WEBVTT - Will America SURVIVE Donald Trump’s Presidency? 0:00:00.000 --> 0:00:02.720 Hello there, I'm chucked out. Welcome to another episode of 0:00:02.759 --> 0:00:05.880 The Chuck Podcast. And yes, I'm still the host of 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.119 my own podcast. I tas because I don't know who 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:11.960 else would do it if you're going to name it 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:17.320 the Chuck Podcast. But I digress. I welcome new listeners, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:20.800 new subscribers to the content, whether you've liked and subscribed 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:24.080 on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast, if 0:00:24.079 --> 0:00:26.640 you watch us in video form as well, thank you. 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:31.440 We've seen the growth lately. It's great, it's reassuring, and 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:34.640 it's good to know. Look, this is a tough business 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.000 to get into the independent media business, especially if you're 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:37.880 not a partisan hack. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:38.519 Right. 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:40.479 It's a lot easier to be a partisan hack in 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:44.440 this world in order to quote get attention. But when 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:46.640 you're building something that I'm hoping to be building here, 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.199 it's incremental. So it makes you more grateful that I 0:00:50.240 --> 0:00:53.760 know I'm earning every like and subscribe that you get, 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:58.760 rather than just trying to ride a grievance wave, whether 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:00.520 it's a liberal one or a concern a bit of one. 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.360 On this front, I'm going to go through three topics, well, 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:11.280 two topics today, plus a fun interview hip the Welcome 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:16.200 to Welcome to Reality with the World of Epstein, Jeffrey 0:01:16.200 --> 0:01:19.280 Epstein and the Epstein Files going to tackle a little 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:24.480 bit of where Elon Musk if he chose to actually 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.320 engage in third party politics, where in twenty twenty six 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.039 he could be the most impactful I'll give you that 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.920 guide there. Then my interview with Marjorie again and Jim Roddy. 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:38.720 Jim and Marjorie have hosted the Jim and Marjorie Show 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:42.800 throughout the Boston media markets on a variety of places 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:46.840 that currently with WGBH, which is Boston Public Radio. I've 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:50.160 appeared on their show for over a decade and I'd 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.920 never had them appear in my show, so finally I 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:56.680 get them. It's lively, it's fun, it's interesting. If you 0:01:56.760 --> 0:01:59.280 love politics, you're going to love these two. Well, you 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:03.080 talk every thing future of media. If you like your 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.840 Kennedy politics, We talk a little Kennedy. What happened to 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.280 the Kennedy mystique? Is it still viable? How much is 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:14.160 Bobby Kennedy Junior sort of destroyed the brand? So a 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.880 fun conversation will be had there. We even touched on 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:18.600 the Epstein Files a little bit, And that's where I'm 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:23.000 going to begin, because I think the most distressing thing 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:25.640 here is that you know what happens when conspiracy theorists 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:28.920 become the government, and that's that's you know, this is 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.480 the lesson right. You know, the expressions you reap with you, 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.040 so you know when you when you create an information 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:40.320 ecosystem that's built on conspiracy and built on distrust, that's 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:41.880 all well and good. If that's how you're going to 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.400 exploit and profit from it. Your Dan Bongino's did that 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:48.440 your cash betels Donald Trump? There's no doubt quite a 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:52.760 few people in the right wing ecosphere has created this 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.840 misinformation nightmare that we've all been living in a lot 0:02:56.880 --> 0:03:00.440 of distrust and many folks on the right and particular, 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.440 but frankly with Jeffrey Epstein, there isracy. The conspiracy theorists 0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:07.880 are not on one side of the aisle. They're everywhere. 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:13.200 The belief that there is always more that's hidden than 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:15.600 what's been revealed, and it's I'm not going to sit 0:03:15.600 --> 0:03:18.680 here and discount that that isn't true. Why won't I 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:22.200 discount it? Because our government only in the last month 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.560 admitted that the CIA had a file on Oswald before 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.560 and even had and there was even a case worker 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:35.280 on Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, before he shot Kennedy. So 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:39.080 the CIA had been trying to deny anything like that 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:42.520 for decades. So if our government is capable of keeping 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.880 a secret like that for over sixty years, I understand 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:50.400 why there's so much skepticism of how government handles anything, 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:55.040 let alone something that could be as controversial as Jeffrey 0:03:55.080 --> 0:04:00.320 Epstein's alleged client list. Right, I say alleged because there's 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:04.360 been reporting that it exists, and then suddenly it supposedly 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:08.000 it doesn't exist, et cetera. I'm one of those, as 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.560 many of you know. I'm an Okham's razor person. I 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:16.640 also think it's very hard for conspiracies to sort of hold, 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:19.680 if you will, right, there's always a break. I mean, 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:25.080 I I'm on Kennedy. I've always believed that the government 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:30.240 conspiracy is simply covering their ass. It's not CIA at 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:34.800 c YA. They're paranoid that they did that one of 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:36.800 their guys, somebody they were keeping an eye on they 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:38.520 weren't doing a good job with, because if they had 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:40.159 kept a really good eye on them, maybe they would 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.200 have been able to stop them. And my thesis on 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:46.400 that has always been that that it with the CIA 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.600 didn't want to admit that it messed up like this. 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:55.640 That's been my thesis, not alone in that thesis. Others 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:59.000 believe that it must be if they're concealing that what else? 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.840 So they're concealing And it's a reminder. I've talked to 0:05:01.880 --> 0:05:04.400 some good friends on this issue of the JFK conspiracy. 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:08.599 Is there anything the government could release that would say, Okay, 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.839 I now know the whole story, anything right? And the 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.760 answer I get is, well, know that the assumptionet is 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:17.520 if you if you give them some moll out, you 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.080 hit that or there must be something more hidden. And 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:23.360 that brings me to the Jeffrey Epstein phenomenon. Right and 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.679 right now, you know this is the akin of Maggie 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:31.359 Maga eating itself. Right, They're literally this this. The snakes 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.920 are swallowing their tail, their own tails, if you will. 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.039 And it's because they've created you know, they created an 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.719 information of distrust, They created an atmosphere of distrust. They 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:50.560 raised expectations and turned rumors into potential facts. Uh, and 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.159 they were going to get to the real story once 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:55.920 they got power. And you know it. You know this 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:58.880 isn't deep state figures. You know this that's in power. 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.520 These are the conspiracy theorists themselves got the power. They 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:05.520 got the keys, they got the access. Tulsa Gabbert got 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.120 access to the JFK files, right, Cash Betel and Dan Bongino, 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:14.080 Dan Bongino in particular, who has become wealthy trafficking and 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.760 these conspiracy theories and misinformation. They got the keys to 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:21.920 the kingdom. And either there are now participants in this 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.919 conspiracy that they have been railing about for years and 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:27.800 now the shoes on the other foot, which some in 0:06:27.839 --> 0:06:34.000 MAGA now believe, or the more likely result is, oh, 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.240 the truth is the truth, and there's no more there 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:42.760 than anybody else could hope, might have hoped that there was, 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.960 because you know, this has been some you know, desperate 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.039 attempt to try to you know, look, I understand, you know, 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:50.839 when you have this moment that we live in, which 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:52.599 is just a lot of people don't like the elites, 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:55.839 don't like their station in life, and so they want 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.239 to believe that the elites are like not human beings, 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:02.000 that they are off and creating pedophile islands and all 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:06.200 sorts of bizarre, weird behavior because it makes it easier 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.960 to then hate the elites and dehumanizing the elites. And 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:15.560 now we're now now now you have the Trump administration 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:17.640 that can't get their own people to believe what they're saying. 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:23.240 They're not going to believe it, especially because of Pam Bondi, 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:28.080 who while Attorney General, kept trying to play into the story. 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.480 Right She was leaning into the story a few months ago, 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:32.400 claiming she was going over the client list, she was 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.360 getting ready to They did that ridiculous pr stunt where 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:37.720 they handed these notebooks to the to these right wing 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.160 influencers who all flashed it in front of the White House, 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.840 you know, sort of part one of all these secret 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:47.520 files that they were going to release. And now suddenly 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.119 you know, they're trying to wrap it up. And look, 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:56.200 the behavior of the administration is extraordinarily defensive. Donald Trump's 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.560 immediate shutting down of the question of Pambondi and the 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:03.760 cabinet meeting shows you. It's just they consistently are behaving 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.560 as if they do have something to hide. Now, I 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:08.600 happen to think what they're hiding is that they've been 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:12.280 bullshitting you for years. They've been making stuff up about 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:16.040 this for years and now, but at the end of 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.560 the day, they don't want to admit that they were lying, 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.200 because the minute you admit you were lying, then what 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:23.560 else are you lying about? 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:23.880 Right? 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:28.320 So this is the trap that the Trump misinformers, who 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:31.080 are now in office and are now supposed to be 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.840 those that have the government facts that who is to 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.880 believe anything? And this is the concern that I think, 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:41.920 you know a lot of people have had about our 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:48.440 misinformation crisis, about the big tech companies only surfacing information 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:53.320 based on popularity or interest rather than in truth, is 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.240 that we now have a situation where nobody knows what 0:08:56.320 --> 0:09:00.440 to believe. Number one and number two an assumption of 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.920 everybody's lying, and you've got to somehow find a way 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.200 to be you know, you're sort of you're guilty until 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:10.360 proven innocent. And in the in the world of social media, 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:15.640 the world of internet algorithms, it's pretty hard. It's pretty difficult. 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:20.679 In a world where you've got Elon Musk reprogramming artificial 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:28.560 intelligence programs in order to reflect his not so mainstream politics, 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:30.520 then all of a sudden, you know, you've got even 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.760 more reasons why people are going to question anything they read, 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:39.040 anything they hear, anything they see. And so this moment 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:46.200 here where Maga is essentially not wanting basically not wanting 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:52.360 to accept what Trump's government is telling them, this should 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.199 be this should be the moment that everybody takes a 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:58.040 step back and says, oh my god, what have we done? 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:01.920 What have we done to the the information ecosystem we 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.439 have now? You know, I think it's perfectly reasonable now 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.920 for most folks to assume that Trump is bullshitting first, 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:12.840 and the truth is somewhere. You're going to have to 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.680 hope for seven different reports to figure out the truth 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:20.200 that everything is sort of you know, this is the way. 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.400 By the way the American information ecosystem worked in the 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:27.480 nineteenth century. Nineteenth century wasn't such a good century for 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.319 us politically. We were divided the entire time. You know, 0:10:30.640 --> 0:10:32.960 there was at one point a storming of the capital, 0:10:33.440 --> 0:10:35.760 storming of the capital city in Washington, DC, based on 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.760 some bizarre conspiracy about the pope. This is in the 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.120 eighteen fifties. This was before the start of the Civil War. 0:10:42.320 --> 0:10:50.199 So the America the nineteenth century, which was in many ways, 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:56.240 had a information, a daily information ecosystem that was very unsteady. 0:10:56.240 --> 0:11:00.760 Trust me, go do some research in old archives and 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:05.320 read news stories about events that we now know what happened. 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.840 And then you read during there would be all sorts 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:14.120 of partisan takes and every city had their own politically 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:18.000 aligned news organization. Frankly, it's very similar to what the 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:21.760 last ten years have looked like on cable news or 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.000 what you've seen on social media and sometimes what you've 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:27.920 see and now in the world of independent media. But 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:34.960 this moment where we don't know was was Dan Bongino 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.199 lying to you then or lying to you now? It's 0:11:38.240 --> 0:11:40.280 Cash Betel lying to you then or lying to you now. 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:42.080 It's Pam Bondi lying to you then or lying to 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.400 you now she lying They lied to you at some point. 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:51.760 And what you've created is is not an information you 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:54.360 know is now we're in a We're living in a 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:56.040 world where you just don't know what the truth is. 0:11:56.600 --> 0:12:00.480 This is life in Russia. Talk to or Russian somebody 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.440 who lives in Moscow who's not a Putin fan and 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:05.079 ask them, how do you know? What's you know? What 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:07.160 do you believe? And they're like, it's hard to know 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:09.679 what to believe. This is what life is like many 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.960 times in the Middle East, and the way the media 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:19.120 is sort of both consumed and interpreted, lots of skepticism. 