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Speaker 1: Hello there, I'm chucked out. Welcome to another episode of

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Speaker 1: The Chuck Podcast. And yes, I'm still the host of

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Speaker 1: my own podcast. I tas because I don't know who

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Speaker 1: else would do it if you're going to name it

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Speaker 1: the Chuck Podcast. But I digress. I welcome new listeners,

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Speaker 1: new subscribers to the content, whether you've liked and subscribed

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Speaker 1: on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you get your podcast, if

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Speaker 1: you watch us in video form as well, thank you.

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Speaker 1: We've seen the growth lately. It's great, it's reassuring, and

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Speaker 1: it's good to know. Look, this is a tough business

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Speaker 1: to get into the independent media business, especially if you're

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Speaker 1: not a partisan hack.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot easier to be a partisan hack in

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Speaker 1: this world in order to quote get attention. But when

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Speaker 1: you're building something that I'm hoping to be building here,

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Speaker 1: it's incremental. So it makes you more grateful that I

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Speaker 1: know I'm earning every like and subscribe that you get,

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Speaker 1: rather than just trying to ride a grievance wave, whether

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Speaker 1: it's a liberal one or a concern a bit of one.

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Speaker 1: On this front, I'm going to go through three topics, well,

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Speaker 1: two topics today, plus a fun interview hip the Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Welcome to Reality with the World of Epstein, Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein and the Epstein Files going to tackle a little

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Speaker 1: bit of where Elon Musk if he chose to actually

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Speaker 1: engage in third party politics, where in twenty twenty six

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Speaker 1: he could be the most impactful I'll give you that

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Speaker 1: guide there. Then my interview with Marjorie again and Jim Roddy.

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Speaker 1: Jim and Marjorie have hosted the Jim and Marjorie Show

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Speaker 1: throughout the Boston media markets on a variety of places

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Speaker 1: that currently with WGBH, which is Boston Public Radio. I've

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Speaker 1: appeared on their show for over a decade and I'd

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Speaker 1: never had them appear in my show, so finally I

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Speaker 1: get them. It's lively, it's fun, it's interesting. If you

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Speaker 1: love politics, you're going to love these two. Well, you

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Speaker 1: talk every thing future of media. If you like your

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Speaker 1: Kennedy politics, We talk a little Kennedy. What happened to

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Speaker 1: the Kennedy mystique? Is it still viable? How much is

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Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy Junior sort of destroyed the brand? So a

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Speaker 1: fun conversation will be had there. We even touched on

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Speaker 1: the Epstein Files a little bit, And that's where I'm

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Speaker 1: going to begin, because I think the most distressing thing

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Speaker 1: here is that you know what happens when conspiracy theorists

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Speaker 1: become the government, and that's that's you know, this is

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Speaker 1: the lesson right. You know, the expressions you reap with you,

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Speaker 1: so you know when you when you create an information

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Speaker 1: ecosystem that's built on conspiracy and built on distrust, that's

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Speaker 1: all well and good. If that's how you're going to

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Speaker 1: exploit and profit from it. Your Dan Bongino's did that

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Speaker 1: your cash betels Donald Trump? There's no doubt quite a

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Speaker 1: few people in the right wing ecosphere has created this

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Speaker 1: misinformation nightmare that we've all been living in a lot

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Speaker 1: of distrust and many folks on the right and particular,

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Speaker 1: but frankly with Jeffrey Epstein, there isracy. The conspiracy theorists

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Speaker 1: are not on one side of the aisle. They're everywhere.

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Speaker 1: The belief that there is always more that's hidden than

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Speaker 1: what's been revealed, and it's I'm not going to sit

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Speaker 1: here and discount that that isn't true. Why won't I

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Speaker 1: discount it? Because our government only in the last month

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Speaker 1: admitted that the CIA had a file on Oswald before

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Speaker 1: and even had and there was even a case worker

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Speaker 1: on Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald, before he shot Kennedy. So

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Speaker 1: the CIA had been trying to deny anything like that

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Speaker 1: for decades. So if our government is capable of keeping

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Speaker 1: a secret like that for over sixty years, I understand

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Speaker 1: why there's so much skepticism of how government handles anything,

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Speaker 1: let alone something that could be as controversial as Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Epstein's alleged client list. Right, I say alleged because there's

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Speaker 1: been reporting that it exists, and then suddenly it supposedly

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Speaker 1: it doesn't exist, et cetera. I'm one of those, as

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Speaker 1: many of you know. I'm an Okham's razor person. I

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Speaker 1: also think it's very hard for conspiracies to sort of hold,

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Speaker 1: if you will, right, there's always a break. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I I'm on Kennedy. I've always believed that the government

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Speaker 1: conspiracy is simply covering their ass. It's not CIA at

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Speaker 1: c YA. They're paranoid that they did that one of

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Speaker 1: their guys, somebody they were keeping an eye on they

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Speaker 1: weren't doing a good job with, because if they had

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Speaker 1: kept a really good eye on them, maybe they would

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Speaker 1: have been able to stop them. And my thesis on

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Speaker 1: that has always been that that it with the CIA

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Speaker 1: didn't want to admit that it messed up like this.

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Speaker 1: That's been my thesis, not alone in that thesis. Others

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Speaker 1: believe that it must be if they're concealing that what else?

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Speaker 1: So they're concealing And it's a reminder. I've talked to

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Speaker 1: some good friends on this issue of the JFK conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: Is there anything the government could release that would say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I now know the whole story, anything right? And the

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Speaker 1: answer I get is, well, know that the assumptionet is

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Speaker 1: if you if you give them some moll out, you

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Speaker 1: hit that or there must be something more hidden. And

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Speaker 1: that brings me to the Jeffrey Epstein phenomenon. Right and

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Speaker 1: right now, you know this is the akin of Maggie

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Speaker 1: Maga eating itself. Right, They're literally this this. The snakes

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Speaker 1: are swallowing their tail, their own tails, if you will.

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Speaker 1: And it's because they've created you know, they created an

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Speaker 1: information of distrust, They created an atmosphere of distrust. They

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Speaker 1: raised expectations and turned rumors into potential facts. Uh, and

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Speaker 1: they were going to get to the real story once

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Speaker 1: they got power. And you know it. You know this

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Speaker 1: isn't deep state figures. You know this that's in power.

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Speaker 1: These are the conspiracy theorists themselves got the power. They

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Speaker 1: got the keys, they got the access. Tulsa Gabbert got

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Speaker 1: access to the JFK files, right, Cash Betel and Dan Bongino,

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Speaker 1: Dan Bongino in particular, who has become wealthy trafficking and

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Speaker 1: these conspiracy theories and misinformation. They got the keys to

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Speaker 1: the kingdom. And either there are now participants in this

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Speaker 1: conspiracy that they have been railing about for years and

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Speaker 1: now the shoes on the other foot, which some in

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Speaker 1: MAGA now believe, or the more likely result is, oh,

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Speaker 1: the truth is the truth, and there's no more there

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Speaker 1: than anybody else could hope, might have hoped that there was,

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Speaker 1: because you know, this has been some you know, desperate

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Speaker 1: attempt to try to you know, look, I understand, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you have this moment that we live in, which

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Speaker 1: is just a lot of people don't like the elites,

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Speaker 1: don't like their station in life, and so they want

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Speaker 1: to believe that the elites are like not human beings,

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Speaker 1: that they are off and creating pedophile islands and all

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Speaker 1: sorts of bizarre, weird behavior because it makes it easier

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Speaker 1: to then hate the elites and dehumanizing the elites. And

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Speaker 1: now we're now now now you have the Trump administration

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Speaker 1: that can't get their own people to believe what they're saying.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to believe it, especially because of Pam Bondi,

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Speaker 1: who while Attorney General, kept trying to play into the story.

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Speaker 1: Right She was leaning into the story a few months ago,

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Speaker 1: claiming she was going over the client list, she was

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Speaker 1: getting ready to They did that ridiculous pr stunt where

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Speaker 1: they handed these notebooks to the to these right wing

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Speaker 1: influencers who all flashed it in front of the White House,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of part one of all these secret

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Speaker 1: files that they were going to release. And now suddenly

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Speaker 1: you know, they're trying to wrap it up. And look,

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Speaker 1: the behavior of the administration is extraordinarily defensive. Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: immediate shutting down of the question of Pambondi and the

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Speaker 1: cabinet meeting shows you. It's just they consistently are behaving

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Speaker 1: as if they do have something to hide. Now, I

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Speaker 1: happen to think what they're hiding is that they've been

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Speaker 1: bullshitting you for years. They've been making stuff up about

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Speaker 1: this for years and now, but at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, they don't want to admit that they were lying,

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Speaker 1: because the minute you admit you were lying, then what

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Speaker 1: else are you lying about?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: So this is the trap that the Trump misinformers, who

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Speaker 1: are now in office and are now supposed to be

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Speaker 1: those that have the government facts that who is to

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Speaker 1: believe anything? And this is the concern that I think,

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Speaker 1: you know a lot of people have had about our

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Speaker 1: misinformation crisis, about the big tech companies only surfacing information

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Speaker 1: based on popularity or interest rather than in truth, is

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Speaker 1: that we now have a situation where nobody knows what

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Speaker 1: to believe. Number one and number two an assumption of

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Speaker 1: everybody's lying, and you've got to somehow find a way

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Speaker 1: to be you know, you're sort of you're guilty until

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Speaker 1: proven innocent. And in the in the world of social media,

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Speaker 1: the world of internet algorithms, it's pretty hard. It's pretty difficult.

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Speaker 1: In a world where you've got Elon Musk reprogramming artificial

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Speaker 1: intelligence programs in order to reflect his not so mainstream politics,

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Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, you know, you've got even

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Speaker 1: more reasons why people are going to question anything they read,

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Speaker 1: anything they hear, anything they see. And so this moment

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Speaker 1: here where Maga is essentially not wanting basically not wanting

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Speaker 1: to accept what Trump's government is telling them, this should

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Speaker 1: be this should be the moment that everybody takes a

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Speaker 1: step back and says, oh my god, what have we done?

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Speaker 1: What have we done to the the information ecosystem we

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Speaker 1: have now? You know, I think it's perfectly reasonable now

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Speaker 1: for most folks to assume that Trump is bullshitting first,

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Speaker 1: and the truth is somewhere. You're going to have to

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Speaker 1: hope for seven different reports to figure out the truth

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Speaker 1: that everything is sort of you know, this is the way.

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Speaker 1: By the way the American information ecosystem worked in the

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century. Nineteenth century wasn't such a good century for

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Speaker 1: us politically. We were divided the entire time. You know,

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Speaker 1: there was at one point a storming of the capital,

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Speaker 1: storming of the capital city in Washington, DC, based on

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Speaker 1: some bizarre conspiracy about the pope. This is in the

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Speaker 1: eighteen fifties. This was before the start of the Civil War.

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Speaker 1: So the America the nineteenth century, which was in many ways,

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Speaker 1: had a information, a daily information ecosystem that was very unsteady.

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Speaker 1: Trust me, go do some research in old archives and

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Speaker 1: read news stories about events that we now know what happened.

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Speaker 1: And then you read during there would be all sorts

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Speaker 1: of partisan takes and every city had their own politically

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Speaker 1: aligned news organization. Frankly, it's very similar to what the

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Speaker 1: last ten years have looked like on cable news or

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Speaker 1: what you've seen on social media and sometimes what you've

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Speaker 1: see and now in the world of independent media. But

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Speaker 1: this moment where we don't know was was Dan Bongino

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Speaker 1: lying to you then or lying to you now? It's

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Speaker 1: Cash Betel lying to you then or lying to you now.

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Speaker 1: It's Pam Bondi lying to you then or lying to

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Speaker 1: you now she lying They lied to you at some point.

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Speaker 1: And what you've created is is not an information you

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Speaker 1: know is now we're in a We're living in a

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Speaker 1: world where you just don't know what the truth is.

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Speaker 1: This is life in Russia. Talk to or Russian somebody

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Speaker 1: who lives in Moscow who's not a Putin fan and

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Speaker 1: ask them, how do you know? What's you know? What

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Speaker 1: do you believe? And they're like, it's hard to know

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Speaker 1: what to believe. This is what life is like many

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Speaker 1: times in the Middle East, and the way the media

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Speaker 1: is sort of both consumed and interpreted, lots of skepticism.

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Speaker 1: Nobody believes anything. And by the way, the only people

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Speaker 1: that benefit from a world where nobody believes anything are

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Speaker 1: those in power, right, because then they get to manipulate

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Speaker 1: the information. They're the ones in power. So is this

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Speaker 1: should be this should be a five alarm fire, right,

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Speaker 1: this is a moment and we're going to have more

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Speaker 1: of these where the government is going to say something

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Speaker 1: and literally seventy percent are not going to believe it.

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Speaker 1: And we're in a situation with Epstein. And look, there's

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Speaker 1: partisan reasons for it.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: You have those on the left, they're convinced that there

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Speaker 1: is something there in Trump's just a frame of how

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Speaker 1: many times he shows up in the so called Epstein files.

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Speaker 1: There's those on the right that believe that that maybe, well,

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Speaker 1: they're covering something up. Maybe it is not about Trump,

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Speaker 1: but maybe it's about somebody else in the quote elite

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Speaker 1: ecosystem that just happens to be on the right side

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Speaker 1: rather than on the left side. But when you stoke

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Speaker 1: conspiracies and automatically assume there's a conspiracy and then you

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Speaker 1: get power, and then you realize the truth, and then

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Speaker 1: you realize you don't know how to release the truth.

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Speaker 1: You don't know where to put it where people will

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Speaker 1: believe it. And right now, I mean the number two person,

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Speaker 1: the number one and number two people at the FBI,

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Speaker 1: how are we supposed to believe anything they have to say?

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Speaker 1: The Attorney General, how are you supposed to believe anything

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Speaker 1: she says? So this is real crisis. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: in the short term, arguably the president probably ought to

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Speaker 1: fire all three of these folks, because if you don't

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Speaker 1: have the if the public isn't going to believe what

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Speaker 1: you have to say in law enforcement, you're in trouble.

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Speaker 1: You're completely inoperable as ahead of a law enforcement agency.

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Speaker 1: So now perhaps those three just had to take the fall.

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Speaker 1: But look, there's reason for the phrase you reput yourself

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Speaker 1: and this is a classic case of that. But instead

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Speaker 1: of dunking on them, this is you know, this is

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Speaker 1: why I'm here, This is why I want to rebuild

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Speaker 1: the local news ecosystem. We need to rebuild mainstream media.

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Speaker 1: We need to rebuild trust because too many partisan hacks

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Speaker 1: like Dan Bongino and others have systematically helped accelerate distrust

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Speaker 1: and purposely did it in order to gain power. And

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Speaker 1: you can sit here and say, isn't it rich that

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Speaker 1: now that they're in power, they're not believed. Well, they

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Speaker 1: did it. They did it to themselves, but more importantly,

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Speaker 1: they've done it to all of us, and they've done

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Speaker 1: it to the country, and they're doing it to the government. Look,

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Speaker 1: the government has earned its distrust the Iraq War. Just

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Speaker 1: look at the last twenty five years, right, no WMD,

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Speaker 1: the financial crisis, nobody held accountable, government did shit, did

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Speaker 1: squat right. Not a single banker, not a single person

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Speaker 1: that took down the entire world economy was held accountable

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Speaker 1: for their actions. COVID happens upon that after the fact,

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Speaker 1: and only adds to it the Russia investigation. All of

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Speaker 1: these things that were not fully that were you know,

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Speaker 1: in some ways manipulated, in some ways you had misinformers

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Speaker 1: trying to get involved. But it doesn't matter. It created

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Speaker 1: an environment of distrust that was built on two particular issues.

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Speaker 1: Where that distrust was was was earned right, And then

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Speaker 1: I'd go back to the core one that I brought up,

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Speaker 1: which is the government took sixty two years to finally

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Speaker 1: admit that it had a file in that the CIA

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Speaker 1: was following Oswald. So it is obviously government did this

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Speaker 1: to themselves. But the but the people that have tried

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Speaker 1: to benefit have tried to essentially profit off of this.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're they're they're the they're on the I mean,

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Speaker 1: at least they're the ones having to deliver this message

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Speaker 1: and they're watching their reputations with with their right wing

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Speaker 1: conspiracy friends go down the train. But again, if this

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Speaker 1: were a functional presidential administration that was not sort of

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Speaker 1: the way it operates right where it's just on the

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Speaker 1: whims of one person. But if this were an administration

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Speaker 1: that did care about whether the public was going to

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Speaker 1: believe its law enforcement agencies, all three of these people

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Speaker 1: would be fired tonight, Bondi, Patel and Bongino because they're

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Speaker 1: just they've they've been they're too toxic. They're two points

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Speaker 1: I it is, I go back, why should anybody believe

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Speaker 1: anything they say? And they did it to themselves, all right.

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Speaker 1: I want to pivot here to a topic I touched

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Speaker 1: on a little bit about Elon Musk and third parties.

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Speaker 1: So a little bit of what I wrote about in

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Speaker 1: my substack piece this week as well. You can go

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Speaker 1: read the fuller version of this, because look, this is

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Speaker 1: a theme I want to say, Hey, Elon Musk, welcome

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Speaker 1: to the party. Right, this is a theme I wrote

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Speaker 1: two months ago. I've been talking about here a lot.

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Speaker 1: I do think the two party system is on the

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Speaker 1: brink of collapsing, and if it does, it's actually could

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Speaker 1: be very healthy.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: If we want to rebuild this democracy, a functional democracy

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Speaker 1: for the twenty first century, we need to create us

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Speaker 1: the condition so that we can be a multi party country.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I just had an interesting conversation for a

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Speaker 1: for an episode of my new sphere show that'll be

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Speaker 1: coming out in a couple of weeks with the head

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Speaker 1: of the George Washington Presidential Library, And you know, she

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Speaker 1: was telling me that the founders, you know, whether it

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Speaker 1: was Hamilton Adams all, you know, they knew parties were

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Speaker 1: going to form, but the assumption wasn' be factions, that

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Speaker 1: there'd be multiple parties. They really thought it would operate

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Speaker 1: a bit more like the UK, even though we were

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Speaker 1: a parliamentary system, but we did sort of emulate the system.

