1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:00,480 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 2: I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts, 3 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 2: home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs, 4 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:11,040 Speaker 2: and many other great podcasts. Today, we're asking you, our listeners, 5 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: to take part in a survey. Your feedback is going 6 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: to help inform how we make podcasts in the future. 7 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 2: Your complete and candid answers will help us continue to 8 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 2: bring you more insightful and inspiring stories about important topics 9 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 2: that impact us all. So please go to Lava for 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 2: Good dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: for your support. 12 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 3: Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is 13 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 3: a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers 14 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 3: to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems, 15 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 3: including the failed War on drugs that has criminalized addiction, 16 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 3: fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities. By thirty five, Kelly 17 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 3: Lingard was an executive with a fortune twenty it company. 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 3: If you had asked her thoughts on addiction, she would 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 3: have said that addiction was about making bad choices and irresponsibility. 20 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 3: But after hearing the story of a woman in recovery, 21 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 3: Kelly's perspective shifted. She began to understand that addiction was 22 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 3: a problem of pain, not irresponsibility, as she discovered how 23 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 3: difficult it is for people to maintain their sobriety in 24 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 3: the long run. After watching too many women get sober 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 3: only to relapse and die within days or weeks of 26 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 3: completing a recovery program, Kelly knew she could use her 27 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 3: business skills to make a difference. She left her career 28 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 3: and started Unshattered with the mission of ending the addiction 29 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 3: relapse cycle. Unshattered employees women in recovery, training them to 30 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 3: make premium handbags from upcycled materials and providing them with 31 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 3: a compassionate community that helps them continue their journey beyond 32 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 3: sobriety to move toward healing and growth. It demonstrates a 33 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 3: smarter way of treating addiction that moves away from criminalization 34 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 3: and keeps people out of the system. Kelly Lingard is 35 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 3: one of the many entrepreneurs partnering with Stand Together to 36 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 3: drive solutions and education, healthcare, poverty, and criminal justice. To 37 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 3: learn more about addiction and the War on Drugs, listen 38 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 3: to the War on Drugs podcast on Apple Podcasts or 39 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: wherever you get your podcasts. 40 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 4: I know it's crazy this morning, it's very ominous. 41 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 5: We're back testing testing. 42 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 4: That sounds good. 43 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 5: To the roof. 44 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 6: I think we're good. 45 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 7: What time do you have to be there? 46 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 8: According to the website, they say that start checking you 47 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:00,919 Speaker 8: in it? 48 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 5: Eight fifteen. 49 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 7: Okay, So a few weeks ago, Kelsey and I flew 50 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 7: down to Florida. We met Judge Scott Cupp in a 51 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 7: parking lot of a public supermarket. Turns out Judge Cupp 52 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 7: had something he really wanted to talk to Leo about 53 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 7: in person. When we first found out that he had 54 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 7: arranged a visit with Leo and why, it just felt 55 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 7: like we should be there too. So we decided to 56 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 7: make the drive with him through the dense morning fog 57 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 7: of Bone Valley to Hardy Correctional Institution. 58 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 5: I don't know, I don't know how I feel. 59 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 7: Yeah, I was gonna say, what are your expectations, Chris? 60 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 5: That's why I want to spend a lot of time. 61 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 8: I haven't seen him in eight years. 62 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 7: More than a decade ago. Scott Cup was Leo's defense lawyer. 63 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 7: At that time. Cup would occasionally make the drive to 64 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 7: Hardy to speak with Leo. It began as routine attorney visits, 65 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 7: but eventually it got to the point that Kup would 66 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 7: make the drive to Hardy even when he didn't have 67 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 7: any updates on Leo's case. He just go to talk 68 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 7: to Leo. Officially he was going in as a lawyer, 69 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 7: but really he was visiting as a friend. But in 70 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 7: twenty fourteen, Cupp was appointed to the bench by Florida 71 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 7: Governor Rick Scott. An appointment like that is a tremendous honor, 72 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 7: the opportunity of a lifetime, really, but Cupp also knew 73 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 7: that taking the bench would mean that he'd no longer 74 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 7: be able to represent Leo, and as a judge if 75 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 7: he continued to visit an inmate, that would raise eyebrows 76 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 7: within the legal community. 