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:23.920 Nobody believes anything. And by the way, the only people 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:27.160 that benefit from a world where nobody believes anything are 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:30.920 those in power, right, because then they get to manipulate 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:36.720 the information. They're the ones in power. So is this 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:42.560 should be this should be a five alarm fire, right, 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:44.600 this is a moment and we're going to have more 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.280 of these where the government is going to say something 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.440 and literally seventy percent are not going to believe it. 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.560 And we're in a situation with Epstein. And look, there's 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:54.680 partisan reasons for it. 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:54.920 Right. 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:58.120 You have those on the left, they're convinced that there 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.120 is something there in Trump's just a frame of how 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:04.200 many times he shows up in the so called Epstein files. 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.320 There's those on the right that believe that that maybe, well, 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.600 they're covering something up. Maybe it is not about Trump, 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:14.880 but maybe it's about somebody else in the quote elite 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:17.360 ecosystem that just happens to be on the right side 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:22.040 rather than on the left side. But when you stoke 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:25.920 conspiracies and automatically assume there's a conspiracy and then you 0:13:25.960 --> 0:13:29.280 get power, and then you realize the truth, and then 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:32.000 you realize you don't know how to release the truth. 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:34.719 You don't know where to put it where people will 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:39.760 believe it. And right now, I mean the number two person, 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:41.840 the number one and number two people at the FBI, 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.640 how are we supposed to believe anything they have to say? 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.000 The Attorney General, how are you supposed to believe anything 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:53.240 she says? So this is real crisis. I mean, you know, 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.240 in the short term, arguably the president probably ought to 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:01.920 fire all three of these folks, because if you don't 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:06.640 have the if the public isn't going to believe what 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.720 you have to say in law enforcement, you're in trouble. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.880 You're completely inoperable as ahead of a law enforcement agency. 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:18.120 So now perhaps those three just had to take the fall. 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:23.040 But look, there's reason for the phrase you reput yourself 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:27.000 and this is a classic case of that. But instead 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:30.120 of dunking on them, this is you know, this is 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.440 why I'm here, This is why I want to rebuild 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.560 the local news ecosystem. We need to rebuild mainstream media. 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:40.360 We need to rebuild trust because too many partisan hacks 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:46.280 like Dan Bongino and others have systematically helped accelerate distrust 0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.280 and purposely did it in order to gain power. And 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:51.840 you can sit here and say, isn't it rich that 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.800 now that they're in power, they're not believed. Well, they 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.840 did it. They did it to themselves, but more importantly, 0:14:57.880 --> 0:14:59.680 they've done it to all of us, and they've done 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.920 it to the country, and they're doing it to the government. Look, 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:07.880 the government has earned its distrust the Iraq War. Just 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.720 look at the last twenty five years, right, no WMD, 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:16.600 the financial crisis, nobody held accountable, government did shit, did 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.080 squat right. Not a single banker, not a single person 0:15:20.120 --> 0:15:23.520 that took down the entire world economy was held accountable 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:29.640 for their actions. COVID happens upon that after the fact, 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:33.360 and only adds to it the Russia investigation. All of 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:38.840 these things that were not fully that were you know, 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:42.400 in some ways manipulated, in some ways you had misinformers 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:46.240 trying to get involved. But it doesn't matter. It created 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:51.440 an environment of distrust that was built on two particular issues. 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:55.000 Where that distrust was was was earned right, And then 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.040 I'd go back to the core one that I brought up, 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:00.560 which is the government took sixty two years to finally 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:03.160 admit that it had a file in that the CIA 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:08.760 was following Oswald. So it is obviously government did this 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:12.000 to themselves. But the but the people that have tried 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:18.400 to benefit have tried to essentially profit off of this. 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.040 You know, they're they're they're the they're on the I mean, 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.960 at least they're the ones having to deliver this message 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.200 and they're watching their reputations with with their right wing 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:33.880 conspiracy friends go down the train. But again, if this 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.680 were a functional presidential administration that was not sort of 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:39.600 the way it operates right where it's just on the 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.239 whims of one person. But if this were an administration 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.880 that did care about whether the public was going to 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:48.040 believe its law enforcement agencies, all three of these people 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:55.400 would be fired tonight, Bondi, Patel and Bongino because they're 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.960 just they've they've been they're too toxic. They're two points 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:03.920 I it is, I go back, why should anybody believe 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:09.320 anything they say? And they did it to themselves, all right. 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:12.440 I want to pivot here to a topic I touched 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.080 on a little bit about Elon Musk and third parties. 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:16.879 So a little bit of what I wrote about in 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:19.639 my substack piece this week as well. You can go 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.800 read the fuller version of this, because look, this is 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:26.200 a theme I want to say, Hey, Elon Musk, welcome 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.000 to the party. Right, this is a theme I wrote 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.200 two months ago. I've been talking about here a lot. 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:32.399 I do think the two party system is on the 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.520 brink of collapsing, and if it does, it's actually could 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:36.159 be very healthy. 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:36.359 Right. 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:40.200 If we want to rebuild this democracy, a functional democracy 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.960 for the twenty first century, we need to create us 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.840 the condition so that we can be a multi party country. 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.959 In fact, I just had an interesting conversation for a 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:54.399 for an episode of my new sphere show that'll be 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.560 coming out in a couple of weeks with the head 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:01.280 of the George Washington Presidential Library, And you know, she 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.240 was telling me that the founders, you know, whether it 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.240 was Hamilton Adams all, you know, they knew parties were 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:10.520 going to form, but the assumption wasn' be factions, that 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.080 there'd be multiple parties. They really thought it would operate 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.480 a bit more like the UK, even though we were 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:20.000 a parliamentary system, but we did sort of emulate the system. 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.200 And the fact that she put it to me, many 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:24.800 of the founders saw themselves as Whigs, you know at 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:28.480 the time, which was a borrowed essentially a borrowed political 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:34.040 movement from the UK, and the assumption was it would 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.560 be multi party, that it wouldn't it wouldn't sort of 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.399 devolve into what we have, which is this two just 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:43.359 a two party system, And look, the work that it 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:48.040 would take to break it up is is where is 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.439 where you would need rich people to get involved. But 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.119 the fact is, you know what's bothered me about the 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:58.479 coverage of Musk is that it's it's the conversation has 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.400 shifted not towards the vulnerability of the parties, whether whether 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.600 actually there's a market for this, which I believe there is. 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:07.840 I've been making that case for a while, but instead 0:19:07.840 --> 0:19:11.480 it's been focused on him. Right, you know, all things Musk. 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:15.520 I get it right, Musk is sort of sticky all 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.080 that stuff. What's his motive? What's his angle? Is it 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:22.280 a brand play? Is that revenge is at boredom? All right? 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.520 I get it. But I also don't want you to 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:28.639 dismiss anything Musk is up to just by saying, well, 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:32.360 you know, look what he did with Twitter, because you know, 0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.200 the blind squirrel finds an acorn a stop clock is 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:38.520 right twice, and Elon Musk is right right. Our two 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.760 party system doesn't fit the moment because right now both 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:47.200 parties our cultural are stitched together in culture. Neither the 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.720 Democratic Party of the Republican Party. It's held together by 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:53.840 any sort of coherent ideology. The glue is cultural identity, 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:58.680 economic policy, foreign policy, institutional theory. These are all fractures 0:19:58.680 --> 0:19:59.800 within both of these parties. 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:00.000 Now. 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:02.760 Right on the Democratic side, you've got a growing divide 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:07.399 over capitalism itself. Democratic socialists like Zorn Mamdani and others 0:20:07.400 --> 0:20:10.480 are openly questioning whether the system can even be salvaged. 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:13.720 And they're not on the fringe anymore. They have momentum, 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.040 they have organizing power, and they have a sharp critique 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.240 of both Wall Street and Washington. On the right, the 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:21.080 old Reagan coalition is just simply gone. The Party of 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.880 Free Markets and Globalization has morphed into a party skeptical 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:28.200 of trade, allergic immigration, isolationists. In his worldview, you've got 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.439 the Mago wing on one side and what's left of 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:32.679 that Chamber of Commerce crowd on the other trying to 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.480 hang on. So if ideology isn't binding, these parties together. 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:39.080 What is well we know it is it's cultural grievance, 0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:41.639 tribal loyalty, fear the other side. And that's the problem 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.240 because that kind of glue is very brittle, doesn't hold 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:48.440 under pressure. It makes people dig in deeper. But it's 0:20:48.520 --> 0:20:51.600 also the vulnerability as to why I think a third 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:54.320 and fourth party could come up and if we had, 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:59.040 if ballid access were fair, and again I do think 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.200 that there is not equal access, and I think it's 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.320 a violation of the Constitution. I think these ballot access 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:08.639 rules that favor the two major parties over minor parties 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:13.480 in each states are unconstitutional and probably ought to collectively 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.159 be challenged in a smarter and better way. An interesting 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.240 use of elon musks of money, by the way, But 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.200 the fact of the matter is we've got we've got 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:22.919 a country that would be a lot more comfortable in 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:26.520 four parties. A populist nationalist right, a pro business center right, 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:31.160 a progressive economic justice left, and a liberal institutionalist center 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:35.359 left right. That is the four sort of groups of voters, 0:21:35.400 --> 0:21:37.399 and they are about twenty twenty, twenty and twenty with 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:41.000 another twenty percent of the country just all over the place. 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:47.119 So those factions are there. The voters are there, but 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:50.119 they've been awkwardly stuffed into this binary system that no 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:52.960 longer fits. And that's why we get this dysfunction. That's 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:54.960 why we get the performative politics, and that's why we 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.600 get loyalty tests instead of policy debates. So I want 0:21:58.640 --> 0:22:01.639 to be clear, the demand for a real alternative is there. 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:06.199 The market exists. What's missing is infrastructure and patience. So 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:11.760 just because Elon Musk's is involved, don't just dismiss it 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:13.920 because you you know, he'll lose interest and he'll do 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:15.760 all that you know, and he'll make bad decisions and 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:18.880 all those things are true. Right, maybe he's smart enough 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:21.600 to let somebody else do it, and that's going to 0:22:21.640 --> 0:22:26.800 be something I'm looking for. But the fact is it's possible, 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.080 and I just wouldn't dismiss dismiss this moment. I think 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.040 we've never been I don't think the two parties collectively 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:38.760 have been this week in a long long time, because 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.439 neither party is stitched together in policy. They're only stitched 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:44.479 together on identity and feared if you could break that, 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:47.639 the volatility could end up breaking the two parties. So 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:51.280 while I'm very skeptical that Musk is going to follow through, 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:56.080 but if he does. If he does, there is a 0:22:56.119 --> 0:23:00.520 path for him. He is something few others have in 0:23:00.640 --> 0:23:05.800 this goal to start a third party. He's got money. 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:09.080 Ross Bureau was filthy rich, and that's what helped him 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:10.679 get on the ballot. He used it in the nineties 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:12.960 to break through the ballot access wall. He built a 0:23:13.000 --> 0:23:15.840 political party. Musk could do the same. He could build 0:23:15.840 --> 0:23:18.080 the infrastructure and if he wanted to play the long game, 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:22.000 not just make headlines, he could actually reshape the party 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:25.959 infrastructure for decades to come. So if he is interested 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:29.000 in doing this, and if I were advising him politically, 0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:30.880 I'd say this number one, don't try to create one 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:33.680 centrist party. Create two. A center right party, say in 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:36.080 the state of Texas, and a center left vehicle stay 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:38.280 in the state of Florida. Those are my two test cases. 0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:41.040 Use those two states as your test markets. Thank you 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:44.960 for yourself as sort of a startup right because if 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:47.640 it works in those two places, it's going to work everywhere. 