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Speaker 1: And the fact that she put it to me, many

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Speaker 1: of the founders saw themselves as Whigs, you know at

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Speaker 1: the time, which was a borrowed essentially a borrowed political

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Speaker 1: movement from the UK, and the assumption was it would

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Speaker 1: be multi party, that it wouldn't it wouldn't sort of

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Speaker 1: devolve into what we have, which is this two just

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Speaker 1: a two party system, And look, the work that it

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Speaker 1: would take to break it up is is where is

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Speaker 1: where you would need rich people to get involved. But

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Speaker 1: the fact is, you know what's bothered me about the

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Speaker 1: coverage of Musk is that it's it's the conversation has

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Speaker 1: shifted not towards the vulnerability of the parties, whether whether

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Speaker 1: actually there's a market for this, which I believe there is.

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Speaker 1: I've been making that case for a while, but instead

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Speaker 1: it's been focused on him. Right, you know, all things Musk.

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Speaker 1: I get it right, Musk is sort of sticky all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. What's his motive? What's his angle? Is it

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Speaker 1: a brand play? Is that revenge is at boredom? All right?

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Speaker 1: I get it. But I also don't want you to

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Speaker 1: dismiss anything Musk is up to just by saying, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, look what he did with Twitter, because you know,

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Speaker 1: the blind squirrel finds an acorn a stop clock is

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Speaker 1: right twice, and Elon Musk is right right. Our two

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Speaker 1: party system doesn't fit the moment because right now both

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Speaker 1: parties our cultural are stitched together in culture. Neither the

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Speaker 1: Democratic Party of the Republican Party. It's held together by

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Speaker 1: any sort of coherent ideology. The glue is cultural identity,

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Speaker 1: economic policy, foreign policy, institutional theory. These are all fractures

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Speaker 1: within both of these parties.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Right on the Democratic side, you've got a growing divide

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Speaker 1: over capitalism itself. Democratic socialists like Zorn Mamdani and others

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Speaker 1: are openly questioning whether the system can even be salvaged.

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Speaker 1: And they're not on the fringe anymore. They have momentum,

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Speaker 1: they have organizing power, and they have a sharp critique

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Speaker 1: of both Wall Street and Washington. On the right, the

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Speaker 1: old Reagan coalition is just simply gone. The Party of

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Speaker 1: Free Markets and Globalization has morphed into a party skeptical

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Speaker 1: of trade, allergic immigration, isolationists. In his worldview, you've got

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Speaker 1: the Mago wing on one side and what's left of

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Speaker 1: that Chamber of Commerce crowd on the other trying to

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Speaker 1: hang on. So if ideology isn't binding, these parties together.

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Speaker 1: What is well we know it is it's cultural grievance,

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Speaker 1: tribal loyalty, fear the other side. And that's the problem

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Speaker 1: because that kind of glue is very brittle, doesn't hold

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Speaker 1: under pressure. It makes people dig in deeper. But it's

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Speaker 1: also the vulnerability as to why I think a third

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Speaker 1: and fourth party could come up and if we had,

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Speaker 1: if ballid access were fair, and again I do think

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Speaker 1: that there is not equal access, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: a violation of the Constitution. I think these ballot access

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Speaker 1: rules that favor the two major parties over minor parties

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Speaker 1: in each states are unconstitutional and probably ought to collectively

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Speaker 1: be challenged in a smarter and better way. An interesting

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Speaker 1: use of elon musks of money, by the way, But

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Speaker 1: the fact of the matter is we've got we've got

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Speaker 1: a country that would be a lot more comfortable in

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Speaker 1: four parties. A populist nationalist right, a pro business center right,

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Speaker 1: a progressive economic justice left, and a liberal institutionalist center

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Speaker 1: left right. That is the four sort of groups of voters,

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Speaker 1: and they are about twenty twenty, twenty and twenty with

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Speaker 1: another twenty percent of the country just all over the place.

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Speaker 1: So those factions are there. The voters are there, but

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Speaker 1: they've been awkwardly stuffed into this binary system that no

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Speaker 1: longer fits. And that's why we get this dysfunction. That's

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Speaker 1: why we get the performative politics, and that's why we

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Speaker 1: get loyalty tests instead of policy debates. So I want

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Speaker 1: to be clear, the demand for a real alternative is there.

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Speaker 1: The market exists. What's missing is infrastructure and patience. So

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Speaker 1: just because Elon Musk's is involved, don't just dismiss it

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Speaker 1: because you you know, he'll lose interest and he'll do

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Speaker 1: all that you know, and he'll make bad decisions and

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Speaker 1: all those things are true. Right, maybe he's smart enough

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Speaker 1: to let somebody else do it, and that's going to

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Speaker 1: be something I'm looking for. But the fact is it's possible,

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Speaker 1: and I just wouldn't dismiss dismiss this moment. I think

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Speaker 1: we've never been I don't think the two parties collectively

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Speaker 1: have been this week in a long long time, because

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Speaker 1: neither party is stitched together in policy. They're only stitched

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Speaker 1: together on identity and feared if you could break that,

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Speaker 1: the volatility could end up breaking the two parties. So

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Speaker 1: while I'm very skeptical that Musk is going to follow through,

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Speaker 1: but if he does. If he does, there is a

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Speaker 1: path for him. He is something few others have in

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Speaker 1: this goal to start a third party. He's got money.

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Speaker 1: Ross Bureau was filthy rich, and that's what helped him

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Speaker 1: get on the ballot. He used it in the nineties

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Speaker 1: to break through the ballot access wall. He built a

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Speaker 1: political party. Musk could do the same. He could build

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Speaker 1: the infrastructure and if he wanted to play the long game,

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Speaker 1: not just make headlines, he could actually reshape the party

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Speaker 1: infrastructure for decades to come. So if he is interested

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Speaker 1: in doing this, and if I were advising him politically,

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Speaker 1: I'd say this number one, don't try to create one

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Speaker 1: centrist party. Create two. A center right party, say in

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Speaker 1: the state of Texas, and a center left vehicle stay

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Speaker 1: in the state of Florida. Those are my two test cases.

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Speaker 1: Use those two states as your test markets. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for yourself as sort of a startup right because if

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Speaker 1: it works in those two places, it's going to work everywhere.

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Speaker 1: And those two places, why do I pick there? Because

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Speaker 1: the ruling party is dominant, but it's internally divided. Texas

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Speaker 1: is divided between sort of that John Cornyn institutionalist wing

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Speaker 1: and the ken packstif Magna win, what an opportunity for

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Speaker 1: Musk right now to go get build an infrastructure that

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Speaker 1: John Cornyn could run in as a third party candidate

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Speaker 1: and probably win in a three way or four way race.

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Speaker 1: And in Florida you have a divided Republican party there

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Speaker 1: is somewhat it's a little more personality divide, very loyal

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Speaker 1: to Trump, distrustful of There's not a lot of love

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Speaker 1: these days. For DeSantis, it's more of a personality issue.

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Speaker 1: But there's a large independent population and a fractured Democratic

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Speaker 1: party that's kind of broken, but a center left independent

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Speaker 1: that's interesting. So the point is is that both you

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Speaker 1: have two big states that would be very expensive. But

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Speaker 1: if you're Musk, money is no issue, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's the two best proving grounds.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: His goal is to see if he can elect three

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Speaker 1: or four independent senators right to become sort of the

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Speaker 1: majority makers of Senate control. So if you're going to

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Speaker 1: go down that, this would be the states that I

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Speaker 1: would be targeting first. So I gave you my Florida

431
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: and Texas big examples. So you obviously need more than

432
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 1: just two targets. The next two places I'd be targeting

433
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: if I were him, would be Maine in Alaska. Both

434
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,239
Speaker 1: states have a history of electing independent candidates. There's an

435
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 1: independently elected senators in both states right now, Murkowski one

436
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: not because she was outside the Republican Party structure, and

437
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 1: Angus King and Maine one outside the Democratic Party structure.

438
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 1: Perhaps Susan Collins, who's not very popular inside her own

439
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: Republican party these days. Maybe she would take the third

440
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 1: route on that and he could get her to become

441
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 1: a member of his party. You know, you can get

442
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: that quickly. The point is that both states also have

443
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: easier ballot access laws. They're both ranked choice voting states,

444
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: so there is almost an openness and it allows you

445
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: to do this. So again, two places to do. Michigan

446
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: is another place. There's going to be a very competitive

447
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: three way governor's race thanks to Mike Duggan, the former

448
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,360
Speaker 1: mayor of Detroit, running as an independent for governor. Well,

449
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,439
Speaker 1: if you have a highly contested three way race for governor,

450
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: easy to create the conditions to make the Senate race,

451
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 1: which is an open seat. Gary Peters, the Democratic senator

452
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,360
Speaker 1: not seeking reelection there's going to be a Democratic primary

453
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: there of interest, and then some going to probably not

454
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 1: be a Republican primary. We'll see Mike Rodgers, who lost

455
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty four, is going to run again as

456
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: a Republican nominee. So you could find a third party candidate,

457
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 1: be cut and basically ride the codetails of the governor's race.

458
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 1: Then the four other states that I would be looking

459
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: at where there are divides on Republican philosophy are in Ohio, Kansas, Nebraska,

460
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 1: and Iowa. Me take Kansas, Nebraska, and Iowa together. These

461
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: are the farm states. These states are getting hit extraordinarily

462
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: hard on the tariff war, and the trade war is

463
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: going to make people poor, particularly Republican voters poor. In

464
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: those three states, there's opportunity. It fits Musk's ideology of

465
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: sort of center right, pro business, pro trade. I think

466
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: the opening is there any of those states. We already

467
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,120
Speaker 1: see there's an independent candidate in Dan Osborne running against

468
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: Pete Ricketts. Osborne's worldview is probably further afield than where

469
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: Musk is. He maybe actually is pro tariff as Trump

470
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: on some things, but we've seen Osborne have some success.

471
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: It's a weak Democratic Party in Nebraska, so you could

472
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: see that. Throw a third party, a third independent, a

473
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: second independent candidate in Nebraska, and suddenly you have a

474
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: very interesting three way race and it creates what Musk

475
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: claims he wants, which is a potential check on the

476
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 1: MAGA majority, if you will. And then there's Ohio right

477
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,879
Speaker 1: where you have a real divide between sort of the

478
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: institutionalist wing think Mike DeWine and the MAGA wing like

479
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: Vivik Ramaswami and JD Vance. You've got a Democratic party

480
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: that's struggling with its brand, but it's fairly competitive, especially

481
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: if Shared Brown or Tim Ryan ends up running. But

482
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,640
Speaker 1: I think you could go a long way. I think

483
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: some of their success is winning over some voters who

484
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,880
Speaker 1: normally wouldn't be Shared Brown voters, but they can't stomach

485
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 1: supporting MAGA. That's the constituency that Musk his center right

486
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: party could so it's another testing ground. And then two

487
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: other states I might throw in in senate races. You

488
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: have the open seat in Kentucky. He's already going to

489
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,680
Speaker 1: probably spend some money helping Thomas Massey out in the

490
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: Kentucky house race.

491
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 3: There.

492
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: Ran Paul is certainly no maga guy. So I do

493
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 1: think there could be an environment and interest of an

494
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: alternative to the Maga Republican Party in Kentucky and then Colorado.

495
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: While John Hickenloop is not somebody that I think is

496
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: very vulnerable, Colorado is a state. It's kind of a

497
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: weak Republican party these days. It's a state where he

498
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: could get some traction with a third party that, even

499
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: if you don't win the race, just getting over ten

500
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: percent in any of these places could get you semi

501
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: permanent status for the next election, i e. The presidential election.

502
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: So that would be the path I would advise him.

503
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: He doesn't take advice very well. But if that is

504
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: what you were looking to do as a third party,

505
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: to both be disruptive and to find places you could

506
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: actually win, that's where I'd be focused Texas, Florida, Maine, Alaska, Michigan, Ohio, Kansas, Nebraska,

507
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: and Iowa, with maybe Kentucky and maybe Colorado throwing bones there.

508
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 1: When do it everywhere, focus there, you might win two

509
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 1: or three of those races. Because I think things are

510
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: I just think this electorate just think it's a bit

511
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: more unsettled, all right, Yes, midterms more or less operata

512
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: as a referendum on the incumbent party. But I just

513
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: think this is going to be a very volatile electorate,

514
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: so keep an eye on it. And look, I am

515
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: somebody who believes if we can actually break up the

516
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: duopoly create a healthy four party system, you may need

517
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: some money, like from people like Elon Musk in order

518
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: to in order to pursue, in order to succeed sort

519
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: of breaking these barriers. If he's willing to spend his

520
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: money but take a step back in his personality, the

521
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: possibilities are really there. And look, it's it's I'm one

522
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: of those who believes a two party system isn't bending anymore.

523
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: It's calcified, and if we want to fix it, we

524
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: need we may need a break for both parties. All right,

525
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: I'll sneak at a break and when we come back, a

526
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: fun conversation with my friends from Boston politics and Boston media,

527
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: Jim and Marjorie. So for over a decade, every Thursday,

528
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: I've made an appearance on Boston Public Radio w GBH,

529
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 1: the Jim and Marjorie Show. And now that I have

530
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: a podcast, I realized I have never been able to

531
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: flip the script on them, and instead of them peppering

532
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: me with questions and basically trying to goad me to

533
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: end my career in some sort of viral moment in

534
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: the Boston media market, I want to try to present

535
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: them with the same opportunity. And you know what I

536
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: was doing the mathire guys. I realized, I've been doing

537
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: this over ten years, and then are you have you

538
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: guys been doing this for thirty years close together since

539
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine.

540
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 3: We've been doing radios for twenty six years, six years,

541
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: and we did an under the radar television show that

542
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 3: absolutely nobody watched for a bunch of years before that.

543
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 2: When I say nobody, I don't mean nobody.

544
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: I mean nobody watched this television show, not even our

545
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 3: pounds watching television show.

546
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 1: One of my first shows was a cable access show.

547
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: I know it should talk about those. That's how you learned,

548
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: That's how.

549
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 4: You learn, That's how we learned.

550
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 2: That's right.

551
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: When I was at the Hotline. We started a show

552
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: in ninety eight or ninety nine on a cable access

553
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: that was only available on like one of the cable

554
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: systems in DC. And it was and the channel itself

555
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: was owned by some looney tune widow who was sort

556
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 1: of like crazy right wing, was willing to fund this

557
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 1: channel and they just needed a film programming. And I

558
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: remember our pre the guy who who was our the

559
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 1: show that preceded us, Billy Bush, oh before Billy Bush

560
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: made it like he was scrabbing Billy Bush. Yes, yes, god,

561
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 1: you know he was a local DC DJ.

562
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: I didn't know.

563
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: But but it's funny. You guys have been in this

564
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: business a long time, you know, we we've all we

565
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: were all experimenting in the late nineties, and now we're

566
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: all kind of re experimenting again. You guys have shifted

567
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: to a YouTube format from public radio a little bit,

568
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: and obviously still doing public radio. I'm doing what I'm doing.

569
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 1: But in some ways, the more things change, the more

570
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: they stay the same, right, I hope.

571
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 5: So I don't I don't know where journalism is going.

572
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 5: I get you know, these are tough times for the business,

573
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 5: and I'm nervous about it. You know, people that have

574
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 5: their kids in college now say tell me about journalism,

575
00:32:58,520 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 5: and I don't know what to tell them.

576
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 4: Chuck, is it so different?

577
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 3: You know you don't even know this, Chuck Todd, But

578
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 3: you are part of a quote. We have a feature

579
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 3: on Friday on our show, one of our segments called

580
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 3: press Play. We started about I don't know three months ago,

581
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 3: and I ask every guest the same question every week,

582
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 3: and it goes like this, I said, a couple of

583
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: months ago. Marty Baron, form writer of The Boss and

584
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 3: Globe and the Washington Post, was on our show. A

585
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 3: day later, Chuck Toddho's with Us every Thursday was on

586
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 3: our show. And it was right after Ruth Marcus had

587
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: not only had her problem with the bosses of the

588
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 3: Washington Post, but had been honest enough to write in

589
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 3: a long piece in The New Yorker that at least

590
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 3: on two of her columns, one of which I think

591
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 3: was about Bezos who owns the Washington Post, one of

592
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 3: which I think was about Trump, where she admitted she

593
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 3: pulled back from what she was going to say. And

594
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 3: we asked, Marty Baron, do you know any about the

595
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 3: Washington Post reporters, not editorialists, who are even if it's

596
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 3: not truly intentional or pulling back a little. He said,

597
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 3: absolutely not. We asked you the same question and you said, yes,

598
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: that there were people at NBC. That's What really worries

599
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: me that people with good intentions who are worried about

600
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 3: their boss, worried about their own career, are not trying

601
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 3: to be unprincipled, but maybe doing things that are unprincipled

602
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 3: in the spirit of self preservation.

603
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: I hope I'm wrong. I hope you're wrong.

604
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: I hope so too. And yet you know, I understand

605
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: it's human nature, right, some of this, right, which is

606
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: you're trying to You think, well, if I can just

607
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: survive the storm in the moment, then I can do

608
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: Then I can you know, if I can stay in

609
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: the room, you know, it'll it'll help in the long run,

610
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,720
Speaker 1: you know. And we're I mean, you know, the rationalization

611
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 1: for why you compromise a principle or compromise an ethic,

612
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: right like, and it makes sense until it doesn't, right,

613
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 1: until you've twisted yourself into a pretzel. And so I

614
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: don't know, But Marjorie, it's interesting you don't. Here's the

615
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: way I give hope on journalism. Okay, so young journalists,

616
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: I say, well, because I got my start in nineteen

617
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: ninety two, which was a time of terrible transition for

618
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 1: legacy media at the time. Right, you had newspaper consolidation.

619
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,799
Speaker 1: It was the beginning of the cable boom. Broadcast TV

620
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: was pulling back. It was very similar to this, and

621
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 1: then O. J. Simpson happened, and then the rise of

622
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: cable with internet as almost like an accelerant with it helped.

623
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: But it was a disruptive time, and as a young person,

624
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: I got a lot of opportunity that I wouldn't have

625
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 1: gotten if it hadn't been a disruptive time. So I do.

626
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,240
Speaker 1: That's how I give hope to younger journalists.

627
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 5: Okay, you want to hear my serious give hope to

628
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 5: younger journalism thing. What I usually say to people is.

629
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 2: We should say you were a big time columns.

