massive thank you to Alex Winter 445 00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: for uh for giving us really a brilliant explanation. Oh yeah, 446 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: all throughout the interview. And oh and if you are 447 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: interested in seeing Deep Web, you can check it out 448 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: on epics on the on May thirty one, that's Sunday. 449 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: That's Sunday as we record this. And we'd like to 450 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: know what you think. Is this, um, this big brother 451 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: kind of stuff? I mean, that's that's not even a theory, 452 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: that's what it is. Given the Snowden revelations that Alex 453 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier. Is this a necessary evil? Do world governments 454 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: need this level of scrutiny or monitoring? Right? Um, that's 455 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: a tough question. Yeah, and we'd like to hear your 456 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: take on it. You can find us on Facebook and Twitter. 457 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: You can check out this podcast as long as well 458 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: as every other podcast we've ever done on our website 459 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: Deep Breath w W dot Stuff they Don't Want You 460 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: to Know dot com. Oh man, that was great. I've 461 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,719 Speaker 1: been practicing. And that's the end of this classic episode. 462 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, 463 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: you can get into contact with us in a number 464 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 1: of different ways. One of the best is to give 465 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: us a call. Our number is one eight three three 466 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: std w y t K. 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