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:49.720 And those two places, why do I pick there? Because 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:54.720 the ruling party is dominant, but it's internally divided. Texas 0:23:54.800 --> 0:23:58.480 is divided between sort of that John Cornyn institutionalist wing 0:23:58.520 --> 0:24:02.119 and the ken packstif Magna win, what an opportunity for 0:24:02.200 --> 0:24:05.119 Musk right now to go get build an infrastructure that 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:07.240 John Cornyn could run in as a third party candidate 0:24:07.760 --> 0:24:10.399 and probably win in a three way or four way race. 0:24:10.840 --> 0:24:15.160 And in Florida you have a divided Republican party there 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:18.280 is somewhat it's a little more personality divide, very loyal 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:22.560 to Trump, distrustful of There's not a lot of love 0:24:22.600 --> 0:24:25.200 these days. For DeSantis, it's more of a personality issue. 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:29.560 But there's a large independent population and a fractured Democratic 0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:33.400 party that's kind of broken, but a center left independent 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:38.119 that's interesting. So the point is is that both you 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:41.439 have two big states that would be very expensive. But 0:24:41.880 --> 0:24:45.080 if you're Musk, money is no issue, and I think 0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:46.560 it's the two best proving grounds. 0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:46.960 Now. 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:49.080 His goal is to see if he can elect three 0:24:49.160 --> 0:24:51.520 or four independent senators right to become sort of the 0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:54.720 majority makers of Senate control. So if you're going to 0:24:54.760 --> 0:24:57.399 go down that, this would be the states that I 0:24:57.400 --> 0:24:59.600 would be targeting first. So I gave you my Florida 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:03.080 and Texas big examples. So you obviously need more than 0:25:03.119 --> 0:25:05.919 just two targets. The next two places I'd be targeting 0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:09.520 if I were him, would be Maine in Alaska. Both 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:13.239 states have a history of electing independent candidates. There's an 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:17.120 independently elected senators in both states right now, Murkowski one 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:20.560 not because she was outside the Republican Party structure, and 0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:23.920 Angus King and Maine one outside the Democratic Party structure. 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:27.120 Perhaps Susan Collins, who's not very popular inside her own 0:25:27.119 --> 0:25:30.800 Republican party these days. Maybe she would take the third 0:25:30.880 --> 0:25:33.359 route on that and he could get her to become 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:35.160 a member of his party. You know, you can get 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:39.720 that quickly. The point is that both states also have 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:43.720 easier ballot access laws. They're both ranked choice voting states, 0:25:44.160 --> 0:25:47.639 so there is almost an openness and it allows you 0:25:47.720 --> 0:25:50.320 to do this. So again, two places to do. Michigan 0:25:50.400 --> 0:25:52.800 is another place. There's going to be a very competitive 0:25:52.800 --> 0:25:54.960 three way governor's race thanks to Mike Duggan, the former 0:25:55.000 --> 0:25:57.360 mayor of Detroit, running as an independent for governor. Well, 0:25:57.359 --> 0:26:00.439 if you have a highly contested three way race for governor, 0:26:00.840 --> 0:26:03.720 easy to create the conditions to make the Senate race, 0:26:03.760 --> 0:26:06.360 which is an open seat. Gary Peters, the Democratic senator 0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:09.360 not seeking reelection there's going to be a Democratic primary 0:26:09.400 --> 0:26:14.600 there of interest, and then some going to probably not 0:26:14.720 --> 0:26:17.679 be a Republican primary. We'll see Mike Rodgers, who lost 0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:19.560 in twenty twenty four, is going to run again as 0:26:19.600 --> 0:26:24.040 a Republican nominee. So you could find a third party candidate, 0:26:24.200 --> 0:26:26.880 be cut and basically ride the codetails of the governor's race. 0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:29.760 Then the four other states that I would be looking 0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:34.720 at where there are divides on Republican philosophy are in Ohio, Kansas, Nebraska, 0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:37.719 and Iowa. Me take Kansas, Nebraska, and Iowa together. These 0:26:37.720 --> 0:26:41.240 are the farm states. These states are getting hit extraordinarily 0:26:41.240 --> 0:26:44.439 hard on the tariff war, and the trade war is 0:26:44.520 --> 0:26:49.920 going to make people poor, particularly Republican voters poor. In 0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:55.280 those three states, there's opportunity. It fits Musk's ideology of 0:26:55.359 --> 0:26:59.080 sort of center right, pro business, pro trade. I think 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:01.240 the opening is there any of those states. We already 0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:04.120 see there's an independent candidate in Dan Osborne running against 0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:09.240 Pete Ricketts. Osborne's worldview is probably further afield than where 0:27:09.320 --> 0:27:12.080 Musk is. He maybe actually is pro tariff as Trump 0:27:12.080 --> 0:27:16.480 on some things, but we've seen Osborne have some success. 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:18.800 It's a weak Democratic Party in Nebraska, so you could 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:24.080 see that. Throw a third party, a third independent, a 0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:26.520 second independent candidate in Nebraska, and suddenly you have a 0:27:26.600 --> 0:27:30.600 very interesting three way race and it creates what Musk 0:27:30.600 --> 0:27:33.439 claims he wants, which is a potential check on the 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:36.640 MAGA majority, if you will. And then there's Ohio right 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:38.879 where you have a real divide between sort of the 0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:42.760 institutionalist wing think Mike DeWine and the MAGA wing like 0:27:42.880 --> 0:27:47.280 Vivik Ramaswami and JD Vance. You've got a Democratic party 0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:51.040 that's struggling with its brand, but it's fairly competitive, especially 0:27:51.040 --> 0:27:54.840 if Shared Brown or Tim Ryan ends up running. But 0:27:54.960 --> 0:27:57.640 I think you could go a long way. I think 0:27:57.680 --> 0:28:01.320 some of their success is winning over some voters who 0:28:01.400 --> 0:28:03.880 normally wouldn't be Shared Brown voters, but they can't stomach 0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:10.640 supporting MAGA. That's the constituency that Musk his center right 0:28:10.640 --> 0:28:14.240 party could so it's another testing ground. And then two 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:16.720 other states I might throw in in senate races. You 0:28:16.760 --> 0:28:19.000 have the open seat in Kentucky. He's already going to 0:28:19.000 --> 0:28:21.680 probably spend some money helping Thomas Massey out in the 0:28:21.760 --> 0:28:22.680 Kentucky house race. 0:28:22.720 --> 0:28:22.880 There. 0:28:23.000 --> 0:28:25.560 Ran Paul is certainly no maga guy. So I do 0:28:25.600 --> 0:28:28.119 think there could be an environment and interest of an 0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:32.879 alternative to the Maga Republican Party in Kentucky and then Colorado. 0:28:33.280 --> 0:28:35.280 While John Hickenloop is not somebody that I think is 0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:38.200 very vulnerable, Colorado is a state. It's kind of a 0:28:38.200 --> 0:28:41.800 weak Republican party these days. It's a state where he 0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:45.040 could get some traction with a third party that, even 0:28:45.080 --> 0:28:48.320 if you don't win the race, just getting over ten 0:28:48.440 --> 0:28:51.440 percent in any of these places could get you semi 0:28:51.440 --> 0:28:55.040 permanent status for the next election, i e. The presidential election. 0:28:55.200 --> 0:28:58.000 So that would be the path I would advise him. 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.200 He doesn't take advice very well. But if that is 0:29:01.240 --> 0:29:03.080 what you were looking to do as a third party, 0:29:03.120 --> 0:29:06.040 to both be disruptive and to find places you could 0:29:06.040 --> 0:29:12.320 actually win, that's where I'd be focused Texas, Florida, Maine, Alaska, Michigan, Ohio, Kansas, Nebraska, 0:29:12.360 --> 0:29:17.560 and Iowa, with maybe Kentucky and maybe Colorado throwing bones there. 0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:21.240 When do it everywhere, focus there, you might win two 0:29:21.400 --> 0:29:23.400 or three of those races. Because I think things are 0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:27.280 I just think this electorate just think it's a bit 0:29:27.400 --> 0:29:32.520 more unsettled, all right, Yes, midterms more or less operata 0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:35.840 as a referendum on the incumbent party. But I just 0:29:35.920 --> 0:29:39.720 think this is going to be a very volatile electorate, 0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:43.360 so keep an eye on it. And look, I am 0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:45.800 somebody who believes if we can actually break up the 0:29:45.880 --> 0:29:50.240 duopoly create a healthy four party system, you may need 0:29:50.280 --> 0:29:53.080 some money, like from people like Elon Musk in order 0:29:53.160 --> 0:29:58.760 to in order to pursue, in order to succeed sort 0:29:58.800 --> 0:30:01.520 of breaking these barriers. If he's willing to spend his 0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:05.000 money but take a step back in his personality, the 0:30:05.080 --> 0:30:10.160 possibilities are really there. And look, it's it's I'm one 0:30:10.160 --> 0:30:12.640 of those who believes a two party system isn't bending anymore. 0:30:12.880 --> 0:30:15.320 It's calcified, and if we want to fix it, we 0:30:15.440 --> 0:30:17.920 need we may need a break for both parties. All right, 0:30:18.000 --> 0:30:20.520 I'll sneak at a break and when we come back, a 0:30:20.560 --> 0:30:24.920 fun conversation with my friends from Boston politics and Boston media, 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:38.320 Jim and Marjorie. So for over a decade, every Thursday, 0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:42.600 I've made an appearance on Boston Public Radio w GBH, 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:47.880 the Jim and Marjorie Show. And now that I have 0:30:47.960 --> 0:30:50.840 a podcast, I realized I have never been able to 0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:54.960 flip the script on them, and instead of them peppering 0:30:55.000 --> 0:30:58.400 me with questions and basically trying to goad me to 0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:01.400 end my career in some sort of viral moment in 0:31:01.440 --> 0:31:04.440 the Boston media market, I want to try to present 0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:09.360 them with the same opportunity. And you know what I 0:31:09.360 --> 0:31:12.720 was doing the mathire guys. I realized, I've been doing 0:31:12.720 --> 0:31:15.440 this over ten years, and then are you have you 0:31:15.440 --> 0:31:20.040 guys been doing this for thirty years close together since 0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:21.160 nineteen ninety nine. 0:31:21.680 --> 0:31:24.320 We've been doing radios for twenty six years, six years, 0:31:24.360 --> 0:31:26.600 and we did an under the radar television show that 0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:29.200 absolutely nobody watched for a bunch of years before that. 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:31.360 When I say nobody, I don't mean nobody. 0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:35.880 I mean nobody watched this television show, not even our 0:31:35.920 --> 0:31:37.760 pounds watching television show. 0:31:38.120 --> 0:31:40.280 One of my first shows was a cable access show. 0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:42.680 I know it should talk about those. That's how you learned, 0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:43.440 That's how. 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:44.560 You learn, That's how we learned. 0:31:44.760 --> 0:31:45.240 That's right. 0:31:45.280 --> 0:31:47.480 When I was at the Hotline. We started a show 0:31:47.520 --> 0:31:50.320 in ninety eight or ninety nine on a cable access 0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:52.600 that was only available on like one of the cable 0:31:52.880 --> 0:31:57.320 systems in DC. And it was and the channel itself 0:31:57.400 --> 0:32:01.360 was owned by some looney tune widow who was sort 0:32:01.360 --> 0:32:04.200 of like crazy right wing, was willing to fund this 0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:08.080 channel and they just needed a film programming. And I 0:32:08.120 --> 0:32:11.560 remember our pre the guy who who was our the 0:32:11.600 --> 0:32:16.480 show that preceded us, Billy Bush, oh before Billy Bush 0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:20.160 made it like he was scrabbing Billy Bush. Yes, yes, god, 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:22.640 you know he was a local DC DJ. 0:32:23.160 --> 0:32:23.760 I didn't know. 0:32:23.800 --> 0:32:25.600 But but it's funny. You guys have been in this 0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:28.440 business a long time, you know, we we've all we 0:32:28.440 --> 0:32:30.640 were all experimenting in the late nineties, and now we're 0:32:30.640 --> 0:32:33.680 all kind of re experimenting again. You guys have shifted 0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:36.600 to a YouTube format from public radio a little bit, 0:32:36.600 --> 0:32:39.480 and obviously still doing public radio. I'm doing what I'm doing. 0:32:39.520 --> 0:32:43.680 But in some ways, the more things change, the more 0:32:43.720 --> 0:32:46.680 they stay the same, right, I hope. 0:32:46.680 --> 0:32:48.920 So I don't I don't know where journalism is going. 0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:52.080 I get you know, these are tough times for the business, 0:32:52.120 --> 0:32:54.440 and I'm nervous about it. You know, people that have 0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:58.480 their kids in college now say tell me about journalism, 0:32:58.520 --> 0:32:59.520 and I don't know what to tell them. 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:01.640 Chuck, is it so different? 0:33:01.680 --> 0:33:03.560 You know you don't even know this, Chuck Todd, But 0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:06.000 you are part of a quote. We have a feature 0:33:06.120 --> 0:33:08.240 on Friday on our show, one of our segments called 0:33:08.560 --> 0:33:11.200 press Play. We started about I don't know three months ago, 0:33:11.720 --> 0:33:15.480 and I ask every guest the same question every week, 0:33:15.640 --> 0:33:18.160 and it goes like this, I said, a couple of 0:33:18.160 --> 0:33:20.120 months ago. Marty Baron, form writer of The Boss and 0:33:20.160 --> 0:33:22.440 Globe and the Washington Post, was on our show. A 0:33:22.520 --> 0:33:25.120 day later, Chuck Toddho's with Us every Thursday was on 0:33:25.160 --> 0:33:28.440 our show. And it was right after Ruth Marcus had 0:33:28.600 --> 0:33:31.440 not only had her problem with the bosses of the 0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:33.840 Washington Post, but had been honest enough to write in 0:33:33.920 --> 0:33:36.720 a long piece in The New Yorker that at least 0:33:36.720 --> 0:33:38.560 on two of her columns, one of which I think 0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:41.000 was about Bezos who owns the Washington Post, one of 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:43.720 which I think was about Trump, where she admitted she 0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:47.160 pulled back from what she was going to say. And 0:33:47.240 --> 0:33:49.120 we asked, Marty Baron, do you know any about the 0:33:49.200 --> 0:33:53.120 Washington Post reporters, not editorialists, who are even if it's 0:33:55.160 --> 0:33:58.320 not truly intentional or pulling back a little. He said, 0:33:58.360 --> 0:34:00.800 absolutely not. We asked you the same question and you said, yes, 0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:04.120 that there were people at NBC. That's What really worries 0:34:04.160 --> 0:34:07.160 me that people with good intentions who are worried about 0:34:07.160 --> 0:34:10.680 their boss, worried about their own career, are not trying 0:34:10.719 --> 0:34:14.239 to be unprincipled, but maybe doing things that are unprincipled 0:34:14.560 --> 0:34:16.040 in the spirit of self preservation. 0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:17.560 I hope I'm wrong. I hope you're wrong. 0:34:18.560 --> 0:34:22.000 I hope so too. And yet you know, I understand 0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:24.640 it's human nature, right, some of this, right, which is 0:34:24.680 --> 0:34:27.200 you're trying to You think, well, if I can just 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:29.279 survive the storm in the moment, then I can do 0:34:30.000 --> 0:34:32.160 Then I can you know, if I can stay in 0:34:32.200 --> 0:34:35.160 the room, you know, it'll it'll help in the long run, 0:34:35.880 --> 0:34:38.720 you know. And we're I mean, you know, the rationalization 0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:43.320 for why you compromise a principle or compromise an ethic, 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:46.319 right like, and it makes sense until it doesn't, right, 0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:50.719 until you've twisted yourself into a pretzel. And so I 0:34:50.719 --> 0:34:53.840 don't know, But Marjorie, it's interesting you don't. Here's the 0:34:53.840 --> 0:34:56.560 way I give hope on journalism. Okay, so young journalists, 0:34:56.640 --> 0:34:59.520 I say, well, because I got my start in nineteen 0:34:59.600 --> 0:35:03.000 ninety two, which was a time of terrible transition for 0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:06.600 legacy media at the time. Right, you had newspaper consolidation. 0:35:07.000 --> 0:35:09.799 It was the beginning of the cable boom. Broadcast TV 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:12.120 was pulling back. It was very similar to this, and 0:35:12.200 --> 0:35:14.759 then O. J. Simpson happened, and then the rise of 0:35:14.800 --> 0:35:19.880 cable with internet as almost like an accelerant with it helped. 0:35:20.400 --> 0:35:23.320 But it was a disruptive time, and as a young person, 0:35:23.800 --> 0:35:25.799 I got a lot of opportunity that I wouldn't have 0:35:25.840 --> 0:35:28.760 gotten if it hadn't been a disruptive time. So I do. 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:31.240 That's how I give hope to younger journalists. 0:35:31.280 --> 0:35:33.800 Okay, you want to hear my serious give hope to 0:35:33.840 --> 0:35:37.480 younger journalism thing. What I usually say to people is. 0:35:37.680 --> 0:35:39.280 We should say you were a big time columns. 0:35:41.000 --> 0:35:42.920 I was a newspaper report and most of the people 0:35:42.920 --> 0:35:45.400 on talk radio in Boston come from newspaper, not you, 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:46.919 But I did. 0:35:46.920 --> 0:35:49.080 And would you say, this is two big chapters you've 0:35:49.080 --> 0:35:51.520 had in journalism. One was print and one was radio. 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:52.920 Is that how you put it, Marjorie? 0:35:53.120 --> 0:35:55.719 Well, I did print until just a few years ago. 0:35:55.840 --> 0:35:58.240 So I've been a newspaper person most. 0:35:58.080 --> 0:35:58.560 Of my life. 0:35:58.600 --> 0:36:01.080 And I added on the radio, you know, I'm a 0:36:01.120 --> 0:36:03.400 divorce a and I needed the two jobs. 0:36:03.440 --> 0:36:05.680 I was just going to say it's whatever. Print journalists. 0:36:05.800 --> 0:36:08.120 Why did print journalists move to another medium? 0:36:08.280 --> 0:36:08.440 Yeah? 0:36:08.560 --> 0:36:11.840 Never, because the other mediums better. We all know writings better. 0:36:12.160 --> 0:36:14.680 Writing is the best of the mediums, right, you never 0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:17.319 it yet? But why do you do other mediums? 0:36:17.560 --> 0:36:21.000 It's money, money, yeah, But I tell the young journalists. 0:36:21.640 --> 0:36:23.960 Gay Talise was a great writer. He wrote for the 0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:26.000 New York Times. He wrote for a lot of places. 