630
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 5: I was a newspaper report and most of the people

631
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 5: on talk radio in Boston come from newspaper, not you,

632
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:46,919
Speaker 5: But I did.

633
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 1: And would you say, this is two big chapters you've

634
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: had in journalism. One was print and one was radio.

635
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: Is that how you put it, Marjorie?

636
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 5: Well, I did print until just a few years ago.

637
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 5: So I've been a newspaper person most.

638
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 4: Of my life.

639
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 5: And I added on the radio, you know, I'm a

640
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 5: divorce a and I needed the two jobs.

641
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: I was just going to say it's whatever. Print journalists.

642
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: Why did print journalists move to another medium?

643
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 5: Yeah?

644
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: Never, because the other mediums better. We all know writings better.

645
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,680
Speaker 1: Writing is the best of the mediums, right, you never

646
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: it yet? But why do you do other mediums?

647
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 5: It's money, money, yeah, But I tell the young journalists.

648
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 5: Gay Talise was a great writer. He wrote for the

649
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 5: New York Times. He wrote for a lot of places.

650
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 5: He wrote novels and books. But he wrote something called

651
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,360
Speaker 5: The Kingdom and the Power about the New York Times

652
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 5: years ago, maybe thirty thirty five years ago, and he

653
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 5: talked about how becoming a reporter enables young people, kids

654
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 5: from you know, middle class backgrounds, working class backgrounds like Talise.

655
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 5: Maybe they didn't go to the best schools, but they

656
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 5: can go become a newspaper reporter and they can meet

657
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 5: people and talk and ask questions to people.

658
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 4: They would never get a chance and any other opportunity.

659
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 5: Presidents, governors, mayors of cities, celebrities, to be able to

660
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 5: cover trials and fam as people. And I think that's

661
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 5: so true, and I think of when I look back

662
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 5: in newspapers what I got to do, and in radio too,

663
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 5: but in newspapers because you had to actually go to

664
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 5: the scene. I got experiences that I would never ever

665
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 5: have gotten working anywhere else. I think being a reporter

666
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 5: is one of the great jobs of all time. And plus,

667
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 5: you know, you could actually make a difference in people's lives.

668
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 4: And I think that that that's kind of neat.

669
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 1: You've Marjorie, You've worked all over New England, big markets

670
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:33,319
Speaker 1: in small markets.

671
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:35,280
Speaker 2: Is it?

672
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 1: You know it? I sort of live in this fantasy

673
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 1: world that I that it is ultimately as a as

674
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: a newspaper reporter, economist, that it is better to be

675
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: the big fish in the small pond. You really can

676
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: have bigger impact locally than trying to have you know,

677
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: Bob Woodward like impact nationally. Yeah, is that is that

678
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: your experience?

679
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 4: I think I think.

680
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 5: That's probably true. You know, I spent most of my

681
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 5: life working for the tabloid in town. Uh my former

682
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 5: husband worked for the Globe and they, you know, we

683
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 5: were so I'm so old.

684
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 4: They had a nepotism rule.

685
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,800
Speaker 1: You that's quite the mixed marriage, right, It was a

686
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: mixed people have Jews and Catholics exactly exactly.

687
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 5: I just say that, so people, don't you know know

688
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 5: that I could have been at the Globe, but I

689
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 5: wasn't at the Globe, you see, I just say that

690
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 5: to make myself puff myself up. But but but the

691
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 5: point is that, you know, you write something about somebody

692
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 5: that got really screwed in some way, and this is

693
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 5: the working class, blue collar paper was in all the courtrooms,

694
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 5: all the subways, all the buses. You wrote something with

695
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 5: someone that got screwed, and it would matter, you know,

696
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 5: that the checks would come in, or the phone calls

697
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 5: would come in, or the head of Charlie Baker.

698
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 4: I remember he called me.

699
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 5: When he used to be an administrator in the in

700
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,720
Speaker 5: the Weld administration, called me and said, you know, uh,

701
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 5: I'm going to fix.

702
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 4: This, you know.

703
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 5: And I did a lot of stories about child welfare,

704
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 5: which is no one wants to read those cases. So

705
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 5: it's it's a it's a wonderful, wonderful job. I would

706
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 5: never ever want to do anything else and be a

707
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,439
Speaker 5: newspaper reporter because of that.

708
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 3: Well, you know, in all fairness, Chuck, I think we

709
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 3: have to add when Marjorie saying, you know, writing about

710
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 3: people who got screwed, one of the people who Marjorie

711
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,840
Speaker 3: knows got screwed because of one of her columns.

712
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: Was me I was doing.

713
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 3: I was doing a ballot question in nineteen ninety against

714
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 3: the woman.

715
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: This is how you guys? Met is this how you guys?

716
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 5: We're not sure you doesn't remember I made question impression.

717
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 2: He doesn't even remember a.

718
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 3: Woman who was the doyen of the tax cutting movement

719
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: master since Barbara Anderson had a question on the ballot

720
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 3: and I was leading the opposition, and in an attempt

721
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 3: to throw the vote to Barbara Anderson, Marjorie wrote a

722
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 3: column saying one the opponent that be me drove a

723
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 3: Volvo station wagon. I never owned a Valvo station one.

724
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 2: We did. After the column, I'm not done yet. It

725
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 2: was two years later. Why don't you tell them what

726
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: you said I wore, Marjorie?

727
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 4: Why don't you Oh, I said he wore whale pants.

728
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 1: Yeah in Nantucket, like applying, he's like a vineyard nine.

729
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 3: So let's not say like Marjorie's career helping me oppressed

730
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 3: because I was the oppress.

731
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: Ee, yeh, from Cambridge, I know, I know the oppressed oppressed.

732
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 4: Yeah that's right, from Cambridge. That's right, that's right.

733
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 1: So Jim, your path to this is is you were

734
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: politics really activists at this? I mean you both there's

735
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,719
Speaker 1: two ways into this world, right, what is you know

736
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,720
Speaker 1: starting you know, the small newspaper Falls River right going

737
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: through and there's you know you were on the activism side.

738
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's so many things. I mean, this is

739
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: why I think your partnership is so good in that

740
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: you had different experiences. In that way you can you

741
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 1: can attack sort of issues and questions and even media

742
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: coverage from both of those perspectives. What did you think

743
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:57,320
Speaker 1: of the media when you were an activist.

744
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 2: That it never treated us as fairly should.

745
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: Like everybody else feels about the media, right, Like, yeah,

746
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: tell you something.

747
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 3: This is beyond dispute, and this is something that I'm

748
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 3: going to take to my grave with me. It's nobody's

749
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 3: fault in I can't even mention because she's.

750
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 2: Gonna mock me.

751
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 3: I led what I believe was probably the single largest

752
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 3: pro taxt rally maybe in the history.

753
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 4: You wanted to raise everybody's tax.

754
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: So that you jumped into the Boston harbor and pulled

755
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: the tea out. Is that what you're saying.

756
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 3: I'd say that's a variation on a theme. And unfortunately,

757
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 3: even though it was the biggest rally ever. It is

758
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 3: a bad example because it's not the media's fault. You

759
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: know what happened on the exact same day as a rally,

760
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 3: tim and square And as a result we got to

761
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 3: paragraph everybody.

762
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: You got to pick which is the lead today.

763
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 3: But one experience that neither of you had, and it

764
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 3: wasn't just doing politics, because they did do politics.

765
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: You know, ran campaigns, You ran for government. Well, I

766
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 2: ran for governor for months. No, but that wasn't these stories.

767
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 3: I ran for governor for a month in nineteen ninety

768
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 3: but I did run, unfortunately, and won a city council

769
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 3: seat in Cambridge. And while both of you may mock

770
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 3: me for that.

771
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 1: That people's you must have been the conservative let's compared

772
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: to everybody.

773
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 3: Let me tell you something, it was one of the

774
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 3: most valuable experiences in terms of what we do now.

775
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 3: And even though it's a low level kind of thing.

776
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 3: When you're on the other side of the fence and

777
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 3: you're getting screamed at by not screamed abt ask tough

778
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 3: questions by reporters, scream that by constituents, your one's ability

779
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 3: to understand what the hell you're doing when you're asking

780
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 3: the questions is enhanced a millionfold and so well, it

781
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 3: was a horrible experience in many ways because the people

782
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 3: in the city Council on Cambridge is sort of believe

783
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 3: they're in the United States Senate, not in the But

784
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 3: it was really value I wouldn't really say it was

785
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,480
Speaker 3: a really valuable tool in terms of what it is

786
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 3: we do.

787
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: Now do you worry Jim that let me ask you this,

788
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 1: would you if you know, if you were knowing what

789
00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 1: you know now, would you still run for office? Would

790
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: you still have tried it? Or do you look at

791
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: how hard it is to sort of not get you know,

792
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: pilloried and docksed and all these things, or you know,

793
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: your families get targeted. I mean the Tom Tilli situation.

794
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: I tell people about this one all the time. Now

795
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: now that Tillis chose to retire. You know, he was

796
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: going to vote against Hagseth and he didn't. And one

797
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: of the reasons is his family was getting harassed. It

798
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 1: wasn't just him, and it was people that hadn't They

799
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 1: didn't run for office. He ran for office, and he

800
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 1: just decided to back off of that. The way we

801
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: the pugilistic nature of politics today, where there is no

802
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: there seems to be no rules, right, and the elected

803
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: official is seen as a dehumanized figure. How do we

804
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: encourage people like you to run again? You know, how

805
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: would you encourage yourself to run again? Or are you

806
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: kind of fearless about it?

807
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 2: Well, I'd like I'm fearless about nothing.

808
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 3: By the way, let me clear about that, to be

809
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 3: totally honest. But you know I was going to have

810
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 3: I was going to answer your question by saying, which

811
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 3: is true? When I did political stuff, particularly against the

812
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 3: very popular anti text leader, I got death threats all

813
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 3: the time in our earlier career on the radio, death threats.

814
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not trying to show.

815
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 1: Braver now, I understand them. I've been getting them for

816
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: a while, and you sort of shrug them off because

817
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 1: you'll know that is nine percent of them aren't true, right, Differently,

818
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:25,959
Speaker 1: worry about the one percent is the.

819
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 3: Kids and the family, the wife, the husband, the kids

820
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 3: that don't And I don't know what the answer because

821
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 3: one of the things we talk about a lot on

822
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 3: the show is how leaderless we are in lots of ways.

823
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 3: And if one believes one is a person and principle,

824
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 3: look it up. Believe you'd like to think you'd take

825
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 3: the opportunity, but I can't answer, honestly say to you

826
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: that I'd be willing to do it in this sort

827
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 3: of environment because it's dangerous in lots of ways. Which

828
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 3: is I'm almost embarrassed to say those words, but I

829
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 3: think that's unfortunately.

830
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 1: Real, Marjorie. This is my biggest concern that we have driven.

831
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: It is such a toxic place that good people are

832
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: fone around.

833
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: Listen.

834
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 4: I could not agree with you more.

835
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 5: I can't believe how insane things have gotten. It's really

836
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 5: bad now. But I think it started to start with

837
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 5: Obama or did it even start before then?

838
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny, you could keep going back. I've

839
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: thought about this, right, which is, you know when did

840
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: it start? You know, we could go to New Kngridge, right,

841
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: you could go to the Clintons and then you could say, well,

842
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: it goes back for the Robert Borke. Right, some people

843
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 1: on the right will bring up Robert Borke and that

844
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: that was a character assassination. You can keep going, but

845
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:45,439
Speaker 1: we've been slowly increasing the character assassination quotient in politics. Yeah,

846
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: all you know, almost on a steady rise. Right and

847
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: to here we are. You know in what I hope

848
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: is that we can't get that it can't get worse. Well,

849
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: that's my optimism.

850
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 3: I know this is the dread of local angule as

851
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 3: Mardie would call it, But don't you think it was?

852
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 3: The Willy Horton ads were a pretty major moment against

853
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,840
Speaker 3: the Caucus. And by the way, I hope people realize

854
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 3: while they blame it on George H. W. Bush, I

855
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 3: believe the first person to talk about Willy Horton was

856
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 3: Al Gore in the primary against.

857
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: Was right and he did it the New York primary.

858
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 5: John willy Horton was a black guy ken furloughs and

859
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,799
Speaker 5: then ended up going out in a weekend furlough and

860
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 5: raping a woman. And that was something to Caucus did

861
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 5: for lifers, would give them these weekend furloughs for good behavior,

862
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 5: and I think that was the end.

863
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: Was it not?

864
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 2: Well? Then the commercials Willy fort Horton with a who's

865
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 2: a black man? A close up on his.

866
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 1: I think the I think the person who made the

867
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: was it Floyd Little was the guy's name. I think

868
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,720
Speaker 1: it was an independent. It's one of the first super

869
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: PACs and we didn't call him then that it was

870
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: an independent The actual ad itself was not paid for

871
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: by Bush or the RNC. It was an independent committee. Right,

872
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: it was this there was. But by the way, when

873
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: you watch the ad today, most people would be like,

874
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 1: really that was contra you're a meeting, like because we

875
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: see such garbage now you know that. But at the

876
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: time it sort of it it crossed the whatever the

877
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: line is, as Bill Hurt said in broadcast News, they

878
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: keep moving the sucker, right, you know, with the line

879
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: whatever this line is. But look, I actually go back

880
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 1: to Roger Ales and Roger Stone in Nixon and that

881
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: if you actually look, you know, ultimately the entire invention

882
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: of the liberal media phrase liberal media didn't you don't.

883
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 1: I believe you cannot find liberal media as a phrase

884
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: before nineteen seventy two, and that it was the Watergate coverage.

885
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: It was the initial sort of I don't know if

886
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: it was Buchanan that came up at the line or

887
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,280
Speaker 1: you know, one of the Nixon operatives is or Ales.

888
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 1: And you know, Roger Als' entire professional career after leaving

889
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: Nixon was about exploiting this concept that the liberal media

890
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,800
Speaker 1: is out to get conservatives, and it began with Richard Nixon.

891
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: And and you know, for me, I look at it,

892
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: it may be that this is the end of the

893
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: long arc. This is the the ultimate and the fact

894
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: that Roger Stone's still alive, right, He's the only one

895
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: left of that Nixon ar are still alive. But these

896
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,879
Speaker 1: were the people, and so many of them are derivatives

897
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 1: that are left where you know, here they are with

898
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: you know, Roger als built the ecosystem that Donald Trump

899
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 1: exploited to sort of finally right every wrong that they

900
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: believe happened to Nixon. So I kind of think this

901
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 1: is the endpoint of that. But that's just the thesis

902
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:33,320
Speaker 1: I've been working on lately.

903
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: You know, Can I get back to one thing you asked,

904
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 2: you know about running for office kind of thing. With

905
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: all the scary stuff that's happening, how about the flip side.

906
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 2: I don't know if we've ever talked to you about this.

907
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: I continued to be amazed that that other than the.

908
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 3: For example, let's take senators, Republican senators who probably can't

909
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 3: read a stop sign, you know, like a Tuberville or

910
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 3: whatever the hell's name is that kind of a guy.

911
00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: But those who were relatively intelligent, and.

912
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: Tom Cotton, who got you know, who was educated at.

913
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 3: Cabridge how well, and he's gone right, yeah, So how

914
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 3: do they live with themselves? I mean, I don't know.

915
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,360
Speaker 3: I mean I'm not naive enough to say all of

916
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:14,960
Speaker 3: a sudden, the majority are gonna wake up. They got

917
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: to go home and face their kids, their grandkids, their spouse.

918
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 3: I always think, if you're a politician, do you think

919
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 3: about the first paragraph of your obituary in your paper?

920
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 3: What's it going to say, Trump's sycophant voted to cut

921
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 3: a trillion dollars from Medicaid voted?

922
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 1: What if that isn't the media?

923
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 2: Like?

924
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 1: What if I read a very disturbing stat today that

925
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: seventy percent of the country is unaware that Donald Trump

926
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: has a cryptocurrency business.

927
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 2: I can't even what did you? Yeah, go ahead, you

928
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 2: see what I mean?

929
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 1: Like, so you know, it may be that those that

930
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,800
Speaker 1: know will know, and those that don't won't.

931
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 5: I am such a believer in that, Chuck Todd I

932
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 5: was telling Jim I was talking to somebody over the

933
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 5: weekend who used to be in politic dish in Boston

934
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 5: his whole life, and he was we were talking about

935
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 5: the Trump administration. He said, well, you know, look at

936
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 5: Marco Rubio. He's been a stand up guy.

937
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 2: And I said, the.

938
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 5: Guy who's been in fifty years in politics, And I said,

939
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 5: Marco Rubio, who was the guy that stood up for

940
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 5: US aid that would you know, have the the the

941
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 5: HIV virus and food for starving children, all the things

942
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,960
Speaker 5: that they did, disease prevention and stuff like that. Who's

943
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 5: now done a complete one eighty and he has been

944
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 5: the architect of getting rid of us AI D.

945
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 4: And I thought that.

946
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 5: This person doesn't know about Marco Rubio is really upsetting

947
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,759
Speaker 5: to me. And I don't know the explanation, because he

948
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 5: is a smart guy.

949
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 4: I think that.

950
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 5: But I think that the Fox News and social media

951
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 5: has been really effective. We get text here we are

952
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 5: when an NPR station. We get text messages all day long.

953
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,240
Speaker 5: We get text matches just from people who basically believe,

954
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,360
Speaker 5: you know, there are little men walking on on Mars.

955
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,800
Speaker 5: It's crazy stuff and they believe it. And I think, wow,

956
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 5: what's going on here?

957
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 3: So some little men walking in Mars, some little men

958
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 3: walking on Inside RFK Junior's brain, those are the.

959
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 4: Ones that might be little men walking.

960
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: Well, this is a good transition. This is a good transition.

961
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: When you guys began your career together, the word Kennedy

962
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: meant something. Yeah in Massachusetts, Uh, in a way that

963
00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: was just you know, it was still a gold brand. Yes,

964
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: it wasn't perfect, and no, Joe Kennedy the second couldn't

965
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 1: get elected governor. You know, it wasn't it wasn't you know,

966
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 1: it wasn't as if it was an automatic, but there

967
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,439
Speaker 1: was a reverence that went with it. Is it done done?

968
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 2: Now?

969
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: Is this thing?

970
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 3: Like?