77 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 8: That was the last time I was going to ask 78 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 8: him that, because I know I went to see him 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 8: right after I found out I was gonna take the bench. 80 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 8: I saw him before that to kind of get his blessing, 81 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 8: and typical Leo, he just chewed my ass. 82 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 4: When you say, uh, he. 83 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 7: Chuged your ass like this call is from a correction 84 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 7: facility and his subject to monitoring and recording. I asked 85 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 7: Leo about that last conversation they had eight years ago. 86 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 7: The last time Leo had seen his former defense attorney, 87 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 7: his close friend, he was. 88 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: He was telling me that, you know, the governor was 89 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: appointing him to the bench and that would mean, you know, 90 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: certain things for us. The biggest thing was that he 91 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: would no longer be able to represent me, and he 92 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: didn't want to make that decision by himself. And I 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: was blown away that he was, you know, giving me 94 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: the opportunity to sound up on it. And I told 95 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: him then, I said, Scott said, I cannot allow any 96 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: more sacrifice to this case, you know, and I'm definitely 97 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,920 Speaker 1: not going to ask you to sacrifice your career for it. 98 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: And we were in tears, and he had said then 99 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: he said, I knew you were going to say something. 100 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: I told him, said, I am super proud of you 101 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: that there was absolutely nothing to discuss in this will 102 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: you will take that appointment and you will go out 103 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: and be the best damn judge that they have. But 104 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, that was my comfort in knowing that I 105 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 1: know somebody, I personally know somebody that works in the 106 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: judicial system that is upright, has integrity, is honest, and 107 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: is doing the right thing. That's who you want in 108 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: those positions. That's who we need protecting society. 109 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 8: Typical Leo, he just doesn't think of himself first. That's 110 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 8: what's got him through this. He thinks of everybody else 111 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 8: and those aren't just words. That's where he lives. 112 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 7: So with Leo's blessing, Scott Cupp became Judge Scott Cupp 113 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 7: in twenty fourteen. 114 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 8: Taking the bench. That was difficult because I knew at 115 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 8: that point I'm done. I can't do anything to help him. 116 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 8: But again I was wrong about that because then I 117 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 8: met you. 118 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 7: Since that day in twenty fourteen, Judge Cup hasn't seen 119 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 7: Leo and it hasn't been easy. He says, it felt 120 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 7: like he was abandoning him. 121 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 8: We stay in touch sporadically, you know, it's kind of 122 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:06,799 Speaker 8: like a distant relative, you know, cards at the holidays. 123 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 8: But you know, now with what I've decided to do, 124 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 8: it's it's time for me to go see him. 125 00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 7: So the three of us pile in the car and 126 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 7: start heading to Hardy. The expected drive time is one 127 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 7: hour and twenty six minutes. 128 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 5: Do you really name that? 129 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 4: Really? 130 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 5: I don't think so. 131 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's a thirty one. 132 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's thirty one, sixty four seventeen. 133 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 7: All right, I get there, bangs Sitting Judges aren't prohibited 134 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 7: from visiting prison inmates in Florida, but it's unusual. Judge 135 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 7: Cup has sentenced defendants who are now serving time at Hardy, 136 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 7: and as an assistant state attorney, he'd prosecuted. 137 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 5: Men who have ended up in this prison. 138 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 7: So he's a little wary of being recognized during his 139 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 7: visit with Leo. And this time he won't be off 140 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 7: in a private attorney room. He'll be sitting in the 141 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 7: visitation room with all the other friends and family visiting 142 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 7: their incarcerated loved ones. 143 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 4: So, Scott, you said you've only ever been in a 144 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 4: prison for an attorney visit. 145 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 8: Yep, yeah, never been in as a private citizen. 146 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 4: How are you feeling about that? 147 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 5: Wow? I don't know. I really don't know. 148 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 8: I've been thinking about it obviously a lot, just a 149 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 8: lot of mixed feelings. I'm looking forward to seeing him. 150 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:43,439 Speaker 8: It makes me sad to see him still like this. 151 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 8: It should be just two guys getting together chatting, right, 152 00:08:51,600 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 8: and it's one guy and any other guy's a prisoner. Yeah, yeah, 153 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 8: I almost was thinking about but then that would be 154 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 8: like really admitting that I'm old, and see now I 155 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 8: was gonna put on a piece of little piece of paper, 156 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 8: just a little bull of points. I remember to ask 157 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 8: him about the remember to talk about that, Remember to 158 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 8: talk about this. But then I went, now, you can't 159 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 8: do that. 160 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 4: That's what I do when I go there. 