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:27.920 He wrote novels and books. But he wrote something called 0:36:27.920 --> 0:36:30.360 The Kingdom and the Power about the New York Times 0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:33.600 years ago, maybe thirty thirty five years ago, and he 0:36:33.680 --> 0:36:39.160 talked about how becoming a reporter enables young people, kids 0:36:39.200 --> 0:36:43.240 from you know, middle class backgrounds, working class backgrounds like Talise. 0:36:43.840 --> 0:36:45.680 Maybe they didn't go to the best schools, but they 0:36:45.680 --> 0:36:48.759 can go become a newspaper reporter and they can meet 0:36:48.800 --> 0:36:51.320 people and talk and ask questions to people. 0:36:51.080 --> 0:36:54.520 They would never get a chance and any other opportunity. 0:36:54.480 --> 0:36:58.880 Presidents, governors, mayors of cities, celebrities, to be able to 0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:01.520 cover trials and fam as people. And I think that's 0:37:01.560 --> 0:37:03.240 so true, and I think of when I look back 0:37:03.480 --> 0:37:07.279 in newspapers what I got to do, and in radio too, 0:37:07.320 --> 0:37:09.640 but in newspapers because you had to actually go to 0:37:09.719 --> 0:37:12.600 the scene. I got experiences that I would never ever 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:16.560 have gotten working anywhere else. I think being a reporter 0:37:17.000 --> 0:37:19.240 is one of the great jobs of all time. And plus, 0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:23.800 you know, you could actually make a difference in people's lives. 0:37:23.800 --> 0:37:26.279 And I think that that that's kind of neat. 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:32.240 You've Marjorie, You've worked all over New England, big markets 0:37:32.239 --> 0:37:33.319 in small markets. 0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:35.280 Is it? 0:37:35.360 --> 0:37:38.720 You know it? I sort of live in this fantasy 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:41.839 world that I that it is ultimately as a as 0:37:41.840 --> 0:37:44.480 a newspaper reporter, economist, that it is better to be 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:46.480 the big fish in the small pond. You really can 0:37:46.520 --> 0:37:49.680 have bigger impact locally than trying to have you know, 0:37:49.719 --> 0:37:52.520 Bob Woodward like impact nationally. Yeah, is that is that 0:37:52.560 --> 0:37:53.200 your experience? 0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:55.280 I think I think. 0:37:55.120 --> 0:37:58.400 That's probably true. You know, I spent most of my 0:37:58.440 --> 0:38:02.359 life working for the tabloid in town. Uh my former 0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:04.239 husband worked for the Globe and they, you know, we 0:38:04.239 --> 0:38:05.120 were so I'm so old. 0:38:05.120 --> 0:38:06.080 They had a nepotism rule. 0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:08.800 You that's quite the mixed marriage, right, It was a 0:38:09.440 --> 0:38:13.600 mixed people have Jews and Catholics exactly exactly. 0:38:13.719 --> 0:38:15.920 I just say that, so people, don't you know know 0:38:16.000 --> 0:38:17.239 that I could have been at the Globe, but I 0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:18.600 wasn't at the Globe, you see, I just say that 0:38:18.640 --> 0:38:23.000 to make myself puff myself up. But but but the 0:38:23.080 --> 0:38:26.160 point is that, you know, you write something about somebody 0:38:26.239 --> 0:38:30.239 that got really screwed in some way, and this is 0:38:30.280 --> 0:38:32.880 the working class, blue collar paper was in all the courtrooms, 0:38:32.920 --> 0:38:35.719 all the subways, all the buses. You wrote something with 0:38:35.760 --> 0:38:37.839 someone that got screwed, and it would matter, you know, 0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:40.279 that the checks would come in, or the phone calls 0:38:40.320 --> 0:38:43.440 would come in, or the head of Charlie Baker. 0:38:43.480 --> 0:38:44.640 I remember he called me. 0:38:44.760 --> 0:38:46.759 When he used to be an administrator in the in 0:38:46.760 --> 0:38:49.720 the Weld administration, called me and said, you know, uh, 0:38:49.760 --> 0:38:50.799 I'm going to fix. 0:38:50.600 --> 0:38:51.480 This, you know. 0:38:51.640 --> 0:38:54.200 And I did a lot of stories about child welfare, 0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:57.000 which is no one wants to read those cases. So 0:38:57.040 --> 0:38:59.719 it's it's a it's a wonderful, wonderful job. I would 0:38:59.800 --> 0:39:01.960 never ever want to do anything else and be a 0:39:02.000 --> 0:39:04.439 newspaper reporter because of that. 0:39:04.760 --> 0:39:06.719 Well, you know, in all fairness, Chuck, I think we 0:39:06.800 --> 0:39:09.160 have to add when Marjorie saying, you know, writing about 0:39:09.200 --> 0:39:11.520 people who got screwed, one of the people who Marjorie 0:39:11.560 --> 0:39:14.840 knows got screwed because of one of her columns. 0:39:14.480 --> 0:39:15.680 Was me I was doing. 0:39:16.520 --> 0:39:20.200 I was doing a ballot question in nineteen ninety against 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:20.680 the woman. 0:39:20.840 --> 0:39:22.759 This is how you guys? Met is this how you guys? 0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:27.120 We're not sure you doesn't remember I made question impression. 0:39:27.120 --> 0:39:28.160 He doesn't even remember a. 0:39:28.120 --> 0:39:30.760 Woman who was the doyen of the tax cutting movement 0:39:30.840 --> 0:39:33.600 master since Barbara Anderson had a question on the ballot 0:39:33.920 --> 0:39:37.320 and I was leading the opposition, and in an attempt 0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:40.120 to throw the vote to Barbara Anderson, Marjorie wrote a 0:39:40.160 --> 0:39:45.440 column saying one the opponent that be me drove a 0:39:45.560 --> 0:39:48.680 Volvo station wagon. I never owned a Valvo station one. 0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:50.759 We did. After the column, I'm not done yet. It 0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:53.200 was two years later. Why don't you tell them what 0:39:53.239 --> 0:39:54.640 you said I wore, Marjorie? 0:39:54.640 --> 0:39:57.200 Why don't you Oh, I said he wore whale pants. 0:39:59.560 --> 0:40:02.399 Yeah in Nantucket, like applying, he's like a vineyard nine. 0:40:03.200 --> 0:40:07.040 So let's not say like Marjorie's career helping me oppressed 0:40:07.200 --> 0:40:08.240 because I was the oppress. 0:40:08.360 --> 0:40:14.640 Ee, yeh, from Cambridge, I know, I know the oppressed oppressed. 0:40:14.680 --> 0:40:17.520 Yeah that's right, from Cambridge. That's right, that's right. 0:40:18.400 --> 0:40:21.560 So Jim, your path to this is is you were 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:25.640 politics really activists at this? I mean you both there's 0:40:25.680 --> 0:40:28.719 two ways into this world, right, what is you know 0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:32.720 starting you know, the small newspaper Falls River right going 0:40:32.760 --> 0:40:38.920 through and there's you know you were on the activism side. 0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:41.880 I'm sure there's so many things. I mean, this is 0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:44.040 why I think your partnership is so good in that 0:40:44.120 --> 0:40:47.120 you had different experiences. In that way you can you 0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:50.680 can attack sort of issues and questions and even media 0:40:50.760 --> 0:40:54.200 coverage from both of those perspectives. What did you think 0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:57.320 of the media when you were an activist. 0:40:57.400 --> 0:41:01.440 That it never treated us as fairly should. 0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:04.120 Like everybody else feels about the media, right, Like, yeah, 0:41:05.120 --> 0:41:05.680 tell you something. 0:41:06.080 --> 0:41:08.520 This is beyond dispute, and this is something that I'm 0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:10.000 going to take to my grave with me. It's nobody's 0:41:10.000 --> 0:41:13.760 fault in I can't even mention because she's. 0:41:13.600 --> 0:41:14.239 Gonna mock me. 0:41:14.640 --> 0:41:17.600 I led what I believe was probably the single largest 0:41:17.640 --> 0:41:20.480 pro taxt rally maybe in the history. 0:41:20.520 --> 0:41:22.160 You wanted to raise everybody's tax. 0:41:23.840 --> 0:41:26.560 So that you jumped into the Boston harbor and pulled 0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:28.520 the tea out. Is that what you're saying. 0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:31.040 I'd say that's a variation on a theme. And unfortunately, 0:41:31.120 --> 0:41:33.080 even though it was the biggest rally ever. It is 0:41:33.080 --> 0:41:35.279 a bad example because it's not the media's fault. You 0:41:35.280 --> 0:41:37.200 know what happened on the exact same day as a rally, 0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:39.759 tim and square And as a result we got to 0:41:39.800 --> 0:41:40.680 paragraph everybody. 0:41:40.920 --> 0:41:42.680 You got to pick which is the lead today. 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:48.120 But one experience that neither of you had, and it 0:41:48.160 --> 0:41:50.520 wasn't just doing politics, because they did do politics. 0:41:50.520 --> 0:41:53.200 You know, ran campaigns, You ran for government. Well, I 0:41:53.280 --> 0:41:55.440 ran for governor for months. No, but that wasn't these stories. 0:41:55.600 --> 0:41:57.520 I ran for governor for a month in nineteen ninety 0:41:58.360 --> 0:42:02.400 but I did run, unfortunately, and won a city council 0:42:02.480 --> 0:42:06.319 seat in Cambridge. And while both of you may mock 0:42:06.440 --> 0:42:09.120 me for that. 0:42:07.960 --> 0:42:11.480 That people's you must have been the conservative let's compared 0:42:11.480 --> 0:42:12.520 to everybody. 0:42:12.640 --> 0:42:14.040 Let me tell you something, it was one of the 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:16.719 most valuable experiences in terms of what we do now. 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:19.399 And even though it's a low level kind of thing. 0:42:19.800 --> 0:42:21.239 When you're on the other side of the fence and 0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:24.799 you're getting screamed at by not screamed abt ask tough 0:42:24.880 --> 0:42:29.760 questions by reporters, scream that by constituents, your one's ability 0:42:29.920 --> 0:42:32.360 to understand what the hell you're doing when you're asking 0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:36.759 the questions is enhanced a millionfold and so well, it 0:42:36.840 --> 0:42:40.080 was a horrible experience in many ways because the people 0:42:40.080 --> 0:42:42.120 in the city Council on Cambridge is sort of believe 0:42:42.160 --> 0:42:44.759 they're in the United States Senate, not in the But 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:46.520 it was really value I wouldn't really say it was 0:42:46.560 --> 0:42:48.480 a really valuable tool in terms of what it is 0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:48.759 we do. 0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:52.640 Now do you worry Jim that let me ask you this, 0:42:52.800 --> 0:42:56.080 would you if you know, if you were knowing what 0:42:56.160 --> 0:42:58.359 you know now, would you still run for office? Would 0:42:58.400 --> 0:43:00.719 you still have tried it? Or do you look at 0:43:00.719 --> 0:43:05.839 how hard it is to sort of not get you know, 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:10.480 pilloried and docksed and all these things, or you know, 0:43:10.560 --> 0:43:13.520 your families get targeted. I mean the Tom Tilli situation. 0:43:13.600 --> 0:43:16.480 I tell people about this one all the time. Now 0:43:16.560 --> 0:43:19.960 now that Tillis chose to retire. You know, he was 0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:22.600 going to vote against Hagseth and he didn't. And one 0:43:22.680 --> 0:43:25.239 of the reasons is his family was getting harassed. It 0:43:25.280 --> 0:43:27.399 wasn't just him, and it was people that hadn't They 0:43:27.400 --> 0:43:29.759 didn't run for office. He ran for office, and he 0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:33.239 just decided to back off of that. The way we 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:37.400 the pugilistic nature of politics today, where there is no 0:43:37.880 --> 0:43:40.880 there seems to be no rules, right, and the elected 0:43:40.880 --> 0:43:45.600 official is seen as a dehumanized figure. How do we 0:43:45.719 --> 0:43:47.880 encourage people like you to run again? You know, how 0:43:47.880 --> 0:43:50.480 would you encourage yourself to run again? Or are you 0:43:50.560 --> 0:43:51.600 kind of fearless about it? 0:43:51.880 --> 0:43:53.680 Well, I'd like I'm fearless about nothing. 0:43:53.719 --> 0:43:55.840 By the way, let me clear about that, to be 0:43:56.600 --> 0:43:59.719 totally honest. But you know I was going to have 0:44:00.000 --> 0:44:02.359 I was going to answer your question by saying, which 0:44:02.400 --> 0:44:04.920 is true? When I did political stuff, particularly against the 0:44:05.040 --> 0:44:09.200 very popular anti text leader, I got death threats all 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:13.200 the time in our earlier career on the radio, death threats. 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:16.280 I mean, I'm not trying to show. 0:44:16.120 --> 0:44:18.320 Braver now, I understand them. I've been getting them for 0:44:18.680 --> 0:44:20.560 a while, and you sort of shrug them off because 0:44:20.680 --> 0:44:24.240 you'll know that is nine percent of them aren't true, right, Differently, 0:44:24.280 --> 0:44:25.959 worry about the one percent is the. 0:44:25.920 --> 0:44:29.880 Kids and the family, the wife, the husband, the kids 0:44:29.880 --> 0:44:32.439 that don't And I don't know what the answer because 0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:34.200 one of the things we talk about a lot on 0:44:34.239 --> 0:44:37.440 the show is how leaderless we are in lots of ways. 0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:39.440 And if one believes one is a person and principle, 0:44:39.480 --> 0:44:41.440 look it up. Believe you'd like to think you'd take 0:44:41.480 --> 0:44:44.000 the opportunity, but I can't answer, honestly say to you 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:46.160 that I'd be willing to do it in this sort 0:44:46.160 --> 0:44:49.200 of environment because it's dangerous in lots of ways. Which 0:44:49.239 --> 0:44:51.880 is I'm almost embarrassed to say those words, but I 0:44:51.920 --> 0:44:54.319 think that's unfortunately. 0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:57.240 Real, Marjorie. This is my biggest concern that we have driven. 0:44:59.600 --> 0:45:01.640 It is such a toxic place that good people are 0:45:01.680 --> 0:45:04.000 fone around. 0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:04.360 Listen. 0:45:04.480 --> 0:45:06.239 I could not agree with you more. 0:45:06.360 --> 0:45:13.480 I can't believe how insane things have gotten. It's really 0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:16.000 bad now. But I think it started to start with 0:45:16.040 --> 0:45:18.080 Obama or did it even start before then? 0:45:18.840 --> 0:45:20.960 You know, it's funny, you could keep going back. I've 0:45:21.000 --> 0:45:24.799 thought about this, right, which is, you know when did 0:45:24.840 --> 0:45:27.600 it start? You know, we could go to New Kngridge, right, 0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:30.960 you could go to the Clintons and then you could say, well, 0:45:31.000 --> 0:45:33.440 it goes back for the Robert Borke. Right, some people 0:45:33.480 --> 0:45:35.279 on the right will bring up Robert Borke and that 0:45:35.280 --> 0:45:38.239 that was a character assassination. You can keep going, but 0:45:38.320 --> 0:45:45.439 we've been slowly increasing the character assassination quotient in politics. Yeah, 0:45:45.840 --> 0:45:48.719 all you know, almost on a steady rise. Right and 0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:52.640 to here we are. You know in what I hope 0:45:52.680 --> 0:45:55.759 is that we can't get that it can't get worse. Well, 0:45:55.960 --> 0:45:56.840 that's my optimism. 0:45:56.960 --> 0:45:58.839 I know this is the dread of local angule as 0:45:58.840 --> 0:46:01.200 Mardie would call it, But don't you think it was? 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:04.280 The Willy Horton ads were a pretty major moment against 0:46:04.280 --> 0:46:06.840 the Caucus. And by the way, I hope people realize 0:46:06.880 --> 0:46:09.719 while they blame it on George H. W. Bush, I 0:46:09.760 --> 0:46:12.600 believe the first person to talk about Willy Horton was 0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:14.520 Al Gore in the primary against. 0:46:14.760 --> 0:46:16.560 Was right and he did it the New York primary. 0:46:17.200 --> 0:46:21.440 John willy Horton was a black guy ken furloughs and 0:46:21.480 --> 0:46:23.799 then ended up going out in a weekend furlough and 0:46:23.920 --> 0:46:27.759 raping a woman. And that was something to Caucus did 0:46:28.200 --> 0:46:31.120 for lifers, would give them these weekend furloughs for good behavior, 0:46:31.480 --> 0:46:32.560 and I think that was the end. 0:46:32.680 --> 0:46:33.000 Was it not? 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:36.640 Well? Then the commercials Willy fort Horton with a who's 0:46:36.640 --> 0:46:38.359 a black man? A close up on his. 0:46:38.520 --> 0:46:40.400 I think the I think the person who made the 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:44.200 was it Floyd Little was the guy's name. I think 0:46:44.200 --> 0:46:46.720 it was an independent. It's one of the first super 0:46:46.760 --> 0:46:48.880 PACs and we didn't call him then that it was 0:46:48.920 --> 0:46:51.640 an independent The actual ad itself was not paid for 0:46:51.680 --> 0:46:55.040 by Bush or the RNC. It was an independent committee. Right, 0:46:55.080 --> 0:46:57.440 it was this there was. But by the way, when 0:46:57.480 --> 0:46:59.279 you watch the ad today, most people would be like, 0:46:59.320 --> 0:47:02.000 really that was contra you're a meeting, like because we 0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:06.040 see such garbage now you know that. But at the 0:47:06.120 --> 0:47:10.200 time it sort of it it crossed the whatever the 0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:13.480 line is, as Bill Hurt said in broadcast News, they 0:47:13.600 --> 0:47:15.880 keep moving the sucker, right, you know, with the line 0:47:15.920 --> 0:47:20.520 whatever this line is. But look, I actually go back 0:47:20.520 --> 0:47:23.799 to Roger Ales and Roger Stone in Nixon and that 0:47:23.960 --> 0:47:29.680 if you actually look, you know, ultimately the entire invention 0:47:30.000 --> 0:47:34.080 of the liberal media phrase liberal media didn't you don't. 0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:37.880 I believe you cannot find liberal media as a phrase 0:47:37.920 --> 0:47:41.840 before nineteen seventy two, and that it was the Watergate coverage. 0:47:41.840 --> 0:47:44.000 It was the initial sort of I don't know if 0:47:44.000 --> 0:47:46.160 it was Buchanan that came up at the line or 0:47:46.200 --> 0:47:48.280 you know, one of the Nixon operatives is or Ales. 0:47:49.080 --> 0:47:52.359 And you know, Roger Als' entire professional career after leaving 0:47:52.440 --> 0:47:57.160 Nixon was about exploiting this concept that the liberal media 0:47:57.200 --> 0:47:59.800 is out to get conservatives, and it began with Richard Nixon. 0:48:00.120 --> 0:48:02.880 And and you know, for me, I look at it, 0:48:02.880 --> 0:48:04.920 it may be that this is the end of the 0:48:05.000 --> 0:48:07.680 long arc. This is the the ultimate and the fact 0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:10.480 that Roger Stone's still alive, right, He's the only one 0:48:10.560 --> 0:48:12.680 left of that Nixon ar are still alive. But these 0:48:12.719 --> 0:48:15.879 were the people, and so many of them are derivatives 0:48:16.440 --> 0:48:18.480 that are left where you know, here they are with 0:48:18.640 --> 0:48:22.640 you know, Roger als built the ecosystem that Donald Trump 0:48:22.680 --> 0:48:26.319 exploited to sort of finally right every wrong that they 0:48:26.320 --> 0:48:28.920 believe happened to Nixon. So I kind of think this 0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:32.240 is the endpoint of that. But that's just the thesis 0:48:32.280 --> 0:48:33.320 I've been working on lately. 0:48:33.520 --> 0:48:35.239 You know, Can I get back to one thing you asked, 0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:37.759 you know about running for office kind of thing. With 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:40.560 all the scary stuff that's happening, how about the flip side. 0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:42.000 I don't know if we've ever talked to you about this. 0:48:42.400 --> 0:48:48.160 I continued to be amazed that that other than the. 0:48:48.600 --> 0:48:53.160 For example, let's take senators, Republican senators who probably can't 0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:55.200 read a stop sign, you know, like a Tuberville or 0:48:55.200 --> 0:48:57.120 whatever the hell's name is that kind of a guy. 0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:00.560 But those who were relatively intelligent, and. 0:49:00.960 --> 0:49:03.080 Tom Cotton, who got you know, who was educated at. 0:49:02.960 --> 0:49:08.520 Cabridge how well, and he's gone right, yeah, So how 0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:10.680 do they live with themselves? I mean, I don't know. 0:49:10.880 --> 0:49:13.360 I mean I'm not naive enough to say all of 0:49:13.400 --> 0:49:14.960 a sudden, the majority are gonna wake up. They got 0:49:14.960 --> 0:49:18.560 to go home and face their kids, their grandkids, their spouse. 0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:21.839 I always think, if you're a politician, do you think 0:49:21.840 --> 0:49:25.160 about the first paragraph of your obituary in your paper? 