971
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 1: Is this the are we at like the Freuling Housen stage?

972
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 1: Like there for those of you who are like not

973
00:51:56,600 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 1: total American history dorks like me, Freuling Housen, there was

974
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: a Freuling Housend in Congress I think for like two

975
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 1: hundred straight years out of New Jersey. You know, it

976
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 1: was this constant like sort of regional family name, and

977
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: you know, I think they were signers, and I think

978
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 1: there was a Rodney Finland Housen in the nineties in

979
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: New Jersey. And eventually sort of you know, the names

980
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: go away and all of that. Where would you put

981
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, we saw Joe Kennedy the third lose a

982
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,759
Speaker 1: primary right, So a Democratic primary. So and this was

983
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: before RFK is crazy. What's what's the state of the

984
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: Kennedy brand?

985
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: What do you think, Marjorie Well?

986
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 5: I think that even when we began, when Ted Kennedy

987
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 5: was still alive, and people might argue that in terms

988
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 5: of getting legislation passed, he was one of the most

989
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 5: successful settlers ever. But even then, when you would talk

990
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 5: about Ted Kennedy, the messages would come through about chap

991
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 5: equintic And I think, as as.

992
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 1: I know, is that an original sin? Is this an

993
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 1: original sin? That boy talk about a do over in life?

994
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 1: What would have happened if he'd just I think like

995
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,919
Speaker 1: I choked, I fessed up. I was afraid. I looked

996
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: out for myself first. I didn't want her to die.

997
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 1: I just I choked. I panicked, you know, And if that's.

998
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 5: The better, it might have been better if you'd done that.

999
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 5: Because he never admitted it. I thought the rest of

1000
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 5: his life was like the as we Catholic sate to

1001
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 5: venance for letting a woman die in that car and

1002
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 5: going off and going back to that hotel and sleeping

1003
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,880
Speaker 5: and getting up in the morning and having breakfast.

1004
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 4: And knowing that she was in that car.

1005
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 5: I thought, I think he was trying to make up

1006
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 5: for it, but because he never admitted it, you know,

1007
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 5: you can't you get a tone right, and he never did.

1008
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: The stories I hear about him in the nineties and

1009
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: the aunts I went to school with somebody who had

1010
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: no health insurance, and he put them This was a

1011
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: student at GW and he put him on staff to

1012
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 1: get him healthcare, to get him the right. They've extended

1013
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 1: this person's life an extra five years. Like the number

1014
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 1: of stories like that that you'd hear that nobody he

1015
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: didn't ask for attention. You're right, it almost feels like,

1016
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 1: you know, that was the inner Catholic in him. I've

1017
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: got I've got to I've got to right the wrong.

1018
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, I always thought that. I don't know if that's true,

1019
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 5: but I always thought that.

1020
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 3: Let me give you a personal story if I can,

1021
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 3: about Kennedy's effectiveness, which doesn't answer your question, but does

1022
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 3: speak to how incredible he was. I was the president

1023
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 3: of the union that represented legal services lawyer secretaries and

1024
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 3: paralegals from Ronald Reagan proposed abolition of legal services for

1025
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 3: the poor, and the two champions were a freshman in

1026
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 3: the house, Barney Frank and Ted Kennedy, and so a

1027
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,400
Speaker 3: bunch of we were affiliated with the United Order Workers.

1028
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 3: A bunch of us met with Ted Kennedy, first time

1029
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:49,560
Speaker 3: any of us had ever been in office with him.

1030
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 3: We're all, for the most part, from all over the country.

1031
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 3: He says, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that,

1032
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 3: and I'm going to meet with the senator whose name

1033
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,959
Speaker 3: I forget, from Texas, who is wildly anti legal service,

1034
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 3: is not talk to him. And so we say thank you,

1035
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 3: we got in the hole, and we're all saying that

1036
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 3: was great, But I mean, really, I mean, the guy

1037
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 3: is the most right wing, vicious, anti poor person. Okay,

1038
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 3: next day we go back to his office. Who do

1039
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 3: we see in the distance walking arm in arm down

1040
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 3: the hole but the Texas Center and Kennedy and we're

1041
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 3: still incredulous. Nothing's going to happen. The vote comes up

1042
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 3: the next day.

1043
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: I forgot.

1044
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 3: It was an amendment about class actions or something around

1045
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 3: legal services lawyers around the country, and we have a

1046
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:34,240
Speaker 3: the word we need. I can't remember what the exact

1047
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 3: vote was, but this guy's vote, he has still not voted.

1048
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 3: The guy from Texas was the critical vote that was

1049
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 3: going to was going to kill our ability to do

1050
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 3: class actions. You know what happened. Didn't show up for

1051
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 3: the vote, and it was totally a function of Ted

1052
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 3: Kennedy getting a guy who had nothing but hatred for

1053
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:56,880
Speaker 3: legal services for the poor to dissa exactly because he

1054
00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:58,320
Speaker 3: had respect for Ted Tenny.

1055
00:55:58,360 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 2: So that maybe a.

1056
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 3: Small thing, but he was really one of the most

1057
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 3: effective characters ever.

1058
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 2: Now and answer your question.

1059
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 3: Even though young Joe Kennedy lost to Ed Markey, I

1060
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:09,720
Speaker 3: am among those who thought he'd beat Ed Markey.

1061
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 1: I did too.

1062
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 3: Expect for Markey, but I think he would generational kind

1063
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:15,240
Speaker 3: of thing. I'm not sure he's done.

1064
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I haven't spoken to him in recent times.

1065
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:17,880
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1066
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 3: But he is a really skillful, talented young guy. And

1067
00:56:22,120 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 3: I think it's maybe too early to write off the

1068
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:25,279
Speaker 3: whole family name.

1069
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,080
Speaker 1: I think that's fair. I mean, you would you would think.

1070
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 1: I wonder how much damage Bobby Kennedy Junior is doing. Ah,

1071
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 1: I think he's look I am irrational about I'm pretty

1072
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,360
Speaker 1: irrational about him. And I think I went off on

1073
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 1: your show once you did. I mean, I just find it.

1074
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:46,240
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm gross I'm just sickened by this, intentionally

1075
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: watching kids die, having measles, like letting the outbreak happen.

1076
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 1: I'm just I just like, who does this? Who does this?

1077
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 1: Just shocking to me?

1078
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 4: Aren't we saying that almost about everything that is stopping?

1079
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 5: I know who talks about Alcatraz, you know, alligator Alcatraz

1080
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 5: and seems to repels merchandise. Apparently now you can buy it,

1081
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 5: could buy the merchandise. And who thinks it's okay to

1082
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 5: throw to give million take away the healthcare of millions

1083
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,439
Speaker 5: and millions of people so you can give tax breaks.

1084
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 3: To I'll tell you who thinks okay, everybody? Because nobody's

1085
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 3: doing anything, are they. We talk about this all the time,

1086
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 3: Chuck on the show, and I'm sure with you too.

1087
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 3: You know, you raise the tuition for public universities in

1088
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 3: Paris and there are a million people on the street.

1089
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 3: The next day, you take twelve million people off healthcare

1090
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:49,520
Speaker 3: or whatever it is. Let's go on the list the

1091
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:54,680
Speaker 3: poor people who are wonderful members of our communities on

1092
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 3: and we tweet about it or.

1093
00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 2: X about it or whatever the hell we do. I

1094
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 2: think the answer is we're.

1095
00:58:01,080 --> 00:58:04,439
Speaker 1: Look, I got I have family, members who don't look

1096
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 1: like you and me who are American citizens who were

1097
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 1: detained off a plane and had to prove their citizenship.

1098
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,880
Speaker 1: Oh my god, And this just happened recently, and it's

1099
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:19,360
Speaker 1: it's you're just sitting there, You're just you know, I

1100
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: think it's because until it happens to you, you don't,

1101
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 1: you know. It's like, you know, what's the great poem?

1102
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 1: First they came for the you know, the Jews, and

1103
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 1: I just you know, said, well, it's not me or

1104
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: whatever it is. You know that that lioselle poem. That

1105
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: and and that's I guess the world we're living in.

1106
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: This is where I always vacillate. Do we are we

1107
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: in a Is this a five alarm fire, a seven

1108
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: alarm fire? Or where I try to end up? Hey,

1109
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,280
Speaker 1: we've done this before. We survived George Wallace, we survived

1110
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: Joe McCarthy, we survived Charles Lindberg, we survived Civil War,

1111
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: we survived you know, I I vacillate, right and I

1112
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 1: choose right now. I choose to make the case we've

1113
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: been through this before, we know how to and this

1114
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 1: should give you comfort that we know how to get

1115
00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:09,960
Speaker 1: out of it again.

1116
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 3: But can I tell you we have had this discussion

1117
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 3: with three relatively reputable historians in recent times, Heather Cox,

1118
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 3: Richardson ken Burns, and Darris Kurrn's Goodwin. Every single one

1119
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 3: of them's answer to our question is exactly yours. And

1120
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 3: I'll mean this with any because I have huge respect

1121
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:30,160
Speaker 3: for all three of them. I'm not sure any of

1122
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 3: the three of them believe it.

1123
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 1: I think we asked, you know, I don't know if

1124
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: I believe it. I choose to believe it. That's why

1125
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: I emphasize.

1126
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 3: That's why they asked Dars and she said exactly that

1127
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 3: I need or I choose to believe it.

1128
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 4: Who's the president who's been this corrupt? Who's the president

1129
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 4: this live as much as he has?

1130
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:49,720
Speaker 5: You know, I was listening to one of my favorite

1131
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 5: podcasts besides of course, the Check podcast This Morning and Daily,

1132
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 5: and they were talking about a man who had uncovered

1133
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 5: cigarette smoking. He did big expose on cigarettes, and then

1134
01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:06,120
Speaker 5: they were threatening. Then I think it was again CBS

1135
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 5: and CBS people know has just knuckled under to Donald Trump.

1136
01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 5: They're going to give him sixteen the whole Parent corporation

1137
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 5: par I'm not going to give him sixteen million dollars

1138
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 5: to his library to get out of this lawsuit. This

1139
01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 5: this this frivolous, ridiculous lawsuit. But anyway, he was saying that,

1140
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 5: the interviewer said to him, well, it was the same

1141
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 5: thing that they that you were under pressure not to

1142
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 5: tell the truth about cigarettes from the cigarette companies. As

1143
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 5: what's going on now? And he said no, because then

1144
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 5: it was the cigarette companies. Today it's the President of

1145
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 5: the United States, and it's a Justice Department and the

1146
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 5: wheels of power and ice agencies and doing all these

1147
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 5: This is this is the power of the federal government,

1148
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 5: which is more powerful than any other entity in the country.

1149
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 4: Picking on is.

1150
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,959
Speaker 1: This administration is now realizing you reap what you sew.

1151
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,600
Speaker 1: The Epstein story, right, they create this, you know, they

1152
01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:13,600
Speaker 1: they all make money Dan Bongino, cash Betel, they you know, Pambondi,

1153
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:16,240
Speaker 1: They all make political hay and and get their viral

1154
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 1: clips and get their notoriety by by flirting with this

1155
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 1: Epstein story. And then they're the deep state. Yeah, you know,

1156
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 1: and here we are. But you know it is damaging

1157
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 1: because guess what, who do you believe, Jim, Do you

1158
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: believe the government on Epstein or not.

1159
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 5: Uh.

1160
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 2: I honestly don't know. I don't know what I believe.

1161
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 2: And answer isn't that the problem, isn't it?

1162
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:43,800
Speaker 1: I do not believe, you know. I'm one of those

1163
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 1: who believes that if it were as if it were

1164
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 1: is uh, if what is alleged is true, there's no

1165
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,919
Speaker 1: way this these secrets hold, right, Maxwell would have used

1166
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: it to get out of going to Jay Okay, So

1167
01:01:59,200 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: I just I don't think there there. I think all

1168
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 1: these people hung out with him. I think they all

1169
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 1: knew you. Oh yeah, Jeffrey's a little bit this right,

1170
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: but you know, but he gives me free rides and

1171
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 1: his plane or I rather like hanging out at his resort. Man,

1172
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: it's really fun to get served pina coladas by these

1173
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: scantily clad girls.

1174
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 3: You know.

1175
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: Do I think all of that was true? You know?

1176
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:24,120
Speaker 1: But the next level of it, right, like, look, if

1177
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 1: there was another Prince Andrew, wouldn't we know? Yeah, That's

1178
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 1: sort of where I'm at. That said, I understand if

1179
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 1: most people go I don't know what to believe anymore,

1180
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 1: because the same people who were telling me don't believe

1181
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: what the government's telling you are now the government and

1182
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: they're telling you believe what the government is telling you.

1183
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: So let me pose a question return in the other direction.

1184
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 3: Let's assume that what was exposed were unsavory conducts. Talk

1185
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:56,160
Speaker 3: about euphemisms with Bill Clinton and Donald Trump. I would

1186
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:58,919
Speaker 3: posit that Bill Clinton would never be invited to any

1187
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 3: event again for the rest of his life, and Donald

1188
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 3: Trump would be the same as if nothing had happened

1189
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 3: the day before.

1190
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 2: Is that a fair And.

1191
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: I'll give you another one. You caught Donald Trump's line

1192
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 1: on Friday where he said I hate all Democrats. Of course,

1193
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: Barack Obama had said that after the passage of Obamacare,

1194
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,360
Speaker 1: I hate all Republicans. What would happen?

1195
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 2: That is so true? That was on July fourth.

1196
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:24,880
Speaker 3: By the way, didn't this didn't Carolyn leven or whoever

1197
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 3: was say this is going to be a unifying things.

1198
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 2: This is a thing where he reaches out to other

1199
01:03:30,160 --> 01:03:30,960
Speaker 2: than Democrats.

1200
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 1: This idea that you only govern for those who support you.

1201
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: I mean, this is really the virus that I really

1202
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I did you see the axiom? I'mous.

1203
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: Here's something I've been curious your guys take on.

1204
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 2: Marjorie.

1205
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 1: I'll let you take the first bite. I assume you

1206
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: saw the Axios newsletter this morning, Mike Allen. They had

1207
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: the little nugget about how they had these anonymous Democratic

1208
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 1: members of Congress who said, hey, man, the base is

1209
01:03:56,560 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: really fired up. They they don't care if we break

1210
01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 1: rules to fight Trump. In fact, they don't understand why

1211
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: we're You know, if you have to start a fire,

1212
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: get shot whatever, it is like, fight fire with fire.

1213
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 1: And this has always been my concern that a second

1214
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: Trump term was going to not change just the Republicans,

1215
01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,680
Speaker 1: but it would change the Democrats. And in the zeal

1216
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:24,479
Speaker 1: with defeating trump Ism, how many rules are how many

1217
01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 1: norms and rules is it okay to break if it's

1218
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 1: in defiance to Trump, right like? And what kind of

1219
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 1: slippery slope art could we be ending up on. It's

1220
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: a concern I have, yeah, but I understand the Democratic anger.

1221
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 2: That's a tough an answer. I don't think well.

1222
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 5: I was going to say, maybe I'm being Pollyanna here

1223
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 5: in Massachusetts, but I want some leadership for the Democrats.

1224
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 5: I don't think that they should lower themselves to steal

1225
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 5: and cheat and lie and do what Donald Trump has done.

1226
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm with you. I think Kamala Harrison

1227
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: I got as many votes as she got because they're

1228
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 1: the party that isn't doing that.

1229
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I hope so, but I don't know. I don't know.

1230
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 5: I think the Democrats have going to do something you

1231
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 5: mentioned Kamala Harris. I think the Democrats have got to

1232
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 5: do more to recognize talent. You know, you don't want

1233
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 5: to keep putting up people. You know, Barack Obama was wrong.

1234
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 5: Biden should have run against Donald Trump the first time around,

1235
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 5: not Hillary Clinton that was.

1236
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:25,800
Speaker 1: So un anybody else, or it should have been an

1237
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:29,080
Speaker 1: open primary. Should maybe Barack Obama shouldn't have been the

1238
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 1: one to decide who. Let the voters decide. Had the

1239
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 1: establishment decided in know seven, Barack Obama never would have

1240
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:36,160
Speaker 1: been the nominee.

1241
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 2: That's a good point.

1242
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:40,240
Speaker 5: I also think it was too bad that the Democrats.

1243
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 5: You know, Kamala Harris was a tough candidate when she

1244
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:45,800
Speaker 5: ran for president, she was eliminated very quickly. I think

1245
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,520
Speaker 5: she I mean, obviously there was sexism, there was racism,

1246
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 5: but in general, I don't think she's that talented a

1247
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 5: politician to have growne up against Donald Trump. And I

1248
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 5: wish they'd had a primary then with the Josh Shapiro, etc.

1249
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 5: So anyway, that's I'm getting off.

1250
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,440
Speaker 2: For break is rule breaking, the rule breaking.

1251
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:04,360
Speaker 3: I understand the rule breaking that you don't want the

1252
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 3: Democrats across. I'd like them to break some rules. I

1253
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 3: mean the example, I'll give you an example, Martin and

1254
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 3: I talk about it quite regularly. A bunch of years ago.

1255
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 3: I'm sure you'll remember this, Chuck, they had to sit in,

1256
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 3: and I thought they had to sit in because wouldn't

1257
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 3: allow voting guns.

1258
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:23,840
Speaker 2: Do you remember how the sit in, this principled sit

1259
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:25,040
Speaker 2: in were breaking.

1260
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:26,600
Speaker 1: They were breaking house rules?

1261
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 2: You're right? Do you remember remember how the sit in ended?

1262
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:35,160
Speaker 3: It was a holiday weekends and they ended they ended

1263
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:37,040
Speaker 3: the sit in because they had to.

1264
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 2: Get home for the holidays.

1265
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,480
Speaker 3: I would argue a little more rule breaking might be

1266
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 3: a thing.

1267
01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 1: Okay, So I get that. That's that's you know, as

1268
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,439
Speaker 1: as John Lewis love to call it, good trouble yo truck.

1269
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 1: But you know, we all know there's this line. You know, look,

1270
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:56,920
Speaker 1: there's a whole group of democratic consultants who want to

1271
01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:59,439
Speaker 1: come up there like, hey, the right wing is doing

1272
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:03,000
Speaker 1: this information, maybe we auto too, you know what I mean? Like,

1273
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: that's the slippery slip I'm worried about.

1274
01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 2: I don't think that's true.