161 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 8: I mean, I don't have to make notes about the 162 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 8: the main reason I'm seeing them. It's just all these 163 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 8: other things, you know, these random things. And I remember 164 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 8: to tell him about this, Remember to tell him about that, 165 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 8: ask him about this. 166 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 4: You want to you want to run through your list 167 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 4: with this kind of commit it to memory. 168 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: Tell us what world. 169 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 5: It's just a bunch of random stuff. One of the 170 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 5: things I definitely want to talk. 171 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 8: To him about is the drawing he made for me. 172 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, can you can you talk about that drawing? 173 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 5: Chrissy? 174 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 8: I think she sent me a the text picture of 175 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 8: this drawing that she said Leo had done in prison. 176 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 8: And it's of a lion and it's black. I don't 177 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 8: know if it's charcoal or a pencil or whatever it is, 178 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 8: but anyhow, it's just it was just really fantastic. And 179 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 8: she said that Leo had done it, and I just said, 180 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 8: if he ever does any more, tell him, you know, 181 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 8: I would really be interested in purchasing one. And several 182 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 8: weeks later I had been out of the office in 183 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 8: the morning, I think I came back and here's this 184 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 8: framed picture, the drawing of the lion, and it was 185 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 8: laying on my credenza writing in my chambers and Chrissy 186 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 8: had apparently dropped it off with a letter accompanying it 187 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 8: from Leo, and I was just I had to close 188 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 8: my tour, you know, pull myself back together. It was 189 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 8: it's unbelievable. And then a letter that went with it. 190 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 8: It was unsigned, and that, you know, it said at 191 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 8: the end one day that you know, when we can 192 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 8: get together, then. 193 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 5: He'll sign it. 194 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 7: Leo did a drawing for me too. It's a lighthouse 195 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 7: looking out over a rocky shore. 196 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 5: And rough water. 197 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 7: I keep it framed in my office when I'm sitting 198 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 7: at my desk, it's always in view. 199 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 5: I must have been him nervous, right, Yeah, I don't 200 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 5: know why. 201 00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 8: It's just kind of I don't know, this is like 202 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 8: a kick off again, a lot of changes coming. 203 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, but he's worth it A question about it. 204 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 4: So we're basically here, this. 205 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 5: Baby, so that means as a mama. 206 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 8: Someone seems like less cars than usual. 207 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 4: Look good, only a few minutes after nine. Hopefully there's 208 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:24,679 Speaker 4: not really a line. 209 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 5: My usual spot. Wow, Wow, what do we do now? 210 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 7: Just take a walk up to the Hearty c I 211 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 7: main unit. So you just want to bring your driver's license? 212 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: Yeah? 213 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 5: I got my driver's license and twenty buckers. You do it? 214 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 5: You love everybody? 215 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 7: Yeah, Kelsey and I watch as Judge Cup walks toward 216 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 7: the entrance. He's dressed casually, jeans and a sweatshirt. 217 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: Oh h less related works. 218 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: You could see Leo. 219 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:04,839 Speaker 5: I know. 220 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 4: It sucks being here and now I wh I's so close. 221 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 7: I know it's really really hard thinking about this. It's 222 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 7: been over a year since I last saw Leo. That 223 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 7: was when I went to see his band The Watchers 224 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 7: play in that concert. That was a really special visit 225 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 7: because instead of just sitting in a small room together, 226 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 7: Leo was able to give me a tour of the 227 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 7: war room where he prayed for Jeremy Scott. Apparently, as 228 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 7: a member of the media, I shouldn't have been permitted 229 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 7: to do that visit, and even though I'd been approved, 230 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 7: I'm now under review with the Florida Department of Corrections. 231 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 7: So for now, Kelsey and I aren't allowed to visit 232 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 7: with Leo. Visiting hours at Hardy run from nine am 233 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 7: to three pm, and Judge Cupp was planning on spending 234 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 7: that whole time with Leo. So Kelsey and I walked 235 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:00,199 Speaker 7: back to the car. 236 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 4: Anything you want to say about this experience? Droppings got 237 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 4: off about today? 238 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: WHOA what the fuck is? 239 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 5: Those things are about fifty yards away and they're that. 240 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 4: Loud, big big cranes, the ones with the red heads. 