0:49:25.280 --> 0:49:28.160 What's it going to say, Trump's sycophant voted to cut 0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:30.400 a trillion dollars from Medicaid voted? 0:49:30.600 --> 0:49:31.880 What if that isn't the media? 0:49:32.120 --> 0:49:32.239 Like? 0:49:32.480 --> 0:49:36.719 What if I read a very disturbing stat today that 0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:39.960 seventy percent of the country is unaware that Donald Trump 0:49:40.040 --> 0:49:41.600 has a cryptocurrency business. 0:49:42.440 --> 0:49:46.120 I can't even what did you? Yeah, go ahead, you 0:49:46.160 --> 0:49:46.719 see what I mean? 0:49:46.800 --> 0:49:50.680 Like, so you know, it may be that those that 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:52.800 know will know, and those that don't won't. 0:49:53.880 --> 0:49:56.520 I am such a believer in that, Chuck Todd I 0:49:56.560 --> 0:49:58.520 was telling Jim I was talking to somebody over the 0:49:58.560 --> 0:50:01.840 weekend who used to be in politic dish in Boston 0:50:01.960 --> 0:50:05.640 his whole life, and he was we were talking about 0:50:05.640 --> 0:50:08.279 the Trump administration. He said, well, you know, look at 0:50:08.360 --> 0:50:10.279 Marco Rubio. He's been a stand up guy. 0:50:10.760 --> 0:50:11.680 And I said, the. 0:50:13.400 --> 0:50:16.360 Guy who's been in fifty years in politics, And I said, 0:50:16.640 --> 0:50:19.880 Marco Rubio, who was the guy that stood up for 0:50:20.080 --> 0:50:24.200 US aid that would you know, have the the the 0:50:24.400 --> 0:50:28.880 HIV virus and food for starving children, all the things 0:50:28.880 --> 0:50:31.960 that they did, disease prevention and stuff like that. Who's 0:50:32.000 --> 0:50:34.399 now done a complete one eighty and he has been 0:50:34.400 --> 0:50:36.360 the architect of getting rid of us AI D. 0:50:36.480 --> 0:50:37.480 And I thought that. 0:50:37.520 --> 0:50:42.480 This person doesn't know about Marco Rubio is really upsetting 0:50:42.640 --> 0:50:45.759 to me. And I don't know the explanation, because he 0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:48.400 is a smart guy. 0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:49.120 I think that. 0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:52.320 But I think that the Fox News and social media 0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:55.359 has been really effective. We get text here we are 0:50:55.440 --> 0:50:58.680 when an NPR station. We get text messages all day long. 0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:03.240 We get text matches just from people who basically believe, 0:51:03.400 --> 0:51:07.360 you know, there are little men walking on on Mars. 0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:11.800 It's crazy stuff and they believe it. And I think, wow, 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:13.120 what's going on here? 0:51:13.719 --> 0:51:16.560 So some little men walking in Mars, some little men 0:51:16.640 --> 0:51:20.239 walking on Inside RFK Junior's brain, those are the. 0:51:20.320 --> 0:51:21.759 Ones that might be little men walking. 0:51:21.880 --> 0:51:24.200 Well, this is a good transition. This is a good transition. 0:51:24.239 --> 0:51:28.400 When you guys began your career together, the word Kennedy 0:51:28.440 --> 0:51:33.000 meant something. Yeah in Massachusetts, Uh, in a way that 0:51:33.280 --> 0:51:36.640 was just you know, it was still a gold brand. Yes, 0:51:36.719 --> 0:51:39.440 it wasn't perfect, and no, Joe Kennedy the second couldn't 0:51:39.440 --> 0:51:42.239 get elected governor. You know, it wasn't it wasn't you know, 0:51:42.280 --> 0:51:45.759 it wasn't as if it was an automatic, but there 0:51:45.840 --> 0:51:48.439 was a reverence that went with it. Is it done done? 0:51:48.520 --> 0:51:48.800 Now? 0:51:49.000 --> 0:51:49.640 Is this thing? 0:51:49.800 --> 0:51:49.880 Like? 0:51:50.080 --> 0:51:53.640 Is this the are we at like the Freuling Housen stage? 0:51:54.000 --> 0:51:56.080 Like there for those of you who are like not 0:51:56.600 --> 0:52:00.560 total American history dorks like me, Freuling Housen, there was 0:52:00.560 --> 0:52:02.799 a Freuling Housend in Congress I think for like two 0:52:02.840 --> 0:52:04.880 hundred straight years out of New Jersey. You know, it 0:52:04.960 --> 0:52:08.239 was this constant like sort of regional family name, and 0:52:08.560 --> 0:52:10.680 you know, I think they were signers, and I think 0:52:10.680 --> 0:52:13.239 there was a Rodney Finland Housen in the nineties in 0:52:13.280 --> 0:52:17.600 New Jersey. And eventually sort of you know, the names 0:52:17.640 --> 0:52:20.920 go away and all of that. Where would you put 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:24.480 you know, we saw Joe Kennedy the third lose a 0:52:24.520 --> 0:52:27.759 primary right, So a Democratic primary. So and this was 0:52:27.760 --> 0:52:32.440 before RFK is crazy. What's what's the state of the 0:52:32.520 --> 0:52:33.600 Kennedy brand? 0:52:35.160 --> 0:52:37.160 What do you think, Marjorie Well? 0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:41.480 I think that even when we began, when Ted Kennedy 0:52:41.520 --> 0:52:43.799 was still alive, and people might argue that in terms 0:52:43.840 --> 0:52:47.080 of getting legislation passed, he was one of the most 0:52:47.640 --> 0:52:52.759 successful settlers ever. But even then, when you would talk 0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:56.040 about Ted Kennedy, the messages would come through about chap 0:52:56.040 --> 0:52:58.600 equintic And I think, as as. 0:53:00.000 --> 0:53:02.879 I know, is that an original sin? Is this an 0:53:02.880 --> 0:53:07.120 original sin? That boy talk about a do over in life? 0:53:07.120 --> 0:53:09.600 What would have happened if he'd just I think like 0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:12.919 I choked, I fessed up. I was afraid. I looked 0:53:12.960 --> 0:53:15.239 out for myself first. I didn't want her to die. 0:53:15.800 --> 0:53:19.360 I just I choked. I panicked, you know, And if that's. 0:53:19.200 --> 0:53:21.560 The better, it might have been better if you'd done that. 0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:23.680 Because he never admitted it. I thought the rest of 0:53:23.680 --> 0:53:26.200 his life was like the as we Catholic sate to 0:53:26.440 --> 0:53:29.960 venance for letting a woman die in that car and 0:53:30.800 --> 0:53:33.240 going off and going back to that hotel and sleeping 0:53:33.320 --> 0:53:35.880 and getting up in the morning and having breakfast. 0:53:35.480 --> 0:53:37.319 And knowing that she was in that car. 0:53:37.440 --> 0:53:39.759 I thought, I think he was trying to make up 0:53:39.800 --> 0:53:42.040 for it, but because he never admitted it, you know, 0:53:42.120 --> 0:53:44.719 you can't you get a tone right, and he never did. 0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:49.640 The stories I hear about him in the nineties and 0:53:49.680 --> 0:53:52.799 the aunts I went to school with somebody who had 0:53:52.840 --> 0:53:56.040 no health insurance, and he put them This was a 0:53:56.080 --> 0:53:58.560 student at GW and he put him on staff to 0:53:58.560 --> 0:54:01.760 get him healthcare, to get him the right. They've extended 0:54:01.760 --> 0:54:04.840 this person's life an extra five years. Like the number 0:54:04.880 --> 0:54:07.400 of stories like that that you'd hear that nobody he 0:54:07.440 --> 0:54:10.600 didn't ask for attention. You're right, it almost feels like, 0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:12.600 you know, that was the inner Catholic in him. I've 0:54:12.600 --> 0:54:15.800 got I've got to I've got to right the wrong. 0:54:16.200 --> 0:54:18.879 Yeah, I always thought that. I don't know if that's true, 0:54:18.920 --> 0:54:20.200 but I always thought that. 0:54:20.960 --> 0:54:22.680 Let me give you a personal story if I can, 0:54:22.760 --> 0:54:26.719 about Kennedy's effectiveness, which doesn't answer your question, but does 0:54:26.760 --> 0:54:29.920 speak to how incredible he was. I was the president 0:54:29.920 --> 0:54:32.680 of the union that represented legal services lawyer secretaries and 0:54:32.719 --> 0:54:36.440 paralegals from Ronald Reagan proposed abolition of legal services for 0:54:36.480 --> 0:54:39.120 the poor, and the two champions were a freshman in 0:54:39.120 --> 0:54:42.400 the house, Barney Frank and Ted Kennedy, and so a 0:54:42.400 --> 0:54:44.400 bunch of we were affiliated with the United Order Workers. 0:54:44.400 --> 0:54:47.719 A bunch of us met with Ted Kennedy, first time 0:54:47.920 --> 0:54:49.560 any of us had ever been in office with him. 0:54:49.600 --> 0:54:51.960 We're all, for the most part, from all over the country. 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:54.080 He says, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, 0:54:54.160 --> 0:54:56.200 and I'm going to meet with the senator whose name 0:54:56.239 --> 0:54:59.959 I forget, from Texas, who is wildly anti legal service, 0:55:00.200 --> 0:55:02.080 is not talk to him. And so we say thank you, 0:55:02.120 --> 0:55:04.040 we got in the hole, and we're all saying that 0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:06.080 was great, But I mean, really, I mean, the guy 0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:10.080 is the most right wing, vicious, anti poor person. Okay, 0:55:10.320 --> 0:55:12.480 next day we go back to his office. Who do 0:55:12.520 --> 0:55:15.080 we see in the distance walking arm in arm down 0:55:15.160 --> 0:55:17.600 the hole but the Texas Center and Kennedy and we're 0:55:17.640 --> 0:55:20.640 still incredulous. Nothing's going to happen. The vote comes up 0:55:20.680 --> 0:55:21.359 the next day. 0:55:21.680 --> 0:55:22.080 I forgot. 0:55:22.080 --> 0:55:24.960 It was an amendment about class actions or something around 0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:30.600 legal services lawyers around the country, and we have a 0:55:30.719 --> 0:55:34.240 the word we need. I can't remember what the exact 0:55:34.320 --> 0:55:37.440 vote was, but this guy's vote, he has still not voted. 0:55:37.480 --> 0:55:39.680 The guy from Texas was the critical vote that was 0:55:39.719 --> 0:55:42.360 going to was going to kill our ability to do 0:55:42.400 --> 0:55:45.000 class actions. You know what happened. Didn't show up for 0:55:45.040 --> 0:55:48.080 the vote, and it was totally a function of Ted 0:55:48.160 --> 0:55:52.560 Kennedy getting a guy who had nothing but hatred for 0:55:52.680 --> 0:55:56.880 legal services for the poor to dissa exactly because he 0:55:56.920 --> 0:55:58.320 had respect for Ted Tenny. 0:55:58.360 --> 0:55:58.920 So that maybe a. 0:55:58.880 --> 0:56:02.239 Small thing, but he was really one of the most 0:56:02.239 --> 0:56:03.319 effective characters ever. 0:56:03.320 --> 0:56:04.320 Now and answer your question. 0:56:04.760 --> 0:56:07.680 Even though young Joe Kennedy lost to Ed Markey, I 0:56:07.719 --> 0:56:09.720 am among those who thought he'd beat Ed Markey. 0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:10.879 I did too. 0:56:10.800 --> 0:56:13.440 Expect for Markey, but I think he would generational kind 0:56:13.440 --> 0:56:15.240 of thing. I'm not sure he's done. 0:56:15.400 --> 0:56:17.400 I mean, I haven't spoken to him in recent times. 0:56:17.440 --> 0:56:17.880 I don't know. 0:56:18.200 --> 0:56:21.160 But he is a really skillful, talented young guy. And 0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:24.040 I think it's maybe too early to write off the 0:56:24.080 --> 0:56:25.279 whole family name. 0:56:26.200 --> 0:56:28.080 I think that's fair. I mean, you would you would think. 0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:33.640 I wonder how much damage Bobby Kennedy Junior is doing. Ah, 0:56:33.719 --> 0:56:37.280 I think he's look I am irrational about I'm pretty 0:56:37.280 --> 0:56:39.360 irrational about him. And I think I went off on 0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:42.160 your show once you did. I mean, I just find it. 0:56:42.239 --> 0:56:46.240 I'm just I'm gross I'm just sickened by this, intentionally 0:56:46.400 --> 0:56:52.160 watching kids die, having measles, like letting the outbreak happen. 0:56:52.840 --> 0:56:58.319 I'm just I just like, who does this? Who does this? 0:57:00.200 --> 0:57:01.759 Just shocking to me? 0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:05.600 Aren't we saying that almost about everything that is stopping? 0:57:05.760 --> 0:57:11.440 I know who talks about Alcatraz, you know, alligator Alcatraz 0:57:11.480 --> 0:57:16.240 and seems to repels merchandise. Apparently now you can buy it, 0:57:16.440 --> 0:57:21.120 could buy the merchandise. And who thinks it's okay to 0:57:21.240 --> 0:57:25.320 throw to give million take away the healthcare of millions 0:57:25.320 --> 0:57:28.439 and millions of people so you can give tax breaks. 0:57:28.120 --> 0:57:31.320 To I'll tell you who thinks okay, everybody? Because nobody's 0:57:31.360 --> 0:57:33.720 doing anything, are they. We talk about this all the time, 0:57:33.800 --> 0:57:36.080 Chuck on the show, and I'm sure with you too. 0:57:36.600 --> 0:57:39.800 You know, you raise the tuition for public universities in 0:57:40.080 --> 0:57:42.520 Paris and there are a million people on the street. 0:57:42.680 --> 0:57:46.800 The next day, you take twelve million people off healthcare 0:57:46.920 --> 0:57:49.520 or whatever it is. Let's go on the list the 0:57:49.600 --> 0:57:54.680 poor people who are wonderful members of our communities on 0:57:55.200 --> 0:57:57.080 and we tweet about it or. 0:57:57.200 --> 0:57:59.080 X about it or whatever the hell we do. I 0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:01.120 think the answer is we're. 0:58:01.080 --> 0:58:04.439 Look, I got I have family, members who don't look 0:58:04.520 --> 0:58:07.960 like you and me who are American citizens who were 0:58:07.960 --> 0:58:10.560 detained off a plane and had to prove their citizenship. 0:58:10.560 --> 0:58:14.880 Oh my god, And this just happened recently, and it's 0:58:15.520 --> 0:58:19.360 it's you're just sitting there, You're just you know, I 0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:23.760 think it's because until it happens to you, you don't, 0:58:23.920 --> 0:58:26.480 you know. It's like, you know, what's the great poem? 0:58:26.560 --> 0:58:30.040 First they came for the you know, the Jews, and 0:58:30.120 --> 0:58:31.800 I just you know, said, well, it's not me or 0:58:31.840 --> 0:58:34.960 whatever it is. You know that that lioselle poem. That 0:58:35.240 --> 0:58:38.120 and and that's I guess the world we're living in. 0:58:38.640 --> 0:58:41.200 This is where I always vacillate. Do we are we 0:58:41.360 --> 0:58:43.600 in a Is this a five alarm fire, a seven 0:58:43.640 --> 0:58:47.960 alarm fire? Or where I try to end up? Hey, 0:58:48.000 --> 0:58:51.280 we've done this before. We survived George Wallace, we survived 0:58:51.320 --> 0:58:55.320 Joe McCarthy, we survived Charles Lindberg, we survived Civil War, 0:58:55.400 --> 0:58:59.520 we survived you know, I I vacillate, right and I 0:59:00.120 --> 0:59:04.439 choose right now. I choose to make the case we've 0:59:04.480 --> 0:59:06.760 been through this before, we know how to and this 0:59:06.880 --> 0:59:09.200 should give you comfort that we know how to get 0:59:09.200 --> 0:59:09.960 out of it again. 0:59:10.160 --> 0:59:12.200 But can I tell you we have had this discussion 0:59:12.280 --> 0:59:17.400 with three relatively reputable historians in recent times, Heather Cox, 0:59:17.520 --> 0:59:21.480 Richardson ken Burns, and Darris Kurrn's Goodwin. Every single one 0:59:21.520 --> 0:59:25.560 of them's answer to our question is exactly yours. And 0:59:26.280 --> 0:59:28.400 I'll mean this with any because I have huge respect 0:59:28.400 --> 0:59:30.160 for all three of them. I'm not sure any of 0:59:30.200 --> 0:59:31.200 the three of them believe it. 0:59:32.520 --> 0:59:35.200 I think we asked, you know, I don't know if 0:59:35.200 --> 0:59:37.280 I believe it. I choose to believe it. That's why 0:59:37.280 --> 0:59:38.120 I emphasize. 0:59:38.200 --> 0:59:40.880 That's why they asked Dars and she said exactly that 0:59:41.280 --> 0:59:42.920 I need or I choose to believe it. 0:59:43.000 --> 0:59:46.320 Who's the president who's been this corrupt? Who's the president 0:59:46.400 --> 0:59:48.000 this live as much as he has? 0:59:48.240 --> 0:59:49.720 You know, I was listening to one of my favorite 0:59:49.720 --> 0:59:53.160 podcasts besides of course, the Check podcast This Morning and Daily, 0:59:53.600 --> 0:59:58.320 and they were talking about a man who had uncovered 0:59:58.680 --> 1:00:02.400 cigarette smoking. He did big expose on cigarettes, and then 1:00:03.320 --> 1:00:06.120 they were threatening. Then I think it was again CBS 1:00:06.120 --> 1:00:09.320 and CBS people know has just knuckled under to Donald Trump. 1:00:09.320 --> 1:00:11.520 They're going to give him sixteen the whole Parent corporation 1:00:11.560 --> 1:00:13.600 par I'm not going to give him sixteen million dollars 1:00:13.640 --> 1:00:16.640 to his library to get out of this lawsuit. This 1:00:16.640 --> 1:00:21.480 this this frivolous, ridiculous lawsuit. But anyway, he was saying that, 1:00:21.520 --> 1:00:24.600 the interviewer said to him, well, it was the same 1:00:24.680 --> 1:00:26.880 thing that they that you were under pressure not to 1:00:26.880 --> 1:00:30.600 tell the truth about cigarettes from the cigarette companies. As 1:00:30.680 --> 1:00:33.040 what's going on now? And he said no, because then 1:00:33.080 --> 1:00:36.240 it was the cigarette companies. Today it's the President of 1:00:36.280 --> 1:00:39.520 the United States, and it's a Justice Department and the 1:00:39.560 --> 1:00:44.120 wheels of power and ice agencies and doing all these 1:00:44.480 --> 1:00:46.960 This is this is the power of the federal government, 1:00:47.360 --> 1:00:51.120 which is more powerful than any other entity in the country. 1:00:52.120 --> 1:00:53.040 Picking on is. 1:01:01.240 --> 1:01:03.959 This administration is now realizing you reap what you sew. 1:01:04.760 --> 1:01:08.600 The Epstein story, right, they create this, you know, they 1:01:08.720 --> 1:01:13.600 they all make money Dan Bongino, cash Betel, they you know, Pambondi, 1:01:13.680 --> 1:01:16.240 They all make political hay and and get their viral 1:01:16.320 --> 1:01:19.480 clips and get their notoriety by by flirting with this 1:01:19.480 --> 1:01:23.920 Epstein story. And then they're the deep state. Yeah, you know, 1:01:24.520 --> 1:01:26.960 and here we are. But you know it is damaging 1:01:27.000 --> 1:01:31.720 because guess what, who do you believe, Jim, Do you 1:01:31.720 --> 1:01:33.120 believe the government on Epstein or not. 1:01:34.000 --> 1:01:34.160 Uh. 1:01:34.800 --> 1:01:37.720 I honestly don't know. I don't know what I believe. 1:01:37.840 --> 1:01:40.200 And answer isn't that the problem, isn't it? 1:01:41.920 --> 1:01:43.800 I do not believe, you know. I'm one of those 1:01:43.840 --> 1:01:48.840 who believes that if it were as if it were 1:01:48.920 --> 1:01:52.520 is uh, if what is alleged is true, there's no 1:01:52.600 --> 1:01:55.919 way this these secrets hold, right, Maxwell would have used 1:01:55.920 --> 1:01:59.120 it to get out of going to Jay Okay, So 1:01:59.200 --> 1:02:02.160 I just I don't think there there. I think all 1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:04.280 these people hung out with him. I think they all 1:02:04.360 --> 1:02:06.800 knew you. Oh yeah, Jeffrey's a little bit this right, 1:02:07.160 --> 1:02:09.280 but you know, but he gives me free rides and 1:02:09.320 --> 1:02:12.600 his plane or I rather like hanging out at his resort. Man, 1:02:12.680 --> 1:02:16.000 it's really fun to get served pina coladas by these 1:02:16.040 --> 1:02:17.240 scantily clad girls. 1:02:17.800 --> 1:02:18.000 You know. 1:02:18.600 --> 1:02:20.960 Do I think all of that was true? You know? 1:02:21.040 --> 1:02:24.120 But the next level of it, right, like, look, if 1:02:24.120 --> 1:02:28.800 there was another Prince Andrew, wouldn't we know? Yeah, That's 1:02:28.840 --> 1:02:32.680 sort of where I'm at. That said, I understand if 1:02:32.680 --> 1:02:34.800 most people go I don't know what to believe anymore, 1:02:35.480 --> 1:02:37.960 because the same people who were telling me don't believe 1:02:38.000 --> 1:02:40.880 what the government's telling you are now the government and 1:02:40.920 --> 1:02:42.840 they're telling you believe what the government is telling you. 1:02:43.880 --> 1:02:47.120 So let me pose a question return in the other direction. 1:02:47.600 --> 1:02:51.520 Let's assume that what was exposed were unsavory conducts. Talk 1:02:51.520 --> 1:02:56.160 about euphemisms with Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. I would 1:02:56.240 --> 1:02:58.919 posit that Bill Clinton would never be invited to any 1:02:58.920 --> 1:03:01.600 event again for the rest of his life, and Donald 1:03:01.600 --> 1:03:04.800 Trump would be the same as if nothing had happened 1:03:04.800 --> 1:03:05.360 the day before. 1:03:05.440 --> 1:03:06.920 Is that a fair And. 1:03:07.440 --> 1:03:10.360 I'll give you another one. You caught Donald Trump's line 1:03:10.520 --> 1:03:13.440 on Friday where he said I hate all Democrats. Of course, 1:03:14.480 --> 1:03:17.280 Barack Obama had said that after the passage of Obamacare, 1:03:17.320 --> 1:03:19.360 I hate all Republicans. What would happen? 1:03:19.480 --> 1:03:22.120 That is so true? That was on July fourth. 1:03:22.160 --> 1:03:24.880 By the way, didn't this didn't Carolyn leven or whoever 1:03:25.120 --> 1:03:27.600 was say this is going to be a unifying things. 1:03:27.680 --> 1:03:30.120 This is a thing where he reaches out to other 1:03:30.160 --> 1:03:30.960 than Democrats. 1:03:31.160 --> 1:03:33.800 This idea that you only govern for those who support you. 1:03:33.920 --> 1:03:38.360 I mean, this is really the virus that I really 1:03:38.480 --> 1:03:42.400 I'm you know, I did you see the axiom? I'mous. 1:03:42.400 --> 1:03:44.520 Here's something I've been curious your guys take on. 1:03:44.840 --> 1:03:45.160 Marjorie. 