1275
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 5: I think you wonder why the Democrats aren't better at

1276
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 5: certain things. The old line about how you know the

1277
01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 5: Democrats are showing up with scissors or a gunfight, or

1278
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:17,200
Speaker 5: knives at a gunfight, or the Republicans were brilliant enough

1279
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 5: after Roe v. Wade to spend twenty or thirty years

1280
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:23,640
Speaker 5: organizing the judicial pipeline which has brought us the Supreme

1281
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 5: Court we have now. I don't know why Democrats are

1282
01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 5: better at those kinds of things, why we get out smarted,

1283
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 5: why we didn't know so much about Project twenty twenty

1284
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:38,919
Speaker 5: five before the election, or maybe people didn't didn't care.

1285
01:07:39,000 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 5: But the Democrats are lousy I think at messaging to

1286
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 5: meant too much.

1287
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 2: But even when they're good, I mean, look at this.

1288
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 3: I'm hesitant to be critical of these two things because

1289
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 3: so many people saw them as great moments in political history.

1290
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 3: Corey Booker stands up without paying for twenty six hours

1291
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:00,000
Speaker 3: or whatever he did and gave a speech.

1292
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 2: I heard about an hour of it.

1293
01:08:01,240 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 3: Was pretty impressive eight hours or whatever for a king.

1294
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 3: Jeffreys and the words of Peggy Lee that you're not

1295
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 3: old enough to remember her famous song.

1296
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 2: Is that all there is at the end of both

1297
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 2: I saw it, and I don't have a better idea.

1298
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 2: Is that all there is?

1299
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 3: Long speeches that are substantive and well, and then you

1300
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:19,840
Speaker 3: go home.

1301
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:20,559
Speaker 2: I mean, what is it?

1302
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:22,600
Speaker 1: Well, here's what all? Right, I'll throw something else. I

1303
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 1: had Kristin Sultez Anderson on the show last week and

1304
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 1: she said something that I thought she just thinks we

1305
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:33,160
Speaker 1: were talking about mom Donnie right and the whole Why

1306
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 1: did he win? Did he win on substance or did

1307
01:08:34,960 --> 01:08:35,679
Speaker 1: he went on style?

1308
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 2: Right?

1309
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 1: Essentially right. I think there's still this debate was it

1310
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: substance or style? And her she is basically saying, look,

1311
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 1: he really is like Trump. He filled he filled all

1312
01:08:47,880 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: the empty space with entertainment, if you will. It was

1313
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 1: substantive entertainment. But oh, you know, I'm going to show

1314
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: up here, I'm going to show up there. Yes, it

1315
01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 1: was a little performative. She thinks you have to be

1316
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 1: performative now in order to be seen as legitimate. Right,

1317
01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:06,439
Speaker 1: And this is sort of a problem in the in

1318
01:09:06,479 --> 01:09:09,519
Speaker 1: the media space. Right, good journalism isn't enough?

1319
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 3: Are you?

1320
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 1: Do you know how to sell it. Are you a

1321
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: good influencer?

1322
01:09:12,240 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 2: Right?

1323
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 1: Do you know how to go viral? Do you know

1324
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:16,960
Speaker 1: how to do these things? And that that is the

1325
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:20,439
Speaker 1: skill set and that in some ways right right, this

1326
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 1: this comes back to like Donald Trump's been doing this

1327
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 1: this whole life. Suddenly the media ecosystem changed to his strength.

1328
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:34,080
Speaker 1: He didn't, he didn't change. It's just suddenly his style

1329
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:38,600
Speaker 1: of zero attention span suddenly was an asset when it

1330
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:41,000
Speaker 1: used to be a liability, right, Like you know, it

1331
01:09:41,080 --> 01:09:44,880
Speaker 1: was sort of we evolved towards we devolved arguably towards him,

1332
01:09:45,160 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 1: uh in our in the way we consume information. But

1333
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,040
Speaker 1: that was sort of her conclusion. She's not alone here,

1334
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 1: thinks that performance is more crucial than ever and performative

1335
01:09:57,320 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 1: being knowing how when do when to do these So

1336
01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm with you, Jim. I don't know what the hell

1337
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: either got you because you because here's the thing. It

1338
01:10:06,640 --> 01:10:08,479
Speaker 1: wasn't like it was going to lead to a new vote.

1339
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:10,640
Speaker 1: There wasn't like there was going to be this is

1340
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:14,679
Speaker 1: not mister Smith, that suddenly you've persuaded people who are watching,

1341
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:17,280
Speaker 1: all right, I'm now going to vote with him, Right,

1342
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:21,040
Speaker 1: Corey Booker wasn't changing a vote. A Kim Jeffreys wasn't

1343
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: changing a vote. They were there literally to raise money. Okay, Now,

1344
01:10:25,320 --> 01:10:27,320
Speaker 1: when Corey Booker did it, I think it it was

1345
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 1: the day of those special elections. It was April first,

1346
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 1: and it was the day of those special and I

1347
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 1: think it was an asset to turn out in Wisconsin

1348
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:39,040
Speaker 1: and in some of these places because it gave base Democrats. Hey,

1349
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 1: while you're getting ready to vote, are you excited about this?

1350
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:41,760
Speaker 2: Right?

1351
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:46,000
Speaker 1: So, I do think the theatrics. I think what we

1352
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 1: have to learn from Trump is that the theatrics do matter.

1353
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:52,920
Speaker 1: Filling the space matters, dominating the space matters. And you

1354
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:56,479
Speaker 1: know who understood this accidentally, It turns out who Bill Clinton?

1355
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, right, because Bill Clinton. We were assumed by

1356
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:03,240
Speaker 1: all things Bill Clinton. Bill Clinton loves to go to McDonald.

1357
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 1: Bill Clinton's going to a football game, Bill Clinton. You

1358
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 1: know this, Bill Clinton that, And it drove the right

1359
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 1: wing crazy, right, And yet it was profied arguably Ronald Reagan.

1360
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan, this, Ronald Reagan that, and it drove the

1361
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:18,400
Speaker 1: left wing crazy. You know, they couldn't seem to touch

1362
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:24,439
Speaker 1: this guy. I you know, I don't like to admit

1363
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:26,320
Speaker 1: that that's where we are. But maybe that is where

1364
01:11:26,360 --> 01:11:26,639
Speaker 1: we are.

1365
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:29,640
Speaker 3: Well, why can't you be? I mean, it's funny we

1366
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 3: have this exact same conversation. I don't know if you

1367
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 3: know nik Koaha, who's the podcast for a Vulture and

1368
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,240
Speaker 3: rights for New York Magazine too today.

1369
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 2: I don't even know how we got into this.

1370
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 3: Oh, because he had a conversation with mom Donnie about

1371
01:11:44,840 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 3: what podcasts he was listening to and whatever. And I

1372
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:53,520
Speaker 3: think we the three of us, agreed that the delivery

1373
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:56,880
Speaker 3: was hugely important with Mom Donnie. But I would argue,

1374
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 3: you can be both things. You can be substantive and

1375
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,920
Speaker 3: be good messager, as opposed to Donald Trump, who's an

1376
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:08,920
Speaker 3: incredible messenger and has no substance whatsoever. So I don't

1377
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:12,760
Speaker 3: think being I don't think valuing the quality of the

1378
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:15,719
Speaker 3: message and how it's delivered means you have to cheap

1379
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 3: one has to cheapen the policy prescription of the messenger.

1380
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:23,679
Speaker 4: We don't have one at the moment, do we.

1381
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 2: Well, we were just.

1382
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:26,519
Speaker 3: Talking about how Mom Donny, in a local way, if

1383
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 3: you like his politics, is doing both.

1384
01:12:28,320 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 2: You know.

1385
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 1: So look, I think Mom Donnie is an important you know.

1386
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 1: I think if he sparks, there isn't a necessary debate

1387
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: that the left needs to have about socialism versus capitalism.

1388
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 1: And I mean this like, I do think that there

1389
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:45,679
Speaker 1: is a true dispute. Is capitalism too broke, too broken

1390
01:12:45,720 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 1: to fix? Or can you know you know which side

1391
01:12:48,840 --> 01:12:51,679
Speaker 1: of this column you're on. I remember, remember Elizabeth Warrenson,

1392
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:54,400
Speaker 1: I'm a capitalist. I want to reform it. You know

1393
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:56,920
Speaker 1: something Bernie Sanders wouldn't say. It was her way of

1394
01:12:57,080 --> 01:13:01,960
Speaker 1: trying to differentiate herself between Sanders and her I think, mom,

1395
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:04,639
Speaker 1: Donnie's I do think this is an important debate because

1396
01:13:04,640 --> 01:13:07,720
Speaker 1: I do think we're in this weird moment with both

1397
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 1: parties where they're the only thing that keeps them together

1398
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 1: is cultural issues, not economic issues.

1399
01:13:15,680 --> 01:13:15,920
Speaker 2: Right.

1400
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:18,799
Speaker 1: The divide in the Republican Party is essentially free trade

1401
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:23,640
Speaker 1: versus protectionism or isolationism versus internationalism. And it's a real divide.

1402
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:26,640
Speaker 1: You know, they're papering over it. You know. Trump's personality

1403
01:13:27,040 --> 01:13:28,840
Speaker 1: I think in the Democratic Party really is it's sort

1404
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:33,599
Speaker 1: of socialism versus a technic what I call technocratic capitalism, right,

1405
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:36,360
Speaker 1: sort of that public private partnership, but for the most part,

1406
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:42,559
Speaker 1: a regulated free market, if you will, and we weren't

1407
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:44,600
Speaker 1: and the left wasn't having that debate. They're just so

1408
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:48,160
Speaker 1: consumed with not being divided, and maybe having this debate

1409
01:13:48,200 --> 01:13:48,799
Speaker 1: will be healthy.

1410
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1411
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,519
Speaker 5: Well, I also think, you know, there's a difference between

1412
01:13:54,560 --> 01:13:58,600
Speaker 5: being a democratic socialist and being a socialist, and socialism

1413
01:13:58,640 --> 01:14:02,960
Speaker 5: has got more to do great, I know, but that's

1414
01:14:03,000 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 5: sort of That's another problem is that we seem to

1415
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 5: have people that either don't care to learn about you know,

1416
01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:13,080
Speaker 5: they all detoke.

1417
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:14,640
Speaker 4: The line that we all read in college.

1418
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:17,880
Speaker 5: You know, this republic only survives if it's got it

1419
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:21,000
Speaker 5: educated electorate. And I don't know that we have an

1420
01:14:21,080 --> 01:14:23,120
Speaker 5: uneducated electorate, but I think we have an electricate doesn't

1421
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:26,320
Speaker 5: pay much attention. And I think that's a problem because

1422
01:14:26,360 --> 01:14:28,760
Speaker 5: you do have to kind of pay a little bit

1423
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:30,360
Speaker 5: more attention and know a little bit.

1424
01:14:30,240 --> 01:14:31,040
Speaker 4: More what's going on.

1425
01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 5: But I think socialism is to help with your childcare.

1426
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:38,760
Speaker 5: I don't think socialism is getting help on rents. You know,

1427
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 5: they could people can turn it.

1428
01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,760
Speaker 1: Well, actually, I would argue you're arguing that now helping

1429
01:14:44,840 --> 01:14:47,960
Speaker 1: with childcare isn't socialism, it's part of the the sort

1430
01:14:48,000 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 1: of the how government should assist with capitalism. Well, if

1431
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:55,120
Speaker 1: you're helping with childcare, you're helping people participate in the

1432
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:58,880
Speaker 1: private sect. Well versus socialism, it's everything right, Well.

1433
01:14:58,760 --> 01:14:59,960
Speaker 4: We've got social Security.

1434
01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:02,799
Speaker 5: I don't see that's socialism, right, we know what's complaining

1435
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:06,200
Speaker 5: about that or Medicare. So I think you have to

1436
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 5: people have to stand up and say this is not

1437
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 5: social Maybe you're right, maybe no one is too dim

1438
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:13,799
Speaker 5: witted to get the nuance I'm messaging.

1439
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:16,519
Speaker 2: The answer is don't use the terms. Is the is

1440
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:18,160
Speaker 2: the thing? I mean? You know what we talk a

1441
01:15:18,160 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 2: lot on the show. Do remember that.

1442
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:21,559
Speaker 3: I'm sure you've seen this the great Jimmy Kimmel thing

1443
01:15:21,560 --> 01:15:24,519
Speaker 3: when he sends a reporter at the Hollywood Boulevard and says,

1444
01:15:24,520 --> 01:15:27,640
Speaker 3: which do you prefer the Affordable Care Actor Obamacare? And

1445
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:30,800
Speaker 3: everybody hates Obamacare and Olibrett loves the Affordable Care Act.

1446
01:15:31,000 --> 01:15:32,840
Speaker 2: Marjorie says this on the show all the time.

1447
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 3: If you take away the alleged radical left slash democratic

1448
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:41,759
Speaker 3: socialist agenda and say, do you want more affordable childcare?

1449
01:15:41,800 --> 01:15:44,080
Speaker 3: Do you want some control on rent so I can

1450
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:45,960
Speaker 3: go down the whole mom dummy or whatever list?

1451
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:48,439
Speaker 5: Do you want to give taxes to rich people? Almost

1452
01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:52,040
Speaker 5: everybody got climate change. Almost everybody will not an agreement

1453
01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:53,640
Speaker 5: and say this is what I want. But if you

1454
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 5: then said either socialism or democratic socialism, and I don't

1455
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,840
Speaker 5: think anybody knows the difference except who are one of

1456
01:16:00,840 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 5: those things, You're going to lose a lot of people.

1457
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:06,000
Speaker 5: But on substance that debate should be had.

1458
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 3: And if you can avoid the terms without Donald Trump

1459
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 3: forcing you to use them, I think it'd be really

1460
01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 3: valuable for a party that doesn't quite know where it's going,

1461
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:13,439
Speaker 3: you know.

1462
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 1: Let me, for my entire professional life, Massachusetts has been

1463
01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:23,559
Speaker 1: sort of among the heartbeats of American politics, right, not

1464
01:16:23,640 --> 01:16:27,599
Speaker 1: the sole heartbeat, but among the heart beats multiple people

1465
01:16:27,680 --> 01:16:31,559
Speaker 1: coming running for president, multiple nominees, and my professional life.

1466
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:33,640
Speaker 1: So I'm always right in on both sides of the

1467
01:16:33,680 --> 01:16:37,080
Speaker 1: aisle we've had. We've had since nineteen eighty eight former

1468
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 1: governors of both parties of the state of Massachusetts been

1469
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 1: major party nominees. Is the brand of Massachusetts tainted too

1470
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:51,760
Speaker 1: much now for anybody to rise up and become a

1471
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:55,080
Speaker 1: nominee again? Is there like too match Buyer's remorse on

1472
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 1: the left and sort of Taxachusetts branding on the right.

1473
01:16:59,240 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 1: For for the next generations of Massachusetts leaders to populate

1474
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:07,320
Speaker 1: our national political debate, or or or am I buying

1475
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,719
Speaker 1: into the to the right wing and left wing spins

1476
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 1: of Massachusetts politics?

1477
01:17:14,120 --> 01:17:16,720
Speaker 3: Jim Well, you know, I guess I would say, on

1478
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:21,439
Speaker 3: one hand, a really smart, really competent, talented senator run

1479
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:24,080
Speaker 3: for president and she didn't even win her home state.

1480
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 3: That was Elizabeth Warren So and she's I think she's

1481
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:32,240
Speaker 3: a really talented person. But I mean, let's do both

1482
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,599
Speaker 3: sides of the equation. While there is no Republican Party

1483
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:38,720
Speaker 3: for him anymore, if Charlie Baker decided to run to

1484
01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:43,320
Speaker 3: represent that minority part of the Republican Party, he'd.

1485
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,040
Speaker 2: Do better than his former boss Bill Well did. So

1486
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:49,519
Speaker 2: at some point, hopefully trump Ism is going to die

1487
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:53,400
Speaker 2: and Republicanism comes back, there'd be a place for that

1488
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 2: kind of person.

1489
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 3: And I don't buy. I don't buy the notion. I

1490
01:17:57,520 --> 01:17:59,960
Speaker 3: know you're just asking a question, not positing an answer.

1491
01:18:00,520 --> 01:18:03,920
Speaker 3: I don't buy the notion that our influence is going

1492
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:07,360
Speaker 3: We have a lot of really talented politicians here, and

1493
01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:10,400
Speaker 3: I think the question is just Tommy, don't you.

1494
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 1: Think Martin Well, I've always thought the reason that is

1495
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:14,600
Speaker 1: for what it's worth is that the local politics is

1496
01:18:14,640 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 1: so well informed, you know, I mean I you know,

1497
01:18:19,439 --> 01:18:24,799
Speaker 1: every little township seems to produce some pretty quality people.

1498
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:27,840
Speaker 1: Not to say there isn't less quality people too, but

1499
01:18:27,960 --> 01:18:31,040
Speaker 1: that there is. And this is New England in general, right,

1500
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:34,120
Speaker 1: that there's a bit of a there's still a legacy

1501
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:39,080
Speaker 1: or an expectation that all politics is local and and

1502
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 1: and they kind of mean it in New England. Am

1503
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 1: I am I overlyingizing Marjorie Listen.

1504
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:48,760
Speaker 5: I have lived in Massachusetts my whole life, and I

1505
01:18:48,800 --> 01:18:52,040
Speaker 5: am more grateful than ever that I live in Massachusetts,

1506
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:59,799
Speaker 5: because I don't think people were outraged when Ramesa Osturk

1507
01:18:59,880 --> 01:19:03,680
Speaker 5: was taken off the street by masked ice people in

1508
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:08,479
Speaker 5: Somerville for writing co authoring on OpEd. When they took

1509
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:11,120
Speaker 5: that young man that was on the way to volleyball practice,

1510
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:14,000
Speaker 5: ice did and hauled him out of the car. When

1511
01:19:14,040 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 5: they broke a window in New Bedford with children in

1512
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:18,960
Speaker 5: the back seat to get people out of the car,

1513
01:19:19,000 --> 01:19:20,160
Speaker 5: people took to the streets.

1514
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:21,280
Speaker 4: They were outraged.