241 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 4: I don't know which. I don't know what those ones 242 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 4: are called? All right, Oh my gosh, I bet I 243 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 4: wonder if they're like having their moment in there right now. 244 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 4: I don't know. Okay, let's go. That's is all, okay. 245 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 7: We had a few hours to kill, so we drove 246 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 7: around Bone Valley, grabbed lunch, and headed back to Hardy 247 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 7: to pick up Judge Cup. We were standing in front 248 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 7: of the main gate, looking toward the visitor pavilion. We 249 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 7: watched as other inmates visited with their loved ones. One 250 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 7: family was playing a game of cornhole. A couple affectionately 251 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 7: wrapped their arms around each other. Two young kids ran 252 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 7: through the pavilion, darting around tables and chasing each other laughing. 253 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 7: These moments felt so intimate, like something we shouldn't be watching. 254 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 7: But there we were on the outside, seeing it all 255 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 7: through multiple layers of chain link fence and barbed wire. 256 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 5: So we were hoping maybe Leo can find someplace to 257 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 5: wave to us, but. 258 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know either. 259 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 7: While we were standing there, a prison official approached us. 260 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 6: Hello, where does your bag a friend to visit? 261 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 5: I have a question for you, pavilion. 262 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 6: It is it is we have an inmate that one 263 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 6: of our friends is going into, saying, we were just 264 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 6: wondering if we could wave to them, but we don't 265 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 6: think that's possible. 266 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 4: I know who you guys are you do I do? 267 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 8: Ye? 268 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 6: You're here? 269 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 5: You know that I watched the twenty twenty in the podcast? 270 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 6: Oh yeah, okay, yeah, what do you think I can? 271 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 4: Yeah? 272 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 7: She asked us to turn off the tape recorder. That's 273 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 7: when she told us that she's known Leo for years 274 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 7: and she thinks he's innocent. It doesn't belong in prison. 275 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 4: Oh, here comes Scott. He's just coming out from his 276 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 4: visit with Leo. We were able to wave at Leo, 277 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 4: and we saw Scott and Leo put their arms around 278 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 4: each other and hug and it was just really beautiful 279 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 4: to be able to witness that. Okay, let's see hi, 280 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 4: I'm here with my microphone to put in your face. 281 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 5: Starting to get used to it. Yeah, he I'm glad. 282 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 8: I'm glad I made the decision that I'm making. 283 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 5: I don't know, it's kind of let's walk back, ok. 284 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 6: Yeah, we were just picking him up. 285 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:27,199 Speaker 5: We'll leave. 286 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 4: I'm so sorry. Thank you. 287 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 7: Once we got in the car, our ride back was 288 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 7: mostly quiet. It was clear to us the judge Cup 289 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 7: needed some time to process. 290 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 8: It was pretty intense, it was pretty overwhelming. It was 291 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 8: really nice to reconnect and just and I told him, 292 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 8: I said, I just I think he wanted to too. I 293 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 8: just wanted to talk about whatever whatever came up, and 294 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 8: not anything too heavy. And then it just kind of 295 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 8: Then it got a little more intense when I told 296 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 8: him what I was going to do and that I'm 297 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 8: planning to step off the bench effect at March first 298 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 8: and go back to being his lawyer. 299 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 5: So this is happening. 300 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: Listen, that's a pretty big statement. And as a friend, 301 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: a close family friend, that's a weighty proposition for me. 302 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 7: I talked to Leo after the visit to ask him 303 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 7: how he felt about Judge Cupp's intention to leave the 304 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 7: bench and represent him again alongside his other lawyers. 305 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I know a lot about Scott's background and 306 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: long he's been an attorney. How long you worked as 307 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: a prosecutor, how long he worked as a defense attorney 308 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: for me, and you know, and then worked his way 309 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: to the bench, you know what I mean. And I 310 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: gotta i gotta think that's kind of been an aspiration 311 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: of his, you know, for a long time. When he 312 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: had asked to become my lawyer again, I'm like, you know, 313 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: my biggest concern that I had was that, you know, 314 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: this was not something he was doing because he felt 315 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: obligated and he felt responsible, or because Scott is not 316 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,360 Speaker 1: the reason why I'm in prison. So I didn't want 317 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,959 Speaker 1: Scott thinking that, you know, he had to do this 318 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 1: for me, because he doesn't owe me anything. Friends