1:03:45.120 --> 1:03:47.480 I'll let you take the first bite. I assume you 1:03:47.520 --> 1:03:50.600 saw the Axios newsletter this morning, Mike Allen. They had 1:03:50.600 --> 1:03:53.800 the little nugget about how they had these anonymous Democratic 1:03:53.840 --> 1:03:56.480 members of Congress who said, hey, man, the base is 1:03:56.560 --> 1:04:00.240 really fired up. They they don't care if we break 1:04:00.400 --> 1:04:03.520 rules to fight Trump. In fact, they don't understand why 1:04:03.560 --> 1:04:05.600 we're You know, if you have to start a fire, 1:04:05.680 --> 1:04:09.520 get shot whatever, it is like, fight fire with fire. 1:04:09.760 --> 1:04:11.760 And this has always been my concern that a second 1:04:11.800 --> 1:04:15.760 Trump term was going to not change just the Republicans, 1:04:15.760 --> 1:04:19.680 but it would change the Democrats. And in the zeal 1:04:19.840 --> 1:04:24.479 with defeating trump Ism, how many rules are how many 1:04:24.480 --> 1:04:26.720 norms and rules is it okay to break if it's 1:04:26.760 --> 1:04:29.960 in defiance to Trump, right like? And what kind of 1:04:30.320 --> 1:04:33.120 slippery slope art could we be ending up on. It's 1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:36.560 a concern I have, yeah, but I understand the Democratic anger. 1:04:38.000 --> 1:04:41.720 That's a tough an answer. I don't think well. 1:04:41.800 --> 1:04:44.120 I was going to say, maybe I'm being Pollyanna here 1:04:44.160 --> 1:04:48.520 in Massachusetts, but I want some leadership for the Democrats. 1:04:48.560 --> 1:04:52.800 I don't think that they should lower themselves to steal 1:04:52.920 --> 1:04:57.000 and cheat and lie and do what Donald Trump has done. 1:04:57.000 --> 1:04:58.800 I don't think I'm with you. I think Kamala Harrison 1:04:58.800 --> 1:05:00.800 I got as many votes as she got because they're 1:05:00.840 --> 1:05:01.960 the party that isn't doing that. 1:05:02.680 --> 1:05:05.360 Yeah, I hope so, but I don't know. I don't know. 1:05:05.440 --> 1:05:07.560 I think the Democrats have going to do something you 1:05:07.600 --> 1:05:10.200 mentioned Kamala Harris. I think the Democrats have got to 1:05:10.240 --> 1:05:12.840 do more to recognize talent. You know, you don't want 1:05:12.880 --> 1:05:18.320 to keep putting up people. You know, Barack Obama was wrong. 1:05:18.840 --> 1:05:21.600 Biden should have run against Donald Trump the first time around, 1:05:21.880 --> 1:05:23.320 not Hillary Clinton that was. 1:05:23.680 --> 1:05:25.800 So un anybody else, or it should have been an 1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:29.080 open primary. Should maybe Barack Obama shouldn't have been the 1:05:29.120 --> 1:05:32.600 one to decide who. Let the voters decide. Had the 1:05:32.720 --> 1:05:35.560 establishment decided in know seven, Barack Obama never would have 1:05:35.560 --> 1:05:36.160 been the nominee. 1:05:37.000 --> 1:05:37.720 That's a good point. 1:05:37.720 --> 1:05:40.240 I also think it was too bad that the Democrats. 1:05:40.480 --> 1:05:42.800 You know, Kamala Harris was a tough candidate when she 1:05:42.880 --> 1:05:45.800 ran for president, she was eliminated very quickly. I think 1:05:45.840 --> 1:05:48.520 she I mean, obviously there was sexism, there was racism, 1:05:48.560 --> 1:05:50.840 but in general, I don't think she's that talented a 1:05:50.840 --> 1:05:53.680 politician to have growne up against Donald Trump. And I 1:05:53.680 --> 1:05:56.680 wish they'd had a primary then with the Josh Shapiro, etc. 1:05:57.080 --> 1:05:58.720 So anyway, that's I'm getting off. 1:05:58.640 --> 1:06:01.440 For break is rule breaking, the rule breaking. 1:06:01.840 --> 1:06:04.360 I understand the rule breaking that you don't want the 1:06:04.400 --> 1:06:07.560 Democrats across. I'd like them to break some rules. I 1:06:07.560 --> 1:06:10.200 mean the example, I'll give you an example, Martin and 1:06:10.280 --> 1:06:12.840 I talk about it quite regularly. A bunch of years ago. 1:06:12.960 --> 1:06:15.760 I'm sure you'll remember this, Chuck, they had to sit in, 1:06:16.040 --> 1:06:20.000 and I thought they had to sit in because wouldn't 1:06:20.000 --> 1:06:21.040 allow voting guns. 1:06:21.200 --> 1:06:23.840 Do you remember how the sit in, this principled sit 1:06:23.960 --> 1:06:25.040 in were breaking. 1:06:25.480 --> 1:06:26.600 They were breaking house rules? 1:06:26.600 --> 1:06:30.240 You're right? Do you remember remember how the sit in ended? 1:06:31.320 --> 1:06:35.160 It was a holiday weekends and they ended they ended 1:06:35.200 --> 1:06:37.040 the sit in because they had to. 1:06:36.960 --> 1:06:38.720 Get home for the holidays. 1:06:38.840 --> 1:06:41.480 I would argue a little more rule breaking might be 1:06:41.520 --> 1:06:42.200 a thing. 1:06:42.320 --> 1:06:46.400 Okay, So I get that. That's that's you know, as 1:06:46.480 --> 1:06:49.439 as John Lewis love to call it, good trouble yo truck. 1:06:51.720 --> 1:06:54.200 But you know, we all know there's this line. You know, look, 1:06:54.520 --> 1:06:56.920 there's a whole group of democratic consultants who want to 1:06:56.920 --> 1:06:59.439 come up there like, hey, the right wing is doing 1:06:59.520 --> 1:07:03.000 this information, maybe we auto too, you know what I mean? Like, 1:07:03.040 --> 1:07:04.640 that's the slippery slip I'm worried about. 1:07:04.960 --> 1:07:05.960 I don't think that's true. 1:07:06.320 --> 1:07:08.720 I think you wonder why the Democrats aren't better at 1:07:08.760 --> 1:07:11.000 certain things. The old line about how you know the 1:07:11.040 --> 1:07:13.600 Democrats are showing up with scissors or a gunfight, or 1:07:13.680 --> 1:07:17.200 knives at a gunfight, or the Republicans were brilliant enough 1:07:17.280 --> 1:07:20.240 after Roe v. Wade to spend twenty or thirty years 1:07:20.400 --> 1:07:23.640 organizing the judicial pipeline which has brought us the Supreme 1:07:23.640 --> 1:07:25.760 Court we have now. I don't know why Democrats are 1:07:25.920 --> 1:07:29.520 better at those kinds of things, why we get out smarted, 1:07:29.560 --> 1:07:33.120 why we didn't know so much about Project twenty twenty 1:07:33.120 --> 1:07:38.919 five before the election, or maybe people didn't didn't care. 1:07:39.000 --> 1:07:43.160 But the Democrats are lousy I think at messaging to 1:07:43.280 --> 1:07:43.800 meant too much. 1:07:43.800 --> 1:07:45.520 But even when they're good, I mean, look at this. 1:07:46.840 --> 1:07:50.120 I'm hesitant to be critical of these two things because 1:07:50.160 --> 1:07:54.120 so many people saw them as great moments in political history. 1:07:54.400 --> 1:07:57.720 Corey Booker stands up without paying for twenty six hours 1:07:57.760 --> 1:08:00.000 or whatever he did and gave a speech. 1:08:00.160 --> 1:08:01.200 I heard about an hour of it. 1:08:01.240 --> 1:08:04.080 Was pretty impressive eight hours or whatever for a king. 1:08:04.200 --> 1:08:07.240 Jeffreys and the words of Peggy Lee that you're not 1:08:07.280 --> 1:08:09.200 old enough to remember her famous song. 1:08:09.720 --> 1:08:11.400 Is that all there is at the end of both 1:08:11.640 --> 1:08:13.200 I saw it, and I don't have a better idea. 1:08:13.880 --> 1:08:14.760 Is that all there is? 1:08:15.080 --> 1:08:19.400 Long speeches that are substantive and well, and then you 1:08:19.400 --> 1:08:19.840 go home. 1:08:19.960 --> 1:08:20.559 I mean, what is it? 1:08:20.640 --> 1:08:22.600 Well, here's what all? Right, I'll throw something else. I 1:08:22.600 --> 1:08:26.439 had Kristin Sultez Anderson on the show last week and 1:08:26.520 --> 1:08:29.160 she said something that I thought she just thinks we 1:08:29.200 --> 1:08:33.160 were talking about mom Donnie right and the whole Why 1:08:33.160 --> 1:08:34.960 did he win? Did he win on substance or did 1:08:34.960 --> 1:08:35.679 he went on style? 1:08:36.320 --> 1:08:36.519 Right? 1:08:36.920 --> 1:08:39.519 Essentially right. I think there's still this debate was it 1:08:39.560 --> 1:08:43.120 substance or style? And her she is basically saying, look, 1:08:44.320 --> 1:08:47.800 he really is like Trump. He filled he filled all 1:08:47.880 --> 1:08:51.880 the empty space with entertainment, if you will. It was 1:08:51.920 --> 1:08:54.920 substantive entertainment. But oh, you know, I'm going to show 1:08:55.000 --> 1:08:56.960 up here, I'm going to show up there. Yes, it 1:08:57.000 --> 1:09:00.559 was a little performative. She thinks you have to be 1:09:00.680 --> 1:09:04.760 performative now in order to be seen as legitimate. Right, 1:09:04.800 --> 1:09:06.439 And this is sort of a problem in the in 1:09:06.479 --> 1:09:09.519 the media space. Right, good journalism isn't enough? 1:09:09.560 --> 1:09:09.840 Are you? 1:09:10.240 --> 1:09:11.439 Do you know how to sell it. Are you a 1:09:11.439 --> 1:09:12.160 good influencer? 1:09:12.240 --> 1:09:12.360 Right? 1:09:12.400 --> 1:09:13.760 Do you know how to go viral? Do you know 1:09:13.800 --> 1:09:16.960 how to do these things? And that that is the 1:09:17.040 --> 1:09:20.439 skill set and that in some ways right right, this 1:09:20.439 --> 1:09:22.559 this comes back to like Donald Trump's been doing this 1:09:22.560 --> 1:09:29.040 this whole life. Suddenly the media ecosystem changed to his strength. 1:09:29.479 --> 1:09:34.080 He didn't, he didn't change. It's just suddenly his style 1:09:34.160 --> 1:09:38.600 of zero attention span suddenly was an asset when it 1:09:38.680 --> 1:09:41.000 used to be a liability, right, Like you know, it 1:09:41.080 --> 1:09:44.880 was sort of we evolved towards we devolved arguably towards him, 1:09:45.160 --> 1:09:48.280 uh in our in the way we consume information. But 1:09:48.400 --> 1:09:51.040 that was sort of her conclusion. She's not alone here, 1:09:51.120 --> 1:09:56.800 thinks that performance is more crucial than ever and performative 1:09:57.320 --> 1:10:00.439 being knowing how when do when to do these So 1:10:00.560 --> 1:10:03.560 I'm with you, Jim. I don't know what the hell 1:10:03.720 --> 1:10:06.559 either got you because you because here's the thing. It 1:10:06.640 --> 1:10:08.479 wasn't like it was going to lead to a new vote. 1:10:08.680 --> 1:10:10.640 There wasn't like there was going to be this is 1:10:10.640 --> 1:10:14.679 not mister Smith, that suddenly you've persuaded people who are watching, 1:10:15.200 --> 1:10:17.280 all right, I'm now going to vote with him, Right, 1:10:17.600 --> 1:10:21.040 Corey Booker wasn't changing a vote. A Kim Jeffreys wasn't 1:10:21.080 --> 1:10:25.320 changing a vote. They were there literally to raise money. Okay, Now, 1:10:25.320 --> 1:10:27.320 when Corey Booker did it, I think it it was 1:10:27.360 --> 1:10:30.000 the day of those special elections. It was April first, 1:10:30.560 --> 1:10:32.040 and it was the day of those special and I 1:10:32.120 --> 1:10:34.840 think it was an asset to turn out in Wisconsin 1:10:34.880 --> 1:10:39.040 and in some of these places because it gave base Democrats. Hey, 1:10:39.160 --> 1:10:41.400 while you're getting ready to vote, are you excited about this? 1:10:41.560 --> 1:10:41.760 Right? 1:10:42.080 --> 1:10:46.000 So, I do think the theatrics. I think what we 1:10:46.080 --> 1:10:48.320 have to learn from Trump is that the theatrics do matter. 1:10:48.920 --> 1:10:52.920 Filling the space matters, dominating the space matters. And you 1:10:52.960 --> 1:10:56.479 know who understood this accidentally, It turns out who Bill Clinton? 1:10:57.000 --> 1:11:00.519 Oh yeah, right, because Bill Clinton. We were assumed by 1:11:00.560 --> 1:11:03.240 all things Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton loves to go to McDonald. 1:11:03.320 --> 1:11:05.360 Bill Clinton's going to a football game, Bill Clinton. You 1:11:05.360 --> 1:11:08.280 know this, Bill Clinton that, And it drove the right 1:11:08.320 --> 1:11:13.120 wing crazy, right, And yet it was profied arguably Ronald Reagan. 1:11:13.640 --> 1:11:16.240 Ronald Reagan, this, Ronald Reagan that, and it drove the 1:11:16.320 --> 1:11:18.400 left wing crazy. You know, they couldn't seem to touch 1:11:18.439 --> 1:11:24.439 this guy. I you know, I don't like to admit 1:11:24.479 --> 1:11:26.320 that that's where we are. But maybe that is where 1:11:26.360 --> 1:11:26.639 we are. 1:11:27.280 --> 1:11:29.640 Well, why can't you be? I mean, it's funny we 1:11:29.720 --> 1:11:32.960 have this exact same conversation. I don't know if you 1:11:32.960 --> 1:11:37.120 know nik Koaha, who's the podcast for a Vulture and 1:11:37.360 --> 1:11:40.240 rights for New York Magazine too today. 1:11:40.240 --> 1:11:41.479 I don't even know how we got into this. 1:11:41.600 --> 1:11:44.840 Oh, because he had a conversation with mom Donnie about 1:11:44.840 --> 1:11:49.040 what podcasts he was listening to and whatever. And I 1:11:49.080 --> 1:11:53.520 think we the three of us, agreed that the delivery 1:11:54.280 --> 1:11:56.880 was hugely important with Mom Donnie. But I would argue, 1:11:57.000 --> 1:11:59.880 you can be both things. You can be substantive and 1:12:00.160 --> 1:12:03.920 be good messager, as opposed to Donald Trump, who's an 1:12:03.920 --> 1:12:08.920 incredible messenger and has no substance whatsoever. So I don't 1:12:08.920 --> 1:12:12.760 think being I don't think valuing the quality of the 1:12:12.800 --> 1:12:15.719 message and how it's delivered means you have to cheap 1:12:15.840 --> 1:12:21.200 one has to cheapen the policy prescription of the messenger. 1:12:21.840 --> 1:12:23.679 We don't have one at the moment, do we. 1:12:23.680 --> 1:12:24.280 Well, we were just. 1:12:24.280 --> 1:12:26.519 Talking about how Mom Donny, in a local way, if 1:12:26.520 --> 1:12:28.240 you like his politics, is doing both. 1:12:28.320 --> 1:12:28.479 You know. 1:12:29.200 --> 1:12:31.080 So look, I think Mom Donnie is an important you know. 1:12:31.240 --> 1:12:36.280 I think if he sparks, there isn't a necessary debate 1:12:36.360 --> 1:12:39.200 that the left needs to have about socialism versus capitalism. 1:12:39.760 --> 1:12:41.400 And I mean this like, I do think that there 1:12:41.479 --> 1:12:45.679 is a true dispute. Is capitalism too broke, too broken 1:12:45.720 --> 1:12:48.800 to fix? Or can you know you know which side 1:12:48.840 --> 1:12:51.679 of this column you're on. I remember, remember Elizabeth Warrenson, 1:12:51.720 --> 1:12:54.400 I'm a capitalist. I want to reform it. You know 1:12:54.880 --> 1:12:56.920 something Bernie Sanders wouldn't say. It was her way of 1:12:57.080 --> 1:13:01.960 trying to differentiate herself between Sanders and her I think, mom, 1:13:02.040 --> 1:13:04.639 Donnie's I do think this is an important debate because 1:13:04.640 --> 1:13:07.720 I do think we're in this weird moment with both 1:13:07.760 --> 1:13:11.240 parties where they're the only thing that keeps them together 1:13:11.520 --> 1:13:15.200 is cultural issues, not economic issues. 1:13:15.680 --> 1:13:15.920 Right. 1:13:15.960 --> 1:13:18.799 The divide in the Republican Party is essentially free trade 1:13:19.280 --> 1:13:23.640 versus protectionism or isolationism versus internationalism. And it's a real divide. 1:13:23.840 --> 1:13:26.640 You know, they're papering over it. You know. Trump's personality 1:13:27.040 --> 1:13:28.840 I think in the Democratic Party really is it's sort 1:13:28.840 --> 1:13:33.599 of socialism versus a technic what I call technocratic capitalism, right, 1:13:33.680 --> 1:13:36.360 sort of that public private partnership, but for the most part, 1:13:38.160 --> 1:13:42.559 a regulated free market, if you will, and we weren't 1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:44.600 and the left wasn't having that debate. They're just so 1:13:44.720 --> 1:13:48.160 consumed with not being divided, and maybe having this debate 1:13:48.200 --> 1:13:48.799 will be healthy. 1:13:50.920 --> 1:13:51.160 Yeah. 1:13:51.200 --> 1:13:54.519 Well, I also think, you know, there's a difference between 1:13:54.560 --> 1:13:58.600 being a democratic socialist and being a socialist, and socialism 1:13:58.640 --> 1:14:02.960 has got more to do great, I know, but that's 1:14:03.000 --> 1:14:07.000 sort of That's another problem is that we seem to 1:14:07.240 --> 1:14:11.880 have people that either don't care to learn about you know, 1:14:11.920 --> 1:14:13.080 they all detoke. 1:14:12.840 --> 1:14:14.640 The line that we all read in college. 1:14:15.040 --> 1:14:17.880 You know, this republic only survives if it's got it 1:14:18.040 --> 1:14:21.000 educated electorate. And I don't know that we have an 1:14:21.080 --> 1:14:23.120 uneducated electorate, but I think we have an electricate doesn't 1:14:23.120 --> 1:14:26.320 pay much attention. And I think that's a problem because 1:14:26.360 --> 1:14:28.760 you do have to kind of pay a little bit 1:14:28.800 --> 1:14:30.360 more attention and know a little bit. 1:14:30.240 --> 1:14:31.040 More what's going on. 1:14:31.200 --> 1:14:35.000 But I think socialism is to help with your childcare. 1:14:35.320 --> 1:14:38.760 I don't think socialism is getting help on rents. You know, 1:14:38.800 --> 1:14:40.200 they could people can turn it. 1:14:41.080 --> 1:14:44.760 Well, actually, I would argue you're arguing that now helping 1:14:44.840 --> 1:14:47.960 with childcare isn't socialism, it's part of the the sort 1:14:48.000 --> 1:14:51.920 of the how government should assist with capitalism. Well, if 1:14:51.920 --> 1:14:55.120 you're helping with childcare, you're helping people participate in the 1:14:55.120 --> 1:14:58.880 private sect. Well versus socialism, it's everything right, Well. 1:14:58.760 --> 1:14:59.960 We've got social Security. 1:15:00.040 --> 1:15:02.799 I don't see that's socialism, right, we know what's complaining 1:15:02.800 --> 1:15:06.200 about that or Medicare. So I think you have to 1:15:06.560 --> 1:15:08.000 people have to stand up and say this is not 1:15:08.640 --> 1:15:11.519 social Maybe you're right, maybe no one is too dim 1:15:11.600 --> 1:15:13.799 witted to get the nuance I'm messaging. 1:15:13.840 --> 1:15:16.519 The answer is don't use the terms. Is the is 1:15:16.600 --> 1:15:18.160 the thing? I mean? You know what we talk a 1:15:18.160 --> 1:15:19.040 lot on the show. Do remember that. 1:15:19.240 --> 1:15:21.559 I'm sure you've seen this the great Jimmy Kimmel thing 1:15:21.560 --> 1:15:24.519 when he sends a reporter at the Hollywood Boulevard and says, 1:15:24.520 --> 1:15:27.640 which do you prefer the Affordable Care Actor Obamacare? And 1:15:27.680 --> 1:15:30.800 everybody hates Obamacare and Olibrett loves the Affordable Care Act. 1:15:31.000 --> 1:15:32.840 Marjorie says this on the show all the time. 1:15:33.040 --> 1:15:37.240 If you take away the alleged radical left slash democratic 1:15:37.320 --> 1:15:41.759 socialist agenda and say, do you want more affordable childcare? 1:15:41.800 --> 1:15:44.080 Do you want some control on rent so I can 1:15:44.120 --> 1:15:45.960 go down the whole mom dummy or whatever list? 1:15:46.200 --> 1:15:48.439 Do you want to give taxes to rich people? Almost 1:15:48.439 --> 1:15:52.040 everybody got climate change. Almost everybody will not an agreement 1:15:52.040 --> 1:15:53.640 and say this is what I want. But if you 1:15:53.760 --> 1:15:58.160 then said either socialism or democratic socialism, and I don't 1:15:58.160 --> 1:16:00.840 think anybody knows the difference except who are one of 1:16:00.840 --> 1:16:03.000 those things, You're going to lose a lot of people. 1:16:03.000 --> 1:16:06.000 But on substance that debate should be had. 1:16:06.040 --> 1:16:08.400 And if you can avoid the terms without Donald Trump 1:16:08.439 --> 1:16:10.479 forcing you to use them, I think it'd be really 1:16:10.560 --> 1:16:13.200 valuable for a party that doesn't quite know where it's going, 1:16:13.240 --> 1:16:13.439 you know. 1:16:14.800 --> 1:16:19.360 Let me, for my entire professional life, Massachusetts has been 1:16:19.479 --> 1:16:23.559 sort of among the heartbeats of American politics, right, not 1:16:23.640 --> 1:16:27.599 the sole heartbeat, but among the heart beats multiple people 1:16:27.680 --> 1:16:31.559 coming running for president, multiple nominees, and my professional life. 1:16:31.600 --> 1:16:33.640 So I'm always right in on both sides of the 1:16:33.680 --> 1:16:37.080 aisle we've had. We've had since nineteen eighty eight former 1:16:37.120 --> 1:16:40.960 governors of both parties of the state of Massachusetts been 1:16:41.040 --> 1:16:48.840 major party nominees. Is the brand of Massachusetts tainted too 1:16:48.920 --> 1:16:51.760 much now for anybody to rise up and become a 1:16:51.760 --> 1:16:55.080 nominee again? Is there like too match Buyer's remorse on 1:16:55.120 --> 1:16:59.040 the left and sort of Taxachusetts branding on the right. 1:16:59.240 --> 1:17:04.160 For for the next generations of Massachusetts leaders to populate 1:17:04.200 --> 1:17:07.320 our national political debate, or or or am I buying 1:17:07.360 --> 1:17:10.719 into the to the right wing and left wing spins 1:17:10.880 --> 1:17:12.559 of Massachusetts politics? 1:17:14.120 --> 1:17:16.720 Jim Well, you know, I guess I would say, on 1:17:16.720 --> 1:17:21.439 one hand, a really smart, really competent, talented senator run 1:17:21.560 --> 1:17:24.080 for president and she didn't even win her home state. 1:17:24.200 --> 1:17:27.880 That was Elizabeth Warren So and she's I think she's 1:17:27.920 --> 1:17:32.240 a really talented person. But I mean, let's do both 1:17:32.280 --> 1:17:35.599 sides of the equation. While there is no Republican Party 1:17:35.640 --> 1:17:38.720 for him anymore, if Charlie Baker decided to run to 1:17:38.840 --> 1:17:43.320 represent that minority part of the Republican Party, he'd. 1:17:43.200 --> 1:17:46.040 Do better than his former boss Bill Well did. So 1:17:46.520 --> 1:17:49.519 at some point, hopefully trump Ism is going to die 1:17:49.600 --> 1:17:53.400 and Republicanism comes back, there'd be a place for that 1:17:53.520 --> 1:17:54.160 kind of person. 1:17:54.680 --> 1:17:57.479 And I don't buy. I don't buy the notion. I 1:17:57.520 --> 1:17:59.960 know you're just asking a question, not positing an answer. 1:18:00.520 --> 1:18:03.920 I don't buy the notion that our influence is going 1:18:04.000 --> 1:18:07.360 We have a lot of really talented politicians here, and 1:18:07.840 --> 1:18:10.400 I think the question is just Tommy, don't you. 1:18:10.400 --> 1:18:12.320 Think Martin Well, I've always thought the reason that is 1:18:12.360 --> 1:18:14.600 for what it's worth is that the local politics is 1:18:14.640 --> 1:18:19.320 so well informed, you know, I mean I you know, 1:18:19.439 --> 1:18:24.799 every little township seems to produce some pretty quality people. 