1515
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,760
Speaker 5: If you're a gay person in Massachusetts, I don't think

1516
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 5: you have to be afraid to live here. You know,

1517
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:30,840
Speaker 5: it's tough for trans people. But it's better here than

1518
01:19:30,880 --> 01:19:33,800
Speaker 5: there's a lot of other places. You have people like

1519
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:37,040
Speaker 5: more Heally when she was Attorney General, and Andrea Campbell,

1520
01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:40,719
Speaker 5: the journey General now who are taking Trump to court

1521
01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:43,960
Speaker 5: on all these outrageous things. We have some very talented

1522
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:48,080
Speaker 5: politicians here. We have a very good school system here.

1523
01:19:48,120 --> 01:19:51,080
Speaker 5: If your kid is disabled, you may have to fight.

1524
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:54,120
Speaker 1: To get always been, I mean, it's always been. Public

1525
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 1: school rankings, Massachusetts is always number one.

1526
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,559
Speaker 5: I think a lot of people would be lucky to

1527
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 5: live here here. It's very expensive to live here, tough

1528
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:05,760
Speaker 5: to buy a house here. But I'm really proud of Massachusetts.

1529
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 2: We also have a mayor on our show tomorrow who

1530
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:10,679
Speaker 2: kicked Congress's as a couple of months ago.

1531
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:15,160
Speaker 5: Only one I've ever seen give as good as she got,

1532
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:19,120
Speaker 5: better than what she got with a nursing child, infant

1533
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:21,920
Speaker 5: newborn at her breast, I might add, I love that

1534
01:20:22,120 --> 01:20:23,439
Speaker 5: for all the women of America.

1535
01:20:24,439 --> 01:20:27,519
Speaker 1: Well, what I was that was actually going to be

1536
01:20:27,640 --> 01:20:29,600
Speaker 1: how I was going to land this plane, which is

1537
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,600
Speaker 1: the Boston Mayor's race. Yeah, and mister Craft, is it

1538
01:20:33,680 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 1: Josh Craft? Josh Craft that's running? It looks like an

1539
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:42,960
Speaker 1: invisible campaign at the moment in that it's a lot

1540
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 1: more advertisements than it is hand to hand campaigning. But

1541
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 1: you tell me you guys are on the ground there.

1542
01:20:51,720 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 2: Well.

1543
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 5: People are mad about the bike lanes in Boston and

1544
01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:57,160
Speaker 5: Michelle Man, that's.

1545
01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:59,679
Speaker 1: Welcome to being mayor of any town. It's a huge

1546
01:21:00,880 --> 01:21:04,400
Speaker 1: I get it where you park space.

1547
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:07,320
Speaker 4: I have been amazed by her.

1548
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:10,960
Speaker 5: She's got a great backstory as a mother with mentionalininess,

1549
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:13,679
Speaker 5: raised her two younger kids, brought them all to Boston,

1550
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:15,960
Speaker 5: the mother and the two younger sisters, while she went

1551
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:19,800
Speaker 5: to Harvard and Harvard Law School. Uh. She, as I said,

1552
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:22,679
Speaker 5: she out smarter them all in Congress. I've not seen

1553
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:26,040
Speaker 5: anybody do as well in one of those gang bangs

1554
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 5: as Michelle Wu did and as I said, a nursing

1555
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:33,000
Speaker 5: mother of three. We've had a chance to interview a

1556
01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:37,160
Speaker 5: lot of politicians in our time, Jim. Is there somebody

1557
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:39,439
Speaker 5: that knows more about the city of Boston as the

1558
01:21:39,479 --> 01:21:43,599
Speaker 5: mayor than Michelle Wuh, she's very impressive. Whether she's going

1559
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:46,160
Speaker 5: to do I think she. I think she will win

1560
01:21:46,439 --> 01:21:49,080
Speaker 5: big again. I could be wrong, but I think I

1561
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 5: think she'll win big again.

1562
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:52,679
Speaker 1: By the way, can you be mayor mumbles anymore and win.

1563
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:57,280
Speaker 2: Well, can I tell you something? They loved him.

1564
01:21:57,320 --> 01:21:57,880
Speaker 1: I know they did.

1565
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:00,559
Speaker 3: There was a level that came out about him and

1566
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:03,960
Speaker 3: a predecessor of his, Ray Flynn, which are two of

1567
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 3: the most amazing pauls ever saw.

1568
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:06,800
Speaker 2: I think the Globe did it.

1569
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,519
Speaker 3: I'm not sure have you ever you have ever met

1570
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:11,599
Speaker 3: the mayor of Boston? And by the way, it didn't

1571
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 3: mean have you been at a rally where he spoke

1572
01:22:14,240 --> 01:22:15,400
Speaker 3: or in an auditorium?

1573
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 2: Have you ever.

1574
01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:18,800
Speaker 3: Met and it was in the high fifties and low

1575
01:22:18,920 --> 01:22:23,479
Speaker 3: sixty percent. Yeah, major American city where people had met

1576
01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:25,519
Speaker 3: Tominino or ray Flynn.

1577
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:28,000
Speaker 2: I mean it's just it is that's become a traditionary wor.

1578
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:31,280
Speaker 1: Old school really old school? Is Mayor wu this way?

1579
01:22:31,360 --> 01:22:33,120
Speaker 1: Does she do the same thing? Do you see her

1580
01:22:33,120 --> 01:22:33,519
Speaker 1: out there.

1581
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:33,960
Speaker 2: The same way?

1582
01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:35,600
Speaker 3: I mean she has a brand new baby, as you

1583
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:37,839
Speaker 3: probably know. As Marty said, she bought the baby to Congress.

1584
01:22:37,840 --> 01:22:39,680
Speaker 3: She often brings the baby to our radio show and

1585
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:43,360
Speaker 3: then hands it off to her husband, who has decided

1586
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:46,560
Speaker 3: to put his career on hold to take care of

1587
01:22:46,560 --> 01:22:50,240
Speaker 3: of the baby for the time being. But yeah, she's

1588
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 3: I think they established this notion. If you're not out there,

1589
01:22:53,960 --> 01:22:56,639
Speaker 3: Marty Walsh, doo, if you're not out there meeting people

1590
01:22:56,800 --> 01:23:00,320
Speaker 3: almost twenty four to seven, this is not the job

1591
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:00,840
Speaker 3: for you.

1592
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:02,400
Speaker 4: So touchcraft. We should give credit.

1593
01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 5: I mean, Josh Kraft ran the Boys and Girls Clubs

1594
01:23:04,320 --> 01:23:07,200
Speaker 5: of Florid for I mean in Boston for years and

1595
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 5: years and years, and we did a great job. I'm

1596
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:11,839
Speaker 5: not sure why he's running at this particular juncture.

1597
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:13,800
Speaker 3: I tell you, I'm laughing. I left him because of

1598
01:23:13,800 --> 01:23:15,519
Speaker 3: this covers that you just mentioned a minute ago. We're

1599
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 3: talking about bikelnes. I love that you said a chuck.

1600
01:23:17,439 --> 01:23:20,080
Speaker 3: You know where do you park? All our listeners mocked

1601
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,000
Speaker 3: me because I made the big mistake when we had

1602
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:25,000
Speaker 3: our first bike line discussion about six months ago, mentioning

1603
01:23:25,160 --> 01:23:27,840
Speaker 3: was my birthday last year and I couldn't. I had

1604
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:29,640
Speaker 3: to get my own cake, which is bad enough to

1605
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 3: begin with, and I couldn't find a space nearby side

1606
01:23:33,120 --> 01:23:35,519
Speaker 3: to walk two blocks to get my own birthday cake.

1607
01:23:35,800 --> 01:23:36,840
Speaker 3: And I will never live.

1608
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:40,200
Speaker 1: Was it raining at the time or snowstorm?

1609
01:23:40,280 --> 01:23:44,439
Speaker 2: Both ways? Actually, and I was boiling unbelievably hot, and

1610
01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,160
Speaker 2: I was snowing. It was uphill. It was hard.

1611
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:52,519
Speaker 1: So is this you know, I do think there's an

1612
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:54,960
Speaker 1: anti incumbent vibe that is nationwide.

1613
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 2: Right.

1614
01:23:55,439 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 1: You saw at Pittsburgh's incumbent mayor lost. We saw that

1615
01:23:58,960 --> 01:24:03,519
Speaker 1: San Francisco's at mayor loss. So I look at these

1616
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:05,920
Speaker 1: things through that national lens. Are we going to see

1617
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:08,040
Speaker 1: more of this? I think it's a terrible time to

1618
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:10,840
Speaker 1: be an incumbent, right, just in general? Definitely, you can

1619
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 1: feel it, right, people are just like you know, I

1620
01:24:13,160 --> 01:24:15,040
Speaker 1: think this is why we've had three one term presidents

1621
01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: in a row. You know, people didn't vote for Trump.

1622
01:24:17,120 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 1: They just voted against, you know, they voted against at

1623
01:24:19,439 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 1: least that final slice of voters did. How concerned should

1624
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:26,320
Speaker 1: she be about that? In Boston? Is that you've sense

1625
01:24:26,400 --> 01:24:26,920
Speaker 1: that feeling?

1626
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:29,559
Speaker 3: In all Jim not as concerned as the other guys

1627
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:32,519
Speaker 3: should be about the fact that his father, fairly or

1628
01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:36,400
Speaker 3: unfairly has a friendship with Donald Trump, and some major

1629
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:40,240
Speaker 3: Donald Trump donors have given a huge pile of money

1630
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:41,439
Speaker 3: to a pack that's sports truck.

1631
01:24:41,560 --> 01:24:43,240
Speaker 1: So she she's gonna be able to turn him into

1632
01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:45,559
Speaker 1: a Trump she'sis or something like that.

1633
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:48,920
Speaker 3: She's trying. And even though he has said I a

1634
01:24:49,040 --> 01:24:55,519
Speaker 3: poor Donald Trump. He has supported members of Congress who

1635
01:24:55,600 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 3: are trumpified and are bailed on every issue except Israel

1636
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:04,720
Speaker 3: and uh choice, anti choice, anti same sex marriage. So

1637
01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 3: I think the answer is a fair unfair. That's I'll

1638
01:25:07,280 --> 01:25:09,400
Speaker 3: leave that up to voters. That's going to be a

1639
01:25:09,640 --> 01:25:12,760
Speaker 3: has been and will be a major thrust the of

1640
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:16,519
Speaker 3: the She often says to at events. He just moved

1641
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:18,719
Speaker 3: here too, from Chesnut Hill, which is right across the

1642
01:25:18,880 --> 01:25:19,320
Speaker 3: thing there.

1643
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:22,760
Speaker 2: Welcome to Boston, Josh. That's funny that that worked well.

1644
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:25,080
Speaker 1: That worked well against Andy Cuomo was like, oh, hey,

1645
01:25:25,120 --> 01:25:26,000
Speaker 1: welcome to New York.

1646
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:29,720
Speaker 5: I know that was It was an amazing That was

1647
01:25:29,720 --> 01:25:31,280
Speaker 5: an amazing race in New York City.

1648
01:25:31,479 --> 01:25:33,760
Speaker 1: So we'll see and it's not over, you know, we

1649
01:25:33,760 --> 01:25:36,120
Speaker 1: we That's say I saw a poll today that you

1650
01:25:36,160 --> 01:25:42,679
Speaker 1: can if there's consolidation behind somebody, there's you can see

1651
01:25:43,160 --> 01:25:46,439
Speaker 1: that Mom, Donnie has a harder ceiling. Yeah, Now the

1652
01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:48,760
Speaker 1: question is is it forty five or is it fifty one?

1653
01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:53,680
Speaker 1: But the ceiling is there and you can see. You know,

1654
01:25:54,080 --> 01:25:56,880
Speaker 1: it was interesting the pole I saw broken up by

1655
01:25:56,880 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 1: Burrow and he's the mayor of Brooklyn today already. You

1656
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:05,600
Speaker 1: know that's not a problem. It's a coin flip in Manhattan,

1657
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:08,760
Speaker 1: and he doesn't win any other borough. So look, you

1658
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,120
Speaker 1: can win it on the strength of Brooklyn and Manhattan alone,

1659
01:26:11,160 --> 01:26:14,120
Speaker 1: So it doesn't matter. But you can see the path

1660
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:17,720
Speaker 1: to stopping mom Donnie if there is, if there is

1661
01:26:17,800 --> 01:26:19,639
Speaker 1: reason to do it, I guess would be the way

1662
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:20,840
Speaker 1: I'd look at it.

1663
01:26:21,080 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 3: I think you for a Cuomo to have a shot,

1664
01:26:23,240 --> 01:26:25,519
Speaker 3: as he has to decide, well, I should accept the

1665
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:29,479
Speaker 3: endorsement of only one sexual harasser, Bill Quinton, not a second.

1666
01:26:29,640 --> 01:26:32,080
Speaker 2: Don't you think there's a there's a ceiling to that?

1667
01:26:32,200 --> 01:26:34,479
Speaker 2: And then yeah.

1668
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:41,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, culture, No, I think I don't understand. And this

1669
01:26:41,680 --> 01:26:45,160
Speaker 1: is where I think Schumer and Jeffries have escaped accountability. Here,

1670
01:26:45,600 --> 01:26:49,160
Speaker 1: your national leaders that live in New York City, you

1671
01:26:49,200 --> 01:26:52,200
Speaker 1: look the other way while everybody rallied around Andrew Cuomo.

1672
01:26:52,320 --> 01:26:54,679
Speaker 1: You want to lead the Democratic Party seriously.

1673
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:58,439
Speaker 3: And also if they endorse Mom donniet or no.

1674
01:26:58,720 --> 01:27:01,240
Speaker 1: No, they haven't. I mean, you know they've They've got

1675
01:27:01,240 --> 01:27:04,040
Speaker 1: this massive problem now that is dividing the Democratic Party.

1676
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:07,599
Speaker 1: I think it'll be healthy in the long run, but

1677
01:27:07,680 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 1: still it is. And you're the the facto leaders of

1678
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:13,880
Speaker 1: the party right now. There's nobody else. You're the Senate leader,

1679
01:27:13,880 --> 01:27:15,920
Speaker 1: and you're the House leader. You're both New York City guys,

1680
01:27:16,120 --> 01:27:18,439
Speaker 1: and you and you. You couldn't find a better candidate

1681
01:27:18,439 --> 01:27:19,599
Speaker 1: than Cuomo. Seriously.

1682
01:27:20,880 --> 01:27:23,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I don't know that they've been that.

1683
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:25,280
Speaker 1: You want to be my late tech salesman.

1684
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:31,559
Speaker 2: Come on. They reached out to Joe Biden, but he

1685
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:32,400
Speaker 2: was unavailable.

1686
01:27:35,640 --> 01:27:38,560
Speaker 1: I can't wait till Biden runs for Wilmington mayor h

1687
01:27:38,880 --> 01:27:41,680
Speaker 1: Beach mayor. I feel like that's coming. I feel like

1688
01:27:41,720 --> 01:27:44,520
Speaker 1: something like that, or Hunter Biden runs for mayor of Wilmington,

1689
01:27:44,880 --> 01:27:47,880
Speaker 1: Like I just you know, something like that's going to

1690
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:51,760
Speaker 1: happen sooner than we think, because you know, you know,

1691
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:56,640
Speaker 1: every every TV series needs a needs an episode like that.

1692
01:27:57,280 --> 01:27:59,960
Speaker 5: Can I ask you a quick question before we leave here, Chuck, yes, ma'am.

1693
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:01,280
Speaker 5: Are we going to get out of this mess?

1694
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:05,800
Speaker 1: Do you think, well everything ends, It's just going to

1695
01:28:05,920 --> 01:28:09,599
Speaker 1: end badly and here's the here let me ask. I'll

1696
01:28:09,680 --> 01:28:12,120
Speaker 1: leave you as this will make my real out question. Okay,

1697
01:28:14,400 --> 01:28:16,920
Speaker 1: I don't think this is a a you know, the

1698
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:19,360
Speaker 1: Trump arrow will come to an end. My guess is

1699
01:28:19,360 --> 01:28:21,640
Speaker 1: it'll be abrupt, and I don't know how right, Like,

1700
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:24,639
Speaker 1: maybe it's a natural disaster, maybe it's an economic collapse,

1701
01:28:24,640 --> 01:28:27,679
Speaker 1: maybe it's something else. It's going to be a mess.

1702
01:28:28,479 --> 01:28:30,640
Speaker 1: There's going to be one of two directions we go

1703
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:33,439
Speaker 1: as a country. We decide, uh, that's never going to

1704
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:35,960
Speaker 1: happen again, and we move on, or we try to

1705
01:28:36,000 --> 01:28:39,680
Speaker 1: Trump proof the Constitution and the government so that we

1706
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:43,439
Speaker 1: don't allow that to happen again. Which direction do you

1707
01:28:43,520 --> 01:28:44,479
Speaker 1: expect us to go?

1708
01:28:45,000 --> 01:28:50,040
Speaker 4: Marjorie, Well, I'm not discouraged.

1709
01:28:50,080 --> 01:28:53,080
Speaker 5: I'm not encouraged by the ability of the Republicans and

1710
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:57,960
Speaker 5: Democrats to agree to to to do something as dramatic

1711
01:28:58,040 --> 01:29:01,400
Speaker 5: as Trump Proof. But maybe if Trump is gone, because

1712
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 5: I don't see a jd. Vance or anybody able to

1713
01:29:04,640 --> 01:29:08,040
Speaker 5: take up that charismatic place he holds for the country,

1714
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:08,960
Speaker 5: maybe then they could.

1715
01:29:09,960 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know. I'd like to think

1716
01:29:12,520 --> 01:29:16,000
Speaker 4: they could do that, but I don't know. I'm sorry,

1717
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:16,800
Speaker 4: I don't have a good answer.

1718
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:19,639
Speaker 3: We want to do something that people love. In talk radio,

1719
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:23,120
Speaker 3: I'm gonna argue both sides very quickly. Well, I don't

1720
01:29:23,160 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 3: think there will ever be another leader who can do

1721
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:28,680
Speaker 3: what Trump does, even though they've tried. Ron Desanta's being

1722
01:29:28,720 --> 01:29:32,599
Speaker 3: a perfect example bismal failure. I think the freedom that

1723
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:36,599
Speaker 3: Trump has given to people to be like him is.

1724
01:29:36,560 --> 01:29:38,479
Speaker 2: Going to be hard to get rid of.