don't 319 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,479 Speaker 1: owe friends. And we talked a little bit more, and 320 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: then he said, I noticed you didn't answer me, So 321 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: is that a yes sport or what I'm looking at him? 322 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 1: He said, And I'm like, you know what he said, 323 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: you're gonna let me in. I said, Scott, I never 324 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: let you out, you know, so I mean not hard 325 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: for me to let you in. And and I said, 326 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 1: I just wanted to make sure that this is something 327 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: that you actually wanted to do. And he said, I 328 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 1: don't want to do this. I need to do this, 329 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: and he emphasized the need. 330 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,360 Speaker 8: I just told, you know, can't never, can't ever let 331 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 8: it go. I guess I put him in a position 332 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,120 Speaker 8: that if he protested too much, it's like, Okay, well, 333 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 8: I guess you'll have to find another lawyer. Yeah, I'm 334 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,360 Speaker 8: going to be devoting all my energy being singlely focused 335 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 8: on making sure he's out. 336 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,399 Speaker 1: By the end of the visit, he was saying, I 337 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 1: need you to, you know, keep your head above water 338 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: and everything. I said, I'm good. My superheroes back. 339 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 5: You know. 340 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: I had this analogy and my boat is going down. 341 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: I'm thinking that the state has has torpedoed it, and 342 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 1: I'm going down, and Scott was always the one bailing 343 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 1: the water with me. I mean, you know, Scott's in 344 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: that boat with me, and he's feeling the emotion of it. 345 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: And that was always important to me. It was it 346 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: was was the one thing that allowed me to get 347 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: emotional thinking about it. It allowed me to look for 348 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: another day to fight. I wouldn't even know what it 349 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: would be when the boat's going down. No one knows 350 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: what the next step is going to be, just going down. 351 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 1: But I know that as long as I had Scott 352 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: with me, we'll find another door, We'll find another way 353 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: to get the boat above water. And you know, that's 354 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: just the kind of guy that Scott really is. 355 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 7: Leo brings up this boat analogy all the time. He says, 356 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 7: Judge Cupp is in the boat with him, helping him 357 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 7: bail water from the sinking ship. Leo tells me that 358 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 7: I can't be in the boat. It's a legal fight, 359 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 7: and what I'm doing telling his story is a different 360 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 7: kind of thing. He says he can't have me in 361 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 7: the boat going down with him. He says he needs 362 00:21:51,600 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 7: me to be the lighthouse guiding the boat to safety. 363 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 7: Judge Cup could stay on the bench for many more years, 364 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,959 Speaker 7: and that's usually what judges do. They often devote their 365 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 7: whole careers to trying to get and keep their seat 366 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 7: on the bench. But he's letting it all go to 367 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 7: get back in the boat. 368 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 5: With Leo. 369 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 7: Judge Cup's letter is short and to the point. It reads, 370 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 7: Dear Governor DeSantis, please accept this as my letter of resignation. 371 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,880 Speaker 7: My last day will be March first, twenty twenty three. 372 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 7: I have enjoyed and am grateful for my time spent 373 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 7: on the bench in the twentieth Circuit. I look forward 374 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 7: to the opportunities and challenges of returning to private practice. Sincerely, 375 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 7: Scott H. Cup, Circuit. 376 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: Judge, you have one minute remaining. 377 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 6: Well listen. I just want to tell you, just standing 378 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 6: outside the prison and seeing you through that fence was 379 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 6: a really bittersweet for both Kelsey and I. It was 380 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 6: just really hard to just wave to you and not 381 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 6: be able to come over to you. 382 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, but I think you. 383 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,120 Speaker 6: Know, okay, I think we knew where our heart's were 384 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 6: at that moment, yelling. 385 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: Across our hearts will want as they will continue to be. 386 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 5: I love you, Bud, Thank you too much. 387 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 6: Okay, Buddy, thank you for calling. We'll talk sooner, sir, anytime. 388 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: Buddy. 389 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 2: Good night, you too, man. 390 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 5: Thanks bye. 391 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 7: Many of you have been reaching out to me asking 392 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 7: what you can do to help Leo. Right now, the 393 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 7: best thing to do is to sign the petition that's 394 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 7: been set up by the Innocence Project of Florida to 395 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 7: have Leo's case transferred to a different circuit for an 396 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 7: independent review. You can find the change dot org petition 397 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 7: in our show notes. Follow the Bone Valley podcast for updates.