1:18:24.880 --> 1:18:27.840 Not to say there isn't less quality people too, but 1:18:27.960 --> 1:18:31.040 that there is. And this is New England in general, right, 1:18:31.040 --> 1:18:34.120 that there's a bit of a there's still a legacy 1:18:35.120 --> 1:18:39.080 or an expectation that all politics is local and and 1:18:39.720 --> 1:18:42.040 and they kind of mean it in New England. Am 1:18:42.080 --> 1:18:45.519 I am I overlyingizing Marjorie Listen. 1:18:45.600 --> 1:18:48.760 I have lived in Massachusetts my whole life, and I 1:18:48.800 --> 1:18:52.040 am more grateful than ever that I live in Massachusetts, 1:18:52.080 --> 1:18:59.799 because I don't think people were outraged when Ramesa Osturk 1:18:59.880 --> 1:19:03.680 was taken off the street by masked ice people in 1:19:04.240 --> 1:19:08.479 Somerville for writing co authoring on OpEd. When they took 1:19:08.520 --> 1:19:11.120 that young man that was on the way to volleyball practice, 1:19:11.840 --> 1:19:14.000 ice did and hauled him out of the car. When 1:19:14.040 --> 1:19:17.400 they broke a window in New Bedford with children in 1:19:17.439 --> 1:19:18.960 the back seat to get people out of the car, 1:19:19.000 --> 1:19:20.160 people took to the streets. 1:19:20.240 --> 1:19:21.280 They were outraged. 1:19:21.640 --> 1:19:24.760 If you're a gay person in Massachusetts, I don't think 1:19:24.760 --> 1:19:28.200 you have to be afraid to live here. You know, 1:19:28.240 --> 1:19:30.840 it's tough for trans people. But it's better here than 1:19:30.880 --> 1:19:33.800 there's a lot of other places. You have people like 1:19:34.320 --> 1:19:37.040 more Heally when she was Attorney General, and Andrea Campbell, 1:19:37.240 --> 1:19:40.719 the journey General now who are taking Trump to court 1:19:41.080 --> 1:19:43.960 on all these outrageous things. We have some very talented 1:19:44.360 --> 1:19:48.080 politicians here. We have a very good school system here. 1:19:48.120 --> 1:19:51.080 If your kid is disabled, you may have to fight. 1:19:51.000 --> 1:19:54.120 To get always been, I mean, it's always been. Public 1:19:54.120 --> 1:19:56.479 school rankings, Massachusetts is always number one. 1:19:56.600 --> 1:19:59.559 I think a lot of people would be lucky to 1:19:59.600 --> 1:20:02.320 live here here. It's very expensive to live here, tough 1:20:02.360 --> 1:20:05.760 to buy a house here. But I'm really proud of Massachusetts. 1:20:05.840 --> 1:20:08.000 We also have a mayor on our show tomorrow who 1:20:08.080 --> 1:20:10.679 kicked Congress's as a couple of months ago. 1:20:10.960 --> 1:20:15.160 Only one I've ever seen give as good as she got, 1:20:15.200 --> 1:20:19.120 better than what she got with a nursing child, infant 1:20:19.160 --> 1:20:21.920 newborn at her breast, I might add, I love that 1:20:22.120 --> 1:20:23.439 for all the women of America. 1:20:24.439 --> 1:20:27.519 Well, what I was that was actually going to be 1:20:27.640 --> 1:20:29.600 how I was going to land this plane, which is 1:20:29.600 --> 1:20:33.600 the Boston Mayor's race. Yeah, and mister Craft, is it 1:20:33.680 --> 1:20:39.080 Josh Craft? Josh Craft that's running? It looks like an 1:20:39.120 --> 1:20:42.960 invisible campaign at the moment in that it's a lot 1:20:43.000 --> 1:20:47.400 more advertisements than it is hand to hand campaigning. But 1:20:47.439 --> 1:20:49.040 you tell me you guys are on the ground there. 1:20:51.720 --> 1:20:51.920 Well. 1:20:52.080 --> 1:20:56.080 People are mad about the bike lanes in Boston and 1:20:56.120 --> 1:20:57.160 Michelle Man, that's. 1:20:57.000 --> 1:20:59.679 Welcome to being mayor of any town. It's a huge 1:21:00.880 --> 1:21:04.400 I get it where you park space. 1:21:06.040 --> 1:21:07.320 I have been amazed by her. 1:21:07.920 --> 1:21:10.960 She's got a great backstory as a mother with mentionalininess, 1:21:11.040 --> 1:21:13.679 raised her two younger kids, brought them all to Boston, 1:21:13.720 --> 1:21:15.960 the mother and the two younger sisters, while she went 1:21:15.960 --> 1:21:19.800 to Harvard and Harvard Law School. Uh. She, as I said, 1:21:19.840 --> 1:21:22.679 she out smarter them all in Congress. I've not seen 1:21:22.720 --> 1:21:26.040 anybody do as well in one of those gang bangs 1:21:26.320 --> 1:21:29.439 as Michelle Wu did and as I said, a nursing 1:21:29.479 --> 1:21:33.000 mother of three. We've had a chance to interview a 1:21:33.000 --> 1:21:37.160 lot of politicians in our time, Jim. Is there somebody 1:21:37.240 --> 1:21:39.439 that knows more about the city of Boston as the 1:21:39.479 --> 1:21:43.599 mayor than Michelle Wuh, she's very impressive. Whether she's going 1:21:43.680 --> 1:21:46.160 to do I think she. I think she will win 1:21:46.439 --> 1:21:49.080 big again. I could be wrong, but I think I 1:21:49.120 --> 1:21:50.200 think she'll win big again. 1:21:50.240 --> 1:21:52.679 By the way, can you be mayor mumbles anymore and win. 1:21:54.360 --> 1:21:57.280 Well, can I tell you something? They loved him. 1:21:57.320 --> 1:21:57.880 I know they did. 1:21:58.240 --> 1:22:00.559 There was a level that came out about him and 1:22:00.760 --> 1:22:03.960 a predecessor of his, Ray Flynn, which are two of 1:22:04.000 --> 1:22:05.559 the most amazing pauls ever saw. 1:22:05.960 --> 1:22:06.800 I think the Globe did it. 1:22:06.840 --> 1:22:09.519 I'm not sure have you ever you have ever met 1:22:09.560 --> 1:22:11.599 the mayor of Boston? And by the way, it didn't 1:22:11.640 --> 1:22:14.080 mean have you been at a rally where he spoke 1:22:14.240 --> 1:22:15.400 or in an auditorium? 1:22:15.680 --> 1:22:16.360 Have you ever. 1:22:16.280 --> 1:22:18.800 Met and it was in the high fifties and low 1:22:18.920 --> 1:22:23.479 sixty percent. Yeah, major American city where people had met 1:22:23.560 --> 1:22:25.519 Tominino or ray Flynn. 1:22:25.680 --> 1:22:28.000 I mean it's just it is that's become a traditionary wor. 1:22:27.960 --> 1:22:31.280 Old school really old school? Is Mayor wu this way? 1:22:31.360 --> 1:22:33.120 Does she do the same thing? Do you see her 1:22:33.120 --> 1:22:33.519 out there. 1:22:33.439 --> 1:22:33.960 The same way? 1:22:34.160 --> 1:22:35.600 I mean she has a brand new baby, as you 1:22:35.640 --> 1:22:37.839 probably know. As Marty said, she bought the baby to Congress. 1:22:37.840 --> 1:22:39.680 She often brings the baby to our radio show and 1:22:39.680 --> 1:22:43.360 then hands it off to her husband, who has decided 1:22:43.360 --> 1:22:46.560 to put his career on hold to take care of 1:22:46.560 --> 1:22:50.240 of the baby for the time being. But yeah, she's 1:22:50.360 --> 1:22:53.920 I think they established this notion. If you're not out there, 1:22:53.960 --> 1:22:56.639 Marty Walsh, doo, if you're not out there meeting people 1:22:56.800 --> 1:23:00.320 almost twenty four to seven, this is not the job 1:23:00.439 --> 1:23:00.840 for you. 1:23:00.880 --> 1:23:02.400 So touchcraft. We should give credit. 1:23:02.439 --> 1:23:04.320 I mean, Josh Kraft ran the Boys and Girls Clubs 1:23:04.320 --> 1:23:07.200 of Florid for I mean in Boston for years and 1:23:07.240 --> 1:23:09.120 years and years, and we did a great job. I'm 1:23:09.120 --> 1:23:11.839 not sure why he's running at this particular juncture. 1:23:12.000 --> 1:23:13.800 I tell you, I'm laughing. I left him because of 1:23:13.800 --> 1:23:15.519 this covers that you just mentioned a minute ago. We're 1:23:15.560 --> 1:23:17.360 talking about bikelnes. I love that you said a chuck. 1:23:17.439 --> 1:23:20.080 You know where do you park? All our listeners mocked 1:23:20.120 --> 1:23:22.000 me because I made the big mistake when we had 1:23:22.000 --> 1:23:25.000 our first bike line discussion about six months ago, mentioning 1:23:25.160 --> 1:23:27.840 was my birthday last year and I couldn't. I had 1:23:27.880 --> 1:23:29.640 to get my own cake, which is bad enough to 1:23:29.680 --> 1:23:33.080 begin with, and I couldn't find a space nearby side 1:23:33.120 --> 1:23:35.519 to walk two blocks to get my own birthday cake. 1:23:35.800 --> 1:23:36.840 And I will never live. 1:23:38.200 --> 1:23:40.200 Was it raining at the time or snowstorm? 1:23:40.280 --> 1:23:44.439 Both ways? Actually, and I was boiling unbelievably hot, and 1:23:44.520 --> 1:23:47.160 I was snowing. It was uphill. It was hard. 1:23:48.200 --> 1:23:52.519 So is this you know, I do think there's an 1:23:52.520 --> 1:23:54.960 anti incumbent vibe that is nationwide. 1:23:55.200 --> 1:23:55.360 Right. 1:23:55.439 --> 1:23:58.920 You saw at Pittsburgh's incumbent mayor lost. We saw that 1:23:58.960 --> 1:24:03.519 San Francisco's at mayor loss. So I look at these 1:24:03.520 --> 1:24:05.920 things through that national lens. Are we going to see 1:24:06.320 --> 1:24:08.040 more of this? I think it's a terrible time to 1:24:08.040 --> 1:24:10.840 be an incumbent, right, just in general? Definitely, you can 1:24:10.880 --> 1:24:13.160 feel it, right, people are just like you know, I 1:24:13.160 --> 1:24:15.040 think this is why we've had three one term presidents 1:24:15.080 --> 1:24:17.080 in a row. You know, people didn't vote for Trump. 1:24:17.120 --> 1:24:19.360 They just voted against, you know, they voted against at 1:24:19.439 --> 1:24:23.120 least that final slice of voters did. How concerned should 1:24:23.120 --> 1:24:26.320 she be about that? In Boston? Is that you've sense 1:24:26.400 --> 1:24:26.920 that feeling? 1:24:26.920 --> 1:24:29.559 In all Jim not as concerned as the other guys 1:24:29.600 --> 1:24:32.519 should be about the fact that his father, fairly or 1:24:32.560 --> 1:24:36.400 unfairly has a friendship with Donald Trump, and some major 1:24:36.680 --> 1:24:40.240 Donald Trump donors have given a huge pile of money 1:24:40.240 --> 1:24:41.439 to a pack that's sports truck. 1:24:41.560 --> 1:24:43.240 So she she's gonna be able to turn him into 1:24:43.240 --> 1:24:45.559 a Trump she'sis or something like that. 1:24:45.600 --> 1:24:48.920 She's trying. And even though he has said I a 1:24:49.040 --> 1:24:55.519 poor Donald Trump. He has supported members of Congress who 1:24:55.600 --> 1:24:59.880 are trumpified and are bailed on every issue except Israel 1:25:00.640 --> 1:25:04.720 and uh choice, anti choice, anti same sex marriage. So 1:25:04.760 --> 1:25:07.240 I think the answer is a fair unfair. That's I'll 1:25:07.280 --> 1:25:09.400 leave that up to voters. That's going to be a 1:25:09.640 --> 1:25:12.760 has been and will be a major thrust the of 1:25:12.800 --> 1:25:16.519 the She often says to at events. He just moved 1:25:16.520 --> 1:25:18.719 here too, from Chesnut Hill, which is right across the 1:25:18.880 --> 1:25:19.320 thing there. 1:25:19.560 --> 1:25:22.760 Welcome to Boston, Josh. That's funny that that worked well. 1:25:22.800 --> 1:25:25.080 That worked well against Andy Cuomo was like, oh, hey, 1:25:25.120 --> 1:25:26.000 welcome to New York. 1:25:26.560 --> 1:25:29.720 I know that was It was an amazing That was 1:25:29.720 --> 1:25:31.280 an amazing race in New York City. 1:25:31.479 --> 1:25:33.760 So we'll see and it's not over, you know, we 1:25:33.760 --> 1:25:36.120 we That's say I saw a poll today that you 1:25:36.160 --> 1:25:42.679 can if there's consolidation behind somebody, there's you can see 1:25:43.160 --> 1:25:46.439 that Mom, Donnie has a harder ceiling. Yeah, Now the 1:25:46.560 --> 1:25:48.760 question is is it forty five or is it fifty one? 1:25:50.080 --> 1:25:53.680 But the ceiling is there and you can see. You know, 1:25:54.080 --> 1:25:56.880 it was interesting the pole I saw broken up by 1:25:56.880 --> 1:26:02.000 Burrow and he's the mayor of Brooklyn today already. You 1:26:02.040 --> 1:26:05.600 know that's not a problem. It's a coin flip in Manhattan, 1:26:05.680 --> 1:26:08.760 and he doesn't win any other borough. So look, you 1:26:08.800 --> 1:26:11.120 can win it on the strength of Brooklyn and Manhattan alone, 1:26:11.160 --> 1:26:14.120 So it doesn't matter. But you can see the path 1:26:14.160 --> 1:26:17.720 to stopping mom Donnie if there is, if there is 1:26:17.800 --> 1:26:19.639 reason to do it, I guess would be the way 1:26:19.640 --> 1:26:20.840 I'd look at it. 1:26:21.080 --> 1:26:23.240 I think you for a Cuomo to have a shot, 1:26:23.240 --> 1:26:25.519 as he has to decide, well, I should accept the 1:26:25.560 --> 1:26:29.479 endorsement of only one sexual harasser, Bill Quinton, not a second. 1:26:29.640 --> 1:26:32.080 Don't you think there's a there's a ceiling to that? 1:26:32.200 --> 1:26:34.479 And then yeah. 1:26:34.000 --> 1:26:41.599 Yeah, culture, No, I think I don't understand. And this 1:26:41.680 --> 1:26:45.160 is where I think Schumer and Jeffries have escaped accountability. Here, 1:26:45.600 --> 1:26:49.160 your national leaders that live in New York City, you 1:26:49.200 --> 1:26:52.200 look the other way while everybody rallied around Andrew Cuomo. 1:26:52.320 --> 1:26:54.679 You want to lead the Democratic Party seriously. 1:26:54.960 --> 1:26:58.439 And also if they endorse Mom donniet or no. 1:26:58.720 --> 1:27:01.240 No, they haven't. I mean, you know they've They've got 1:27:01.240 --> 1:27:04.040 this massive problem now that is dividing the Democratic Party. 1:27:05.680 --> 1:27:07.599 I think it'll be healthy in the long run, but 1:27:07.680 --> 1:27:10.880 still it is. And you're the the facto leaders of 1:27:10.920 --> 1:27:13.880 the party right now. There's nobody else. You're the Senate leader, 1:27:13.880 --> 1:27:15.920 and you're the House leader. You're both New York City guys, 1:27:16.120 --> 1:27:18.439 and you and you. You couldn't find a better candidate 1:27:18.439 --> 1:27:19.599 than Cuomo. Seriously. 1:27:20.880 --> 1:27:23.640 Yeah, yeah, I don't know that they've been that. 1:27:23.880 --> 1:27:25.280 You want to be my late tech salesman. 1:27:25.600 --> 1:27:31.559 Come on. They reached out to Joe Biden, but he 1:27:31.640 --> 1:27:32.400 was unavailable. 1:27:35.640 --> 1:27:38.560 I can't wait till Biden runs for Wilmington mayor h 1:27:38.880 --> 1:27:41.680 Beach mayor. I feel like that's coming. I feel like 1:27:41.720 --> 1:27:44.520 something like that, or Hunter Biden runs for mayor of Wilmington, 1:27:44.880 --> 1:27:47.880 Like I just you know, something like that's going to 1:27:47.920 --> 1:27:51.760 happen sooner than we think, because you know, you know, 1:27:52.040 --> 1:27:56.640 every every TV series needs a needs an episode like that. 1:27:57.280 --> 1:27:59.960 Can I ask you a quick question before we leave here, Chuck, yes, ma'am. 1:28:00.040 --> 1:28:01.280 Are we going to get out of this mess? 1:28:01.320 --> 1:28:05.800 Do you think, well everything ends, It's just going to 1:28:05.920 --> 1:28:09.599 end badly and here's the here let me ask. I'll 1:28:09.680 --> 1:28:12.120 leave you as this will make my real out question. Okay, 1:28:14.400 --> 1:28:16.920 I don't think this is a a you know, the 1:28:16.960 --> 1:28:19.360 Trump arrow will come to an end. My guess is 1:28:19.360 --> 1:28:21.640 it'll be abrupt, and I don't know how right, Like, 1:28:22.040 --> 1:28:24.639 maybe it's a natural disaster, maybe it's an economic collapse, 1:28:24.640 --> 1:28:27.679 maybe it's something else. It's going to be a mess. 1:28:28.479 --> 1:28:30.640 There's going to be one of two directions we go 1:28:30.720 --> 1:28:33.439 as a country. We decide, uh, that's never going to 1:28:33.479 --> 1:28:35.960 happen again, and we move on, or we try to 1:28:36.000 --> 1:28:39.680 Trump proof the Constitution and the government so that we 1:28:39.720 --> 1:28:43.439 don't allow that to happen again. Which direction do you 1:28:43.520 --> 1:28:44.479 expect us to go? 1:28:45.000 --> 1:28:50.040 Marjorie, Well, I'm not discouraged. 1:28:50.080 --> 1:28:53.080 I'm not encouraged by the ability of the Republicans and 1:28:53.160 --> 1:28:57.960 Democrats to agree to to to do something as dramatic 1:28:58.040 --> 1:29:01.400 as Trump Proof. But maybe if Trump is gone, because 1:29:01.439 --> 1:29:04.519 I don't see a jd. Vance or anybody able to 1:29:04.640 --> 1:29:08.040 take up that charismatic place he holds for the country, 1:29:08.040 --> 1:29:08.960 maybe then they could. 1:29:09.960 --> 1:29:12.479 I don't know. I don't know. I'd like to think 1:29:12.520 --> 1:29:16.000 they could do that, but I don't know. I'm sorry, 1:29:16.000 --> 1:29:16.800 I don't have a good answer. 1:29:16.800 --> 1:29:19.639 We want to do something that people love. In talk radio, 1:29:19.680 --> 1:29:23.120 I'm gonna argue both sides very quickly. Well, I don't 1:29:23.160 --> 1:29:26.200 think there will ever be another leader who can do 1:29:26.280 --> 1:29:28.680 what Trump does, even though they've tried. Ron Desanta's being 1:29:28.720 --> 1:29:32.599 a perfect example bismal failure. I think the freedom that 1:29:32.640 --> 1:29:36.599 Trump has given to people to be like him is. 1:29:36.560 --> 1:29:38.479 Going to be hard to get rid of. 1:29:38.600 --> 1:29:40.880 I think people find it liberating to be able to 1:29:40.880 --> 1:29:44.639 say they're worse innermost thoughts and things like that. Having 1:29:44.680 --> 1:29:47.240 said that, the other side is I'm a huge believer 1:29:47.280 --> 1:29:50.240 in leadership, and I'm not the first person who said 1:29:50.240 --> 1:29:53.439 if Ronald Reagan had run as a liberal Democrat, he 1:29:53.439 --> 1:29:55.440 would have been elected in a landslide. 1:29:55.880 --> 1:29:59.120 Leadership really matters in this country. It really matters to me. 1:29:59.640 --> 1:30:02.439 And I think if the people with the right thinking 1:30:02.520 --> 1:30:06.480 approaches find a leader who has charisma, who is youngish, 1:30:06.840 --> 1:30:11.920 who is tough, I think this could end in a 1:30:11.960 --> 1:30:14.800 far better way than I worry that it will. It's 1:30:14.800 --> 1:30:16.680 such a great point. My wife says this all the time. 1:30:16.880 --> 1:30:18.559 She goes, if Joe Biden had been a better leader, 1:30:18.600 --> 1:30:21.760 there would have been no second Trump term. Yeah, and 1:30:22.160 --> 1:30:25.880 it's a fair ethic, it's the fairest critique of it. Look, 1:30:26.040 --> 1:30:30.040 it just is true. He just wasn't the leader that 1:30:30.160 --> 1:30:33.240 was necessary to have us turn the page. Maybe it 1:30:33.280 --> 1:30:35.000 was due to age, maybe it was due to other things, 1:30:35.040 --> 1:30:38.120 but he wasn't And that you're right. Leader leadership can 1:30:38.160 --> 1:30:41.000 overcome a lot of things. If you have good leadership 1:30:41.080 --> 1:30:42.280 or bad leadership. 1:30:43.280 --> 1:30:45.560 That's what we're looking for. If you are not. 1:30:45.800 --> 1:30:47.840 Before we leave, I just say one thing for the 1:30:47.880 --> 1:30:50.679 record here so people know this. I did not own 1:30:50.680 --> 1:30:56.080 a Volvo station Wagon and I did not have pants. 1:30:56.600 --> 1:30:58.440 It was probably a suber Uh. 1:30:58.479 --> 1:30:59.840 I'm sorry, I can't talk about. 1:31:00.120 --> 1:31:03.960 I also called him the heart throb of economics one 1:31:04.000 --> 1:31:04.439 oh one. 1:31:04.520 --> 1:31:06.600 That was very complimentary. 1:31:06.960 --> 1:31:11.160 And let me let me uh, Will Bond and Cornheiser 1:31:11.240 --> 1:31:15.240 actually can socialize like they're off off camera? 1:31:15.600 --> 1:31:15.880 All right? 1:31:16.000 --> 1:31:20.439 How how are you guys able to socialize like off hours? 1:31:21.320 --> 1:31:24.320 You have enough of friends tonight the road tonight? 1:31:24.720 --> 1:31:26.720 Yeah, yeah, the. 1:31:26.680 --> 1:31:29.800 Red Sox just make some gnats ass this past Fourth 1:31:29.840 --> 1:31:32.240 of July weekend beautiful. That was embarrassing, lovely. 1:31:32.360 --> 1:31:34.240 It was expression made you. 1:31:34.120 --> 1:31:36.200 Guys look like, gave you guys hope. 1:31:36.880 --> 1:31:37.320 That's right. 1:31:37.439 --> 1:31:39.320 Now we're playing the worst team in baseball, right, so 1:31:39.360 --> 1:31:40.919 it's even more we're very excited. 1:31:41.280 --> 1:31:43.160 No, you just played the worst. I thought you just 1:31:43.160 --> 1:31:44.760 played the worst even baseball? Who is it? 1:31:44.800 --> 1:31:48.880 Tonight? Do you get the rock in Colorado even worse? Yeah? 1:31:47.200 --> 1:31:52.280 The Gnats have more losses than the Rockies since twenty nineteen, 1:31:52.560 --> 1:31:55.800 so really, yeah, we've really done well. 1:31:55.800 --> 1:31:56.200 Sausage. 1:31:56.360 --> 1:31:59.000 Think of those sausage things tonight, the sausage and onions things. 1:31:59.000 --> 1:31:59.720 That was the fun things. 1:32:00.040 --> 1:32:03.280 They're bold sausage onions, onion things. 1:32:03.880 --> 1:32:06.439 I'll have a salsage and onion thing. Please, thank you. 1:32:06.880 --> 1:32:09.679 Now everybody knows why. This is my favorite half hour 1:32:09.720 --> 1:32:10.920 that I spend every Thursday with. 1:32:11.120 --> 1:32:16.840 We love well. Thank you, the guests, the audience, Chuck. Thanks. 1:32:26.640 --> 1:32:29.000 It's always fun when you get to interview friends and 1:32:29.040 --> 1:32:30.360 people you just like each other. 1:32:30.720 --> 1:32:31.000 Uh. 1:32:31.240 --> 1:32:34.360 So, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I enjoyed having it, 1:32:34.680 --> 1:32:37.960 so I hope you enjoyed listening to it. All right, 1:32:38.040 --> 1:32:40.599 let me do a few questions, and I love it, man, 1:32:40.640 --> 1:32:45.599 The questions are getting better and better. Feedback's amazing. Uh 1:32:45.640 --> 1:32:47.800 And I admit I'm getting to the point where we 1:32:47.840 --> 1:32:50.360 may have to do entire episodes that are just as 1:32:50.479 --> 1:32:57.120 Chuck as Chuck. The real reason is because you want that, 1:32:57.680 --> 1:33:00.559 You want that sort of that music's kind of familiar, 1:33:00.560 --> 1:33:04.160 but you don't know where it belongs. That's the trick, right, 1:33:04.960 --> 1:33:07.439 All right, let's start with this, this comes from Grants. 1:33:08.960 --> 1:33:12.760 It looks like he's writing from Alabama, and he writes, 1:33:12.840 --> 1:33:15.679 Chuck love the pod, especially the longer episodes. Well, all right, 1:33:16.160 --> 1:33:20.400 the roganification of podcasts are here. Don't do any podcasts 1:33:20.439 --> 1:33:22.439 under an hour and a half, right anyway? I tease. 