1725
01:29:38,600 --> 01:29:40,880
Speaker 3: I think people find it liberating to be able to

1726
01:29:40,880 --> 01:29:44,639
Speaker 3: say they're worse innermost thoughts and things like that. Having

1727
01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:47,240
Speaker 3: said that, the other side is I'm a huge believer

1728
01:29:47,280 --> 01:29:50,240
Speaker 3: in leadership, and I'm not the first person who said

1729
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:53,439
Speaker 3: if Ronald Reagan had run as a liberal Democrat, he

1730
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:55,440
Speaker 3: would have been elected in a landslide.

1731
01:29:55,880 --> 01:29:59,120
Speaker 2: Leadership really matters in this country. It really matters to me.

1732
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 3: And I think if the people with the right thinking

1733
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:06,480
Speaker 3: approaches find a leader who has charisma, who is youngish,

1734
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:11,920
Speaker 3: who is tough, I think this could end in a

1735
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:14,800
Speaker 3: far better way than I worry that it will. It's

1736
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:16,680
Speaker 3: such a great point. My wife says this all the time.

1737
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:18,559
Speaker 1: She goes, if Joe Biden had been a better leader,

1738
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:21,760
Speaker 1: there would have been no second Trump term. Yeah, and

1739
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:25,880
Speaker 1: it's a fair ethic, it's the fairest critique of it. Look,

1740
01:30:26,040 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 1: it just is true. He just wasn't the leader that

1741
01:30:30,160 --> 01:30:33,240
Speaker 1: was necessary to have us turn the page. Maybe it

1742
01:30:33,280 --> 01:30:35,000
Speaker 1: was due to age, maybe it was due to other things,

1743
01:30:35,040 --> 01:30:38,120
Speaker 1: but he wasn't And that you're right. Leader leadership can

1744
01:30:38,160 --> 01:30:41,000
Speaker 1: overcome a lot of things. If you have good leadership

1745
01:30:41,080 --> 01:30:42,280
Speaker 1: or bad leadership.

1746
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:45,560
Speaker 4: That's what we're looking for. If you are not.

1747
01:30:45,800 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 3: Before we leave, I just say one thing for the

1748
01:30:47,880 --> 01:30:50,679
Speaker 3: record here so people know this. I did not own

1749
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:56,080
Speaker 3: a Volvo station Wagon and I did not have pants.

1750
01:30:56,600 --> 01:30:58,440
Speaker 1: It was probably a suber Uh.

1751
01:30:58,479 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I can't talk about.

1752
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:03,960
Speaker 5: I also called him the heart throb of economics one

1753
01:31:04,000 --> 01:31:04,439
Speaker 5: oh one.

1754
01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:06,600
Speaker 2: That was very complimentary.

1755
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:11,160
Speaker 1: And let me let me uh, Will Bond and Cornheiser

1756
01:31:11,240 --> 01:31:15,240
Speaker 1: actually can socialize like they're off off camera?

1757
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 2: All right?

1758
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:20,439
Speaker 1: How how are you guys able to socialize like off hours?

1759
01:31:21,320 --> 01:31:24,320
Speaker 2: You have enough of friends tonight the road tonight?

1760
01:31:24,720 --> 01:31:26,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, the.

1761
01:31:26,680 --> 01:31:29,800
Speaker 1: Red Sox just make some gnats ass this past Fourth

1762
01:31:29,840 --> 01:31:32,240
Speaker 1: of July weekend beautiful. That was embarrassing, lovely.

1763
01:31:32,360 --> 01:31:34,240
Speaker 2: It was expression made you.

1764
01:31:34,120 --> 01:31:36,200
Speaker 1: Guys look like, gave you guys hope.

1765
01:31:36,880 --> 01:31:37,320
Speaker 2: That's right.

1766
01:31:37,439 --> 01:31:39,320
Speaker 3: Now we're playing the worst team in baseball, right, so

1767
01:31:39,360 --> 01:31:40,919
Speaker 3: it's even more we're very excited.

1768
01:31:41,280 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 1: No, you just played the worst. I thought you just

1769
01:31:43,160 --> 01:31:44,760
Speaker 1: played the worst even baseball? Who is it?

1770
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:48,880
Speaker 2: Tonight? Do you get the rock in Colorado even worse? Yeah?

1771
01:31:47,200 --> 01:31:52,280
Speaker 1: The Gnats have more losses than the Rockies since twenty nineteen,

1772
01:31:52,560 --> 01:31:55,800
Speaker 1: so really, yeah, we've really done well.

1773
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:56,200
Speaker 4: Sausage.

1774
01:31:56,360 --> 01:31:59,000
Speaker 5: Think of those sausage things tonight, the sausage and onions things.

1775
01:31:59,000 --> 01:31:59,720
Speaker 2: That was the fun things.

1776
01:32:00,040 --> 01:32:03,280
Speaker 3: They're bold sausage onions, onion things.

1777
01:32:03,880 --> 01:32:06,439
Speaker 2: I'll have a salsage and onion thing. Please, thank you.

1778
01:32:06,880 --> 01:32:09,679
Speaker 1: Now everybody knows why. This is my favorite half hour

1779
01:32:09,720 --> 01:32:10,920
Speaker 1: that I spend every Thursday with.

1780
01:32:11,120 --> 01:32:16,840
Speaker 2: We love well. Thank you, the guests, the audience, Chuck. Thanks.

1781
01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 1: It's always fun when you get to interview friends and

1782
01:32:29,040 --> 01:32:30,360
Speaker 1: people you just like each other.

1783
01:32:30,720 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 5: Uh.

1784
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:34,360
Speaker 1: So, I hope you enjoyed that conversation. I enjoyed having it,

1785
01:32:34,680 --> 01:32:37,960
Speaker 1: so I hope you enjoyed listening to it. All right,

1786
01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:40,599
Speaker 1: let me do a few questions, and I love it, man,

1787
01:32:40,640 --> 01:32:45,599
Speaker 1: The questions are getting better and better. Feedback's amazing. Uh

1788
01:32:45,640 --> 01:32:47,800
Speaker 1: And I admit I'm getting to the point where we

1789
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:50,360
Speaker 1: may have to do entire episodes that are just as

1790
01:32:50,479 --> 01:32:57,120
Speaker 1: Chuck as Chuck. The real reason is because you want that,

1791
01:32:57,680 --> 01:33:00,559
Speaker 1: You want that sort of that music's kind of familiar,

1792
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:04,160
Speaker 1: but you don't know where it belongs. That's the trick, right,

1793
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:07,439
Speaker 1: All right, let's start with this, this comes from Grants.

1794
01:33:08,960 --> 01:33:12,760
Speaker 1: It looks like he's writing from Alabama, and he writes,

1795
01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:15,679
Speaker 1: Chuck love the pod, especially the longer episodes. Well, all right,

1796
01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:20,400
Speaker 1: the roganification of podcasts are here. Don't do any podcasts

1797
01:33:20,439 --> 01:33:22,439
Speaker 1: under an hour and a half, right anyway? I tease.

1798
01:33:23,560 --> 01:33:25,880
Speaker 1: He continues, great insights and analysis. I wanted to bounce

1799
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:27,479
Speaker 1: something off of you. Have you noticed how the left

1800
01:33:27,479 --> 01:33:29,400
Speaker 1: and right seem to have switched places when it comes

1801
01:33:29,439 --> 01:33:32,240
Speaker 1: to cultural orthodoxy? He goes, when I moved to d

1802
01:33:32,360 --> 01:33:35,600
Speaker 1: C from Alabama, I felt judged by moderate dem staffers

1803
01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:38,639
Speaker 1: for things like smoking, but my GOP and libertarian friends

1804
01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:41,519
Speaker 1: never cared. Is this hall monitor vibe a bigger challenge

1805
01:33:41,520 --> 01:33:44,559
Speaker 1: for the Democratic Party? And can they shed it? Would

1806
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:50,000
Speaker 1: love to hear your thoughts. You're right, I especially sort

1807
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 1: of Southern Democrats, right, you know, you know, I'll give

1808
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:56,840
Speaker 1: you another one. It's not as common, right for a

1809
01:33:56,960 --> 01:34:01,280
Speaker 1: Democrat in d C to bechure going, and yet it's

1810
01:34:01,360 --> 01:34:03,920
Speaker 1: quite common in the South for everybody to be church going.

1811
01:34:04,320 --> 01:34:06,519
Speaker 1: So I think you're not wrong that there's a little

1812
01:34:06,520 --> 01:34:09,240
Speaker 1: bit of that going on. But let me flip the

1813
01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:12,400
Speaker 1: script here. You know where I thought you were going

1814
01:34:12,439 --> 01:34:16,040
Speaker 1: at first had to do with the nanny state, and

1815
01:34:16,080 --> 01:34:18,240
Speaker 1: I sort of more focused on sort of the bizarre,

1816
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:23,920
Speaker 1: sort of the bizarreness, if you will. It's not really

1817
01:34:23,960 --> 01:34:27,519
Speaker 1: that bizarre anymore of Kennedy, at least on the right

1818
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:31,040
Speaker 1: when it comes to that, which is you know, ten

1819
01:34:31,120 --> 01:34:33,320
Speaker 1: years ago, when Michael Bloomberg was trying to get rid

1820
01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:36,799
Speaker 1: of the big gulp, the right went crazy. Sarah Palin

1821
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:39,720
Speaker 1: came out and gave speeches with a big gulp as

1822
01:34:39,760 --> 01:34:42,320
Speaker 1: a prop. You know, it was their way of going

1823
01:34:42,360 --> 01:34:44,680
Speaker 1: after the crazy left. You know, I don't know if

1824
01:34:44,680 --> 01:34:47,640
Speaker 1: we were calling it woke then. Right now, who's the

1825
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:49,920
Speaker 1: one trying to get rid of sweets and trying to

1826
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:52,200
Speaker 1: get rid of you know, trying to decide, no, you

1827
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:54,639
Speaker 1: shouldn't eat this and you shouldn't eat that. Right, it's

1828
01:34:54,680 --> 01:35:00,560
Speaker 1: suddenly the right. So I do think these things go cyclical.

1829
01:35:00,640 --> 01:35:02,760
Speaker 1: You know, I'll give you another thing. Right, it was

1830
01:35:02,800 --> 01:35:09,320
Speaker 1: more likely you'd see a Democrat, a Democratic voter or candidate,

1831
01:35:09,640 --> 01:35:11,439
Speaker 1: would you know, if you saw somebody with more than

1832
01:35:11,439 --> 01:35:14,920
Speaker 1: one tattoo, you would assume they were their politics were

1833
01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:16,920
Speaker 1: on the left. Now these days, if you see somebody

1834
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:19,679
Speaker 1: with more than one tattoo, you might assume their politics

1835
01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:22,519
Speaker 1: is on the right. So I do think some of

1836
01:35:22,520 --> 01:35:25,439
Speaker 1: this thing can be generational or subgenerational, and we don't

1837
01:35:25,479 --> 01:35:30,160
Speaker 1: see it. I do think I'm smoking. There's a few

1838
01:35:30,200 --> 01:35:35,240
Speaker 1: things smoking. Maybe I would have said three or four

1839
01:35:35,320 --> 01:35:40,679
Speaker 1: years ago, tackle football, where if you were on the left,

1840
01:35:40,720 --> 01:35:43,719
Speaker 1: you might get judged by your friends on the left

1841
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:46,960
Speaker 1: on some of these things. So look, I do think

1842
01:35:47,040 --> 01:35:50,080
Speaker 1: one of the core problems, and I've said this, is

1843
01:35:50,120 --> 01:35:54,040
Speaker 1: that if there is a basic sort of one line

1844
01:35:54,040 --> 01:35:58,320
Speaker 1: descriptor problem that the Democrats have is that the Democrats

1845
01:35:58,360 --> 01:36:00,680
Speaker 1: seem to be always wanting to tell you how to

1846
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:03,160
Speaker 1: live your life, where Republicans are trying to agree with

1847
01:36:03,600 --> 01:36:06,240
Speaker 1: are always going out of their way to agree with

1848
01:36:06,320 --> 01:36:07,920
Speaker 1: your grievance about life.

1849
01:36:08,160 --> 01:36:08,439
Speaker 2: Right.

1850
01:36:10,439 --> 01:36:13,439
Speaker 1: You know, it's sort of the idea that in general,

1851
01:36:13,479 --> 01:36:16,320
Speaker 1: Democrats are telling you, well you no, no, no, no,

1852
01:36:16,880 --> 01:36:19,040
Speaker 1: that isn't the most important issue. This is really the

1853
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:21,200
Speaker 1: most important issue, versus the Republicans are saying, oh, you

1854
01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:23,760
Speaker 1: think that's the most important, okay, Right, They go out

1855
01:36:23,800 --> 01:36:25,360
Speaker 1: of their way to try to agree with the voters.

1856
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 1: Democrats go out of their way to try to tell voters,

1857
01:36:28,640 --> 01:36:30,400
Speaker 1: you know, no, no, no, you should think about it

1858
01:36:30,439 --> 01:36:34,080
Speaker 1: this way. So, yes, I think there's I think this

1859
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:38,040
Speaker 1: what you've hit on something. I don't think it's as clean,

1860
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:41,519
Speaker 1: quite as clean as you've gotten it. But but I

1861
01:36:41,560 --> 01:36:43,320
Speaker 1: know exactly what you mean, and I think it is

1862
01:36:43,360 --> 01:36:47,120
Speaker 1: a there is a slight. It does feel as if

1863
01:36:47,360 --> 01:36:50,519
Speaker 1: you're somehow. When I was growing up, it was the

1864
01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:53,400
Speaker 1: Republicans that were the judge Party. Now it feels like

1865
01:36:53,439 --> 01:36:56,479
Speaker 1: it's the Democrats of the judging Party. If we wanted

1866
01:36:56,520 --> 01:36:58,760
Speaker 1: to be simplistic about it, and it's and it's something

1867
01:36:58,800 --> 01:36:59,400
Speaker 1: they have to shed.

1868
01:36:59,560 --> 01:37:00,360
Speaker 2: I know it.

1869
01:37:01,360 --> 01:37:05,120
Speaker 1: Here's a good question for a local government administrator from Peoria, Illinois.

1870
01:37:05,520 --> 01:37:09,599
Speaker 1: How's it playing in Peoria? An old phrase for an

1871
01:37:09,600 --> 01:37:12,760
Speaker 1: older set, Chuck. I make a genuine effort to source

1872
01:37:12,760 --> 01:37:15,040
Speaker 1: my news from multiple perspectives, and the Check podcast has

1873
01:37:15,040 --> 01:37:16,639
Speaker 1: been one of my sources for a long time. Today,

1874
01:37:16,680 --> 01:37:20,040
Speaker 1: I have two mostly unrelated questions. First, every empire rises

1875
01:37:20,040 --> 01:37:21,800
Speaker 1: and falls. Are we currently living through the fall of

1876
01:37:21,840 --> 01:37:24,560
Speaker 1: the American Empire? Second, as a timestamp, I'm listening to

1877
01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:27,280
Speaker 1: your interview with Ian Bremner. Bremmer, what do you think

1878
01:37:27,280 --> 01:37:30,040
Speaker 1: it would actually take for the magabase to abandon trump Ism,

1879
01:37:30,040 --> 01:37:32,559
Speaker 1: not necessarily Trump himself given out strong echo chambers, or

1880
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:35,040
Speaker 1: for both parties. Hope you find either or both of

1881
01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:37,920
Speaker 1: these worth tackling on a future pod. Happy Independence Day,

1882
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:41,840
Speaker 1: Scott Sorow Scott, I appreciate the question, and I guess

1883
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:48,000
Speaker 1: I would tackle it. You know, the last people to

1884
01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:49,880
Speaker 1: know when an empire falls are those that are part

1885
01:37:49,880 --> 01:37:58,960
Speaker 1: of the empire. Right, I'm I'm way back in my

1886
01:37:59,080 --> 01:38:02,760
Speaker 1: previous life when I was working at National Journal and

1887
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:07,920
Speaker 1: also working a bit with The Atlantic. They and an

1888
01:38:08,040 --> 01:38:13,000
Speaker 1: editor there who wrote a book that was titled Are

1889
01:38:13,120 --> 01:38:16,360
Speaker 1: We Rome? And I think it came out in twenty ten, Right,

1890
01:38:16,520 --> 01:38:19,200
Speaker 1: so you're talking, you know, here we are fifteen years later,

1891
01:38:20,400 --> 01:38:23,639
Speaker 1: And for what it's worth, I feel like about every

1892
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:27,519
Speaker 1: fifteen or twenty years, this concept of hey, you know,

1893
01:38:27,640 --> 01:38:29,559
Speaker 1: are we in the late stages of something? Is this

1894
01:38:29,720 --> 01:38:32,679
Speaker 1: like late stage Roman empires collapse, et cetera, et cetera.

1895
01:38:34,840 --> 01:38:37,400
Speaker 1: And you know, I think it's fair to say that

1896
01:38:37,720 --> 01:38:42,000
Speaker 1: a fall of a country politics or constitution, or however

1897
01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:45,280
Speaker 1: you would call the fall of the American Empire, it's

1898
01:38:45,439 --> 01:38:48,320
Speaker 1: going to feel I'm sure it would feel the same way,

1899
01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:51,559
Speaker 1: just like the metaphor about bankruptcy. Right first it happened slowly,

1900
01:38:51,600 --> 01:38:54,519
Speaker 1: then quickly, right all of a sudden, it's gone. Right,

1901
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:58,000
Speaker 1: And we've seen that when the fall of leaders, right Assad,

1902
01:38:58,240 --> 01:39:01,240
Speaker 1: when Assad fell, whoa we all I think eventually we

1903
01:39:01,240 --> 01:39:04,000
Speaker 1: all thought eventually Aside's going to fall, but nobody knew

1904
01:39:04,000 --> 01:39:05,679
Speaker 1: when it was going to happen. And then when it happened,

1905
01:39:05,720 --> 01:39:09,040
Speaker 1: it just happened. It was like gone overnight. Now he's

1906
01:39:09,080 --> 01:39:13,200
Speaker 1: shopping at Russian grocery stores. So you know, it is

1907
01:39:13,240 --> 01:39:19,920
Speaker 1: one of those things that that I think that I

1908
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:23,639
Speaker 1: think the better way to look at it is if

1909
01:39:23,640 --> 01:39:25,880
Speaker 1: we're not careful, we could end up on the path

1910
01:39:26,200 --> 01:39:29,720
Speaker 1: and we could see the fall of the great democratic experiment.

1911
01:39:29,840 --> 01:39:30,040
Speaker 2: Right.

1912
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:34,439
Speaker 1: The challenge to capitalism is that if we don't figure

1913
01:39:34,439 --> 01:39:38,799
Speaker 1: out how to reform capitalism in a way that feels

1914
01:39:38,840 --> 01:39:42,920
Speaker 1: that everybody's got a shot. If people feel as if

1915
01:39:43,120 --> 01:39:48,080
Speaker 1: they don't have access to the American dream, the country's

1916
01:39:48,120 --> 01:39:51,559
Speaker 1: politics is going to collapse. It just is because it's

1917
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:54,200
Speaker 1: when people feel like they don't have an ability to

1918
01:39:54,200 --> 01:39:56,840
Speaker 1: make a living, they don't have an ability to better

1919
01:39:56,880 --> 01:40:00,680
Speaker 1: their lives on their own, that's when governments fall. That's

1920
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:05,800
Speaker 1: when revolutions happen, that's when you're able to gather people up.

1921
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:10,680
Speaker 1: So if you look at it through that prism, right,

1922
01:40:10,720 --> 01:40:12,240
Speaker 1: if you look at it to see you know, how

1923
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:14,800
Speaker 1: did Venezuelan fall? How did Turkey fall? If you will,

1924
01:40:16,680 --> 01:40:19,040
Speaker 1: there are few things that concern me. I think our

1925
01:40:19,120 --> 01:40:24,240
Speaker 1: rural urban divide is is UH is very makes us

1926
01:40:24,360 --> 01:40:29,360
Speaker 1: very vulnerable to a collapse because when you look at

1927
01:40:29,400 --> 01:40:35,639
Speaker 1: what happened to Venezuela, it was an authoritarian taking advantage

1928
01:40:35,680 --> 01:40:39,479
Speaker 1: of poor, of the rural poor and pitting them against

1929
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:44,840
Speaker 1: the UH. The elites of Caracas. Airdwan got to power

1930
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:48,719
Speaker 1: using both religion and and and resentment at the elites

1931
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:52,639
Speaker 1: in Istumbul. You know his weakest is you know he's

1932
01:40:52,640 --> 01:40:56,040
Speaker 1: weakest in Istumbul because that's where the money people live.

1933
01:40:56,080 --> 01:40:58,200
Speaker 1: That's where the elites live. That's where they're basically the

1934
01:40:58,240 --> 01:41:01,880
Speaker 1: pro Democrat, pro small deed to myocracy folks live. So

1935
01:41:03,200 --> 01:41:10,519
Speaker 1: the the fact that that there is a monolithic political

1936
01:41:10,560 --> 01:41:13,559
Speaker 1: identity in rural America, I think is potentially dangerous for us.

1937
01:41:14,120 --> 01:41:16,120
Speaker 1: And it's why the Democratic Party has to find a

1938
01:41:16,120 --> 01:41:20,920
Speaker 1: way back into because that's where the seeds of this

1939
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:24,759
Speaker 1: could could get worse. So I'm you know, I would

1940
01:41:25,600 --> 01:41:29,000
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put this as a flashing red light, but

1941
01:41:29,080 --> 01:41:31,680
Speaker 1: it's it's one of those if if we continue to

1942
01:41:31,720 --> 01:41:35,320
Speaker 1: make bad decisions over the next decade or so, then yeah,

1943
01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:38,200
Speaker 1: we may look back and say, oh, it's late stages

1944
01:41:38,280 --> 01:41:42,000
Speaker 1: of of the fall of the American Empire. But I

1945
01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:45,240
Speaker 1: choose to be optimistic. I choose to believe that We've

1946
01:41:45,280 --> 01:41:51,599
Speaker 1: had these near misses before, Mcarthyism, isolationism, a civil war,

1947
01:41:54,200 --> 01:41:57,360
Speaker 1: and we and we got through it. We're in one

1948
01:41:57,400 --> 01:42:00,360
Speaker 1: of those moments. We're going to get through it. Why

1949
01:42:00,360 --> 01:42:02,600
Speaker 1: do I believe that? Because why do I want to

1950
01:42:02,640 --> 01:42:05,639
Speaker 1: believe the alternative? Ask for your second question, what would

1951
01:42:05,640 --> 01:42:13,840
Speaker 1: get mega? Well, what brought the isolationists sort of what

1952
01:42:13,960 --> 01:42:19,160
Speaker 1: brought the isolationists back to the mainstream in the nineteen thirties,

1953
01:42:19,960 --> 01:42:22,640
Speaker 1: Pearl Harbor. So you're asking what would it take to

1954
01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:27,599
Speaker 1: sort of for the MAGA world to essentially abandon trump Ism.

1955
01:42:27,640 --> 01:42:32,080
Speaker 1: I think it's two things. One if trumpsm harms their livelihood.

1956
01:42:32,360 --> 01:42:35,479
Speaker 1: So I think the terror for the trade wars makes

1957
01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:38,960
Speaker 1: it very vulnerable when it doesn't work, and I just

1958
01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:41,280
Speaker 1: don't think it's going to work. But I'm you know,

1959
01:42:41,840 --> 01:42:43,559
Speaker 1: I'm going to be sitting here watching with the rest

1960
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:47,920
Speaker 1: of you when it fails. The people that are going

1961
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:50,839
Speaker 1: to get harmed the most are is that mega coalition. Particularly,

1962
01:42:50,880 --> 01:42:53,280
Speaker 1: like I said, rural farmers, those in the agricultural sector

1963
01:42:54,080 --> 01:42:58,160
Speaker 1: are going to get hit the hardest. That could be

1964
01:42:58,200 --> 01:43:01,599
Speaker 1: one thing. But the isolation it's back was, you know,

1965
01:43:01,720 --> 01:43:08,120
Speaker 1: an attack on Americans themselves. So you know, I have

1966
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:11,240
Speaker 1: one of my theories as to why we're so polarized

1967
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:14,200
Speaker 1: today is we don't have the Cold Wars as a

1968
01:43:14,200 --> 01:43:17,160
Speaker 1: as a way to sort of keep people from going

1969
01:43:17,200 --> 01:43:20,799
Speaker 1: to their political fringes, right, the threat of war with Russia,

1970
01:43:20,920 --> 01:43:24,840
Speaker 1: nuclear war, fear of that the Cold War kept the

1971
01:43:24,920 --> 01:43:30,280
Speaker 1: fringes in the fringe, and party leadership left and right

1972
01:43:30,640 --> 01:43:33,760
Speaker 1: did their best to sort of right. There was an

1973
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:36,840
Speaker 1: agreement who the enemy was. There was a disagreement on

1974
01:43:36,880 --> 01:43:41,320
Speaker 1: how to confront the enemy, but that was the divide. So,

1975
01:43:42,760 --> 01:43:44,080
Speaker 1: I mean, those would be the two ways that I

1976
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:48,479
Speaker 1: could envision Maga leaving Trump is and these folks leaving

1977
01:43:48,479 --> 01:43:51,360
Speaker 1: Trump is. I'm gonna take one more question here and

1978
01:43:51,400 --> 01:43:54,960
Speaker 1: then wrap it up for the for the day. This

1979
01:43:55,040 --> 01:43:57,920
Speaker 1: comes from Micah Chuck You've talked extensively about the need

1980
01:43:58,000 --> 01:44:01,080
Speaker 1: for more options for political parties in the States. Yes,

1981
01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:03,280
Speaker 1: I just did it again. To the biggest factors of

1982
01:44:03,320 --> 01:44:05,639
Speaker 1: poor performance in the pastor money and personality. If Must

1983
01:44:05,680 --> 01:44:08,519
Speaker 1: launches this America Party, it seems like those two factors

1984
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:10,800
Speaker 1: are less of a problem. Obviously, he's very polarizing, and

1985
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:12,919
Speaker 1: while I myself do not agree with most of his ideas,

1986
01:44:13,200 --> 01:44:15,360
Speaker 1: I am intrigued by the possibility that he could actually

1987
01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:17,960
Speaker 1: rupture the two party system. He stated that his strategy

1988
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:19,439
Speaker 1: would focus on a few seats in the House in

1989
01:44:19,479 --> 01:44:21,759
Speaker 1: the Senate. Which states do you think he would focus

1990
01:44:21,800 --> 01:44:24,400
Speaker 1: on traditional swing states or red leaning libertarian es states?

1991
01:44:24,600 --> 01:44:26,200
Speaker 1: And if he were to run for Senate in Texas

1992
01:44:26,280 --> 01:44:28,719
Speaker 1: right now, could the combination of him and Paxton running

1993
01:44:28,720 --> 01:44:31,320
Speaker 1: as the Republican be enough to give Democrats an even

1994
01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:35,200
Speaker 1: greater fighting chance? Thanks Micah, Well, obviously, here I am

1995
01:44:35,240 --> 01:44:38,360
Speaker 1: answering your question after I've given you the beginning of

1996
01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:46,120
Speaker 1: this podcast my guide the states I would advise Must

1997
01:44:46,160 --> 01:44:49,599
Speaker 1: to go through. And you add an important point, which

1998
01:44:49,640 --> 01:44:52,200
Speaker 1: is Musk has Texas business ties. Right He's building his

1999
01:44:52,240 --> 01:44:56,080
Speaker 1: own compound in Austin for all of his children, to

2000
01:44:56,120 --> 01:44:57,880
Speaker 1: potentially live in. I don't think all of the mothers

2001
01:44:57,880 --> 01:45:00,680
Speaker 1: of his children have decided they're comfortable living together in

2002
01:45:00,720 --> 01:45:03,360
Speaker 1: a compound in Austin. But he's building one there and

2003
01:45:03,400 --> 01:45:06,720
Speaker 1: hopeful for that he's trying to start. He's incorporated his

2004
01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:10,120
Speaker 1: own city. We know that as well, with SpaceX there.

2005
01:45:12,160 --> 01:45:14,479
Speaker 1: But no, I don't think Musk himself should run ask

2006
01:45:14,800 --> 01:45:17,200
Speaker 1: You know, Henry Ford once ran for US any lost

2007
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:22,320
Speaker 1: primarily because he was exposed as an anti semi But

2008
01:45:23,600 --> 01:45:28,280
Speaker 1: you know, the rich people that fund their own campaigns.

2009
01:45:28,280 --> 01:45:30,840
Speaker 1: And I put that caveat on there because Donald Trump's

2010
01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:32,719
Speaker 1: a rich person who did not fund his own campaign.

2011
01:45:33,120 --> 01:45:35,240
Speaker 1: But rich people that fund their own campaigns usually make

2012
01:45:35,320 --> 01:45:38,320
Speaker 1: terrible candidates because they think about everything through the prism

2013
01:45:38,360 --> 01:45:40,120
Speaker 1: of their own. You know, this is theirs, they own it,

2014
01:45:40,200 --> 01:45:45,080
Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. So I continue to believe the

2015
01:45:45,120 --> 01:45:48,439
Speaker 1: best way Musk can help break up the two parties

2016
01:45:48,920 --> 01:45:54,080
Speaker 1: is if he writes the checks and sort of handles

2017
01:45:54,120 --> 01:45:56,320
Speaker 1: it the way he handles SpaceX, which is he lets

2018
01:45:56,360 --> 01:45:58,880
Speaker 1: competent people run the day to day parts of the company,

2019
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:01,760
Speaker 1: and he plays dreamer. He plays pie in the sky guy,

2020
01:46:01,840 --> 01:46:06,400
Speaker 1: and he plays funder. If that's what he is, maybe

2021
01:46:06,400 --> 01:46:09,280
Speaker 1: there's a there's a possibility there. The problem is must personality.

2022
01:46:09,320 --> 01:46:12,240
Speaker 1: You can just see totally blowing this thing up and

2023
01:46:12,320 --> 01:46:14,960
Speaker 1: becoming too definitional to the party. And then it's what's

2024
01:46:15,000 --> 01:46:17,280
Speaker 1: going to scare people. I mean, I think, you know,

2025
01:46:17,479 --> 01:46:21,719
Speaker 1: I think in all these places, you know, the minute

2026
01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:24,960
Speaker 1: you introduce a third candidate that gets over five percent

2027
01:46:25,000 --> 01:46:27,720
Speaker 1: of the vote, you scramble all of the coalitions and

2028
01:46:27,840 --> 01:46:31,479
Speaker 1: it opens the door for all sorts of outcomes that

2029
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:35,760
Speaker 1: are unexpected. So in theory what you just described, yes,

2030
01:46:35,880 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 1: Musk and Packston, Yeah, two very unlikable people. I do

2031
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:42,479
Speaker 1: think that opens the door. But I think if it's

2032
01:46:42,520 --> 01:46:44,920
Speaker 1: Corn and Packxton and already I'd put my money on

2033
01:46:44,960 --> 01:46:47,320
Speaker 1: corn and to win that three way race. And the

2034
01:46:47,400 --> 01:46:49,599
Speaker 1: question is do you want what is the goal?

2035
01:46:49,880 --> 01:46:50,120
Speaker 2: Right?

2036
01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:52,960
Speaker 1: Is the goal to elect more of the of the

2037
01:46:53,000 --> 01:46:57,040
Speaker 1: other party or is the goal to create a fulkroum

2038
01:46:57,040 --> 01:47:00,280
Speaker 1: of folks who can sort of decide which side, sort

2039
01:47:00,320 --> 01:47:02,960
Speaker 1: of the way that the the lib Dems had been

2040
01:47:02,960 --> 01:47:04,880
Speaker 1: in the UK, right they were sort of the third

2041
01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:07,120
Speaker 1: partyment would they work with conservatives? Would they work with

2042
01:47:07,200 --> 01:47:11,639
Speaker 1: labor who needs the numbers? You know, maybe that the

2043
01:47:11,640 --> 01:47:14,400
Speaker 1: Tories will become that party, that they'll be the third party.

2044
01:47:14,439 --> 01:47:17,400
Speaker 1: Do they end up? You know, it'll be interesting. Would

2045
01:47:17,439 --> 01:47:21,240
Speaker 1: Tories team up with the with Labor in order to

2046
01:47:21,240 --> 01:47:24,920
Speaker 1: stop Nigel Ferrage and the Reform Party?

2047
01:47:25,000 --> 01:47:25,400
Speaker 2: Right? You know?

2048
01:47:25,720 --> 01:47:28,240
Speaker 1: So the point is, the minute you open the door

2049
01:47:28,280 --> 01:47:30,000
Speaker 1: to a third and a fourth party, I think you

2050
01:47:30,040 --> 01:47:32,880
Speaker 1: opened the door to all sorts of potential outcomes that

2051
01:47:32,960 --> 01:47:37,080
Speaker 1: are unpredictable because we've not had many you know, we

2052
01:47:37,120 --> 01:47:39,760
Speaker 1: don't have enough instances to know exactly we to sit

2053
01:47:39,800 --> 01:47:41,880
Speaker 1: here and tell you for certainty which way things would go.

2054
01:47:42,760 --> 01:47:45,360
Speaker 1: But again I go back to what would be healthier

2055
01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:47,479
Speaker 1: for the democracy more choices?

2056
01:47:47,800 --> 01:47:47,960
Speaker 2: Right?

2057
01:47:49,360 --> 01:47:51,599
Speaker 1: Are you comfortable shopping at a store if you were

2058
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:53,519
Speaker 1: trying to buy a shirt and all they offered was

2059
01:47:53,760 --> 01:47:55,080
Speaker 1: small and extra large?

2060
01:47:55,760 --> 01:47:55,960
Speaker 2: Right?

2061
01:47:56,280 --> 01:48:00,200
Speaker 1: And that's all we seem to to give the only

2062
01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:02,240
Speaker 1: two options we get the voters when people would like

2063
01:48:03,160 --> 01:48:04,920
Speaker 1: do they have extra small, do they have extra large?

2064
01:48:05,040 --> 01:48:06,880
Speaker 1: They have medium? Do they have sh medium? Do they

2065
01:48:06,880 --> 01:48:10,559
Speaker 1: have medium large. I'm not saying we need seven new parties,

2066
01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:15,960
Speaker 1: but a more robust Libertarian party would be an interesting

2067
01:48:16,120 --> 01:48:19,479
Speaker 1: check on the Republicans, and a more robust Forward Party

2068
01:48:19,479 --> 01:48:22,719
Speaker 1: could be an interesting check on the Democrats. So there,

2069
01:48:24,120 --> 01:48:27,640
Speaker 1: all right, I think I'm going to call it an episode.

2070
01:48:27,680 --> 01:48:27,880
Speaker 2: There.

2071
01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:32,200
Speaker 1: Appreciate you listening, Thanks for sticking with me spending time.

2072
01:48:32,479 --> 01:48:35,000
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed the listen, give me that five star

2073
01:48:35,040 --> 01:48:37,839
Speaker 1: review wherever you want to do it, Tell your friends

2074
01:48:38,000 --> 01:48:40,360
Speaker 1: like and subscribe. By the way, have a sub stack,

2075
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:43,920
Speaker 1: so please go over there and subscribe to that. I

2076
01:48:44,000 --> 01:48:48,960
Speaker 1: post every Tuesday, and I have a more detailed guide

2077
01:48:49,160 --> 01:48:53,439
Speaker 1: to how and where a third party candidates could really

2078
01:48:53,520 --> 01:48:56,360
Speaker 1: which states would it make the most sense to target

2079
01:48:56,360 --> 01:48:58,639
Speaker 1: if you were Elon Musk, So you will enjoy that.

2080
01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:00,599
Speaker 2: We got.

2081
01:49:01,520 --> 01:49:05,120
Speaker 1: I'll have a new episode on the new Sphere app

2082
01:49:05,160 --> 01:49:08,720
Speaker 1: coming up this Sunday with Rom Emmanuel, so be sure

2083
01:49:08,760 --> 01:49:10,760
Speaker 1: to check that out as well. If you haven't had

2084
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:12,400
Speaker 1: your free try to go grab it so that you

2085
01:49:12,439 --> 01:49:16,680
Speaker 1: can catch that episode in full. And with that, I'll

2086
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:18,160
Speaker 1: see you the next time we upload this