1:33:23.560 --> 1:33:25.880 He continues, great insights and analysis. I wanted to bounce 1:33:25.880 --> 1:33:27.479 something off of you. Have you noticed how the left 1:33:27.479 --> 1:33:29.400 and right seem to have switched places when it comes 1:33:29.439 --> 1:33:32.240 to cultural orthodoxy? He goes, when I moved to d 1:33:32.360 --> 1:33:35.600 C from Alabama, I felt judged by moderate dem staffers 1:33:35.600 --> 1:33:38.639 for things like smoking, but my GOP and libertarian friends 1:33:38.680 --> 1:33:41.519 never cared. Is this hall monitor vibe a bigger challenge 1:33:41.520 --> 1:33:44.559 for the Democratic Party? And can they shed it? Would 1:33:44.560 --> 1:33:50.000 love to hear your thoughts. You're right, I especially sort 1:33:50.000 --> 1:33:53.800 of Southern Democrats, right, you know, you know, I'll give 1:33:53.800 --> 1:33:56.840 you another one. It's not as common, right for a 1:33:56.960 --> 1:34:01.280 Democrat in d C to bechure going, and yet it's 1:34:01.360 --> 1:34:03.920 quite common in the South for everybody to be church going. 1:34:04.320 --> 1:34:06.519 So I think you're not wrong that there's a little 1:34:06.520 --> 1:34:09.240 bit of that going on. But let me flip the 1:34:09.280 --> 1:34:12.400 script here. You know where I thought you were going 1:34:12.439 --> 1:34:16.040 at first had to do with the nanny state, and 1:34:16.080 --> 1:34:18.240 I sort of more focused on sort of the bizarre, 1:34:20.720 --> 1:34:23.920 sort of the bizarreness, if you will. It's not really 1:34:23.960 --> 1:34:27.519 that bizarre anymore of Kennedy, at least on the right 1:34:27.720 --> 1:34:31.040 when it comes to that, which is you know, ten 1:34:31.120 --> 1:34:33.320 years ago, when Michael Bloomberg was trying to get rid 1:34:33.360 --> 1:34:36.799 of the big gulp, the right went crazy. Sarah Palin 1:34:36.920 --> 1:34:39.720 came out and gave speeches with a big gulp as 1:34:39.760 --> 1:34:42.320 a prop. You know, it was their way of going 1:34:42.360 --> 1:34:44.680 after the crazy left. You know, I don't know if 1:34:44.680 --> 1:34:47.640 we were calling it woke then. Right now, who's the 1:34:47.640 --> 1:34:49.920 one trying to get rid of sweets and trying to 1:34:49.920 --> 1:34:52.200 get rid of you know, trying to decide, no, you 1:34:52.200 --> 1:34:54.639 shouldn't eat this and you shouldn't eat that. Right, it's 1:34:54.680 --> 1:35:00.560 suddenly the right. So I do think these things go cyclical. 1:35:00.640 --> 1:35:02.760 You know, I'll give you another thing. Right, it was 1:35:02.800 --> 1:35:09.320 more likely you'd see a Democrat, a Democratic voter or candidate, 1:35:09.640 --> 1:35:11.439 would you know, if you saw somebody with more than 1:35:11.439 --> 1:35:14.920 one tattoo, you would assume they were their politics were 1:35:14.920 --> 1:35:16.920 on the left. Now these days, if you see somebody 1:35:16.920 --> 1:35:19.679 with more than one tattoo, you might assume their politics 1:35:19.720 --> 1:35:22.519 is on the right. So I do think some of 1:35:22.520 --> 1:35:25.439 this thing can be generational or subgenerational, and we don't 1:35:25.479 --> 1:35:30.160 see it. I do think I'm smoking. There's a few 1:35:30.200 --> 1:35:35.240 things smoking. Maybe I would have said three or four 1:35:35.320 --> 1:35:40.679 years ago, tackle football, where if you were on the left, 1:35:40.720 --> 1:35:43.719 you might get judged by your friends on the left 1:35:43.920 --> 1:35:46.960 on some of these things. So look, I do think 1:35:47.040 --> 1:35:50.080 one of the core problems, and I've said this, is 1:35:50.120 --> 1:35:54.040 that if there is a basic sort of one line 1:35:54.040 --> 1:35:58.320 descriptor problem that the Democrats have is that the Democrats 1:35:58.360 --> 1:36:00.680 seem to be always wanting to tell you how to 1:36:00.720 --> 1:36:03.160 live your life, where Republicans are trying to agree with 1:36:03.600 --> 1:36:06.240 are always going out of their way to agree with 1:36:06.320 --> 1:36:07.920 your grievance about life. 1:36:08.160 --> 1:36:08.439 Right. 1:36:10.439 --> 1:36:13.439 You know, it's sort of the idea that in general, 1:36:13.479 --> 1:36:16.320 Democrats are telling you, well you no, no, no, no, 1:36:16.880 --> 1:36:19.040 that isn't the most important issue. This is really the 1:36:19.040 --> 1:36:21.200 most important issue, versus the Republicans are saying, oh, you 1:36:21.200 --> 1:36:23.760 think that's the most important, okay, Right, They go out 1:36:23.800 --> 1:36:25.360 of their way to try to agree with the voters. 1:36:25.760 --> 1:36:28.040 Democrats go out of their way to try to tell voters, 1:36:28.640 --> 1:36:30.400 you know, no, no, no, you should think about it 1:36:30.439 --> 1:36:34.080 this way. So, yes, I think there's I think this 1:36:34.720 --> 1:36:38.040 what you've hit on something. I don't think it's as clean, 1:36:38.400 --> 1:36:41.519 quite as clean as you've gotten it. But but I 1:36:41.560 --> 1:36:43.320 know exactly what you mean, and I think it is 1:36:43.360 --> 1:36:47.120 a there is a slight. It does feel as if 1:36:47.360 --> 1:36:50.519 you're somehow. When I was growing up, it was the 1:36:50.560 --> 1:36:53.400 Republicans that were the judge Party. Now it feels like 1:36:53.439 --> 1:36:56.479 it's the Democrats of the judging Party. If we wanted 1:36:56.520 --> 1:36:58.760 to be simplistic about it, and it's and it's something 1:36:58.800 --> 1:36:59.400 they have to shed. 1:36:59.560 --> 1:37:00.360 I know it. 1:37:01.360 --> 1:37:05.120 Here's a good question for a local government administrator from Peoria, Illinois. 1:37:05.520 --> 1:37:09.599 How's it playing in Peoria? An old phrase for an 1:37:09.600 --> 1:37:12.760 older set, Chuck. I make a genuine effort to source 1:37:12.760 --> 1:37:15.040 my news from multiple perspectives, and the Check podcast has 1:37:15.040 --> 1:37:16.639 been one of my sources for a long time. Today, 1:37:16.680 --> 1:37:20.040 I have two mostly unrelated questions. First, every empire rises 1:37:20.040 --> 1:37:21.800 and falls. Are we currently living through the fall of 1:37:21.840 --> 1:37:24.560 the American Empire? Second, as a timestamp, I'm listening to 1:37:24.560 --> 1:37:27.280 your interview with Ian Bremner. Bremmer, what do you think 1:37:27.280 --> 1:37:30.040 it would actually take for the magabase to abandon trump Ism, 1:37:30.040 --> 1:37:32.559 not necessarily Trump himself given out strong echo chambers, or 1:37:32.560 --> 1:37:35.040 for both parties. Hope you find either or both of 1:37:35.080 --> 1:37:37.920 these worth tackling on a future pod. Happy Independence Day, 1:37:37.920 --> 1:37:41.840 Scott Sorow Scott, I appreciate the question, and I guess 1:37:41.880 --> 1:37:48.000 I would tackle it. You know, the last people to 1:37:48.040 --> 1:37:49.880 know when an empire falls are those that are part 1:37:49.880 --> 1:37:58.960 of the empire. Right, I'm I'm way back in my 1:37:59.080 --> 1:38:02.760 previous life when I was working at National Journal and 1:38:02.840 --> 1:38:07.920 also working a bit with The Atlantic. They and an 1:38:08.040 --> 1:38:13.000 editor there who wrote a book that was titled Are 1:38:13.120 --> 1:38:16.360 We Rome? And I think it came out in twenty ten, Right, 1:38:16.520 --> 1:38:19.200 so you're talking, you know, here we are fifteen years later, 1:38:20.400 --> 1:38:23.639 And for what it's worth, I feel like about every 1:38:23.680 --> 1:38:27.519 fifteen or twenty years, this concept of hey, you know, 1:38:27.640 --> 1:38:29.559 are we in the late stages of something? Is this 1:38:29.720 --> 1:38:32.679 like late stage Roman empires collapse, et cetera, et cetera. 1:38:34.840 --> 1:38:37.400 And you know, I think it's fair to say that 1:38:37.720 --> 1:38:42.000 a fall of a country politics or constitution, or however 1:38:42.120 --> 1:38:45.280 you would call the fall of the American Empire, it's 1:38:45.439 --> 1:38:48.320 going to feel I'm sure it would feel the same way, 1:38:48.680 --> 1:38:51.559 just like the metaphor about bankruptcy. Right first it happened slowly, 1:38:51.600 --> 1:38:54.519 then quickly, right all of a sudden, it's gone. Right, 1:38:54.560 --> 1:38:58.000 And we've seen that when the fall of leaders, right Assad, 1:38:58.240 --> 1:39:01.240 when Assad fell, whoa we all I think eventually we 1:39:01.240 --> 1:39:04.000 all thought eventually Aside's going to fall, but nobody knew 1:39:04.000 --> 1:39:05.679 when it was going to happen. And then when it happened, 1:39:05.720 --> 1:39:09.040 it just happened. It was like gone overnight. Now he's 1:39:09.080 --> 1:39:13.200 shopping at Russian grocery stores. So you know, it is 1:39:13.240 --> 1:39:19.920 one of those things that that I think that I 1:39:19.920 --> 1:39:23.639 think the better way to look at it is if 1:39:23.640 --> 1:39:25.880 we're not careful, we could end up on the path 1:39:26.200 --> 1:39:29.720 and we could see the fall of the great democratic experiment. 1:39:29.840 --> 1:39:30.040 Right. 1:39:30.880 --> 1:39:34.439 The challenge to capitalism is that if we don't figure 1:39:34.439 --> 1:39:38.799 out how to reform capitalism in a way that feels 1:39:38.840 --> 1:39:42.920 that everybody's got a shot. If people feel as if 1:39:43.120 --> 1:39:48.080 they don't have access to the American dream, the country's 1:39:48.120 --> 1:39:51.559 politics is going to collapse. It just is because it's 1:39:51.600 --> 1:39:54.200 when people feel like they don't have an ability to 1:39:54.200 --> 1:39:56.840 make a living, they don't have an ability to better 1:39:56.880 --> 1:40:00.680 their lives on their own, that's when governments fall. That's 1:40:00.720 --> 1:40:05.800 when revolutions happen, that's when you're able to gather people up. 1:40:08.600 --> 1:40:10.680 So if you look at it through that prism, right, 1:40:10.720 --> 1:40:12.240 if you look at it to see you know, how 1:40:12.280 --> 1:40:14.800 did Venezuelan fall? How did Turkey fall? If you will, 1:40:16.680 --> 1:40:19.040 there are few things that concern me. I think our 1:40:19.120 --> 1:40:24.240 rural urban divide is is UH is very makes us 1:40:24.360 --> 1:40:29.360 very vulnerable to a collapse because when you look at 1:40:29.400 --> 1:40:35.639 what happened to Venezuela, it was an authoritarian taking advantage 1:40:35.680 --> 1:40:39.479 of poor, of the rural poor and pitting them against 1:40:39.479 --> 1:40:44.840 the UH. The elites of Caracas. Airdwan got to power 1:40:45.520 --> 1:40:48.719 using both religion and and and resentment at the elites 1:40:48.760 --> 1:40:52.639 in Istumbul. You know his weakest is you know he's 1:40:52.640 --> 1:40:56.040 weakest in Istumbul because that's where the money people live. 1:40:56.080 --> 1:40:58.200 That's where the elites live. That's where they're basically the 1:40:58.240 --> 1:41:01.880 pro Democrat, pro small deed to myocracy folks live. So 1:41:03.200 --> 1:41:10.519 the the fact that that there is a monolithic political 1:41:10.560 --> 1:41:13.559 identity in rural America, I think is potentially dangerous for us. 1:41:14.120 --> 1:41:16.120 And it's why the Democratic Party has to find a 1:41:16.120 --> 1:41:20.920 way back into because that's where the seeds of this 1:41:21.080 --> 1:41:24.759 could could get worse. So I'm you know, I would 1:41:25.600 --> 1:41:29.000 I wouldn't put this as a flashing red light, but 1:41:29.080 --> 1:41:31.680 it's it's one of those if if we continue to 1:41:31.720 --> 1:41:35.320 make bad decisions over the next decade or so, then yeah, 1:41:35.920 --> 1:41:38.200 we may look back and say, oh, it's late stages 1:41:38.280 --> 1:41:42.000 of of the fall of the American Empire. But I 1:41:42.080 --> 1:41:45.240 choose to be optimistic. I choose to believe that We've 1:41:45.280 --> 1:41:51.599 had these near misses before, Mcarthyism, isolationism, a civil war, 1:41:54.200 --> 1:41:57.360 and we and we got through it. We're in one 1:41:57.400 --> 1:42:00.360 of those moments. We're going to get through it. Why 1:42:00.360 --> 1:42:02.600 do I believe that? Because why do I want to 1:42:02.640 --> 1:42:05.639 believe the alternative? Ask for your second question, what would 1:42:05.640 --> 1:42:13.840 get mega? Well, what brought the isolationists sort of what 1:42:13.960 --> 1:42:19.160 brought the isolationists back to the mainstream in the nineteen thirties, 1:42:19.960 --> 1:42:22.640 Pearl Harbor. So you're asking what would it take to 1:42:22.680 --> 1:42:27.599 sort of for the MAGA world to essentially abandon trump Ism. 1:42:27.640 --> 1:42:32.080 I think it's two things. One if trumpsm harms their livelihood. 1:42:32.360 --> 1:42:35.479 So I think the terror for the trade wars makes 1:42:35.520 --> 1:42:38.960 it very vulnerable when it doesn't work, and I just 1:42:39.000 --> 1:42:41.280 don't think it's going to work. But I'm you know, 1:42:41.840 --> 1:42:43.559 I'm going to be sitting here watching with the rest 1:42:43.560 --> 1:42:47.920 of you when it fails. The people that are going 1:42:47.920 --> 1:42:50.839 to get harmed the most are is that mega coalition. Particularly, 1:42:50.880 --> 1:42:53.280 like I said, rural farmers, those in the agricultural sector 1:42:54.080 --> 1:42:58.160 are going to get hit the hardest. That could be 1:42:58.200 --> 1:43:01.599 one thing. But the isolation it's back was, you know, 1:43:01.720 --> 1:43:08.120 an attack on Americans themselves. So you know, I have 1:43:08.760 --> 1:43:11.240 one of my theories as to why we're so polarized 1:43:11.280 --> 1:43:14.200 today is we don't have the Cold Wars as a 1:43:14.200 --> 1:43:17.160 as a way to sort of keep people from going 1:43:17.200 --> 1:43:20.799 to their political fringes, right, the threat of war with Russia, 1:43:20.920 --> 1:43:24.840 nuclear war, fear of that the Cold War kept the 1:43:24.920 --> 1:43:30.280 fringes in the fringe, and party leadership left and right 1:43:30.640 --> 1:43:33.760 did their best to sort of right. There was an 1:43:33.800 --> 1:43:36.840 agreement who the enemy was. There was a disagreement on 1:43:36.880 --> 1:43:41.320 how to confront the enemy, but that was the divide. So, 1:43:42.760 --> 1:43:44.080 I mean, those would be the two ways that I 1:43:44.080 --> 1:43:48.479 could envision Maga leaving Trump is and these folks leaving 1:43:48.479 --> 1:43:51.360 Trump is. I'm gonna take one more question here and 1:43:51.400 --> 1:43:54.960 then wrap it up for the for the day. This 1:43:55.040 --> 1:43:57.920 comes from Micah Chuck You've talked extensively about the need 1:43:58.000 --> 1:44:01.080 for more options for political parties in the States. Yes, 1:44:01.200 --> 1:44:03.280 I just did it again. To the biggest factors of 1:44:03.320 --> 1:44:05.639 poor performance in the pastor money and personality. If Must 1:44:05.680 --> 1:44:08.519 launches this America Party, it seems like those two factors 1:44:08.520 --> 1:44:10.800 are less of a problem. Obviously, he's very polarizing, and 1:44:10.800 --> 1:44:12.919 while I myself do not agree with most of his ideas, 1:44:13.200 --> 1:44:15.360 I am intrigued by the possibility that he could actually 1:44:15.400 --> 1:44:17.960 rupture the two party system. He stated that his strategy 1:44:18.000 --> 1:44:19.439 would focus on a few seats in the House in 1:44:19.479 --> 1:44:21.759 the Senate. Which states do you think he would focus 1:44:21.800 --> 1:44:24.400 on traditional swing states or red leaning libertarian es states? 1:44:24.600 --> 1:44:26.200 And if he were to run for Senate in Texas 1:44:26.280 --> 1:44:28.719 right now, could the combination of him and Paxton running 1:44:28.720 --> 1:44:31.320 as the Republican be enough to give Democrats an even 1:44:31.360 --> 1:44:35.200 greater fighting chance? Thanks Micah, Well, obviously, here I am 1:44:35.240 --> 1:44:38.360 answering your question after I've given you the beginning of 1:44:38.360 --> 1:44:46.120 this podcast my guide the states I would advise Must 1:44:46.160 --> 1:44:49.599 to go through. And you add an important point, which 1:44:49.640 --> 1:44:52.200 is Musk has Texas business ties. Right He's building his 1:44:52.240 --> 1:44:56.080 own compound in Austin for all of his children, to 1:44:56.120 --> 1:44:57.880 potentially live in. I don't think all of the mothers 1:44:57.880 --> 1:45:00.680 of his children have decided they're comfortable living together in 1:45:00.720 --> 1:45:03.360 a compound in Austin. But he's building one there and 1:45:03.400 --> 1:45:06.720 hopeful for that he's trying to start. He's incorporated his 1:45:06.760 --> 1:45:10.120 own city. We know that as well, with SpaceX there. 1:45:12.160 --> 1:45:14.479 But no, I don't think Musk himself should run ask 1:45:14.800 --> 1:45:17.200 You know, Henry Ford once ran for US any lost 1:45:17.520 --> 1:45:22.320 primarily because he was exposed as an anti semi But 1:45:23.600 --> 1:45:28.280 you know, the rich people that fund their own campaigns. 1:45:28.280 --> 1:45:30.840 And I put that caveat on there because Donald Trump's 1:45:30.840 --> 1:45:32.719 a rich person who did not fund his own campaign. 1:45:33.120 --> 1:45:35.240 But rich people that fund their own campaigns usually make 1:45:35.320 --> 1:45:38.320 terrible candidates because they think about everything through the prism 1:45:38.360 --> 1:45:40.120 of their own. You know, this is theirs, they own it, 1:45:40.200 --> 1:45:45.080 et cetera, et cetera. So I continue to believe the 1:45:45.120 --> 1:45:48.439 best way Musk can help break up the two parties 1:45:48.920 --> 1:45:54.080 is if he writes the checks and sort of handles 1:45:54.120 --> 1:45:56.320 it the way he handles SpaceX, which is he lets 1:45:56.360 --> 1:45:58.880 competent people run the day to day parts of the company, 1:45:58.880 --> 1:46:01.760 and he plays dreamer. He plays pie in the sky guy, 1:46:01.840 --> 1:46:06.400 and he plays funder. If that's what he is, maybe 1:46:06.400 --> 1:46:09.280 there's a there's a possibility there. The problem is must personality. 1:46:09.320 --> 1:46:12.240 You can just see totally blowing this thing up and 1:46:12.320 --> 1:46:14.960 becoming too definitional to the party. And then it's what's 1:46:15.000 --> 1:46:17.280 going to scare people. I mean, I think, you know, 1:46:17.479 --> 1:46:21.719 I think in all these places, you know, the minute 1:46:21.760 --> 1:46:24.960 you introduce a third candidate that gets over five percent 1:46:25.000 --> 1:46:27.720 of the vote, you scramble all of the coalitions and 1:46:27.840 --> 1:46:31.479 it opens the door for all sorts of outcomes that 1:46:31.560 --> 1:46:35.760 are unexpected. So in theory what you just described, yes, 1:46:35.880 --> 1:46:39.880 Musk and Packston, Yeah, two very unlikable people. I do 1:46:39.920 --> 1:46:42.479 think that opens the door. But I think if it's 1:46:42.520 --> 1:46:44.920 Corn and Packxton and already I'd put my money on 1:46:44.960 --> 1:46:47.320 corn and to win that three way race. And the 1:46:47.400 --> 1:46:49.599 question is do you want what is the goal? 1:46:49.880 --> 1:46:50.120 Right? 1:46:50.600 --> 1:46:52.960 Is the goal to elect more of the of the 1:46:53.000 --> 1:46:57.040 other party or is the goal to create a fulkroum 1:46:57.040 --> 1:47:00.280 of folks who can sort of decide which side, sort 1:47:00.320 --> 1:47:02.960 of the way that the the lib Dems had been 1:47:02.960 --> 1:47:04.880 in the UK, right they were sort of the third 1:47:04.880 --> 1:47:07.120 partyment would they work with conservatives? Would they work with 1:47:07.200 --> 1:47:11.639 labor who needs the numbers? You know, maybe that the 1:47:11.640 --> 1:47:14.400 Tories will become that party, that they'll be the third party. 1:47:14.439 --> 1:47:17.400 Do they end up? You know, it'll be interesting. Would 1:47:17.439 --> 1:47:21.240 Tories team up with the with Labor in order to 1:47:21.240 --> 1:47:24.920 stop Nigel Ferrage and the Reform Party? 1:47:25.000 --> 1:47:25.400 Right? You know? 1:47:25.720 --> 1:47:28.240 So the point is, the minute you open the door 1:47:28.280 --> 1:47:30.000 to a third and a fourth party, I think you 1:47:30.040 --> 1:47:32.880 opened the door to all sorts of potential outcomes that 1:47:32.960 --> 1:47:37.080 are unpredictable because we've not had many you know, we 1:47:37.120 --> 1:47:39.760 don't have enough instances to know exactly we to sit 1:47:39.800 --> 1:47:41.880 here and tell you for certainty which way things would go. 1:47:42.760 --> 1:47:45.360 But again I go back to what would be healthier 1:47:45.360 --> 1:47:47.479 for the democracy more choices? 1:47:47.800 --> 1:47:47.960 Right? 1:47:49.360 --> 1:47:51.599 Are you comfortable shopping at a store if you were 1:47:51.600 --> 1:47:53.519 trying to buy a shirt and all they offered was 1:47:53.760 --> 1:47:55.080 small and extra large? 1:47:55.760 --> 1:47:55.960 Right? 1:47:56.280 --> 1:48:00.200 And that's all we seem to to give the only 1:48:00.200 --> 1:48:02.240 two options we get the voters when people would like 1:48:03.160 --> 1:48:04.920 do they have extra small, do they have extra large? 1:48:05.040 --> 1:48:06.880 They have medium? Do they have sh medium? Do they 1:48:06.880 --> 1:48:10.559 have medium large. I'm not saying we need seven new parties, 1:48:11.840 --> 1:48:15.960 but a more robust Libertarian party would be an interesting 1:48:16.120 --> 1:48:19.479 check on the Republicans, and a more robust Forward Party 1:48:19.479 --> 1:48:22.719 could be an interesting check on the Democrats. So there, 1:48:24.120 --> 1:48:27.640 all right, I think I'm going to call it an episode. 1:48:27.680 --> 1:48:27.880 There. 1:48:27.920 --> 1:48:32.200 Appreciate you listening, Thanks for sticking with me spending time. 1:48:32.479 --> 1:48:35.000 If you enjoyed the listen, give me that five star 1:48:35.040 --> 1:48:37.839 review wherever you want to do it, Tell your friends 1:48:38.000 --> 1:48:40.360 like and subscribe. By the way, have a sub stack, 1:48:40.720 --> 1:48:43.920 so please go over there and subscribe to that. I 1:48:44.000 --> 1:48:48.960 post every Tuesday, and I have a more detailed guide 1:48:49.160 --> 1:48:53.439 to how and where a third party candidates could really 1:48:53.520 --> 1:48:56.360 which states would it make the most sense to target 1:48:56.360 --> 1:48:58.639 if you were Elon Musk, So you will enjoy that. 1:49:00.240 --> 1:49:00.599 We got. 1:49:01.520 --> 1:49:05.120 I'll have a new episode on the new Sphere app 1:49:05.160 --> 1:49:08.720 coming up this Sunday with Rom Emmanuel, so be sure 1:49:08.760 --> 1:49:10.760 to check that out as well. If you haven't had 1:49:10.800 --> 1:49:12.400 your free try to go grab it so that you 1:49:12.439 --> 1:49:16.680 can catch that episode in full. And with that, I'll 1:49:16.720 --> 1:49:18.160 see you the next time we upload this